Looking back at the 2011-2014 Heat

[catch24]

Well balanced team who were great for their time. Win streaks... Finals appearances... Championships... Hypothetically speaking, if you were to replace LeBron, which superstar players (historically) would've also made 4 Finals appearances and win at least 2 championships?

[dubeta]

Ummm don't know really..

[christian1923]

Well balanced team who were great for their time. Win streaks... Finals appearances... Championships... Hypothetically speaking, if you were to replace LeBron, which superstar players (historically) would've also made 4 Finals appearances and win at least 2 championships?
Every player in the top 25

[Nash]

Well balanced team who were great for their time. Win streaks... Finals appearances... Championships... Hypothetically speaking, if you were to replace LeBron, which superstar players (historically) would've also made 4 Finals appearances and win at least 2 championships?
find me somebody who can lead that team in points, assists and rebounds while also defending 1-4.
Then maybe.

[DMV2]

Still playing in a cakewalk conference?

I think even a guy like T-MAC would have lead the Heat to the Finals. Wouldn't have won back-to-back but 5 straight Finals in the weakest conference of all-time isn't that impressive.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Every player in the top 25

I wouldn't go that far, but definitely most of the Top 15-20.

Far as today's players, I'm pretty sure KD and Melo could've gotten at least 1 chip. Durant would have probably equaled LeBron's success tbh (not saying much in a weak conference).

[DMAVS41]

Well balanced team who were great for their time. Win streaks... Finals appearances... Championships... Hypothetically speaking, if you were to replace LeBron, which superstar players (historically) would've also made 4 Finals appearances and win at least 2 championships?

Probably a few, but not quite as many as people think.

Most superstars win in 11. That was an all time loaded and talented team.

So, in this hypothetical, you just have to grant them winning in 11.



Now, the tough part comes in 12, 13, and 14.

The problem with 12 is that Bosh got hurt and beating the Celtics is hardly a lock. In fact, the Heat were down after 5 games in that series. In those first 5 games Lebron averaged 32/10/4 56% TS. So most likely any superstar is going to be down 2-3 in that series.

So the question is how many can get that team to win the last 2....including one on the road....and then after that....beat a very good Thunder team in the finals.

I honestly don't know the answer here....very difficult to put a percentage on this. Lebron was at the peak of his powers, imo, in 12....and I'm not sure many guys in NBA history are winning under those circumstances with Bosh hurt.


13/14....I think this is a bit easier. I think the most anyone wins here is 1. With the average being slightly less than 1 probably in that sense. Meaning...I think most superstars end up not beating the Spurs either way, but enough beat them once to make it pretty even.


So in all:

11 - Lock
12 - Possible, but not probable
13/14 - 1 max...average less than 1


So, depending on the player, I think the max is 3 titles...minimum is 1. Average likely 2 or slightly less than 2.

Put simply....the Heat/Lebron did not do anything you wouldn't have expected given their circumstances if you replaced Lebron with some of the best 20 or so players in NBA history in their primes/peaks.

Doesn't mean Lebron isn't and wasn't great. Doesn't mean he's only a top 20 players. Just means the results from those Heat teams were in line, slightly under imo, the expectations you'd have for most superstars given teams like that playing under those circumstances.

[DMV2]

'15 - a 60+ Hawks team lead by Paul Millsap, he didn't become a full-time starter caliber player until 2012.

'13 and '14 - Overrated ass Pacers
'12 - Rondo-led Celtics team w a bunch of over-the-hill players.
'11 - The worst ever MVP-led Bulls

[GIF REACTION]

They were favored only once in the 4 finals

[Hey Yo]

Still playing in a cakewalk conference?

I think even a guy like T-MAC would have lead the Heat to the Finals. Wouldn't have won back-to-back but 5 straight Finals in the weakest conference of all-time isn't that impressive.
Yet Magic went to 8 Finals in 10 years (in a much weaker conference but with much better teammates) and gets noting but praise.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Probably a few, but not quite as many as people think.

Most superstars win in 11. That was an all time loaded and talented team.

So, in this hypothetical, you just have to grant them winning in 11.



Now, the tough part comes in 12, 13, and 14.

The problem with 12 is that Bosh got hurt and beating the Celtics is hardly a lock. In fact, the Heat were down after 5 games in that series. In those first 5 games Lebron averaged 32/10/4 56% TS. So most likely any superstar is going to be down 2-3 in that series.

So the question is how many can get that team to win the last 2....including one on the road....and then after that....beat a very good Thunder team in the finals.

I honestly don't know the answer here....very difficult to put a percentage on this. Lebron was at the peak of his powers, imo, in 12....and I'm not sure many guys in NBA history are winning under those circumstances with Bosh hurt.


13/14....I think this is a bit easier. I think the most anyone wins here is 1. With the average being slightly less than 1 probably in that sense. Meaning...I think most superstars end up not beating the Spurs either way, but enough beat them once to make it pretty even.


So in all:

11 - Lock
12 - Possible, but not probable
13/14 - 1 max...average less than 1


So, depending on the player, I think the max is 3 titles...minimum is 1. Average likely 2 or slightly less than 2.

Put simply....the Heat/Lebron did not do anything you wouldn't have expected given their circumstances if you replaced Lebron with some of the best 20 or so players in NBA history in their primes/peaks.

Doesn't mean Lebron isn't and wasn't great. Doesn't mean he's only a top 20 players. Just means the results from those Heat teams were in line, slightly under imo, the expectations you'd have for most superstars given teams like that playing under those circumstances.

Agreed with pretty much all of this

I think conferences play a huge factor as well (people praising the 4 finals appearances), so good point on the "expected success".

LeBron is LeBron, but some of the best players would've thrived in that type of environment...coming out with a bundle of accomplishments.

[Hey Yo]

Most superstars win in 11. That was an all time loaded and talented team.
With Bibby's corpse and Joel Anthony in the starting lineup?

Not much talent outside of Wade, James and Bosh.

[DMV2]

Yet Magic went to 8 Finals in 10 years (in a much weaker conference but with much better teammates) and gets noting but praise.
He won like 5 of those trips though. Plus, legendary rivalry with Bird & the Celtics that gave the league primetime TV slot.

Meanwhile, Bran is having a "rivalry" with 35-year-old Tim Duncan and getting his legacy saved by a 35-year-old Ray Allen.

[Hey Yo]

'15 - a 60+ Hawks team lead by Paul Millsap, he didn't become a full-time starter caliber player until 2012.

'13 and '14 - Overrated ass Pacers
'12 - Rondo-led Celtics team w a bunch of over-the-hill players.
'11 - The worst ever MVP-led Bulls
Yet they swept the Heat in the regular season and was favored over the Heat in the series.

[PJR]

4 Straight NBA Finals, back to back titles, and a 27 game win streak (best since the merger), is an impressive run anyway you slice it.

[pegasus]

find me somebody who can lead that team in points, assists and rebounds while also defending 1-4.
Then maybe.
You don't have to replace him with an equal ball-hog. An all-star level player, who can create his shot as well as play off the ball, would be enough. And lol at defending 1-4.:roll: He gets shit on non-superstar SF's time and time again, yet you think you can act like he's a defensive force.:lol

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't think anyone besides MJ/Shaq/Wilt beat the 2012 Pacers/Celtics/OKC with those series' he had (top 3 GOAT run), neither the 2013 Pacers, in which Bosh was absolutely dreadful. 2014 nobody would beat those Spurs... 2011 is the open one, but who closes the Bulls and Celtics out the way Bron did? Who can do that? Perimeter guys only.. MJ, Kobe? Nah, he hasn't shown to be able of doing that in such regularity.

So I guess we settle with one?

[plowking]

I'll just say that most players don't get to the finals in 11. Bron choked hard then, but prior to that, the run was as tough as it gets. People act like Mike Bibby and Dampier were somehow contributing to our team... lol.

[aj1987]

I'll just say that most players don't get to the finals in 11. Bron choked hard then, but prior to that, the run was as tough as it gets. People act like Mike Bibby and Dampier were somehow contributing to our team... lol.
Joel Anthony and Rio made that team stacked AF, dude.

[GIF REACTION]

They were incredibly flawed teams too

Rebounds rebounds rebounds.... Was the topic of every Miami heat loss/trade discussion/etc

2013 is an incredibly underrated year too. That Miami team talent wise was not that stacked.... Lebron played at a historic level all season long... 57% 40% 3PT... Was a crazy season...

[catch24]

4 Straight NBA Finals, back to back titles, and a 27 game win streak (best since the merger), is an impressive run anyway you slice it.

Oh yeah. I'm not denying it wasn't, just simply asking how many guys not named LeBron could replicate that kind of success.

The consensus seems to be most of the top 10-15.

[aj1987]

Oh yeah. I'm not denying it wasn't, just simply asking how many guys not named LeBron could replicate that kind of success.

The consensus seems to be most of the top 10-15.
Only replacing LeBron? ~5-7 in the history of the NBA.

[ArbitraryWater]

Only replacing LeBron? ~5-7 in the history of the NBA.

Probably. For me, MJ/Shaq/Kareem/Bird.. Wilt choked too often to guarantee 4 finals trips, Russell can't carry the daily 35 something points LeBron is responsible for...Duncan looking on his 2001-2007 runs barely had a 'clean' guilt free run besides 2003... I'd say those 4 mentioned. Wilt next.

How rare is it to have just one poor series in 4 FULL DISTANCE playoff runs? Thats insane.. goat level peak.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'll just say that most players don't get to the finals in 11. Bron choked hard then, but prior to that, the run was as tough as it gets. People act like Mike Bibby and Dampier were somehow contributing to our team... lol.
2011 was definitely in terms of competition in their own conference and otherwise their most difficult run. I still see a few all time greats doing what he did in his place. 2012 vs Pacers, and vs Celtics are what narrow the field of players who could replicate what he did. But everything from the 2013, and 2014 playoffs are doable by a number of greats. Even 2015 to an extent in such a weak conference. They would've had to have the all around floor game potential to beat the 2015 Bulls though.

[ArbitraryWater]

2011 was definitely in terms of competition in their own conference and otherwise their most difficult run.

2009-2011 East was amazing.. too bad the West at that time didn't have 3 title caliber teams.. meh, now its the other way around.

[SamuraiSWISH]

2009-2011 East was amazing.. too bad the West at that time didn't have 3 title caliber teams.. meh, now its the other way around.
2011 is the one outlier in that Heat run of quality comp through out. It was also statistically LeBron getting the most help playing with a 26/6/5 guy and a 18/10 guy in their peak / primes. All the other positions at that point didn't matter.

[DMAVS41]

With Bibby's corpse and Joel Anthony in the starting lineup?

Not much talent outside of Wade, James and Bosh.

Take a look at the bold. Not much talent outside of 2 of the 4 best players in the league and another guy that was top 15 at worst? LOL

The 538 study ranks the 11 Heat as one of the 10 best supporting casts in terms of talent to reach the finals out of the last 62 (31 years). Now, that is just the supporting cast for Lebron.

Factor in Lebron's talent and combine it? It's the 2nd most talented team only behind the 96 Bulls.

We have to stop acting like the 11 team was flawed. It wasn't...they raped the league after the early struggles and it took Lebron playing the worst series possible for them to lose...and even with him playing like that...it took Dirk/Terry coming up huge in the close games for the Mavs to win.

11 is a lock in any hypothetical.

[ArbitraryWater]

[/B]

Take a look at the bold. Not much talent outside of 2 of the 4 best players in the league and another guy that was top 15 at worst? LOL

The 538 study ranks the 11 Heat as one of the 10 best supporting casts in terms of talent to reach the finals out of the last 62 (31 years). Now, that is just the supporting cast for Lebron.

Factor in Lebron's talent and combine it? It's the 2nd most talented team only behind the 96 Bulls.

We have to stop acting like the 11 team was flawed. It wasn't...they raped the league after the early struggles and it took Lebron playing the worst series possible for them to lose...and even with him playing like that...it took Dirk/Terry coming up huge in the close games for the Mavs to win.

11 is a lock in any hypothetical.

dafuq

[SCdac]

Heat got much better after getting Allen, Birdman, Battier.. and Lebron grew as a player after getting punked by Marion/Stevenson.. being clutch under pressure matters, which is why an addition of allen goes beyond stats... Miami improved from a 58-win team that collapsed in the Finals to a 66-win team couple seasons later that ousted a very good Spurs team in a tough series... Not sure how many superstars could take them as far as they did, at least a handful of the best of the best, but Lebron is such a versatile player which shouldn't be understated

[tpols]

Most top 25 players could replicate depending on position/redundancy..

in terms of chemistry wade and bron were at their poorest in 2011, while bosh was pretty much at his peak. If you throw a top 40 GOAT like Jason Kidd who led teams with Kerry kittles and Kenyon martin to the finals and now you give him prime d-wade, chris bosh, and some defensive role players and shooters.. you're telling me that team couldn't have a great success? The chemistry bonus alone would make them as good, if not better than what they were with Bron.

any team with x/Wade/Bosh + some defensive role players where x is a atg player that provides a ton of impact off the ball and allows wade to flourish has a great chance at winning titles together.. especially when you consider the fact that they would play in a statistically inferior conference which grants them easier roads to victory.

[DMAVS41]

Heat got much better after getting Allen, Birdman, Battier.. and Lebron grew as a player after getting punked by Marion/Stevenson.. being clutch under pressure matters, which is why an addition of allen goes beyond stats... Miami improved from a 58-win team that collapsed in the Finals to a 66-win team couple seasons later that ousted a very good Spurs team in a tough series... Not sure how many superstars could take them as far as they did, at least a handful of the best of the best, but Lebron is such a versatile player which shouldn't be understated

The 12 and 13 teams were the best and most talented if they were healthy.

The problem is they weren't.

The 13/14 Heat ranked as some of the worse supporting casts to ever make the finals in the last 31 years. There is no debating this anymore. The 13 Heat outside of Lebron were just not that great.

In terms of how good they were in the playoffs...it's clearly:

1. 11
2. 12 (could be 1 depending on how one views the Bosh injury)

3. 13
4. 14

[branslowski]

dafuq

Bosh 1 year before LeBron was a 20-10 type player. Was actually better than Gasol during his time before he linked up with Bron...Yet for some odd reason you hype Gasol and underrate Bosh...I wonder why..:rolleyes:

Bosh 20-10 seasons: 3
Gasol 20-10 seasons: 0

Bosh 10 Time All-Star
Gasol 5 Time All-Star

Both even level players throughout their careers honestly.

[branslowski]

Kobe easily. LeBron's had Superstars Wade and Bosh as his 2nd and 3rd best players. Kobe won titles with Gasol and Odom as his 2nd and 3rd best players.

Need More?

1 season before LeBron, Bosh was a 20-10 type player and Wade was the top 3 player in the NBA, a 27-7-7 type player. Compare that with Kobe's 2nd and 3rd players...Wade easily sh!ts on Gasol, and Bosh and Odom isn't even debatable.

Not to mention, Kobe can make the best out of great talent while LeBron turns great talent into spot up shooters who numbers go down drastically while playing with him.

Honestly, you take any All-Time top 10 great and give him 2 superstar teammates and place his in the current sh!tty east and you'll see the same results...Although regular season MVP wise, I think it would be hard for anyone to match that.

[ArbitraryWater]

The 12 and 13 teams were the best and most talented if they were healthy.

The problem is they weren't.

The 13 Heat ranked as one of the worse supporting casts to ever make the finals in the last 31 years. There is no debating this anymore. The 13 Heat outside of Lebron were just not that great.

It's hard to think of guys that could replace that versatility LeBron showed in that Pacers series, where Bosh, again, had one of the worst series' by an all-star ever (think about his # all star selections in the West with Sheed/Webber/Dirk/KG/Duncan... nada).. the rebounding, playmaking, clutchness, defense (defending 1-4, shut down David West in Game 7)... just ruthless.

Then that 16 pt 4th quarter/OT game 6?

I mean... who is even able to score 49 against the Nets and hold off that ECSF? That Heat team was absolutely washed...

And then LeBron in the Finals playing teams like Spurs/OKC/GSW, all teams among the best ever... no Kidd Nets, Iverson Sixers or Miller Pacers for example..

digging OP's thread, really demonstrating just how GOATly this run is.

[brownmamba00]

Bosh 1 year before LeBron was a 20-10 type player. Was actually better than Gasol during his time before he linked up with Bron...Yet for some odd reason you hype Gasol and underrate Bosh...I wonder why..:rolleyes:

Bosh 20-10 seasons: 3
Gasol 20-10 seasons: 0

Bosh 10 Time All-Star
Gasol 5 Time All-Star

Both even level players throughout their careers honestly.
they'll do anything to prop up their boy.

[ArbitraryWater]

Here go Lakers fans shitting on Gasol, trying to put him on the same level as Bosh Spice.

2009-2010 Gasol > 2012-2013 Wade
2009-2010 Odom > 2012-2013 Bosh

[SamuraiSWISH]

[/B]

Take a look at the bold. Not much talent outside of 2 of the 4 best players in the league and another guy that was top 15 at worst? LOL

The 538 study ranks the 11 Heat as one of the 10 best supporting casts in terms of talent to reach the finals out of the last 62 (31 years). Now, that is just the supporting cast for Lebron.

Factor in Lebron's talent and combine it? It's the 2nd most talented team only behind the 96 Bulls.

We have to stop acting like the 11 team was flawed. It wasn't...they raped the league after the early struggles and it took Lebron playing the worst series possible for them to lose...and even with him playing like that...it took Dirk/Terry coming up huge in the close games for the Mavs to win.

11 is a lock in any hypothetical.
Thank you, someone gets it. 2011 is easily their most talented team in that run. Who cares about the corpse of Mike Bobby and Joel Anthony. You had those three guys at just before, just after at the peak of their powers. All still clearly in their absolute prime. That level of overwhelming talent trumps marginally better role players and niche guys.

The underrating of the 2011 Heat had to stop. Just because LeBron pouted and wet the bed in the Finals. Disappearing like a coward when they were clearly the superior team to Dallas doesn't make that team not by far the most talented supporting cast I've seen a superstar play with.

Shaq had a rising Kobe. And trash. Fadeaway Jordan had quality defenders and shooters in the second three peat along with Pippen.

That 2011 Heat team had no business losing. Even when for narrative sakes the analysts made them underdogs in a given series. That's a poor regular season record, and lack of a championship given the tools to win on that team.

An MVP caliber sidekick whose own production rivals LeBron; and a 3rd best player being a former franchise guy on low seed playoff teams akin to at the time Kobe's main supplemental piece. Bosh was the American Gasol without the passing ability. Everything else very similar. Although he's clearly the better defender compared to Pau. This guy was Miami's third option and just last season he got another max contract.

SMH @ Bron stans trying to make world beaters, 2/5ths of the Olympic team into bums. Pathetic excuse makers. Your boy flat out Wilted (aka Chamberlained) in the Finals.

Bron makes bad teams look good. And good teams pedestrian instead of dominant.

[ArbitraryWater]

Thank you, someone gets it. 2011 is easily their most talented team in that run. Who cares about the corpse of Mike Bobby and Joel Anthony. You had those three guys at just before, just after at the peak of their powers. All still clearly in their absolute prime. That level of overwhelming talent trumps marginally better role players and niche guys.

The underrating of the 2011 Heat had to stop. Just because LeBron pouted and wet the bed in the Finals. Disappearing like a coward when they were clearly the superior team to Dallas doesn't make that team not by far the most talented supporting cast I've seen a superstar play with.

Shaq had a rising Kobe. And trash. Fadeaway Jordan had quality defenders and shooters in the second three peat along with Pippen.

That 2011 Heat team had no business losing. Even when for narrative sakes the analysts made them underdogs in a given series. That's a poor regular season record, and lack of a championship given the tools to win on that team.

An MVP caliber sidekick whose own production rivals LeBron; and a 3rd best player being a former franchise guy on low seed playoff teams akin to at the time Kobe's main supplemental piece. Bosh was the American Gasol without the passing ability. Everything else very similar. Although he's clearly the better defender compared to Pau. This guy was Miami's third option and just last season he got another max contract.

