John Havlicek 8-0

[nycelt84]

John Havlicek had a career record of 8-0 in the NBA Finals and was the best player on the '68, 69, 74 and 76 championship Celtics teams. Might have also been the best on the '66 team.

With all the emphasis on Jordan's 6-0 record, is it possible that Havlicek might be underrated and should be mentioned in the same regard as guys like Jordan due to his sterling Finals record?

[kennethgriffin]

he needed that league mvp atleast once though


anyone in the top 10 needs atleast 1 and multiple FMVP's ( atleast from guys who won during years there was an award ) he also only has 1 fmvp


this is what killed his 8-0

[nycelt84]

Had there been a Finals MVP award in '68, Havlicek would have won it. If 1969 wasn't the first year a Finals MVP award was ever given, Havlicek would have won that too.

Voters wanted to give the 1973 MVP to a Celtic,but the players chose the wrong guy since John was the team's best player.

[STATUTORY]

I tend to discount accolades from pre merger era heavily

[DonDadda59]

John Havlicek had a career record of 8-0 in the NBA Finals and was the best player on the '68, 69, 74 and 76 championship Celtics teams. Might have also been the best on the '66 team.

With all the emphasis on Jordan's 6-0 record, is it possible that Havlicek might be underrated and should be mentioned in the same regard as guys like Jordan due to his sterling Finals record?

Been on the record here that Hondo is underrated as phuck by ignorant 'basketball fans'. Same with Moses Malone.

But he's nowhere near the caliber of a Jordan, more along the lines of Kobe- started as role player, moved on to second option, then eventually became the man on his squad.

[Derka]

I tend to discount accolades from pre merger era heavily
This explains a lot.

[NBASTATMAN]

he needed that league mvp atleast once though


anyone in the top 10 needs atleast 1 and multiple FMVP's ( atleast from guys who won during years there was an award ) he also only has 1 fmvp


this is what killed his 8-0


i thought MVP's dont count.. :roll:

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I think most NBA fans have heard of the name :confusedshrug:

I don't think he's underrated if that's what you are saying. I knew about him and so do most legitimate NBA fans.

[NBASTATMAN]

Been on the record here that Hondo is underrated as phuck by ignorant 'basketball fans'. Same with Moses Malone.

But he's nowhere near the caliber of a Jordan, more along the lines of Kobe- started as role player, moved on to second option, then eventually became the man on his squad.


:cheers:

I AGREE

[Ne 1]

I tend to discount accolades from pre merger era heavily


You make a good point. Isn't bragging about championships won half a century ago the same thing Boston fans complain about when it comes to Yankees fans? Yet they bring up the Celtics dominance during the '50s/'60s.

How are we going to speak about what happened in the NBA during the 1950s/1960s when the league had 8 teams made up of guys who were ex-military personnel, and guys like Dolph Schayes and Bob Ferry at center. These were times when players just smoked cigarettes at halftime. When today they discuss what game strategies are working and what is not, make adjustments on offense and defense, review their game plans, match-ups etc.

[DonDadda59]

You make a good point. Isn't bragging about championships won half a century ago the same thing Boston fans complain about when it comes to Yankees fans? Yet they bring up the Celtics dominance during the '50s/'60s.

How are we going to speak about what happened in the NBA during the 1950s/1960s when the league had 8 teams made up of guys who were ex-military personnel, and guys like Dolph Schayes and Bob Ferry at center. These were times when players just smoked cigarettes at halftime. When today they discuss what game strategies are working and what is not, make adjustments on offense and defense, review their game plans, match-ups etc.

Same height as Draymond Green (Ferry was taller) who started at center the last 3 games for the champion Warriors :yaohappy:

[STATUTORY]

Same height as Draymond Green (Ferry was taller) who started at center the last 3 games for the champion Warriors :yaohappy:

height isn't the only salient attribute that matters doe

[KevinNYC]

Havlicek made his NBA debut in 1962.

He retired in 1978 after playing all 82 games and averaging 34 minutes a game.

He said if he knew the Celtics were going to get Larry Bird, he wouldn't have retired. :wtf:

:bowdown:
:bowdown:
:bowdown:

That's amazing.

Also makes you appreciate Kareem more too. Incredible.

