Clyde Drexler was likely better than you think....even though I found him overrated.

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MkPZWiPitA

^
Video to help make my point. Prepare to hate or love the music...no in between. Not my usual music but a song I enjoy when in the right mood.


Now....


On one hand....hes kinda remembered as a great leaper who dribbled with his head down and scored in transition. Which is....not totally untrue. But he was also one of the best playmaking swingmen ever(He, Lebron, and Jordan are the only non points I can think of to hit 8 assists a game). He was one of the best post scorers at his position ive seen....especially given a mismatch. You can see him doing Dumars dirty in the above video several times. Kenny smith talked about him being an example of what Lebron should do. Just spot the mismatch, post up, 2 dribbles and score. HE could rebound...and despite not coming into the league with much range did make like 800-900 threes. You don't make that many 3s and have me say you cant shoot.

His percentages were not great but he played when a 3 was a broken play or at best someone going outside the offense. Teams didn't usually set out to create threes. You took a 3 when you were too open not to take it....or you take one off the dribble and piss off your coach.

They were hardly driving and kicking to dudes who know the 3 is coming 2 passes earlier.

So I look at 80s/90s shooters a bit different.

By his prime and later years he could hurt you if you left him open.

He really was a lot like Lebron....not as good...but not as much worse as people are about to say he was.

That said....at the time...I thought he was overrated. Didnt care for the Jordan comparisons...but I understand them.

He went to the finals 3 times...had way more to do with the 95 team winning than people seem to want to give him credit for. He abused the Jazz at times. Went hard some of those finals games. He earned that ring.

He just had the kind of game modern(...young) fans don't have much respect for so they kinda dismiss him....but many people who came up watching him like I did will overrate him at times as well.

I'll say this...over or underrated...ive come to believe he would be more highly regarded if he played right now than I used to think. I used to think he would get lost in the swingman shuffle we have now....but im not so sure.

The right team? Right coach? Really let him show his passing...let him run. Let him post up. He was always on deep teams in his prime so he never got to fully let loose as a scorer. I think he could be somewhat Lebronish in his bad team elevating.

He wouldn't take that Cavs team to the finals....but I think he could carry a team better than his old school handles and great uncle hairline will let our younger posters admit.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and a bit more on his Houston days....one of your stat focused types once pointed out to me he led the 95 Rockets in playoff winshares...im gonna just leave that alone for now.

Im not sure he was what the numbers said...but he was still great.

Some believe he was robbed of a quadruple double while a Rocket.

Video of the game with the stats counted as it goes. I leave it up to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywe3R2X7Gl0


And it wasn't his only game of that sort. He had a 26 points, 11 assist, 10 steal, and 9 rebound game when he was on the Blazers.

He could fill a stat sheet...but he so rarely went all out in any area. He just kinda went with the flow.

[iamgine]

Basically the best SG after MJ/Kobe/Wade/West

[T_L_P]

Clyde was a great, great player. His value on the 95 Rockets always goes unmentioned (he even falls into the 'carried by Hakeem' class for some). Definitely in the second tier of SGs (or third tier if you think Jordan is on a tier of his own). :applause:

That said, Porter was a better half-court guard. He's the player that was 'better than you think'.

[GimmeThat]

I think he amazes you.

but you want to be dazzled.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Which SG's would you take over Glide in today's game?

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe isn't Kobe anymore....Wade isn't Wade anymore. Comes down to Harden and Klay. Personally.....I don't want James Harden on my team. So Klay....

In today's league a 3 and D guy like him is hard to pass up.....but I would for Clyde....

If it's toobe the go to guy I mean. Closer as a second option. I'd take Clyde to be my best player by a lot though.

I'd think about taking Klay to play off someone else.

Both have proven they can win in that role. I'd have to see the team I'm working with.

Klay would kill it as LeBrons second. Much better fit than Clyde. But Drexler would be better to lead the Hawks.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Great SG but prime MJ and Kobe were way better. Same with Wade and Jerry. Prime Manu was a better player too GOAT SG passer, way better shooter, arguably better slasher in halfcourt, better ballhandler, much better defender and clutch player. I cant imagine Drexler at any point in his career eviscerating a prime Detroit defense like Manu did in the 05 finals

Glide was very limited in the halfcourt. he was one of the greatest transition/opencourt players, could score 20 in a game just from that. But in the playoffs he got exposed and Terry Porter was often the Blazer running the show on offense

[FatComputerNerd]

I grew up in that era and Clyde was pretty much the consensus next best and most versatile alpha dog 2-guard after MJ for the bulk of his career.

That said, Porter was also the man.

[Kblaze8855]

Manu?

Is not like a stupid opinion or anything but I'm just going to say I don't agree. He never have to prove he could do what Drexler did for years at a time.

He did have the skill set but its hard to extrapolate it like that. Even on those crazy deep blazer teams Clyde was relied on to do a lot more every night.

He averaged like 10 assists a game for half a season. He could give you 30 every night if he had to do it.

Even at his best Manu didn't need to do so much. He played harder....but in short bursts in a somewhat supporting role.

At his best he was playing a Drexler in Houston role. Which I imagine some of his fans would find insulting but the fact is Clyde was hanging quadruple doubles some nights in Houston and dropping 40 in the playoffs in others. It's fair to compare Houston Drexler to prime Manu.

[Dragonyeuw]

Clyde to me is in the same boat as David Robinson- stellar careers that were overshadowed by being badly outplayed by a rival in the playoffs( Hakeem-Robinson in 95 WCF, and MJ-Clyde in 92 finals), and couldn't win a ring until they were on the decline and a second banana. But, Clyde was big in that 95 playoffs run....

[Rocketswin2013]

Comparing him to LeBron is.....Not fair to anyone. It's really hard to even discuss this seriously if you passive-aggressively put him on LeBron's level.

But, maybe he was better than Harden, depending on the how good he was defensively (I know he was good defensively in '95).

