watching the '96 finals...

[germanfellow]

it feels as if the game was much wilder. especially early on, possessions seem to count less, wild 3s are going up and the entire atmosphere is less structured - even though it's, of course, phils triangle on offense...

am i missing something or is the game more under control nowadays??

[OldSchoolBBall]

it feels as if the game was much wilder. especially early on, possessions seem to count less, wild 3s are going up and the entire atmosphere is less structured - even though it's, of course, phils triangle on offense...

am i missing something or is the game more under control nowadays??

The game is definitely more micromanaged by coaches nowadays than it was in the early-mid 90's.

[germanfellow]

3pointer also seems rather under-developed. u get tons of post-ups with help coming one pass away - allowing for open 3s all night ... that clang of the front of the rim...???

[ISHGoat]

Game was less sophisticated back then.

[3ball]

it feels as if the game was much wilder

am i missing something or is the game more under control nowadays??



Defenders in that era didn't have to guard weakside 3-pointers, so they didn't have to BE on the weakside - all defenders remained on the strongside and/or in the paint, and therefore closest to help on strongside action:


http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b3a137407d27d606c7deadf6017cad76.gif



Otoh, in today's game, defenders must guard weakside 3-pointers.. To defend weakside 3-pointers, defenders must position themselves BEHIND the painted area on the far weakside, therefore leaving the paint wide open while being furthest away to help on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif


MJ never faced a paint that was wide open with no defenders.. EVER.. This is a fact.. He also never faced a strongside and paint that were both completely empty with zero help defenders - there was no weakside spacing to take potential help defenders to the weakside and clear the paint like today's game - in MJ's era, help defenders stayed on the strongside and in the paint at all times.

People counter by saying the help defenders MJ faced on the strongside were guarding other players.. But so are today's help defenders - they have a man they're guarding too, but they must guard them on the weakside, and therefore further away from helping on the strongside.. That's the effect of spacing - it makes defenders help from further away.

[theaussieguy]

Defenders in that era didn't have to guard weakside 3-pointers, so they didn't have to BE on the weakside - all defenders remained on the strongside and/or in the paint, and therefore closest to help on strongside action:


http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b3a137407d27d606c7deadf6017cad76.gif



Otoh, in today's game, defenders must guard weakside 3-pointers.. To defend weakside 3-pointers, defenders must position themselves BEHIND the painted area on the far weakside, therefore leaving the paint wide open while being furthest away to help on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif


MJ never faced a paint that was wide open with no defenders.. EVER.. This is a fact.. He also never faced a strongside and paint that were both completely empty with zero help defenders - there was no weakside spacing to take potential help defenders to the weakside and clear the paint like today's game - in MJ's era, help defenders stayed on the strongside and in the paint at all times.

People counter by saying the help defenders MJ faced on the strongside were guarding other players.. But so are today's help defenders - they have a man they're guarding too, but they must guard them on the weakside, and therefore further away from helping on the strongside.. That's the effect of spacing - it makes defenders help from further away.

this, couldn't have said it better myself, game is far easier today because of spacing, marshmellow superstars in a cushy era, other than Curry and Bryant of course

[Kvnzhangyay]

this, couldn't have said it better myself, game is far easier today because of spacing, marshmellow superstars in a cushy era, other than Curry and Bryant of course

I honestly think that the people who say the game is easier today are either teens or they peaked in their childhood and want to live in the good 'ol past

[jstern]

I honestly think that the people who say the game is easier today are either teens or they peaked in their childhood and want to live in the good 'ol past

Yet remarkably, the majority of people who say that the game is better today, and that past players and stars were bad are early 20s, teens, and preteens, who have never seen those players play.

I mean seriously. How can you logically think that teens are going to be saying that the only players that they know and love are inferior to players from the past that they don't know about, going up against defenders that they never heard about.

[riseagainst]

game was less sophisticated back then.

[3ball]

Some misinformation itt
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Yet remarkably, the majority of people who say that the game is better today, and that past players and stars were bad are early 20s, teens, and preteens, who have never seen those players play.

