1985 (rookie) Jordan vs 2008 (MVP) Kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

Didn't see a tread on this, tough one though

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4X6kzjCYAArkk7.jpg

*FG% is 52%

[Legends66NBA7]

There's a thread on the first page: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380596

[Ne 1]

Technically, this is correct, but let's put things into perspective as use some context here. You had guys like Purvis Short putting up 26 ppg on near 50% from the field during that time... so should we think prime Kobe back then would have any problem shooting a higher FG% than his usual 45-47% average in that era and scoring more? Especially with him getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the bad boy Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.) If you watch games from back then, like no one ever going 10 feet within guys shooting just because they wanted to get the ball ASAP to start a fast break.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Don't get me wrong, I would probably take rookie Jordan over most versions of Kobe...but where are the playoff stats? Kobe also led his team to the finals.

[ArbitraryWater]

Don't get me wrong, I would probably take rookie Jordan over most versions of Kobe...but where are the playoff stats? Kobe also led his team to the finals.

over how many?

[Ne 1]

*FG% is 52%
Yes, and it should be noted that in the 1980s and early 1990s, everyone shot a higher FG%


Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron James was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%

Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.

Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.

Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.

Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/Early 90s.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%. This isn't meant to belittle Jordan or any of the other players I named at all, but it was a different era and the fact of that matter is that the 80s/early 90s was a different game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

over how many?

A vast majority of them. Don't think I would take Mike's rookie verz over Kobe's peak ie. 2006-2008, but every other season from the 19 he's played is definitely arguable.

Maybe that's just me though. :confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

Point taken, but you could do the same thing with Wilt's rookie year vs Kareem, Shaq, or Hakeem's MVP seasons as well

[ArbitraryWater]

Yes, and it should be noted that in the 1980s and early 1990s, everyone shot a higher FG%


Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron James was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%

Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.

Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.

Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.

Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/Early 90s.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%. This isn't meant to belittle Jordan or any of the other players I named at all, but it was a different era and the fact of that matter is that the 80s/early 90s was a different game.

what do you think were the main reasons for the weaker defenses in the 80's, or 2005-2006 period when teams adjusted to new rules (I basically just gave mine)?


A vast majority of them. Don't think I would take Mike's rookie verz over Kobe's peak ie. 2006-2008, but every other season from the 19 he's played is definitely arguable.

Maybe that's just me though. :confusedshrug:

no doubt, I'd add 2003 and 2009 Kobe as better, but besides that? 2001 should be on there too, no?


Point taken, but you could do the same thing with Wilt's rookie year vs Kareem, Shaq, or Hakeem's MVP seasons as well

pace/possessions/FGA? 60's stats are misleading if you'd do that.

Here whats surprising is MJ actually took less shots than Kobe :eek:

[DMAVS41]

08 Kobe was better. Clearly...

[HOoopCityJones]

You saw this thread made and made it again?

[3ball]

what do you think were the main reasons for the weaker defenses in the 80's,


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-25-2015/7mUjI9.gif


Show me where players in previous eras got to play secluded 1-on-1 on the strongside, with all 4 help defenders on the far weakside and furthest away to help.

The setup shown above is literally the weakest defense possible against a strongside player, and it's routine (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570) in today's game due to weakside spacing.

Otoh, it's amazing how previous eras didn't have weakside spacing, and therefore faced more defenders on the strongside:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21

Night and day.
.

[97 bulls]

Yes, and it should be noted that in the 1980s and early 1990s, everyone shot a higher FG%


Since Chris Mullin in the early 90s, LeBron James was the first perimeter player to average 25+ ppg on 50+%

Reggie Miller who was a jump shoter 98% of the time had 4 seasons shooting 50 FG%.

Drazen Petrovic had 2 seasons.

Jeff Hornacek had 5 seasons.

Even Ricky Pierce had 6 seasons shooting over 50 FG% from the field in the 80's/Early 90s.

Those type of seasons in the mid 80s to early 90s happened all the time. List of other guys who accomplished that feat: Kiki Vandeweghe, Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Dale Ellis, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullin, Alex English, Bernard King, Jordan, Bird, Gervin, Worthy, Stockton, Johnson, Dr. J, Thompson, Kelly Tripucka and a couple of others came close and I'm sure I am forgetting some names too (stopped happening around mid-late 90s when help defense improved, overall commitment to defense by teams was greater and also perimeter talent was crap) Now if you compare that to the last 15years, it has been a rarity for a high scoring perimeter player to shoot 50+%. This isn't meant to belittle Jordan or any of the other players I named at all, but it was a different era and the fact of that matter is that the 80s/early 90s was a different game.
Ive been screaming thus since I joined this forum. You cant compare 80s stats to todays. Or even the mid to late 90s for that matter. The teams focus was a lot different.

[jstern]

Players didn't take that many 3s in the 80s, so when comparing FG percentage, 2pt fg and 3pt fg should be compared separately. Jordan shot .526 from 2 points. Which is essentially his FG percentage. So it wouldn't be fair to compare that to Kobe who shot 415 3s that season. He shot .490 from 2pt.

