Jordan won his last title with no Help and Revisionist Small Ball.

[westsideozzie]

When Jordan won his last title Scottie Pippen had a bad back and could not play, Rodman could board but could not score, and a cast of vagabonds and still got it done. As good as Lebron is, he cant close on an elite level, and thats why he only has two rings at this point.

As for the near triple double, he's was the biggest cat on the floor. What do you expect? Let him bang with centers and power forwards and then I might give his inflated final numbers some real respect. That being said, he is the second best player of the past 30 years.

[JerrySeinfeld]

If LeBron doesn't do something incredibly stupid on the final possession of game 1, or better yet just lets Irving close the game out, Cleveland could have easily won this series.

People really overlook the importance of clutch play. Or at least it appears that way with how overhyped LeBron's finals were getting while he was shooting 30% in 4th quarter and OT while losing.

[Nastradamus]

If LeBron doesn't do something incredibly stupid on the final possession of game 1, or better yet just lets Irving close the game out, Cleveland could have easily won this series.

People really overlook the importance of clutch play. Or at least it appears that way with how overhyped LeBron's finals were getting while he was shooting 30% in 4th quarter and OT while losing.

Did you actually watch any games in the Finals???

[iamgine]

In the '98 finals, Pippen played and had a big impact, Kukoc was a better offensive player than everyone on the Cavs finals team except bron, Rodman was still a defensive beast. You can't beat the '98 Jazz if you had no help, especially a '98 MJ who quite clearly was not prime MJ.

[STATUTORY]

If LeBron doesn't do something incredibly stupid on the final possession of game 1, or better yet just lets Irving close the game out, Cleveland could have easily won this series.

People really overlook the importance of clutch play. Or at least it appears that way with how overhyped LeBron's finals were getting while he was shooting 30% in 4th quarter and OT while losing.
Lebron missed something like 15 out of 17 shots in clutch moments this series

cannot be overlooked

JR was the only bright spot in the 4th quarter last night. JR SMITH

[warriorfan]

bron layed brick after brick in the 4th in every game of the series...it was unbelievable

[julizaver]

When Jordan won his last title Scottie Pippen had a bad back and could not play, Rodman could board but could not score, and a cast of vagabonds and still got it done. As good as Lebron is, he cant close on an elite level, and thats why he only has two rings at this point.

As for the near triple double, he's was the biggest cat on the floor. What do you expect? Let him bang with centers and power forwards and then I might give his inflated final numbers some real respect. That being said, he is the second best player of the past 30 years.

The injured Cavs are nowhere near the '98 Bulls team - even if Scotie Pippen got some health issues it doesn't prevent him from playing in all the games.
Besides Pippen and MJ they had Rodman to guard Malone and Kukoc to score some points. And if someone remembers Ron Harper was 20 ppg player for 9 seasons, while with Bulls he took a back seat and played team ball averaging less than 8 ppg overall.
The Bulls '96-98 teams are one of the best ever in NBA history.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Pippen averaged about 16/7/5 and started 6 games averaging about mpg
Kukoc averaged 15/5/3
Rodman played 6 games averaging 30 mpg and got 8 rebounds a game

No help though :lol

[scandisk_]

Pippen averaged about 16/7/5 and started 6 games averaging about mpg
Kukoc averaged 15/5/3
Rodman played 6 games averaging 30 mpg and got 8 rebounds a game

No help though :lol

There's help, a lot of it.

The thing though, HE WON.

[Rose'sACL]

i also remember that jordan had an Achilles tear but played the whole finals throught it and later retired so no one would know.

[J Shuttlesworth]

There's help, a lot of it.

The thing though, HE WON.
Sure, and props to him for that.

But OP is trying to spin it as if he didn't have 2 hall of famers on the court with him.

[warriorfan]

Sure, and props to him for that.

But OP is trying to spin it as if he didn't have 2 hall of famers on the court with him.

Curry won with 0 Hall of Famers on the court or on the team for that matter. While leading the team in ppg and assists with elite efficiency.

[navy]

Iggy won with 0 Hall of Famers on the court or on the team for that matter.
Agreed.