SMH @ Bron stans trying to make world beaters, 2/5ths of the Olympic team into bums. Pathetic excuse makers. Your boy flat out Wilted (aka Chamberlained) in the Finals.

Bron makes bad teams look good. And good teams pedestrian instead of dominant.

explain.. which ones? which years?

[SamuraiSWISH]

explain.. which ones? which years?
2011, and 2013 playoffs / Finals. Wade wasn't the shell he's being made out to be in that particular season. Or this season? A team with guys like Kyrie and Love giving support and you start the season 19-20 ... before needing even more talent to turn things around? Mozgov, Shumpert, and JR were key additions.

[DMAVS41]

It's hard to think of guys that could replace that versatility LeBron showed in that Pacers series, where Bosh, again, had one of the worst series' by an all-star ever (think about his # all star selections in the West with Sheed/Webber/Dirk/KG/Duncan... nada).. the rebounding, playmaking, clutchness, defense (defending 1-4, shut down David West in Game 7)... just ruthless.

Then that 16 pt 4th quarter/OT game 6?

I mean... who is even able to score 49 against the Nets and hold off that ECSF? That Heat team was absolutely washed...

And then LeBron in the Finals playing teams like Spurs/OKC/GSW, all teams among the best ever... no Kidd Nets, Iverson Sixers or Miller Pacers for example..

digging OP's thread, really demonstrating just how GOATly this run is.


I'm not sure the odds, but I think it's nearly impossible any other player wins each year in 12, 13, and 14...

While I do think that most top 15 or so GOAT type players win 1 in those years.

Hence with the 11 lock...it makes the results about what you'd expect give or take.

Obviously players matter. Jordan wins 3. Duncan wins 3. Kareem wins 3...imo of course.

Other players only win 1...etc.

Average, in my opinion, would be something like 1.8 titles per player won if you did it for the top 20 GOAT players.

[tpols]

Kobe easily. LeBron's had Superstars Wade and Bosh as his 2nd and 3rd best players. Kobe won titles with Gasol and Odom as his 2nd and 3rd best players.

Need More?

1 season before LeBron, Bosh was a 20-10 type player and Wade was the top 3 player in the NBA, a 27-7-7 type player. Compare that with Kobe's 2nd and 3rd players...Wade easily sh!ts on Gasol, and Bosh and Odom isn't even debatable.

Not to mention, Kobe can make the best out of great talent while LeBron turns great talent into spot up shooters who numbers go down drastically while playing with him.

Honestly, you take any All-Time top 10 great and give him 2 superstar teammates and place his in the current sh!tty east and you'll see the same results...Although regular season MVP wise, I think it would be hard for anyone to match that.

Kobe would be redundant imo.. just like Lebron but the team would perform similarly results wise through it just being overwhelming having two 25+ppg guys come at your defense all night with even a 20/10 big man just chilling on the side. :D

It's just overkill.


But I could see a heat team with for instance Steve Nash on it, a player lower on GOAT list than Kobe doing even better than Kobe in that situation because of fit with Wade and Bosh. Hell there are a bunch of guys even in top 50 that based on chemistry could win just two titles.

[ArbitraryWater]

2011, and 2013 playoffs / Finals. Wade wasn't the shell he's being made out to be in that particular season.

2011 isn't LeBron making a dominat team look pedestrian wtf...

they stomped the Celtics and Bulls and then he choked... I thought this was known by now?

2013, 66 wins, 27-game winning streak, and..... you're gonna blame LeBron for Bosh being an overrated Flower Forward? For his 4 rpg and 38% shooting?

Wade's dominant 16 ppg? LeBron litteraly won the title with Birdman as his 2nd best player through the East :bowdown:

Those Heat teams just weren't very dominant when Wade wasn't 100% healthy... even in that winning streak a bunch of games came down to comebacks and last second shots.

I think you now that shit makes no sense... that whole "makes great teams bad" or whatever it is...

I mean, at least this is an interesting hypothetical... for Kobe in 2009 and 2010 you could seriously pick out 3 players from the SAME year in his situation and they'd win.. lol.

[SCdac]

The underrating of the 2011 Heat had to stop. Just because LeBron pouted and wet the bed in the Finals. Disappearing like a coward when they were clearly the superior team to Dallas doesn't make that team not by far the most talented supporting cast I've seen a superstar play with.

But for all we know Lebron was going to do that against other competition at the time. For all we know that was a natural part of his progression as a player - as many of the all-time greats have had horrible, tough losses too. Not to mention half that roster was about to be retired. Also - which to me is surprising coming from NBA enthusiasts who just watched uber-great teams in the '14 Spurs and '15 Warriors - people do not give the Mavs enough credit for being a great, dominant team who's RS record probably didn't do them justice in terms of representativeness. Tyson Chandler won DPOY the next season and it's difficult to quantify the 'championship hunger' that veteran players like Dirk, Kidd, and Marion had. J Kidd lead the team in assists, three's made, and steals iirc

[branslowski]

Here go Lakers fans shitting on Gasol, trying to put him on the same level as Bosh Spice.

2009-2010 Gasol > 2012-2013 Wade
2009-2010 Odom > 2012-2013 Bosh

Using numbers from those years

Wade- 21ppg 5reb 5ast 1.9stl 0.8blk PER 24
Gasol- 18ppg 11reb 3ast 0.6stl 1.7blk PER 22

Bosh- 16ppg 6reb 1ast 1stl 1.4blk PER 20
Odom- 10ppg 9reb 3ast 1stl 0.7blk PER 15.9

:confusedshrug:

Look I love Gasol and Odom, but no way in hell anyone on Earth without an agenda is gonna say Gasol/Odom is greater than Wade/Bosh. You legit lost it bro. That 2/6 PTSD

I keep using facts and logic in this thread while you use...nothing but butthurt.

[DMAVS41]

But for all we know Lebron was going to do that against other competition at the time. For all we know that was a natural part of his progression as a player - as many of the all-time greats have had horrible, tough losses too. Not to mention half that roster was about to be retired. Also - which to me is surprising coming from NBA enthusiasts who just watched uber-great teams in the '14 Spurs and '15 Warriors - people do not give the Mavs enough credit for being a great, dominant team who's RS record probably didn't do them justice in terms of representativeness. Tyson Chandler won DPOY the next season and it's difficult to quantify the 'championship hunger' that veteran players like Dirk, Kidd, and Marion had. J Kidd lead the team in assists, three's made, and steals iirc

The 11 Finals remains one of the biggest, if not the biggest, upsets in finals history based on talent vs talent.

Lebron plays average and they win.

I agree with you about that Mavs team, especially in the playoffs, this isn't about them not being great.

It's about having the 2nd most talented team to make the finals in the last 31 years with prime/peak Lebron/Wade/Bosh.

Most superstars and all time great players simply aren't losing with that often, if ever.

[GIF REACTION]

The 11 Finals remains one of the biggest, if not the biggest, upsets in finals history based on talent vs talent.

Lebron plays average and they win.

I agree with you about that Mavs team, especially in the playoffs, this isn't about them not being great.

It's about having the 2nd most talented team to make the finals in the last 31 years with prime/peak Lebron/Wade/Bosh.

Most superstars and all time great players simply aren't losing with that often, if ever.
You are seriously underrating the 2011 Mavericks and overrating the 2011 Heat

[SCdac]

The 11 Finals remains one of the biggest, if not the biggest, upsets in finals history based on talent vs talent.

Lebron plays average and they win.

I agree with you about that Mavs team, especially in the playoffs, this isn't about them not being great.

It's about having the 2nd most talented team to make the finals in the last 31 years with prime/peak Lebron/Wade/Bosh.

Most superstars and all time great players simply aren't losing with that often, if ever.

It's absolutely what this is about.. I mean, lets face, the Mavs were much better than the Heat and that includes the defensive effort of Marion, Stevenson, Kidd, Chandler, and even Dirk... I'd argue Carlisle >>>>> Spoelstra too, and surely coaching matters, as well as chemistry and cohesiveness. Mavs had that, and some... We can say "what if" Lebron does this or that, but the fact is he did what he did and the Mavs were not merely bystanders - they caused it

[branslowski]

You are seriously underrating the 2011 Mavericks and overrating the 2011 Heat

Honestly both teams were great. Heat had more talent though.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Oh yeah. I'm not denying it wasn't, just simply asking how many guys not named LeBron could replicate that kind of success.

The consensus seems to be most of the top 10-15.

Top 15-20 IMO. KD and Melo would have some success as well, especially KD who could play without the ball unlike Bran.

tldr; miami's championships were to be expected, and many, in LeBron's place, would have "replicated" the same/similar success.

[ArbitraryWater]

Bosh (2013): 12/7 on 46%
Odom (2009): 12/9 on 52%

Damn, if you "love Odom", then you're sure reaching hard to say Bosh was better...

The previous year Odom did 14/10 on 49%, wanna know what Bosh did the previous year? 14/8 on 49%...

these guys are pretty much the same, the only difference is one is playing in the weaker positioned conference which allows him to rack up all-star selections.

Comparing Bosh to Gasol is pretty pathetic, real Laker fans would be ashamed.

Wade was pretty much always in a win-win... if he performed 'wow, Wade! 3rd greatest SG!' if he didn't, 'broken down, hurt'

2012 and 2013 Wade isn't the Wade that worked himself to a top 25 all time career...

while Pau did 19/11/3 on a reliable 56% (2009-2010), Wade did 19/5/5 on 46% (2012-2013).. this is only not comparable if you're desperate on the Kobe/Bron agenda you're having...

Odom is one of the most versatile bigs ever, better rebounder, way better playmaker, and better defender than Bosh... like a rich mans version.

Gasol is one of the finest players to ever come out of Europe, can shoot, pass, rebound, handle the ball (go back and look at those fast breaks he ran, Showtime haha), P n R player, has a hookshot, up and under....

just sad to see Kobetards tear these amazing players apart because the team was so well built and loaded.

[DMAVS41]

It's absolutely what this is about.. I mean, lets face, the Mavs were much better than the Heat and that includes the defensive effort of Marion, Stevenson, Kidd, Chandler, and even Dirk... I'd argue Carlisle >>>>> Spoelstra too, and surely coaching matters, as well as chemistry and cohesiveness. Mavs had that, and some... We can say "what if" Lebron does this or that, but the fact is he did what he did and the Mavs were not merely bystanders - they caused it

I completely agree that the Mavs deserve credit, but you are basically arguing that there are no upsets.

Which I find silly.

[DMAVS41]

You are seriously underrating the 2011 Mavericks and overrating the 2011 Heat

I'm really not.

I probably give the 11 Mavs more credit here than most.

You could accuse me of saying the 11 Heat are over-rated, but again, I really don't think they were.

[ArbitraryWater]

Top 15-20 IMO. KD and Melo would have some success as well, especially KD who could play without the ball unlike Bran.

tldr; miami's championships were to be expected, and many, in LeBron's place, would have "replicated" the same/similar success.

this is ridiculous, no? Melo, was he even a top 10 player in any of these years, 2013? How do you figure KD suddenly equaling peak LeBron, because thats what was needed in series' that went 7 games... both in 2012 and 2013.. some of you peeps should be a fan of something else than Basketball, gawd damn, it's like being the most versatile perimeter player ever is easy to replace to some of y'all :lol

Who cares if he completely shut down players... MELO AND KD DOE!

cmon Mighty.. come again

[branslowski]

Bosh (2013): 12/7 on 46%
Odom (2009): 12/9 on 52%

Damn, if you "love Odom", then you're sure reaching hard to say Bosh was better...

The previous year Odom did 14/10 on 49%, wanna know what Bosh did the previous year? 14/8 on 49%...

these guys are pretty much the same, the only difference is one is playing in the weaker positioned conference which allows him to rack up all-star selections.

Comparing Bosh to Gasol is pretty pathetic, real Laker fans would be ashamed.

Wade was pretty much always in a win-win... if he performed 'wow, Wade! 3rd greatest SG!' if he didn't, 'broken down, hurt'

2012 and 2013 Wade isn't the Wade that worked himself to a top 25 all time career...

while Pau did 19/11/3 on a reliable 56% (2009-2010), Wade did 19/5/5 on 46% (2012-2013).. this is only not comparable if you're desperate on the Kobe/Bron agenda you're having...

Odom is one of the most versatile bigs ever, better rebounder, way better playmaker, and better defender than Bosh... like a rich mans version.

Gasol is one of the finest players to ever come out of Europe, can shoot, pass, rebound, handle the ball (go back and look at those fast breaks he ran, Showtime haha), P n R player, has a hookshot, up and under....

just sad to see Kobetards tear these amazing players apart because the team was so well built and loaded.

Not only did you use the wrong numbers (09-10 Odom avg 10-9 and Bosh avg 16-6:facepalm , and you took 2 ppg from Wade...) but your openly being an idiot here. You even left out the PER numbers I posted for those years.

You legit think Odom is better than Bosh? You legit thin Gasol is better than Wade? You legit think your agenda is invisible deoderant don't you?:coleman:

[SCdac]

the more people denigrate the 2011 Mavs the more it makes it seem like their championship was a fluke, dependent completely on Lebron making or missing baskets.. I disagree with their champ team being regarded as essentially a fluke. It was their time and they seized it in dominant fashion - just like the Detroit Pistons didn't care if they were going up against a combo of Shaq, Kobe, Malone, and Payton. Terms like "upsets" are largely based on (lack of) reputation and (mis)perception. The Mavs shit the bed so many times prior, that it was genuinely a surprise to see them not do that. Since 2008, Spurs were (kind of) beginning to create a negative reputation as being old and incapable of going all the way, but they shattered that perception too and people realized they were wrong. But when the 'shock' where's off (anything involving Lebron creates some kind of shockwave), it was clear how great and determined their Mavs team really was. Credit to all involved. It's a shame it's about "Heat losing" and not about their deep team winning

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Most top 25 players could replicate depending on position/redundancy..

in terms of chemistry wade and bron were at their poorest in 2011, while bosh was pretty much at his peak. If you throw a top 40 GOAT like Jason Kidd who led teams with Kerry kittles and Kenyon martin to the finals and now you give him prime d-wade, chris bosh, and some defensive role players and shooters.. you're telling me that team couldn't have a great success? The chemistry bonus alone would make them as good, if not better than what they were with Bron.

any team with x/Wade/Bosh + some defensive role players where x is a atg player that provides a ton of impact off the ball and allows wade to flourish has a great chance at winning titles together.. especially when you consider the fact that they would play in a statistically inferior conference which grants them easier roads to victory.

That's where people miss the point. Lebron is so ball dominant and high usage that he turns great on the ball players into off the ball, spot up shooters. Look at Wade's per 36 numbers (he's only averaging about 33-34 a game, so its apt here). Dude's offense got marginalized with Bran. As did Bosh's.

[ArbitraryWater]

Not only did you use the wrong numbers (09-10 Odom avg 10-9 and Bosh avg 16-6:facepalm , and you took 2 ppg from Wade...) but your openly being an idiot here. You even left out the PER numbers I posted for those years.

You legit think Odom is better than Bosh? You legit thin Gasol is better than Wade? You legit think your agenda is invisible deoderant don't you?:coleman:

dude, all the numbers I posted are correct.. assuming you actually went on BR and you're still not able to comprehend what those stats say right infront of your face, I can't help but laugh at that ghetto education of yours. Sorry.

[DMAVS41]

the more people denigrate the 2011 Mavs the more it makes it seem like their championship was a fluke, dependent completely on Lebron making or missing baskets.. I disagree with their champ team being regarded as essentially a fluke. It was their time and they seized it in dominant fashion - just like the Detroit Pistons didn't care if they were going up against a combo of Shaq, Kobe, Malone, and Payton. Terms like "upsets" are largely based on (lack of) reputation and (mis)perception. The Mavs shit the bed so many times prior, that it was genuinely a surprise to see them not do that. Since 2008, Spurs were (kind of) beginning to create a negative reputation as being old and incapable of going all the way, but they shattered that perception too and people realized they were wrong. But when the 'shock' where's off (anything involving Lebron creates some kind of shockwave), it was clear how great and determined their Mavs team really was. Credit to all involved. It's a shame it's about "Heat losing" and not about their deep team winning


You seem to always want a very simplistic and narrow view on everything.

Why can't it be both?

Why can't we just openly and honestly talk about how the Mavs were and played great...and absolutely deserve credit for defending Lebron like they did....

But also mention that an all time top 15 GOAT has to also just play poorly or mentally crumble to be that bad in a series against a great, but hardly all time dominant team/offense/defense.

Jason Terry and Marion were clowning this guy on offense man. Lebron couldn't guard in that series. Shit...we sometimes would switch Barea on him and not bring help because he was so shook.

Life isn't as black and white as you want it to be. The correct answer is almost always some version of both extremes.

The Mavs proved themselves to be a great team, but that doesn't mean Lebron didn't choke his bitch ass off in the finals.

And even with Lebron doing that...it was still a close series and could have gone many different ways in those 4th qtrs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

this is ridiculous, no? Melo, was he even a top 10 player in any of these years, 2013?

Melo was easily top 5 in 2013.

KD would fit those teams better than Lebron, and Bosh wouldn't relegated to a role player either since Lebron needs a godly amount of spacing for him to be able to operate while KD can score from anywhere on the court...

KD walks away with 3-4 rings, they would have won in 2011 as KD wouldn't have been the 3rd leading scorer on his own team like Lebron was.

2012 would have been the repeat.

2013 they get through that shit conference, KD doesn't play as poorly as Lebron did in the opening 5 1/2 games, Bosh is used properly.. Heat in 6

[branslowski]

dude, all the numbers I posted are correct.. assuming you actually went on BR and you're still not able to comprehend what those stats say right infront of your face, I can't help but laugh at that ghetto education of yours. Sorry.

Right...:rolleyes:

Again, do you legit think Odom>>Bosh, and Gasol>>Wade?? With a straight face?:coleman:

[DMAVS41]

Lets not get into this Pau/Odom 09/10 vs Wade/Bosh 13/14

They were very similar and I'd actually favor Pau/Odom.

We have to stop pretending like Wade/Bosh were their normal selves in those playoffs....and blaming Lebron for that is silly those years.

Blame him for 11. But Wade/Bosh just weren't that good in 13 and 14. Still good, they didn't suck or anything, but they weren't the type of players they would have been if right.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

this is ridiculous, no? Melo, was he even a top 10 player in any of these years, 2013? How do you figure KD suddenly equaling peak LeBron, because thats what was needed in series' that went 7 games... both in 2012 and 2013.. some of you peeps should be a fan of something else than Basketball, gawd damn, it's like being the most versatile perimeter player ever is easy to replace to some of y'all :lol

Who cares if he completely shut down players... MELO AND KD DOE!

cmon Mighty.. come again

Melo would have a title for sure, and that's the '11 one.

KD would be a great fit for that Heat team. You could move Wade into a hybrid PG and bird-feed KD for open buckets. His shooting (midrange and 3PT) completely open up Miami's offense, so yeah, they would have A LOT of success with dude.

Being more ball dominant isn't always optimal. Basketball 101. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Right...:rolleyes:

Again, do you legit think Odom>>Bosh, and Gasol>>Wade?? With a straight face?:coleman:

Sigh...lets get this out of the way

I think the years he's talking about...

I think Pau was better in 09/10 than Wade was in 13/14 in the playoffs....I honestly don't think anyone could really argue that if you watched.

Odom vs Bosh in those same years? Close...probably favor Bosh here, but it's close.

[Legends66NBA7]

Melo would have a title for sure, and that's the '11 one.

KD would be a great fit for that Heat team. You could move Wade into a hybrid PG and bird-feed KD for open buckets. His shooting (midrange and 3PT) completely open up Miami's offense, so yeah, they would have A LOT of success with dude.

Being more ball dominant isn't always optimal. Basketball 101. :confusedshrug:

I could agree with Melo winning in 11, but that would still have more to do with Wade being better. I dont see them winning anything after that with Melo.

