If Cavs could have either Love or Kyrie back.

[Nash]

Who do you think would help most at this point going forward?

I would pick Love, Lebron can take care of the PG duties, while Delly can play well against Curry.
Love on the other hand would bring them rebounding, spacing, another option at front court and some more skill on their front court. They are actually using James Jones as his replacement right now.

[Genaro]

Love. Bring Kyrie back could downgrade their defense on Curry.
Love would do bad for the offense as well but it would be more on a help basis. Keep Curry in check is the main reason Cavs aren't down 3x1.

[IMObjective]

I say kyrie, they really need a second playmaker.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Kyrie. They have two decent big men already and Kyrie can handle some of the PG responsibilities.

[ShackEelOKneel]

Kyrie, but have him split time with Delly.

[nzahir]

I really think kyrie; better defender, another playmaker, can get lebron the ball inside and possibly the emergence of TT.

But love is also very important and should be used more in offense, especially in the paint.

[I<3NBA]

Kyrie plays better with Lebron.

[bobopenguin]

i say have both of them, cos once warriors win at the end, lebron stan can shut it up once and for all.

[Andrei89]

i say have both of them, cos once warriors win at the end, lebron stan can shut it up once and for all.


Who are we kidding here, Warriors would not have won this with Love and Kyrie healthy

[bobopenguin]

Who are we kidding here, Warriors would not have won this with Love and Kyrie healthy

so i guess then this healthy Cavs team is true GOAT team?

[Andrei89]

so i guess then this healthy Cavs team is true GOAT team?


Of course it is not. But neither is the Warriors team. They got exposed when they could not handle physicality and Cavs almost went up 3-0

The first three games were as close as possible because the Cavs had energy. In game 4, they finally won by a good margin because the Cavs showed they were truly gassed, playing a small rotation with a lot of players injured.

[RedBlackAttack]

I thought Kyrie pretty clearly established himself as the better basketball player this season. That isn't to say Love isn't really f#cking good, because he is, but a healthy Kyrie would be a huge problem for this Warriors team, especially the way they are currently playing.

Without Bogut out there and as small as they currently are, Kyrie would be carving them up and he'd be doing so without a defensive presence at the rim. He would be getting to the basket at will, tossing in those sweet little pull-ups and knocking down 3s at a pace matched only by Curry/Thompson.

Defensively, when he is healthy, he is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be. Hell, even at maybe 80%, he swatted Curry twice including one that saved the game and gave us a chance to win... and he had 4 steals. His line was 23/7/6/4/2 playing on basically one leg in Game 1.

He'd force Curry to work so much harder on the defensive end instead of resting which he is currently doing, which would also impact his offensive effectiveness. In fact, in Game 1, they had to take Curry off of (an injured) Kyrie because he was getting beaten so often.

LeBron and Kyrie make for a lethal 1-2 combination and that would also save Delly to go 100% all out when he is on the floor (which would still have been quite a bit).

With that being said, Love would have helped out exponentially too.

[VengefulAngel]

I thought Kyrie pretty clearly established himself as the better basketball player this season. That isn't to say Love isn't really f#cking good, because he is, but a healthy Kyrie would be a huge problem for this Warriors team, especially the way they are currently playing.

Without Bogut out there and as small as they currently are, Kyrie would be carving them up and he'd be doing so without a defensive presence at the rim. He would be getting to the basket at will, tossing in those sweet little pull-ups and knocking down 3s at a pace matched only by Curry/Thompson.

Defensively, when he is healthy, he is not nearly as bad as people make him out to be. Hell, even at maybe 80%, he swatted Curry twice including one that saved the game and gave us a chance to win... and he had 4 steals. His line was 23/7/6/4/2 playing on basically one leg in Game 1.

He'd force Curry to work so much harder on the defensive end instead of resting which he is currently doing, which would also impact his offensive effectiveness. In fact, in Game 1, they had to take Curry off of (an injured) Kyrie because he was getting beaten so often.

LeBron and Kyrie make for a lethal 1-2 combination and that would also save Delly to go 100% all out when he is on the floor (which would still have been quite a bit).

With that being said, Love would have helped out exponentially too.

That is the key, Kyrie is such an offensive threat, that his presence will yield far more gaps for Lebron to attack.

[dick tracy]

Who do you think would help most at this point going forward?

I would pick Love, Lebron can take care of the PG duties, while Delly can play well against Curry.
Love on the other hand would bring them rebounding, spacing, another option at front court and some more skill on their front court. They are actually using James Jones as his replacement right now.

