Is a dominant big man even necessary anymore? ?

[NZStreetBaller]

Seems like this game is getting more and more small ball. I suppose that 3 second violation call on both ends and the big mans poor free throw shooting really hurts hum.

[9erempiree]

It depends if another dominant big man comes into the league. If so, then you will see them again.

[Mr. Jabbar]

It depends if another dominant big man comes into the league. If so, then you will see them again.

probably the best answer ever given for this topic.


when dwight is arguably the best big man, you know the big man squad is lacking personnel

[NZStreetBaller]

probably the best answer ever given for this topic.


when dwight is arguably the best big man, you know the big man squad is lacking personnel

Even dwight isnt much of a factor. Has the game just evolved into the hands of guards or what??

[Mr. Jabbar]

Even dwight isnt much of a factor. Has the game just evolved into the hands of guards or what??

i think when guards realized the best big was dwight howard they decided to take over

[UK2K]

As I said in another thread, the only team to win a title without a 18ppg 4 or 5 other than this year's GS team were teams with Lebron on them.

Spurs. Mavs. Celtics. Lakers. All had a 4 or 5 as their first or second leading scorer.

That's gone back a decade.

The only thing that's changed is there aren't enough good big men anymore.

[jzek]

If you have a dominant big man and no other team has one (weak era for big men in the NBA), who's going to stop your dominant big man?

When someone like Roy Hibbert is a 2x All Star, having a dominant big man is the closest thing to guaranteed titles.

[CavaliersFTW]

This question gets asked every time there is a drought in super star big men.

It's not the game that's stifling big men, it's the infrequency of talent, you can never hide the talent when it comes along. They are rare. Plain and simple. The game has 10 foot baskets, it will ALWAYS favor big players. Most big players lose agility, quickness and coordination the bigger they get though. Infrequently, some hardworking insanely competitive player/players come along that seem to defy the typical physical limitations of being big, and become super skilled and dominating. But it is rare.

[masonanddixon]

No and thats why the NBA is terrible now.

[jongib369]

Imagine Wilt, Shaq, or Kareem on the Warriors and the spacing problems that would cause with the increased 3pt shooting frequency/accuracy.

So yes, necessary but rare. Hell I predict we'll see another Wilt or Shaq again.... There was what, 20 years between Shaq's rookie year and Wilt's retirement? And just a few between Kareem and Shaq...We'll see, maybe between now and 2030.

*fingers crossed that Shaq's son can play like his dad, AND have "guard" skills

[dubeta]

If you're middle name is 'Bean' then yea it is, no 2nd round appearances without it.

[And1AllDay]

I think there are two issues to address.


1) The talent pool for skilled big men is shallow
2) Teams are taking way more 3-pointers and utilizing the 3-point shot. And they're getting better at it, too.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Depends on if you have the goat shooter or not..

[T_L_P]

probably the best answer ever given for this topic.


when dwight is arguably the best big man, you know the big man squad is lacking personnel

Dwight isn't close to being 'arguably the best big man'.

Davis and Blake are much better.

[Collie]

Imagine taking Hakeem in his late 20's and placing him in today's era...

Even old Duncan is still extremely effective despite his mobility. I have no doubt that greats like Drob, Hakeem, Shaq, KAJ and Wilt would be effective today.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Nope
weakest era since the 50s

[TheCorporation]

Dwight isn't close to being 'arguably the best big man'.

Davis and Blake are much better.

Now, yes. But years ago D12 was the #1 big man in the league. He was taking down DPOY awards and rebounding titles all day.

In this modern basketball being able to spread the floor, shoot the long ball, defend outside of the paint, and hit free throws down the stretch (hack a Shaq, Howard, Jordan, etc). is very important.

[Nastradamus]

Lets not forget there's a 24 year old averaging 24 and 13 with 1.5 steals and 1.7 blocks and a 25 PER

[RightTwoCensor]

Lets not forget there's a 24 year old averaging 24 and 13 with 1.5 steals and 1.7 blocks and a 25 PER
And he hasn't escaped the lottery once in his career.

[OnFire]

People have weird memories anyway. Are we remembering back like there was some avalanche of complete dominant Centers ever in the league at once?

In the last 25 years there have been what?

Hakeem
Shaq
Ewing
Mourning
Robinson

The rest of the teams were just bodies to try to contain those guys.

Or are people trying to sell that like, Rony Seikly or someone is so much more dominant than Marc Gasol or even like a Mozgov?

