Why does Magics defense get a pass on alltime lists?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Hes by far the worst defender in the top 10 alltime. Ppl criticize Russell for his sht scoring but what about Magics defense? He was average AT BEST, he wasnt no Nash or anything but he struggled alot against PGs did better against SFs but wasnt great.

Really u have to go down the line to Barkley before u see another player that was as bad or worse on D that him. Even Bird who many now strangely rank over 5 spots lower than Magic was a really good defender early on in his career before he turned into a cripple but even then he was a solid PF defender

so whats the deal? Why does Magic get a pass? :confusedshrug: how can u objectively say hes a better overall player than players like Kobe, Hakeem, KG etc:confusedshrug:

[dubeta]

True, Lebron > Magic

1 less FMVP

1 more MVP


and better stats

[warriorfan]

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1991.html

AIDS ridden post prime Magic still had enormous impact

[FKAri]

Because there was no scrutiny back then. Nowadays Kobe and Lebron get chit on for every misstep. Oh then there's Duncan who seems to get by unscathed cuz of his low key personality I think.

[bizil]

Magic DOESN'T get a pass for his defense. The MAIN REASON why MJ passed Magic and Bird by as the best player in the league in the Golden Age was defense.

GOAT status factors solo accolades, team accolades, numbers, longevity being great, and impact on the league. When u factor ALL OF THOSE THINGS, Magic is clearly a top 5 GOAT icon.

Magic's defensive shortcomings aren't enough to knock him from that perch. He was a great passer, a great rebounding guard, and an alpha dog scorer from the PG position. And of course he could play PG-PF and at times center. Peak wise, Kobe has a great argument over Magic. I am one of those who would take Kobe over Magic peak wise.

But GOAT wise, I think Magic has the edge on Kobe. Those three MVP's and redefining basketball give him the edge on Kobe GOAT wise. Until Lebron came around, Magic was likely the most unique basketball player of all time. THAT HOLDS a lot of weight.

[Wade's Rings]

True, Lebron > Magic

1 less FMVP

1 more MVP


and better stats

Are you talking about Bron who let Kawhi light him up for 69% shooting in the 2014 Finals?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1991.html

AIDS ridden post prime Magic still had enormous impact
Terry Porter>Peak MJ
Hakeem a negative on offense
Michael Adams>KJ, Price, Mailman, Ewing, Nique, Hill

http://www.thecoli.com/media/mj-shot-by-dahell.2996/full

[Hey Yo]

Magic DOESN'T get a pass for his defense. The MAIN REASON why MJ passed Magic and Bird by as the best player in the league in the Golden Age was defense.

GOAT status factors solo accolades, team accolades, numbers, longevity being great, and impact on the league. When u factor ALL OF THOSE THINGS, Magic is clearly a top 5 GOAT icon.

Magic's defensive shortcomings aren't enough to knock him from that perch. He was a great passer, a great rebounding guard, and an alpha dog scorer from the PG position. And of course he could play PG-PF and at times center. Peak wise, Kobe has a great argument over Magic. I am one of those who would take Kobe over Magic peak wise.

But GOAT wise, I think Magic has the edge on Kobe. Those three MVP's and redefining basketball give him the edge on Kobe GOAT wise. Until Lebron came around, Magic was likely the most unique basketball player of all time. THAT HOLDS a lot of weight.
:biggums:

He pounded the rock while backing down his opponent in the low post. Would have had to adjust his game if there was the "back-to-the-basket" 5 second rule back then.

[warriorfan]

Terry Porter>Peak MJ
Hakeem a negative on offense
Michael Adams>KJ, Price, Mailman, Ewing, Nique, Hill

http://www.thecoli.com/media/mj-shot-by-dahell.2996/full

Do you know early 90's basketball outside of MJ?

Hakeem was battling injuries all year in 91. He missed half the season and the games he did play he wasn't healthy.

Terry Porter was a stud that year and the 91 Blazers were an elite team that went to into the playoffs only to lose to the Lakers in WCF. They played a fast paced game where himself and Clyde Drexler were deadly in transition and it lead them to a 2nd ranked offense in the league. I'm not saying that Terry Porter was better than MJ but you can't act like his impact wasn't close that year.

In 1991 Michael Adams put up 26 points / 10 assists / 4 boards / 2 steals a game

[bizil]

:biggums:

He pounded the rock while backing down his opponent in the low post. Would have had to adjust his game if there was the "back-to-the-basket" 5 second rule back then.