Thompson is a better rebounder
and plays defense he block shots,
love would make them worse
and irving makes them run too much

there better without both if the game slows down:coleman:

[RedBlackAttack]

and irving makes them run too much
Where does this come from? :oldlol:

Kyrie loves to slow it down, run clock and play in isolation, which is what they are currently doing. He was ranked second in the league in efficiency in isolation this year behind only James Harden, and he didn't do it by drawing fouls. He has really mastered getting to his spots on the floor any time he wants, especially late in the shot clock when other options have been abandoned.

You put a guy like that who is also an elite spot-up shooter on the floor with LeBron James and there is no need to "run."

[dick tracy]

Where does this come from? :oldlol:

Kyrie loves to slow it down, run clock and play in isolation, which is what they are currently doing. He was ranked second in the league in efficiency in isolation this year behind only James Harden, and he didn't do it by drawing fouls. He has really mastered getting to his spots on the floor any time he wants, especially late in the shot clock when other options have been abandoned.

You put a guy like that who is also an elite spot-up shooter on the floor with LeBron James and there is no need to "run."

della slows thing down and plays d

irving like to run and only score

if the win the next two games with della
I would trade irving:lebroncry:

[highwhey]

I just want lebron to win again so they can make another meme where transforms to super saiyan 4. In his last 2 wins he turns to ss1 then ss3, he can do it.

[RedBlackAttack]

della slows thing down and plays d

irving like to run and only score

if the win the next two games with della
I would trade irving:lebroncry:
Delly is slow. There's a difference. :oldlol:

The Cavs' gameplan called to slow down the game. That was the case in Game 1 with a hobbled Kyrie, and they were a missed Shumpert gimme away from winning. The team completely collapsed in overtime... when Kyrie got hurt.

But, believe what you will dick.

[Kingwillball]

della slows thing down and plays d

irving like to run and only score

if the win the next two games with della
I would trade irving:lebroncry:

No how about keep both now there is a novel idea. I like Delly but he is better suited giving energy off bench. He can obviously develop into one of the leagues best backups at PG.. Love and TT would be nasty combo at PF as well..

[Inferno]

Warriors already beat them with Kyrie, so prob Love

[RedBlackAttack]

No how about keep both now there is a novel idea. I like Delly but he is better suited giving energy off bench. He can obviously develop into one of the leagues best backups at PG.. Love and TT would be nasty combo at PF as well..
Anyone arguing that Dellavedova is somehow a better option than Kyrie Irving -- under any circumstances -- is trolling or dumb. Pointless to bicker with them. You're talking about replacing an Olympic-level talent with a borderline NBA player, and I love Delly. There isn't any world in which Delly playing 30+ minutes a night is a good idea, let alone in place of arguably the most explosive scorer in the NBA and in the Finals.

[Meticode]

You can make you case for either player. Love would be able to post anyone except Bogut on that Warriors team, but the clear answer is Irving. Irving would take such a load off LeBron and LeBron could actually rest more than 2 minutes a game. Irving also gives a second play-maker. If Irving was available I'd like this lineup...

Irving
Dellavedova
Shumpert
LeBron
Thompson

...this way you can still have Shump and Delly on Klay and Curry. And this lineup would compete with the Warriors small-ball lineup.

[RedBlackAttack]

Warriors already beat them with Kyrie, so prob Love
...at home. In overtime. After Kyrie blocked a Curry shot to give the Cavs a chance to win in regulation.

And the Cavs didn't fold in that game until Kyrie was injured in OT.

[highwhey]

You can make you case for either player. Love would be able to post anyone except Bogut on that Warriors team, but the clear answer is Irving. Irving would take such a load off LeBron and LeBron could actually rest more than 2 minutes a game. Irving also gives a second play-maker. If Irving was available I'd like this lineup...

Irving
Dellavedova
Shumpert
LeBron
Thompson

...this way you can still have Shump and Delly on Klay and Curry. And this lineup would compete with the Warriors small-ball lineup.
I agree that having kyrie would improve this team but you can't take out mozgov. He gets them easy points bc no one on the warriors can stop him in the paint. He's basically an automatic machine.

[Meticode]

I agree that having kyrie would improve this team but you can't take out mozgov. He gets them easy points bc no one on the warriors can stop him in the paint. He's basically an automatic machine.
I disagree. Kerr changed the lineup and lied about it. So the Cavaliers sent their big-man lineup out there while the Warriors played small-ball. And guess what? The Warriors were able to push the ball. Grant it, Mozgov got his with small men on him, but defensively it hurts the Cavaliers. Especially in the offensive rebound area.