[CavaliersFTW]

height isn't the only salient attribute that matters doe
Let's be real you write off the era of Wilt, Russell, West, Robertson, and Baylor

...cause they were so good it isn't fair :oldlol:

[Ne 1]

Same height as Draymond Green (Ferry was taller) who started at center the last 3 games for the champion Warriors :yaohappy:

And do you really think these guys were as athletic as Draymond Green?

http://familyhistoryinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/boby-ferry-college-2.png

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/181324378826-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

[STATUTORY]

Let's be real you write off the era of Wilt, Russell, West, Robertson, and Baylor

...cause they were so good it isn't fair :oldlol:

I can't pinpoint where to draw the line but when I watch game footage from the 60s it's clear to me that the talent isn't the same.

I struggle to see how bob cousy for example could ever play in today's game

the guys you listed are good, but their margin over todays player is smaller than the margin over the player of their era.

[CavaliersFTW]

And do you really think these guys were as athletic as Draymond Green?

Overwhelming majority of the bigs in the 60's were, and all of them were taller - that's pre merger, you lose :lol

Zelmo Beatty was more physically imposing than the Warriors front line this finals :lol

[DonDadda59]

And do you really think these guys were as athletic as Draymond Green?

http://familyhistoryinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/boby-ferry-college-2.png

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/181324378826-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

I have no clue :confusedshrug:

But I know Wilt Chamberlain definitely was. Taller than 6'7" at center too.

[Ne 1]

I have no clue :confusedshrug:

But I know Wilt Chamberlain definitely was. Taller than 6'7" at center too.

Wilt Chamberlain, who said he would rather lose than win, because there is less pressure to continue to win, if you lose or that he liked losing more than winning because there's less pressure on losers. (something like that, I can't remember the exact quote). :lol

[HOoopCityJones]

Wilt Chamberlain, who said he would rather lose than win, because there is less pressure to continue to win, if you lose or because there's less pressure on losers. (something like that, I cannot remember the exact quote). :lol

Lebron said something similar last night. :biggums:

[CavaliersFTW]

I can't pinpoint where to draw the line but when I watch game footage from the 60s it's clear to me that the talent isn't the same.

I struggle to see how bob cousy for example could ever play in today's game

the guys you listed are good, but their margin over todays player is smaller than the margin over the player of their era.
Struggles to see how a guy who passes like Magic Johnson and looks like Steve Nash has NBA talent..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-xa6546ixc

K

That's why you don't evaluate NBA talent for a living.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt Chamberlain, who said he would rather lose than win, because there is less pressure to continue to win, if you lose or that he liked losing more than winning because there's less pressure on losers. (something like that, I can't remember the exact quote). :lol
"My record('s) mean nothing, would rather have the NBA title"

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=cuNIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=NgINAAAAIBAJ&dq=allintext:+wilt+chamberlain+blocked+shots&pg=2612,1404720&hl=en

You mean the guy who said that?

The quote you're referring to was specifically applied to his 33 game win streak late in his career. The context was he felt it was almost a relief that the 33 game streak ended because the pressure just kept building every time they won. He got a title that year, and FMVP, what a loser.

[Bernkastel]

At minimum in the top 15. Wouldn't shock me if people placed him in the lower-end top ten.

[STATUTORY]

Struggles to see how a guy who passes like Magic Johnson and looks like Steve Nash has NBA talent..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-xa6546ixc

K

That's why you don't evaluate NBA talent for a living.

I guess you are real impressed by And1 tapes then :rolleyes: compilation of flashy passes against subpar competition don't mean shit

I look at his fundamentals, strength, and quickness and it's clear he wouldn't even last an AAU summer camp much less the league

and he looks like steve nash only in the most superficial and shallow sense, both white.

but nash didn't dribble like this

http://oi33.tinypic.com/25q817l.jpg

I wouldn't conflate *********ing to old ass nba clips with evaluating basketball talent champ

[SHAQisGOAT]

When considering everything... 4th all-time best SF in my book, had a very good peak too.

I think you're stretching the number of seasons where he was the best player on some of those championship squads though, at least clear-cut best...

Another thing missing for him is that MVP, at best he was 4th in '72... If he had one I'd probbly put him above Dr J, even if I'd still would've went with Erving in terms of peaks.

[DMV2]

This explains a lot.
He has a point though.

8 total teams....3/4th of them consisted of short white guys.


That's the only explanation for Chamberlain averaging 50 PPG and 25 RPG. Once the talent pool condensed in the postseason, his average dropped by like two-thirds. lol

Hate to break it to you, Celtics guy, but those 8 straight championships are extremely overrated.