Magic back in the day was an alpha dog scorer from the PG position. He was a pass first PG BUT could take over a game scoring on an alpha dog level. He proved that as a rookie winning a ring. BUT he played with guys like Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, Nixon, McAdoo, and B Scott. So he didn't have to be a volume kind of scorer. Plus his mentality was pass first.

Secondly, Magic had many tools to score with. He DIDN'T just score by backing down his opponent in the low post. MANY TEAMS put bigger wing defenders on Magic. Magic could face them up and slash to the rack. He would give them quick moves in the post when he posted them up. And if teams put a PF on him, then that guy was really in trouble!

And if Magic was in today's game, he would have adapted EASILY! The five second backdown rule u talked about was done MORE because of Barkley than Magic. Barkley was more attached to that rule change. Barkley or Magic would be BEASTS in any era regardless of that rule.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Terry Porter was a stud that year and the 91 Blazers were an elite team that went to into the playoffs only to lose to the Lakers in WCF. They played a fast paced game where himself and Clyde Drexler were deadly in transition and it lead them to a 2nd ranked offense in the league. I'm not saying that Terry Porter was better than MJ but you can't act like his impact wasn't close that year.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: this nikka just said Terry Porters impact in 91 was close to PEAK JORDAN:roll: :roll: :roll:

[juju151111]

Do you know early 90's basketball outside of MJ?

Hakeem was battling injuries all year in 91. He missed half the season and the games he did play he wasn't healthy.

Terry Porter was a stud that year and the 91 Blazers were an elite team that went to into the playoffs only to lose to the Lakers in WCF. They played a fast paced game where himself and Clyde Drexler were deadly in transition and it lead them to a 2nd ranked offense in the league. I'm not saying that Terry Porter was better than MJ but you can't act like his impact wasn't close that year.

In 1991 Michael Adams put up 26 points / 10 assists / 4 boards / 2 steals a game
Bro sit down. RAPM are not accurate before 97. Terry Porter having more impact then peak Mj is a joke

[gts]

:biggums:

He pounded the rock while backing down his opponent in the low post. Would have had to adjust his game if there was the "back-to-the-basket" 5 second rule back then.:facepalm

[warriorfan]

Bro sit down. RAPM are not accurate before 97. Terry Porter having more impact then peak Mj is a joke

It's not 100 percent accurate but it's not 100 percent wrong at the same time. No one ever said Terry Porter had more impact than Jordan in '91. Still, Terry Porter had an absolutely insane year in '91, you guys are not grasping how good he was that season.

[Genaro]

Because Offense > Defense.
And BTW he doesn't get a really pass. Most people don't have him in the top 3 (witch he could be if only factoring accolades and offensive game)

[ArbitraryWater]

Do you know early 90's basketball outside of MJ?

Hakeem was battling injuries all year in 91. He missed half the season and the games he did play he wasn't healthy.

Terry Porter was a stud that year and the 91 Blazers were an elite team that went to into the playoffs only to lose to the Lakers in WCF. They played a fast paced game where himself and Clyde Drexler were deadly in transition and it lead them to a 2nd ranked offense in the league. I'm not saying that Terry Porter was better than MJ but you can't act like his impact wasn't close that year.

In 1991 Michael Adams put up 26 points / 10 assists / 4 boards / 2 steals a game


http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/iQhfIsCHNAYMe_zpsrlxmjxiy.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/MaleRuler/media/GIFs/iQhfIsCHNAYMe_zpsrlxmjxiy.gif.html)

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Bro sit down. RAPM are not accurate before 97. Terry Porter having more impact then peak Mj is a joke
Hes a perfect example of a retard that can contextualize stats. He was tryna say Steph is top 5 all time from raw plus minus, when Draymond Green was right there too :lol :lol

[BasedTom]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: this nikka just said Terry Porters impact in 91 was close to PEAK JORDAN:roll: :roll: :roll:
:dancin :dancin :dancin

[warriorfan]

1991 Porter 17 ppg / 8 ast / 3.5 reb / 2 steal / 2.5 TO / TS% .632

1991 Jordan 31 ppg / 6 ast / 5 reb / 2.5 steal / 2.5 TO / TS% .605



Jordan is obviously better but is anyone gonna deny that Porter didn't have an insane year?