[TAZORAC]

When Jordan won his last title Scottie Pippen had a bad back and could not play, Rodman could board but could not score, and a cast of vagabonds and still got it done. As good as Lebron is, he cant close on an elite level, and thats why he only has two rings at this point.

As for the near triple double, he's was the biggest cat on the floor. What do you expect? Let him bang with centers and power forwards and then I might give his inflated final numbers some real respect. That being said, he is the second best player of the past 30 years.

Ron Harper was underrated, Toni Kukoc was an allstar, Jordan was incapable of carrying a horrible team, he doesn't do enough.

[L.A. Jazz]

The Bulls werent as good as 97, but their defense was still good and they had tons of experience. something the Cavs and Warriors didnt have.

The Jazz lost because they had only one capable defender for MJ, their Centers werent great scorers (which always hurt the Bulls) and the Jazz let the Bulls hang around or didnt Close them out. With great Players you cant do that. So MJ finished them off. A Close game with 2 minutes to go means MJ, Kobe or other greats take over. you cant let them be that Close at the end of the game. And the Jazz didnt have that closer. Stockton was too old and Karl never was the best crunchtimeplayer.

[GIF REACTION]

And Lebron won with Dwyane "NBA finals record -56" Wade and Chris "0 points in game 7" Bosh in 2013.

[NBASTATMAN]

When Jordan won his last title Scottie Pippen had a bad back and could not play, Rodman could board but could not score, and a cast of vagabonds and still got it done. As good as Lebron is, he cant close on an elite level, and thats why he only has two rings at this point.

As for the near triple double, he's was the biggest cat on the floor. What do you expect? Let him bang with centers and power forwards and then I might give his inflated final numbers some real respect. That being said, he is the second best player of the past 30 years.


MJ EASILY THE BEST ALL TIME

[NBASTATMAN]

And Lebron won with Dwyane "NBA finals record -56" Wade and Chris "0 points in game 7" Bosh in 2013.


Lebron is top 7-8.. Depends whether you take Kobe over him or not..

[plowking]

Why do people spread myths about Jordan, and furthermore, why do people just eat up whatever is spewed about Jordan?

The only reason Jordan was competing for a title in his last season was due to his teammates. He went 0-1 from the field in the last 5 minutes of game 7 against Indiana in the ECF. Not to mention had a 9-25 night... People sit here and pretend Jordan had some killer mentality that no one else had, and that he always got it done. No, sometimes he didn't. But given the context, his teammates stepped up and covered for him and they were able to win.

[dontgetchoked]

Why do people spread myths about Jordan, and furthermore, why do people just eat up whatever is spewed about Jordan?

The only reason Jordan was competing for a title in his last season was due to his teammates. He went 0-1 from the field in the last 5 minutes of game 7 against Indiana in the ECF. Not to mention had a 9-25 night... People sit here and pretend Jordan had some killer mentality that no one else had, and that he always got it done. No, sometimes he didn't. But given the context, his teammates stepped up and covered for him and they were able to win.

You do realize it's like that with Lebron to? Every player gets excuses made up by their fans this is nothing new.

[jlip]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11482128&postcount=84

[Da_Realist]

Why do people spread myths about Jordan, and furthermore, why do people just eat up whatever is spewed about Jordan?

The only reason Jordan was competing for a title in his last season was due to his teammates. He went 0-1 from the field in the last 5 minutes of game 7 against Indiana in the ECF. Not to mention had a 9-25 night... People sit here and pretend Jordan had some killer mentality that no one else had, and that he always got it done. No, sometimes he didn't. But given the context, his teammates stepped up and covered for him and they were able to win.

Read this very carefully --> http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11051561&postcount=83

And never use that game as an example again.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen averaged about 16/7/5 and started 6 games averaging about mpg
Kukoc averaged 15/5/3
Rodman played 6 games averaging 30 mpg and got 8 rebounds a game

No help though :lol

:lol

Plus before his injury Pippen was dominating the series in a way no perimeter player ever has defensively, leading the Bulls to a 3-1 series lead. Rodman contained Malone, who won two MVP's in a three year span from 1997-1999. Harper did a good job defending Stockton. MJ was the #4 option on defense in the series.

If the claims made about MJ are accurate why the need for so much deceit and mythology? Jordan knew he could not win "by himself" which is why he quit when Pip and Phil left town.

[plowking]

Read this very carefully --> http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11051561&postcount=83

And never use that game as an example again.

Gimme a break you freaking Jordan jockey.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You guys are impervious to any kind of criticism to Jordan. You won't ever give players like Kobe, Durant or Bron a break, but heavens if we show Jordan had the same type of games and was susceptible to lapses in his game. :facepalm

[catch24]

Jordan had a pretty bad game 7 by his standards. Lets not get carried away here.


Gimme a break you freaking Jordan jockey.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You guys are impervious to any kind of criticism to Jordan. You won't ever give players like Kobe, Durant or Bron a break, but heavens if we show Jordan had the same type of games and was susceptible to lapses in his game. :facepalm

You're the same way with LeBron and Kobe though. Spreading myths that Kobe was seeing the same kind of defensive attention LeBron was this past finals. C'mon.

And when did you become such a LeBron fan? When I used to made videos and game-edits for ISH, and of Wade, I'm pretty sure you were a hardcore fan of his. lol

[plowking]

Jordan had a pretty bad game 7 by his standards. Lets not get carried away here.



You're the same way with LeBron and Kobe though. Spreading myths around that Kobe was seeing the same kind of defensive attention LeBron was. C'mon.

And when did you become such a LeBron fan? When I used to made videos and game-edits for ISH, and of Wade, I'm pretty sure you were a hardcore fan of his. lol

I'm seriously a fan of all of them. Not kidding. But Bron was on the Heat recently and he won us a few titles. Hard to hate. Plus dude gets hate on here like no one else.

What defensive attention are you talking about? The 2010 finals, 6-24 game? Kobe was single covered that game. What is the problem? Look at the videos from that game. Ray Allen was playing him straight up for 80% of that game with the occasional double on a screen or switch on a screen.

[Da_Realist]

Gimme a break you freaking Jordan jockey.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You guys are impervious to any kind of criticism to Jordan. You won't ever give players like Kobe, Durant or Bron a break, but heavens if we show Jordan had the same type of games and was susceptible to lapses in his game. :facepalm

If you're gonna make a point, know what you're talking about first. That game personified the very definition of killer instinct. I quoted Phil Jackson and Fred Hoiberg (who played for the Pacers that game). Phil Jackson even edited the videotape to show the last 6 mins of the game to highlight it. Don't kill the messenger.

Highlighting that game because of "9 for 25" showed that you didn't look beyond the box score. Now you've been enlightened. You're welcome.

[plowking]

If you're gonna make a point, know what you're talking about first. That game personified the very definition of killer instinct. I quoted Phil Jackson and Fred Hoiberg (who played for the Pacers that game). Phil Jackson even edited the videotape to show the last 6 mins of the game to highlight it. Don't kill the messenger.

Highlighting that game because of "9 for 25" showed that you didn't look beyond the box score. Now you've been enlightened. You're welcome.

I watched the game, so yeah... there goes that point.

0 for 1 from the field in the last 5 minutes shows killer instinct? This is the exact same thing players like Bron, Kobe and Durant get criticised for today.

At the end of the day, regardless of fatigue or whatever, it was a bad game. I watched it, and saw how he played. It wasn't a good game. No denying that. Which is exactly my point.

Get over it now. Jordan had a bad game. He isn't perfect.

[The_Pharcyde]

I watched the game, so yeah... there goes that point.

0 for 1 from the field in the last 5 minutes shows killer instinct? This is the exact same thing players like Bron, Kobe and Durant get criticised for today.

At the end of the day, regardless of fatigue or whatever, it was a bad game. I watched it, and saw how he played. It wasn't a good game. No denying that. Which is exactly my point.

Get over it now. Jordan had a bad game. He isn't perfect.


Okay well Phil Jackson, jalen Rose and Fred hoiberg said the opposite

So I'm forsure gonna take their opinion on a game over some irrelevant poster named plowking

[Da_Realist]

I watched the game, so yeah... there goes that point.