[CavaliersFTW]

I guess you are real impressed by And1 tapes then :rolleyes: compilation of flashy passes against subpar competition don't mean shit

I look at his fundamentals, strength, and quickness and it's clear he wouldn't even last an AAU summer camp much less the league

and he looks like steve nash only in the most superficial and shallow sense, both white.

but nash didn't dribble like this

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me8j3est6g1qcmnsoo2_400.gif

I wouldn't conflate *********ing to old ass nba clips with evaluating basketball talent champ
What do and 1 tapes have to do with footage of NBA players leading fast breaks during NBA basketball games?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-xa6546ixc

Cousy was a ****ing baller :rockon:

[CavaliersFTW]

He has a point though.

8 total teams....3/4th of them consisted of short white guys.


That's the only explanation for Chamberlain averaging 50 PPG and 25 RPG. Once the talent pool condensed in the postseason, his average dropped by like two-thirds. lol

Hate to break it to you, Celtics guy, but those 8 straight championships are extremely overrated.
57% of the league was black in the 60's, the number jumps to nearly 70% in the 70's. League went from 8 teams to 17, plus the ABA's handful of teams. ABA was also about 70% black.

This is all "pre-merger"

Your statements are false.

[oarabbus]

"Conflate" "salient" lots of good ISH vocab in this topic :applause:

[Overdrive]

And do you really think these guys were as athletic as Draymond Green?

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/181324378826-0-1/s-l1000.jpg


And here's your super athletic...



































2015 All-NBA 1st team center

http://cdn.slamonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/marc-gasol.jpg

[SHAQisGOAT]

I guess you are real impressed by And1 tapes then compilation of flashy passes against subpar competition don't mean shit

I look at his fundamentals, strength, and quickness and it's clear he wouldn't even last an AAU summer camp much less the league

and he looks like steve nash only in the most superficial and shallow sense, both white.

but nash didn't dribble like this

I wouldn't conflate *********ing to old ass nba clips with evaluating basketball talent champ

Havlicek played from 1962 until 1978, still putting up 16/4/4/1 at 38 years old, two years prior to Bird and Magic making their pro-debut... Same Bird and Magic who were still beasts with Jordan in the league, same Jordan who's considered GOAT by most and was still schooling youngtas at 40 and all banged up, in the 2000's...
^Few "examples" out of many...

How about some 70's basketball gifs, when Hondo was at his best?

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-04-2014/y3nP5M.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-24-2014/H3B8xD.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-25-2014/ZMepjG.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-24-2014/bHkrWo.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-23-2014/vcl3Lg.gif

https://i.imgflip.com/2o33d.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-24-2014/HAyGCB.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-24-2014/wgVy8i.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-25-2014/uibBCN.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/11-25-2014/arMUv2.gif

[STATUTORY]

What do and 1 tapes have to do with footage of NBA players leading fast breaks during NBA basketball games?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-xa6546ixc

Cousy was a ****ing baller :rockon:
we won't convince each other, I personally don't value accolades from the pre merger era as much,

I'm sure Hondo would be a fine player today. I'm just explaining why he doesn't get mentioned as much, probably because a lot of people also discount the stats from that era

[DMV2]

57% of the league was black in the 60's, the number jumps to nearly 70% in the 70's. League went from 8 teams to 17, plus the ABA's handful of teams. ABA was also about 70% black.

This is all "pre-merger"

Your statements are false.
That's the early 70's....right before the merger.

Celtics won their 8 straight title in the 60's....with only 57% being small white dudes isn't impressive at all.

[CavaliersFTW]

Pre Merger bigs:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-71nPCj0Znfo/VSCjQGqaBkI/AAAAAAAAF_s/zUCUTROlYAQ/s800/Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar-vs-Wilt-Chamberlain-jump-off_art.jpg


Modern bigs:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/06/26/article-0-1A85EF1D000005DC-203_634x763.jpg

:lol

[CavaliersFTW]

That's the early 70's....right before the merger.

Celtics won their 8 straight title in the 60's....with only 57% being small white dudes isn't impressive at all.
You got the number backwards.

[DMV2]

Havlicek, Russell, Chamberlain, Mikan are all All-Time Top 10 in the Pioneer/Developing Era (pre-1976 or before Bird-Magic).

But they don't belong in the Modern Era(1976-present, or Bird-Magic) Top 10 list though.

There should be two All-Time lists to be honest.