I mean seriously. How can you logically think that teens are going to be saying that the only players that they know and love are inferior to players from the past that they don't know about, going up against defenders that they never heard about.

That's not necessarily true. I have a cousin who recently graduated high school, and just finished 2nd year of college. I talked to him like, last year I think?, and he said that a remarkable amount of teens actually think the past is better than the present, just because it's "cool" and "different". This is in NY though, so obv not representative (I mean, why wouldn't Knicks fans want to dwell in the past? :lol )

Don't ask me though, I'm not sure why, it just is :confusedshrug:

[Smook B]

3ball

[dankok8]

3ball greatly exaggerates the "strongside defender" argument and tries to prove it by using carefully selected GIF's from both eras. I'll tell you I've seen Lebron face packed paints many many times and the idea that there is no help on his drives is ludicrous. I've also seen MJ blow by to a wide open basket times and times again. 3ball brings a valid point but he overexaggerates it to unbelievable proportions. In today's game teams are allowed to play zone and if you don't have shooters on the weakside, you're ****ED!!! Either way the difference between eras isn't that big but defensive strategies especially against different types of offensive players (like Jordan and Lebron) are very different.

Anyways how much of this "1 defender strongside" type of tactic is due to Lebron James? Would the defense be nearly as scared of leaving shooters open when Kobe or Jordan had the ball. No... because those guys don't have the court vision that Lebron has. How many times have we seen MJ throw a cross court pass to a shooter like Lebron does many many times each game? Honestly I can't recall any instances. Not that it never happened but Jordan was neither as willing or as capable of a passer that Lebron is. And so he was naturally defended differently. Until Pippen became an adept ball handler and playmaker (and even after...) getting the ball out of Jordan's hands was the right move. But getting the ball out of Lebron's hands is NOT the right move. He will burn you with his passing a lot more!

Yes Jordan was a much better ISO scorer than Lebron. Lebron is a better playmaker so much that going for single coverage at times can be a good option.

3ball talks about how Jordan is different and a ruthless scorer with a different mentality than Lebron and then he complains that they don't face the same defense. A square peg for a square hole. A round peg for a round hole. Jordan would never be guarded the way Lebron is or Lebron the way was Jordan was... Not by any smart defensive coach anyways.

[jstern]

That's not necessarily true. I have a cousin who recently graduated high school, and just finished 2nd year of college. I talked to him like, last year I think?, and he said that a remarkable amount of teens actually think the past is better than the present, just because it's "cool" and "different". This is in NY though, so obv not representative (I mean, why wouldn't Knicks fans want to dwell in the past? :lol )

Don't ask me though, I'm not sure why, it just is :confusedshrug:

Well, I live in NY to, and today's kids are obsessed with "handles" dribbling a million times under the legs, behind the back, and then taking a shot. When they pick a players name to be with they play basketball, they're picking current players name. And yesterday I was playing NBA 2k15 with my cousin's son, he would literally press the "handles" button over and over, and over for 20 seconds and then presses the shoot button. Not creating plays, not doing anything but that.

These kids don't know anything about past players.

Perhaps the hardcore young basketball fan might know, due to a much higher interest in the sport, but not your average young person. Heck, not even your average older person.

[3ball]

in today's game, if you don't have shooters on the weakside, you're ****ED!!!


Exactly, because you wouldn't have weakside spacing like the other team would, so the other team would score much easier.

But in the 80's and 90's, teams DIDN'T have those shooters - teams only attempted 2 three-pointers per game in 1985, compared to 22 per game today.

So in 1985, there was essentially no 3-point shooting AT ALL... With no 3-point shooting, it was impossible for MJ to get the type of clearouts you see Lebron enjoy today.

[3ball]

Anyways how much of this "1 defender strongside" type of tactic is due to Lebron James?


Exactly - the reason teams aren't double-teaming Lebron's isolations is because he's a HORRIBLE isolation player - he only shoots 32.5% on isolations, which is far below league-average.. Teams would be foolish to double team anyone who shoots so poorly.

