Sidney Moncrief (defense on Jordan) vs Bulls, 1985 EC 1st Round game4, highlights

[Dro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFV59cFZi-U

4:01 for the beginning of the game's highlights, 22:19 for the start of the 2nd half.
box score (Moncrief is credited with 2 assists here but at the end of the broadcast, although not before, they state he had 4, watching the footage it's clear he had more than 2, at least by today's standards)


Highlights of one of the most underrated players and one of the most underrated teams, ever, Sidney Moncrief and the 1980's Milwaukee Bucks. Moncrief, the best shooting guard in the NBA at the time, in a head2head matchup against Michael Jordan, rookie of the year with a splendid campaign, already amazing.
You can see Moncrief displaying his scoring, his passing, his rebounding and his defense, primarily guarding Jordan but at times also Quintin Dailey. Pay attention to #4, you can see the great job he did on Jordan (or Dailey), always bothering him, keeping him out of the paint, forcing him into crowded areas, denying his sweet spots, contesting his shots, meeting him at the rim, using his body, athleticism, fundamentals and length, even keeping up with him in trasition which was almost impossible, playing some great help D too. Jordan also had some really good defensive plays of his own.
Michael didn't make more than 3 field goals while directly being guarded by Sidney, for the game he went 6-16 but went to the line 20 times, mostly in trasition and also on drives, forcing his way onto the paint. Of course, no man could "contain" Jordan that much, it's a team effort, Moncrief was a terrific defensive player but the Bucks were too a great team and were doing a great job all around, also following Don Nelson's diverse strategies. Paul Pressey and Ricky Pierce also had their shot at MJ.
Sid was in his prime and certainly had better teammates around, while MJ was a rookie on a worse team, but also has to be said that Moncrief is the only SG who can claim to have, arguably, outplayed Jordan in a playoffs series, while the vast majority was never even close. For the series:
Moncrief - 26.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.8 TO's, 54.9% FG, 40.0% 3P, 92.3% FT, 71.7% TS, 42.0 mpg
Jordan - 29.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 8.5 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.0 bpg, 3.8 TO's, 43.6% FG, 12.5% 3P, 82.8% FT, 56.5% TS, 42.8 mpg
While the Bucks won the series, 3-1.
Michael always admired Sidney, who really showed him the ropes, and went on to say: "When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it."
Sid had a great playoff run in 1985, the Bucks got swept in the ECSF though. Starting in 1986, while he was still 28 years old, a growing string of injuries would cripple him for the rest of his career, hindering his talents and forcing him into an early retirement. A spot in the Hall of Fame is still long overdue.

[3ball]

.
Here he is getting smashed on:


http://i.imgur.com/TSSplhC.gif


Standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11188520&postcount=37)..

[SHAQisGOAT]

.
Here he is getting smashed on:


http://i.imgur.com/TSSplhC.gif


Standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11188520&postcount=37)..

Funny that you have to post a gif from after his knees gave up on him to hate on the man... Shows what you're made of, shows the type of bitch you are...

[SHAQisGOAT]

Funny that you have to post a gif from after his knees gave up on him to hate on the man... Shows what you're made of, shows the type of bitch you are...

Wasn't "smashing on" no one for that series, with a healthy Moncrief...

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-14-2015/aWyNUW.gif

[ShawkFactory]

.
Here he is getting smashed on:


http://i.imgur.com/TSSplhC.gif


Standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11188520&postcount=37)..
So insecure...

[mehyaM24]

held jordan to 43% shooting. very impressive.

and he's just one man in an era where iso was welcomed.

not to derail the thread, but lebron is shooting poorly because all of the defensive attention is on him. everything he does is met with a trap inside the paint.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif


lebron is shooting poorly because all of the defensive attention is on him. everything he does is met with a trap inside the paint.



In today's game, defenders must position themselves behind the far side of the paint on the weakside to guard against weakside 3-pointers (see GIF above).. When defenders are behind the far side of the paint on the weakside, they're furthest away to help on Lebron's strongside penetration and the paint is wide open.