Like before Miami had Shaq and Zo they had Rony Seikly. He was like 6'10 240lbs and averaged 14pts and 10reb per game. He was a good college player and a top 10 pick. He was considered a good player in the NBA.

[Kvnzhangyay]

No. Big men are for defense purposes now; they are no longer the focal point of offenses

[Kobe_6/8]

No. Big men are for defense purposes now; they are no longer the focal point of offenses

This. The former rules allowed for more physical play & paint-camping. This was an ideal environment for imposing beasts like Shaq/Hakeem. The threat of a Shaq elbow created fear and space for shooters.

http://media.thehoopdoctors.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/shaq-elbow-to-bynum-rt-float.jpg

Look at his face ^ he definitely knows how to do this without the ref seeing.

[RightTwoCensor]

This. The former rules allowed for more physical play & paint-camping. This was an ideal environment for imposing beasts like Shaq/Hakeem. The threat of a Shaq elbow created fear and space for shooters.

http://media.thehoopdoctors.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/shaq-elbow-to-bynum-rt-float.jpg

Look at his face ^ he definitely knows how to do this without the ref seeing.
Are you retarded?

[Kobe_6/8]

Are you retarded?


Sounds like you're a lightweight.


I probably took it at a bad time.I woke up really early in the morning and smoked it then while playing 2K.

I was laughing hard at My Wife and Kids, more than usual.

I'm gonna save the rest of this for another day to see if it's me or the weed.

Wow you're a badass, you take weed? It's not the weed, it's you.

[RightTwoCensor]

Wow you're a badass, you take weed? It's not the weed, it's you.
What?

[Andrei89]

Of course, imagine in today's league how good a prime Shaq, Olajuwon, Admiral would be.

These guys would absolutely wreck anybody.

[bluechox2]

It's more like tall kids these know they will get paid regardless due to need of a guy to grab a rebound and don't give a flying fuc k at developing

[nzahir]

The question is do you try and shoot a 50% shot for 2 points or a 40% shot for 3 points. Teams are focusing more on analytics and those favor the play of guards and going small.

[Showtime80']

Here comes the analytics train to try and save face for the current NBA's current one dimensional offenses. The present game NEEDS analytics to manufacture points because they have no truly dominant inside players to anchor offenses were everything can flow through them. Check the ENTIRE Eastern conference and see how many inept offenses are on display. If this "3 is better than 2" BS were actually true then teams all over the league would have no problem cracking 110+ points a game and we all know that's not the case! An inside or mid range 2 will always be more efficient than a 3, the problem is the present NBA has lost the type of players who can generate quick hitting offense from the inside to mid range and instead you have replace them with shoot first PG's who take between 20 to 22 seconds looking for either a layup or a 3 pointer! That is not good basketball to watch and is really not that efficient.

A TRUE dominant center or big in general gives a lot more structure to an offense, helps generate the plays quicker, gets more attention from the defense thus opening everything up for everybody else and can get the opposing team in foul problems faster than any other position while getting higher percentage shots for himself.

Steph Curry is a nice little player but he would NOT even be top 10 in any other era besides this one were ALL the rules have been created to favor his type of play and even with those rule changes you put prime Hakeem, Kareem, Shaq, DRob and Moses in today's pathetic landscape and they AUTOMATICALLY become the 5 best and most important offensive pieces in the game! A dominant center transcends rule changes or schemes, they alter them!


The Curry, Harden, Westbrook and Lebron era is here not because of rule changes but because of the side effect of the lack of dominant inside play which in my opinion is turning the game into an NBA Jam video game instead of actual basketball!

[SCdac]

idk about dominant big men, but the Warriors had a formidable front court. Former #1 pick in Bogut and a former 20/10 guy in David Lee that they barely even played. Add some swingmen who could D up and they were good... But put Anthony Davis on the current Spurs and they'd probably tear up the league

[Nastradamus]

People have weird memories anyway. Are we remembering back like there was some avalanche of complete dominant Centers ever in the league at once?

In the last 25 years there have been what?

Hakeem
Shaq
Ewing
Mourning
Robinson

The rest of the teams were just bodies to try to contain those guys.

Or are people trying to sell that like, Rony Seikly or someone is so much more dominant than Marc Gasol or even like a Mozgov?

Like before Miami had Shaq and Zo they had Rony Seikly. He was like 6'10 240lbs and averaged 14pts and 10reb per game. He was a good college player and a top 10 pick. He was considered a good player in the NBA.

THere's usually 2-4 strong post Cs in the league. There is only really 1 right now, maybe 2 with Howard(though a different style). The league got screwed a bit by Yao,Bynum and Oden all having their careers ruined. Maybe Embiid now too.