[Indian guy]

You have to remember, Miami was so lacking up front that LeBron was actually playing the 4 more often than not from 12-14. On top of being the team's leading scorer and assist man, he was also the team's top rebounder and by a pretty significant margin too. There's a reason why Miami couldn't even play .500 ball this past season without him - LeBron was just that valuable. With the exception of Bird and maybe Magic, what other perimeter player would be able to bring everything he did? Also, the East was hardly some cake walk for Miami in their 2 title winning seasons, and that's with LeBron playing really good playoff basketball in '12 and '13.

Big men, preferably centers, would do best on those Heat teams in place of LeBron. KAJ, Shaq, Hakeem, TD, D-Rob, Ewing. You solidify the middle that way with a real C and Bosh no longer playing out of position, and hope that front court is great enough so Wade's inconsistency doesn't end up costing them the title.

[SCdac]

You seem to always want a very simplistic and narrow view on everything.

Why can't it be both?

Why can't we just openly and honestly talk about how the Mavs were and played great...and absolutely deserve credit for defending Lebron like they did....

But also mention that an all time top 15 GOAT has to also just play poorly or mentally crumble to be that bad in a series against a great, but hardly all time dominant team/offense/defense.

Jason Terry and Marion were clowning this guy on offense man. Lebron couldn't guard in that series. Shit...we sometimes would switch Barea on him and not bring help because he was so shook.

Life isn't as black and white as you want it to be. The correct answer is almost always some version of both extremes.

The Mavs proved themselves to be a great team, but that doesn't mean Lebron didn't choke his bitch ass off in the finals.

And even with Lebron doing that...it was still a close series and could have gone many different ways in those 4th qtrs.

All this stuff, particularly the bolded, just leads me to believe the 2011 Heat just weren't ready to win a championship (which means not only having to beat the east, but also the best western team too, ala the final hurdle)... the Heat got beat by, as you say, hardly an all-time dominant team (I agree with that).. so how does that suddenly mean the Heat were all time greats themselves? Not the "supporting cast", but the team altogether which is what basketball is. Not 1 vs. 1, not 3 vs. 3, but whole teams against each other...Lebron choking against pipsqueak Barea = 2011 Heat being vulnerable and not ready

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I could agree with Melo winning in 11, but that would still have more to do with Wade being better. I dont see them winning anything after that with Melo.

I don't either. Don't trust him to fill that void Miami needed in 2012 and 2013.

KD is one guy I'd bet on having heaps of success, though.

[DMAVS41]

I could agree with Melo winning in 11, but that would still have more to do with Wade being better. I dont see them winning anything after that with Melo.

Melo?

Shit no they don't win anything after 11.

Honestly they probably lose to the Bulls in 11....it would have been way closer.

Lebron vs Melo is an enormous gap...enormous.

I was talking about top 20 GOAT type players...not that clown Melo.

[DMAVS41]

All this stuff, particularly the bolded, just leads me to believe the 2011 Heat just weren't ready to win a championship (which means not only having to beat the east, but also the best western team too, ala the final hurdle)... the Heat got beat by, as you say, hardly an all-time dominant team (I agree with that).. so how does that suddenly mean the Heat were all time greats themselves? Not the "supporting cast", but the team altogether which is what basketball is. Not 1 vs. 1, not 3 vs. 3, but whole teams against each other...Lebron choking against pipsqueak Barea = 2011 Heat being vulnerable and not ready

Meh...you could play this game so many ways though.

They were ready in 13? When it took blind luck and random ball bounces to make it happen?

Just seems so arbitrary...

If Dirk and or Terry miss like 2 more 4th qtr shots in games 2-5...the Heat probably win the series. This stuff is just too fragile to deem a team "not ready" because of singular moments.

This isn't just about Lebron though. It's about the strength of the team...and in this thread...about how other players would do. It's removing the choker and putting in a top GOAT type player.

Shit, the series before, a pre prime 22 year old KD tuned is up for 28 a game. Wade destroyed us for the most part in the finals.

Again...we just view this differently. I think upsets can happen. You don't.

You put prime Larry Bird or prime Duncan on that 11 Heat team and you think the Mavs are winning because the Heat "aren't ready"? I just can't believe you actually think that.

[tpols]

That's where people miss the point. Lebron is so ball dominant and high usage that he turns great on the ball players into off the ball, spot up shooters. Look at Wade's per 36 numbers (he's only averaging about 33-34 a game, so its apt here). Dude's offense got marginalized with Bran. As did Bosh's.

yup, agreed




Melo?

Shit no they don't win anything after 11.

Honestly they probably lose to the Bulls in 11....it would have been way closer.

Lebron vs Melo is an enormous gap...enormous.

I was talking about top 20 GOAT type players...not that clown Melo.

The thing though is you're massively disrepecting Dwayne Wade by saying stuff like this. A guy you hold on the same level as Kobe in terms of prime ability.. saying he cant win a title with a melo and bosh.. one top 10 player and another top 20. And then filled out in later years with extremely good role players.

This thread is basically who could be second option to wade and be a title winning duo (with bosh on the side) and the answer to that could be a lot of players for how good a player wade was.

[DMAVS41]

yup, agreed





The thing though is you're massively disrepecting Dwayne Wade by saying stuff like this. A guy you hold on the same level as Kobe in terms of prime ability.. saying he cant win a title with a melo and bosh.. one top 10 player and another top 20. And then filled out in later years with extremely good role players.

This thread is basically who could be second option to wade and be a title winning duo (with bosh on the side) and the answer to that could be a lot of players for how good a player wade was.


Are we assuming Wade is healthy in 12, 13, and 14? Because obviously my answer changes.

But Wade wasn't right in 12 (still good, but not good enough to win with Melo), and just a shell in 13/14 for the most part.

[SCdac]

Meh...you could play this game so many ways though.

They were ready in 13? When it took blind luck and random ball bounces to make it happen?

Just seems so arbitrary...

If Dirk and or Terry miss like 2 more 4th qtr shots in games 2-5...the Heat probably win the series. This stuff is just too fragile to deem a team "not ready" because of singular moments.

This isn't just about Lebron though. It's about the strength of the team...and in this thread...about how other players would do. It's removing the choker and putting in a top GOAT type player.

Shit, the series before, a pre prime 22 year old KD tuned is up for 28 a game. Wade destroyed us for the most part in the finals.

Again...we just view this differently. I think upsets can happen. You don't.

Lebron is one of those types of players though... For all we know the determined Mavs do work against other past greats in only their second Finals too... 2011 KD and Kobe weren't chopped liver, and the championship Mavs beat em... although I'm hesitant to isolate performances in what's ultimately a team game, but for the sake of the thread sure... Like I said, I think a handful of the best of the best could take the Heat far like Lebron, but Lebron is one of the best of the best himself so idk... credit to the Mavs, the Heat naturally got better as they gelled, added players, and learned from their mistakes

[tpols]

Are we assuming Wade is healthy in 12, 13, and 14? Because obviously my answer changes.

But Wade wasn't right in 12 (still good, but not good enough to win with Melo), and just a shell in 13/14 for the most part.

Wade was healthy in 2012.. and in 2011. And you just said you think he wouldnt win a title with melo and bosh as his second and third options.

Like saying Wade/Melo/Bosh would lose to the bulls.. you're basing that off melo not being able to replicate bron but not taking into consideration that Wade would have a lot more of the PnR ball handling responsibility and be more involved. That series was the Bron and Bosh show and wade sorta just took a backseat. If Bron's not there the whole dynamic changes.


Fk yea I would take Melo/Wade/Bosh + scrubs over the the team with the guy you claim to be one of the worst chokers ever.. leading a band of robot thib army rebounders and hustlers. The talent is absolutely overwhelming. And Melo would slide very nicely into the closer role while letting wade go in the flow. There would be no awkward bran and wade hot potatoing anymore. Just a 1-2, wade to start melo to finish.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Are we assuming Wade is healthy in 12, 13, and 14? Because obviously my answer changes.

But Wade wasn't right in 12 (still good, but not good enough to win with Melo), and just a shell in 13/14 for the most part.

I think much of that had to do with Wade sacrificing his on-ball duties. He said as much around the 2012 season, where he handed LeBron the keys to the offense.

To be fair, Wade isn't an elite off-ball player either.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron is one of those types of players though... For all we know the determined Mavs do work against other past greats in only their second Finals too... 2011 KD and Kobe weren't chopped liver, and the championship Mavs beat em... although I'm hesitant to isolate performances in what's ultimately a team game, but for the sake of the thread sure... Like I said, I think a handful of the best of the best could take the Heat far like Lebron, but Lebron is one of the best of the best himself so idk... credit to the Mavs, the Heat naturally got better as they gelled, added players, and learned from their mistakes

You keep saying the Heat got better.

But they didn't get better....certainly not in the playoffs around Lebron.

Again...the talent on that 11 Heat team was the best it was during their run.

In the regular season...here is how the teams ranked:

11...3rd on offense / 5th on defense
12....8th on offense / 4th on defense
13....2nd on offense / 9th on defense
14....5th on offense / 11th on defense

There is just nothing that supports the Heat "got a lot better" around Lebron after 11.

Also, that stuff in 11 includes their first 20 games in which they weren't good at all. They clearly figured things out after that.

KD was pre prime in 11 and Kobe had slipped a little as well. Yes, still impressive to beat them, but they aren't prime Larry Bird/Shaq/Duncan/Magic...etc.

The truth is simple here.

Mavs deserve a lot of credit. Lebron got shook and played poorly in some areas that the Mavs had little to nothing to do with.

[ArbitraryWater]

You have to remember, Miami was so lacking up front that LeBron was actually playing the 4 more often than not from 12-14. On top of being the team's leading scorer and assist man, he was also the team's top rebounder and by a pretty significant margin too. There's a reason why Miami couldn't even play .500 ball this past season without him - LeBron was just that valuable. With the exception of Bird and maybe Magic, what other perimeter player would be able to bring everything he did? Also, the East was hardly some cake walk for Miami in their 2 title winning seasons, and that's with LeBron playing really good playoff basketball in '12 and '13.

Big men, preferably centers, would do best on those Heat teams in place of LeBron. KAJ, Shaq, Hakeem, TD, D-Rob, Ewing. You solidify the middle that way with a real C and Bosh no longer playing out of position, and hope that front court is great enough so Wade's inconsistency doesn't end up costing them the title.

pretty much.. I think we know Kobe isn't filling any of those holes, so MJ is the only other perimeter guy, and those elite bigs we have. 2012-2013 Wade is less of a player than 2009-2010 Gasol, so it will be hard to win with him as FIRST option.. you'd have to find some all time guys to make that happen.


Wade was healthy in 2012.. and in 2011. And you just said you think he wouldnt win a title with melo and bosh as his second and third options.

Like saying Wade/Melo/Bosh would lose to the bulls.. you're basing that off melo not being able to replicate bron but not taking into consideration that Wade would have a lot more of the PnR ball handling responsibility and be more involved. That series was the Bron and Bosh show and wade sorta just took a backseat. If Bron's not there the whole dynamic changes.


Fk yea I would take Melo/Wade/Bosh + scrubs over the the team with the guy you claim to be one of the worst chokers ever.. leading a band of robot thib army rebounders and hustlers. The talent is absolutely overwhelming. And Melo would slide very nicely into the closer role while letting wade go in the flow. There would be no awkward bran and wade hot potatoing anymore. Just a 1-2, wade to start melo to finish.

This is why Kobetards are funny... because Wade sucked in the ECF "dude, give him more responsiblity and magically he will be good again"... its like dubeta saying Heat lost the 2011 finals because LeBron wasn't the man in that series.... 'Wade should have let him be the man and they win!'

you guys lost it... no one is replacing a top 3 playoff run of all time (except for MJ/Shaq)... but to hear names like Melo? Slap yourself.. Melo is a ballstopper ala Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

Wade was healthy in 2012.. and in 2011. And you just said you think he wouldnt win a title with melo and bosh as his second and third options.

Like saying Wade/Melo/Bosh would lose to the bulls.. you're basing that off melo not being able to replicate bron but not taking into consideration that Wade would have a lot more of the PnR ball handling responsibility and be more involved. That series was the Bron and Bosh show and wade sorta just took a backseat. If Bron's not there the whole dynamic changes.


Fk yea I would take Melo/Wade/Bosh + scrubs over the the team with the guy you claim to be one of the worst chokers ever.. leading a band of robot thib army rebounders and hustlers. The talent is absolutely overwhelming. And Melo would slide very nicely into the closer role while letting wade go in the flow. There would be no awkward bran and wade hot potatoing anymore. Just a 1-2, wade to start melo to finish.


I don't think Melo is very good. So that is skewing this.

I said they might lose to the Bulls...I certainly don't think they are beating the Mavs. Their defense with Melo in place of Lebron would have been an utter disaster...even with Lebron not guarding well...Melo makes Lebron look like KG on that end.

Wade wasn't fully healthy in 12 (he had that bad left knee)...and Bosh missed most of the Eastern playoffs. Why do you keep ignoring stuff like this? Do you just have a terrible memory or do you think people won't call you out on this shit.

Do I think Wade and Melo with no Bosh are beating the 12 Celtics in a series? **** no. Melo isn't good enough. That really a controversial opinion? A series that saw that Heat go down 2-3 despite Lebron playing great?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

pretty much.. I think we know Kobe isn't filling any of those holes, so MJ is the only other perimeter guy, and those elite bigs we have. 2012-2013 Wade is less of a player than 2009-2010 Gasol, so it will be hard to win with him as FIRST option.. you'd have to find some all time guys to make that happen.



This is why Kobetards are funny... because Wade sucked in the ECF "dude, give him more responsiblity and magically he will be good again"... its like dubeta saying Heat lost the 2011 finals because LeBron wasn't the man in that series.... 'Wade should have let him be the man and they win!'

you guys lost it... no one is replacing a top 3 playoff run of all time (except for MJ/Shaq)... but to hear names like Melo? Slap yourself.. Melo is a ballstopper ala Kobe.

Most people think at least 15-20 ATG's would have replicated similar success.

Bran bois think otherwise (yourself)... so why act like that's shocking? :oldlol:

[branslowski]

pretty much.. I think we know Kobe isn't filling any of those holes, so MJ is the only other perimeter guy, and those elite bigs we have. 2012-2013 Wade is less of a player than 2009-2010 Gasol, so it will be hard to win with him as FIRST option.. you'd have to find some all time guys to make that happen.



This is why Kobetards are funny... because Wade sucked in the ECF "dude, give him more responsiblity and magically he will be good again"... its like dubeta saying Heat lost the 2011 finals because LeBron wasn't the man in that series.... 'Wade should have let him be the man and they win!'

you guys lost it... no one is replacing a top 3 playoff run of all time (except for MJ/Shaq)... but to hear names like Melo? Slap yourself.. Melo is a ballstopper ala Kobe.

:biggums: I ain't never see a n!gga suck LeBron's d!ck the way this n!gga suck LeBron's d!ck, not never:biggums:

[SCdac]

There is just nothing that supports the Heat "got a lot better" around Lebron after 11.

Except for the fact that their team record improved and instead of losing in the playoffs they won multiple championships?...

Agree to disagree mate. We've disagree on this before and will probably continue to. It's cool

When the Heat added Birdman, among others like Ray "Jesus" Allen, they went on a tear because they were filling in the cracks and building confidence.

[ArbitraryWater]

Most people think at least 15-20 ATG's would have replicated similar success.

Bran bois think otherwise (yourself), so why act like that's shocking? :oldlol:

Is that the "consensus" do you take this so seriously? 3 people on a forum like Inside-Hoops filled with Kobe Kids? :lol

This is truly shocking: People are stupid.. I forgive you for it, in your prime you were a beast :cheers:

[ArbitraryWater]

Except for the fact that their team record improved and instead of losing in the playoffs they won multiple championships?...

Agree to disagree mate. We've disagree on this before and will probably continue to. It's cool

When the Heat added Birdman, among others like Ray "Jesus" Allen, they went on a tear because they were filling in the cracks and building confidence.

I don't think this is true...

2011 Heat were their most dominant version, 2 top 3 players?! Thats insane.. look at how much LeBron ****ed up in the finals and how close they came to winning, still

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Is that the "consensus" do you take this so seriously? 3 people on a forum like Inside-Hoops filled with Kobe Kids? :lol

This is truly shocking: People are stupid.. I forgive you for it, in your prime you were a beast :cheers:

But only a few LeBron fans think otherwise.

You need to get your eyes checked dude. There aren't just Kobe fans saying this.

I'm pretty sure even DMAVS has said a number of ATG's would've had success as well. :confusedshrug:

[dubeta]

Let us not forget Wade averaged 15 ppg on 44% and Bosh averaged 12 and 6 during the 2013 playoffs, role-player numbers


You would need an elite playmaker, defender and scorer to fill the gaps, hard to think of one other than LeBron

[tpols]

I don't think Melo is very good. So that is skewing this.

I said they might lose to the Bulls...I certainly don't think they are beating the Mavs.

Wade wasn't fully healthy in 12 (he had that bad left knee)...and Bosh missed most of the Eastern playoffs. Why do you keep ignoring stuff like this? Do you just have a terrible memory or do you think people won't call you out on this shit.

Do I think Wade and Melo with no Bosh are beating the 12 Celtics in a series? **** no. Melo isn't good enough. That really a controversial opinion? A series that saw that Heat go down 2-3 despite Lebron playing great?


You don't think Melo is very good ? What's that mean? As a first option leader type sure he has his issues. As a 25 ppg sniper working off a slashing wade his inpact would be at the very least 'very good' second option help any way you spin it. Then adding bosh too ? That's more help than most atg players ever get and wade wouldn't even be able to get them past the bulls?

:oldlol:


You're nuts for that one. Sorry for putting you on blast bro but it had to be done.

[DMAVS41]

Except for the fact that their team record improved and instead of losing in the playoffs they won multiple championships?...

Agree to disagree mate. We've disagree on this before and will probably continue to. It's cool

When the Heat added Birdman, among others like Ray "Jesus" Allen, they went on a tear because they were filling in the cracks and building confidence.

Yea...and if Wade/Bosh had been healthy in 13...that would have been their best team.

Unfortunately...you continue to ignore reality. And reality was that Wade/Bosh were awful in the 13 playoffs.

Hence why the 11 Heat were rated so much higher than the 13 Heat on that supporting cast study.

They won more games at times because of that...and you continue to ignore the first 20 games of 11. Those 20 games had no relevance at all. That was a team going through their growing pains.

You are talking minor differences, if any, based on that alone.

Yes, we will continue to disagree...the only difference is that I actually address your arguments.

You continue to evade.

[DMAVS41]

You don't think Melo is very good ? What's that mean? As a first option leader type sure he has his issues. As a 25 ppg sniper working off a slashing wade his inpact would be at the very least 'very good' second option help any way you spin it. Then adding bosh too ? That's more help than most atg players ever get and wade wouldn't even be able to get them past the bulls?

:oldlol:


You're nuts for that one. Sorry for putting you on blast bro but it had to be done.


It's not a lock they get by the 11 Bulls. Put me on blast? What? I just ethered you in my post.

You didn't even know Bosh and Wade weren't right in the 12 playoffs.

I said I'm not sure they beat the Bulls. What the **** are the Heat doing on defense? Do you realize how bad a fit Melo would be defensively on that Heat defensive scheme??????

It's like a 50/50 series....shit, it was close even with Lebron playing great on both ends.

You make it sound like I'm saying they had no chance to beat the Bulls. I'm saying it would have been an "in doubt" series. Which it just would have.

[dubeta]

You don't think Melo is very good ? What's that mean? As a first option leader type sure he has his issues. As a 25 ppg sniper working off a slashing wade his inpact would be at the very least 'very good' second option help any way you spin it. Then adding bosh too ? That's more help than most atg players ever get and wade wouldn't even be able to get them past the bulls?

:oldlol:


You're nuts for that one. Sorry for putting you on blast bro but it had to be done.

The Bulls had the best record in the league for a reason..


That's like saying it should be easy to beat the 'no star' Spurs in 2014 with Melo

Great coaching + Defense + MVP Rose >>>> Melo

[catch24]

Kobe, KD, Melo (for 1 year?) -- any other perimeter players of this generation?