[TripleA]

Pre Merger bigs:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-71nPCj0Znfo/VSCjQGqaBkI/AAAAAAAAF_s/zUCUTROlYAQ/s800/Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar-vs-Wilt-Chamberlain-jump-off_art.jpg


Modern bigs:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/06/26/article-0-1A85EF1D000005DC-203_634x763.jpg

:lol

Yah i do not know why people hate on old bigs because their postions compare best to modern times.:D with 6,7 centers

[CavaliersFTW]

Havlicek, Russell, Chamberlain, Makin are all All-Time Top 10 in the Pioneer/Developing Era (pre-1976 or before Bird-Magic).

But they don't belong in the Modern Era(1976-present, or Bird-Magic) Top 10 list though.

There should be two All-Time lists to be honest.
I agree it def isn't fair to compare players like this.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-71nPCj0Znfo/VSCjQGqaBkI/AAAAAAAAF_s/zUCUTROlYAQ/s800/Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar-vs-Wilt-Chamberlain-jump-off_art.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/06/26/article-0-1A85EF1D000005DC-203_634x763.jpg

:oldlol:

[Jameerthefear]

https://youtu.be/GSpY-zRYK1Y
cavsftw this u playing basketball
i can see why u think the 60's was good

[CavaliersFTW]

https://youtu.be/GSpY-zRYK1Y
cavsftw this u playing basketball
i can see why u think the 60's was good
No shit it's me I'm the one who shared the video :oldlol:

This is also me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljr2dbascVM

I didn't start playing until I was 22, I know my limitations. I think it makes me appreciate great players even more actually, because I know what I can't do.

Also quit being a b*tch and post in the 100 shots challenge thread already:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352546

Shit talker who is afraid to reveal himself, no surprise there :lol

[DMV2]

Why you even compare big's?

You know damn, it's been a little man's league since Jordan took as the best player.

[CavaliersFTW]

Why you even compare big's?

You know damn, it's been a little man's league since Jordan took as the best player.
Olajuwon, Shaq and Tim Duncan say hi

[jzek]

Weak era.
Old era.
15 total NBA teams.

When Doris Burke has better handles in high heels than the best PG of that era you know something is very wrong.

[CavaliersFTW]

Weak era.
Old era.
15 total NBA teams.

When Doris Burke has better handles in high heels than the best PG of that era you know something is very wrong.
http://vineyard.trendolizer.com/2014/12/doris-burke---point-gawd.html

Her in real-time is slower than Cousy in slow-motion and she almost loses it :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-xa6546ixc

No comparison, Cousy runnin the break like Magic in actual games :rockon:

[DMV2]

Olajuwon, Shaq and Tim Duncan say hi
Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, Nash, Wade, Iverson, It's been a little man's league for a good part of the last 15 years. And make that 25 cuz Jordan destroyed the 90's Big's!!!! Which was the time the big's were any good. It's been only Shaq and Duncan since MJ's '98 retirement.

Hell, even big's don't even play like traditional big's anymore. Just look at Dirk.

Little Man > Big Man last 25 years.

[CavaliersFTW]

Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, Nash, Wade, Iverson, It's been a little man's league for a good part of the last 15 years. And make that 25 cuz Jordan destroyed the 90's Big's!!!! Which was the time the big's were any good. It's been only Shaq and Duncan since MJ's '98 retirement.

Hell, even big's don't even play like traditional big's anymore. Just look at Dirk.

Little Man > Big Man last 25 years.
Little men have always outnumbered big men, - it's rarer to be big - that doesn't mean they have more impact.

Would you rather start a team with wing players than bigs? Most GMs, coaches, etc tend to go for the dominant centers all-time. Even Phil Jackson said he'd rather start a team with Bill Russell than MJ or Kobe. He doesn't give a **** about arbitrary cut offs like "pre-merger", don't know why some ISH posters are so ready to fabricate these cut offs. Unless they're just too lazy to want to have to do research that far back, or maybe they've done some and are threatened by the resume's of the players of before their imaginary line.

[DMV2]

Players who made the All-Time Top 10 list in the last 25 years.

Big's: Shaq & Duncan
Perimeters: Jordan, Kobe and LeBron

Oh, and Finals MVPs and MVPs since 1991 that were non-Big's:
MJ - 4MVPs, 6 FMVP
Kobe - 1 MVP, 2 FMVP
LeBron - 2 FMVP, 2 FMVP
Parker, Pierce, Leonard, Billups, Iggy - 5 total FMVPs (1 for each guy)
Nash - 2 MVP
Iverson - 1 MVP

Forgot about Durant's MVP

Looks like Little Man's league the last 25 years to me.