Fwiw, Gasol would probably put up Ewing numbers in the 90s.

Drummond,Valanciunas,Towns and Okafor have a chance to change this conversation.

[Nastradamus]

Here comes the analytics train to try and save face for the current NBA's current one dimensional offenses. The present game NEEDS analytics to manufacture points because they have no truly dominant inside players to anchor offenses were everything can flow through them. Check the ENTIRE Eastern conference and see how many inept offenses are on display. If this "3 is better than 2" BS were actually true then teams all over the league would have no problem cracking 110+ points a game and we all know that's not the case! An inside or mid range 2 will always be more efficient than a 3, the problem is the present NBA has lost the type of players who can generate quick hitting offense from the inside to mid range and instead you have replace them with shoot first PG's who take between 20 to 22 seconds looking for either a layup or a 3 pointer! That is not good basketball to watch and is really not that efficient.

A TRUE dominant center or big in general gives a lot more structure to an offense, helps generate the plays quicker, gets more attention from the defense thus opening everything up for everybody else and can get the opposing team in foul problems faster than any other position while getting higher percentage shots for himself.

Steph Curry is a nice little player but he would NOT even be top 10 in any other era besides this one were ALL the rules have been created to favor his type of play and even with those rule changes you put prime Hakeem, Kareem, Shaq, DRob and Moses in today's pathetic landscape and they AUTOMATICALLY become the 5 best and most important offensive pieces in the game! A dominant center transcends rule changes or schemes, they alter them!


The Curry, Harden, Westbrook and Lebron era is here not because of rule changes but because of the side effect of the lack of dominant inside play which in my opinion is turning the game into an NBA Jam video game instead of actual basketball!

Lol, Curry would own the 80s, where guards' FG%s were already inflated. All that open court to work with........

[j3lademaster]

In addition to physical play and paint camping, perimeter players are just more athletic nowadays, making bigs a liability in transition.

A big also requires a team who is good at running halfcourt sets to accomodate them offensively.

Lastly, bigs who have natural offensive talent(smooth footwork, soft hands) want to be Kevin Durant/ lebron/ Jordan not wilt, and tend to gravitate to the perimeter.

So all in all dominant bigs will be rare. First you need the physical gifts to bang with 300 lbers on a regular basis, then your knees have to withstand you running up and down the court trying to kill transition offense in a league of Westbrook, Conley, Durants, lebrons, and DRoses; and if you fit all of that criteria you have to be gifted with soft hands and footwork. No matter how much you try to teach Javale McGee footwork and coordination you will fail. Then you have to convince a bigheaded 16 year old who grew up with an army of yesmen that he needs to play a certain way even though he's putting up 33/20 doing what he wants. Good luck with these stars aligning.

[CavaliersFTW]

In addition to physical play and paint camping, perimeter players are just more athletic nowadays, making bigs a liability in transition.

A big also requires a team who is good at running halfcourt sets to accomodate them offensively.

Lastly, bigs who have natural offensive talent(smooth footwork, soft hands) want to be Kevin Durant/ lebron/ Jordan not wilt, and tend to gravitate to the perimeter.

So all in all dominant bigs will be rare. First you need the physical gifts to bang with 300 lbers on a regular basis, then your knees have to withstand you running up and down the court trying to kill transition offense in a league of Westbrook, Conley, Durants, lebrons, and DRoses; and if you fit all of that criteria you have to be gifted with soft hands and footwork. No matter how much you try to teach Javale McGee footwork and coordination you will fail. Then you have to convince a bigheaded 16 year old who grew up with an army of yesmen that he needs to play a certain way even though he's putting up 33/20 doing what he wants. Good luck with these stars aligning.
Historically dominating bigs are the most crucial players in transition... They're the ones who start the break straight off a rebound. And when they end up on the whip end of the break absolutely no one cant stop them.

Wtf is this? :oldlol:

[jayfan]

No, but who wouldn't want one? Put everyone else behind the eight ball.

Everything is cyclical.






.

[j3lademaster]

Historically dominating bigs are the most crucial players in transition... They're the ones who start the break straight off a rebound. And when they end up on the whip end of the break absolutely no one cant stop them.

Wtf is this? :oldlol:the big(spoken in generality) is a liability in transition. You get a rare Cwebb or Shaq who can coast to coast like that- it's rare. Then you pray their knees hold up with that much friction under those heavy frames. That's literally all I said. Nowhere did I state there's never been a great center or pf whose a transition finisher, but in a league that's faster than ever in transition offense, and more 3's taken in transition than ever, the league will naturally gravitate towards small ball, so it will exacerbate the fact that we have a scarcity in big man talent in the first place.