[RedBlackAttack]

I disagree. Kerr changed the lineup and lied about it. So the Cavaliers sent their big-man lineup out there while the Warriors played small-ball. And guess what? The Warriors were able to push the ball. Grant it, Mozgov got his with small men on him, but defensively it hurts the Cavaliers. Especially in the offensive rebound area.
Don't agree that the starting lineup change had any real impact on how the game went. The Cavs actually jumped out to a pretty substantial lead and Golden State had to take the first timeout of the first quarter because of it.

That game was lost in large part because the Cavs were absolutely exhausted... offensive rebounds are a good indicator of dead legs. I'm not saying that going super-small wasn't a good idea... but we weren't winning that game in the shape we were in.

LeBron looked like he could barely lift his arms.

[highwhey]

I disagree. Kerr changed the lineup and lied about it. So the Cavaliers sent their big-man lineup out there while the Warriors played small-ball. And guess what? The Warriors were able to push the ball. Grant it, Mozgov got his with small men on him, but defensively it hurts the Cavaliers. Especially in the offensive rebound area.
One of the main reasons that was so effective is bc iguadola played lock down d on lebron. When agressive lebron plays, he bullies smaller players in the paint. Him and mozgov would ragdoll every warriors player in the paint, but iguadola is getting his kawhai on.

I guess a small ball line up can work well too if the chemistry between kyrie and TT is there. Its all theoretical anyhow since kyrie is out.

I'm still hoping Lebron rallies this team to a title. The odds are against him especially because of how tired they get playing so many minutes, but it can be done. I'm part of the new era that never witnessed the greatness of Jordan so im kinda yearning for that to happen again and Lebron is the only one capable of it.

[dick tracy]

if they some how won the next two games I say


della
irving
james
love
Moscow

for next year

66 and 16 best in the nab:coleman:

[GimmeThat]

why don't we just go ahead and talk about the scenario in which: If the Love trade didn't happen and that it would be Kyrie/Wiggins/Lebron against the Warriors right now.

it then really comes down to David Lee/Bogut versus Varejao/Thompson and company(I don't know how many minutes you are going to see Mosgov there to be honest, although I hadn't watch NBA in quite some time)

having Klay Thompson as the SG for the Warriors, I'm still inclined to give the edge to the Warriors here.


Putting in Dion Waiter's gonna be too late for Andrew Iguodala now.

[RedBlackAttack]

One of the main reasons that was so effective is bc iguadola played lock down d on lebron. When agressive lebron plays, he bullies smaller players in the paint. Him and mozgov would ragdoll every warriors player in the paint, but iguadola is getting his kawhai on.

I guess a small ball line up can work well too if the chemistry between kyrie and TT is there. Its all theoretical anyhow since kyrie is out.

I'm still hoping Lebron rallies this team to a title. The odds are against him especially because of how tired they get playing so many minutes, but it can be done. I'm part of the new era that never witnessed the greatness of Jordan so im kinda yearning for that to happen again and Lebron is the only one capable of it.
Iggy was able to "lock down" LeBron because he had been forced to carry a ridiculous load in the first three games. I've never seen LeBron as gassed as he was in Game 4 and it really started toward the end of Game 3. We were just playing at a pace where it wasn't quite as evident.

Just another byproduct of the loss of talent and depth the Cavs have had to endure over the last month. The way James played in the first four games, with being all over the court and doing all of the playmaking while carrying most of the scoring load and adding defense... just not sustainable over a series. And yet the Cavs have no choice.

In order to have any chance whatsoever, LeBron has to be the best player in the world by a huge margin in every game.

I wouldn't be shocked if the Cavs wore down early tonight too. There is just way too much of the burden on one guy and now the rest of the very short rotation has begun to wear down as well.

I'd be very surprised if this somehow went 7 games. I hope I'm wrong, but this roster -- as it currently sits -- is not close to a championship team. With Golden State's depth and the sheer number of bodies they can throw at LeBron -- and without having to worry about really anyone else on the floor -- the Warriors should be "locking him down" to some extent.

[LAZERUSS]

Iggy was able to "lock down" LeBron because he had been forced to carry a ridiculous load in the first three games. I've never seen LeBron as gassed as he was in Game 4 and it really started toward the end of Game 3. We were just playing at a pace where it wasn't quite as evident.

