The only people who think kobe > bran are...

[ISHGoat]

kobe stans/lebron haters

am I right?

basically every neutral party, and other stan bases (wilt stans, mj stans, etc) thinks lebron is greater

fan bases of literally every other team acknowledge that bran > kobe AS A PLAYER, correct?

where im from (toronto), it is pretty much unanimous amongst bball fans/hoopers that lebron > kobe. everyone at my office is also cheering for lebron this series.

[DMAVS41]

I don't think you have to hate Lebron and love Kobe to take Kobe over Lebron.

I personally have Lebron over Kobe now, but it's not like comparing MJ to Kobe or something. The gap isn't nearly that big.

And while I do take Lebron, we can't ignore that an argument could be made that Lebron's lack of range shooting that has plagued him greatly when it matters most is a weakness so big that it makes Kobe the better player.

I think that everything else Lebron does on the court trumps that huge weakness, but it remains a huge weakness.

Go back and look at the biggest series Lebron has ever played against the best teams. His shot seems to just break down.

Broke down in 07. Broke down in 10. Broke down in 11. Broke down in 13 for the first 5 games and 3 qtrs (this remains one of the most under-rated things...credit to Lebron for game 7, but he was dreadful in that game 6 until the last stretch and without the Allen shot would have had yet another brutally bad finals) Has been broken all of the 15 playoffs.

Not being able to consistently make teams pay for giving you a huge cushion on shots is a glaring weakness in a great players game.

Kobe has plenty of issues as well, but I think a sensible argument could be made that they aren't as big as Lebron's shooting that comes and goes so often.

Having said that, Lebron has been a clear cut more dominant player to me overall and has proved he can do more with less...and his longevity, durability, and overall game...to me at least...trump what Kobe has done.

But it's not night and day.

Lebron keeps up this level for 5 or so more years and wins a couple more titles while playing great? Or somehow wins this series? Then yea...probably will take what you say.

[Mr. Jabbar]

im neutral and id take kobe over lebald

[Magic 32]

http://s29.postimg.org/4wbdm1r5z/six_fingers.jpg

[HylianNightmare]

5>2

[kennethgriffin]

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/11090247/all-nba-players

1.Michael Jordan

2.Magic Johnson

3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4.Larry Bird

5.Wilt Chamberlain

6.Bill Russell

7.Kobe Bryant

8.LeBron James

9.Tim Duncan

10.Shaquille O'Neal

[sportjames23]

Even as a Lebron fan since 2004, I have to say Kobe is just a little bit better.

[KembaWalker]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

No one is seen as neutral on this forum, you rank Kobe above Bron you're seen as a Kobe stan, you rank Bron above Kobe and you're seen as a Bron stan

[kennethgriffin]

http://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time


#1Michael Jordan



#2Magic Johnson



#3Larry Bird



#4Kareem Abdul-Jabbar



#5Wilt Chamberlin



#6Bill Russell



#7Kobe Bryant



#8Hakeem Olajuwon



#9Shaquille O'Neal



#10Tim Duncan


#11Oscar Robertson


#12Julius Erving



#13Lebron James

[Asukal]

Let's not get carried away, I think the comparison is valid but if bran goes 2/6 how can you say with a straight face that he is better than kobe? :whatever:

[kennethgriffin]

Let's not get carried away, I think the comparison is valid but if bran goes 2/6 how can you say with a straight face that he is better than kobe? :whatever:


the comparison isnt valid

moses malone has allot more mvps than kobe too

hes nowhere near him all time


moses 1 ring
lebron 1.5 rings


they dont compare

[BlakFrankWhite]

Lebron, duncan,shaq and KD are the best players of this generation

[kennethgriffin]

Lebron, duncan,shaq and KD are the best players of this generation

shaq and lebron are not even from the same generation


:lol


shaqs run was mid 90's to mid 00's

lebrons is late 00's to now

2 entirely different generations actually



and kobe was the player of the decade by every media outlet

[choppermagic]

A good number of HOF NBA Players and stars have publicly picked Kobe over Lebron. Does that make them haters?

[MEB2kDeez]

A lot of people do really


Depends on what you take value in.

[1~Gibson~1]

http://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time


#1Michael Jordan



#2Magic Johnson



#3Larry Bird



#4Kareem Abdul-Jabbar



#5Wilt Chamberlin



#6Bill Russell



#7Kobe Bryant



#8Hakeem Olajuwon



#9Shaquille O'Neal



#10Tim Duncan


#11Oscar Robertson


#12Julius Erving



#13Lebron James
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/11090247/all-nba-players

1.Michael Jordan

2.Magic Johnson

3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4.Larry Bird

5.Wilt Chamberlain

6.Bill Russell

7.Kobe Bryant

8.LeBron James

9.Tim Duncan

10.Shaquille O'Neal
Lebron (2 FMVPs) > Kobe (2 FMVPs), just barely.

&

Lebron (3 FMVPs) >> Kobe (2 FMVPs).

[FKAri]

If I want to get the most out of a scrub team I take Bron
If I want to put an already good team over the top I take Kobe

[catch24]

I think they're about equal tbh

[Magic 32]

Lebron (2 FMVPs) > Kobe (2 FMVPs), just barely.

&

Lebron (3 FMVPs) >> Kobe (2 FMVPs).


Speaking of "just barely"...

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tr6XsZVb-ZE/hqdefault.jpg

[1~Gibson~1]

Speaking of "just barely"...

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tr6XsZVb-ZE/hqdefault.jpgThat was one awesome shot by Ray Allen, however Shaquille O'Neal is responsible for Kobe Bryant first THREE championships.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Speaking of "just barely"...

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tr6XsZVb-ZE/hqdefault.jpg

:roll:

1.5* / 6

[theoneneo]

Any person with eyes would tell you Kobe's a better basketball player, the only he doesn't have are MVPs, but the MVP award is the most inconsistent award in basketball.

Don't let Lebron's finals number trick you, any star player would put up triple doubles if they had the ball in their hand 90% of the time, we just saw GOATBROOK do it this season.

Lebron has, no post game, no shot, average dribble, no go to move, how can this player be better than Kobe? :biggums:

Let's call it like we see it, Bron is an Average Bball player with Godlike athleticism that's all, and he's the media darling.

[plowking]

I'm probably more of a fan of Bron now than Kobe after his stint at the Heat, but I think I'm fairly unbiased when it comes to assessing the players. I was a much bigger fan of Kobe prior to Bron joining the Heat, and actually actively rooted for Bron to fail much like most of the Bron haters on here now. Then again, I was a lot younger then too.