[CavaliersFTW]

the big(spoken in generality) is a liability in transition. You get a rare Cwebb or Shaq who can coast to coast like that- it's rare. Then you pray their knees hold up with that much friction under those heavy frames. That's literally all I said. Nowhere did I state there's never been a great center or pf whose a transition finisher, but in a league that's faster than ever in transition offense, and more 3's taken in transition than ever, the league will naturally gravitate towards small ball, so it will exacerbate the fact that we have a scarcity in big man talent in the first place.
Fast breaks start with a rebound. Dominating centers get rebounds better than anyone.

And the most unstoppable fast break finishes end with a big. They can absorb the most contact while still finishing strong, and dominating ones are usually gifted with speed.

A dominating big > a dominating guard or forward in transition.

This thread is not about big men it is about dominating big men. There is no liability in transition here, only advantages.

And fast breaks aren't just about bigs who can put the ball on the floor. In fact, the fastest fast breaks don't even involve putting the ball on the floor nor does a big have to be able to do that in order to be more crucial in transition than any of the smaller guys on the floor.

When a dominating big man talent comes along no small player is better at:

Starting fast breaks
https://youtu.be/G94iJr8ZbzM?t=13m28s

OR finishing them
https://youtu.be/G94iJr8ZbzM?t=40m7s

The smaller players can handle better if the ball needs to be put on the floor. But they don't start, or finish better.

[Showtime80']

Transition offenses are faster than ever?!? Really I must have missed this year's NBA when EVERY team averaged 110+ points and ran fast quick hitting offenses that look to run on every play with the PG looking to get their teammates LAYUPS on the break instead of 3's!!! Oh right, that hasn't happened in about 20+ years!

Today's offenses are about as stagnant, slow developing and one dimensional as I've ever seen! No true commitment to a running game, inside play or mid range shots! You can thank the death of dominant post games and the rise of the shoot first bastard children of Steve Francis and Stephon Marbury shoot first PG's for this development. Very entertaining watching half court offenses with the PG basically dribbling the air out of the ball for 12 to 15 seconds looking for a 3?!? Go watch the 80's Lakers or Celtics to see what a free flowing, fast hitting and structurally sound offenses looked like, the word symphony comes to mind watching those teams, it never crosses my mind when I watch any team in today's NBA!

And be honest with yourselves, go back and see the top 10 MVP voting for 1988 or 1987 and tell me you would take Steph Curry over ANY of those players. Would've love to see Curry's brittle ankles go up against teams that could hand-check, put him on floor if he drove to the paint and make him and his team pay for taking so many 3's by running it back down their throats or pounding it down to a dominant big to wreck their small frontline. The Warriors and Curry are successful because EVERY other team plays as soft and disorganized as they do. That wasn't the case 25 to 30 years ago

[FireDavidKahn]

There is no set way to win. The Warriors were just constructed in a way where they had two incredible offensive weapons on the wing and a bunch of great defensive role players surrounding them.

[BoutPractice]

Haven't posted in a while, but this is an interesting topic.

I'll just say that I think the impact of the hand check rule on post players' scoring averages is overrated.

The rule change happened in 2004-2005.

Yet (and this is far from an exhaustive list, just examples to come to mind):

In 2005 Shaq averaged 23 ppg, Duncan 20 ppg. Duncan led his team to the title as the primary scoring option and averaged 23 ppg in the playoffs.

In 2007 Yao averaged 25 ppg.

In 2009 Big Al averaged 23 ppg.

In 2011 Dwight averaged 23 ppg, Brook Lopez 20 ppg.

In 2015 Cousins averaged 24 ppg, Nick Vucevic 19 ppg, Enes Kanter (for the Thunder) 19 ppg, Marc Gasol 17 ppg (I'm giving more examples for that season since it's fresher in my head)

The point is: do you think those players would have averaged much more under different rules?

Pau has basically been averaging the same ppg since 2001. Duncan has roughly had the same per 36 scoring numbers since 1997.

The problem isn't that post players can't be the focal point of the offense in today's era. It's that the NBA is lacking in real two way big men - when we say that offensive big men don't win anymore, it's only because they don't defend.

On the one hand you've got the Al Jefferson and Enes Kanter type. On the other, the DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler type.

But if a new Tim Duncan arrived on a scene, if a prospect like Embiid or Towns turned out to be as good as advertised... the league would be just as clueless as to how to stop them as it's ever been.