Since the Cavs find success with Lebron isolating at such low efficiency, we know that MJ's far superior isolation ability would have an astronomical effect against these porous, 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398).. After all, he was accustomed to destroying 5-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21).

5-defender strongsides and no spacing, along with higher physicality and legal paint-camping is a totally different game altogether - it's the advanced version of the game - not as pretty, but harder for the participants.
.

[3ball]

The post on the previous page with the GIFs showed how today's game has weakside spacing and therefore less strongside defenders.. Whereas in previous eras, there was no weakside spacing so defenders remained on the strongside - strongsides that contained all 5 defenders were the standard.. But how does that answer my question about how the game was more hectic and frantic back then?


The higher concentration of defenders on the strongside made penetration and effective ball movement harder to accomplish - it's harder to effectively move the ball on 5-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21) than it is on 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398).

With penetration and effective ball movement less viable options due to the lack of spacing, guys were more desperate and frantic to find clean looks.. They couldn't wait around and attack the defense at the optimal moment like today's spacing allows.. There WAS no spacing, and if you waited around too long, you risked the shot clock going off and getting embarrassed like a junior high team..

That's what the game looks like when players are forced to play the game with no spacing, which is basketball at it's ADVANCED LEVEL (like a video game) - guys start making mistakes and looking more frantic at the higher difficulty level.. That's the effect of no spacing, higher physicality, and legal paint-camping - all of a sudden the easy screen roll play isn't so easy and not even a viable play anymore.. So what then?.. The player must find a way to make a play, or just go 1-on-1.. That's no spacing for you.. It's not more pretty, but the players that played that version of the game were playing the hardest version.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Well, I live in NY to, and today's kids are obsessed with "handles" dribbling a million times under the legs, behind the back, and then taking a shot. When they pick a players name to be with they play basketball, they're picking current players name. And yesterday I was playing NBA 2k15 with my cousin's son, he would literally press the "handles" button over and over, and over for 20 seconds and then presses the shoot button. Not creating plays, not doing anything but that.

These kids don't know anything about past players.

Perhaps the hardcore young basketball fan might know, due to a much higher interest in the sport, but not your average young person. Heck, not even your average older person.

True, you may have a point. I don't really talk basketball except with people that I feel also know basketball pretty well

[sdot_thadon]

Exactly - the reason teams aren't double-teaming Lebron's isolations is because he's a HORRIBLE isolation player - he only shoots 32.5% on isolations, which is far below league-average.. Teams would be foolish to double team anyone who shoots so poorly.

Since the Cavs find success with Lebron isolating at such low efficiency, we know that MJ's far superior isolation ability would have an astronomical effect against these porous, 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570).. After all, he was accustomed to destroying 5-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21).

5-defender strongsides and no spacing, along with higher physicality and legal paint-camping is a totally different game altogether - it's the advanced version of the game - not as pretty, but harder for the participants.
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Funny I could have sworn it was due to them having an elite defender in iggy to go one on one and live with the results, rather than send much help and have him pick your coverage apart with his passing. And it would serve the dual role of getting offense out of guys that can't get it otherwise....

Oh and did you say teams? As in plural?

[Hey Yo]

Some misinformation itt
.
It wasn't misinformation. You quoted a post that the OP/germanfellow never made.

BUSTED....:roll:


where is the below post on the first page?

Originally Posted by germanfellow

The post on the previous page with the GIFs showed how today's game has weakside spacing and therefore less strongside defenders.. Whereas in previous eras, there was no weakside spacing so defenders remained on the strongside - strongsides that contained all 5 defenders were the standard.. But how does that answer my question about how the game was more hectic and frantic back then?

[deja vu]

The game is still the same. Only rules have changed to favor perimeter players.

[3ball]

Oh and did you say teams? As in plural?


Yes, Atlanta played him single-coverage as well - Lebron faced 1-defender strongsides for the entire Atlanta series as well..