[bizil]

When it comes peak value, I could see some arguing these perimeter players over Magic:

MJ
Bron
Kobe
Bird
Big O

In my opinion, u have to be a player in that 6'5 to 6'9 range that's a great all around player. U gotta be able to play a minimum of three positions well and a great offensive player (scoring and passing wise). But GOAT wise, MJ is the only one I would take over Magic. Peak value and GOAT status is two different things.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

When it comes peak value, I could see some arguing these perimeter players over Magic:

MJ
Bron
Kobe
Bird
Big O

In my opinion, u have to be a player in that 6'5 to 6'9 range that's a great all around player. U gotta be able to play a minimum of three positions well and a great offensive player (scoring and passing wise). But GOAT wise, MJ is the only one I would take over Magic. Peak value and GOAT status is two different things.
Peak Jerry, peak CP and peak Wade have an argument over peak Magic and theyre under 6'5

[SouBeachTalents]

A lot of the older players simply get held to a different standard than LeBron & Kobe do. Magic's a great example

Kobe gets ripped on constantly for playing with Shaq, yet you almost never hear Magic's accomplishments get diminished for playing with Kareem.

Same goes for the weak East being held against LeBron, yet the '80's West was arguably just as bad, if not worse in certain seasons, and that isn't mentioned nearly as often.

Finally, people like to bring up how "stacked" LeBron's teams are, yet Magic played with the arguable GOAT in Kareem, an All-NBA caliber player & Finals MVP in Worthy, two additional 20 ppg caliber players in Scott & Wilkes, an all time great defender & DPOY winner in Cooper, and with Pat Riley at the helm. That's a stacked as **** team, yet nobody calls out Magic for that one either.

I'm sure some are nostalgic for the past, but it's complete bullshit to me

[Hey Yo]

When it comes peak value, I could see some arguing these perimeter players over Magic:

MJ
Bron
Kobe
Bird
Big O

In my opinion, u have to be a player in that 6'5 to 6'9 range that's a great all around player. U gotta be able to play a minimum of three positions well and a great offensive player (scoring and passing wise). But GOAT wise, MJ is the only one I would take over Magic. Peak value and GOAT status is two different things.
But that wasn't Magic.

He only excelled at one end of the floor and didn't scare anyone from the perimeter cause he couldn't shoot

Just pass to Kareem for the sky-hook and others to score, then rely on others on defense.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

A lot of the older players simply get held to a different standard than LeBron & Kobe do. Magic's a great example

Kobe gets ripped on constantly for playing with Shaq, yet you almost never hear Magic's accomplishments get diminished for playing with Kareem.

Same goes for the weak East being held against LeBron, yet the '80's West was arguably just as bad, if not worse in certain seasons, and that isn't mentioned even close to as often.

Finally, people like to bring up how "stacked" LeBron's teams are, yet Magic played with the arguable GOAT in Kareem, All-NBA caliber player & Finals MVP in Worthy, two additional 20 ppg caliber players in Scott & Wilkes, an all time great defender & DPOY winner in Cooper, and with Pat Riley at the helm. That's a stacked as **** team, yet nobody calls out Magic for that one either.

I'm sure some are nostalgic for the past, but it's complete bullshit to me
Magic is prolly the most babied alltime great for sure. Its prolly b/c of his flashy play that everyone loves, highlight all the things he did great, ignore his faults. Havent seen it with any other great to that level

[warriorfan]

Magic is prolly the most babied alltime great for sure. Its prolly b/c of his flashy play that everyone loves, highlight all the things he did great, ignore his faults. Havent seen it with any other great to that level

what is even crazier is that everyone ignores that he was gay

[Kobe_6/8]

what is even crazier is that everyone ignores that he was gay

+1 point to the 'Homosexuality is genetic' crew.

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/ej-copy.jpg

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

^^ good posts
might have to dock him even MORE on my alltime list. How did an alpha, blue collar badass like Larry Legend become best friends with this flashy, silver spoon, fruity tooty:facepalm :facepalm

[TheBigVeto]

Only to Lakertards his defense gets a pass.

His defense is worse than Steve Nash's.

But he's still a top 5 PG of all time.

[LAZERUSS]

Only to Lakertards his defense gets a pass.

His defense is worse than Steve Nash's.

But he's still a top 5 PG of all time.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

He is THE greatest PG of all-time, and it is not close my friend.

He has a legitimate case for GOAT as well.

The greatest "winner" in NBA history.

[TheBigVeto]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

He is THE greatest PG of all-time, and it is not close my friend.

He has a legitimate case for GOAT as well.

The greatest "winner" in NBA history.

Nope
Nope
and
Nope.

[Pointguard]

Magic's control of the game is far better than any other top 10 GOAT so his defense has to be overlooked. Magic made you play his game, his pace, his way. Through his control of the game he affected the way his opponents played in a way no rim protecting center ever could.

Because Magic could get teams to adjust to his running, post game, passing game, feature other players game, slow it down when ahead game, or suck you into not playing to the strength of their game its something a little better than individual defense does.