0 for 1 from the field in the last 5 minutes shows killer instinct? This is the exact same thing players like Bron, Kobe and Durant get criticised for today.

At the end of the day, regardless of fatigue or whatever, it was a bad game. I watched it, and saw how he played. It wasn't a good game. No denying that. Which is exactly my point.

Get over it now. Jordan had a bad game. He isn't perfect.

Really? Did you see that kind of heart from Lebron in the 4th quarters of the Finals this year? Let's see the last 6 mins of every game and see if we come up with the same impression. I saw a lot of standing around. A lot of complaining to the refs. A lot of head hanging. Lack of energy and lack of drive.

Way to move the goalposts, btw. I never said MJ was perfect nor did I say he never had a bad game. I said this game was a bad example of your point. And it is.

[plowking]

Okay well Phil Jackson, jalen Rose and Fred hoiberg said the opposite

So I'm forsure gonna take their opinion on a game over some irrelevant poster named plowking

Yeah and Robert Horry said Rudy Tomjanovich is a better coach than Pop. We're all entitled to opinions, and we're all entitled to argue a point in a shit way, like you just did in this post.

[plowking]

Really? Did you see that kind of heart from Lebron in the 4th quarters of the Finals this year? Let's see the last 6 mins of every game and see if we come up with the same impression. I saw a lot of standing around. A lot of complaining to the refs. A lot of head hanging. Lack of energy and lack of drive.

Way to move the goalposts, btw. I never said MJ was perfect nor did I say he never had a bad game. I said this game was a bad example of your point. And it is.

I don't know if we saw that heart from Bron. How do we measure someone's heart and mental strength? I don't even care.
Who is moving the goalposts? I said he had a bad game, and was lucky to be in the finals to have a shot of winning them due to his teammates, which directly replies to the thread. You're the one going off topic.

[3ball]

Pippen averaged about 16/7/5 and started 6 games averaging about mpg
Kukoc averaged 15/5/3


Mosgov averaged 14 PPG and 8 RPG.... Tristan averaged 10 PPG and 13 RPG.

So what's your point?.. Mosgov and Tristan were clearly equal supporting help to Pippen's MIA and Kukoc..

Btw, in the finals two games of the 1998 Finals, Pippen had 8 points and 6 points..

Lebron had just as much help in 2015 as MJ had in 1998.. After Pippen and Kukoc, the next guy was Harper with 5.3 PPG, whereas Lebron had JR Smith, Shumpert and Delladova all over 6 PPG.

[navy]

In the finals two games of the 1998 Finals, Pippen had 8 points and 6 points.

Otoh, Mosgov averaged 14 PPG and 8 RPG.... Tristan averaged 10 PPG and 13 RPG.

So what's your point?.. Mosgov and Tristan were clearly equal supporting help to Pippen's MIA and Kukoc.. Lebron had just as much help in 2015 as MJ had in 1998.. After Pippen and Kukoc, the next guy was Harper with 5.3 PPG.
Mozgov and Thristan dont create for themselves well, which is why they arent starters, or werent starters until this year. MJ should have gotten Pip a few more easy baskets. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Mozgov and Thristan dont create for themselves well, which is why they arent starters, or werent starters until this year. MJ should have gotten Pip a few more easy baskets. :confusedshrug:
But they provided interior presence that MJ never had.

Ultimately, Mosgov's 14/8 + Tristan's 10/13 = Pippen's 15/7 and Kukoc's 15/5.

The next guy after Kukoc was Harper at 5 PPG... Whereas Lebron had 3 guys over 6 PPG - Shumpert, JR Smith, and Delladova..

So Lebron wins the remaining supporting cast, after the top two guys on each team cancel each other out.. :confusedshrug:

[Da_Realist]

When Jordan won his last title Scottie Pippen had a bad back and could not play, Rodman could board but could not score, and a cast of vagabonds and still got it done. As good as Lebron is, he cant close on an elite level, and thats why he only has two rings at this point.