Just another byproduct of the loss of talent and depth the Cavs have had to endure over the last month. The way James played in the first four games, with being all over the court and doing all of the playmaking while carrying most of the scoring load and adding defense... just not sustainable over a series. And yet the Cavs have no choice.

In order to have any chance whatsoever, LeBron has to be the best player in the world by a huge margin in every game.

I wouldn't be shocked if the Cavs wore down early tonight too. There is just way too much of the burden on one guy and now the rest of the very short rotation has begun to wear down as well.

I'd be very surprised if this somehow went 7 games. I hope I'm wrong, but this roster -- as it currently sits -- is not close to a championship team. With Golden State's depth and the sheer number of bodies they can throw at LeBron -- and without having to worry about really anyone else on the floor -- the Warriors should be "locking him down" to some extent.

THIS.

Anyone that actually has any basketball knowledge at all would agree 100% with this.

:cheers:

[Kvnzhangyay]

Iggy was able to "lock down" LeBron because he had been forced to carry a ridiculous load in the first three games. I've never seen LeBron as gassed as he was in Game 4 and it really started toward the end of Game 3. We were just playing at a pace where it wasn't quite as evident.

Just another byproduct of the loss of talent and depth the Cavs have had to endure over the last month. The way James played in the first four games, with being all over the court and doing all of the playmaking while carrying most of the scoring load and adding defense... just not sustainable over a series. And yet the Cavs have no choice.

In order to have any chance whatsoever, LeBron has to be the best player in the world by a huge margin in every game.

I wouldn't be shocked if the Cavs wore down early tonight too. There is just way too much of the burden on one guy and now the rest of the very short rotation has begun to wear down as well.

I'd be very surprised if this somehow went 7 games. I hope I'm wrong, but this roster -- as it currently sits -- is not close to a championship team. With Golden State's depth and the sheer number of bodies they can throw at LeBron -- and without having to worry about really anyone else on the floor -- the Warriors should be "locking him down" to some extent.

Exactly. I mean, Iggy was FASTER than Lebron in game 4 :facepalm

[highwhey]

Iggy was able to "lock down" LeBron because he had been forced to carry a ridiculous load in the first three games. I've never seen LeBron as gassed as he was in Game 4 and it really started toward the end of Game 3. We were just playing at a pace where it wasn't quite as evident.

Just another byproduct of the loss of talent and depth the Cavs have had to endure over the last month. The way James played in the first four games, with being all over the court and doing all of the playmaking while carrying most of the scoring load and adding defense... just not sustainable over a series. And yet the Cavs have no choice.

In order to have any chance whatsoever, LeBron has to be the best player in the world by a huge margin in every game.

I wouldn't be shocked if the Cavs wore down early tonight too. There is just way too much of the burden on one guy and now the rest of the very short rotation has begun to wear down as well.

I'd be very surprised if this somehow went 7 games. I hope I'm wrong, but this roster -- as it currently sits -- is not close to a championship team. With Golden State's depth and the sheer number of bodies they can throw at LeBron -- and without having to worry about really anyone else on the floor -- the Warriors should be "locking him down" to some extent.
So as a cavs fan, you've lost all hope? I realize you're also a hoops fan so you'll enjoy watching the series ether way, and yeah, the load is too tremendous for one human being, but you don't have any hope left?

Maybe I'm just hard headed but i still think Lebron can achieve it with or without the warriors choking. I think it would take every last breathe, but he can do it, if he truly is a great.

[RedBlackAttack]

So as a cavs fan, you've lost all hope? I realize you're also a hoops fan so you'll enjoy watching the series ether way, and yeah, the load is too tremendous for one human being, but you don't have any hope left?

Maybe I'm just hard headed but i still think Lebron can achieve it with or without the warriors choking. I think it would take every last breathe, but he can do it, if he truly is a great.
Hope is dwindling. I wouldn't say it is completely lost, because LeBron is an all-time great player and when you have one of those, you have a chance. But, the problem is the minutes and the amount of energy he has had to expend to get us to this point. He is almost superhuman with his endurance and conditioning, but this is asking a lot even for him.

Judging by the way LeBron and really the entire team looked in Game 5 (completely drained), it is hard to imagine that this is an issue that's going to improve as the series goes into its deeper portion. Logic tells me it is only going to become more taxing and that it isn't just going to go away.

Don't get me wrong... I will watch every minute of every game and be behind them every step of the way -- and having LeBron and Tristan -- both of whom have crazy endurance -- helps give me some hope. But, I've also been playing and watching basketball my whole life and I feel like I can tell when things are starting to slip. I saw serious slippage from an energy standpoint in Game 5 and I'm concerned that is a preview of things to come.