[sdot_thadon]

New goat candidate by ish standards.

[CavaliersFTW]

Players who made the All-Time Top 10 list in the last 25 years.

Big's: Shaq & Duncan
Perimeters: Jordan, Kobe and LeBron

Oh, and Finals MVPs and MVPs since 1991:
MJ - 4MVPs, 6 FMVP
Kobe - 1 MVP, 2 FMVP
LeBron - 2 FMVP, 2 FMVP
Parker, Pierce, Leonard, Billups, Iggy - 5 total FMVPs (1 for each guy)
Nash - 2 MVP
Iverson - 1 MVP

Looks like Little Man's league the last 25 years to me.
Now look at who anchored all the titles in those time spans down low.

Only center-less teams were the Big-3 Heat and the Jordan era Bulls - teams without bigs anchoring the paint were outliers :lol

[DMV2]

Little men have always outnumbered big men, - it's rarer to be big - that doesn't mean they have more impact.

Would you rather start a team with wing players than bigs? Most GMs, coaches, etc tend to go for the dominant centers all-time. Even Phil Jackson said he'd rather start a team with Bill Russell than MJ or Kobe. He doesn't give a **** about arbitrary cut offs like "pre-merger", don't know why some ISH posters are so ready to fabricate these cut offs. Unless they're just too lazy to want to have to do research that far back, or maybe they've done some and are threatened by the resume's of the players of before their imaginary line.
Traditionally, you always go big over perimeter but you know that has changed the past 15 drafts. And yeah, it didn't changed overnight just because Bird-Magic and Jordan took over as the best players....a big shift like that takes years, even decades to be noticeable.

You can't deny that the league has been a little man's/perimeter guy's league last 15/20 years. They cater to the little guys now! Fair...nope. But it is what it is.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Players who made the All-Time Top 10 list in the last 25 years.

Big's: Shaq & Duncan
Perimeters: Jordan, Kobe and LeBron

Oh, and Finals MVPs and MVPs since 1991:
MJ - 4MVPs, 6 FMVP
Kobe - 1 MVP, 2 FMVP
LeBron - 2 FMVP, 2 FMVP
Parker, Pierce, Leonard, Billups, Iggy - 5 total FMVPs (1 for each guy)
Nash - 2 MVP
Iverson - 1 MVP

Forgot about Durant's MVP

Looks like Little Man's league the last 25 years to me.

If Shaq really kept himself in shape, he should have 3-4 MVPs by now.

[OnFire]

What these closet racists mean is, there's no way white players can be athletic or play in the league.

You have to be huge and super athletic like Steph Curry i guess.

[DMV2]

Now look at who anchored all the titles in those time spans down low.

Only center-less teams were the Big-3 Heat and the Jordan era Bulls - teams without bigs anchoring the paint were outliers :lol
I can't deny and never said that bigs don't make impact on championships anymore.

They still do but they're no longer the superstars fan look up to or get the same respect they used to by the league. Not anymore.

[CavaliersFTW]

Traditionally, you always go big over perimeter but you know that has changed the past 15 drafts. And yeah, it didn't changed overnight just because Bird-Magic and Jordan took over as the best players....a big shift like that takes years, even decades to be noticeable.

You can't deny that the league has been a little man's/perimeter guy's league last 15/20 years. They cater to the little guys now! Fair...nope. But it is what it is.
In the past 17 years Tim Duncan has 5 titles (2 of those with Robinson helping out), Shaq has 4.

In 3 other years those two didn't win some other teams front courts were anchored by Ben Wallace on the defensive end, or Pau Gasol/Bynum on both ends.

12 of 17 year stretch a big man presence was crucial to NBA titles.

If they cater to the little guys which I'm not denying, than big guys must be really ****ing good to have still remained so impactful at winning championships despite not getting any favortism in the current format of the game.

[SOD 21]

I don't really mean this as a hater or trying to diminish John Havlicek because I do believe he's a top 15 or 20 player all time in the history of the game. His resume and championships warrant that.

But with that said, if he was truly such an all-time great why did he only finish in the top five of the MVP voting twice, never finish higher than fourth, and why did he only make the first team all NBA four times in his career? That would be great for most any player, but doesn't quite stack up with most of the other all-time greats.

He seems more like a Scottie Pippen type than a true franchise type player.

[nycelt84]

He has a point though.

8 total teams....3/4th of them consisted of short white guys.


That's the only explanation for Chamberlain averaging 50 PPG and 25 RPG. Once the talent pool condensed in the postseason, his average dropped by like two-thirds. lol

Hate to break it to you, Celtics guy, but those 8 straight championships are extremely overrated.


Considering Havlicek wasn't in the league when there 8 teams or when Wilt averaged 50/25 I don't see why those points are relevant at all.

[TheMan]

In the past 17 years Tim Duncan has 5 titles (2 of those with Robinson helping out), Shaq has 4.

In 3 other years those two didn't win some other teams front courts were anchored by Ben Wallace on the defensive end, or Pau Gasol/Bynum on both ends.

12 of 17 year stretch a big man presence was crucial to NBA titles.

If they cater to the little guys which I'm not denying, than big guys must be really ****ing good to have still remained so impactful at winning championships despite not getting any favortism in the current format of the game.
Don't forget GS.

The league has changed a ton, big men are no longer the dominant factor of most NBA teams. I don't know why you're being so obtuse. I myself like the traditional big man role but that happens less and less nowadays. Big men today are basically just rim protectors and rebounders, hardly any teams in the league employ a inside out offense centered around a low post scoring big. Teams are moving towards 3pt shooting teams like GS and the champs before them, SAS and playing outside in, it is what it is, stop being in denial.

[AirFederer]

Personally I rank Hondo above MJ.

[CavaliersFTW]

Don't forget GS.
The league has changed a ton, big men are no longer the dominant factor of most NBA teams. I don't know why you're being so obtuse. I myself like the traditional big man role but that happens less and less nowadays. Big men today are basically just rim protectors and rebounders, hardly any teams in the league employ a inside out offense centered around a low post scoring big. Teams are moving towards 3pt shooting teams like GS and the champs before them, SAS and playing outside in, it is what it is, stop being in denial.
True but then I also shouldn't forget Dallas Mavs, 7 footer who makes a living off high and low-post fadeaways on offese and they were anchored by a 7 foot defensive big man on he other end in Tyson Chandler.

"Just" rim protectors and rebounders - isn't Dirk making a career out of the opposite of that? And as far as defensive/reounding bigs pretty sure you can't get the ball unless you get the rebound. Pretty sure protecting the rim means stopping the other team from scoring points. Crucial aspects of basketball however non-glorious they might be to ESPN and twitter audiences compared to hitting a 3 or executing a crossover.

[DMV2]

Don't forget GS.

The league has changed a ton, big men are no longer the dominant factor of most NBA teams. I don't know why you're being so obtuse. I myself like the traditional big man role but that happens less and less nowadays. Big men today are basically just rim protectors and rebounders, hardly any teams in the league employ a inside out offense centered around a low post scoring big. Teams are moving towards 3pt shooting teams like GS and the champs before them, SAS and playing outside in, it is what it is, stop being in denial.
:applause: Exactly!

Bigs are nothing more than role players nowadays. Perimeter players/little guys are the true superstars!

[TheMan]

True but then I also shouldn't forget Dallas Mavs, 7 footer who makes a living off high and low-post fadeaways on offese and they were anchored by a 7 foot defensive big man on he other end in Tyson Chandler.

"Just" rim protectors and rebounders - isn't Dirk making a career out of the opposite of that? And as far as defensive/reounding bigs pretty sure you can't get the ball unless you get the rebound. Pretty sure protecting the rim means stopping the other team from scoring points. Crucial aspects of basketball however non-glorious they might be to ESPN and twitter audiences compared to hitting a 3 or executing a crossover.
Dirk is a big who plays small though, he does most of his damage from the outside. KG also played like this. What I'm saying is that the traditional big man style of play (low post scoring like most of the old bigs) is a thing of the past.

[TheBigVeto]

John Havlicek had a career record of 8-0 in the NBA Finals and was the best player on the '68, 69, 74 and 76 championship Celtics teams. Might have also been the best on the '66 team.

With all the emphasis on Jordan's 6-0 record, is it possible that Havlicek might be underrated and should be mentioned in the same regard as guys like Jordan due to his sterling Finals record?

Hondo is 3rd GOAT SG after Jordan and Manu. Fact.
But yeah he's underrated due to his skin color.