[branslowski]

Let us not forget Wade averaged 15 ppg on 44% and Bosh averaged 12 and 6 during the 2013 playoffs, role-player numbers


You would need an elite playmaker, defender and scorer to fill the gaps, hard to think of one other than LeBron

One thing I take away from this inwhich you all seem to turn a blind-eye to, is the fact that LeBron makes Superstar players worse due to his ball dominant "I want all dee stats" type of play. Here's a Bosh who's use to scoring in the post, and he's turned into a spot up shooter who gets the ball when the shotclock is low, and then there's Love who has already had his agent openly complain about LeBron's ball dominant ways, thus a drop in Love's numbers.

So at the end of the day, blaming these star players because of their perfomance with LeBron is an unfair notion. These players are use to having control, LeBron then takes it, and that can mentally effect you as a player. LeBron wouldn't even allow these players to get into a rythm because the only way he truly wants them to score is from an assist dished out by yours truly LeBron "2/6" James.

[SouBeachTalents]

2011 I think any top tier player wins that season, Wade was still a top 3-5 player in the league with an argument for best in the world, while Bosh was still a top 15 player, top 20 at worst.

Honestly though, the 2012-2014 cast gets overrated. Bosh missed half the playoffs in 2012, and in 2013 they both honestly stunk until Wade stepped up at the end of the Finals. In 2014 they were average/decent until the Finals where they then both played terribly and were complete non-factors.

So I think your chances for a title get worse every year, from an extremely strong chance in 2011 to a very slim chance in 2014

[DMAVS41]

One thing I take away from this inwhich you all seem to turn a blind-eye to, is the fact that LeBron makes Superstar players worse due to his ball dominant "I want all dee stats" type of play. Here's a Bosh who's use to scoring in the post, and he's turned into a spot up shooter who gets the ball when the shotclock is low, and then there's Love who has already had his agent openly complain about LeBron's ball dominant ways, thus a drop in Love's numbers.

So at the end of the day, blaming these star players because of their perfomance with LeBron is an unfair notion. These players are use to having control, LeBron then takes it, and that can mentally effect you as a player. LeBron wouldn't even allow these players to get into a rythm because the only way he truly wants them to score is from an assist dished out by yours truly LeBron "2/6" James.

Yes, to a certain degree, but that really wasn't what was going on in 13 and 14. Wade just wasn't healthy and Bosh was so bad defensively at times he couldn't see the court.

You just are blind if you think Bosh/Wade in 13/14 was somehow a different tier of help than Pau/Odom in 09/10.

[branslowski]

Yes, to a certain degree, but that really wasn't what was going on in 13 and 14. Wade just wasn't healthy and Bosh was so bad defensively at times he couldn't see the court.

You just are blind if you think Bosh/Wade in 13/14 was somehow a different tier of help than Pau/Odom in 09/10.

Bosh never was a great defender though, but he would have been more effective as a 20-10 type post player than been a spot up shooter for LeBron.

Your second post fits what I'm saying, Kobe makes good players great, LeBron makes Great players, good.

Bosh>>Odom any year before he started playing with Bron

Wade>>Gasol any year before he started playing with Bron.

[DMAVS41]

2011 I think any top tier player wins that season, Wade was still a top 3-5 player in the league with an argument for best in the world, while Bosh was still a top 15 player, top 20 at worst.

Honestly though, the 2012-2014 cast gets overrated. Bosh missed half the playoffs in 2012, and in 2013 they both honestly stunk until Wade stepped up at the end of the Finals. In 2014 they were average/decent until the Finals where they then both played terribly and were complete non-factors.

So I think your chances for a title get worse every year, from an extremely strong chance in 2011 to a very slim chance in 2014

This. This. This.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

2011 I think any top tier player wins that season, Wade was still a top 3-5 player in the league with an argument for best in the world, while Bosh was still a top 15 player, top 20 at worst.

Honestly though, the 2012-2014 cast gets overrated. Bosh missed half the playoffs in 2012, and in 2013 they both honestly stunk until Wade stepped up at the end of the Finals. In 2014 they were average/decent until the Finals where they then both played terribly and were complete non-factors.

So I think your chances for a title get worse every year, from an extremely strong chance in 2011 to a very slim chance in 2014

Ditto

As I said, ithe ONLY players I really see drawing that success in today's game, would be Kobe and Durant.

Nothing is guaranteed, but I'm confident they could win 2 chips each - one of them being in 2011.

[DMAVS41]

Bosh never was a great defender though, but he would have been more effective as a 20-10 type post player than been a spot up shooter for LeBron.

Your second post fits what I'm saying, Kobe makes good players great, LeBron makes Great players, good.

Bosh>>Odom any year before he started playing with Bron

Wade>>Gasol any year before he started playing with Bron.


Dude.

You continue to ignore that Wade/Bosh weren't right in 13/14.

I agree that Lebron is more limited in the style he can play and remain playing at his optimal level...than Kobe can.

What I don't agree with is you acting like Lebron caused 13/14. He didn't.

Also, Wade/Bosh played just fine on the court in the playoffs with Lebron in 11 and 12 when they were healthy. Yes, there was a dip in production, but that is going to happen when you add any great to a team.

You put Kobe next to Wade and Bosh and they are going to see a dip in production...specifically Bosh. Do you actually deny this?

You think Bosh is gonna average 24/10 next to Wade and Kobe on the same team?

[sd3035]

Durant would have easily had 4 rings with that stacked team and ref help

[Legends66NBA7]

The thing with hypotheticals like this are that some of the roster would changes would be needed if you had guys like Kobe or Jordan on the team or Gasol or Aldridge, etc... I agree that a ATG center would probably be the best investment on this Heat team because that's one area they lacked, rebounding and interior offense/defense.

[tpols]

It's not a lock they get by the 11 Bulls. Put me on blast? What? I just ethered you in my post.

You didn't even know Bosh and Wade weren't right in the 12 playoffs.

I said I'm not sure they beat the Bulls. What the **** are the Heat doing on defense? Do you realize how bad a fit Melo would be defensively on that Heat defensive scheme??????

It's like a 50/50 series....shit, it was close even with Lebron playing great on both ends.

You make it sound like I'm saying they had no chance to beat the Bulls. I'm saying it would have been an "in doubt" series. Which it just would have.


The heat had the 6th best defense in the league the year before bran joined them. Spo was a defensive coach and his schemes had Miami as an elite defense without Lebron altogether

Not only that but 'defending' those bulls teams was never a problem. They were a one man band on offense. You're acting like they would be defending the showtime lakers . :lol

Ive been saving this one up for you.





L. :D

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This thread has sparked some good discussions. Nice topic, catch.

:cheers:

[Indian guy]

There's some bizarre criticism of LeBron in this thread. Volume is bound to go down when star players get together. Why would have anyone expected Wade and Bosh's numbers to be the same as prior seasons? But in their respective roles, I frankly don't understand what more one could have possibly asked for. Wade averaged 22 ppg on 52% shooting from 11-14. Those are ideal 2nd option numbers. Bosh averaged 17 ppg on 51% shooting. About as good as you can expect from a 3rd option. Find me another championship-level team from 90's onwards whose 2nd/3rd options were producing those numbers for even 1 season, much less for a 4 year span. And remember, Miami was also an elite offense all 4 seasons, ranking top 5 in 3 of those 4 years.

[DMAVS41]

The heat had the 6th best defense in the league the year before bran joined them. Spo was a defensive coach and his schemes had Miami as an elite defense without Lebron altogether

Not only that but 'defending' those bulls teams was never a problem. They were a one man band on offense. You're acting like they would be defending the showtime lakers . :lol

Ive been saving this one up for you.





L. :D


I'm curious...was Melo on those previous Heat teams? News to me if he was.

Again...I'm not saying they lose for sure. I'm saying it would be a toss up series.

I'm assuming you'll admit that Lebron is a much better player than Melo. Right?

Now...the Bulls won game 1 easily and then the remaining 4 games were extremely close late in the 4th qtrs.

Not only can Melo not switch over and guard Rose like Lebron did, but he's just an overall much worse basketball player.

Wade had his hands full in that series and hardly played his best basketball.

The fact that you think it's just a lock is absurd.

Saving what?

Go back to not knowing Bosh/Wade were hurt in 12 and thinking 08 Tony Allen was similar to Iggy.

Take the L...please. I don't want to waste time responding to your nonsense about how replacing one of the best players of all time while he's playing great with that clown Melo doesn't move the needle...again "perhaps" in a series already going down to the wire each game.

[Rocketswin2013]

Well balanced team who were great for their time. Win streaks... Finals appearances... Championships... Hypothetically speaking, if you were to replace LeBron, which superstar players (historically) would've also made 4 Finals appearances and win at least 2 championships?
I wouldn't call them balanced in any sense. They couldn't protect the rim or rebound, and had two and a half playmakers.

[DMAVS41]

There's some bizarre criticism of LeBron in this thread. Volume is bound to go down when star players get together. Why would have anyone expected Wade and Bosh's numbers to be the same as prior seasons? But in their respective roles, I frankly don't understand what more one could have possibly asked for. Wade averaged 22 ppg on 52% shooting from 11-14. Those are ideal 2nd option numbers. Bosh averaged 17 ppg on 51% shooting. About as good as you can expect from a 3rd option. Find me another championship team whose 2nd/3rd options were producing those numbers during a 4 year span. And remember, Miami was also an elite offense all 4 seasons, ranking top 5 in 3 of those 4 years.


I agree about the production dipping. You put 3 players like that together and it's impossible for their production individually to not dip...I don't get that criticism at all.

I think those numbers you posted are front loaded though.

Wade was a 16/5/5 player in 13
Wade was a 18/4/4 player in 14

Bosh was a 12/7/2 player in 13
Bosh was a 15/6/1 player in 14

But again, those two years...Wade and Bosh were injured and not right. Nothing changed about Lebron...it was that Wade and Bosh weren't nearly as good as they were in the 11 and 12 playoffs.

I don't know why people can't agree on this. It's the most obvious thing ever.

[tpols]

Il
Take the L...please. I don't want to waste time responding to your nonsense about how replacing one of the best players of all time while he's playing great with that clown Melo doesn't move the needle...again "perhaps" in a series already going down to the wire each game.

You say this this this to a post saying any star player would've won in 2011 a few posts up.. yet a page earlier you say they wouldn't even make the finals. You're flip flopping Hella hard in here man.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I agree about the production dipping. You put 3 players like that together and it's impossible for their production individually to not dip...I don't get that criticism at all.

I think those numbers you posted are front loaded though.

Wade was a 16/5/5 player in 13
Wade was a 18/4/4 player in 14

Bosh was a 12/7/2 player in 13
Bosh was a 15/6/1 player in 14

But again, those two years...Wade and Bosh were injured and not right. Nothing changed about Lebron...it was that Wade and Bosh weren't nearly as good as they were in the 11 and 12 playoffs.

I don't know why people can't agree on this. It's the most obvious thing ever.

About Wade.. you cannot ignore him LITERALLY giving LeBron reigns to the offense.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/15/wade-admits-he-took-a-step-back-so-lebron-could-lead-heat/
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/7929717/nba-playoffs-wade-huge-sacrifice-lebron

I think injuries played a part, but so did his sacrifice. Something that was pretty big news when he said it, and why his numbers dropped a bit, every year after 2011.

[Indian guy]

I think those numbers you posted are front loaded though.

I only posted their regular season numbers. Much bigger sample size and more reflective of how the Big 3 fared playing alongside each other. Obviously, Wade was rarely ever healthy in the playoffs from 12-14, and for whatever reason, Bosh completely sh!t the bed in '13. But when healthy, those 3 did just fine together and Miami always managed to be of the best offenses in the league.

[DMAVS41]

You say this this this to a post saying any star player would've won in 2011 a few posts up.. yet a page earlier you say they wouldn't even make the finals. You're flip flopping Hella hard in here man.

Nope.

I said any top 15 or so GOAT type player wins for sure.

I don't view Melo remotely in that same way.

And I'm saying it's possible they don't make the finals in 11.

Why is this hard to understand?

[Legends66NBA7]

I agree about the production dipping. You put 3 players like that together and it's impossible for their production individually to not dip...I don't get that criticism at all.

I think those numbers you posted are front loaded though.

Wade was a 16/5/5 player in 13
Wade was a 18/4/4 player in 14

Bosh was a 12/7/2 player in 13
Bosh was a 15/6/1 player in 14

But again, those two years...Wade and Bosh were injured and not right. Nothing changed about Lebron...it was that Wade and Bosh weren't nearly as good as they were in the 11 and 12 playoffs.

I don't know why people can't agree on this. It's the most obvious thing ever.

Bosh was hurt and missed games in the 12 playoffs too. LeBron really had an amazing run that year, easily his best overall run outside of perhaps his 09 run. That 12 season if the Heat has the same health issues, it would take a really legendary player for them to win that season.

[DMAVS41]

About Wade.. you cannot ignore him LITERALLY giving LeBron reigns to the offense.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/15/wade-admits-he-took-a-step-back-so-lebron-could-lead-heat/
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/7929717/nba-playoffs-wade-huge-sacrifice-lebron

I think injuries played a part, but so did his sacrifice. Something that was pretty big news when he said it, and why his numbers dropped a bit, every year after 2011.


Yea, but look at his production in 12 though....he had talked about that in 12...

23/5/4 in the playoffs.

I'm not ignoring it completely. Lebron ball is a style that simply isn't ideal for other superstars.

However, Lebron and Wade and Bosh could play very well together when they were all healthy...they figured it out.

Wade was just a shell in the 13/14 playoffs.

It's why the talent rating of the 11/12 Heat was so much higher than the 13/14 Heat.

[tpols]

Nope.

I said any top 15 or so GOAT type player wins for sure.

I don't view Melo remotely in that same way.

And I'm saying it's possible they don't make the finals in 11.

Why is this hard to understand?

You cray.

[DMAVS41]

I only posted their regular season numbers. Much bigger sample size and more reflective of how the Big 3 fared playing alongside each other. Obviously, Wade was rarely ever healthy in the playoffs from 12-14, and for whatever reason, Bosh completely sh!t the bed in '13. But when healthy, those 3 did just fine together and Miami always managed to be of the best offenses in the league.

Oh yes...agreed.

People are making too big of a deal out of the dip in productions. It's gonna happen even with Magic Johnson playing.

I do also agree that Lebron ball is not optimal for other star players and that Lebron can really only play on the ball offensively at an elite level, but Wade/Bosh/Lebron figured it out enough that it wasn't a big deal when they were healthy.

[DMAVS41]

You cray.

Great argument.

Do you really think there is a contradiction in me saying that top 15 players of all time win in 11...but I'm not sure about Melo?

Like...really?

That is what you are coming with?

Take the L

[branslowski]

Dude.


You put Kobe next to Wade and Bosh and they are going to see a dip in production...specifically Bosh. Do you actually deny this?

You think Bosh is gonna average 24/10 next to Wade and Kobe on the same team?

You put Bosh with Kobe and the same happens with him that happened with Gasol...Yes Kobe shoots alot, but he also gives the ball to players in position to do their own scoring, not just for a assist stat. Bosh with Kobe would still be a player who gets the ball in his hands in good spots....Bosh would still avg 19-20ppg 9-10reb with Kobe any year...Then you all would be sitting here calling Bosh a All-Time great who carried Kobe to 2 imaginary Finals MVP's.

LeBron took Bosh's and Wade's WILL to play. LeBron's play is like a negative vortex, and it only works with role players, who will then ofcource get blamed when LeBron loses because they aren't stars, yet Bron makes stars worse:

LeBron plays with Role players- Fits LeBron's stat rampage. But when what fits LeBron's game (players who play defense and rebound aswell as shoot) doesn't work then its "He needs better players.

LeBron plays with star players- Worse numbers and makes star player worse, takes away star players will to play basketball, which can not only effect your best qualities, but can take away any quality you try to produce.

Talk about pick your poison.

[tpols]

Great argument.

Do you really think there is a contradiction in me saying that top 15 players of all time win in 11...but I'm not sure about Melo?

Like...really?

That is what you are coming with?

Take the L

Alrite man, but it's heavy and you're gonna have to drop it off from the last time I gave it to you.I'm not picking that shit up again.

[DMAVS41]

You put Bosh with Kobe and the same happens with him that happened with Gasol...Yes Kobe shoots alot, but he also gives the ball to players in position to do their own scoring, not just for a assist stat. Bosh with Kobe would still be a player who gets the ball in his hands in good spots....Bosh would still avg 19-20ppg 9-10reb with Kobe any year...Then you all would be sitting here calling Bosh a All-Time great who carried Kobe to 2 imaginary Finals MVP's.

LeBron took Bosh's and Wade's WILL to play. LeBron's play is like a negative vortex, and it only works with role players, who will then ofcource get blamed when LeBron loses because they aren't stars, yet Bron makes stars worse:

LeBron plays with Role players- Fits LeBron's stat rampage. But when what fits LeBron's game (players who play defense and rebound aswell as shoot) doesn't work then its "He needs better players.

LeBron plays with star players- Worse numbers and makes star player worse, takes away star players will to play basketball, which can not only effect your best qualities, but can take away any quality you try to produce.

Talk about pick your poison.


??????

It isn't about putting Lebron or Kobe with just Bosh. You have to also include Wade.

What do you think the production would be like on a team of Kobe/Wade/Bosh?

Do you really think it's gonna be much different than it was for the Heat in 11 and 12 when they were healthy and Wade was still in his prime?

Also, this narrative about Lebron ball (and I agree with it...just to a much more reasonable and accurate degree than you are claiming) is kind of getting killed.

Kyrie and Lebron were fantastic complements to each other this year.

The thing that makes pairing Wade with Lebron tough...is that neither could shot from range consistently...so on offense the pairing never could really be as great as the two players individually would make you think.

But Lebron and Kyrie, for example, meh....they were great together all year...not like Kyrie took a hit in production. In fact, Kyrie got better. Love didn't, but again, a guy going from 1st option on shitty team to 3rd option on great team is going to dip.

[DMAVS41]

Alrite man, but it's heavy and you're gonna have to drop it off from the last time I gave it to you.I'm not picking that shit up again.

I never took it.

I'll take it when I'm out argued or I'm just wrong (happens plenty of times)...here are two of my latest L's:

-Totally wrong about the Klay for Love trade
-Totally wrong about TT...aka Christian Thompson

[branslowski]

Alrite man, but it's heavy and you're gonna have to drop it off from the last time I gave it to you.I'm not picking that shit up again.

Arguing with Dmavs=

Arguing with a self loathing moron over the color of the sky...You know it's blue but he say's it's green, he even gives dumb farm animal stats on why the sky LOOKS green, yet you argue back and own him with facts on why it's blue but you make a mistake,....You mention something about the ocean and then all of a sudden he ignores the first topic and point at hand inwhich he knows he's wrong and cherry picks a fact about the ocean...He then bates you into a ocean debate which last 4 hours with the topic being "What percentage of Sharks swim within 200 meters of land" inwhich he will use some RAMP stats...Yet your sitting back saying "Wait, how dafuq did I get here???"...

[DMAVS41]

Arguing with Dmavs=

Arguing with a self loathing moron over the color of the sky...You know it's blue but he say's it's green, he even gives dumb far animal stats on why the sky LOOKS green, yet you argue back and own him with facts on why it's blue but you make a mistake,....You mention something about the ocean and then all of a sudden he ignores the first topic and point at hand inwhich he knows he's wrong and cherry picks a fact about the ocean...He then bates you into a ocean debate which last 4 hours with the topic being "What percentage of Sharks swim within 200 meters of land" inwhich he will use some RAMP stats...Yet your sitting back saying "Wait, how dafuq did I get here???"...


You don't "know" anything....

Because you are too agenda driven to see the sky.

You don't even know what you are saying half the time.

Notice the ad hominem instead of real arguments you two clowns resort to.

Still waiting to hear how Wade and Bosh don't dip in production playing with Kobe....

[tpols]

I never took it.