Its something Popovich loves in a PG and he coveted J Kidd for years. J Kidd could really dominate a game without scoring because of this trait - he could win six series in two years with Kerry Kittles, Keith Van Horn, rookie Richard Jefferson, Todd McCollugh and Kmart. SA will usually beat an inexperienced team because of their control of the game. They did it to repeat champions Heat. which had much better talent.

What effect could it have on an experienced team? When Magic saw that the Celtics were short handed, Magic went directly for their wind by pushing the ball. Ainge shot 4 for 24 in the 2 elimination games of '85 and '87 and Bird 37% because of playing Magic's game. Bird shot 12 for 29, Ainge shot 3 for 16 (188%) Dennis Johnson shot 3 for 15 (200%) all of whom were clutch shooters, Should qualify as one of the best defensive efforts in a closeout game.

Not everybody can push the ball effectively. You hear about players that can take over the game. Magic always has control of the game. So he was the worse defender of the GOATs in the traditional sense, but opponents were always playing on their heels, and dealing with why their offense was out of whack.

[SouBeachTalents]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

He is THE greatest PG of all-time, and it is not close my friend.

He has a legitimate case for GOAT as well.

The greatest "winner" in NBA history.

Magic has no argument for GOAT over Jordan

[Pointguard]

A lot of the older players simply get held to a different standard than LeBron & Kobe do. Magic's a great example

Kobe gets ripped on constantly for playing with Shaq, yet you almost never hear Magic's accomplishments get diminished for playing with Kareem.

Kareem's career totally changed with the appearance of Magic. Magic ran the team, made all the key decisions, featured all the players, harmonized the game, got the team easy baskets... .


Same goes for the weak East being held against LeBron, yet the '80's West was arguably just as bad, if not worse in certain seasons, and that isn't mentioned nearly as often.
Magic beat three of the best defensive teams from the East and probably top five ever best defensive teams with loaded offensive weapons. Magic's five rings were all against great teams or top teams ever. They fought for all they got.



I'm sure some are nostalgic for the past, but it's complete bullshit to me

[Spurs5Rings2014]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

He is THE greatest PG of all-time, and it is not close my friend.

He has a legitimate case for GOAT as well.

The greatest "winner" in NBA history.

Everyone already knows you have an obvious agenda to prop up Magic at the expense of Kareem because of Wilt. Let's not turn this into another one of those many threads.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic has no argument for GOAT over Jordan

YES he does my friend.

The Jordanites will always give you "6/6." The REALITY was, he was "6/15." Furthermore, in the decade of the 90's, he was "6/8" with competitive teams in EVERY season.

This has been beat to death, but one more time...how good were MJ's supporting casts in the 90's? In MJ's 92-93 season, Chicago went 57-25 and won the title. He abruptly retired, and the Bulls scrambled to replace him...ultimately with the great Pete Myers.

The '93-94 Bulls went 55-27, which was deceptive. Their two best players, Pippen and Grant, missed 10 and 13 games.Had those two been healthy, and they likely would have won 60+ games. Which ultimately was the difference in that post-season. They lost a close (and controversial) seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's. The same Knicks team that would lose a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and they outscored them in that series.) Again, a healthy Bulls team likely has HCA, and I suspect...yet another title.

And how about the very next season? Grant was now playing in Orlando, and Pippen, by himself, took the Bulls to a 35-31 record. Jordan came back in the last 17 games, and by the time the playoffs rolled around, he was fully refreshed, and likely the healthiest player in the post-season. Furthermore, his post-season stats were nearly identical to his '92-93 run, and would be significantly better than his 95-96 run. The result? His Bulls were beaten 4-2, by Shaq's Magic, in the ECSF's. The same Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

BTW, I have seen those posters who use the '91 Finals against Magic. Well, a '91 Johnson, while still great, was slower, heavier, and nowhere near as great as a PEAK Magic.

How about an MJ comparison in Magic's PEAK season, in '87?


Now let's actually put in a PEAK Magic, and not some way-past-his-prime Magic that carried a shell of what had been a dynasty in the 80's, past a peak Blazer team in the WCF's, and then up against a peak Jordan (and with Pippen being the one to slow him down), with his stacked roster that wiped out Magic's rapidly declining, and injury-plagued roster in the '91 Finals.

How about Magic at HIS PEAK, in 86-87.

First, MJ vs. Magic...