Otoh, in MJ's day, defenders didn't have to guard weakside 3-pointers, so they stayed on the strongside and were therefore helping on strongside action from a much closer distance: http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif.


Regarding the coverage Lebron has faced in these playoffs, here are two threads showing how today's weakside spacing reduces the number of strongside defenders, and creates 1-defender strongsides for Lebron to go 1-on-1 all alone against his man:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570

[LAZERUSS]

In today's game, defenders must position themselves behind the far side of the paint on the weakside to guard against weakside 3-pointers (see GIF above).. When defenders are behind the far side of the paint on the weakside, they're furthest away to help on Lebron's strongside penetration and the paint is wide open.

Otoh, in MJ's day, defenders didn't have to guard weakside 3-pointers, so they stayed on the strongside and were therefore helping on strongside action from a much closer distance: http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/573113292e852dcb8f5fe242c53e3982.gif.


Regarding the coverage Lebron has faced in these playoffs, here are two threads showing how today's weakside spacing reduces the number of strongside defenders, and creates 1-defender strongsides for Lebron to go 1-on-1 all alone against his man:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570

This still doesn't explain a prime Mongrief dramatically outplaying MJ, and limiting him to just horrific shooting.

[mehyaM24]

cherry picked gifs won't cut it.

look at the defense from the 1992 blazers and 1993 suns. uncontested 3's, free lanes everywhere. the gifs i've provided in multiple threads should be enough evidence for you to inhale.

[3ball]

.
Show me where MJ got to play 1-on-1 with Moncrief all alone on strongside like this, with the zero defenders in the paint:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/XIjX_w.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/I7p0lg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/xUCd0U.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif

http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/1e79dc71a542600a777d78638e6a7e69.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/LJjm2B.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/LN8UHS.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/QpWaKl.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/7mUjI9.gif



I'll wait.. (Obviously I won't wait, because I know there are no such instances - MJ never faced an empty paint - EVER... EVER EVER EVER.. Paint-camping was legal, and defenders didn't have to guard weakside 3-pointers, so MJ faced strongsides that contained more defenders, usually all 5.. Otoh, today's weakside spacing would allow him to face porous strongsides that usually only contained 1 or 2 defenders.. And help defenders would be tardy due to spacing just like they are for everyone else - defenders are more spaced out and must come from further distances.. period.)

[3ball]

This still doesn't explain a prime Mongrief outplaying MJ, and limiting him to just horrific shooting.


MJ averaged 29/6/9 on 58% TS as a rookie, against the reigning DPOY.. That's GOAT.. For his career, MJ destroyed Moncrief:

MJ career average vs. Sidney Moncrief: 31.6 PPG (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=moncrsi01)

Of course, the previous post shows how today's player faces less strongside defenders due to weakside spacing.. But MJ didn't get to play Moncrief with the benefit of weakside spacing, so he faced far more defenders on the strongside than he would in today's game.. Can you imagine MJ vs. Moncrief in today's game where Moncrief has ZERO help defenders on the strongside to help him?... MUUUUURDDAAAAA.. Oh wait, MJ averaged 32 PPG for his career vs. Moncrief - so it already was.. :oldlol:
.

[SHAQisGOAT]

MJ averaged 29/6/9 on 58% TS

Dat 43.6% from the field though :rolleyes:

7.9% drop-off in FG from the regular-season, only scoring 1 more point per game while playing 5 more minutes.



against the reigning DPOY

Mark Eaton that year but whatever



That's GOAT

What to say about Moncrief, in that series h2h vs MJ, then?