[DonDadda59]

Players didn't take that many 3s in the 80s, so when comparing FG percentage, 2pt fg and 3pt fg should be compared separately. Jordan shot .526 from 2 points. Which is essentially his FG percentage. So it wouldn't be fair to compare that to Kobe who shot 415 3s that season. He shot .490 from 2pt.

So basically all you've proven is no matter how you look at it, rookie Jordan>Prime Bean :applause:

[LAL]

MJ's losing seasons stats > MJ/Kobe's triangle/championshop seasons stats.

[TheCorporation]

Kobe back then would have any problem shooting a higher FG% than his usual 45-47% average

Um, Kobe literally NEVER has shot 47% in his entire career. Not even one time. Not ever.

His "average" is 45%
His last 4 seasons have been pitiful:

Don't try to defend Kobe's inefficient chucking ability. You can say he scores a lot of point (inefficiently) but please don't ever say his average is 47% when he has literally NEVER done it once...He is a career volume scorer/chucker. This is common knowledge.

[chazzy]

Um, Kobe literally NEVER has shot 47% in his entire career. Not even one time. Not ever.

His "average" is 45%
His last 4 seasons have been pitiful:

Don't try to defend Kobe's inefficient chucking ability. You can say he scores a lot of point (inefficiently) but please don't ever say his average is 47% when he has literally NEVER done it once...He is a career volume scorer/chucker. This is common knowledge.
Get with the times and use TS% to judge efficiency, people actually utilize the 3pt shot now.

[TheCorporation]

Get with the times and use TS% to judge efficiency, people actually utilize the 3pt shot now.

This won't end well..

TS .577%

LeBron: 7 seasons (2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
Kobe: 1 season

Post season:

LeBron: 4 times
Kobe: 2 times

[NBASTATMAN]

Durant has shot over 50 percent the last four seasons and he has taken a huge amount of threes as well. Nash, bron, Wade and others have shot around 50 percent or better... Curry is close and takes a huge amount of threes... Kobe should have been able to shoot over 50 percent at one point considering all the talent he has played along side of... But he didn't...

[Ne 1]

Um, Kobe literally NEVER has shot 47% in his entire career. Not even one time. Not ever.

2002 (.469), 2000 (.468), 2009 (.468) and 1999 (.465) are close enough.


His "average" is 45%

45% isn't good for a guard? :confusedshrug:



Don't try to defend Kobe's inefficient chucking ability. You can say he scores a lot of point (inefficiently) but please don't ever say his average is 47% when he has literally NEVER done it once...He is a career volume scorer/chucker. This is common knowledge.

Except Kobe being inefficient over his career is a myth. He has always been efficient relative to league average, even in most of his highest-volume shooting seasons. In fact, he had excellent efficiency over his prime. His last few seasons excepted because of age, injury/surgery, mileage, lockouts, etc). +3% over league average is still very good. He was actually at a excellent +3-4% relative to league average TS% from 2001-2009. That's as good as 2nd 3-peat Jordan.

By the way, 2012 was an aberration. In 2011 he was at 55% TS/111 ORTG. He doesn't have a problem with creating good efficiency.

Oh yeah, and he shot 50%+ from 10-15 in 2010 and 2011. Nobody but Dirk matched that.

[Mr Feeny]

45% isn't good for a guard? :confusedshrug:




Except Kobe being inefficient over his career is a myth.


-Not compared to Jordan; it's horrendous.
-It's not. He IS abysmal from an efficiency standpoint. Always has been.

[GimmeThat]

So Art has yet to defy science.

[chazzy]

-Not compared to Jordan; it's horrendous.
-It's not. He IS abysmal from an efficiency standpoint. Always has been.
55.3 TS% vs 56.9 TS% is the difference between "horrendous/abysmal" and GOAT :oldlol:

[ArbitraryWater]

55.3 TS% vs 56.9 TS% is the difference between "horrendous/abysmal" and GOAT :oldlol:

TS the new thing now?








































http://myreactiongifs.com/gifs/idontbelieveyou.gif

FG% & eFG% = Flawless (cause no subjective metric, only facz)

[Rose'sACL]

This is a hard one to call. I would take Kobe because having the pressure to win is a really big factor.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Technically, this is correct, but let's put things into perspective as use some context here. You had guys like Purvis Short putting up 26 ppg on near 50% from the field during that time... so should we think prime Kobe back then would have any problem shooting a higher FG% than his usual 45-47% average in that era and scoring more? Especially with him getting a million semi-transition looks all game long, with horrible help defense (which didn't improve until the bad boy Pistons showed how), amongst several other factors.) If you watch games from back then, like no one ever going 10 feet within guys shooting just because they wanted to get the ball ASAP to start a fast break.

25.5 PPG on 48.2% is 26 PPG on damn near 50% for you? :rolleyes: Cool...

What do you know about Purvis Short anyway? Did you know he was a lanky 6'7 SF with very long arms? Did you know he had probably the GOAT rainbow jumper, could shoot that thing right in your face with a crazy arc, while making it swish? Did you know his teams were losing a lot while he was putting up his best stats? Did you know he was a very good scorer, not a bad defender but didn't do much else and was never considered a truly impactful player or even close?

Didn't improve until the Bad Boys showed up? Right... Just because those Pistons played some of them best defense you'll ever see, physical af, just because they won a title with a top3 ranked defense and without a top5 ranked offense... Doesn't mean you didn't have great defenses before them or something.
Go watch the best versions of the 80's Bucks, defense close to those Pistons in terms of effectiveness.
Watch the '86 Celtics, Hubie Brown's Knicks at their best, '83 Philly when they were geared towards it. Watch the Jazz with Mark Eaton, mid-80's Bullets.
You don't even know what I'm talking about...

'79 Sonics had a KILLER defense and not even a top10 ranked offense... They won a title, ten years before the Pistons did it. Pistons changed the game but not them, nobody even played defense before those Pistons came around :rolleyes:

Funny how you tell people to watch games from back then, when it's clear you never did so much at all :oldlol: Stop talking out ya ass...

[Mr Feeny]

55.3 TS% vs 56.9 TS% is the difference between "horrendous/abysmal" and GOAT :oldlol:

In other words you gave cherry picked whichever efficiency stat suits Kobe the most and he STILL trails :oldlol: Great! :lebronamazed:

[OldSchoolBBall]

If you exclude MJ's Wizards years, he is at 58.0% TS for his career versus Kobe's 55.3%. In each of their 5 best consecutive seasons they are again 2.7% TS apart (59.5% for MJ versus 56.8% for Kobe). And 2.7% is a SUBSTANTIAL gap - it's as large as the gap between Kobe's 5 best years and and Iverson's 5 best years, for comparison.

[Ne 1]

If you exclude MJ's Wizards years, he is at 58.0% TS for his career versus Kobe's 55.3%. In each of their 5 best consecutive seasons they are again 2.7% TS apart (59.5% for MJ versus 56.8% for Kobe). And 2.7% is a SUBSTANTIAL gap - it's as large as the gap between Kobe's 5 best years and and Iverson's 5 best years, for comparison.

It's all relative to league average though during their time.

[ralph_i_el]

-Not compared to Jordan; it's horrendous.
-It's not. He IS abysmal from an efficiency standpoint. Always has been.

TS%

Plus mj's 80's stats are sooooo inflated

[Young X]

TS%

Plus mj's 80's stats are sooooo inflatedHow are they inflated when his teams played at the same pace teams play today? This years's Warriors played at a higher pace than pretty much all of MJ's teams.

[STATUTORY]

How are they inflated when his teams played at the same pace teams play today? This years's Warriors played at a higher pace than pretty much all of MJ's teams.

they are inflated cause league average fg% was over 50%, scrubs were scoring 20+ on 50% regularly

need to adjust stats for era

[Young X]

they are inflated cause league average fg% was over 50%, scrubs were scoring 20+ on 50% regularly

need to adjust stats for eraThe league average was above FG% 50% because the 3 point shot was used way less than now.

The eFG% in '85 was the same as it is today (49.6%). Teams back then were scoring from the field at the same rate as teams now. Difference is teams played faster and used more possessions but since MJ's teams were generally among the slowest in the league that doesn't apply to him.

[Mr Feeny]

The league average was above FG% 50% because the 3 point shot was used way less than now.

The eFG% in '85 was the same as it is today (49.6%). Teams back then were scoring from the field at the same rate as teams now. Difference is teams played faster and used more possessions but since MJ's teams were generally among the slowest in the league that doesn't apply to him.

This. And dumb iso-centric play of the mid 2000's wasn't rampant back then. Players took smarter shots. End of.

[STATUTORY]

The league average was above FG% 50% because the 3 point shot was used way less than now.

The eFG% in '85 was the same as it is today (49.6%). Teams back then were scoring from the field at the same rate as teams now. Difference is teams played faster and used more possessions but since MJ's teams were generally among the slowest in the league that doesn't apply to him.

how bad do you have to be at logic to think that's a counter argument? it doesn't matter why fg% was higher, the matter of the fact is that they were, so MJ shooting over 50% is less impressive since everyone was doing it.

[andgar923]

how bad do you have to be at logic to think that's a counter argument? it doesn't matter why fg% was higher, the matter of the fact is that they were, so MJ shooting over 50% is less impressive since everyone was doing it.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[DonDadda59]

Plus mj's 80's stats are sooooo inflated

Post '05 rule changes NBA says hello :yaohappy:

[Ne 1]

Post '05 rule changes NBA says hello :yaohappy:
1998-2004.

[Straight_Ballin]

So basically all you've proven is no matter how you look at it, rookie Jordan>Prime Bean :applause:

Not to mention the fact that Jordan was being hand checked in a much more physical era and still put up better fg%.

[OldSchoolBBall]

It's all relative to league average though during their time.

League average was roughly the same (between 53.5%-54.0% TS each year).

[dubeta]

21 year old Lebron > 21 year old (rookie) Jordan > Prime Kobe

[Paul George 24]

21 year old Lebron > 21 year old (rookie) Jordan > Prime Kobe

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