Saying that though, even as someone who didn't like Bron much, his level of play in 2009 was to me at least, a level higher than Kobe ever reached, and I thought of him as the better player at that point. His first MVP season was crazy. From that point onwards, I don't think Kobe has ever been better, and has never actually reached the level of play Bron showed from 09-14. This season Bron declined a bit, but he will probably bounce back next season.

From the players I've seen, only Shaq has definitely had a better peak than Bron. He is right there with peak MJ. Can't comment on Wilt and Kareem, but I've watched a ton of Bird, and in my opinion he is better than him too. Bron is one of the 5 best basketball players ever at his best.

[BlakFrankWhite]

@Plowking

If you're referring to LBJ beasting in 2009-10...then you're referreing to regular season LBJ...and well...

2014 reg season KD > 2009 reg season bron

[HOoopCityJones]

I'm probably more of a fan of Bron now than Kobe after his stint at the Heat, but I think I'm fairly unbiased when it comes to assessing the players. I was a much bigger fan of Kobe prior to Bron joining the Heat, and actually actively rooted for Bron to fail much like most of the Bron haters on here now. Then again, I was a lot younger then too.

Saying that though, even as someone who didn't like Bron much, his level of play in 2009 was to me at least, a level higher than Kobe ever reached, and I thought of him as the better player at that point. His first MVP season was crazy. From that point onwards, I don't think Kobe has ever been better, and has never actually reached the level of play Bron showed from 09-14. This season Bron declined a bit, but he will probably bounce back next season.

From the players I've seen, only Shaq has definitely had a better peak than Bron. He is right there with peak MJ. Can't comment on Wilt and Kareem, but I've watched a ton of Bird, and in my opinion he is better than him too. Bron is one of the 5 best basketball players ever at his best.

Cuck.

[kennethgriffin]

Lebron (2 FMVPs) > Kobe (2 FMVPs), just barely.

&

Lebron (3 FMVPs) >> Kobe (2 FMVPs).


are you mentally challenged or something

kobes 2 fmvps =

- both in a full season
- both without bail out game winners to save the year
- both without colluding
- both without ring chasing
- both without a single legendary team mates
- both without multiple HOF sidekicks period


lebrons 2 fmvps =

- 1 in a lockout season
- one with a bail out game winner to save the year
- both colluding
- both ring chasing
- both with a legendary team mate
- both with multiple HOF sidekicks in their prime


how on gods green earth are lebrons 2 fmvps even worth a fart in the wind compared to kobes

kobes 2 = hakeem 94
lebrons 2 = no one in nba history has had a worse or more pathetic run



and 3 more rings averaging 25/5/5+ > 3 more regular season PER/popularity stat ESPN voted nominations


nobody wins mvp. and even if they did its for a meaningless regular season

[plowking]

@Plowking

If you're referring to LBJ beasting in 2009-10...then you're referreing to regular season LBJ...and well...

2014 reg season KD > 2009 reg season bron

Nah man. KD can't touch what Bron did in 09, 10, 12, 13. All his MVP seasons are better than KD's. Particularly 09. Dude was sitting out so many 4th quarters. Could have put up even crazier stats.

[Ne 1]

Shaquille O'Neal is responsible for Kobe Bryant first THREE championships.


:coleman:


http://oi57.tinypic.com/2yw7gy1.jpg

[NBASTATMAN]

IMO they are both equal IMO....

But Magic Johnson and SkIP Bayless said they would put Lebron on their MT RUSHMORE of BBALL....

I think that is crazy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc2lKjfiYMY

[Showtime2001]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

No one is seen as neutral on this forum, you rank Kobe above Bron you're seen as a Kobe stan, you rank Bron above Kobe and you're seen as a Bron stan
This.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's easy to be a Laker fan, they only faced adversity for a 5 year stretch from '92 - '96. It's why the Lakers have the largest fan base in the country. The basketball yankees.

Their fans are like basketball spoiled, entitle, douche rich kid syndrome. ... because even with a lineage of the greatest bought players of all-time: Mikan, Wilt, West, Baylor, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, and Gasol ... they HATE these two men:

http://cdn-jpg.si.com/sites/default/files/2013/06/lebron-james-michael-jordan-comparison.jpg

Why? Because even with all that bought all time great superstars. A franchise stacked with top ten talent. These two guys individually are better than any of them, and never played in purple / gold.

That's why they vehemently hate, and throw shade at them any chance they possibly get.

[Chrono90]

Both are great players but what separates these two are

- Lebron plays in the East which gives him the chance to play in the finals in multiple years. The gap is pretty big if you look at the teams. Then fatigue factor plays a part too.

- Lebron changed teams twice. First to play with prime Wade and Bosh and then switched to play with prime Irving and Love. He's constantly trying to improve his situation. Kobe stucked with one team his whole career through ups and downs, however, you can't deny that Kobe had great teammates also.

Other than that, we're just looking at one straight up killer scorer vs an all around triple double machine.

[HOoopCityJones]

It's easy to be a Laker fan, they only faced adversity for a 5 year stretch from '92 - '96. It's why the Lakers have the largest fan base in the country. The basketball yankees.

Their fans are like basketball spoiled, entitle, douche rich kid syndrome. ... because even with a lineage of the greatest bought players of all-time: Mikan, Wilt, West, Baylor, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, and Gasol ... they HATE these two men:

http://cdn-jpg.si.com/sites/default/files/2013/06/lebron-james-michael-jordan-comparison.jpg

Why? Because even with all that bought all time great superstars. A franchise stacked with top ten talent. These two guys individually are better than any of them, and never played in purple / gold.

That's why they vehemently hate, and throw shade at them any chance they possibly get.

Lakers are shit because they're great at scouting All Time Greats? :biggums:

How about once you've had a few it's easy to spot the All time greats among the good to decent players.

Also, Lebron doesn't hold a candle to Jordan, he's been a front runner in a historically weak conference his entire career. This notion that Laker Players were gifted anything is a joke. Kobe started from the bench as a Rookie air balling jumpers, and WORKED his way to one of the 10 greatest ever.

You would think Basketball fans would respect that shit.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

"Mikan, Wilt, West, Baylor, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, and Gasol"

:roll:

[BlakFrankWhite]

Lakers are shit because they're great at scouting All Time Greats? :biggums:



Learn the difference between scouting and luring

[Wade's Rings]

Lakers are shit because they're great at scouting All Time Greats? :biggums:

How about once you've had a few it's easy to spot the All time greats among the good to decent players.