MJ: 37.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, .429 FG%, .875 FT%, .474 TS%
Magic: 29.0 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 12.5 apg, .500 FG%, .933 FT%, .563 TS%.
Oh, and 2-0 W-L


MJ vs. Boston in regular season, and Magic vs. Boston in regular season:

MJ: 29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, .428 FG%, .820 FT%
Magic: 35.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 9.0 rpg, .556 FG%, .864 FT%


How about MJ vs, Boston, and Magic vs. Boston in that same post-season:

MJ: 35.7 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 6.0 apg, .417 FG%, .817 FT%, .529 TS%
Magic: 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, .541 FG%, .960 FT%, .590 TS%

Oh, and MJ's Bulls vs. Boston in the playoffs... 0-3
Magic's Lakers vs. Boston in the Finals... 4-2

BTW, MJ in his '87 season averaged a career high 37.1 ppg. And yet a PEAK Magic was FAR greater.


Another point.

Magic's Laker played teams like the Sixers from the first half of the 80's, the Bad Boys from the last half of the 80's, and the Celtics for the entire decade of the 80's. He took his team to EIGHT Finals, and won FIVE rings in that decade, and beat the peak Sixers twice, the peak Bad Boys once, and the peak Celtics, twice.

Compare that with MJ's 90's run.

He finally beat a washed-up Pistons team, and then a washed-up Lakers team in the '91 playoffs and Finals.

He beat a 57-25 Blazers team in the '92 Finals, with the same roster that somehow Magic beat the year before when they went 63-19.

He beat a defenseless Suns team in the '93 Finals.

Oh, and how good was his rosters in the 90's? His '94 team, with the legendary Pete Myers replacing him, went 55-27, which was deceptive, since Pippen missed 10 games, as well as other teammates missing games. They could easily have won 60+ games. And it was too bad, too, since they did not have HCA against a 56-26 Knicks team that they took to a close and controversial seven game series...the same Knicks team that lost a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them BTW.)

Then, they basically replaced Grant with Rodman, and Paxson with Kerr, and won three more titles.

MJ's '96 Bulls beat a Sonics team with Payton and Kemp, and not much else, in a series in which MJ averaged 27 ppg on a .415 FG%.

Then MJ's Bulls beat the Stockton-Malone Jazz in two straight Finals, in series in which MJ shot .455 and .427.


Think about this...

Was there ANY team that MJ faced in the 90's that was even remotely close to the Sixers, Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers in the 80's?

I can safely make this claim...MJ's 90's Bulls don't go 6-8 in the 80's. Hell, they might not have won a ring in that decade.

And again...as above...put MJ's 90's Bulls into the 80's, and he is not coming close to "6/6."

[Pointguard]

Magic has no argument for GOAT over Jordan
You can make an argument that Magic played in a far better era [five in the greatest era is greater than six in a mediocre one) and won 3 times to 1 where their careers overlapped if you are gung ho over the ring argument. Magic was the best team player ever. It kind of becomes apples and oranges because of their different approach to the game. I have Jordan ahead but its not outlandish at all.

[LAZERUSS]

Everyone already knows you have an obvious agenda to prop up Magic at the expense of Kareem because of Wilt. Let's not turn this into another one of those many threads.

This is NOT about Kareem and Wilt...albeit, Wilt was the better player.

In all honesty...Magic > Kareem.

[bizil]

Peak Jerry, peak CP and peak Wade have an argument over peak Magic and theyre under 6'5

I disagree on all three. They aren't as versatile as Magic was. I said guys 6'5 to 6'9 because those guys have the VERSATILITY to play more positions. That added versatility can often times be the tiebreaker. As great as Wade, West, and CP are or were, I would take Magic's peak value over all three.

[bizil]

But that wasn't Magic.

He only excelled at one end of the floor and didn't scare anyone from the perimeter cause he couldn't shoot

Just pass to Kareem for the sky-hook and others to score, then rely on others on defense.

Magic was still a great all around player despite his defense. He was a great passer, great rebounder, and had alpha dog scoring skills. So he's GREAT at three of the four top elements in basketball. VERY FEW GUYS on the perimeter are great at scoring, passing, and defense for their given position:

MJ
Bron
Kobe
Wade
West
Hondo
Grant Hill (before injuries)

PG's who would qualify:

CP3
Frazier
Gary Payton

These are some of the guys historically who qualify. To be a great scorer, passer, and defender on the perimeter is VERY RARE! If they happen to be a great rebounder then that's a bonus.

[GimmeThat]

my guess is that you can say his defense gets a pass from clips of video tapes. but if you watched the games he played, or went up against someone like him. you can tell/know he took mental notes as to how his defenders may have scored, how many points, and how he was going to be a + on the stat sheet over his opponents, which eventually shows up.

but on a side note.

the people at forbes have had to felt a pretty strong insult looking at how ISHs list for basketball players, considering they have to publish a most influential list every year

also a subtle jab at the bleacher report would be fun.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic's dominance at the offensive end...his actual production...FAR outweighs any perception on his defense.

