A comparison of 2004 and 2011 (Kobe and Lebron)...

[GIF REACTION]

Kobe (46.2 Minutes Per Game)

22.6 points on 38% FG
2.8 rebounds
4.4 assists
1.8 steals
0.6 blocks


Lebron (43.6 Minutes Per Game)

17.8 points on 48% FG
7.2 rebounds
6.8 assists
1.7 steals
0.5 blocks

In 5 games Kobe took 113 shots and made 43 of them.

In 6 games Lebron took 90 shots and made 43 of them.

Kobe had a usage rate of 30.4, highest on his team

Lebron had a usage rate of 22.9, third highest on his team

Both have good supporting casts, but I'd wager it is a slight upper hand in talent to The 04' Lakers... With 4 HOFers to Miam's 3.

So, in conclusion.... Kobe the higher usage rate (Highest on his team), inferior stats despite playing more minutes per game and losing in 5 games compared to Lebron's 6.

Well....

[GIF REACTION]

bump

[Quickening]

Lebron was the shock factor, consensus best player in the world comfortably, had completely dominated the playoffs.

Kobe isn't held up to the same standards so him having shitty shooting nights and not contributing assists or rebounds is not unexpected, see his final averages.

[Nashty]

LeBron choked, there's no doubt about it, but he was still better than Kobe in 2004.

[SexSymbol]

It's not the stats, LeBron's stats don't even look as dreadful as his performance was. What makes it the worst performance of all time is that he completely gave up, was scared to shoot or really do anything.
Kobe at least tried and tried, yeah, shots didn't go in, it was a bad performance, but he tried.
leBron straight up gave up.

07 vs 04 is a better comparison.
The chokes of 11/14 are in the league of their own

[GIF REACTION]

It's not the stats, LeBron's stats don't even look as dreadful as his performance was. What makes it the worst performance of all time is that he completely gave up, was scared to shoot or really do anything.
Kobe at least tried and tried, yeah, shots didn't go in, it was a bad performance, but he tried.
leBron straight up gave up.

07 vs 04 is a better comparison.
The chokes of 11/14 are in the league of their own
No

2004 and 2011 is the best comparison in regards to talent and result and somewhat individual performance to an extent

Kobe never had an NBA finals squad with as poor supporting cast as 07 14 and 15...

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe 2000 = LeBron 2007
Kobe 2004 = LeBron 2011

basically

4 of the WOAT finals performances by an ATG

Weird thing is, Kobe never really become a good finals performer, unlike LeBron

[SouBeachTalents]

The numbers don't tell the whole story for LeBron in 2011. Anyone who watched that series knows how FAR below his standards he played. Go back and watch the 4th quarters of those series, you won't even know he's in the game. Kobe was dreadful, but at least he helped them avoid a sweep in Game 2. If LeBron plays averagely the Heat probably sweep the Mavs with ease

[GIF REACTION]

The numbers don't tell the whole story for LeBron in 2011. Anyone who watched that series knows how FAR below his standards he played. Go back and watch the 4th quarters of those series, you won't even know he's in the game. Kobe was dreadful, but at least he helped them avoid a sweep in Game 2. If LeBron plays averagely the Heat probably sweep the Mavs with ease
No one is denying the chokes that occurred

Just that Kobe's was far far worse despite having a better supporting cast...

Lebron choked in the 4th quarters

Kobe choked in every quarter

[fiddy]

Kobe 2000 = LeBron 2007
Kobe 2004 = LeBron 2011

basically

4 of the WOAT finals performances by an ATG

Weird thing is, Kobe never really become a good finals performer, unlike LeBron
:roll:

[GIF REACTION]

But really I guess Quickening said it best...

Kobe is not on Lebron's level... His level of standards and expectations... Never has... Never will be... Lebron has been the chosen one since middle school....

[SouBeachTalents]

:roll:

LeBron's Finals stats are actually close to his regular season & playoff performances than Kobe's are

LeBron
RS: 27/7/7 50%
PO: 28/9/7 47%
F: 27/9/7 46%

Kobe
RS: 27/6/5 46%
PO: 27/5/5 45%
F: 25/6/5 42%

[GIF REACTION]

LeBron's Finals stats are actually close to his regular season & playoff performances than Kobe's are

LeBron
RS: 27/7/7 50%
PO: 28/9/7 47%
F: 27/9/7 46%

Kobe
RS: 27/6/5 46%
PO: 27/5/5 45%
F: 25/6/5 42%
Since that slow start in 2013, Lebron has been putting up insane numbers in the finals... His teammates in that stretch must have some shit ass records

[SexSymbol]

I'm trying not to step into dog shit now that all these meltdowns are happening here

[ArbitraryWater]

:roll:

you don't think he's been amazing in the finals since 2012? No worries, the majority does :cheers:

[Quickening]

So Lebron averages more ppg, rebounds and assists in the finals on better efficiency than Kobe and people call him a bigger choker?

