Where would you rank each of those players?

[PistonsFan#21]

On the greatest players of all time list?

Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
John Stockton

Top 20? Top 30? And who do you rank the highest?

[SouBeachTalents]

On the greatest players of all time list?

Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
John Stockton

Top 20? Top 30? And who do you rank the highest?

They're all roughly in the top 30-50 range, with Stockton being ranked highest of all. The rest could be ranked in almost any order imo

[Prime_Shaq]

Just curious, how much weight do you guys think GP's ring hold?

[Kobe_6/8]

On the greatest players of all time list?

Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
John Stockton

Top 20? Top 30? And who do you rank the highest?

Stockton - Top 35
Iverson - Top 50
Kidd - Top 75
Payton - Top 70
Nash - Top 55

I rank Iverson highest for single-handedly dragging the 76'ers to the Finals & giving the 2001 Lakers their only playoff loss.

[PistonsFan#21]

Stockton - Top 35
Iverson - Top 50
Kidd - Top 75
Payton - Top 70
Nash - Top 55

I rank Iverson highest for single-handedly dragging the 76'ers to the Finals & giving the 2001 Lakers their only playoff loss.


You got Stockton top 35 though?

[Kobe_6/8]

You got Stockton top 35 though?

Spelling error. Iverson was an amazing player for his size.

[And1AllDay]

Among these 5 I gotta go:

Stockton
Nash/Iverson/Kidd
Payton

[JellyBean]

On the greatest players of all time list?

Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
John Stockton

Top 20? Top 30? And who do you rank the highest?

John Stockton#29
Steve Nash #30
Gary Payton#31
Allen Iverson#32
Jason Kidd#33

[Fire Colangelo]

Crazy how overrated Stockton is, dude was never a top 5 player in his player and played second fiddle to the best PF ever (before Duncan).

[PistonsFan#21]

Crazy how overrated Stockton is, dude was never a top 5 player in his player and played second fiddle to the best PF ever (before Duncan).

10

[plowking]

Can anyone explain why Stockton gets rated above Nash? Is it all due to defense?

Nash was in my opinion the more creative passer, better shooter, better scorer and more dynamic player.
I think spanning Stockton's entire career, he only score over 30 points 9 times or something ridiculous. Not exactly someone who can carry your offense like Nash has proven he can.

[StephHamann]

Nash is the best of them, imagine a whole career of Nash Malone Pick n Roll with Nash's GOAT shooting :biggums:

[Fire Colangelo]

[QUOTE=PistonsFan#21]10

[plowking]

Literally all of his accolades came from Malone and Sloan's system which is known to inflate assist stats (see Deron Williams). Not saying that he didn't have an impressive career, but against the likes of Nash and Iverson who both carry a MVP? Crazy how he gets rates over them.

Agree. Not that Stockton isn't great, but he is not the offensive player Nash is. Despite being a better defender... it really doesn't mean much at the PG position which is the least influential position on the court in terms of defense.

Nash is as good, if not better as a passer, a far better scorer, more efficient, and just more dynamic and able to carry an offense.

[Derka]

Nash (top 5 PG all-time)
Iverson (carried the 01 Sixers, offensively miles ahead of the rest)
Stockton (the model of consistency and longevity)
Payton (flashes of pure greatness, could have done more with it)
Kidd (made everybody on his team better except himself)

[PistonsFan#21]

Agree. Not that Stockton isn't great, but he is not the offensive player Nash is. Despite being a better defender... it really doesn't mean much at the PG position which is the least influential position on the court in terms of defense.

Nash is as good, if not better as a passer, a far better scorer, more efficient, and just more dynamic and able to carry an offense.

I'll have to disagree with the bold part. Having a weak defender at the guard position puts so much pressure on the rest of the defense. The big man has to help out on the post up or drives which gets them out of position for rebounding and covering their own man. It also makes the offensive guard that much more effective when it comes to creating plays for himself or his teammates.

[Fire Colangelo]

I'll have to disagree with the bold part. Having a weak defender at the guard position puts so much pressure on the rest of the defense. The big man has to help out on the post up or drives which gets them out of position for rebounding and covering their own man. It also makes the offensive guard that much more effective when it comes to creating plays for himself or his teammates.

I don't understand why Nash gets labeled as a "terrible" defender, because he wasn't terrible. He was average as a defender and he actually tries on defense (led the league in charges at one point). It's not like the Suns won games based off of their defense anyways.

On offense however, Nash is miles ahead of Stockton. As a shooter, playmaker, ability to take over games, etc.

Stockton had a nice career, but he was a system player for pretty much his whole career. Guys like Kidd, Nash and Iverson were the system. They're better players.

[FKAri]

I'll have to disagree with the bold part. Having a weak defender at the guard position puts so much pressure on the rest of the defense. The big man has to help out on the post up or drives which gets them out of position for rebounding and covering their own man. It also makes the offensive guard that much more effective when it comes to creating plays for himself or his teammates.

It depends on the era. Back then sure but nowadays if you're a great PG defender and your bigs are terrible defenders you can't really do anything. You can't take chances since they won't have your back and what you do in the pick and roll doesn't matter if your bigs aren't doing their part in it. You can't even handcheck so all you can do force them into a certain direction and funnel them...to your bigs.

Not saying you're useless as a PG defender because you can still fight over screens and recover quickly

[TheBigVeto]

On the greatest players of all time list?

Steve Nash
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
John Stockton

Top 20? Top 30? And who do you rank the highest?

Nash is GOAT PG, so in top 15.
Stockton is 2nd GOAT PG, so between 15 to 25.
Kidd, in top 50.
Iverson, in top 100.
GP, not ranked, overrated.

[L.Kizzle]

Can anyone explain why Stockton gets rated above Nash? Is it all due to defense?

Nash was in my opinion the more creative passer, better shooter, better scorer and more dynamic player.
I think spanning Stockton's entire career, he only score over 30 points 9 times or something ridiculous. Not exactly someone who can carry your offense like Nash has proven he can.
Who cares, when Stock had too he came through.

Stockton
Kidd
Payton
Iverson
Nash

GP/AI/Kidd are the hardest too rank.

[tpols]

Kidd
Nash
iverson
Stockton
payton

[Legends66NBA7]

Just curious, how much weight do you guys think GP's ring hold?

Not enough weight, although he did make big shots for them. Kidd's ring holds more weight, but won it also in a reserve role. Those rings don't seperate them from the rest.

[Rocketswin2013]

Kidd

Nash
Stockton
Payton
Iverson

[TheCorporation]

#1 all-time in assists, and steals
2 records that will (likely) never be broken
To put it into context

Most assists all-time
1. Stockton (15,806)
2. Kidd (12,091)
3. Nash (10,335)

Most steals all-time
1. Stockton (3265)
2. Kidd (2684)
3. Jordan (2514)

Those records aren't really touchable any time soon, and the #2 guy is so far behind it's funny. Sometimes with records at least the #2 guy was close.

Stockton also was very efficient on the offensive end (albeit only scoring 15ppg average during his prime run)

Still, Stockton was putting up 15 points and 12 assists for 9-years in a row, and his LOWEST FG% during that run was 48%. He was peaking at:

Stockton: 17 ppg, 15 apg on 52% FG and 42% 3P with 3 steals per game
Steve Nash: 19 ppg, 12 apg on 53% FG and 46% 3P with 1 steal per game

Very similar stats, but Stockton's overall longevity, and those records...

Stockton
Nash
Kidd/Iverson

Payton

[Fire Colangelo]

#1 all-time in assists, and steals
2 records that will (likely) never be broken
To put it into context

Most assists all-time
1. Stockton (15,806)
2. Kidd (12,091)
3. Nash (10,335)

Most steals all-time
1. Stockton (3265)
2. Kidd (2684)
3. Jordan (2514)

Those records aren't really touchable any time soon, and the #2 guy is so far behind it's funny. Sometimes with records at least the #2 guy was close.

Stockton also was very efficient on the offensive end (albeit only scoring 15ppg average during his prime run)

Still, Stockton was putting up 15 points and 12 assists for 9-years in a row, and his LOWEST FG% during that run was 48%. He was peaking at:

Stockton: 17 ppg, 15 apg on 52% FG and 42% 3P with 3 steals per game
Steve Nash: 19 ppg, 12 apg on 53% FG and 46% 3P with 1 steal per game

Very similar stats, but Stockton's overall longevity, and those records...

Stockton
Nash
Kidd/Iverson

Payton

Was Stockton ever the best PG in the league? MVP? Top 5 player?

Longevity records are nice (Kidd and Nash had good longevity as well).... but who were the better player in their primes? Who would you build a team around? Stockton or Kidd/Nash/Iverson?

[TheCorporation]

Was Stockton ever the best PG in the league? MVP? Top 5 player?

Longevity records are nice (Kidd and Nash had good longevity as well).... but who were the better player in their primes? Who would you build a team around? Stockton or Kidd/Nash/Iverson?

Longevity records have to account for a lot in a list of who's who. We already know these point guards are great, had similar peaks (in terms of numbers) both never won a ring (And Payton/Kidd didn't win one as "the man").

If we didn't look at longevity as a deciding factor then maybe Tracy McGrady or Gilbert Arenas would be considered extremely high ranked guards.

They both had a great 2-season peak, but when you're comparing all-time greats you have to look at longevity.

[GimmeThat]

if we go by the painful reality that each and all historians must face, in that there are simply players who aren't really cut out for the league, especially when it comes to winning, and winning the championship. note: not every player makes it into the league longer than your average 2 extensions, or even make it past one franchise.


in consideration of the all time list, which means that players in other positions will also be ranked in between them:

Nash

Iverson
Stockton
Kidd/Payton
top 80

Imagine if Iverson late in his career, had someone like Randy Foye, or Leandro Barbosa coming off the bench for him. It would be similar to what Payton had with his stint in Miami.

since the simple assumption is that my list isn't perfect

if right around the 92-93 season, Stockton was offered or had the opportunity to sign with another team like the Suns, or the Spurs, how does that affect how you'd still rank/see him.


and you know, had this been about who you'd take on a championship caliber team, and not one to build with, it would be much much easier.

you can't not duck Kidd, the same way with Stockton if you value scoring
you can't not duck Payton the same way with Iverson if you value positional possessions.


Steve Nash can be considered as a Bill Walton who did not have to endure the multiple injuries beyond just the back.

[PsychoBe]

Was Stockton ever the best PG in the league? MVP? Top 5 player?

Longevity records are nice (Kidd and Nash had good longevity as well).... but who were the better player in their primes? Who would you build a team around? Stockton or Kidd/Nash/Iverson?

a better question is why wouldn't you build a team around someone who had longer longevity? :facepalm

do you want to have a smaller window of opportunity or something?

stockton hit a legendary game winner in the wcf. literally no other pg on that list has done that.

[GimmeThat]

They both had a great 2-season peak, but when you're comparing all-time greats you have to look at longevity.

its an important criteria, and it generates doubts in our mind when analyzing team sports performances.

with that said, where would you rank Robert Perish in comparison to the likes of Bob Pettit, Elvin Hayes, and Kevin Garnett

[PsychoBe]

its an important criteria, and it generates doubts in our mind when analyzing team sports performances.

with that said, where would you rank Robert Perish in comparison to the likes of Bob Pettit, Elvin Hayes, and Kevin Garnett

dumb comparison.

bob pettit was a legendary player and champion

i dont know much about elvin hays

and kg was a former mvp and literally lead his team to the wcf.

you might as well had said "horry > jordan"

[Legends66NBA7]

stockton hit a legendary game winner in the wcf. literally no other pg on that list has done that.

Iverson's game 1 in the finals > anything the rest have done.

[Fallen Angel]

John Stockton- Top 20
Jason Kidd- Top 40
Gary Payton- Top 50
Allen Iverson- Top 50
Steve Nash- Top 50