There was a whole thread on it, showing many GIFs of countless isolations against 1-defender strongsides:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif


an elite defender in iggy to go one on one and live with the results



Lebron is shooting 32.5% on isolations for this entire playoffs - it isn't just Iggy making him shoot badly on isolations:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1


Lebron has ALWAYS been a horrible isolation player.. His isolation FG% in the regular season ranked 117th out of 350, while his points-per-possession (PPP) ranked 78th out of 350.. In these playoffs, his rankings are even worse.

Btw, make sure you're perceiving the situation correctly - today's game has 3-point shooting and weakside spacing, so the types of 1-on-1 clearouts Lebron has been enjoying are ALWAYS an option - teams always have the option of forcing all 4 help defenders to position themselves behind the paint on the far weakside (see GIF above).

This kind of clearout leaves the paint open and forces defenders to help on strongside action from the furthest possible distance (behind the paint on the weakside).. This type of clearout is available at all times because today's 3-point shooting skill enables it - but again, teams won't double-team to prevent it against a player like Lebron, who is a horrific isolation player - they will let him keep digging his own low-efficiency, isolation grave.
.

[sdot_thadon]

Yes, Atlanta played him single-coverage as well - Lebron faced 1-defender strongsides for the entire Atlanta series as well..

There was a whole thread on it, showing many GIFs of countless isolations against 1-defender strongsides:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570



Lebron is shooting 32.5% on isolations for this entire playoffs - it isn't just Iggy making him shoot badly on isolations:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1


Lebron has ALWAYS been a horrible isolation player.. His isolation FG% in the regular season ranked 117th out of 350, while his points-per-possession (PPP) ranked 78th out of 350.. In these playoffs, his rankings are even worse.

Btw, make sure you're perceiving the situation correctly - today's game has 3-point shooting and weakside spacing, so the types of 1-on-1 clearouts Lebron has been enjoying are ALWAYS an option - teams always have the option of forcing all 4 help defenders to position themselves behind the paint on the far weakside (see GIF above).

This kind of clearout leaves the paint open and forces defenders to help on strongside action from the furthest possible distance (behind the paint on the weakside).. This type of clearout is available at all times because today's 3-point shooting skill enables it - but again, teams won't double-team to prevent it against a player like Lebron, who is a horrific isolation player - they will let him keep digging his own low-efficiency, isolation grave.
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So with all this investigating and gif making you mean to tell me you can't make a simple deduction that perhaps they single cover him because they fear him making his undermanned team better with his playmaking? Well damn genius, we'd have never guessed that without your help.......this guy :rolleyes:

[tmacattack33]

Defenders in that era didn't have to guard weakside 3-pointers, so they didn't have to BE on the weakside - all defenders remained on the strongside and/or in the paint, and therefore closest to help on strongside action:


http://www.gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/b3a137407d27d606c7deadf6017cad76.gif



Otoh, in today's game, defenders must guard weakside 3-pointers.. To defend weakside 3-pointers, defenders must position themselves BEHIND the painted area on the far weakside, therefore leaving the paint wide open while being furthest away to help on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif


MJ never faced a paint that was wide open with no defenders.. EVER.. This is a fact.. He also never faced a strongside and paint that were both completely empty with zero help defenders - there was no weakside spacing to take potential help defenders to the weakside and clear the paint like today's game - in MJ's era, help defenders stayed on the strongside and in the paint at all times.

People counter by saying the help defenders MJ faced on the strongside were guarding other players.. But so are today's help defenders - they have a man they're guarding too, but they must guard them on the weakside, and therefore further away from helping on the strongside.. That's the effect of spacing - it makes defenders help from further away.

You picked a play with a play with Jordan running through a pick and compared it to an isolation play.

3 point shooting is more prominent today, but LOL at you using these two clips to prove your point.

[LBJFTW]

3ball greatly exaggerates the "strongside defender" argument and tries to prove it by using carefully selected GIF's from both eras. I'll tell you I've seen Lebron face packed paints many many times and the idea that there is no help on his drives is ludicrous. I've also seen MJ blow by to a wide open basket times and times again. 3ball brings a valid point but he overexaggerates it to unbelievable proportions. In today's game teams are allowed to play zone and if you don't have shooters on the weakside, you're ****ED!!! Either way the difference between eras isn't that big but defensive strategies especially against different types of offensive players (like Jordan and Lebron) are very different.