The power that hatred/and team achievements have over peoples perceptions of a players ability.

[GIF REACTION]

Kobe boys avoiding this thread like the plague

Get your ass in here Jabbar you pencil neck dweeb!

[fiddy]

LeBron's Finals stats are actually close to his regular season & playoff performances than Kobe's are

LeBron
RS: 27/7/7 50%
PO: 28/9/7 47%
F: 27/9/7 46%

Kobe
RS: 27/6/5 46%
PO: 27/5/5 45%
F: 25/6/5 42%
:roll:
Care to explain why Bran couldnt make a jumper outside of 10 feet against the GSW? Not to mention that he didnt get called for the tens of offensive fouls he committed by pushing his defender with his free hand while driving. Lebron is an overrated joke on steroids only cheered by immature kids like AW.

[Quickening]

:roll:
Care to explain why Bran couldnt make a jumper outside of 10 feet against the GSW? Not to mention that he didnt get called for the tens of offensive fouls he committed by pushing his defender with his free hand why driving. Lebron is an overrated joke on steroids only cheered by immature kids like AW.

meltdown

[GIF REACTION]

:roll:
Care to explain why Bran couldnt make a jumper outside of 10 feet against the GSW? Not to mention that he didnt get called for the tens of offensive fouls he committed by pushing his defender with his free hand why driving. Lebron is an overrated joke on steroids only cheered by immature kids like AW.
meltdown

[fiddy]

meltdown
single digit IQ Bran stan, has no response? what a surprise :rolleyes: :oldlol:

[GIF REACTION]

single digit IQ Bran stan, has no response? what a surprise :rolleyes: :oldlol:
http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

:roll:
Care to explain why Bran couldnt make a jumper outside of 10 feet against the GSW? Not to mention that he didnt get called for the tens of offensive fouls he committed by pushing his defender with his free hand while driving. Lebron is an overrated joke on steroids only cheered by immature kids like AW.

Why are you the guys melting down when Bran just went 2 of 6 :lol

[fiddy]

Why are you the guys melting down when Bran just went 2 of 6 :lol
:biggums:

[dubeta]

So Kobe scored more, but LeBron was more efficient, and had far more rebounds and assists as well??


How is this even a debate?? :facepalm




Thats even before arguing that Shaq was still >> Wade

[fiddy]

How is this even a debate?? :facepalm

5/7>2/6

Got it chump?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:biggums:

LeBron fans have been malfunctioning after June... Where the hell is silk to patch these boys up? :facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron fans have been malfunctioning after June... Where the hell is silk to patch these boys up? :facepalm

you been online this whole time and try to take a passive aggressive hit 40 minutes after the post? broo :roll:

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/QEB4Scr_zpsngx45eab.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/MaleRuler/media/GIFs/QEB4Scr_zpsngx45eab.gif.html)

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

you been online this whole time and try to take a passive aggressive hit 40 minutes after the post? broo :roll:

See what I mean? Apparently 36 = 40 to these things.

Yo silk...where you at nigguh? We need a reset button asap :biggums:

[Bandito]

LeBron choked, there's no doubt about it, but he was still better than Kobe in 2004.
Hi Arbitrary Water/32******s.

[Rose'sACL]

both choked.......kobe wasn't held to the same standards as lebron so lebron's choke was/is talked about more.

[Genaro]

Kobe faced the best defense of all time while his starting PF was hurt. Lakers were basically Shaq and Kobe. No one could guard Billups as well.

[Bankaii]

Both choked horribly, but I'd rather have Bron understand he sucks and stand in the corner than Kobe literally brick the series away. Either way neither Kobe nor Lebron fans can talk. Kobe fans avoiding this thread tho.

[Magic 32]

Let's see if someone can find a Kobe moment in the 2004 finals that is more unforgivable than this...


You are down 2-3 against the inferior team, and it's all because of you.

You have no injuries, no distractions, home court, in your prime, the best player in the series is your teammate, the opposing star can't hit a shot, you have a 9 point lead, and you have made the first 4 shots in the game.

Then you take 11 shots in the last 44 minutes and basically quits.

[Hey Yo]

Let's see if someone can find a Kobe moment in the 2004 finals that is more unforgivable than this...


You are down 2-3 against the inferior team, and it's all because of you.