Still, Drexler reminds me of Robinson in the fact that he was...beta(:facepalm) for a lack of a better description. I don't even think he cared about winning as the man, I don't even think believed he could, so I doubt he could've done it. Harden on the other hand, seems like he thinks he can. And sort of prefers the pressure. Maybe that makes him better, who knows.


Manu is just a weird fcker in general. Weird game, weird career. The baldspot,
. I don't even think he was aware of anything like that. He just went out and played. Hard to even know.

[Rocketswin2013]

Manu killed a live bat in SA a few years ago. That guy didn't give a shit about being the man

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe isn't Kobe anymore....Wade isn't Wade anymore. Comes down to Harden and Klay. Personally.....I don't want James Harden on my team. So Klay....

In today's league a 3 and D guy like him is hard to pass up.....but I would for Clyde....

If it's toobe the go to guy I mean. Closer as a second option. I'd take Clyde to be my best player by a lot though.

I'd think about taking Klay to play off someone else.

Both have proven they can win in that role. I'd have to see the team I'm working with.

Klay would kill it as LeBrons second. Much better fit than Clyde. But Drexler would be better to lead the Hawks.

Totally agreed.

Depending on the team I would also be inclined to build around Clyde than Klay, who seems like the perfect #2.

[1987_Lakers]

Current James Harden or a peak Clyde Drexler?

I think it's a fair comparison, you can even say Harden was a better scorer in the half-court.

[Kblaze8855]

Comparing him to LeBron is.....Not fair to anyone. It's really hard to even discuss this seriously if you passive-aggressively put him on LeBron's level.


Nothing passive aggressive about it. Im not saying hes Lebron...but ive been saying for 10 years Lebrons game is closer to his than anyone elses.

If not....who?

Who is he more similar to? it isnt Jordan....i isnt Magic. It isnt Nique. Hes like Karl Malone mixed with Penny Hardaway....

Lebron isnt really like anyone. But hes more similar to peak Drexler than anyone else. Besides if they were in the same league people would be having the discussion. Shit I remmber people saying he was about as good as Jordan and a LOT of people...im talking coaches, gms, and players...saying he was the second or third best player in the league. Meaning people ha him ranked ahead of the likes of Hakeem and Barkley.

You think hes gonna have legit basketball minds ranking him ahead of Hakeem and nobody would discuss if hes on the level of Lebron? These are old newsgroup posts from 1992...not all pro Clyde..but you can see the level of player hes discussed with:



Ok, What is the big deal about Clyde Drexler. Sure, he is good. He has
played well all year and led his team to the second best record in the NBA,
but he didn't do it without some excellent support from the rest of his
team. Cliff Robinson, Jerome Kersey, and Terry Porter all did an
outstanding job. I can understand all that jazz about leadership and how he
pulls his team together, but I have yet to see some unbelieveable playing
from Clyde the Glide. No, I don't think he is a poor player or even
mediocre. He is an outstanding basketball player, but please... quotes
like: "Clyde is gonna drill Mike J. in the finals." or "drexler is just in a
class of his own - he is consistant and makes Jordan, Malone, Robinson, etc.
look like crap." Drexler is good, but don't over estimate his abilities.


Dude is annoyed(rightfully ill add) that people are putting Clyde up there with MJ. And some responses:




OK, I'll respond to this. I think Drexler is far and away better than anyone
else on the
Portland Trailblazers team, he brings a lot of class to that organization. I
think that
Clyde and MJ are an excellent matchup; both are quick, explosive off the
dribble, and
love to hit those improbable 15-foot jump shots when they are given to them. As
far
as an edge, I would have to give it (only slightly) to MJ. He is a defensive
nightmare to
keep up with, where Clyde CAN be contained a little more. I think Clyde
deserves any
credit he gets, especially being voted to the Olympic team. He is a superstar,
but let's
just leave it at that. He is the best for being who HE is, let's bag all the
comparisons,
past and present. Besides, we'll all find out tomorrow night, right?



I am not a biased Trailblazer fan but I do think Drexler is the second
best player in the NBA (right behind Jordan of course). I think you're
just another sore looser Jazz fan. I think Clyde will be able to keep
pace with Jordan. How would your 2 superstars do? Karl Malone is
worthless more than 10 feet from the basket and Stockton chokes under
pressure.

Chris



Marlowe, you OBVIOUSLY have NOT been watching the Glyde play all
year ..... Maybe had your eye trained on karls muttering at the
line which put you in a hypnotic trance?
Or is it that clyde makes it all look so EASY?
No need to stand up and defend the glyde ....
Just watch the finals baby .... And FOCUS on clyde!




And then Jordan owned him....but im not saying Clyde was MJ.

Im saying MANY people were having the discussion and a lot of the people saying he wasnt....still put him ahead of some all time greats.

Lebrn in 1990-92 would be another guy in the mix for #1....

Clyde leads his team to 60+ wins while Lebron leads his to 60 in the east and MJ wins his 60-67......Clyde would be considered the least of them....but the discussion would be had.

It wouldnt be a foregone conclusion.

Be about like Lebron vs Harden now. Plenty of people said all year he was outplaying Lebron.

I dont think there would be much question who was better....

I think Clyde would have seasons that stand up to Lebrons and would generate questions on who was best.

Clyde had millions of people putting him ahead of Hakeem. I dont think its impossible some say hes close to Lebron.

[warriorfan]

Drexler was really good. 1992 playoffs he dropped 26/7/7/1.5/1 over 20 games where he beat everyone except Michael Jordan.

I could see Blaze's comparison with Drex and LBJ but Drexler is still on a slightly lower level than LeBron. It's close though.

[1987_Lakers]

I could see Blaze's comparison with Drex and LBJ but Drexler is still on a slightly lower level than LeBron. It's close though.

No, it's not. LeBron is on another level, no one should dispute this.

[Kblaze8855]

No, it's not. LeBron is on another level, no one should dispute this.


But they would.

All time rankings always skew peoples perceptions of what did or would happen with the guys in the same league.

Hakeem destroys Clyde all time.

NBA coaches were quoted saying Clyde was as good as anyone but Jordan...and others had him #2 flat out.