[Pushxx]

Hondo is one of the most underrated professional athletes in sports history, not just the NBA.

[CavaliersFTW]

Hondo is one of the most underrated professional athletes in sports history, not just the NBA.
I think the reason behind it is like someone pointed out, he's more like a Scottie Pippen in terms of impact on his teams and the league than a Michael Jordan most of his career.

This is somewhat true IMO. He wasn't the best shooting guard or forward in the era most any year that he played. Most people outside of perhaps real die hard Celtics fans, or teammates of the time would likely say Baylor, Rick Barry, Julius Erving, Jerry West, Bob Pettit, Oscar Robertson etc were better forwards/guards. Hondo did make 4 All-NBA first-teams from 1971-74 but that's likely just because Barry and Dr. J were in the other league.

Still... his resume is rock solid. Even if he wasn't the "best" cut and dry forward of his time at any given point, he was always in the top small handful, making all-NBA second team pretty much any season he didn't make first team. And he made a career out of playing on both ends.

[nycelt84]

I think the reason behind it is like someone pointed out, he's more like a Scottie Pippen in terms of impact on his teams and the league than a Michael Jordan most of his career.

This is somewhat true IMO. He wasn't the best shooting guard or forward in the era most any year that he played. Most people outside of perhaps real die hard Celtics fans, or teammates of the time would likely say Baylor, Rick Barry, Julius Erving, Jerry West, Bob Pettit, Oscar Robertson etc were better forwards/guards. Hondo did make 4 All-NBA first-teams from 1971-74 but that's likely just because Barry and Dr. J were in the other league.

Still... his resume is rock solid. Even if he wasn't the "best" cut and dry forward of his time at any given point, he was always in the top small handful, making all-NBA second team pretty much any season he didn't make first team. And he made a career out of playing on both ends.

Except Pippen wasn't the best player on 4 championship teams. Nor did Pippen become the best player on his team while a GOAT level teammate was active in the same way Havlicek surpassed a still active Bill Russell.

[Pushxx]

Except Pippen wasn't the best player on 4 championship teams. Nor did Pippen become the best player on his team while a GOAT level teammate was active in the same way Havlicek surpassed a still active Bill Russell.

Not to to mention Hondo played a sacrificial style of basketball for his teams...he was the king of intangibles and cared more about winning than anything else he could do on the court.

[kshutts1]

The "death" of the bigman is obviously due to two factors... 3p line and lack of actual training for big men growing up.

Big men just don't want to be that guy down low that bulldoze people. Everyone wants to be flashy and shoot 3s.

However, just like in nearly all facets of life, supply/demand will win out. Any great big would have MURDERED the Warriors. All these "small ball" teams will force big men to get sick and tired of sitting down, and they will train and work and work and in 5-10 years will have some NASTY bigs entering the league.

[Pushxx]

The "death" of the bigman is obviously due to two factors... 3p line and lack of actual training for big men growing up.

Big men just don't want to be that guy down low that bulldoze people. Everyone wants to be flashy and shoot 3s.

However, just like in nearly all facets of life, supply/demand will win out. Any great big would have MURDERED the Warriors. All these "small ball" teams will force big men to get sick and tired of sitting down, and they will train and work and work and in 5-10 years will have some NASTY bigs entering the league.

Wrong thread, my dude.

[Akrazotile]

Lebron said something similar last night. :biggums:


NO he didnt bro, KNOCK IT OFF

[kshutts1]

Wrong thread, my dude.
Not wrong thread, just a couple pages late without a quoted text to make my response fall in place.

There were discussions about it being a little man league, big men aren't useful, etc.

[ArbitraryWater]

height isn't the only salient attribute that matters doe

learned another word straight outta statutory's vocabulary :bowdown:

[Roundball_Rock]

If people take the winning percentage in the Finals stuff seriously then how can Hondo not be top 10 all-time? It is a case of moving goal posts to invoke Finals winning percentages as the be all end all and then not even have Hondo in your top 20.

[nycelt84]

If people take the winning percentage in the Finals stuff seriously then how can Hondo not be top 10 all-time? It is a case of moving goal posts to invoke Finals winning percentages as the be all end all and then not even have Hondo in your top 20.

Captures exactly why I made this thread. It's ridiculous seeing people always post nonsense about Jordan being 6-0 as though that alone makes the greatest to ever play the game, when another legend has an even better Finals record while being undefeated as well.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Captures exactly why I made this thread. It's ridiculous seeing people always post nonsense about Jordan being 6-0 as though that alone makes the greatest to ever play the game, when another legend has an even better Finals record while being undefeated as well.