Hope I'm wrong. Go Cavs.

[Meticode]

Don't agree that the starting lineup change had any real impact on how the game went. The Cavs actually jumped out to a pretty substantial lead and Golden State had to take the first timeout of the first quarter because of it.

That game was lost in large part because the Cavs were absolutely exhausted... offensive rebounds are a good indicator of dead legs. I'm not saying that going super-small wasn't a good idea... but we weren't winning that game in the shape we were in.

LeBron looked like he could barely lift his arms.

I feel you're contradicting yourself. You said you didn't feel the starting lineup change for the Warriors had any real impact on how the game went, but then you said the Cavaliers were exhausted. The main reason they were exhausted is because the Warriors controlled the pace compared the previous 3 games. The pace changed because they went small with Green at C and Barnes at PF and were able to push the ball more effectively.

The 7-0 run happened in the first 1 or 2 minutes of the game because the Cavaliers were amped up. Kerr said it best, basically saying in the time out, "They're coming out with a lot of energy, they won't have that at the end of the game." and he was right. The Warriors lineup changed exhausted the Cavs out. After the 7-0 run the next 10+ minutes the Cavs scored a total of 17 points. While the Warriors scored 31 points.

[RedBlackAttack]

I feel you're contradicting yourself. You said you didn't feel the starting lineup change for the Warriors had any real impact on how the game went, but then you said the Cavaliers were exhausted. The main reason they were exhausted is because ...
The main reason they're exhausted is because you have (a) LeBron James carrying a ridiculous load that is not sustainable for an entire series and (b) guys who are accustomed to playing somewhere between 10-25 minutes a night suddenly playing 30-45 minutes a night.

There is no contradiction. It has nothing to do with the Warriors, other than the fact that they happen to be extremely deep, which only exacerbates our issues.

[Meticode]

The main reason they're exhausted is because you have (a) LeBron James carrying a ridiculous load that is not sustainable for an entire series and (b) guys who are accustomed to playing somewhere between 10-25 minutes a night suddenly playing 30-45 minutes a night.

There is no contradiction. It has nothing to do with the Warriors, other than the fact that they happen to be extremely deep which helps illustrate our issues.
The Warriors pushing the ball in game 5 was the main reason the Cavaliers were tired. They couldn't control the pace. The reasons you mentioned contributed as well, but aren't the main factors. If the Cavaliers controlled the pace better like they did the last three games and made it more of a half-court game where players could get micro-rests in, they would've been better off.

In any case we'll see tonight. I expect Kerr to come out with the same lineup. The Cavs are rested and had two days off. If the Cavs can't control the pace this game, then it's evident the Warriors had everything to do with the outcome of game 4. I hope you're right though because then the Cavs have a better shot if it was simply exhaustion versus the Warriors making adjustments.

[RedBlackAttack]

The Warriors pushing the ball in game 5 was the main reason the Cavaliers were tired. They couldn't control the pace. The reasons you mentioned contributed as well, but aren't the main factors. If the Cavaliers controlled the pace better and made it more of a half-court game where players could get micro-rests in, they would've been better off.
The reason the Warriors were able to exert their will and push the pace, which they hadn't been able to do consistently even when they went small in the first three games (and that happened often), is because we were totally and completely bereft of energy and out of gas.

It's tough to slow a team down or dictate the pace of the game when you are having a hard time even getting up and down the court.

If you want to give credit to Kerr for using his depth, go for it. But I think any basketball coach with a functioning brain could have figured that out. The Cavs have 6-7 guys that they can afford to insert in the game, and that includes Dellavedova and James Jones, two guys whose minutes have been limited all season long. Of course that is going to eventually show when the Warriors are going 10 deep and rotating in new, fresh bodies every game.

David Lee hadn't even played in this series until the 4th game and Iggy had been coming off the bench in relatively limited minutes. Suddenly, they're getting big minutes the last couple games.

The Warriors have that ability and the Cavs don't. I assumed there would come a point in this series where our guys would wear to the point that they could no longer sustain the level of play they had in the first three games. It happened in Game 4 and it was always going to eventually happen regardless of which specific lineup they had in the game.

This was not a strategic win. It was a byproduct of a pretty obvious problem... and that problem is likely going to get worse unless someone like Joe Harris, Shawn Marion or Mike Miller suddenly becomes a viable option.