Clyde is no Hakeem....but in the same league same time...these things arent that cut and dry.

The GM survey at one point had them picking Drob over Jordan to add to their teams. And MJ was 26 years old putting up 34/7/6 with 3 steals a game shooting 53% on a team that went on to win 55 games. And the survey was just before the playoffs started. This was absolute prime MJ leading an elite team.

And GMs didnt take him first. They took Drob who is what? 2 years younger?

And guess what? MJ wasnt even SECOND!

Magic was. Magic...at 30...was ahead of Jordan at 26 far as who the actual GMS would take to add to their teams.

It went Drob, Magic, then MJ....Bird Hakeem, Worthy, and Ewing. That order.

Only 5 NBA Gms said they wanted prime Jordan first given the pick.

Im sure in retrospect we would all say...MJ first. At the time? both Don Nelson and Cotton Fitzsimmons said Drob was flat out the best player in the NBA.

All time rankings dont matter to people in the moment.

If this is 1990 to 92....there is an ISH topic on Drexler vs Lebron...and people would be on both sides.

I think thats clear considering people were saying he was right behind MJ and ahead of the likes of Hakeem and Barkley.

Time just makes us see it in an all time light...

[1987_Lakers]

I'm sorry, people who were picking Drexler over Jordan in the early 90's just didn't know basketball, I'm 100% certain Jordan was considered better by real fans.

Reason why D-Rob was getting so much love by GMs was hype, there was talk of him being the next Bill Russell with offense. I can see why GMs picked D-Rob to start a team, he was a freakish young 7 foot center who suppose to be the next Russell/Wilt/Kareem.

Hakeem is also understandable considering Hakeem during the early 90's went through a funk for some reason, I don't know why but he had bad individual seasons in the early 90's. Nobody in their right mind would take a peak Drexler over '94 Hakeem though.

[Kblaze8855]

Thing is...they would be looking back having seen peak Hakeem win and assume it isnt close...when Hakeem was already in his prime being ranked behind Drexler years earlier.

Its pretty obvious that history rerwites people opinions in time.

Actual general managers selected the likes of Worthy, old Bird, Drob, and Ewing over peak Jordan.

They wouldnt if you ask them now. They dont know 1990 better now....than they did living it. They let history paint their opinions in retrospect.

Thats just how it goes.

Im not saying Drexler is better than Hakeem or nearly as good as Jordan.

Im telling you perfectly reasonable people thought so at the time. All time rankings are after its all said and done. Guys end up top 10 all time when guys barely 50 were considered just as good. In the moment...its always closer.

Lebron is top 15 to everyone...top 3-5 to some. Some say #1 or #2.

Harden is what? Top 75?

Doesnt mean a lot of perfectly reasonable people who know the game didnt think he was the best player in the NBA at times this year.

All time ranking means nothing at the time.

[3ball]

out of all the wing players today, only durant, lebron, westbrook, and maybe 1 other guy can match or exceed his athleticism.

but most importantly, drexler's handles would be far better today than they were in his era.

if he played today, he'd dribble like everyone else, but with superior athleticism to almost everyone.

btw, in his era, he ranked about 3rd or 4th in wing athleticism too, just like he would today.
.

[Kblaze8855]

You cant just give someone skills they didnt have and pretend it doesnt alter the rest of their game. How do we just magically assign him handles because of growing up in this era and not take his post game which is barely taught to guards today? More than handles change. His whole game changes.

I bet someone in an AAU camp beats that leg kick out of his jumper. Hed be a totally different guy.

[Rocketswin2013]

I'm sorry, people who were picking Drexler over Jordan in the early 90's just didn't know basketball, I'm 100% certain Jordan was considered better by real fans.

Reason why D-Rob was getting so much love by GMs was hype, there was talk of him being the next Bill Russell with offense. I can see why GMs picked D-Rob to start a team, he was a freakish young 7 foot center who suppose to be the next Russell/Wilt/Kareem.

Hakeem is also understandable considering Hakeem during the early 90's went through a funk for some reason, I don't know why but he had bad individual seasons in the early 90's. Nobody in their right mind would take a peak Drexler over '94 Hakeem though.
Hakeem wasn't that disciplined on defense(see shit ton of fouls) and was seen as a blackhole, and ballhog. Maybe he was too an extent. He even said he didn't trust his teammates until later on. The effects of terrible supporting casts.

[Dragonyeuw]

Gonna agree about the comments on D-Rob. In the early 90s he was HIGHLY regarded around the league, and with good reason. Opinions only softened slightly after the constant soft play in the playoffs and the beatdown by Hakeem, but circa 92 you had a few whispers that Robinson was the best in the league. 25ppg scorer, 13 rpg, 4 blocks with that athleticism?

[3ball]

You cant just give someone skills they didnt have and pretend it doesnt alter the rest of their game. How do we just magically assign him handles because of growing up in this era and not take his post game which is barely taught to guards today? More than handles change. His whole game changes.

I bet someone in an AAU camp beats that leg kick out of his jumper. Hed be a totally different guy.
I never said he'd still have the same post game - obviously he wouldn't - he probably wouldn't have ANY post game.

But his handle would be far better - everyone has the modern handle nowadays, even bigs like thon maker, brandon ingraham, blake griffin - you name it.. Drexler obviously would as well.

Now would his superior handle sufficiently offset his lack of post game or triple-threat game?... **** no.

Infact, he'd be a worse player - his old handle would be sufficient in today's game to get where he needed, just like it was back in the day (http://gifsforum.com/images_new/gif/other/grand/4859abb3d05a00fee786a5fc2c5ec4d1.gif).. But without his post game or triple-threat game, he'd simply be a less-skilled and less effective scorer, especially in the clutch, when the value of mid-range goes way up.
.

[zizozain]

Clyde's game: beautiful and graceful

lebron's game: cluncky and ugly

footwork :roll: :roll:

stop comparing

[Dragonyeuw]

I don't think Clyde not having a post game in todays game would make him worse, just different. But still, its not even worth arguing about what kind of player he'd be today based on skills we can only assume he would have or not have. You can teleport literally any player back or forth and their game would be appropriate to the era in question, taken into account players always being influenced by the ones who came before them.