26.5 PPG on 54.9% FG, .717 TS% :bowdown:
Considerably upping his regular-season stats.
150 ORtg :applause:
Playing terrific defense on the all-time greatest, while his team won 3-1.
Damn, that's truly GOAT :pimp:



For his career, MJ destroyed Moncrief:

MJ career average vs. Sidney Moncrief: 31.6 PPG (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=moncrsi01)


Let's consider them both in top form though, no major injuries... Or else should we look up to Jordan's time with the Wizards without a grain of salt, should we look at it like it was Jordan's prime, while he could only average 21 on 43%?

And while Sid had a great defensive team behind him, defensive minded with a great coach, he still guarded Jordan on plenty of iso's in that series...

[sdot_thadon]

Well you don't say......and all this time I thought Mj was the reflection of perfection.

[LAZERUSS]

Dat 43.6% from the field though :rolleyes:

7.9% drop-off in FG from the regular-season, only scoring 1 more point per game while playing 5 more minutes.




Mark Eaton that year but whatever




What to say about Moncrief, in that series h2h vs MJ, then?

26.5 PPG on 54.9% FG, .717 TS% :bowdown:
Considerably upping his regular-season stats.
150 ORtg :applause:
Playing terrific defense on the all-time greatest, while his team won 3-1.
Damn, that's truly GOAT :pimp:




Let's consider them both in top form though, no major injuries... Or else should we look up to Jordan's time with the Wizards without a grain of salt, should we look at it like it was Jordan's prime, while he could only average 21 on 43%?

And while Sid had a great defensive team behind him, defensive minded with a great coach, he still guarded Jordan on plenty of iso's in that series...

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Mongrief was a true stud.

[3ball]

Some misinformation itt

[3ball]

What to say about Moncrief, in that series h2h vs MJ, then?


It's GOAT for a rookie to get 29/6/9 on 58% TS against the reigning DPOY.

And that's what MJ did to Moncrief.. Took him back to the woodshed and gave him that ol' 29/6/9 ass whoopin... as a rookie.

Nothing you say can take away from this fact - it trumps any twisting of this fact that you attempt.

Moncrief played great too, but he was on a stacked, 59-win team - he had tons of help, while as usual, MJ was going against the entire defense... as a rookie.. and STILL destroyed Moncrief for 29/6/9 on 58% TS.. Gaudy, GOAT stats for the rook against the DPOY.
.

[3ball]

Show me where MJ got to play 1-on-1 with Moncrief all alone on strongside like this, with the zero defenders in the paint:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/XIjX_w.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/I7p0lg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/xUCd0U.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/LJjm2B.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/LN8UHS.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/QpWaKl.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/7mUjI9.gif



I'll wait.. (Obviously I won't wait, because I know there are no such instances - MJ never faced an empty paint - EVER... EVER EVER EVER.. Paint-camping was legal, and defenders didn't have to guard weakside 3-pointers, so MJ faced strongsides that contained more defenders, usually all 5.. Otoh, today's weakside spacing would allow him to face porous strongsides that usually only contained 1 or 2 defenders.. And help defenders would be tardy due to spacing - defenders are more spaced out and must come from further distances.. period.)



That's what I thought - no one can address today's weakside spacing ^^^^^

Anytime I post this topic, I'm just figuratively fist-pumping, because no one has responded or refuted it.. They've only complained that I post it.. Well sorry, but


http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/trth.gif

[SHAQisGOAT]

It's GOAT for a rookie to get 29/6/9 on 58% TS against the reigning DPOY.

And that's what MJ did to Moncrief.. Took him back to the woodshed and gave him that ol' 29/6/9 ass whoopin... as a rookie.

Nothing you say can take away from this fact - it trumps any twisting of this fact that you attempt.

Moncrief played great too, but he was on a stacked, 59-win team - he had tons of help, while as usual, MJ was going against the entire defense... as a rookie.. and STILL destroyed Moncrief for 29/6/9 on 58% TS.. Gaudy, GOAT stats for the rook against the DPOY.