He was a total mis-match for the other guards in the NBA.

[SouBeachTalents]

YES he does my friend.

The Jordanites will always give you "6/6." The REALITY was, he was "6/15." Furthermore, in the decade of the 90's, he was "6/8" with competitive teams in EVERY season.

This has been beat to death, but one more time...how good were MJ's supporting casts in the 90's? In MJ's 92-93 season, Chicago went 57-25 and won the title. He abruptly retired, and the Bulls scrambled to replace him...ultimately with the great Pete Myers.

The '93-94 Bulls went 55-27, which was deceptive. Their two best players, Pippen and Grant, missed 10 and 13 games.Had those two been healthy, and they likely would have won 60+ games. Which ultimately was the difference in that post-season. They lost a close (and controversial) seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's. The same Knicks team that would lose a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and they outscored them in that series.) Again, a healthy Bulls team likely has HCA, and I suspect...yet another title.

And how about the very next season? Grant was now playing in Orlando, and Pippen, by himself, took the Bulls to a 35-31 record. Jordan came back in the last 17 games, and by the time the playoffs rolled around, he was fully refreshed, and likely the healthiest player in the post-season. Furthermore, his post-season stats were nearly identical to his '92-93 run, and would be significantly better than his 95-96 run. The result? His Bulls were beaten 4-2, by Shaq's Magic, in the ECSF's. The same Magic team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

BTW, I have seen those posters who use the '91 Finals against Magic. Well, a '91 Johnson, while still great, was slower, heavier, and nowhere near as great as a PEAK Magic.

How about an MJ comparison in Magic's PEAK season, in '87?



And again...as above...put MJ's 90's Bulls into the 80's, and he is not coming close to "6/6."


Kareem's career totally changed with the appearance of Magic. Magic ran the team, made all the key decisions, featured all the players, harmonized the game, got the team easy baskets... .

Magic beat three of the best defensive teams from the East and probably top five ever best defensive teams with loaded offensive weapons. Magic's five rings were all against great teams or top teams ever. They fought for all they got.

Magic did face tougher competition at least Finals wise than Jordan did, I agree with that, but like I said his competition to get there is as bad as the East this decade has been, if not worse. Seriously, check out his playoff competition in his '84, '85, and '87 Finals runs, they make LeBron's last 3 Finals runs look like a herculean effort

My biggest issues with Magic over Jordan is one, he won less rings with an arguably more stacked team with cakewalks to the Finals several times. And two, my biggest issue is while they were both all time great offensive players (in different capacities obviously), Jordan is an all time great defender and Magic was what, average at best on defense? When there's such a tremendous difference on one side of the ball like that, it's difficult, at least imo, to say that Magic was better than Jordan, or should be ranked higher than him

[warriorfan]

Everyone already knows you have an obvious agenda to prop up Magic at the expense of Kareem because of Wilt. Let's not turn this into another one of those many threads.

ether

[juju151111]

You can make an argument that Magic played in a far better era [five in the greatest era is greater than six in a mediocre one) and won 3 times to 1 where their careers overlapped if you are gung ho over the ring argument. Magic was the best team player ever. It kind of becomes apples and oranges because of their different approach to the game. I have Jordan ahead but its not outlandish at all.
Magic has zero argument over Mj. Absolutely none. MMj wins in mvps,finals mvps,defense,rings etc..

[eliteballer]

Magic led the league in steals.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic has zero argument over Mj. Absolutely none. MMj wins in mvps,finals mvps,defense,rings etc..

Again...put MJ's 90's Bulls into the 80's, and MJ is not winning more rings nor FMVPs than Magic.

[LAZERUSS]

Magic did face tougher competition at least Finals wise than Jordan did, I agree with that, but like I said his competition to get there is as bad as the East this decade has been, if not worse. Seriously, check out his playoff competition in his '84, '85, and '87 Finals runs, they make LeBron's last 3 Finals runs look like a herculean effort

My biggest issues with Magic over Jordan is one, he won less rings with an arguably more stacked team with cakewalks to the Finals several times. And two, my biggest issue is while they were both all time great offensive players (in different capacities obviously), Jordan is an all time great defender and Magic was what, average at best on defense? When there's such a tremendous difference on one side of the ball like that, it's difficult, at least imo, to say that Magic was better than Jordan, or should be ranked higher than him

From another topic...


What do you think of Bird then?

Here are the FACTS my friend.

Magic's teams beat 13 50+ win teams, and two of them won 60+ games.