[La Frescobaldi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MkPZWiPitA

^
Video to help make my point. Prepare to hate or love the music...no in between. Not my usual music but a song I enjoy when in the right mood.


Now....


On one hand....hes kinda remembered as a great leaper who dribbled with his head down and scored in transition. Which is....not totally untrue. But he was also one of the best playmaking swingmen ever(He, Lebron, and Jordan are the only non points I can think of to hit 8 assists a game). He was one of the best post scorers at his position ive seen....especially given a mismatch. You can see him doing Dumars dirty in the above video several times. Kenny smith talked about him being an example of what Lebron should do. Just spot the mismatch, post up, 2 dribbles and score. HE could rebound...and despite not coming into the league with much range did make like 800-900 threes. You don't make that many 3s and have me say you cant shoot.

His percentages were not great but he played when a 3 was a broken play or at best someone going outside the offense. Teams didn't usually set out to create threes. You took a 3 when you were too open not to take it....or you take one off the dribble and piss off your coach.

They were hardly driving and kicking to dudes who know the 3 is coming 2 passes earlier.

So I look at 80s/90s shooters a bit different.

By his prime and later years he could hurt you if you left him open.

He really was a lot like Lebron....not as good...but not as much worse as people are about to say he was.

That said....at the time...I thought he was overrated. Didnt care for the Jordan comparisons...but I understand them.

He went to the finals 3 times...had way more to do with the 95 team winning than people seem to want to give him credit for. He abused the Jazz at times. Went hard some of those finals games. He earned that ring.

He just had the kind of game modern(...young) fans don't have much respect for so they kinda dismiss him....but many people who came up watching him like I did will overrate him at times as well.

I'll say this...over or underrated...ive come to believe he would be more highly regarded if he played right now than I used to think. I used to think he would get lost in the swingman shuffle we have now....but im not so sure.

The right team? Right coach? Really let him show his passing...let him run. Let him post up. He was always on deep teams in his prime so he never got to fully let loose as a scorer. I think he could be somewhat Lebronish in his bad team elevating.

He wouldn't take that Cavs team to the finals....but I think he could carry a team better than his old school handles and great uncle hairline will let our younger posters admit.

Well that was a surprise right there, Blaze.... so I went and looked...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&shoot_hand=&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=ast_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=8&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=&c6stat=&order_by=player&order_by_asc=&offset=200

So talking about non-point guards.... well I only found on there Ray Felton who maybe played enough 2G to qualify?? doubtful but maybe??
And Wilt Chamberlain.

I still don't hardly believe it but it looks like your memory is exactly right. kudos

[3ball]

Clyde's game: beautiful and graceful

lebron's game: cluncky and ugly

footwork :roll: :roll:

stop comparing
seriously

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-26-2015/kqvozc.gif


I don't think Clyde not having a post game in todays game would make him worse, just different.


Clyde didn't need better handles to beat MJ, Rodman, Michael Cooper, Sidney Moncrief, Scottie Pippen or Alvin Robertson off the dribble - and that's a better group of defenders than he'd ever face today... Also, those guys were hand-checking him and being more physical..

That's one of my criticisms of today's game - we've sacrificed post game, triple-threat game, and off-the-catch footwork for superior handles, when most of those extra handles aren't necessary to get from point A to point B.

[Kblaze8855]

I remembered Wilt too but chose not to bring him up.

I guess we could count Magic too since even though people dont remember it Norm Nixon was the Lakers point his first few years. Norm was the point...I think he may have hovered around the league lead in assists on the Clippers.

[La Frescobaldi]

I remembered Wilt too but chose not to bring him up.

I guess we could count Magic too since even though people dont remember it Norm Nixon was the Lakers point his first few years. Norm was the point...I think he may have hovered around the league lead in assists on the Clippers.
But almost the whole "point guard" thing itself appeared with Magic in a way... I mean before that they were just guards.

To me when Nixon & Johnson were together they were both combo guards.... still working within the older, in some ways more versatile "Guard" position.

That's why I mention Felton even though his brain must be oxygen starved to be breathing that rarified air around THOSE names.... he was doing a lot of old school combo work here awhile back.

[PsychoBe]

clyde would be the jordan of this era

[BIZARRO]

Firstly...fantastic original post Blaze. :applause:

Real quick, some things from the thread:

-Yes, Clyde is a classic overrated/underrated player, but I think these days he is underrated.
-Please don't anybody ever put Manu and Clyde in the same sentence.
-It is hard to argue against Wade, due to his Finals heroics in the one year...But that aside (and I'm not discounting it, or taking it out of the equation overall) to me Clyde Drexler was the superior overall basketball player. If I had a draft tomorrow and could take either one, I'm going with the Glyde.
-Order would be MJ/Kobe/West/Glyde/Wade/Ice Man, it's hard to put Wade over the Iceman, but I'll do it for some reason.
-For the person who put Wade over West. I'd take West 1,000 times before Wade. Don't need to post West's resume...Those in the know get what I'm talking about.
-Again, James Worthy was awesome and now incredibly underrated, by as those GM's chose, he was one of the top handful of players in the game at one point. Maybe two hands.
-I remember (being from Chicago) watching the '92 Finals and thinking how ridiculous it was to compare Clyde to Mike. I think it was just to sell papers, as any halfway serious fan knew it was Mike by a mile. And I loved Clyde.
-D-Rob was highly regarded, but again, it just seemed so stupid to me at the time to compare anyone to Mike in the early '90's. D-Rob is another classic overrated/underrated player to me. Nellie (being half crazy in some of his ways) and Cotton (being out West) were way off IMO...
-I remember Red Kerr calling D-Rob maybe the most dominant player in the game in '92 on a broadcast.....Love Red, but was ready to slap my TV set...
-I think it's a good point about rankings in the moment vs. all time perspective.......Cases such as prime T-Mac are examples....As Kobe is Top 10 by most (and I think rightfully so), but the best T-Mac could hang with him...And T-Mac's all time ranking is way low for the player he was at one time (too many reasons to list), but again all time rankings are different...right or wrong.
-For example, you could have argued that KD was the best player in the world last year...And made a compelling argument....But let's say KD's foot never heals, and it is a slow decline.....Then history will put him WAY below Bron, when in reality, at KD's best he was close...Real close.
-All said, I don't think Clyde was close to Mike. Never did.
-But he was awesome. And better than most on here nowadays think.
-Love "the Clyde The Glyde that he was".- Magic, Dream Team HOF induction speech.