I'll take it when I'm out argued or I'm just wrong (happens plenty of times)...here are two of my latest L's:

-Totally wrong about the Klay for Love trade
-Totally wrong about TT...aka Christian Thompson

Yea that's the one I'm talking about. I gave it to you a few weeks ago. :pimp:



Just leave it outside by the trash cans in front of my house.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Arguing with Dmavs=

Arguing with a self loathing moron over the color of the sky...You know it's blue but he say's it's green, he even gives dumb farm animal stats on why the sky LOOKS green, yet you argue back and own him with facts on why it's blue but you make a mistake,....You mention something about the ocean and then all of a sudden he ignores the first topic and point at hand inwhich he knows he's wrong and cherry picks a fact about the ocean...He then bates you into a ocean debate which last 4 hours with the topic being "What percentage of Sharks swim within 200 meters of land" inwhich he will use some RAMP stats...Yet your sitting back saying "Wait, how dafuq did I get here???"...

LMFAO

[DMAVS41]

Yea that's the one I'm talking about. I gave it to you a few weeks ago. :pimp:



Just leave it outside by the trash cans in front of my house.

No...that wasn't from you. And please...you don't have a house.

I just didn't think TT could be that good of a player next to Love...playing center. Argued with RBA about it some this year and in the past. He was right and I was wrong.

You talking about the stuff in the finals? Oh god no...you and PG took huge L's there.

Wait...do you actually still think the Cavs were better off without Irving and Love in that series? Please tell me you've come down off that....

[ArbitraryWater]

About Wade.. you cannot ignore him LITERALLY giving LeBron reigns to the offense.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/15/wade-admits-he-took-a-step-back-so-lebron-could-lead-heat/
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/id/7929717/nba-playoffs-wade-huge-sacrifice-lebron

I think injuries played a part, but so did his sacrifice. Something that was pretty big news when he said it, and why his numbers dropped a bit, every year after 2011.

Guess why he gave him the reigns.. lol you're babying Wade hard, thats an easy choice for him to make :lol

Miss 58 games from 2012-2014 "but he took a step back for LeBron"

https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/barkley-head-shake-o.gif

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Guess why he gave him the reigns.. literally.. lol you're babying Wade hard, thats an easy choice to make for him :lol

Miss 58 games from 2012-2014 "but he took a step back for LeBron"

https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/barkley-head-shake-o.gif

Hmmm. I don't think you read my post properly. Take a step back, relax, and read again. You can clearly see I mentioned injuries played a part.

Wade in 2012 didn't regress like circa 2013 and 2014, so when he talked about "sacrifice", it actually had some merit.

[branslowski]

??????

It isn't about putting Lebron or Kobe with just Bosh. You have to also include Wade.

What do you think the production would be like on a team of Kobe/Wade/Bosh?

Do you really think it's gonna be much different than it was for the Heat in 11 and 12 when they were healthy and Wade was still in his prime?

Also, this narrative about Lebron ball (and I agree with it...just to a much more reasonable and accurate degree than you are claiming) is kind of getting killed.

Kyrie and Lebron were fantastic complements to each other this year.

The thing that makes pairing Wade with Lebron tough...is that neither could shot from range consistently...so on offense the pairing never could really be as great as the two players individually would make you think.

But Lebron and Kyrie, for example, meh....they were great together all year...not like Kyrie took a hit in production. In fact, Kyrie got better. Love didn't, but again, a guy going from 1st option on shitty team to 3rd option on great team is going to dip.

Well you didn't really disclaim my point. Also, Kyrie can be an exception out of Love, Wade, Bosh..That's cool, the point still stands. Bosh and Wade were more mentally hurt than physical. You could see it on the court. That's the real difference between watching games and looking at stats.

Imagine being Wade and Bosh and seeing ESPN call your team the Miami Cavaliers?? Yet knowing the true reason behind your demise is this little thing called "LeBron james Stat pad Ball"?...Has to kill any players mindset.

Analogy: Let's say your with a girl who gives you head EVERYDAY...And you love getting head so it makes you perform like a champ, your not only blowin her back out, your're kissing her lips, her neck, tongue around her nipple licking slowly down to her pelvis inwhich you then give her the greatest oral exam she ever had thus makes a All-Time great night.

VS

Analogy: Let's say your with a girl who gives 0 head? Head is your favorite thing and it drives you but your not getting it...thus your kissing her on the lips is less passionate, the neck lick last for 6 sec, you kiss her breast down to her pelvic in under 4 kisses, you slightly eat her pusse the way anyone wants a 3rd serving during thankgiving vs being a homeless man eating his first meal in 2 weeks..You also f*ck her for a quick nut other than enjoying the moment...

Do you understand Dmavs?? Do you?

[DMAVS41]

Hmmm. I don't think you read my post properly. Take a step back, relax, and read again. You can clearly see I mentioned injuries played a part.

Wade in 2012 didn't regress like circa 2013 and 2014, so when he talked about "sacrifice", it actually had some merit.

Right.

And you'd agree that his dip in production/play in 12 was indicative of that step back while his play in 13/14 was largely his injuries and age...right?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Right.

And you'd agree that his dip in production/play in 12 was indicative of that step back while his play in 13/14 was largely his injuries and age...right?

A bit of both TBH, but injuries were a larger problem in the grand scheme. Of course.

[DMAVS41]

Well you didn't really disclaim my point. Also, Kyrie can be an exception out of Love, Wade, Bosh..That's cool, the point still stands. Bosh and Wade were more mentally hurt than physical. You could see it on the court. That's the real difference between watching games and looking at stats.

Imagine being Wade and Bosh and seeing ESPN call your team the Miami Cavaliers?? Yet knowing the true reason behind your demise is this little thing called "LeBron james Stat pad Ball"?...Has to kill any players mindset.

Analogy: Let's say your with a girl who gives you head EVERYDAY...And you love getting head so it makes you perform like a champ, your not only blowin her back out, your're kissing her lips, her neck, tongue around her nipple licking slowly down to her pelvis inwhich you then give her the greatest oral exam she ever had thus makes a All-Time great night.

VS

Analogy: Let's say your with a girl who gives 0 head? Head is your favorite thing and it drives you but your not getting it...thus your kissing her on the lips is less passionate, the neck lick last for 6 sec, you kiss her breast down to her pelvic in under 4 kisses, you slightly eat her pusse the way anyone wants a 3rd serving during thankgiving vs being a homeless man eating his first meal in 2 weeks..You also f*ck her for a quick nut other than enjoying the moment...

Do you understand Dmavs?? Do you?


LOL...great last paragraph.

No, I don't agree at all. We saw what those guys could do together on the court in 11 and 12 when they were all healthy and right.

They were great together.

I do agree that Lebron's style isn't optimal with other superstars, but I have said this for years and have repeated as such in this thread.

Where we disagree is about this non sense about Lebron taking away their "will" to play.

They were called the Miami Cavaliers in 13 and 14 in the playoffs because of how bad they were.

They weren't call that in 11 when Wade/Bosh were playing great.

[branslowski]

LOL...great last paragraph.

No, I don't agree at all. We saw what those guys could do together on the court in 11 and 12 when they were all healthy and right.

They were great together.

I do agree that Lebron's style isn't optimal with other superstars, but I have said this for years and have repeated as such in this thread.

Where we disagree is about this non sense about Lebron taking away their "will" to play.

They were called the Miami Cavaliers in 13 and 14 in the playoffs because of how bad they were.

They weren't call that in 11 when Wade/Bosh were playing great.

You miss an important factor.....LEBRON. Yes they played great in 2011 and what happened with LeBron?? He noticed that yes the Heat could beat the Mavs, but the only way to beat the Mavs is to let Wade and Bosh play good making it a TEAM win and a debate over Finals MVP inwhich Wade would win, so being LeBron, you check out....You see, they play how a team of superstars is suppose to, but at the end of the day, Bron don't wanna split the pot 33/33/33(give 1 to charity)....Bron wanna split 50/25/25 which is what happened in the following years....So you splitt 50/25/25, you gonna get 25 production, which is lower than 33...Do you understand now?

[DMAVS41]

You miss an important factor.....LEBRON. Yes they played great in 2011 and what happened with LeBron?? He noticed that yes the Heat could beat the Mavs, but the only way to beat the Mavs is to let Wade and Bosh play good making it a TEAM win and a debate over Finals MVP inwhich Wade would win, so being LeBron, you check out....You see, they play how a team of superstars is suppose to, but at the end of the day, Bron don't wanna split the pot 33/33/33(give 1 to charity)....Bron wanna split 50/25/25 which is what happened in the following years....So you splitt 50/25/25, you gonna get 25 production, which is lower than 33...Do you understand now?

LOL...

I understand your point, always have, I just disagree with it.

I don't think Lebron lost on purpose and couldn't handle Wade being "Batman"

Don't you guys always call Lebron a "beta"??? To me, if anything, it looked like Lebron deferred too much in 11 in favor to the "alpha" Wade.

[branslowski]

LOL...

I understand your point, always have, I just disagree with it.

I don't think Lebron lost on purpose and couldn't handle Wade being "Batman"

Don't you guys always call Lebron a "beta"??? To me, if anything, it looked like Lebron deferred too much in 11 in favor to the "alpha" Wade.

Naw bro, LeBron just standing in a corner letting sh!t go down? Passing the ball away when JJ Barea is on him?...LeBron's one of the Greatest Players in NBA History and there's no such thing as Aliens who still powers....So, you really believe my explanation makes no sense? If Bron continued playing the way he could while sharing 33/33/33 the Heat win that title. But when LeBron saw he was gonna win playing Team STAT ball he said f*ck it.

At the end of the day, LeBron letting players play to their potential can not happen for LeBron's sake. Cause if it does, then LeBron cant get the sole credit.

This past finals loss doesn't haunt LeBron cause he almost got what he wanted...No star players to share stats and they won multiple games...He avg the Numbers he wanted that will trick anyone who doesn't watch games objectively. You see the Stats 35ppg 12reb 8ast...God stats son...But what you wont see is his fg% outside 5ft from the paint and the fact that he was played with 1 on 1 defense on the perimeter, something Kobe or Jordan would ever see cause opponents know, you give Kobe and Jordan what you gave LEbron and those 2 avg 40ppg+...This is truth Dmavs.

[Papaya Petee]

Wades production after 2011 is not as bad as you guys make it seem.

Some of you saying Wade was already broken down in 2012.
22/5/5 regular season
23/5/4 playoffs
23/6/5 Finals.

Not to mention, that Wade's playoff numbers were dipped because the Heat completely blew out the Knicks, which limited his minutes, shots, and necessity to shoot. If that series was closer Wades averaging 22-24 in that series not 19 PPG. He didn't have a single weak game that series and wasn't neccessary to produce more.

If you looked at the playoffs #s and saw 24/5/5 or 25/5/4 you would immediatly say he played like a superstar was just a 2nd option. The difference being 1-2 PPG. Mostly due to the Knicks series.

Vs Indiana aside from the disasterous 5 point game, Wade was spectacular with Bosh out. 26/6/3 as a second option. Down 1-2 at Indiana a 30/9/6 game. 28 points in a blowout game 5. 41/10/3/2 in game 6 on the road to close out the Pacers.


In the ECF vs the Celtics for the first 5 games Wade was trapped and doubled on any pick and roll. Doc Rivers chose to double and trap Wade after seeing Wade destroy Indiana in the last 3 games. Yet Wade still had a 22/5/5 series which is great for a "broken down second option"
17 point game 6 was his weakest game that series with Miami blowing out Boston due to Lebrons legendary game.


23/6/5 in the finals. Aside from the 19 point game in game 1 (weakest game of the finals) he had 24,25,25,20 point games. As a second option once again "broken down" he was very consistent.

2013 Wade averages 21/5/5/1/1 on 51% shooting in the regular season, and was amazing during the win streak.
Obviously he was very injured during the playoffs, but in the first 2 rounds once again his production, shots, and minutes weren't required as the Heat steamrolled through the Bucks and Bulls.

He was very poor in the 2013 ECF, but finished strong with a 20/5/4 NBA Finals when needed the most. 32/6/4 in a must win game 4, 25/10 in game 5 and 23/10 in a closeout game 7.

2014 Wade averaged 19/5/5 on 54% FG which are still strong 2nd option #s. He wasn't really injured as much, the Heat coaching stuff just assigned him the most retarded resting schedule ever, which made him out of shape.

Aside from the finals, where he was disasterous, he had a good run for the first 3 rounds.

Was at about 20/5/4 for the first 3 rounds. Once again numbers lowered by the Charlotte series where Wades production wasn't neccessary as the Bobcats got easily swept. He had a strong ECF and a strong 2nd round.

Was he injured? Yes. Was the 2013 playoff horrendous until the finals? Yes. But 2012 he was still a borderline superstar, and a top 10 player in 2013 regular season.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wades production after 2011 is not as bad as you guys make it seem.

Some of you saying Wade was already broken down in 2012.
22/5/5 regular season
23/5/4 playoffs
23/6/5 Finals.

Not to mention, that Wade's playoff numbers were dipped because the Heat completely blew out the Knicks, which limited his minutes, shots, and necessity to shoot. If that series was closer Wades averaging 22-24 in that series not 19 PPG. He didn't have a single weak game that series and wasn't neccessary to produce more.

If you looked at the playoffs #s and saw 24/5/5 or 25/5/4 you would immediatly say he played like a superstar was just a 2nd option. The difference being 1-2 PPG. Mostly due to the Knicks series.

Vs Indiana aside from the disasterous 5 point game, Wade was spectacular with Bosh out. 26/6/3 as a second option. Down 1-2 at Indiana a 30/9/6 game. 28 points in a blowout game 5. 41/10/3/2 in game 6 on the road to close out the Pacers.


In the ECF vs the Celtics for the first 5 games Wade was trapped and doubled on any pick and roll. Doc Rivers chose to double and trap Wade after seeing Wade destroy Indiana in the last 3 games. Yet Wade still had a 22/5/5 series which is great for a "broken down second option"
17 point game 6 was his weakest game that series with Miami blowing out Boston due to Lebrons legendary game.


23/6/5 in the finals. Aside from the 19 point game in game 1 (weakest game of the finals) he had 24,25,25,20 point games. As a second option once again "broken down" he was very consistent.

2013 Wade averages 21/5/5/1/1 on 51% shooting in the regular season, and was amazing during the win streak.
Obviously he was very injured during the playoffs, but in the first 2 rounds once again his production, shots, and minutes weren't required as the Heat steamrolled through the Bucks and Bulls.

He was very poor in the 2013 ECF, but finished strong with a 20/5/4 NBA Finals when needed the most. 32/6/4 in a must win game 4, 25/10 in game 5 and 23/10 in a closeout game 7.

2014 Wade averaged 19/5/5 on 54% FG which are still strong 2nd option #s. He wasn't really injured as much, the Heat coaching stuff just assigned him the most retarded resting schedule ever, which made him out of shape.

Aside from the finals, where he was disasterous, he had a good run for the first 3 rounds.

Was at about 20/5/4 for the first 3 rounds. Once again numbers lowered by the Charlotte series where Wades production wasn't neccessary as the Bobcats got easily swept. He had a strong ECF and a strong 2nd round.

Was he injured? Yes. Was the 2013 playoff horrendous until the finals? Yes. But 2012 he was still a borderline superstar, and a top 10 player in 2013 regular season.

Wade was still a top 10 player in the league imo in 2012 and the 2013 regular season. That 27 game winning streak was the last semblance we really saw of a consistently dominant Wade

[Hey Yo]

You put Bosh with Kobe and the same happens with him that happened with Gasol...Yes Kobe shoots alot, but he also gives the ball to players in position to do their own scoring, not just for a assist stat. Bosh with Kobe would still be a player who gets the ball in his hands in good spots....Bosh would still avg 19-20ppg 9-10reb with Kobe any year...Then you all would be sitting here calling Bosh a All-Time great who carried Kobe to 2 imaginary Finals MVP's.

LeBron took Bosh's and Wade's WILL to play. LeBron's play is like a negative vortex, and it only works with role players, who will then ofcource get blamed when LeBron loses because they aren't stars, yet Bron makes stars worse:

LeBron plays with Role players- Fits LeBron's stat rampage. But when what fits LeBron's game (players who play defense and rebound aswell as shoot) doesn't work then its "He needs better players.

LeBron plays with star players- Worse numbers and makes star player worse, takes away star players will to play basketball, which can not only effect your best qualities, but can take away any quality you try to produce.

Talk about pick your poison.
If that's the case, then why is Bosh so much closer to being HOF'er than he was before he left Toronto?

Why is he going to more than likely make more money (5yr max deal...with success) from 2011 -2019 with Miami....... than he would have putting up 20-10 over that same time period "as the man" somewhere else?

[Papaya Petee]

Wade was still a top 10 player in the league imo in 2012 and the 2013 regular season. That 27 game winning streak was the last semblance we really saw of a consistently dominant Wade
He had very strong games this seasons with limited minutes.42 vs Utah 40 vs Detroit 32 and 31 point games vs Cleveland. 34 vs Boston. A ton of 26-28 point games.

He's really committing into getting in shape this off season. I believe this year we will witness one more strong 20-22 PPG season from Wade.

I hope the Heat can have a healthy lineup of Dragic, Wade, Winslow, Bosh and Whiteside with Deng and Beasley off the bench. I trully think that team can compete.

[Hey Yo]

He had very strong games this seasons with limited minutes.42 vs Utah 40 vs Detroit 32 and 31 point games vs Cleveland. 34 vs Boston. A ton of 26-28 point games.

He's really committing into getting in shape this off season. I believe this year we will witness one more strong 20-22 PPG season from Wade.

I hope the Heat can have a healthy lineup of Dragic, Wade, Winslow, Bosh and Whiteside with Deng and Beasley off the bench. I trully think that team can compete.
"MIAMI -- Michael Beasley's third stint with the Miami Heat has ended.

The Heat have declined their $1.3 million option to keep Beasley for next season, and the No. 2 pick in the 2008 draft will officially become a free agent on Wednesday.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13163332/miami-heat-decline-michael-beasley-option

I don't see him re-signing for less, but could be wrong.

[Papaya Petee]

"MIAMI -- Michael Beasley's third stint with the Miami Heat has ended.

The Heat have declined their $1.3 million option to keep Beasley for next season, and the No. 2 pick in the 2008 draft will officially become a free agent on Wednesday.

[url]http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13163332/miami-heat-decline-michael-beasley-option[/url

I don't see him re-signing for less, but could be wrong.

Its Spoelstras hate for Beasley, drives me insane. Beasley was becoming a better defender and provided scoring off the bench.

[aj1987]

Are people just being dense? Wade was injured in '12, '13, and '14. Bosh was injured in '12. To that guy who said Bosh doesn't play in the post anymore because of LeBron, Bosh himself said that he doesn't want to play in the post anymore. That he's done "banging in the post". Oh, and 85% of Bosh's shots were jumpshots in '14. 80% in '15. A 5% difference with and without LeBron.

In the 4 years Bosh played with LeBron, he took 13 shots a game in 34 MPG. In the 7 years before that, he took 14.4 shots a game in 37 MPG. A difference of 1.4 FGA while playing with LeBron AND Wade. 20.2/9.4 to 17.3/7.4. Lets all stop pretending that Bosh is anything more than a soft ass jump shooter.

Also, stop acting like Wade's knees with be '09-'11 level if he plays with anyone else. As good as Wade was in the '13 RS, he sucked ass in the first 3 rounds. Wasn't that good in '14 either.

Bosh isn't going to become tougher, Wade's knees aren't gonna heal, or Shitmers isn't gonna gain 50 IQ points just by playing with someone else.

[ArbitraryWater]

Are people just being dense? Wade was injured in '12, '13, and '14. Bosh was injured in '12. To that guy who said Bosh doesn't play in the post anymore because of LeBron, Bosh himself said that he doesn't want to play in the post anymore. That he's done "banging in the post". Oh, and 85% of Bosh's shots were jumpshots in '14. 80% in '15. A 5% difference with and without LeBron.

In the 4 years Bosh played with LeBron, he took 13 shots a game in 34 MPG. In the 7 years before that, he took 14.4 shots a game in 37 MPG. A difference of 1.4 FGA while playing with LeBron AND Wade. 20.2/9.4 to 17.3/7.4. Lets all stop pretending that Bosh is anything more than a soft ass jump shooter.