Tbh, Hondo didn't have as good of a peak as someone like Jordan, not all that close even if he still had a great one... Wasn't even ever top3 in MVP voting, too.
Plus, he has 8 rings but you can't say that he was the (clear-cut) best player and leader for more than 3 of them - not even 50% imo... Again, that's different for someone like Jordan.

^With that said though, I got Hondo at 4th on my all-time greatest SF's list when considering everything. I also have him as a top20 all-time player.

[Lebron23]

He's definitely an underrated player. The greatest player to never win the NBA MVP Award.

[SouBeachTalents]

He's definitely an underrated player. The greatest player to never win the NBA MVP Award.

That'd be Jerry West

[TheBigVeto]

Havlicek is 3rd GOAT SG. After Jordan and Manu.
No shame in that.

[BoutPractice]

I don't think many people realize that John Havlicek played at the same time as not only old-timers like Bob Cousy and his much ridiculed dribbling gif, but also Dr. J, David Thompson, Bernard King, Alex English…

His longevity was ridiculous. He was still averaging 16, 4 and 4 a game in his last season at 37… He's a living argument against the idea that you can neatly divide the modern NBA into "eras" and that greatness doesn't translate from one era to the next.

Fun fact involving Havlicek… since Wilt scored 100, there have only been three careers in the NBA:
John Havlicek (1962 - 1978)
Robert Parish (1976 - 1997)
Kevin Garnett (1995 - the end times)

All have been Celtics at some point.

[houston]

dr.j>>>>hondo

[SouBeachTalents]

Havlicek is 3rd GOAT SG. After Jordan and Manu.
No shame in that.

Too bad Hondo wasn't a SG though

[Axe]

:confusedshrug:

https://scontent.fmnl17-4.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/241076203_4553233301439682_2478862544198647685_n.p ng?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8024bb&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_eui2=AeF6gl9acM7iCNUrmmC9Vtl9m4fUss0aRkubh9Syz RpGS2dRf29DktWZdosXbL3cMekXBqFc9NxTJnqxfftCq8af&_nc_ohc=7dnQrOoj2wgAX_c0jDt&_nc_ht=scontent.fmnl17-4.fna&oh=737bb7f5a0e4454889b3bf33f4a1f4c8&oe=615B1B42

[8Ball]

:confusedshrug:

https://scontent.fmnl17-4.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/241076203_4553233301439682_2478862544198647685_n.p ng?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8024bb&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_eui2=AeF6gl9acM7iCNUrmmC9Vtl9m4fUss0aRkubh9Syz RpGS2dRf29DktWZdosXbL3cMekXBqFc9NxTJnqxfftCq8af&_nc_ohc=7dnQrOoj2wgAX_c0jDt&_nc_ht=scontent.fmnl17-4.fna&oh=737bb7f5a0e4454889b3bf33f4a1f4c8&oe=615B1B42

This is why the 6/6 argument is stupid and falls flat on its face

[Jasper]

I can't pinpoint where to draw the line but when I watch game footage from the 60s it's clear to me that the talent isn't the same.

I struggle to see how bob cousy for example could ever play in today's game

the guys you listed are good, but their margin over todays player is smaller than the margin over the player of their era.

Cousy a HOF'er could easily play in this weak ass defensive era ... his passes were pin point passes.
Hondo I have at as a Top 10 player because of his chips as well as his durable longevity and All-Star appearances when they meant something.

[Axe]

This is why the 6/6 argument is stupid and falls flat on its face
Duh. On a note though, some will still say that six is more than four.

[3ba11]

John Havlicek had a career record of 8-0 in the NBA Finals and was the best player on the '68, 69, 74 and 76 championship Celtics teams. Might have also been the best on the '66 team.

With all the emphasis on Jordan's 6-0 record, is it possible that Havlicek might be underrated and should be mentioned in the same regard as guys like Jordan due to his sterling Finals record?


So wait.... Bill Russell wasn't the best player for his 11 titles and Havlicek was the best player for about half of them?
'
So MJ's 6 titles as the best player is the goat accomplishment?

:dancin:

[Axe]

So wait.... Bill Russell wasn't the best player for his 11 titles and Havlicek was the best player for about half of them?
'
So MJ's 6 titles as the best player is the goat accomplishment?

:dancin:
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