[andgar923]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MkPZWiPitA

^
Video to help make my point. Prepare to hate or love the music...no in between. Not my usual music but a song I enjoy when in the right mood.


Now....


On one hand....hes kinda remembered as a great leaper who dribbled with his head down and scored in transition. Which is....not totally untrue. But he was also one of the best playmaking swingmen ever(He, Lebron, and Jordan are the only non points I can think of to hit 8 assists a game). He was one of the best post scorers at his position ive seen....especially given a mismatch. You can see him doing Dumars dirty in the above video several times. Kenny smith talked about him being an example of what Lebron should do. Just spot the mismatch, post up, 2 dribbles and score. HE could rebound...and despite not coming into the league with much range did make like 800-900 threes. You don't make that many 3s and have me say you cant shoot.

His percentages were not great but he played when a 3 was a broken play or at best someone going outside the offense. Teams didn't usually set out to create threes. You took a 3 when you were too open not to take it....or you take one off the dribble and piss off your coach.

They were hardly driving and kicking to dudes who know the 3 is coming 2 passes earlier.

So I look at 80s/90s shooters a bit different.

By his prime and later years he could hurt you if you left him open.

He really was a lot like Lebron....not as good...but not as much worse as people are about to say he was.

That said....at the time...I thought he was overrated. Didnt care for the Jordan comparisons...but I understand them.

He went to the finals 3 times...had way more to do with the 95 team winning than people seem to want to give him credit for. He abused the Jazz at times. Went hard some of those finals games. He earned that ring.

He just had the kind of game modern(...young) fans don't have much respect for so they kinda dismiss him....but many people who came up watching him like I did will overrate him at times as well.

I'll say this...over or underrated...ive come to believe he would be more highly regarded if he played right now than I used to think. I used to think he would get lost in the swingman shuffle we have now....but im not so sure.

The right team? Right coach? Really let him show his passing...let him run. Let him post up. He was always on deep teams in his prime so he never got to fully let loose as a scorer. I think he could be somewhat Lebronish in his bad team elevating.

He wouldn't take that Cavs team to the finals....but I think he could carry a team better than his old school handles and great uncle hairline will let our younger posters admit.

The Bron comparison is spot on. They play similarly... head down and attack. Good passers and use their athleticism to their advantage. Both dangerous once they got steam (although Clyde is quicker and a better leaper) both move in a robotic/stiff manner as well.

[Lebron23]

The Bron comparison is spot on. They play similarly... head down and attack. Good passers and use their athleticism to their advantage. Both dangerous once they got steam (although Clyde is quicker and a better leaper) both move in a robotic/stiff manner as well.


Lebron is a better player than Drexler. Put LeBron with that stacked Blazers team, and they beat the Pistons in 1990, and Bulls in 1992.

[andgar923]

Lebron is a better player than Drexler. Put LeBron with that stacked Blazers team, and they beat the Pistons in 1990, and Bulls in 1992.
Never said Clyde was better, only that they had similar styles.

But Bron vs the Pistons?:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Lebron23]

Never said Clyde was better, only that they had similar styles.

But Bron vs the Pistons?:roll: :roll: :roll:


Bron with a E League roster managed to win 2 games against the Warriors.

[andgar923]

Bron with a E League roster managed to win 2 games against the Warriors.
Lebron shot 30ish% vs one defender and was laughable exhausted for standing around all day.

Imagine if he faced the Pistons?

He'd quit or get a cramp after one quarter.

[Prime_Shaq]

Clyde was smooth af

[Lebron23]

Lebron shot 30ish% vs one defender and was laughable exhausted for standing around all day.

Imagine if he faced the Pistons?

He'd quit or get a cramp after one quarter.

This why I hate nostalgic NBA Fans. a 6'3" Payton owned Jordan in the 1996 NBA Finals. Imagine if Kemp stayed with that team?? The Sonics would have beaten that Bulls team in the finals. That Sonics team were better than the Jazz. They beat them in the conference finals.

Warriors were the no.1 offensive and defensive team for a reason. They were stacked and talented.

[andgar923]

This why I hate nostalgic NBA Fans. a 6'3" Payton owned Jordan in the 1996 NBA Finals. Imagine if Kemp stayed with that team?? The Sonics would have beaten that Bulls team in the finals. That Sonics team were better than the Jazz. They beat them in the conference finals.

Warriors were the no.1 offensive and defensive team for a reason. They were stacked and talented.
Wtf does that have to do with Bron sucking vs one man?


He got defended by one player for most of the time and he couldn't score. You seriously think he's gonna come close to even getting that many possessions vs the Pistons?

Re-read.

He'd get half the touches he got vs the Warriors if he faced the Pistons. Good luck trying to get open when he's being guarded like glue by joe and Dennis. Good luck at finishing if and when he does touch the ball.

[Lebron23]

Wtf does that have to do with Bron sucking vs one man?


He got defended by one player for most of the time and he couldn't score. You seriously think he's gonna come close to even getting that many possessions vs the Pistons?

Re-read.

He'd get half the touches he got vs the Warriors if he faced the Pistons. Good luck trying to get open when he's being guarded like glue by joe and Dennis. Good luck at finishing if and when he does touch the ball.


That's Bull $hit. I know the current LeBron is not as athletic in his previous years. It's very difficult to be an efficient player when most of your teammates cannot create their shots. The Cavaliers struggled to score when LeBron was on the bench.

He literally carried a lottery team in the NBA Finals.

[sekachu]

That's Bull $hit. I know the current LeBron is not as athletic in his previous years. It's very difficult to be an efficient player when most of your teammates cannot create their shots. The Cavaliers struggled to score when LeBron was on the bench.

He literally carried a lottery team in the NBA Finals.




That just showed how bad is the east now. Do you really think it would happen in 90s?

[andgar923]

That's Bull $hit. I know the current LeBron is not as athletic in his previous years. It's very difficult to be an efficient player when most of your teammates cannot create their shots. The Cavaliers struggled to score when LeBron was on the bench.

He literally carried a lottery team in the NBA Finals.

WTf? this has nothing to do with athleticism and more to do with his limited offensive game, low scoring IQ, and soft mentality.

And what does his teammates not being able to create have to do with him struggling vs one on one defense?

He was guarded by ONE player street ball style, everybody clear out with wide open lanes. What do his teammates have to do with anything?

Lebron vs the Pistons (or any team from the 80s/90s) would get his possessions cut in half. Defenders were allowed to grab and hold, and Bron has absolutely NO off the ball game, it's actually extremely pathetic how awful he is without the ball. He wouldn't be able to get open enough to control the ball like he currently does.

Bron is also mentally weak. For all his size and strength he gets bothered by the slightest reach-ins, he gets thrown off balance and cries over a slight hand check, he can't finish around the rim vs players smaller than him. Yet are we supposed to believe he'd come close to beating the Bad Boys?

Not happening

Sorry for not buying into his misleading statlines.

[houston]

good thread

[GimmeThat]

But they would.

All time rankings always skew peoples perceptions of what did or would happen with the guys in the same league.

Hakeem destroys Clyde all time.

NBA coaches were quoted saying Clyde was as good as anyone but Jordan...and others had him #2 flat out.

Clyde is no Hakeem....but in the same league same time...these things arent that cut and dry.

The GM survey at one point had them picking Drob over Jordan to add to their teams. And MJ was 26 years old putting up 34/7/6 with 3 steals a game shooting 53% on a team that went on to win 55 games. And the survey was just before the playoffs started. This was absolute prime MJ leading an elite team.

And GMs didnt take him first. They took Drob who is what? 2 years younger?

And guess what? MJ wasnt even SECOND!

Magic was. Magic...at 30...was ahead of Jordan at 26 far as who the actual GMS would take to add to their teams.

It went Drob, Magic, then MJ....Bird Hakeem, Worthy, and Ewing. That order.

Only 5 NBA Gms said they wanted prime Jordan first given the pick.

Im sure in retrospect we would all say...MJ first. At the time? both Don Nelson and Cotton Fitzsimmons said Drob was flat out the best player in the NBA.

All time rankings dont matter to people in the moment.

If this is 1990 to 92....there is an ISH topic on Drexler vs Lebron...and people would be on both sides.

I think thats clear considering people were saying he was right behind MJ and ahead of the likes of Hakeem and Barkley.

Time just makes us see it in an all time light...


I think it would be a good side note to talk about maybe even the evolution of GMs.

without also mentioning that, prior to the Jordan's Bulls, the league would most likely look at Celtics with Birds, and the Lakers with Magic. where it was more important to compete and be a contender year in and year out, as with perhaps slight similarity to the NFL, too many things can happen and go wrong for not just your team to win, but also prevent the other team.

insert 3peats. which if I am not wrong, the last before Jordan was Russell, then came 6 rings in 8 years with not just once, but two 3peats.

even today, players who can be a great rebounder exists everywhere. but how many would you TAKE, not for the depth of your bench, but as a starter on your team.

I think here, would also be a good time to talk about Dwayne Wade and Udonis Haslem, who I'm certain sooner or later we will talk about HIS ranking on the all time list. But even though some may argue he had a past the prime Shaq during his stint of winning the FMVP. But this is the type of player that ALLOWS you to do that. to stretch the truth, we don't even know if GM in the 2000's would know how to do so without seeing Jordan done it first.

but back on topic.

to speak strictly on the evolution of GM, and without making fun of Isiah Thomas too much. Mitch Kupchak actually has an MBA from UCLA.


if you made a poll today, I'm certain many would take Anthony Davis over many many players.

the last player to win a championship as the scoring leader of the league prior to Jordan in the same year? Lew Alcindor

who I am not interested in discussing about how 'overrated he is, and constantly being carried by Magic'

[Dro]

This why I hate nostalgic NBA Fans. a 6'3" Payton owned Jordan in the 1996 NBA Finals. Imagine if Kemp stayed with that team?? The Sonics would have beaten that Bulls team in the finals. That Sonics team were better than the Jazz. They beat them in the conference finals.

Warriors were the no.1 offensive and defensive team for a reason. They were stacked and talented.
:rolleyes:

[diamenz]

This why I hate nostalgic NBA Fans. a 6'3" Payton owned Jordan in the 1996 NBA Finals. Imagine if Kemp stayed with that team?? The Sonics would have beaten that Bulls team in the finals. That Sonics team were better than the Jazz. They beat them in the conference finals.

Warriors were the no.1 offensive and defensive team for a reason. They were stacked and talented.

is that what you heard, boy?

[Clifton]

Teams didn't usually set out to create threes. You took a 3 when you were too open not to take it....or you take one off the dribble and piss off your coach.


They were hardly driving and kicking to dudes who know the 3 is coming 2 passes earlier.

True of stars. But in the 95 Finals, which I watched last week, the 4 all stars were always posting up and everyone else was looking for the 3. Probably those Rockets were the beginning of a pattern that would rule the NBA through the 3peat Lakers and the prime of Duncan / Manu / Parker. Now there is more movement and even more 3s. After the early 90s I don't think the 3 was that much of an oddity.

Clyde's shooting was fugly though. When he takes a J it always seems at the wrong time, in the wrong place, and not with much efficiency. If he played in the 00s he could have been one of those guys with really awful shot selection who does his team a disservice.