Bird's Celtics beat 10 50+ win teams, and only one of them won 60+ games.


In the Finals, Magic's teams beat the 59-23 Sixers, the 58-24 Sixers, the 63-19 Celtics, the 59-23 Celtics, and the 54-28 Pistons.
Bird's Celtics beat the 40-42 Rockets, the 54-28 Lakers, and the 51-31 Rockets.



Furthermore, Magic's teams beat two 50+ win teams, and one 60+ win team AFTER Kareem retired.


Magic is THE greatest "winner" (Career W-L%) in NBA history. And BTW, his career W-L% was .740. In all of his games withOUT Kareem (including his 95-96 season)... .742.

[SouBeachTalents]

From another topic...

That didn't address defense, which imo is the biggest reason why it's crazy to have Magic over Jordan

[Kukoc]

THe same as Kobe Bryants defense also does.

Magic was the greatest passer and a good scorer. He could play positions from 1-5.

Won his first ring as a rookie when he had to play center.

When you are that good and the offense and you are that versatile, I give his defense a pass.
And his defense wasnt that bad.

[LAZERUSS]

That didn't address defense, which imo is the biggest reason why it's crazy to have Magic over Jordan

Magic is one of three players that I consider the best at ELEVATING the play of their teammates...with Russell and Duncan being the other two. And no other player in NBA CONTROLLED the game, better than Magic.

Player-for-player, played better, to much better, with Magic, than without. Even Kareem had his efficiency go thru the roof in the 80's, and way his past his prime. Take a look at Worthy, Scott, Nixon, Wilkes, et al, with, and withOUT Magic.

There was a reason that Magic immediately turned the Lakers into a 60 win champion in his very first season, and then two seasons of 63-19 and 58-24 withOUT Kareem...and then to records of 43-39 and 39-43 withOUT MAGIC.

He DRAMATICALLY elevated the play of his teammates, and played brilliantly in his biggest games.

[bizil]

Magic led the league in steals.

He sure did! Magic was a very good to great team defender. For example, I'm sure Magic knew the offensive traits of the opponent. AND NOT JUST players at his position. Magic probably knew what the all the key offensive guys could do. So when it came to passing lanes, double downs, double teams on the perimeter, etc. Magic had great timing in those kind of circumstances.

And due to Magic's size, The Lakers could let the guys Coop, Scott, Worthy, and even a PF like AC Green defend the perimeter guys. AC Green was a versatile defender back in the day who guarded SF's and big swingmen.

SO THAT allowed Magic to fluctuate his defensive matchup between four positions. So on a team like the Lakers, his defensive shortcomings weren't as noticeable actually.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Magic led the league in steals.
So did Allen Iverson:roll: :roll: u reachin:no:

[kshutts1]

Magic is the "First one out" of my first tier. He's still currently in the first tier, though, but his D and lack of outside shooting, as well as a small sample size of being "the man, the #1 guy" all keep him on the edge.

[kshutts1]

Magic's control of the game is far better than any other top 10 GOAT so his defense has to be overlooked. Magic made you play his game, his pace, his way. Through his control of the game he affected the way his opponents played in a way no rim protecting center ever could.

Because Magic could get teams to adjust to his running, post game, passing game, feature other players game, slow it down when ahead game, or suck you into not playing to the strength of their game its something a little better than individual defense does.

Its something Popovich loves in PG and he coveted J Kidd for years. J Kidd could really dominate a game without scoring because of this trait - he could win six series in two years with Kerry Kittles, Keith Van Horn, rookie Richard Jefferson, Todd McCollugh and Kmart. SA will usually beat an inexperienced team because of their control of the game. They did it to repeat champions Heat. which had much better talent.

What effect could it have on an experienced team? When Magic saw that the Celtics were short handed, Magic went directly for their wind by pushing the ball. Ainge shot 4 for 24 in the 2 elimination games of '85 and '87 and Bird 37% because of playing Magic's game. Bird shot 12 for 29, Ainge shot 3 for 16 (188%) Dennis Johnson shot 3 for 15 (200%) all of whom were clutch shooters,

Not everybody can push the ball effectively. You hear about players that can take over the game. Magic always has control of the game. So he was the worse defender in the traditional sense, but opponents were always playing on their heels, and dealing with why their offense was out of whack.
Really awesome post. And, not to derail from this thread, but the above reasons are why I thought Lebron played out of his mind in these finals. That's why his FG% doesn't bother me.

But that was an awesome post.

[dunksby]

It's because he was the media's darling with his sweet smile and good PR.

[LAZERUSS]

It's because he was the media's darling with his sweet smile and good PR.