More box score watching. There is a massive difference -- The Bulls were 2 time defending champs, MJ/Pip/PJ all had 5 titles going into the Finals while Rodman had 4, they had the best coaching staff in the league, they were all battle-tested and knew how to win. The Jazz were returning to the Finals a second straight time and were also battle-tested and smart. John Stockton is one of the smartest players to ever play.

The Cavs were feeling their way around. Lebron was the only guy to have any Finals experience at all and they lost their most dynamic player (Kyrie Irving) after Game 1 so they were scrambling a bit under a rookie coach.

Big, big difference.

Gotta look past the box score.

[navy]

But they provided interior presence that MJ never had.

Ultimately, Mosgov's 14/8 + Tristan's 10/13 = Pippen's 15/7 and Kukoc's 15/5.

The next guy after Kukoc was Harper at 5 PPG... Whereas Lebron had 3 guys over 6 PPG - Shumpert, JR Smith, and Delladova..

So Lebron wins the remaining supporting cast, after the top two guys on each team cancel each other out.. :confusedshrug:
You dont remember Shaq beating MJ until they got Dennis Rodman? Come one now.

Shumpert/Delly/and Joness shot a combined 0 percent without Lebron (yes it was that bad) And those guys shot 40-50% when Lebron created for them. When he didnt the highest was 26% by Jr Smith the rest where in the 20 or below.

Are you telling me the Bulls would post a 50 ortg without MJ?

[Dro]

I love all this bullsh*t about Jordan "mythology", no its more like you dudes are just haters...Nobody spews that sh*t more than his haters...

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif


Gotta look past the box score.



Not always.. Lebron shot 39% and needed 35 FGA to get 35 PPG.

That is not "good" or "satisfactory" by any standard - especially considering he wasn't double-teamed and enjoyed the most secluded 1-on-1 isolations that I've ever seen.

Honestly, Lebron actually had a HORRIBLE series - that's the only way to describe needing 35 FGA to get 35 points while playing 1-on-1 against the defense shown above..

How is 35 FGA to get 35 points against such defense NOT horrible?

[sd3035]

Not always.. Lebron shot 39% and needed 35 FGA to get 35 PPG.

That is not "good" or "satisfactory" by any standard - especially considering he wasn't double-teamed and enjoyed the most secluded 1-on-1 isolations that I've ever seen.

Honestly, Lebron actually had a HORRIBLE series - that's the only way to describe needing 35 FGA to get 35 PPG while playing 1-on-1 against the defense shown above..

How is 35 FGA to get 35 PPG against such defense NOT horrible?


don't forget the ton of undeserved FTs, of which he bricked many as well

[Da_Realist]

Not always.. Lebron shot 39% and needed 35 FGA to get 35 PPG.

That is not "good" or "satisfactory" by any standard - especially considering he wasn't double-teamed and enjoyed the most secluded 1-on-1 isolations that I've ever seen.

Honestly, Lebron actually had a HORRIBLE series - that's the only way to describe needing 35 FGA to get 35 points while playing 1-on-1 against the defense shown above..

How is 35 FGA to get 35 points against such defense NOT horrible?

I don't disagree about Lebron. I'm saying the 98 Bulls were more than what the boxscore says they were. You can't measure experience and the Bulls knew how to win. They beat the Jazz by 42 points one of those games.

[Vancouver-Grizz]

Here are some of his stats. not sure if it shows up correctly but it helps to see in number wise how dominate he was even on his last year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1998/

[jlip]

What is "Revisionist Small Ball?"

[3ball]

I don't disagree about Lebron. I'm saying the 98 Bulls were more than what the boxscore says they were. You can't measure experience and the Bulls knew how to win. They beat the Jazz by 42 points one of those games.


I'm with you boss.

If you look at the 90's Bulls, for all of their championships, they needed MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the best scorer of all time.. So the 1994 Bulls didn't win because they had talented players who could score a lot of points - they won based on the superior experience, strategy, teamwork, execution and mental ability they accumulated by 3-peating with MJ.

They also had a desire to prove themselves that was unlike any other team before or since - i.e. the GOAT doesn't usually retire mid-career with everyone in their uber-prime.. That provides once-in-a-lifetime scenario and motivation.
.