Also, stop acting like Wade's knees with be '09-'11 level if he plays with anyone else. As good as Wade was in the '13 RS, he sucked ass in the first 3 rounds. Wasn't that good in '14 either.

Bosh isn't going to become tougher, Wade's knees aren't gonna heal, or Shitmers isn't gonna gain 50 IQ points just by playing with someone else.

This is WAY too much for kuniva to account for. Lets rather continue spamming "top 20 could replace Bran doe" ISH

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Back to OP: So aside from Bran stans, about 10 or 15 of the greatest players ever would have replicated similar success?

People love hearing about the consensus so :rockon:

[DMAVS41]

Back to OP: So aside from Bran stans, about 10 or 15 of the greatest players ever would have replicated similar success?

People love hearing about the consensus so :rockon:

Yea.

If you wanted to get very math oriented.

I think the odds of winning each year would be something like:

11 - 90%
12 - 40%
13 - 50%
14 - 10%

Odds of winning 1 title at least? Roughly 95%.

Odds of winning 2 titles at least? Roughly 70%.

Odds of winning 3 titles at least? Roughly 18%.

Odds of winning 4 titles? Roughly 1.5%.

Obviously this is purely a guess and each players odds would be different. Like I'd put the odds that MJ/Kareem/Duncan win in 11 at near 100%...while guys at the latter part of the top 20 or so less than that.

I think it's a lock that 1 title is won by every player we are discussing.

I'd guess the average would be something like 3.6 finals made and somewhere between 1.8 and 2.2 titles won.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yea.

If you wanted to get very math oriented.

I think the odds of winning each year would be something like:

11 - 90%
12 - 40%
13 - 50%
14 - 10%

Odds of winning 1 title at least? Roughly 95%.

Odds of winning 2 titles at least? Roughly 70%.

Odds of winning 3 titles at least? Roughly 18%.

Odds of winning 4 titles? Roughly 1.5%.

Obviously this is purely a guess and each players odds would be different. Like I'd put the odds that MJ/Kareem/Duncan win in 11 at near 100%...while guys at the latter part of the top 20 or so less than that.

I think it's a lock that 1 title is won by every player we are discussing.

I'd guess the average would be something like 3.6 finals made and somewhere between 1.8 and 2.2 titles won.

2011 and 2012 would definitely be their best shot.

2013 would be tough because of the G6 fluke. I thought the Spurs were the better team who just had a mental collapse of the highest order. Truthfully? They probably thought it was wrap. Up 5, on the freethrow line, with 30 seconds left.... And who didn't honestly?

But yeah, nothing is guaranteed. If we're talking strictly Top 10 players, your percentages go up, beyond that, and they go down. Naturally.

[DMAVS41]

2011 and 2012 would definitely be their best shot.

2013 would be tough because of the G6 fluke. I thought the Spurs were the better team who just had a mental collapse of the highest order. Truthfully? They probably thought it was wrap. Up 5, on the freethrow line, with 30 seconds left.... And who didn't honestly?

But yeah, nothing is guaranteed. If we're talking strictly Top 10 players, your percentages go up, beyond that, and they go down. Naturally.

I actually don't think 12 is a much better shot than 13 the more I think about it.

It would depend on the player, but even with the top 15 GOAT players...a certain percentage of them are losing to the Celtics in 12. Yes, they'd have a better chance to win in the finals, but getting to the finals was harder in 12.

No Bosh and playing a Celtic team that had enough to beat them...Lebron was great and still down 2-3.

You are right about 13, but that Parker injury hurt the Spurs...and we have to remember how much tougher Lebron made that series on himself/team before the end of game 6.

Lebron was pretty bad in that series until the last 5 qtrs and OT.

I think most of the other guys we are talking about outperform him in the first 5.75 games and that is just a bit of a different series.

The 13 Spurs were a great team, but they wore down in the finals imo.

[FLDFSU]

Anybody can replace Lebron OP? :roll: :roll:

Is that why the 2014-15 Heat failed to make the playoffs in the "weakest conference of all time"?

[catch24]

Anybody can replace Lebron OP? :roll: :roll:

Is that why the 2014-15 Heat failed to make the playoffs in the "weakest conference of all time"?

What do you mean by "anybody"? I only think there are a select few dude.

[DMAVS41]

Anybody can replace Lebron OP? :roll: :roll:

Is that why the 2014-15 Heat failed to make the playoffs in the "weakest conference of all time"?


Who said this? Why do you always straw man positions?

The debate is how the top 15 or 20 players of all time, in their primes, would have done on similar teams in the same circumstances.

And the general consensus seems to be about the same, perhaps slightly worse...on the whole.

With the cream of the crop guys like MJ/Kareem/Duncan (imo) would have done perhaps a little better by winning 3 in those 4 years.

[FLDFSU]

What do you mean by "anybody"? I only think there are a select few dude.

Didn't mean to address "OP" in my posts. I was quoting some of the responses that said you could replace Lebron with anybody and achieve the same results.

[FLDFSU]

Who said this? Why do you always straw man positions?

The debate is how the top 15 or 20 players of all time, in their primes, would have done on similar teams in the same circumstances.

And the general consensus seems to be about the same, perhaps slightly worse...on the whole.

With the cream of the crop guys like MJ/Kareem/Duncan (imo) would have done perhaps a little better by winning 3 in those 4 years.


You don't have to replace him with an equal ball-hog. An all-star level player, who can create his shot as well as play off the ball, would be enough. And lol at defending 1-4.:roll: He gets shit on non-superstar SF's time and time again, yet you think you can act like he's a defensive force.:lol

....

[DMAVS41]

....


dude...anyone that isn't blatantly trolling. don't waste your time responding to people saying any all star player is doing as good or better.

it doesn't warrant a response.

[FLDFSU]

And the 2011 revisionist history of the Miami Heat needs to stop.

The Heat prior to the year was picked to finished behind Boston and Orlando in the East.

And the Lakers were the favorites to repeat as champions in the West.

During the regular season, the Heat failed to win a single game against the Bulls or Celtics until the last three weeks of the season (where we beat Boston once, I believe)

Once the playoffs started, the Heat was picked to lose to Boston in the second round, and to the Bulls in the ECF.


The Heat did not become favorites until after Chicago, and even then, the Heat went up against the team that swept the 2x NBA champions Mavs.


Please stop the BS.

[DMAVS41]

And the 2011 revisionist history of the Miami Heat needs to stop.

The Heat prior to the year was picked to finished behind Boston and Orlando in the East.

And the Lakers were the favorites to repeat as champions in the West.

During the regular season, the Heat failed to win a single game against the Bulls or Celtics until the last three weeks of the season (where we beat Boston once, I believe)

Once the playoffs started, the Heat was picked to lose to Boston in the second round, and to the Bulls in the ECF.


The Heat did not become favorites until after Chicago, and even then, the Heat went up against the team that swept the 2x NBA champions Mavs.


Please stop the BS.


3rd best offense
5th best defense

Went 62-19 after the 9-8 start up until game 2 of NBA finals.

Had prime Lebron/Bosh/Wade playing one of the least talented teams to make the finals in the last 31 years.

Up 15 points with 6:30 left in game 2 of the finals.

Nobody in the entire world, if asked at 6:30 left in game 2 of the finals, thought the Heat were losing.

I don't care about perception...that 11 Heat team was all time good until Lebron wet the bed in the finals.

The BS is ignoring that.

[FLDFSU]

dude...anyone that isn't blatantly trolling. don't waste your time responding to people saying any all star player is doing as good or better.

it doesn't warrant a response.

You know what's funny. Everytime I quote an ISH post, I get "Oh, ignore that person...he is clearly trolling...you have been trolled...there is no way anybody really believed that about the Miami Heat."

Then these exact same person that "should be ignored because they were clearly trolling" start saying the same things about the 2015 Cavs as they were about the 2011-2015 Heat. Yet somehow people believe they are not trolling...

I am sure by this time next year, DMAVS will be proclaiming that it was clearly "obvious" that to anybody that they were trolling about the 2015 Cavs. Although at present DMAVS doesn't think they are...

[DMAVS41]

You know what's funny. Everytime I quote an ISH post, I get "Oh, ignore that person...he is clearly trolling...you have been trolled...there is no way anybody really believed that about the Miami Heat."

Then these exact same person that "should be ignored because they were clearly trolling" start saying the same things about the 2015 Cavs as they were about the 2011-2015 Heat. Yet somehow people believe they are not trolling...

I am sure by this time next year, DMAVS will be proclaiming that it was clearly "obvious" that to anybody that they were trolling about the 2015 Cavs. Although at present DMAVS doesn't think they are...

What? I argued with the morons, that clearly weren't trolling, about the 15 Cavs. You know this.

Someone that says any all star is replicating Lebron on the Heat? Yea, they are either trolling or so stupid it's not worth replying.

[FLDFSU]

3rd best offense
5th best defense

Went 62-19 after the 9-8 start up until game 2 of NBA finals.

Had prime Lebron/Bosh/Wade playing one of the least talented teams to make the finals in the last 31 years.

Up 15 points with 6:30 left in game 2 of the finals.

Nobody in the entire world, if asked at 6:30 left in game 2 of the finals, thought the Heat were losing.

I don't care about perception...that 11 Heat team was all time good until Lebron wet the bed in the finals.

The BS is ignoring that.

The fact that you cannot wrap your mind around the notion that one player who "wet the bed in the Finals" and therefore that team ends up losing a 7 game series is the VERY DEFINITION of a non-stacked team is...well...typical contradictory ISH reasoning.

If you need one player to put up MVP, or close to MVP type numbers, instead of all star type numbers (17/7/7) while continuing to play the most amount of minutes of any player in the series, and taking the 4th most shots of any player in the series, while being an essential part of that team's defense...

That team is not stacked...


DMAVS: "Well, the Dream Team is the most stacked team of all time--relative to competition, but in order for them to win we need Magic Johnson to play the most minutes, be the leading scorer, rebounder, assist man, blocks, steals, have the offense run through them, and often guard the opposing team's best player. If Magic wets the bed and fails to produce at 100 percent of his norm, and instead produces at 80 percent, that team will lose. But that doesn't mean that the Dream Team wasn't the most staked team-relative to competition!!!"

[DMAVS41]

The fact that you cannot wrap your mind around the notion that one player who "wet the bed in the Finals" and therefore that team ends up losing a 7 game series is the VERY DEFINITION of a non-stacked team is...well...typical contradictory ISH reasoning.

If you need one player to put up MVP, or close to MVP type numbers, instead of all star type numbers (17/7/7) while continuing to play the most amount of minutes of any player in the series, and taking the 4th most shots of any player in the series, while being an essential part of that team's defense...

That team is not stacked...


DMAVS: "Well, the Dream Team is the most stacked team of all time--relative to competition, but in order for them to win we need Magic Johnson to play the most minutes, be the leading scorer, rebounder, assist man, blocks, steals, have the offense run through them, and often guard the opposing team's best player. If Magic wets the bed and fails to produce at 100 percent of his norm, and instead produces at 80 percent, that team will lose. But that doesn't mean that the Dream Team wasn't the most staked team-relative to competition!!!"


It wasn't just the numbers though. Lebron's defense was horrendous in that series. He let Terry and Marion clown him repeatedly.

His 4th qtr and clutch play was beyond bad as well.

Lebron didn't play like an all star. He shot sub 50% TS in games 2 through 5 at an absurdly low volume.

Just absurd how bad he was. Again, there is a reason why the 2011 Heat rank as the 2nd most talented team to make the finals in the last 31 years....but yep...no enough help for Lebron.

Just stop it...and do we really need to post the pictures of Lebron's 4th qtr performances when all the games were close down the stretch?

He was awful...worst finals ever by a superstar....


Terrible offense
Terrible defense
Choked in crunch time

And you blame the team? GTFO...

[SouBeachTalents]

The fact that you cannot wrap your mind around the notion that one player who "wet the bed in the Finals" and therefore that team ends up losing a 7 game series is the VERY DEFINITION of a non-stacked team is...well...typical contradictory ISH reasoning.

If you need one player to put up MVP, or close to MVP type numbers, instead of all star type numbers (17/7/7) while continuing to play the most amount of minutes of any player in the series, and taking the 4th most shots of any player in the series, while being an essential part of that team's defense...

That team is not stacked...


DMAVS: "Well, the Dream Team is the most stacked team of all time--relative to competition, but in order for them to win we need Magic Johnson to play the most minutes, be the leading scorer, rebounder, assist man, blocks, steals, have the offense run through them, and often guard the opposing team's best player. If Magic wets the bed and fails to produce at 100 percent of his norm, and instead produces at 80 percent, that team will lose. But that doesn't mean that the Dream Team wasn't the most staked team-relative to competition!!!"

The 2011 Heat aren't necessarily "stacked", but they were extremely top heavy, and had arguably the 2 best players in the league plus 3 of the top 15 all healthy and in their prime. So yes, a 3 man team would need all 3 to typically play well, and no, I don't think it's to much to ask a top 10 player of all time in his prime to average 20-22 ppg, which would have been the difference between a title and a Finals loss. Seriously, if LeBron scores 12 points in Game 4 they win the title

[GIF REACTION]

It wasn't just the numbers though. Lebron's defense was horrendous in that series. He let Terry and Marion clown him repeatedly.

His 4th qtr and clutch play was beyond bad as well.

Lebron didn't play like an all star. He shot sub 50% TS in games 2 through 5 at an absurdly low volume.

Just absurd how bad he was. Again, there is a reason why the 2011 Heat rank as the 2nd most talented team to make the finals in the last 31 years....but yep...no enough help for Lebron.

Just stop it...and do we really need to post the pictures of Lebron's 4th qtr performances when all the games were close down the stretch?

He was awful...worst finals ever by a superstar....


Terrible offense
Terrible defense
Choked in crunch time

And you blame the team? GTFO...
Are you aware of the 2004 vs 2011 thread?

It's already been established that Kobe in 2004 is undoubtedly worse,

[GIF REACTION]

WORST FINALS EVER FROM A SUPERSTAR

Kobe (46.2 Minutes Per Game)

22.6 points on 38% FG
2.8 rebounds
4.4 assists
1.8 steals
0.6 blocks


Lebron (43.6 Minutes Per Game)

17.8 points on 48% FG
7.2 rebounds
6.8 assists
1.7 steals
0.5 blocks

In 5 games Kobe took 113 shots and made 43 of them.

In 6 games Lebron took 90 shots and made 43 of them.

Kobe had a usage rate of 30.4, highest on his team

Lebron had a usage rate of 22.9, third highest on his team

[DMAVS41]

Are you aware of the 2004 vs 2011 thread?

It's already been established that Kobe in 2004 is undoubtedly worse,

I'm aware of both performances.

I rate Lebron's as worse given the circumstances.

But it really just results in which pile of shit smells worse. They were both all time bad.

But Lebron's terrible play on both ends...combined with his horrid crunch time play in a winnable series makes his worse for me.

Kobe's was awful, but they just got their shit kicked. Wasn't like they were losing close game after close game.

[GIF REACTION]

I'm aware of both performances.

I rate Lebron's as worse given the circumstances.

But it really just results in which pile of shit smells worse. They were both all time bad.

But Lebron's terrible play on both ends...combined with his horrid crunch time play in a winnable series makes his worse for me.

Kobe's was awful, but they just got their shit kicked. Wasn't like they were losing close game after close game.
So Lebron's performance is worse because his team was closer to winning?

Lol

[DMAVS41]

So Lebron's performance is worse because his team was closer to winning?

Lol

In part...absolutely.

It's one thing to play like ass when your team is getting their shit kicked.

Kobe and Lebron both play 10% better? Lakers still lose in 5. Heat likely win in 6.

I'd say Lebron's poor performance was more costly...and again...Kobe was playing a far better defense.

Please don't derail this thread.

It's not about Kobe vs Lebron. There is already a thread on that.

[Riley Martin]

I'm aware of both performances.

I rate Lebron's as worse given the circumstances.

But it really just results in which pile of shit smells worse. They were both all time bad.

But Lebron's terrible play on both ends...combined with his horrid crunch time play in a winnable series makes his worse for me.

Kobe's was awful, but they just got their shit kicked. Wasn't like they were losing close game after close game.

This.

[FLDFSU]

The 2011 Heat aren't necessarily "stacked", but they were extremely top heavy, and had arguably the 2 best players in the league plus 3 of the top 15 all healthy and in their prime. So yes, a 3 man team would need all 3 to typically play well, and no, I don't think it's to much to ask a top 10 player of all time in his prime to average 20-22 ppg, which would have been the difference between a title and a Finals loss. Seriously, if LeBron scores 12 points in Game 4 they win the title

Good. So in order for the Heat to win, one SPECIFIC player needed to play better.

If Wade was truly as great (And you won't find a bigger DWADE fan than myself)...and "arguably" a top 1-2 NBA player that year...

I need for Wade to be able to win us that series with Lebron contributing 17/7/7 and playing the most minutes. And Bosh adding 18/7.

Wade was absolutely awful the Chicago series the round before, but the Heat (Lebron) found a way to get it done.

Getting 17/7/7 from your second or third option over the course of a 7 game series should be enough for "prime" Wade.

[GIF REACTION]

They aren't held on the same standard, this is obvious. Lebron is above Kobe...

In expectation, Lebron's performance might have been worse... No one is surprised or shocked when Kobe is jacking up brick after brick... It's not that big a deal...

But in relative, realistic terms... Kobe clearly played worse. The stats support this and it can't be refuted.

So please fix that statement.... Unless you are suggesting that Kobe is not a super star...

[GimmeThat]

if I had to compare the differences between the Heat and the Celtics and their first year together

the Celtics oddly enough played what I would call, 1st round basketball during the regular season. they had game plans, but still left enough room for players to micro manage/create. with home court advantage, as well as having what many WOULD say the best roster in the league (as for most talented, is up for debate, since age matters)

where as the Heat came running out of gate playing conference finals type basketball. if they were to beat you, they were going to beat you hard and forcefully by creating those runs that made it difficult to catch up again.
which, to me, it didn't seem like it could work, because had the coach not had plays prepared long before the 'friction' happened, 3 or 4 possessions just blow by before the 2 team members figure out what they would do in order to make the other team adjust.


you take that 3 or 4 possessions away, and reduce it to 1, maybe 2.

the only thing that had left them worried, were your typical, 'I thought you had that defensive assignment covered in rotation' because as they say, defense translates/transitions (depending on which school you went to) into offense.

[DMAVS41]

They aren't held on the same standard, this is obvious. Lebron is above Kobe...

In expectation, Lebron's performance might have been worse... No one is surprised or shocked when Kobe is jacking up brick after brick... It's not that big a deal...

But in relative, realistic terms... Kobe clearly played worse. The stats support this and it can't be refuted.

So please fix that statement.... Unless you are suggesting that Kobe is not a super star...


Fix what?

You don't judge a performance against different teams under different circumstances solely on stats....

Please leave thread. Won't respond to you about this again.

[DMAVS41]

Good. So in order for the Heat to win, one SPECIFIC player needed to play better.

If Wade was truly as great (And you won't find a bigger DWADE fan than myself)...and "arguably" a top 1-2 NBA player that year...

I need for Wade to be able to win us that series with Lebron contributing 17/7/7 and playing the most minutes. And Bosh adding 18/7.

Wade was absolutely awful the Chicago series the round before, but the Heat (Lebron) found a way to get it done.

Getting 17/7/7 from your second or third option over the course of a 7 game series should be enough for "prime" Wade.

Why do you keep listing 17/7/7 acting like it's some achievement?

That would have been more than enough if Lebron defended in that series.
That would have been more than enough if Lebron didn't score so inefficiently overall and in 4th qtrs.

I can't believe people actually try to pretend that Lebron wasn't horrendous in the 11 finals.

Just pathetic.

[Wade's Rings]

Good. So in order for the Heat to win, one SPECIFIC player needed to play better.

If Wade was truly as great (And you won't find a bigger DWADE fan than myself)...and "arguably" a top 1-2 NBA player that year...

:roll:


I need for Wade to be able to win us that series with Lebron contributing 17/7/7 and playing the most minutes. And Bosh adding 18/7.

Here's what Bron contributed in the 4th Quarter

http://i60.tinypic.com/jpafww.png

http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmkjpwbjh01qh9wcto1_500.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ljjn5o-FHtU/hqdefault.jpg


Wade was absolutely awful the Chicago series the round before, but the Heat (Lebron) found a way to get it done.

Bosh gave 23/8 on 60% shooting vs the Bulls but Lebron won that series by himself :oldlol:

[FLDFSU]

So Lebron's performance is worse because his team was closer to winning?

Lol

The reason why is because

1. DMAVS understand that the 2004 Laker's success was not dependent on Kobe "playing like a superstar" because DMAVS fully understands what "stacked" actually means...but for whatever reason when it comes to the Heat he as this twisted, illogical definition of "stacked" being the presence of Lebron (and only Lebron apparently).

2. DMAVS doesn't really hold Kobe to the standard he imposes on Lebron. I have my suspicion on why that is, but am not 100% certain.

[GIF REACTION]

Lol....

When the numbers are that glaring it is a clear representation of performance

Nothing can rebuke that

It's like that Derrick Rose 2011 shit... You cling to the stats while completely ignoring the context of the team during the season....

Pick and choose... Whatever fits your agenda right...

[GIF REACTION]

DMAVS is a smart dude but he consistently contradicts himself

[DMAVS41]

The reason why is because

1. DMAVS understand that the 2004 Laker's success was not dependent on Kobe "playing like a superstar" because DMAVS fully understands what "stacked" actually means...but for whatever reason when it comes to the Heat he as this twisted, illogical definition of "stacked" being the presence of Lebron (and only Lebron apparently).

2. DMAVS doesn't really hold Kobe to the standard he imposes on Lebron. I have my suspicion on why that is, but am not 100% certain.

You are reaching idiot status quickly.

The reasons Kobe's wasn't "quite as bad"...it's close...is because of the competition and circumstances.

Stop pretending like Lebron didn't choke every 4th qtr and get his shit pushed by Marion, Terry, and Barea repeatedly when he guarded them.

I've written about this before...the most under-rated thing about the 11 Finals for Lebron was just how awful his defense was.

Which is why I can't give the Mavs all the credit. The defensive scheme the Mavs played was brilliant and put Lebron into difficult situations given his clear flaws on offense at the time. That was mostly the Mavs.

But his crunch time play and defense? Nah...that was a mentally weak player being completely shook by the moment.

The 04 Pistons were one of the best defenses of all time and the Lakers were getting killed. While Kobe was terrible, it just isn't quite as bad, again...close, to Lebron doing what he did against easier defense and in much close games...

[FLDFSU]

DMAVS is a smart dude but he consistently contradicts himself

:applause:

[DMAVS41]

Lol....

When the numbers are that glaring it is a clear representation of performance

Nothing can rebuke that

It's like that Derrick Rose 2011 shit... You cling to the stats while completely ignoring the context of the team during the season....

Pick and choose... Whatever fits your agenda right...

The stats aren't that different you idiot.

You are just ignoring crunch time play and defense.

Why are you only posting overall stats?????

The Rose stuff is actually consistent here...the big reason I say it was so bad was because he was so bad in the close games.

That is actually remaining consistent.

Do you really want to get clowned here?

Let me know.

[Riley Martin]

I can't believe people actually try to pretend that Lebron wasn't horrendous in the 11 finals.

I don't understand this trend on ISH either.

[DMAVS41]

:applause:


:facepalm

[GIF REACTION]

Because stats are a quantitative value to an individual's contribution to his team... Obviously

Those stats might look similar to you but they are clearly not...

Lebron was the 3rd option in the 2011 finals... The usage rate supports this... He shot 48% and had a very strong statline for a 3rd option....

Kobe was the 1st option in the 2004 finals.... His usage rate supports this... He shot 38% and had a very poor statline for a number 1 option with a usage rate that high...

[DMAVS41]

Because stats are a quantitative value to an individual's contribution to his team... Obviously

Those stats might look similar to you but they are clearly not...

Lebron was the 3rd option in the 2011 finals... The usage rate supports this... He shot 48% and had a very strong statline for a 3rd option....

Kobe was the 1st option in the 2004 finals.... His usage rate supports this... He shot 38% and had a very poor statline for a number 1 option with a usage rate that high...

That is flawed logic.

You are rewarding Lebron for standing in the corner like a passive bitch.

And you still aren't discussing my points on crunch time play in close games.

Again, I'm staying consistent here with my take on Rose...you can disagree with it, that is more than fine.

But don't say I'm not being consistent.

The main reason I thought Rose was so bad was because of his late game play...partly the same for Lebron.

It's worse to me to play that badly when the games are winnable.

Do you concede your earlier statement about a contradiction?

[tpols]

Who is going to take seriously a comparison of stats where one team is the greatest defensive team of all time loaded with all stars.. compared to a pretty good defensive team.. but nothing all time great or anything.

Detroit was holding teams to 70-80 points a game for stretches in the playoffs. The mavs were just gunning on people.. Detroit just beat the shit out of you and halted it out.


It's like comparing two football games one in a sunny Miami stadium.. no wind, beautiful out, perfect conditions, lots of passes and scoring.. the other in Chicago December cold as shit, hail storm, mostly just running and short dump offs 10-7 final score. Theyre just not comparable circumstances.


We saw bron against a similar great defense in 08 celtics and it was one of the worst efficiency series ever.. imagine him against prime Detroit lol.

[DMAVS41]

Who is going to take seriously a comparison of stats where one team is the greatest defensive team of all time loaded with all stars.. compared to a pretty good defensive team.. but nothing all time great or anything.

Detroit was holding teams to 70-80 points a game for stretches in the playoffs. The mavs were just gunning on people.. Detroit just beat the shit out of you and halted it out.


It's like comparing two football games one in a sunny Miami stadium.. no wind, beautiful out, perfect conditions, lots of passes and scoring.. the other in Chicago December cold as shit, hail storm, mostly just running and short dump offs 10-7 final score. Theyre just not comparable circumstances.


We saw bron against a similar great defense in 08 celtics and it was one of the worst efficiency series ever.. imagine him against prime Detroit lol.

Bingo.

And you combine that with the choking late in close games and letting the likes of Terry/Barea/Marion clown you when you are guarding them....and it results in a worse series imo.

Not gonna act like they aren't in the same realm, but it is not a controversial take to say Lebron was worse.

In fact, I think that is just reality.

[FLDFSU]

:facepalm

I agree with everything 100% he said.

No matter how many intellectual hoops you attempt to jump through...

Claiming a team is "stacked" (or in your words, "the most stacked team of all time relative to competition") and then citing that ONE player, who produced at a 17/7/7 clip (among doing other things) as needing to produce more in order for the team to win a seven game series...is not a stacked team.

You can argue about Lebron being horrible for a superstar standard or "wetting the bed", etc. etc...none of which I necessarily disagree with or have an opinion on...

But as far as the 2011 MIAMI HEAT TEAM, your very words taken to a logical conclusion is contradictory.

And it is not the first time I have observed what on the surface is a very dispassionate, intellectual, seemingly reasoned, principled argument from you, when examined fully, contains multiple contradictions.

[DMAVS41]

I agree with everything 100% he said.

No matter how many intellectual hoops you attempt to jump through...

Claiming a team is "stacked" (or in your words, "the most stacked team of all time relative to competition") and then citing that ONE player, who produced at a 17/7/7 clip (among doing other things) as needing to produce more in order for the team to win a seven game series...is not a stacked team.

You can argue about Lebron being horrible for a superstar standard or "wetting the bed", etc. etc...none of which I necessarily disagree with or have an opinion on...

But as far as the 2011 MIAMI HEAT TEAM, your very words taken to a logical conclusion is contradictory.

And it is not the first time I have observed what on the surface is a very dispassionate, intellectual, seemingly reasoned, principled argument from you, when examined fully, contains multiple contradictions.


We just view it differently.

Superstar plays the worst finals ever....and if he's like 10% better...or just makes a few more plays in the 4th qtrs...the Heat could have easily won in 6.

Even with Lebron playing like shit.

To me that is the definition of stacked. Best player on team can play like shit and you still could have easily beaten a great team like the 11 Mavs. Again...definition of stacked.

Lebron wets the bed...and here comes Wade to pick up the slack with a great performance.

It's not just me though....the talent rating on the 11 Heat was 2nd in the past 31 years.

Sounds pretty stacked to me....but let me guess...that is invalid as well....all because you "say so"....great arguments.

[aj1987]

Lebron was pretty bad in that series until the last 5 qtrs and OT.

I think most of the other guys we are talking about outperform him in the first 5.75 games and that is just a bit of a different series.
How is that even remotely true?

G1 - 18/18/10 and the Spurs won on an incredible TP GW.
G2 - He didn't score much, but his defense and passing was on point (not a bad game by any means).
G3 - Played like shit.
G4 - Wade dominated, but LeBron had a pretty decent game as well (33/11/4/2/2 on 62% TS).
G5 - Shot the ball like shit, but was again decent defensively.

In all, he had ~3 good games before game 6.

[DMAVS41]

Lets go over it again.

538 study ranks the 11 Heat with the 2nd most talent in the last 31 years of finals teams.

Team goes 62-19 after the 9-8 start and is up 15 points with 6:30 left in game 2 of the NBA finals.

They were elite on both sides of the ball.

They had a prime Wade/Bosh/Lebron with a few other solid role players like Haslem/Chalmers (especially on defense)....

Nobody, I mean nobody, would have ever even uttered the shit you are above about this team not being stacked and great at the 6:30 mark in game 2.

People were saying the team was so good it was unfair for the league.

[DMAVS41]

How is that even remotely true?

G1 - 18/18/10 and the Spurs won on an incredible TP GW.
G2 - He didn't score much, but his defense and passing was on point (not a bad game by any means).
G3 - Played like shit.
G4 - Wade dominated, but LeBron had a pretty decent game as well (33/11/4/2/2 on 62% TS).
G5 - Shot the ball like shit, but was again decent defensively.

In all, he had ~3 good games before game 6.

He had a great game 4....outside of that his scoring efficiency up until the 4th qtr of game 6 was even worse than it was against the Mavs the year before.

It was bad dude...

[Wade's Rings]

He had a great game 4....outside of that his scoring efficiency up until the 4th qtr of game 6 was even worse than it was against the Mavs the year before.

It was bad dude...

He shot 39% through the 1st 5 Games IIRC

[tpols]

He had a great game 4....outside of that his scoring efficiency up until the 4th qtr of game 6 was even worse than it was against the Mavs the year before.

It was bad dude...

Game 4 was the one where wade took over in the second half, bloomed the lead to double digits and Bron scored like 9 or 10 points in garbage time right after the takeover.. it's why stats with bron can be so misleading..

[aj1987]

He had a great game 4....outside of that his scoring efficiency up until the 4th qtr of game 6 was even worse than it was against the Mavs the year before.

It was bad dude...
Dirk had worse efficiency than LeBron in '11, FYI. Doesn't mean Dirk was bad in the '11 Finals. You're just looking at efficiency and saying that LeBron had bad games because of his efficiency. What about defense, rebounding, and playmaking? He had 2 games in which he shot like shit (33% and 36%).

G1 - 18/18/10 and the Spurs won on an incredible TP GW.
G2 - He didn't score much, but his defense and passing was on point (not a bad game by any means).
G3 - Played like shit.
G4 - Wade dominated, but LeBron had a pretty decent game as well (33/11/4/2/2 on 62% TS).
G5 - Shot the ball like shit, but was again decent defensively.


He shot 39% through the 1st 5 Games IIRC
44/32/74


Game 4 was the one where wade took over in the second half, bloomed the lead to double digits and Bron scored like 9 or 10 points in garbage time right after the takeover.. it's why stats with bron can be so misleading..
Even if you get rid of those 7 points, LeBron had 27/11/4/2/2 on 59% TS. You Kobe stans shouldn't be talking about stats being misleading, BTW.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk had worse efficiency than LeBron in '11, FYI. Doesn't mean Dirk was bad in the '11 Finals. You're just looking at efficiency and saying that LeBron had bad games because of his efficiency. What about defense, rebounding, and playmaking? He had 2 games in which he shot like shit (33% and 36%).

G1 - 18/18/10 and the Spurs won on an incredible TP GW.
G2 - He didn't score much, but his defense and passing was on point (not a bad game by any means).
G3 - Played like shit.
G4 - Wade dominated, but LeBron had a pretty decent game as well (33/11/4/2/2 on 62% TS).
G5 - Shot the ball like shit, but was again decent defensively.


44/32/74


Even if you get rid of those 7 points, LeBron had 27/11/4/2/2 on 59% TS. You Kobe stans shouldn't be talking about stats being misleading, BTW.


Dirk's efficiency in the games I'm talking about was not worse.

Lebron shot:

51% TS
48% TS
36% TS
48% TS

And then before the 4th qtr of game 6 I believe he was at around 45% TS or worse...someone calculated it a couple years back.

I'm not claiming Lebron had a poor series overall. I'm saying his first 5.75 games overall were not that great and we have to mention that before we start acting like nobody else could have won that series.

Of course scoring isn't the only thing that matters, but sub 50% TS for that long of a stretch in a close series really matters.

And again...we have to mention how he was defended. Little extra attention...going under all screens. Very few doubles in the post.

I thought that was actually the downfall of the Spurs...Pop made a huge mistake not running at Lebron once he got hot in game 6....and then letting him walk into open shots in game 7. But Pop is so stubborn and it worked through the first 6 games essentially...but thought that was a big mistake.

[Indian guy]

Game 4 was the one where wade took over in the second half, bloomed the lead to double digits and Bron scored like 9 or 10 points in garbage time right after the takeover.. it's why stats with bron can be so misleading..

Huh? That doesn't negate the fact that LeBron had played a great game through 3 qtrs, and was in fact Miami's best player on the floor up until Wade's big 4th qtr. He had 24/9/4/2/2 on 11-21 FG through 3 qtrs and Miami entered the 4th up 5.

Overall, LeBron had 4 good/great games(1, 4, 6 & 7), 1 average(Game 2) and 2 bad ones(3&5) in the 2013 Finals. This notion that he was awful up until the 4th qtr of Game 6 is just factually incorrect.

[DMAVS41]

Huh? That doesn't negate the fact that LeBron had played a great game through 3 qtrs, and was in fact Miami's best player on the floor up until Wade's big 4th qtr. He had 24/9/4/2/2 on 11-21 FG through 3 qtrs and Miami entered the 4th up 5.

Overall, LeBron had 4 good/great games(1, 4, 6 & 7), 1 average(Game 2) and 2 bad ones(3&5) in the 2013 Finals. This notion that he was awful up until the 4th qtr of Game 6 is just factually incorrect.

Nobody said he was awful.

It's just that his series was subpar for a superstar up until the 4th qtr of game 6.

Are you telling me that if you paused the 13 finals in game 6 when Lebron was like 3-12 from the field and his team was down 10 entering the 4th iirc...

That if we paused the series right there and evaluated it so far...you'd say Lebron had played well up to that point? I just don't believe that.

Overall it doesn't matter because he came through when his team needed him the most, but the point is about another GOAT type player playing in his place....and I think it needs mentioning how much of a struggle it was for him in that series before the 4th qtr of game 6.

[tpols]

Huh? That doesn't negate the fact that LeBron had played a great game through 3 qtrs, and was in fact Miami's best player on the floor up until Wade's big 4th qtr. He had 24/9/4/2/2 on 11-21 FG through 3 qtrs and Miami entered the 4th up 5.

Overall, LeBron had 4 good/great games(1, 4, 6 & 7), 1 average(Game 2) and 2 bad ones(3&5) in the 2013 Finals. This notion that he was awful up until the 4th qtr of Game 6 is just factually incorrect.

I don't think he had a bad game or anything.. pretty good, but Wade was the momentum pusher in that one. Its just semantics between good and great though.

Its hard to quantify pop daring bron to shoot though.. almost no doubles, was really bad in the post for some reason that series. Most offensive stars cant be guarded like that.. theyd make the defense pay in a huge way. Bron was bricking up til game 7 of that series hard given the circumstances.

[Indian guy]

I don't think he had a bad game or anything

How is 33/11/4/2/2 on 15-25 shooting not a great game? He was undobutedly the team's best player through 3 qtrs and finished with the best +/- of all starters too. Wade's 10 point burst to start the 4th qtr turned a 5 point lead to 11 by the time LeBron checked back in, and he probably gets honors for POTG because of it, but LeBron was great himself that night.


almost no doubles

The ****? LeBron couldn't take 1 dribble inside the 3pt line in that series without 4 guys surrounding him. Spurs were playing zone on every single possession. The only series I can think of in his career where he faced more coverage was the 2008 ECS against Boston.


Bron was bricking up til game 7 of that series hard given the circumstances.

Come on, dude. He shot 43% through the first 6 games. Kobe has 1 Finals series in his career where he shot better than that.

[DMAVS41]

How is 33/11/4/2/2 on 15-25 shooting not a great game? He was undobutedly the team's best player through 3 qtrs and finished with the best +/- of all starters too. Wade's 10 point burst to start the 4th qtr turned a 5 point lead to 11 by the time LeBron checked back in, and he probably gets honors for POTG because of it, but LeBron was great himself that night.



The ****? LeBron couldn't take 1 dribble inside the 3pt line in that series without 4 guys surrounding him. Spurs were playing zone on every single possession. The only series I can think of in his career where he faced more coverage was the 2008 ECS against Boston.



Come on, dude. He shot 43% through the first 6 games. Kobe has 1 Finals series in his career where he shot better than that.


He shot 49.8% TS through the first 6 games...that is not good.

And again, this is about up until that 4th qtr of game 6. Which drops it down to around 48% TS.

And even more context needs to be applied here as his game 4 greatly props that up even more. It's not like his performance in game 4 resulted in 2 wins.

The truth is Lebron shoot very poorly in games 1, 2, 3, 5, and 3 qtrs of game 6 overall...that isn't some small sample in a series. It's a large chunk.

Again, if Ray Allen misses that shot....people are talking about this series, and rightfully so, in a completely different way.

In the end this all means nothing.

The reason this is brought up is because I think that poor shooting inflated the Spurs a bit in that series. The Spurs had worn down and Parker was just a shell in that series after his injury.

The Spurs went from a great team to highly beatable when that happened. And Lebron's consistently poor shooting through most of the first 6 games of that series failed to make the Spurs pay much for that.

[SwayDizzle]

Kobe would have merked the Spurs, absolutely destroyed them. Made them his lil b*tch. Grandpa Duncan would have gotten injured from the pure greatness. Instead Bronze gave him life.

[aj1987]

Dirk's efficiency in the games I'm talking about was not worse.

Lebron shot:

51% TS
48% TS
36% TS
48% TS
Dirk had games of 51%, 45%, and 38% (game 6). Lets not pretend Dirk shot 60% for the series.



I'm not claiming Lebron had a poor series overall. I'm saying his first 5.75 games overall were not that great and we have to mention that before we start acting like nobody else could have won that series.
Game 1 he had a peak Magic statline, game 4 he had a peak Hakeem statline, game 2 he didn't have a great statline, but if you saw the game, you'd know the impact he had.


Of course scoring isn't the only thing that matters, but sub 50% TS for that long of a stretch in a close series really matters.
LeBron was at 49.4%, but Wade and Bosh were't playing that well either. Also, without those two horrid shooting games, he'd probably be at ~55% TS.


And again...we have to mention how he was defended. Little extra attention...going under all screens. Very few doubles in the post.
Nah, he was being given a ton of room to shoot. The defenders were falling back and ready to defend him in the paint. He did get doubled a TON, whenever he got the ball in the post. They did dare him to shoot jumpers though.

I'm not saying that he was efficient, but despite his efficiency, he had a couple of good games. It just wasn't the last 5 quarters and OT.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk had games of 51%, 45%, and 38% (game 6). Lets not pretend Dirk shot 60% for the series.



Game 1 he had a peak Magic statline, game 4 he had a peak Hakeem statline, game 2 he didn't have a great statline, but if you saw the game, you'd know the impact he had.


LeBron was at 49.4%, but Wade and Bosh were't playing that well either. Also, without those two horrid shooting games, he'd probably be at ~55% TS.


Nah, he was being given a ton of room to shoot. The defenders were falling back and ready to defend him in the paint. He did get doubled a TON, whenever he got the ball in the post. They did dare him to shoot jumpers though.

I'm not saying that he was efficient, but despite his efficiency, he had a couple of good games. It just wasn't the last 5 quarters and OT.


Dude...I never said it was only a good 5 qtrs. I said his scoring efficiency was poor in the time I talked about...which it just was.

Tell me this....lets make this easy.

If you paused that series going into the 4th qtr of game 6. How would you describe Lebron's performance in the series to that point?


For the Dirk stuff. Check my posts...you'll never see me pretending like Dirk was amazing in the finals. I thought he was good, but not at his best at all. And I certainly wouldn't be arguing that very few, if any, players in NBA history could replace him and win that series....which is what Lebron fans are doing here.

Answer the above question to see if we are far apart here or not.

[nba_55]

People are so dumb in here. :lol :lol They think you can change the biggest part of a team without affecting the rest of the team. :facepalm

[Wade's Rings]

How is 33/11/4/2/2 on 15-25 shooting not a great game? He was undobutedly the team's best player through 3 qtrs and finished with the best +/- of all starters too. Wade's 10 point burst to start the 4th qtr turned a 5 point lead to 11 by the time LeBron checked back in, and he probably gets honors for POTG because of it, but LeBron was great himself that night

I messed up earlier. He scored 6 of 34 in the last 1:45 against Benchwarmers.

[aj1987]

Dude...I never said it was only a good 5 qtrs. I said his scoring efficiency was poor in the time I talked about...which it just was.

Tell me this....lets make this easy.

If you paused that series going into the 4th qtr of game 6. How would you describe Lebron's performance in the series to that point?


For the Dirk stuff. Check my posts...you'll never see me pretending like Dirk was amazing in the finals. I thought he was good, but not at his best at all. And I certainly wouldn't be arguing that very few, if any, players in NBA history could replace him and win that series....which is what Lebron fans are doing here.

Answer the above question to see if we are far apart here or not.
If it was a 5 game series, I would say he had a terrible series because of the loss and also because of games 3 and 5. The two in which LeBron shot like garbage.

You actually said that LeBron was pretty bad until the final 5 quarters. Your exact words:


Lebron was pretty bad in that series until the last 5 qtrs and OT.

Again, all I'm saying is that he had a couple of good games outside games 6 & 7.

[DMAVS41]

If it was a 5 game series, I would say he had a terrible series because of the loss and also because of games 3 and 5. The two in which LeBron shot like garbage.

You actually said that LeBron was pretty bad until the final 5 quarters. Your exact words:



Again, all I'm saying is that he had a couple of good games outside games 6 & 7.


You are right.

I should have said he was pretty bad outside of game 4 up until the last 5 qtrs. My bad for the confusion.

Again...I think we agree here though.

[FLDFSU]

Why do you keep listing 17/7/7 acting like it's some achievement?

That would have been more than enough if Lebron defended in that series.
That would have been more than enough if Lebron didn't score so inefficiently overall and in 4th qtrs.

I can't believe people actually try to pretend that Lebron wasn't horrendous in the 11 finals.

Just pathetic.

Praytell, what would be your response if Lebron James got 17/7/7 from K. Irving, and 18/7 from Love in this Finals and lost?

[SouBeachTalents]

Praytell, what would be your response if Lebron James got 17/7/7 from K. Irving, and 18/7 from Love in this Finals and lost?

If Kyrie's regular season scoring average dropped an NBA record 9 ppg in the Finals I'd say he massively underperformed, especially if he was a ghost in every 4th quarter

[dubeta]

If Kyrie's regular season scoring average dropped an NBA record 9 ppg in the Finals I'd say he massively underperformed, especially if he was a ghost in every 4th quarter

So LeBron gets blamed for scoring 9 ppg more in the regular season? :facepalm


Should he have averaged 20 ppg in the regular season so his finals performance wouldn't have looked as bad? :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

Praytell, what would be your response if Lebron James got 17/7/7 from K. Irving, and 18/7 from Love in this Finals and lost?

The fact that your argument and the other guys argument is that Lebron should be held to 3rd option standards...and that is why it wasn't a terrible finals and why the Heat weren't stacked....

It's telling.

Lebron isn't Kyrie or Love. He's a ****ing top 10 GOAT type player...I'm not judging him and Kyrie or Love on the same scale.

This really needs to be said?

You guys are backdoor arguing Lebron isn't that great. LOL

[TheMarkMadsen]

So LeBron gets blamed for scoring 9 ppg more in the regular season? :facepalm


Should he have averaged 20 ppg in the regular season so his finals performance wouldn't have looked as bad? :rolleyes:

and you wonder why nobody takes lebron stans seriously

[DMAVS41]

So LeBron gets blamed for scoring 9 ppg more in the regular season? :facepalm


Should he have averaged 20 ppg in the regular season so his finals performance wouldn't have looked as bad? :rolleyes:

What the **** is this?

[Droid101]

What the **** is this?
Another ban worthy post brought to you by the biggest idiot I've ever heard of on the internet: dubeta.

[aj1987]

So LeBron gets blamed for scoring 9 ppg more in the regular season? :facepalm


Should he have averaged 20 ppg in the regular season so his finals performance wouldn't have looked as bad? :rolleyes:
WOAT logic. Literally the WORST.

[FLDFSU]

If Kyrie's regular season scoring average dropped an NBA record 9 ppg in the Finals I'd say he massively underperformed, especially if he was a ghost in every 4th quarter

Sure, but what about Lebron? Would you think that 17/7/7 and 18/7 from Irving and Love was sufficient for Lebron to win a title?

The same analogy applies to Wade in 2011.

17/7/7 from Lebron and 18/7 from Bosh should be sufficient for top 3 NBA player Wade to win a title IF we are applying the same standards to Wade that we do for Lebron.

[dubeta]

Sure, but what about Lebron? Would you think that 17/7/7 and 18/7 from Irving and Love was sufficient for Lebron to win a title?

The same analogy applies to Wade in 2011.

17/7/7 from Lebron and 18/7 from Bosh should be sufficient for top 3 NBA player Wade to win a title IF we are applying the same standards to Wade that we do for Lebron.

This.

People FORGET about Wades embarassing clutch performance in Game 4 of the Finals People remember LeBron scoring only 8 points, but forget Wade missed 2 FTs, and basically couldnt catch an inbound pass with 5 seconds left to win the game

LeBron was better in Games, 1, 2, 6

Wade was better in Games 3, 4, 5 (Even though he cost his team in Game 4)


Overall they both were equally responsible, even though LeBron got far more blame.

[Doranku]

This.

People FORGET about Wades embarassing clutch performance in Game 4 of the Finals People remember LeBron scoring only 8 points, but forget Wade missed 2 FTs, and basically couldnt catch an inbound pass with 5 seconds left to win the game

LeBron was better in Games, 1, 2, 6

Wade was better in Games 3, 4, 5 (Even though he cost his team in Game 4)


Overall they both were equally responsible, even though LeBron got far more blame.

Game 2:

LeBron: 20/8/4
Wade: 36/5/6

"LeBron was better in Game 2"













lmao

[DMAVS41]

Sure, but what about Lebron? Would you think that 17/7/7 and 18/7 from Irving and Love was sufficient for Lebron to win a title?

The same analogy applies to Wade in 2011.

17/7/7 from Lebron and 18/7 from Bosh should be sufficient for top 3 NBA player Wade to win a title IF we are applying the same standards to Wade that we do for Lebron.

Depends on what those guys do in crunch time and on defense.

If they get clowned on defense and choke when it matters most...I sure as hell wouldn't expect them to beat a team like the 11 Mavs.

:confusedshrug:

Didn't Lebron average 18 a game as well? Stop listing 18/7/7 like it's representative of his performance.

[Wade's Rings]

Game 2:

LeBron: 20/8/4
Wade: 36/5/6

"LeBron was better in Game 2"













lmao



Wade played better in the 2nd Half of Game 1 and closed the Deal.

In Game 2 after Wade hits that corner 3 Lebron holds the ball for 4 straight Possessions completely getting Wade out of the Offensive flow. And he mentally checked out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL3Kz3DD1uQ

[Crimsonrain777]

Sure, but what about Lebron? Would you think that 17/7/7 and 18/7 from Irving and Love was sufficient for Lebron to win a title?

The same analogy applies to Wade in 2011.

17/7/7 from Lebron and 18/7 from Bosh should be sufficient for top 3 NBA player Wade to win a title IF we are applying the same standards to Wade that we do for Lebron.

absolutely not. it depends on the context.

scoring 17/7/7 on a bad shooting percentage is indicative of a terrible performance on offense and not something anyone should be taking seriously. you analyze the numbers but not the details.


And the team needed the three of them to perform well, seeing how that team was built around the abilites of those three players. one of them plays way below their level and the Heat lose. not a surprise


i wonder how some people in the thread would think the 2011 Heat team wouldve done in the finals with Kobe(substituted for Lebron) averaging 27.6 ppg and playing the way he did during the earlier parts of the last NBA season?.....

[Wade's Rings]

i wonder how some people in the thread would think the 2011 Heat team wouldve done in the finals with Kobe(substituted for Lebron) averaging 27.6 ppg and playing the way he did during the earlier parts of the last NBA season?.....

Well Kobe didn't play well vs Dallas that year but the Heat still win it all IMO. I'm not 100% sure on how Wade vs Kobe would work but I doubt they lose.

[Crimsonrain777]

Well Kobe didn't play well vs Dallas that year but the Heat still win it all IMO. I'm not 100% sure on how Wade vs Kobe would work but I doubt they lose.

no, im saying replace Lebron with 2014- 2015 Kobe. he may have scored alot of points but he shot a terrible shooting percentage, and his team was worse off because of it

[Wade's Rings]

no, im saying replace Lebron with 2014- 2015 Kobe. he may have scored alot of points but he shot a terrible shooting percentage, and his team was worse off because of it

They wouldn't have a chance unless Kobe fully committed to being Wade's 2nd Option. Even then his Defense wasn't as good as Bron's.

[FLDFSU]

Depends on what those guys do in crunch time and on defense.

If they get clowned on defense and choke when it matters most...I sure as hell wouldn't expect them to beat a team like the 11 Mavs.

:confusedshrug:

Didn't Lebron average 18 a game as well? Stop listing 18/7/7 like it's representative of his performance.

:roll: You and I both know that Lebron's 2011 Finals performance if given to Irving (and Bosh's performance given to Love) would ABSOLUTELY be viewed as sufficient for Lebron James to win a title.

I don't care about context or what "happens in crunch time..." Lebron getting that kind of support in the 2015 Finals and losing would NEVER be acceptable...

including by you.

[Wade's Rings]

:roll: You and I both know that Lebron's 2011 Finals performance if given to Irving (and Bosh's performance given to Love) would ABSOLUTELY be viewed as sufficient for Lebron James to win a title.

I don't care about context or what "happens in crunch time..." Lebron getting that kind of support in the 2015 Finals and losing would NEVER be acceptable...

including by you.

Nobody would say that if Kyrie went Casper in the 4th unless Bron vanished too.

[Doranku]

:roll: You and I both know that Lebron's 2011 Finals performance if given to Irving (and Bosh's performance given to Love) would ABSOLUTELY be viewed as sufficient for Lebron James to win a title.

I don't care about context or what "happens in crunch time..." Lebron getting that kind of support in the 2015 Finals and losing would NEVER be acceptable...

including by you.

So LeBron getting 18/7/7 from Kyrie and 18/7 from Love and losing would NEVER be acceptable according to you... in the 2015 finals, mind you. A lesser version of 2011 LeBron.

2011 PRIME LeBron got 27/5/5 from Wade and 18/7 from Bosh and couldn't beat a much inferior team to both his own team and to the 2015 Warriors.


What the F*CK are you arguing? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Crimsonrain777]

:roll: You and I both know that Lebron's 2011 Finals performance if given to Irving (and Bosh's performance given to Love) would ABSOLUTELY be viewed as sufficient for Lebron James to win a title.

I don't care about context or what "happens in crunch time..." Lebron getting that kind of support in the 2015 Finals and losing would NEVER be acceptable...

including by you.

if you don't care about context then what exactly are you trying to argue? Numbers can't be looked at as if they are in a vacuum. especially in basketball

You're basically saying 17/7/7 on 50% shooting is the same as 17/7/7 on 35% shooting.

[FLDFSU]

If we are interested at all consistency, calling 2011 Wade a top 3 NBA player (he was)...but then excusing him from bringing home a title because Lebron "wet the bed" by contributing 17/7/7, and Bosh 18/7, is the height of trolling.

I have never understood calling Wade a "superstar" (he is), but then completely ignoring the fact that he failed to win a ring in 2011 and 2014 with Lebron and Bosh.

And the most GLARING HOLE in that logic, 2015 Wade missing the playoffs completely in "the weakest conference of all time."

If "superstar" Wade (part of the most stacked team of all time) wins 41 of the 66 games he played in this season we make the playoffs...

Even if we lose every single game that Wade misses in 2015, all Wade would have to do is go 41-25 and we make the playoffs..

Instead, "superstar" Wade, a player that ISH repeatedly held out as being "harmed" by "Lebron ball" is allowed to miss the playoffs (in the weak East mind you) and not one of you who jumped up and down about "stacked" Heat said a word...

[9erempiree]

A lot of players would have led that team to the Finals and won. That was a very balanced team.

[FLDFSU]

absolutely not. it depends on the context.

scoring 17/7/7 on a bad shooting percentage is indicative of a terrible performance on offense and not something anyone should be taking seriously. you analyze the numbers but not the details.


And the team needed the three of them to perform well, seeing how that team was built around the abilites of those three players. one of them plays way below their level and the Heat lose. not a surprise


i wonder how some people in the thread would think the 2011 Heat team wouldve done in the finals with Kobe(substituted for Lebron) averaging 27.6 ppg and playing the way he did during the earlier parts of the last NBA season?.....

The very definition of a non-stacked team...

If a team loses a 7 games series because all three of any particular three players did not play well...that team is not stacked. Basically, one player does not play well (or more accurately like a league MVP) IT IS INCONSISTENT to call said team "stacked."

Again, the reason why the Dream Team (a team that was "stacked" in the purest forms) was so stacked was because it did not require ANY one person to play well in order for them to win a 7 game series.

ANY one individual on the Dream Team could break their legs and they would still win= stacked.

Now ask yourself, does the same hold true for the 2011 Miami Heat? The answer is no.

[Crimsonrain777]

If we are interested at all consistency, calling 2011 Wade a top 3 NBA player (he was)...but then excusing him from bringing home a title because Lebron "wet the bed" by contributing 17/7/7, and Bosh 18/7, is the height of trolling.

I have never understood calling Wade a "superstar" (he is), but then completely ignoring the fact that he failed to win a ring in 2011 and 2014 with Lebron and Bosh.

And the most GLARING HOLE in that logic, 2015 Wade missing the playoffs completely in "the weakest conference of all time."

If "superstar" Wade (part of the most stacked team of all time) wins 41 of the 66 games he played in this season we make the playoffs...

Even if we lose every single game that Wade misses in 2015, all Wade would have to do is go 41-25 and we make the playoffs..

Instead, "superstar" Wade, a player that ISH repeatedly held out as being "harmed" by "Lebron ball" is allowed to miss the playoffs (in the weak East mind you) and not one of you who jumped up and down about "stacked" Heat said a word...

ive noticed two things from you so far.


1. you never consider specific situations when you try and argue the value of the numbers you present

and 2. your mind has been completely raped and warped by the trolls on this website and it's gotten to a point where you use their statements as the basis for your arguments:oldlol:


Wade hasn't been a superstar in a looooong time. To claim 2015 Wade is even close to that is disingenuous; and it shows that the only point of most of your post's is all just in attempt to one-up the trolls that have been giving you sleepless nights on ISH for god know's how long:applause:

[tpols]

The very definition of a non-stacked team...

If a team loses a 7 games series because all three of any particular three players did not play well...that team is not stacked. Basically, one player does not play well (or more accurately like a league MVP) IT IS INCONSISTENT to call said team "stacked."

Again, the reason why the Dream Team (a team that was "stacked" in the purest forms) was so stacked was because it did not require ANY one person to play well in order for them to win a 7 game series.

ANY one individual on the Dream Team could break their legs and they would still win= stacked.

Now ask yourself, does the same hold true for the 2011 Miami Heat? The answer is no.

Which team was more stacked in your opinion ?

2001 lakers or 2013 spurs?

[Crimsonrain777]

The very definition of a non-stacked team...

If a team loses a 7 games series because all three of any particular three players did not play well...that team is not stacked. Basically, one player does not play well (or more accurately like a league MVP) IT IS INCONSISTENT to call said team "stacked."

Again, the reason why the Dream Team (a team that was "stacked" in the purest forms) was so stacked was because it did not require ANY one person to play well in order for them to win a 7 game series.

ANY one individual on the Dream Team could break their legs and they would still win= stacked.

Now ask yourself, does the same hold true for the 2011 Miami Heat? The answer is no.

i would say that represents a team with no depth. depth and stacked are two different things. the 2015 GSW had depth but they werent necessarily stacked since they only had one legitimate superstar. the 2011 Heat was stacked. two superstars, one all-star.that team smashed other teams in before they were even comfortable with each other


edit: also the dream team was stacked and it had depth and they played internationally. a team like the dream team could not have been constructed within the NBA so you can't really use them as your definition of stacked in the NBA. in the context of the regular NBA, i see no problem with calling the 2011 Heat team stacked

[FLDFSU]

ive noticed two things from you so far.


1. you never consider specific situations when you try and argue the value of the numbers you present

and 2. your mind has been completely raped and warped by the trolls on this website and it's gotten to a point where you use their statements as the basis for your arguments:oldlol:


Wade hasn't been a superstar in a looooong time. To claim 2015 Wade is even close to that is disingenuous; and it shows that the only point of most of your post's is all just in attempt to one-up the trolls that have been giving you sleepless nights on ISH for god know's how long:applause:

Wade was called a superstar (not just by trolls) in 2014. Wade was part of the most stacked team of all time (not just by trolls) in 2014.

To excuse 2015 Wade, a player that if Lebron was still a teammate of would be called a superstar, of missing the playoffs WHILE at the SAME TIME crying about the East being historically weak, is disingenuous.

Again, if Wade (and Bosh) was as good as ISH (not just trolls) called him in 2014, 2015 Wade (and Bosh) should be more than enough to make the playoffs. Conversely, if the East was as bad as ISH (not just trolls) makes it out to be...2015 Wade (and Bosh) should have made the playoffs.


But instead ISH (not just trolls) create this parallel universe where the East is "the weakest conference of all time" therefore Lebron's accomplishments in it doesn't count, YET a team that was a year ago called "the most stacked team of all time" and that retains superstar Wade and Bosh, is not sufficient to make the playoffs in said "weak" conference.

[GIF REACTION]

Wade was called a superstar (not just by trolls) in 2014. Wade was part of the most stacked team of all time (not just by trolls) in 2014.

To excuse 2015 Wade, a player that if Lebron was still a teammate of would be called a superstar, of missing the playoffs WHILE at the SAME TIME crying about the East being historically weak, is disingenuous.

Again, if Wade (and Bosh) was as good as ISH (not just trolls) called him in 2014, 2015 Wade (and Bosh) should be more than enough to make the playoffs. Conversely, if the East was as bad as ISH (not just trolls) makes it out to be...2015 Wade (and Bosh) should have made the playoffs.


But instead ISH (not just trolls) create this parallel universe where the East is "the weakest conference of all time" therefore Lebron's accomplishments in it doesn't count, YET a team that was a year ago called "the most stacked team of all time" and that retains superstar Wade and Bosh, is not sufficient to make the playoffs in said "weak" conference.
:applause:

There is no excuse for the 2015 Miami Heat season,

Bosh was injured, but they got Deng, Dragic, Whiteside and a youthful bench

Even when healthy they were losing

There is no other explanation for the drop off from 2014 to 2015

Lebron left, that is the how/when/where/why