Tbh, the only ol' ass whoopin I'm seeing here is 26.5 PPG on .717 TS% :bowdown:
150 ORtg on that ass, .569 eFG% :applause:
WHILE holding the all-time greatest SG well under his usual %'s, WHILE leading his team to that 3-1 victory in the series.
Goddamn! :bowdown:

http://i60.tinypic.com/fxqhb6.jpg

TS% for MJ was .565, don't stretch it to 58% :rolleyes:
Love how you just mention the TS% on this topic though :lol How about saying Mike shot a sub-par 43.6% from the field, .442 eFG%.
Again, 5 more minutes per game for Jordan, yet only 1 more PPG up from the RS...
FG drop-off of 7.9%, from the regular-season!!
Bunch of TO's too, trying to do way too much, while Sid kept his possessions very efficient with terrific impact, then doing the best you can get on the other end.

http://i57.tinypic.com/w9f9s1.jpg

All that team talk is true... To a certain point.
Jordan also had teammate Orlando Woolridge putting up 20.5 on 50% for the series, he was wrecking shit up in the paint.
Quintin Dailey, Jordan's backup, was coming off the bench putting up 15.3, although on 41% from the floor.

Not even like the series was WAY too one-sided for the Bucks... 110 to 105 points per game, 114 to 109 ORtg... .514 to .472 eFG%... Bulls with better ORB% and less TOV%.
It was within reach, let's say. And Jordan still played a great series, but got outplayed and lost :cry:

And you just KNOW that if that happened with LeBron and not MJ, you'd be all up on it, mocking James... So, just gimme a break.

I'd say the case for Moncrief having outplayed MJ is stronger than the other way around, just how it is... Sid showed him the ropes, be glad for it just like Jordan was, just like Jordan said it happened.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-14-2015/aWyNUW.gif
:no: Not in my house!

Stop being so salty, son.

[97 bulls]

Moncrier was a great defender. But this comparison is with him in his prime and Jordan as a rookie. 90s Jordan would've killed him

[SHAQisGOAT]

Moncrier was a great defender. But this comparison is with him in his prime and Jordan as a rookie. 90s Jordan would've killed him

Why those assumptions, now? We can only talk about what happened here :rolleyes: Remember those threads when you dismissed the notion of the Bulls never beating a healthy Pistons team in a Playoff series, never winning rings until the Lakers were not nearly as good as before, and the Celtics were washed up... Freshen up your mind.
Nobody could say anything about Chicago not being able to beat those teams at their best, in the Playoffs.

Anyways, Moncrief (and the Bucks) was still able to hold Jordan well under his regular-season's FG% while Mike only scored 1 more PPG in 5 more min's.
And on the other end, Sid gave them hell, upping his play from the RS considerably. Leading his team to that 3-1 series victory.
Sidney did what had to be done...

Jordan's the GOAT scorer, the GOAT 2guard BUT Moncrief's also the GOAT on-ball defensive SG... So "would've killed him" is taking it too far.

[97 bulls]

Why those assumptions, now? We can only talk about what happened here :rolleyes: Remember those threads when you dismissed the notion of the Bulls never beating a healthy Pistons team in a Playoff series, never winning rings until the Lakers were not nearly as good as before, and the Celtics were washed up... Freshen up your mind.
Nobody could say anything about Chicago not being able to beat those teams at their best, in the Playoffs.

Anyways, Moncrief (and the Bucks) was still able to hold Jordan well under his regular-season's FG% while Mike only scored 1 more PPG in 5 more min's.
And on the other end, Sid gave them hell, upping his play from the RS considerably. Leading his team to that 3-1 series victory.
Sidney did what had to be done...

Jordan's the GOAT scorer, the GOAT 2guard BUT Moncrief's also the GOAT on-ball defensive SG... So "would've killed him" is taking it too far.
Thats not what i said. I said its hypocritical to criticize the Bulls for beating the Lakers and Pistons when they were injured or missing key players off their best championship team, when you don't apply the same logic to the other. Again. NONE of those teams played or beat each other at their best. They beat a variation just like the Bulls did.

Funny thing is you have no response for this