As well as the best player in the league in the decade of the 80's.

[Asukal]

Again...put MJ's 90's Bulls into the 80's, and MJ is not winning more rings nor FMVPs than Magic.

Put Wilt's 67 and 72 teams into the 80's or 90's and he wins ZERO rings. :rolleyes:

[dunksby]

Magic won jack squat without Kareem, dude couldnt do it with stacked teams, was not the best player on those Lakers team till 86 and did not play on both ends. Also let other men violate him.

[NumberSix]

It is a little strange. Couldn't play D, and couldn't shoot.

[bizil]

By reading some of these posts, people are confusing peak value with GOAT status. Despite what people think about Magic's defense or shooting, HIS RESUME DICTATES that's he's in the top five GOAT. For example, Bill Russell GOAT wise is widely seen as a top five player. But PEAK WISE, I don't think Russell is even in the top 20.

Magic's scoring skillset over time became very good. Once Kareem started to regress more and more, Magic's scoring AND scoring skillset improved. I would say he was a great postup player, great free throw shooter, and great slasher. His midrange became very good as well.

[Pointguard]

Magic led the league in steals.
And Magic's steals were among the most impactful defensive plays in the game ever: Not only was it a five or four point turn around, but Magic used the opportunity, to get a teammate a jumpstart with an easy basket and to increase tempo. Teams played weary of Magic playing the passing lanes and played more conservatively and on their heels.

[TheBigVeto]

THe same as Kobe Bryants defense also does.

Magic was the greatest passer and a good scorer. He could play positions from 1-5.

Won his first ring as a rookie when he had to play center.

When you are that good and the offense and you are that versatile, I give his defense a pass.
And his defense wasnt that bad.

Magic can play center because he got his first ring playing as one in one finals game is one of the biggest baloneys in the history of the league. If he were to play more games as center, the other 80s centers would bang him to oblivion just like the dude who gave him HIV.

[warriorfan]

Magic can play center because he got his first ring playing as one in one finals game is one of the biggest baloneys in the history of the league. If he were to play more games as center, the other 80s centers would bang him to oblivion just like the dude who gave him HIV.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/409a839ece0f3807d23861fc6e744568/tumblr_n6zdmspPiE1skh0gdo1_400.gif

[TheCorporation]

Well, he did get to the NBA Finals 9-times, and won 3-NBA Finals MVPs

People who have won 3 Finals MVPs

Jordan
Shaq
Magic
Duncan

That's it

[Pointguard]

Well, he did get to the NBA Finals 9-times, and won 3-NBA Finals MVPs

People who have won 3 Finals MVPs

Jordan
Shaq
Magic
Duncan

That's it
And Magic got two of his against all time great defensive teams. And Boston was a top defensive team a year before too. The other Guys might have one between them and all looked pretty bad when they did face top defensive teams.

[jzek]

cos without Magic, the modern era would have been delayed by 10 years (jordan's arrival)

he's a pioneer and deserves a pass

[Nash]

Terry Porter>Peak MJ
Hakeem a negative on offense
Michael Adams>KJ, Price, Mailman, Ewing, Nique, Hill

http://www.thecoli.com/media/mj-shot-by-dahell.2996/full
Dr Narcisse that lil bitch

[buddha]

It's not 100 percent accurate but it's not 100 percent wrong at the same time. No one ever said Terry Porter had more impact than Jordan in '91. Still, Terry Porter had an absolutely insane year in '91, you guys are not grasping how good he was that season.

17/8/3.5, wouldn't even make the all-star game in today's NBA filled with good PG's

[Spurs5Rings2014]

And Magic got two of his against all time great defensive teams. And Boston was a top defensive team a year before too. The other Guys might have one between them and all looked pretty bad when they did face top defensive teams.

Wrong. And 80's 'defense' is not comparable to 2000's defense.

[stephanieg]

Magic and Bird tend to be ranked together so highly because the NBA was dead in the water before they came around. Kinda like how a lot of people tend to group Wilt/Russell together.

[Pointguard]

Wrong. And 80's 'defense' is not comparable to 2000's defense.
Best defender in the league now are the guys with the whistle. You could tackle guys back then and be playing the next game. And in this case you are talking about centers, you absolutely have no idea what you are talking about. DH and AMare had no offensive skills and were rocking the mid 20's in scoring. Absolutely no way does that go over in the 80's. Your're misled. Most centers are in general soft, weak and unfocused in the 2000's

[TheBigVeto]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/409a839ece0f3807d23861fc6e744568/tumblr_n6zdmspPiE1skh0gdo1_400.gif

You know it's nothing but the honest truth.:rockon: