Statistical Comparison: 1991, 1993, and 2015 Finals

[3ball]

MJ 1993:. 41.0 PPG,. 8.5 RPG,. 6.3 APG, 50.8% FG, 55.8% TS, 1.7 STL, 0.7 BLK

LBJ 2015: 36.6 PPG, 12.8 RPG,. 8.8 APG, 40.0% FG, 48.5% TS, 1.2 STL, 0.6 BLK

MJ 1991:. 31.2 PPG,. 6.6 RPG, 11.4 APG, 55.8% FG, 61.2% TS, 2.8 STL, 1.4 BLK


Interestingly, it's Lebron's poor isolation FG% that is crippling his overall FG%, since isolation is what Lebron does most often - Lebron's isolates on 33.5% of his possessions, #1 in the league, but only shoots 32.5% (30th out of 40 in playoffs):

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1
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[iTare]

Yes, MJ is the best to ever do it. We get it.

[3ball]

MJ is the best


Agreed.. I give MJ the edge in both series, partially because his better offensive skill and stats (PPG, APG, FG%) represented superior ability to ANSWER the opponents runs at will, and therefore control the game better.. His superior offense allowed him to train the other team to play at his team's pace.. In these Finals, Lebron has finally tasted a little bit of that game control for the first time in his career, but ultimately, his inability to shoot an MJ-like percentage while still undertaking the MJ-like volume has cost him thus far.

Of course, the stats don't account for clutch either - in Game 3 of the 1991 Finals, the Bulls needed MJ to hit the Ray Allen at the buzzer to send the game into overtime, and then take over IN overtime to take a 2-1 lead.. Without that, the Bulls are down 2-1 with the next 2 games in LA (2-3-2 format).. Then in Game 4 of 1993, the Bulls needed MJ to seal the deal on the last possession to cap off his double-nickel and give the Bulls a 3-1 lead.

Also, MJ was 2-4 on three pointers in the 1991 Finals.. He got all his points on two-pointers (where the defense knew he would only take two-pointers).. He certainly didn't get any of the strongside clearouts Lebron has enjoyed all playoffs, where he gets to play his man 1-on-1 all alone on the strongside because defenders are trapped on the far weakside guarding potential 3-pointers.. Here's a thread about Lebron's strongside clearouts:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398

[plowking]

Can you post his 96 stats in the finals?

[branslowski]

Can you post his 96 stats in the finals?

Jordan fans don't do that.:oldlol:

[plowking]

Jordan fans don't do that.:oldlol:

:oldlol:

I'm just wondering how Jordan's 5-19 in the closeout game helped his team win? He must have done something special to help his team win that Bron isn't doing.

[3ball]

Can you post his 96 stats in the finals?


MJ's stats were 32.0 PPG on 46% FG through 3 games to give his team a 3-0 lead - his stats after that are garbage time so they don't matter.. Who cares about your 4th quarter stats when you're up 30 points already, right?.. Those stats are just stat-padding.

Anyway, MJ had his best game on the road in Game 3, specifically because that was the opportunity to go up 3-0 and end the series.. So MJ dropped 36 in the Sonics' building, on all defenders, including Payton.. Most people don't realize that Payton guarded MJ for multiple stretches in each of the first 3 Games.. Otoh, when Lebron had the chance to go up 3-1, he dropped the ball - 20 points and a donut in the 4th.

Of course, in MJ's day, defenders didn't have to guard weakside 3-pointers, so they didn't have to BE on the weakside - they could remain on the strongside and/or in the paint at all times, and therefore closest to help on strongside action..

Contrastingly, today's defenders DO have to guard weakside 3-pointers.. Consequently, you see the kind of clearouts we saw Coach Blatt do for Lebron - the clearouts give Lebron the entire strongside to play 1-on-1, while all 4 help defenders must defend against weakside 3-pointers, and therefore position themselves behind the far side of the paint on the weakside, and furthest from helping on Lebron's strongside penetration.
.

[branslowski]

:oldlol:

I'm just wondering how Jordan's 5-19 in the closeout game helped his team win? He must have done something special to help his team win that Bron isn't doing.

This. Honestly Kobe, Jordan, nor LeBron fans should ever debate about fg% during important finals games cause all 3 players have shot super bricks during those key games....Yet, Jordan fans feel like MJ is God of gods so it becomes blasphemy to even acknowledge any wrong doing that their savior has sh!ted out....MJ fans are worst than Kobe or Bron fans.

[scm5]

This. Honestly Kobe, Jordan, nor LeBron fans should ever debate about fg% during important finals games cause all 3 players have shot super bricks during those key games....Yet, Jordan fans feel like MJ is God of gods so it becomes blasphemy to even acknowledge any wrong doing that their savior has sh!ted out....MJ fans are worst than Kobe or Bron fans.

Remind me, has MJ ever lost a series in the Finals?

[plowking]

MJ's stats were 32.0 PPG on 46% FG through 3 games to give his team a 3-0 lead - his stats after that are garbage time so they don't matter.. Who cares about your 4th quarter stats when you're up 30 points already, right?.. Those stats are just stat-padding.


.

A closeout is a closeout. What did he do to secure the win? A 5/19 performance. How did the Bulls win?

[3ball]

A closeout is a closeout. What did he do to secure the win? A 5/19 performance. How did the Bulls win?
MJ had zero help, but carried his team to a 3-0 lead and inevitable series win with 32 PPG on 46% against the toughest defense in the league.

[plowking]

inevitable series win with 32 PPG on 46% against the toughest defense in the league.

Those aren't his 96 stats.

Post the real ones.

[3ball]

Those aren't his 96 stats.

Post the real ones.
In the 1996 Finals, Pippen's stats were 15 PPG on 34% FG... and 42% TS.

Those aren't typos.. The defense was THAT tough - you've seen the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw


Everyone's stats were horrific except MJ's.. He had zero help, but carried his team to a 3-0 lead and inevitable series win with 32 PPG on 46% against the toughest defense in the league..

^^^ Those are all facts.. No other argument is needed.

[3ball]

Post the real ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw


^^^^ As that video of the Sonics defense shows, defenders in that era didn't have to guard weakside 3-pointers, so they didn't have to BE on the weakside - all defenders remained on the strongside and/or in the paint, and therefore closest to help on strongside action (from the vid):


http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b3a137407d27d606c7deadf6017cad76.gif



Otoh, in today's game, defenders must guard weakside 3-pointers.. To defend weakside 3-pointers, defenders must position themselves behind the far side of the paint on the weakside, therefore leaving the paint wide open while being furthest away to help on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif


With all potential help defenders behind the far side of the paint on the weakside, the paint is left wide open.. MJ never faced a paint that was wide open with no defenders.. EVER.. This is a fact..
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[plowking]

This many posts and still no sign of MJ's 96 finals stats. :oldlol:

MJ fans actually call other groups of fans insecure? Won't even post his stats over 6 games lol...

[Mr Feeny]

This many posts and still no sign of MJ's 96 finals stats. :oldlol:

MJ fans actually call other groups of fans insecure? Won't even post his stats over 6 games lol...

Tbf couldn't you just google it? Or are you just an incapable idiot?

[3ball]

This many posts and still no sign of MJ's 96 finals stats.


I already posted his non-garbage time, non-stat-padding numbers: 32 PPG on 46% FG to get his team a 3-0 lead and the inevitable series win - these are all facts, and they end the argument.

But I'll indulge you - here's each players worst Finals performance:


Jordan 1996:. 27.3 PPG, 53.8% TS

Lebron 2013: 25.3 PPG, 52.9% TS
Lebron 2011: 17.8 PPG, 52.8% TS
Lebron 2007: 22.0 PPG, 42.8% TS

[plowking]

Tbf couldn't you just google it? Or are you just an incapable idiot?

You could also fist yourself, but you get your boyfriend to do it since you like guys with big hands.

[3ball]

I already posted his non-garbage time, non-stat-padding numbers: 32 PPG on 46% FG to get his team a 3-0 lead and the inevitable series win - these are all facts, and they end the argument.

But I'll indulge you - here's each players worst Finals performance:


Jordan 1996:. 27.3 PPG, 53.8% TS

Lebron 2013: 25.3 PPG, 52.9% TS
Lebron 2011: 17.8 PPG, 52.8% TS
Lebron 2007: 22.0 PPG, 42.8% TS


http://img.pandawhale.com/post-40544-Brad-Pitt-is-there-no-one-else-Dkiy.gif

[Mr Feeny]

I already posted his non-garbage time, non-stat-padding numbers: 32 PPG on 46% FG to get his team a 3-0 lead and the inevitable series win - these are all facts, and they end the argument.

But I'll indulge you - here's each players worst Finals performance:


Jordan 1996:. 27.3 PPG, 53.8% TS

Lebron 2013: 25.3 PPG, 52.9% TS
Lebron 2011: 17.8 PPG, 52.8% TS
Lebron 2007: 22.0 PPG, 42.8% TS

You could be pretty insufferable tbf but I'm not sure what his point is? Is he attacking Jordan's performance because of his shooting percentage? That would be asinine seeing as how a 32 year old Jordan shot better than Lebron has thus far in the finals. For their career finals numbers, it isn't even close, either. I wonder whether these kids think before they post, sometimes.

[branslowski]

Tbf couldn't you just google it? Or are you just an incapable idiot?

Really don't care about this debate but I'm assuming he knows the true stats which is why he's off handly calling 3ball a liar. :confusedshrug:

[Mr Feeny]

You're right. I'm an incapable idiot. Now watch me throw out ad hominems to display my conspicuously low IQ

There it is.

[3ball]

I'm assuming he knows the true stats which is why he's off handly calling 3ball a liar.



No, plowking just thinks MJ's career worst averages of 27.3 PPG on 53.8% TS in the 1996 Finals will make MJ look bad... except Lebron has 3 Finals worse than that:


Jordan 1996:. 27.3 PPG, 53.8% TS

Lebron 2013: 25.3 PPG, 52.9% TS
Lebron 2011: 17.8 PPG, 52.8% TS
Lebron 2007: 22.0 PPG, 42.8% TS

[Mr Feeny]

Really don't care about this debate but I'm assuming he knows the true stats which is why he's off handly calling 3ball a liar. :confusedshrug:

As I stated above, that wouldn't make sense. Jordan - in his absolute worst Finals - shot better than Lebron has so far this series. So I'm not sure where that argument is going. If he's arguing that Jordan shot horribly, then that only makes Lebron's shooting all the more egregious.

[Mr Feeny]

No, plowking just thinks MJ's career worst averages of 27.3 PPG on 53.8% TS in the 1996 Finals will make MJ look bad... except Lebron has 3 Finals worse than that:


Jordan 1996:. 27.3 PPG, 53.8% TS

Lebron 2013: 25.3 PPG, 52.9% TS
Lebron 2011: 17.8 PPG, 52.8% TS
Lebron 2007: 22.0 PPG, 42.8% TS

There. We go. Absolutely strange argument there by plow (?) Or whatever his name is.

[DonDadda59]

I already posted his non-garbage time, non-stat-padding numbers: 32 PPG on 46% FG to get his team a 3-0 lead and the inevitable series win - these are all facts, and they end the argument.

But I'll indulge you - here's each players worst Finals performance:


Jordan 1996:. 27.3 PPG, 53.8% TS

Lebron 2013: 25.3 PPG, 52.9% TS
Lebron 2011: 17.8 PPG, 52.8% TS
Lebron 2007: 22.0 PPG, 42.8% TS

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-15-2015/FP-qB0.gif

Do Kobe

[Dr Hawk]

3ball :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[kshutts1]

No, plowking just thinks MJ's career worst averages of 27.3 PPG on 53.8% TS in the 1996 Finals will make MJ look bad... except Lebron has 3 Finals worse than that:


Jordan 1996:. 27.3 PPG, 53.8% TS

Lebron 2013: 25.3 PPG, 52.9% TS
Lebron 2011: 17.8 PPG, 52.8% TS
Lebron 2007: 22.0 PPG, 42.8% TS
No horse in the race, but Jordan led his team in PPG and MPG in those finals. That's it. He's 3rd in RPG and about 20% behind the leader in APG.

Lebron is leading in points, averages more APG than the rest of his team COMBINED, and leading in minutes. He's also only 5% behind the leader in rebounds.

Points and shooting numbers are not the sole measures.

[plowking]

No horse in the race, but Jordan led his team in PPG and MPG in those finals. That's it. He's 3rd in RPG and about 20% behind the leader in APG.

Lebron is leading in points, averages more APG than the rest of his team COMBINED, and leading in minutes. He's also only 5% behind the leader in rebounds.

Points and shooting numbers are not the sole measures.

Incredible how FG%, rebounds and assists just completely go out the window, and you have two idiots in here running around like they proved something. :oldlol:

[3ball]

:lol

[plowking]

There. We go. Absolutely strange argument there by plow (?) Or whatever his name is.

Trying way too hard. It is a message board, names are clearly there for you to see, you've followed me around in threads before trying to get under my skin, and that is the best you come up with?

Pretty cringe, especially since you come off like you think you're good at debating or some shit. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Do Kobe



Here's each players worst Finals performance:


Jordan 1996:. 27.3 PPG, 53.8% TS

Lebron 2013: 25.3 PPG, 52.9% TS
Lebron 2011: 17.8 PPG, 52.8% TS
Lebron 2007: 22.0 PPG, 42.8% TS

Kobe 2008:.. 25.7 PPG, 50.5% TS
Kobe 2004:.. 22.6 PPG, 45.8% TS
Kobe 2000:.. 15.6 PPG, 41.1% TS

[plowking]

Here's each players worst Finals performance:


Jordan 1996:. 27.3 PPG, 53.8% TS

Lebron 2013: 25.3 PPG, 52.9% TS
Lebron 2011: 17.8 PPG, 52.8% TS
Lebron 2007: 22.0 PPG, 42.8% TS

Kobe 2008:.. 25.7 PPG, 50.5% TS
Kobe 2004:.. 22.6 PPG, 45.8% TS
Kobe 2000:.. 15.6 PPG, 41.1% TS

Another BS post by you. Going by TS, that isn't Jordan's worst.

[inclinerator]

3balls dont make me ban you again

[3ball]

Here's each players worst Finals performance:


Jordan 1996:. 27.3 PPG, 53.8% TS

Lebron 2013: 25.3 PPG, 52.9% TS
Lebron 2011: 17.8 PPG, 52.8% TS
Lebron 2007: 22.0 PPG, 42.8% TS

Kobe 2008:.. 25.7 PPG, 50.5% TS
Kobe 2004:.. 22.6 PPG, 45.8% TS
Kobe 2000:.. 15.6 PPG, 41.1% TS




Another BS post by you. Going by TS, that isn't Jordan's worst.


He shot 53.2% TS in 1997 Finals, but he averaged 34 PPG and hit 2 game-winners (Game 1 and the flu game), plus he hit Kerr with the game-winning assist in the final seconds of Game 6 when he got doubled (something Lebron hasn't faced, double-teams).

MJ shot 51.6% TS in 1998 Finals, but again, he averaged 34 PPG and that was the greatest Finals performance of all time, especially with Scottie MIA (15 PPG, 41%) along with Rodman MIA (3 PPG, 7 RPG).. Also, MJ was facing the Utah Jazz's 100.3 playoff DRtg, which is lower than anything Lebron has ever faced in the Finals, including this year's Warriors.. And again, he averaged 34 PPG and executed the greatest clutch the game's ever seen.

You want me to put MJ's 34 PPG and GOAT clutch next to Lebron and Kobe's sub-20 PPG averages?.. :facepalm... And MJ actually won his Finals... Whereas Lebron choked away his chance to go up 3-1 with 20 points in Game 4 (MJ's Finals low was 23), including a donut in the 4th.
.

[Mr Feeny]

Trying way too hard. It is a message board, names are clearly there for you to see, you've followed me around in threads before trying to get under my skin, and that is the best you come up with?

Pretty cringe, especially since you come off like you think you're good at debating or some shit. :oldlol:

It's a basketball message board. Make your point. Ad hominems are the hallmark of kids of who have no idea what to retort with.

Who's following you around? I have not a clue who you are. I like how you've taken it upon yourself to flatter yourself there:oldlol:

And yes, I'm certainly better at debating than you are. That's not saying much, either. Almost everyone I've seen on here (even the hardcore Kobe fanboys such as griff) are able to make coherent arguments. You haven't. So that puts you on the bottom rung of the ladder. Go to bed, kid. Learn to write an intelligible sentence and to form a coherent argument and come back.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The thing people don't mention about Jordan's "bad" playoff series is that he basically never dragged down his team's efficiency - that is, he rarely was LESS efficient than his teammates were if you exclude him, and rarely (only once to my knowledge - 1993 vs. NY) was less efficient than his second option. For example:

1996 Finals:

Jordan - 27.3 ppg/53.8% TS

Pippen - 15.7 pts/42.9% TS

Rest of team minus MJ - 49.5% TS

This same dynamic holds for the '97 Heat series and the '98 Finals vs. Utah as well (these are MJ's three LEAST efficient playoff series). Lebron also is not below his team's efficiency this series, but is much closer to them: Lebron is averaging 48.4% TS, while the rest of his team is averaging 47.1% TS.

And for the record, I think he's having a great Finals - this is just to shut plowking up.

[inclinerator]

http://i.imgur.com/ICnnJyR.gif

[Mr Feeny]

The thing people don't mention about Jordan's "bad" playoff series is that he basically never dragged down his team's efficiency - that is, he rarely was LESS efficient than his teammates were if you exclude him, and rarely (only once to my knowledge - 1993 vs. NY) was less efficient than his second option. For example:

1996 Finals:

Jordan - 27.3 ppg/53.8% TS

Pippen - 15.7 pts/42.9% TS

Rest of team minus MJ - 49.5% TS

This same dynamic holds for the '97 Heat series and the '98 Finals vs. Utah as well (these are MJ's three LEAST efficient playoff series). Lebron also is not below his team's efficiency this series, but is much closer to them: Lebron is averaging 48.4% TS, while the rest of his team is averaging 47.1% TS.

And for the record, I think he's having a great Finals - this is just to shut plowking up.

That's a great point. The 98 ECF finals against Indian was another. Pippen, in particular, was contemptuously awful on the offensive end.