Also, Lebron doesn't hold a candle to Jordan, he's been a front runner in a historically weak conference his entire career. This notion that Laker Players were gifted anything is a joke. Kobe started from the bench as a Rookie air balling jumpers, and WORKED his way to one of the 10 greatest ever.

You would think Basketball fans would respect that shit.

"greatest bought players of all-time"

[BlakFrankWhite]

"Mikan, Wilt, West, Baylor, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, and Gasol"

:roll:


LOL....how much do Lakers fans HATE Gasol?

Even though he's the reason Kobe didn't suffer the humilation of game 7 finals loss at home

[HOoopCityJones]

Learn the difference between scouting and luring

Kareem, Wilt and Shaq? Kobe, Magic and West were drafted :biggums:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

LOL....how much do Lakers fans HATE Gasol?

Even though he's the reason Kobe didn't suffer the humilation of game 7 finals loss at home

I hate him because he doesn't belong on a list of top 15-20 players of all time? :oldlol:

[Ne 1]

These two guys individually are better than any of them, and never played in purple / gold.


http://i.onionstatic.com/avclub/4234/11/16x9/960.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lakers are shit because they're great at scouting All Time Greats? :biggums:
When did I say the Lakers were shit? Called them the basketball yankees. So, the most important franchise in the sport.

You've got some straw man arguments popping over here.

I said their fans are entitled, spoiled douche bags who throw shade at two superior players simply because they're the few all-time greats who never played in purple / gold. They are the only players these "fans" of basketball relentlessly hate on. It's easy to be a Laker fan. It's why they have the biggest collection of bangwagoners around.


Also, Lebron doesn't hold a candle to Jordan, he's been a front runner in a historically weak conference his entire career.
I wouldn't say he doesn't hold a candle, but Jordan was definitely better and greater IMO.

And? Magic played on a stacked team, in an equally horrific Western Conference most of the time for the duration of the 80s. Yes LeBron has had some cowardly stacked teams, in a very weak conference the majority of the time, but he's also done things like what he's doing this season a few times ... taking a team of role players, and niche guys to places they have no business being.

2007 Cavs, 2009 Cavs, 2010 Cavs (regular season) and this 2015 Cavs team since the end of the first round. Even in a declined conference, with equally poor surrounding talent, those teams shouldn't have been as good as they were. It was all LeBron.


This notion that Laker Players were gifted anything is a joke.
Where did I say that either? I said the vast majority of them were lured there due to the money, and location. They weren't in house, groomed products. Even Kobe manipulated his sitch to go there. He told the Nets when Callipari was going to draft him, that if they did, he would go to play in Italy instead. Even though he had no intent to do that. An 18 year old manipulating his destination in the draft to get to LA.

Same way Magic did.


Kobe started from the bench as a Rookie air balling jumpers, and WORKED his way to one of the 10 greatest ever.

You would think Basketball fans would respect that shit.
Who says I don't respect that ... I think we all do. I didn't say anything degrading about any of these players. Particularly Kobe. So umm, why are you bringing him up?

Meanwhile you have Laker stans like kennethgriffin, Yao Ming's Foot, and others trying to bring down LeBron, or even MJ down a peg due to insecurity. Meanwhile these two players are consensus > Kobe, Magic, West, Baylor, Shaq, Kareem, etc.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

If "throwing shade" on fellow great player is a sign of insecurity than Jordan mythologists have even the largest Kobe or Lebron stans beat by about 15 years of practice.

Your lack of self awareness is cringeworthy. :facepalm

[HOoopCityJones]

When did I say the Lakers were shit? Called them the basketball yankees. So, the most important franchise in the sport.

You've got some straw man arguments popping over here.

I said their fans are entitled, spoiled douche bags who throw shade at two superior players simply because they're the few all-time greats who never played in purple / gold. They are the only players these "fans" of basketball relentlessly hate on. It's easy to be a Laker fan. It's why they have the biggest collection of bangwagoners around.


I wouldn't say he doesn't hold a candle, but Jordan was definitely better and greater IMO.

And? Magic played on a stacked team, in an equally horrific Western Conference most of the time for the duration of the 80s. Yes LeBron has had some cowardly stacked teams, in a very weak conference the majority of the time, but he's also done things like what he's doing this season a few times ... taking a team of role players, and niche guys to places they have no business being.

2007 Cavs, 2009 Cavs, 2010 Cavs (regular season) and this 2015 Cavs team since the end of the first round. Even in a declined conference, with equally poor surrounding talent, those teams shouldn't have been as good as they were. It was all LeBron.


Where did I say that either? I said the vast majority of them were lured there due to the money, and location. They weren't in house, groomed products. Even Kobe manipulated his sitch to go there. He told the Nets when Callipari was going to draft him, that if they did, he would go to play in Italy instead. Even though he had no intent to do that. An 18 year old manipulating his destination in the draft to get to LA.

Same way Magic did.


Who says I don't respect that ... I think we all do. I didn't say anything degrading about any of these players. Particularly Kobe. So umm, why are you bringing him up?

Meanwhile you have Laker stans like kennethgriffin, Yao Ming's Foot, and others trying to bring down LeBron, or even MJ down a peg due to insecurity. Meanwhile these two players are consensus > Kobe, Magic, West, Baylor, Shaq, Kareem, etc.

Bro, stop trying to piggy back Lebron off Jordan :roll:


Jordan is a consensus.

Lebron vs Kobe is an eternal debate that rages on to this day. Lebron stans were trying to say Lebron > Kobe after his first ring, that's more insecurity and hype more than anything. ESPN just held a poll asking this very question and the entire nation said prime Kobe > Prime Lebron

Not much of a consensus. :confusedshrug:


Also lol @ Lebron being a consensus GOAT over Kareem.

[mehyaM24]

lebron, and especially jordan are NOT "consensus" over kareem & magic

lol @ this idiot. jordan might be the greatest perimeter scorer, but as an ALL AROUND player, he doesn't hold a candle to what lebron does.

kareem and lebron's impact > jordan - and kareem > jordan alltime

[SamuraiSWISH]

If "throwing shade" on fellow great player is a sign of insecurity than Jordan mythologists have even the largest Kobe or Lebron stans beat by about 15 years of practice.
Jordan stans don't throw shade, they throw reality. It all started with the rise of the Kobe stans in the very early 2000s.

MJ has always been the standard before these two guys, so any sane person isn't going to just call someone (Kobe/LeBron} equal or better without truly EARNING it. Which is the agenda Kobe stans were on from day one, just because he aped Mike's mannerisms, and cloned aspects of his game.

I don't say anything that unfairly about either Kobe, or LeBron in order to take them down a peg to 'protect Jordan.' Both are firmly top ten. Both are easily the best perimeter players I've seen since Mike.

LeBron however is just better, and greater by this point than Kobe ever was. It's just truth to most of the un-bias, non Laker / Kobe stan world. And this comes from someone who dislikes Kobe, I'm a fan. I have however had bouts of great disdain for LeBron, yet this is the obvious truth as a basketball fan I'm claiming. Should be obvious to anyone by this point, or they're just living in a state of denial.

A Kobe stan making the argument he's better than Jordan was always ludicrous. No cover band is better than the real deal.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jordan stans don't throw shade, they throw reality. It all started with the rise of the Kobe stans in the very early 2000s.


Jordan mythologists have been insecure about Kobe since he started stacking rings. Thanks for admitting it.

:confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

lebron, and especially jordan are NOT "consensus" over kareem & magic
Jordan is definitely consensus better than Magic. And Kareem basically too. He's the consensus GOAT by the vast majority of people.


lol @ this idiot.
You mad, bro?


jordan might be the greatest perimeter scorer, but as an ALL AROUND player, he doesn't hold a candle to what lebron does.
I'm the idiot, than if what you say is true ... Jordan never did this:

1988: 35 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 3 spg and DPOY
1989: 33 ppg, 8 rpg, 8 apg, 3 spg

Pretty much lends itself to absolute credibility for "ALL AROUND GAME" if there ever was a need for that distinction. Calling MJ specifically just a scorer, as if his all around floor game is dramatically less than LeBron's is flat out lie.

If anything the gap between their all around game is closer than LeBron's ability as a volume scorer to Jordan. It's why he's the better player. MJ could play a niche role with great players as he did in the 2nd three peat. Or he could do everything, as he did before Pippen became a legit sidekick in 1990. Or he could do it all even with great teammates as did in the playoff / Finals from '91 - '93.

31 ppg, 6 rpg, 8 apg - 1991 playoffs
35 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg - 1992 playoffs
35 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg - 1993 playoffs

Greatest of all time. Consensus majority. GOAT gona GOAT.

[Wade's Rings]

Jordan mythologists have been insecure about Kobe since he started stacking rings. Thanks for admitting it.

:confusedshrug:

Why would they have been insecure? Jordan had all the accolades and is a better player.

[mehyaM24]

so 2 cherry-picked seasons vs. what lebron has been doing his entire career? lmao

jordan is not the consensus goat. there is no consensus.
kareem > jordan imo, and to guys like chris webber & grant hill.
its even debatable to people who actually played the game.

if lebron wins this finals, get ready for the jordan & lebron debate. because its coming - and lebron will have enough on his resume to have a good argument.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why would they have been insecure? Jordan had all the accolades and is a better player.

Kobe was 23 with 3 rings.
Jordan didn't win anything until he was 27.

They were shook and remained so throughout Kobe's career. :confusedshrug:

[Wade's Rings]

so 2 cherry-picked seasons vs. what lebron has been doing his entire career? lmao

jordan is not the consensus goat. there is no consensus.
kareem > jordan imo, and to guys like chris webber & grant hill.
its even debatable to people who actually played the game.

if lebron wins this finals, get ready for the jordan & lebron debate. because its coming - and lebron will have enough on his resume to have a good argument.

Chris Webber is Bias in favor of Kareem because he was a big man :lol

Chris Webber also thought he was on the level of Dirk, Timmy D, and KG :roll:

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan mythologists have been insecure about Kobe since he started stacking rings. Thanks for admitting it.

:confusedshrug:
Kobe apostles hype up, and tear down other players (not just MJ, they did it in their own era w/ Wade and LeBron) in an attempt to make their dude appear better than he was. Thus maybe perceived insecurity due to Kobe's early age rings he won thanks to a prime Shaq.

Jordan stans however have no need to be insecure about Kobe. He'll always be considered poor man's Jordan, and the debate of him reaching or eclipsing MJ has long past. Too many failures. Not enough winning, accolades, or comparable Jordan esque prime dominance.

That debate has been 6 feet under somwehere since 2008 Finals Loss - 2011 WCSF Loss. A time period at the tail end of Kobe's prime, that might be considered the best of his career, was in essence comparable to past prime Jordan of '96 - '98. He was just flat out the inferior player, and wasn't as great relative to his era.

No need for insecurity, just facts.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe was 23 with 3 rings.
Jordan didn't win anything until he was 27.

They were shook and remained so throughout Kobe's career. :confusedshrug:

http://tiger.towson.edu/~kgalez1/Images/6a00d8341c630a53ef015393735e21970b-600wi.jpg

[mehyaM24]

Chris Webber is Bias in favor of Kareem because he was a big man :lol

Chris Webber also thought he was on the level of Dirk, Timmy D, and KG :roll:

and posters are bias because they sit around on youtube all day watching jordan highlights (swish). what's your point?

you're making my point actually. its simply not a consensus.

[Wade's Rings]

Kobe was 23 with 3 rings.
Jordan didn't win anything until he was 27.

They were shook and remained so throughout Kobe's career. :confusedshrug:

But Jordan had the MVPs, DPOY, FMVPs :confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

so 2 cherry-picked seasons vs. what lebron has been doing his entire career? lmao
Jordan didn't need to play that role his entire career. And is it really cherry picked if he did it for 2x consecutive entire seasons? That's not an anomaly or outlier. It's proof of his all around game, and impact. Don't be a deliberate idiot in order to fit your agenda.

Jordan's vastly superior abilities as a scorer allowed him to focus on that more readily for his team, and allow Pippen to function as well with him at a high level. Thus why he's 6 for 6 in the Finals, and LeBron is 2 for 5.

Because LeBron's jack of all trades, master of none approach requires him to do everything marginalizing fellow great talent and not playing great ball together in complete harmony. He has to do everything, or his impact vanishes. See 2011 Finals.

Thus why even though he palyed with perennial superstars Wade, and Bosh for 4x straight years but only won 2 championships. Wade a top 25 player of all-time, and MVP caliber player when they joined up.

Jordan is widely considered the greatest player of all-time by the majority of fans for good reason.

[Wade's Rings]

and posters are bias because they sit around on youtube all day watching jordan highlights (swish). what's your point?

you're making my point actually. its simply not a consensus.

No you just picked an extremely bias player who has even said he's bias in favor of big men :confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

But Jordan had the MVPs, DPOY, FMVPs :confusedshrug:

Jordan had none of the above at the age of 23. :confusedshrug:

[mehyaM24]

No you just picked an extremely bias player who has even said he's bias in favor of big men :confusedshrug:

grant hill isn't biased. neither is tony from pti, who covered the nba since the early 70s and has jabbar as GOAT.

there is no consensus that jordan is goat. its a myth created by his mythologists on the internet.

[mehyaM24]

Jordan didn't need to play that role his entire career. And is it really cherry picked if he did it for 2x consecutive entire seasons? That's not an anomaly or outlier. It's proof of his all around game, and impact. Don't be a deliberate idiot in order to fit your agenda.

Jordan's vastly superior abilities as a scorer allowed him to focus on that more readily for his team, and allow Pippen to function as well with him at a high level. Thus why he's 6 for 6 in the Finals, and LeBron is 2 for 5.

Because LeBron's jack of all trades, master of none approach requires him to do everything marginalizing fellow great talent and not playing great ball together in complete harmony. He has to do everything, or his impact vanishes. See 2011 Finals.

Thus why even though he palyed with perennial superstars Wade, and Bosh for 4x straight years but only won 2 championships. Wade a top 25 player of all-time, and MVP caliber player when they joined up.

Jordan is widely considered the greatest player of all-time by the majority of fans for good reason.
because of scottie pippen.

its funny though - some claim pippen was being facetious in his claim as the goat franchise player, but if you knew pippen behind the scenes, or at least what was leaked out during the bulls' reign, you would know there's some truth to what he says, from a team-standpoint. just think about this for a second: prior to drafting pippen, the bulls had NEVER won a championship AND were also 1-9 in the playoffs with jordan as their captain.

the very season pippen was drafted, chicago breaks the drought and win their first playoff series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M

in a do-or-die game, pippen delivered the goods - closing out the cavs in epic fashion with his rebounding, assists, steals, blocks (defense) and points. basically his usual self.

the bulls would later go-on to win 6 championships, all with pippen being the lead playmaker, defender, & more importantly, anointed TEAM captain by phil jackson. phil knew pippen's impact went beyond volume scoring, which is why he relied/put so much trust & responsibility onto him.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1996.html
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1997.html

^^^^ checkout pippen's defensive impact during the 2nd three peat. his OVERALL impact was greater than any chicago bull that season, and despite the injuries, which hindered his offense, a top 10 player still and all - the ultimate all-around player.

these are all facts, and are NOT subjective like most of your opinions.

[Wade's Rings]

Jordan had none of the above at the age of 23. :confusedshrug:

Doesn't the Shaq argument come into play?
http://i.imgur.com/4Z9C9hP.jpg

[SamuraiSWISH]

and posters are bias because they sit around on youtube all day watching jordan highlights (swish).
:confusedshrug: you obsessed with the thought of me bro? Disturbing.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe apostles hype up, and tear down other players (not just MJ, they did it in their own era w/ Wade and LeBron) in an attempt to make their dude appear better than he was. Thus maybe perceived insecurity due to Kobe's early age rings he won thanks to a prime Shaq.

Jordan stans however have no need to be insecure about Kobe. He'll always be considered poor man's Jordan, and the debate of him reaching or eclipsing MJ has long past. Too many failures. Not enough winning, accolades, or comparable Jordan esque prime dominance.

That debate has been 6 feet under somwehere since 2008 Finals Loss - 2011 WCSF Loss. A time period at the tail end of Kobe's prime, that might be considered the best of his career, was in essence comparable to past prime Jordan of '96 - '98. He was just flat out the inferior player, and wasn't as great relative to his era.

No need for insecurity, just facts.

Kobe was better than LeBron and Wade too. Iverson, Carter, Mcgrady too. :confusedshrug: . Its reality. Not insecurity . Just facts.

Jordan mythologists whine about Kobe fans following their lead and are too stupid to realize it. :applause:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Doesn't the Shaq argument come into play?
http://i.imgur.com/4Z9C9hP.jpg

It comes into to play for insecure Jordan mythologists sure. Anything to diminish an elite guard stacking rings at a young age. :confusedshrug:

[mehyaM24]

:confusedshrug: you obsessed with the thought of me bro? Disturbing.

truth hurts "coach"?

i got you pegged, and so did your homeboy from the aau.

[Ne 1]

Jordan is definitely consensus better than Magic. And Kareem basically too. He's the consensus GOAT by the vast majority of people.


So? Just because many people in general or of a particular group accept a belief as true doesn't make it a fact. Accepting another person

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe was better than LeBron
Based on what? Rap songs w/ Tyra Banks? Or episode cameos on Moesha?

Statistics? 27/7/7 v.s. 25/5/5
Individual Accomplishments? 4x MVPs v.s. 1 MVP
Playoff Averages? 28/9/7 v.s. 26/5/5
Championships as best player? 2x Rings v.s. 2x Rings

And LeBron is still going ... Kobe however is done. Audi 5000. What's your claim to why Kobe is definitively better than LeBron as a player? This should be a must read.

[Wade's Rings]

[QUOTE=Ne 1]So? Just because many people in general or of a particular group accept a belief as true doesn't make it a fact. Accepting another person

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Based on what?

Statistics? 27/7/7 v.s. 25/5/5
Individual Accomplishments? 4x MVPs v.s. 1 MVP
Playoff Averages? 28/9/7 v.s. 26/5/5
Championships as best player? 2x Rings v.s. 2x Rings

And LeBron is still going ... Kobe however is done. Audi 5000. What's your claim to why Kobe is definitively better than LeBron as a player? This should be a must read.

All Star awards
All NBA awards
All Defensive team awards
Playoff wins against 50+ win teams
Rings
Rings with only 1 HOF teammate
Rings when they were better than prime Shaq

:confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

truth hurts "coach"?

i got you pegged, and so did your homeboy from the aau.
The hell are you talking about kid? plowking told me how you begged his assitance to destory my "ISH credibility" or some shit.

Get off ISH and live life. Don't make up alts claiming to know people at an organization I legitimately worked for ... as if it even remotely matters on here.

It's creepy. I don't know why I'm living in your mind, rent free.

[Wade's Rings]

Based on what? Rap songs w/ Tyra Banks? Or episode cameos on Moesha?

Statistics? 27/7/7 v.s. 25/5/5
Individual Accomplishments? 4x MVPs v.s. 1 MVP
Playoff Averages? 28/9/7 v.s. 26/5/5
Championships as best player? 2x Rings v.s. 2x Rings

And LeBron is still going ... Kobe however is done. Audi 5000. What's your claim to why Kobe is definitively better than LeBron as a player? This should be a must read.

Isn't Bron statistically greater than Mike?

MVP isn't really an individual award because your team record dictates if you get it or not.

[Wade's Rings]

All Star awards
All NBA awards
All Defensive team awards
Playoff wins against 50+ win teams
Rings
Rings with only 1 HOF teammate
Rings when they were better than prime Shaq

:confusedshrug:

You could easily take away Kobe's All NBA & All D awards.

[mehyaM24]

The hell are you talking about kid? plowking told me how you begged his assitance to destory my "ISH credibility" or some shit.

Get off ISH and live life. Don't make up alts claiming to know people at an organization I legitimately worked for ... as if it even remotely matters on here.

It's creepy. I don't know why I'm living in your mind, rent free.

first of all, i didn't "beg" anyone. i simply asked plowking to corroborate you using your kobe alts to debate. nothing to do with the coaching aspect which in and of itself is fvcking hilarious....yet pathetic as well. :wtf:

you don't work for aau or coach for them. never have. never will. your homeboy exposed you, and before that, you were exposed as somebody who openly roots for kobe with an account dedicated to him. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284466

and with your swish account, play objective and hang from jordan's nuts. i dont know how many accounts you own, but you have no room to talk about anyone's credibility. you're the definition of a fraud. :lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

You could easily take away Kobe's All NBA & All D awards.

lol wat

[HOoopCityJones]

You could easily take away Kobe's All NBA & All D awards.

You could easily pretend the NBA does not exist. That doesn't mean it doesn't.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You could easily take away Kobe's All NBA & All D awards.

Another sign of Jordan mythologists insecurity

Trying to take away rings, all nba awards, and all defensive team awards. :oldlol:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Another sign of Jordan mythologists insecurity

Trying to take away rings, all nba awards, and all defensive team awards. :oldlol:

he'll probably tell you Wade deserves Kobe's all defensive team selections even though there were 2 slots for guards every year on the first team and there were several years where Wade couldn't even beat out the likes of Chauncey Billups and Kirk Hinrich for 2nd team

[Wade's Rings]

lol wat

Why did he deserve All NBA 1st Team over Wade in 2011?

Why did he deserve 1st Team All Defense over Wade from 2009-2011?

Hell if you value what Phil says he said Kobe stopped playing defense in the mid 2000s.

[catch24]

first of all, i didn't "beg" anyone. i simply asked plowking to corroborate you using your kobe alts to debate. nothing to do with the coaching aspect which in and of itself is fvcking hilarious....yet pathetic as well. :wtf:

you don't work for aau or coach for them. never have. never will. your homeboy exposed you, and before that, you were exposed as somebody who openly roots for kobe with an account dedicated to him. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284466

and with your swish account, play objective and hang from jordan's nuts. i dont know how many accounts you own, but you have no room to talk about anyone's credibility. you're the definition of a fraud. :lol

What are you talking about? The Mamba is a Kobe fan, and Swish is a Bulls fan. They're both different people who've posted here separately.

[SamuraiSWISH]

All Star awards
:oldlol:

When reaching gets to it's APEX.

LeBron 30 years old
Kobe 37 years old

LeBron has played 12x seasons
Kobe has played 19x seasons

7x more seasons in total.


All NBA awards
LeBron First Team: 9x
Kobe First Team: 11x

Kobe done, LeBron still going ... will surpass


All Defensive team awards
LeBron 1st Team: 5x
Kobe 1st Team: 9x

Kobe done, LeBron still going ... could surpass



Rings with only 1 HOF teammate
Rings when they were better than prime Shaq
Arbitrary ... and the last one, flat out false.

Finals MVP awards
LeBron: 2x
Kobe: 2x

Kobe done, LeBron still going ... could surpass. The structure for which I judged them as players is less arbitrary, and infinitely better measuring tools for their grade on the hierarchy of quality.

[Wade's Rings]

Another sign of Jordan mythologists insecurity

Trying to take away rings, all nba awards, and all defensive team awards. :oldlol:

I'm not a Jordan mythologist :facepalm

I was asking you why Jordan fans would be scared of Kobe after 2002. I never said you can take away his rings.

Yeah you can argue he didn't deserve all of his All NBA & All D awards

[Wade's Rings]

What are you talking about? The Mamba is a Kobe fan, and Swish is a Bulls fan. They're both different people who've posted here separately.

They were shown to be the same person IIRC awhile back.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not a Jordan mythologist :facepalm

I was asking you why Jordan fans would be scared of Kobe after 2002. I never said you can take away his rings.

Yeah you can argue he didn't deserve all of his All NBA & All D awards

I already told you. He had 3 rings by the age of 23. Jordan mythologists felt insecure about so they pretend it doesn't count not because of his actual play but because he wasn't better than prime Shaq at the time. :confusedshrug:

You can argue about any legendary players individual accolades. Legends get the benefit of the doubt. Always have and always will. That didn't start with Kobe.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Why did he deserve All NBA 1st Team over Wade in 2011?

Why did he deserve 1st Team All Defense over Wade from 2009-2011?

Hell if you value what Phil says he said Kobe stopped playing defense in the mid 2000s.

Kobe wasn't the only player getting voted over Wade, there are 2 guard spots.. why is that so difficult to understand, ya'll wanna put Kobe under microscopes and act he didn't deserve those selections..

why not look at Rondo, Paul and Rose too because those were the other guards getting voted over Wade for the years you mentioned??

[mehyaM24]

What are you talking about? The Mamba is a Kobe fan, and Swish is a Bulls fan. They're both different people who've posted here separately.
no offense brah, you seem like a good poster, but did you read the thread i linked????

swish and "the mamba" were proven to be the same person. he admitted so itt. :oldlol: there was also another thread where he was exposed as a fraudulent aau coach. you gotta keep up with the times!!

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:oldlol:

When reaching gets to it's APEX.

LeBron 30 years old
Kobe 37 years old

LeBron has played 12x seasons
Kobe has played 19x seasons

7x more seasons in total.


LeBron First Team: 9x
Kobe First Team: 11x

Kobe done, LeBron still going ... will surpass


LeBron 1st Team: 5x
Kobe 1st Team: 9x

Kobe done, LeBron still going ... could surpass


Arbitrary ... and the last one, flat out false.

Finals MVP awards
LeBron: 2x
Kobe: 2x

Kobe done, LeBron still going ... could surpass. The structure for which I judged them as players is less arbitrary, and infinitely better measuring tools for their grade on the hierarchy of quality.


I never argued that LeBron couldn't pass Kobe. :confusedshrug:

If your structure for judging players only counts rings won as a Finals MVP then its moronic. :confusedshrug:

[Wade's Rings]

You can argue about any legendary players individual accolades. Legends get the benefit of the doubt. Always have and always will. That didn't start with Kobe.

Ok I'll take that..

[SamuraiSWISH]

I never argued that LeBron couldn't pass Kobe. :confusedshrug:
He basically already has ...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

He basically already has ...

If you ignore half of Kobe's career. :applause:

[catch24]

no offense brah, you seem like a good poster, but did you read the thread i linked????

swish and "the mamba" were proven to be the same person. he admitted so itt. :oldlol: there was also another thread where he was exposed as a fraudulent aau coach. you gotta keep up with the times!!

My fault. Damn ISH has fallen off a cliff. Shady characters in this joint lol.

Guess its a good thing I'm not very active here anymore.

[SamuraiSWISH]

catch24 posting again? What's up bro. Long time. And no I admitted to having the screen name "The Mamba" sometime ago.


there was also another thread where he was exposed as a fraudulent aau coach.
This however is completely false. And this creep talking to you is literally obsessed with me.

[mehyaM24]

whatever you say "coach". i wasn't the one caught with multiple screen names.

have fun talking with yourself....

[Inferno]

Bran at his best > Bean at his best, but who's had a better career is a wash right now

[nzahir]

im neutral and id take kobe over lebald

:facepalm
Nobody with real credibility actually has kobe>bron in terms of who is actually better. There isnt an argument for kobe>bron except for rings but if that was the case then russel>mj, which he obviously isnt.
Fmvps=equal, and kobes chances of winning another seem done while lebron has some more shots
Mvps: 4>1 and kobe will never win another
Stats in regular and postseason: Bron>>kobe
Defense: 1 on 1 d: Kobe>Bron. Team d: Bron>kobe. Versatility on D: Bron>kobe. So I have lebron here again
Playmaker: Bron>kobe
Clutch stats: Bron>kobe by a decent margin too, you can look it up or if you really want to I can ether you with them later.

Lebron is also 30 atm and still has more years to even add up to his accolades so lets wait 6 years and see what happens

[HOoopCityJones]

Bran at his best > Bean at his best, but who's had a better career is a wash right now

https://youtu.be/hFj0KUzofNg

I'll take Bean. :confusedshrug:

[Inferno]

https://youtu.be/hFj0KUzofNg

I'll take Bean. :confusedshrug:

Bean's definitely the funner player to watch (:applause: at that video), and more skilled technically, but Bran might just have been a little more dominant at his peak :confusedshrug:

I don't like posting in Kobe vs Bron threads though, because one isn't clearly above the other :confusedshrug:

[Wade's Rings]

Kobe wasn't the only player getting voted over Wade, there are 2 guard spots.. why is that so difficult to understand, ya'll wanna put Kobe under microscopes and act he didn't deserve those selections..

why not look at Rondo, Paul and Rose too because those were the other guards getting voted over Wade for the years you mentioned??

Thing is Rose was MVP in 2011 and his All NBA spot is pretty much reserved leaving only 1 spot open. Why did Kobe still get in then? Do you really think he deserved it over Wade?

Hell in 2009 CP3 wasn't on the 1st Team so Kobe could be on there.

You make a great point but Kobe still didn't deserve to be on there over Wade on the All D teams during the years I mentioned.

[HOoopCityJones]

Bean's definitely the funner player to watch (:applause: at that video), and more skilled technically, but Bran might just have been a little more dominant at his peak :confusedshrug:

I don't like posting in Kobe vs Bron threads though, because one isn't clearly above the other :confusedshrug:

This video isn't even Kobe's peak. He was even more insane than this. :roll:


Bruh, the move @5:30 on Dwight is absolutely legendary. How many Players All time can do that move on a Big? In The Finals?

[Ne 1]

Kareem won an MVP with a losing record.

Voting was done by the players back then. The sportswriters who took over probably had a different criteria than the players.




missed the Playoffs twice in his Prime.

He also had Good squads around him IIRC and couldn't make it past the 2nd Round.

He was actually stuck on mediocre teams for a lot of the decade. The years he missed the playoffs, in 1975 his team was just 3-14 without him, but 35-30 with him. In 1976 he joined a team that had gone 30-52 and he improved them by 10 wins, but due to a ridiculous format that saw teams 38-44 and 36-46 records make the playoffs, He missed the playoffs, despite his team being better than either of those.

As far as not making it past the 2nd round?

1969-1970- If you want to consider his rookie season as part of his prime, he turned an expansion franchise that had just come off a 27-55 inaugural season to a 56-26 team. All of his numbers went way up in the playoffs including scoring, rebounding and FG%. Can't ask for anything more in a rookie season. He averaged 35/17/4 on 57% shooting in the playoffs.

1971-1972- Based on the numbers, he probably should've played better, but the Bucks lost to a 69-13 Lakers team that had a 33 game winning streak during the season.

1972-1973- He played poorly against the Warriors, I won't deny that.

1967-1977- He didn't have a strong cast to begin with so the injuries really hurt. Kareem played out of his mind during the playoffs, but the team was exposed as a one man team. Go watch the 3 playoff games available from this run. Kareem averaged 35/18/4/4 on 61% shooting in the playoffs.

1977-1978- The team started off something like 8-13 without Kareem, yet they ended up 45-37, this should show how great Kareem is and how average this cast was. His playoff numbers were again at least as good as his regular season numbers or better. He averaged 27/14/4/4 on 52% shooting in the playoffs. He also had 5 blocks in the 4th quarter to save his team from getting eliminated.

1978-1979- This Lakers team seriously lacked a power forward which forced Jamaal Wilkes and Adrian Dantley to play the position. Dantley turned into a great scorer, but at this point, he wasn't as great at that yet, and Dantley was a guy who wasn't exactly a well-rounded versatile player. Their back court got lit up by Seattle's as well. Adding Jim Chones and Spencer Haywood in 1980 solved their problems at power forward while Magic gave them more talent and Michael Cooper helped them defensively, that made them a much more well rounded team. But Kareem still raised his game in the playoffs averaging 29/13/5/4 on 58% shooting.

Kareem was out for two extended periods during his prime and his teams were the worst in the league without him (and on pace for around 50 wins with him). People can keep get at him for not winning more in the mid to late 70s but there comes a point where you have to realize your team just sucks and you can't win even if you play like a demi-God, like Kareem did (Jordan in the late 80s for example). Kareem could have won in '74, they made the Finals, and he had one of the most amazing Finals performances ever (33/12/5/4), which included sinking a game winner in a double overtime to keep his team alive, and abusing the entire Celtics front line. But what else can he do in a game 7, when his second best player (aging Oscar) shoots just 2-13? Even Jordan couldn't win game 7s when his team disappeared (Pistons in 1990 for example, something Jordan fans love to use too)

Put up 35/18/4/5 in the playoffs one time but I guess it was his fault because he was swept by Walton's team. Dropped a near 40/20 on Walton in one game for example (I've seen footage of this), got his teammates involved (who would literally shoot air balls), but when he went to the bench, I remember a comical sequence of them turning over the ball 3-4 times in 10 seconds (you must see it to believe it)

[Quizno]

haven't been on ish in weeks and y'all are still ****ing losers arguing over who's better between your own personal hero and somebody else's

"JORDANS STILL THE BEST I SWEAR!!!! HE RETIRED 20 YEARS AGO BUT ILL DEFEND HIM TILL I DIE!!"

****in dweeb

[32jazz]

"greatest bought players of all-time"

Lakers drafetd Magic Johnson when scout Jerry West wanted Sidney Moncrief.

They also drafted Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Gail Goodrich, Norm Nixon ( traded him for Scott after Magic took over PG)Magic Johnson , James Worthy ,traded for Kobe & drafted many of their role players like Cooper,A.C Green ,etc.......


Kareem forced his way out of Milwaukee & Shaq came to LA on his own(who would not want to play for the greatest franchise?),but .......

Where the hell does this "bought" players nonsense come from ?

[Wade's Rings]

He was actually stuck on mediocre teams for a lot of the decade. The years he missed the playoffs, in 1975 his team was just 3-14 without him, but 35-30 with him. In 1976 he joined a team that had gone 30-52 and he improved them by 10 wins, but due to a ridiculous format that saw teams 38-44 and 36-46 records make the playoffs, He missed the playoffs, despite his team being better than either of those.

As far as not making it past the 2nd round?

1969-1970- If you want to consider his rookie season as part of his prime, he turned an expansion franchise that had just come off a 27-55 inaugural season to a 56-26 team. All of his numbers went way up in the playoffs including scoring, rebounding and FG%. Can't ask for anything more in a rookie season. He averaged 35/17/4 on 57% shooting in the playoffs.

1971-1972- Based on the numbers, he probably should've played better, but the Bucks lost to a 69-13 Lakers team that had a 33 game winning streak during the season.

1972-1973- He played poorly against the Warriors, I won't deny that.

1967-1977- He didn't have a strong cast to begin with so the injuries really hurt. Kareem played out of his mind during the playoffs, but the team was exposed as a one man team. Go watch the 3 playoff games available from this run. Kareem averaged 35/18/4/4 on 61% shooting in the playoffs.

1977-1978- The team started off something like 8-13 without Kareem, yet they ended up 45-37, this should show how great Kareem is and how average this cast was. His playoff numbers were again at least as good as his regular season numbers or better. He averaged 27/14/4/4 on 52% shooting in the playoffs. He also had 5 blocks in the 4th quarter to save his team from getting eliminated.

1978-1979- This Lakers team seriously lacked a power forward which forced Jamaal Wilkes and Adrian Dantley to play the position. Dantley turned into a great scorer, but at this point, he wasn't as great at that yet, and Dantley was a guy who wasn't exactly a well-rounded versatile player. Their back court got lit up by Seattle's as well. Adding Jim Chones and Spencer Haywood in 1980 solved their problems at power forward while Magic gave them more talent and Michael Cooper helped them defensively, that made them a much more well rounded team. But Kareem still raised his game in the playoffs averaging 29/13/5/4 on 58% shooting.

Kareem was out for two extended periods during his prime and his teams were the worst in the league without him (and on pace for around 50 wins with him). People can keep get at him for not winning more in the mid to late 70s but there comes a point where you have to realize your team just sucks and you can't win even if you play like a demi-God, like Kareem did (Jordan in the late 80s for example). Kareem could have won in '74, they made the Finals, and he had one of the most amazing Finals performances ever (33/12/5/4), which included sinking a game winner in a double overtime to keep his team alive, and abusing the entire Celtics front line. But what else can he do in a game 7, when his second best player (aging Oscar) shoots just 2-13? Even Jordan couldn't win game 7s when his team disappeared (Pistons in 1990 for example, something Jordan fans love to use too)

Put up 35/18/4/5 in the playoffs one time but I guess it was his fault because he was swept by Walton's team. Dropped a near 40/20 on Walton in one game for example (I've seen footage of this), got his teammates involved (who would literally shoot air balls), but when he went to the bench, I remember a comical sequence of them turning over the ball 3-4 times in 10 seconds (you must see it to believe it)

Impressive summary and stats.

[Wade's Rings]

Lakers drafetd Magic Johnson when scout Jerry West wanted Sidney Moncrief.

They also drafted Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Gail Goodrich, Norm Nixon ( traded him for Scott after Magic took over PG)Magic Johnson , James Worthy ,traded for Kobe & drafted many of their role players like Cooper,A.C Green ,etc.......


Kareem forced his way out of Milwaukee & Shaq came to LA on his own(who would not want to play for the greatest franchise?),but .......

Where the hell does this "bought" players nonsense come from ?

I was referring to SamuraiSwish's post.

[GimmeThat]

can't see how defensive possessions can influence pace. or 'frustrate'.

and perhaps overstate the use of help defense during actual game play. especially without having a coach doing the scouting and pointing out the adjustment during a playoff series.

[1~Gibson~1]

:coleman:


http://oi57.tinypic.com/2yw7gy1.jpg

are you mentally challenged or something

kobes 2 fmvps =

- both in a full season
- both without bail out game winners to save the year
- both without colluding
- both without ring chasing
- both without a single legendary team mates
- both without multiple HOF sidekicks period


lebrons 2 fmvps =

- 1 in a lockout season
- one with a bail out game winner to save the year
- both colluding
- both ring chasing
- both with a legendary team mate
- both with multiple HOF sidekicks in their prime


how on gods green earth are lebrons 2 fmvps even worth a fart in the wind compared to kobes

kobes 2 = hakeem 94
lebrons 2 = no one in nba history has had a worse or more pathetic run



and 3 more rings averaging 25/5/5+ > 3 more regular season PER/popularity stat ESPN voted nominations


nobody wins mvp. and even if they did its for a meaningless regular season http://tiger.towson.edu/%7Ekgalez1/Images/6a00d8341c630a53ef015393735e21970b-600wi.jpg

[32jazz]

I was referring to SamuraiSwish's post.

I thought you were agreeing with that misinformation?

Whom ever said this is greatly mistaken.