I'll say this...over or underrated...ive come to believe he would be more highly regarded if he played right now than I used to think. I used to think he would get lost in the swingman shuffle we have now....but im not so sure.
People would be having arguments of him vs. any perimeter player currently playing IMO. Certainly any swingman. If his prime had coincided with Wade's there would have been arguments. Likely would have hinged on, as you say, the coach, the teammates, the team success.

Kind of like a mix between Wade and Wall. I think he would be perfect in the era that is just now ending with the advent of Warrior/Hawks/Spurs-ball. He would have fit right in with the super-teams of 2008-2012.

[ArbitraryWater]

Clyde put up LeBron numbers for quite a few years there.. while having his team in contention for the finals.

BTW: Video turned out to be alot more entertaining that I thought it would be.. those Dunks at the start, damn.

[GimmeThat]

sooner or later, coaches will start being rated by their tendencies and positions.

which may one day, once again, shatter any modern all time ranking in which we have placed now today.

[3ball]

Didn't Clyde average 25/8/5 in the 1992 Finals against the greatest perimeter defense of all time (MJ and Scottie)?

What more do we need to know

If he played today, he'd be a top 3-4 player, simply because there wouldn't be any big men he'd take a backseat to (i.e. Shaq, Drob, Hakeem, Malone, Barkley).. AD in today's game.. That's it though.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Totally agreed.

Depending on the team I would also be inclined to build around Clyde than Klay, who seems like the perfect #2.

AND to go along w/ this, Drexler also put up nice stat-lines. Very LeBron-esque as Kblaze mentioned...from a numbers aspect anyway.

42/12/9 vs Lakers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrDe7j9Cpwg) - check him out on the break; nearly unstoppable to contain.

[SHAQisGOAT]

5th best SG ever above Gervin, imo... One of the greatest peaks at the 2guard position too.

If I had to call it, I'd say he's underrated more than anything else.

[Chadwin]

would be the best SG in the game today

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

would be the best SG in the game today
True.......not saying much doe

[Chadwin]

True.......not saying much doe

Is there anything Klay and Harden have that's superior other than three point shooting?

maybe Klay for man defense?

[SHAQisGOAT]

would be the best SG in the game today

Wouldn't say by leaps and bounds... but clearly.

[dreamwarrior]

I never noticed how ugly Clyde's half court game was, very comparable to Lebrons.

[3ball]

.
The softest defense possible is when all 4 help defenders are on the far weakside, and therefore furthest from helping on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-22-2015/WAhpK1.gif



Obviously, the aforementioned defense would be tougher if the 4 help defenders were on the strongside instead, and therefore closest to helping on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2015/Tg5H-T.gif


In the first play shown above, WEAKSIDE SPACING drew all help defenders to the weakside, leaving the strongside with literally zero help defenders.. This is the case in today's game, where every team's 3-point shooting and spacing strategy uses weakside spacing to reduce the number of strongside defenders.

In the 2nd GIF, there is NO weakside spacing, so all 4 help defenders remained on strongside.. This was the case in the 80's when teams didn't shoot 3-pointers or have spacing.

[Optimus Prime]

All I know is that he is by far the worst announcer in the league. Heinsohn might be a bigger homer, but I think Tommy is in on the joke at this point. Drexler is just awful.

:facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

All I know is that he is by far the worst announcer in the league. Heinsohn might be a bigger homer, but I think Tommy is in on the joke at this point. Drexler is just awful.

:facepalm

Ditto.

Listening to Clyde puts me to sleep nightquil status ... Color commentators are supposed to be jovial and create insightful basketball discussion. Guy does his best, but damn he's about as entertaining as a brick.

[Kobe_6/8]

But they would.

All time rankings always skew peoples perceptions of what did or would happen with the guys in the same league.

Hakeem destroys Clyde all time.

NBA coaches were quoted saying Clyde was as good as anyone but Jordan...and others had him #2 flat out.

Clyde is no Hakeem....but in the same league same time...these things arent that cut and dry.

The GM survey at one point had them picking Drob over Jordan to add to their teams. And MJ was 26 years old putting up 34/7/6 with 3 steals a game shooting 53% on a team that went on to win 55 games. And the survey was just before the playoffs started. This was absolute prime MJ leading an elite team.

And GMs didnt take him first. They took Drob who is what? 2 years younger?

And guess what? MJ wasnt even SECOND!

Magic was. Magic...at 30...was ahead of Jordan at 26 far as who the actual GMS would take to add to their teams.

It went Drob, Magic, then MJ....Bird Hakeem, Worthy, and Ewing. That order.

Only 5 NBA Gms said they wanted prime Jordan first given the pick.

Im sure in retrospect we would all say...MJ first. At the time? both Don Nelson and Cotton Fitzsimmons said Drob was flat out the best player in the NBA.

All time rankings dont matter to people in the moment.

If this is 1990 to 92....there is an ISH topic on Drexler vs Lebron...and people would be on both sides.

I think thats clear considering people were saying he was right behind MJ and ahead of the likes of Hakeem and Barkley.

Time just makes us see it in an all time light...

There's a lot of politics in sports, even more so 25 years ago. Nobody should care if only 5 GM's would pick prime Jordan, I'm sure there was a lot of 'buddy-buddy' voting going on.

Any un-biased fan will watch the games, tapes, look at stats, etc. and see Jordan >>>>>>> Clyde.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Is there anything Klay and Harden have that's superior other than three point shooting?

maybe Klay for man defense?
Klay could defend PGs better for sure. Hardens a bit better in pickandrolls
thats bout it tho

[Kblaze8855]

Like him or not I have to acknowledge that Harden is one of the best pick and roll players in the NBA. He's more than a bit better than Drexler there. But I still don't want him on my team.

[Jacks3]

yeah, i wouldn't want the best SG in the league by far on my team either.

[Carbine]

Why wouldn't you want the best SG on your team?

Is Kblaze blinded by hate?