Anyways how much of this "1 defender strongside" type of tactic is due to Lebron James? Would the defense be nearly as scared of leaving shooters open when Kobe or Jordan had the ball. No... because those guys don't have the court vision that Lebron has. How many times have we seen MJ throw a cross court pass to a shooter like Lebron does many many times each game? Honestly I can't recall any instances. Not that it never happened but Jordan was neither as willing or as capable of a passer that Lebron is. And so he was naturally defended differently. Until Pippen became an adept ball handler and playmaker (and even after...) getting the ball out of Jordan's hands was the right move. But getting the ball out of Lebron's hands is NOT the right move. He will burn you with his passing a lot more!

Yes Jordan was a much better ISO scorer than Lebron. Lebron is a better playmaker so much that going for single coverage at times can be a good option.

3ball talks about how Jordan is different and a ruthless scorer with a different mentality than Lebron and then he complains that they don't face the same defense. A square peg for a square hole. A round peg for a round hole. Jordan would never be guarded the way Lebron is or Lebron the way was Jordan was... Not by any smart defensive coach anyways.

And yet despite what type of defense was being thrown at each player, one was able to demonstrate 6/6 perfection despite all the hard fouls and hand checking that was allow while the other has demonstrated that 33% shooting on 34 attempts is not the answer to GSW defense.

[dankok8]

Exactly, because you wouldn't have weakside spacing like the other team would, so the other team would score much easier.

But in the 80's and 90's, teams DIDN'T have those shooters - teams only attempted 2 three-pointers per game in 1985, compared to 22 per game today.

So in 1985, there was essentially no 3-point shooting AT ALL... With no 3-point shooting, it was impossible for MJ to get the type of clearouts you see Lebron enjoy today.

Exactly - the reason teams aren't double-teaming Lebron's isolations is because he's a HORRIBLE isolation player - he only shoots 32.5% on isolations, which is far below league-average.. Teams would be foolish to double team anyone who shoots so poorly.

Since the Cavs find success with Lebron isolating at such low efficiency, we know that MJ's far superior isolation ability would have an astronomical effect against these porous, 1-defender strongsides.. After all, he was accustomed to destroying 5-defender strongsides.

5-defender strongsides and no spacing, along with higher physicality and legal paint-camping is a totally different game altogether - it's the advanced version of the game - not as pretty, but harder for the participants.




You are looking at 1-man strongside defense as an argument against Lebron. I'm looking at it as an argument FOR Lebron as well. You see if this was Carmelo Anthony or even Kobe Bryant they would be doubled all the time because they can't hurt the defense with their passing the way Lebron can. That's a fact...

Golden State can also afford to do this because they have Igoudala and Thompson who are two of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Put an average NBA player on Bron one-on-one and such a team would get wrecked.

And trust me... there is a lot of help when Lebron drives in or posts near the basket. It's an iso on the perimeter but in the mid-range/aka MJ's office... he sees plenty of double teams and the defense collapses rather quickly.

Enough exaggeration please...

[3ball]

you can't make a simple deduction that perhaps they single cover him because they fear him making his playmaking?


I don't have to say "perhaps"... I know for a FACT that Lebron shoots 32.5% on isolations WITHOUT being doubled.. It's always optimal to let a guy shoot 32.5% - that will always be better than ANY other option - this is not disputable.. Teams have decided not to double him because it's better to let him build a house with his 32.5% brick rate.

Teams are simply exploiting his horrible isolation ability and lack of sophisticated repertoire.. Last year, they exploited his passivity.. This year they exploit his weak and unsophisticated iso-game.

If he shot 60% like MJ did in 1-on-1 situations, then they WOULD need to double team him... But Lebron is only shooting 32.5%... The decision to not double is because of this horrific percentage - it has nothing to do with his passing ability, which is inferior to MJ's anyway (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/).
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