[GimmeThat]

.
The softest defense possible is when all 4 help defenders are on the far weakside, and therefore furthest from helping on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-22-2015/WAhpK1.gif



Obviously, the aforementioned defense would be tougher if the 4 help defenders were on the strongside instead, and therefore closest to helping on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2015/Tg5H-T.gif


In the first play shown above, WEAKSIDE SPACING drew all help defenders to the weakside, leaving the strongside with literally zero help defenders.. This is the case in today's game, where every team's 3-point shooting and spacing strategy uses weakside spacing to reduce the number of strongside defenders.

In the 2nd GIF, there is NO weakside spacing, so all 4 help defenders remained on strongside.. This was the case in the 80's when teams didn't shoot 3-pointers or have spacing.


and Matt Bonner is the pre-evolved version of Kawhi Leonard

[Kblaze8855]

His antics would annoy me much more than the difference between him and Jimmy Butler would improve the Bulls. If I had the opportunity to build a team from scratch and harden were handed to me I wouldn't refuse obviously. But if I already had Jimmy Butler or Klay Thompson and swapping them for Harden would cost me anything at all I would say no and focus my efforts elsewhere.

My distaste for his style doesn't go to the point where I would make my team forego a player of his caliber just to not have him. But I wouldn't take him if I had a half reasonable alternative and could apply whatever savings there might be to another area of the team.

If I have to trade Jimmy Butler and a late first or two second round picks for James Harden you can go **** yourself. Id bring an even swap to the coach and see what he thought about it. I wouldn't even entertain the idea of the exchange if I have to add anything in addition to it.

I wouldn't trade Jimmy Butler and my best pair of shoes for James Harden.

Straight up swap or I'm hanging up the phone. In fact I would buy an old school rotary phone before the call just so I could hang it up more emphatically if you try to get anything extra.

I don't need that guy if there's a viable alternative.

[Carbine]

Thanks for letting all of ISH know you would make a terrible GM.

[Kblaze8855]

Every single person here with no exceptions who thinks they know how they or anyone else would do as a GM is fooling themselves.

It's one guy backed by two dozen people of tremendous experience all bent around the will of an owner.

You put two hundred years of basketball experience on every management staff and half the teams in the league are still going to be awful for a long time.

Guys play coach and evaluate the game for 40 years and draft a European nobody ever heard of over a Hall of Famer.

There is no way to know what any one would do in that position until they have it.

Gang of armchair GM's talking about what they would do in situations when they have no idea why the decisions were made. Or who mandated them.... or what team doctors thought....what the coach asks for... or what your owner's daughter thinks about a guys past... or what the GMs old buddy who is the assistant GM of another team told him about a player over dinner.

We sit online and talk shit and not one of us really knows what is going on.

We are all equally clueless playing hypothetical games of no consequence with no information beyond what we see on TV.

What any of us thinks they would do now wouldn't mean shit when the opportunity presented itself.

[Carbine]

That's a whole lot of babbling going on.

Drafting is hard, but you just said you wouldn't want Harden over Klay or Butler if it meant giving up two second round picks.

We know what these guys are they are known commodities. Harden is a top 5 player in the league in his prime.

[Kblaze8855]

And Stephon Marbury was near universally considered better than Chauncey Billups. Doesn't mean if you swap him with Billups the 04 pistons would be a better team.

It isn't now never was and never will be as simple as the best individual makes the team play the best basketball regardless of the build of that team coaching and culture.

Teams have lost Hall of Famers for nothing and improved.

Everyone has his place. And that place isn't necessarily determined by talent.

The Warriors just won the NBA championship after a 67 win team with Klay Thompson. Really what is Harden going to realistically do to improve this season? They gonna win 70 and sweep the playoffs? Of course not.

They have very little room to improve but it's entirely possible Harden makes them a worse defensive team while also taking the ball out of Steph Curry's hands more than I'd like.

They have immense chemistry and just finished one of the best seasons in the sports history. Why would I disrupt that by trading for Harden and giving up some extra?

I'm sure someone in their front office was saying Kevin love is a 26 and 15 top 5 player when they could have traded Klay for him.

Seems it all worked out.

You decide the kind of team you want to build and you get a coach and players to try to bring your vision to life within the confines of what your owner will allow.

My vision would not include James Harden when I can instead have someone score a little less but play tremendous defense with the added caveat of not annoying the shit out of me.

If your vision is combining the most possible talent go right ahead with it. It might work it might not. All 30 teams have a sound plan in concept.

It's the execution that's a bitch.

[GimmeThat]

And Stephon Marbury was near universally considered better than Chauncey Billups. Doesn't mean if you swap him with Billups the 04 pistons would be a better team.


well, I don't think it would be far fetched to say that Hubie Brown taught Jason Williams how to shoot the 3 ball.

which really helped him with his stint with the championship run with the Heat

if we were to go by Marbury's ability that may had been a difference between him and Billups, it would probably be his ability to go left. without recalling those Pistons days, but in my opinion, the ability to go left, allows multiple pick and rolls. which separates from a simple screen.

[BIZARRO]

His antics would annoy me much more than the difference between him and Jimmy Butler would improve the Bulls. If I had the opportunity to build a team from scratch and harden were handed to me I wouldn't refuse obviously. But if I already had Jimmy Butler or Klay Thompson and swapping them for Harden would cost me anything at all I would say no and focus my efforts elsewhere.

My distaste for his style doesn't go to the point where I would make my team forego a player of his caliber just to not have him. But I wouldn't take him if I had a half reasonable alternative and could apply whatever savings there might be to another area of the team.

If I have to trade Jimmy Butler and a late first or two second round picks for James Harden you can go **** yourself. Id bring an even swap to the coach and see what he thought about it. I wouldn't even entertain the idea of the exchange if I have to add anything in addition to it.

I wouldn't trade Jimmy Butler and my best pair of shoes for James Harden.

Straight up swap or I'm hanging up the phone. In fact I would buy an old school rotary phone before the call just so I could hang it up more emphatically if you try to get anything extra.

I don't need that guy if there's a viable alternative.


Totally agree. The game is played on both ends....as some people on here choose to forget....and when you add the intangibles of Butler.....Wouldn't trade him for Harden in a million years.