You have no injuries, no distractions, home court, in your prime, the best player in the series is your teammate, the opposing star can't hit a shot, you have a 9 point lead, and you have made the first 4 shots of the game.

Then you take 11 shots in the last 44 minutes of the game and basically quits.

https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/lebron-james-6-of-the-miami-heat-walks-off-the-court-after-the-dallas-mavericks-won-105-95-in-game-six-of-the-2011-nba-finals-at-american-airlines-arena-on-june-12-2011-in-miami-fl1.jpeg?w=320
How about, before tipoff game 1 and player already has his mind made up and knows what his agenda is.

"I'm going to purposely deny the best player on my team the ball and try to win a FMVP by myself. I don't give a flying **** what my coach or teammates think. It's going to be all about me this Finals.

[Magic 32]

How about, before tipoff game 1 and player already has his mind made up and knows what his agenda is.

"I'm going to purposely deny the best player on my team the ball and try to win a FMVP by myself. I don't give a flying **** what my coach or teammates think. It's going to be all about me this Finals.

Is that why Kobe took 13 shots in game 3 (after going 14-27 in game 2)

Seems to go against Kobe's plan in your head.

[Mr Feeny]

LeBron's Finals stats are actually close to his regular season & playoff performances than Kobe's are

LeBron
RS: 27/7/7 50%
PO: 28/9/7 47%
F: 27/9/7 46%

Kobe
RS: 27/6/5 46%
PO: 27/5/5 45%
F: 25/6/5 42%


Could anyone tell me what Lebron's finals career stats are not including 2007 and 2011 ( that is, 2012 onwards)?

Thx

[coast2coast]

Kobe faced the best defense of all time while his starting PF was hurt. Lakers were basically Shaq and Kobe. No one could guard Billups as well.

Actually, Detroit isn't even Top 10.

As far as guarding Billups, wasn't Bryant all NBA 1st team defense? I guess it goes to show how meaningless those awards are.

[GIF REACTION]

bump

[jlip]

This comparison is a tale of two diametrical opposites. If Kobe had done more deferring in the '04 Finals the Lakers may have fared better. If Lebron had done less deferring in the '11 Finals the Heat may have fared better.

[SexSymbol]

Actually, Detroit isn't even Top 10.

As far as guarding Billups, wasn't Bryant all NBA 1st team defense? I guess it goes to show how meaningless those awards are.
04 detroit isn't top 10 defensive team ever? Seriously?
:wtf:

[coast2coast]

04 detroit isn't top 10 defensive team ever? Seriously?
:wtf:

Based on DRtg, they are #14 all-time.

[BBallZen83]

It's not the stats, LeBron's stats don't even look as dreadful as his performance was. What makes it the worst performance of all time is that he completely gave up, was scared to shoot or really do anything.
Kobe at least tried and tried, yeah, shots didn't go in, it was a bad performance, but he tried.
leBron straight up gave up.

07 vs 04 is a better comparison.
The chokes of 11/14 are in the league of their own

:facepalm .... He didn't choke in '14... His entire fuking team did around him.

[BBallZen83]

Is that why Kobe took 13 shots in game 3 (after going 14-27 in game 2)

Seems to go against Kobe's plan in your head.

Or you could just look at the series as a whole, and see that Kobe had an agenda to "be the man", and win the FMVP, because he was tired of being second banana to Shaq.

Yeah, Lakers probably weren't going to win in '04 anyways, but Kobe played to the detriment of his team due to ego.

[Magic 32]

Or you could just look at the series as a whole, and see that Kobe had an agenda to "be the man", and win the FMVP, because he was tired of being second banana to Shaq.

Yeah, Lakers probably weren't going to win in '04 anyways, but Kobe played to the detriment of his team due to ego.

Kobe took 0.6 more shots than he did against the Spurs in the same playoff run. And no seemed to complain then.

And again, why would you take 13 shots after you were the hero of the previous game? Especially if you dead set on winning the FMVP?

It's nonsense.

[BBallZen83]

Kobe took 0.6 more shots than he did against the Spurs in the same playoff run. And no seemed to complain then.

And again, why would you take 13 shots after you were the hero of the previous game? Especially if you dead set on winning the FMVP?

It's nonsense.

Use the eye test, like you guys do for Lebron. It was obvious.

[9erempiree]

Crazy how people try to use stats in their favor. Anyone who has watched that '11 Finals will say Lebron choked.

Like I mentioned many many moons ago, Lebron stat pads because to avoid blame and this is another instance when fans that didn't watch the games resort to stats.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Weird thing is, Kobe never really become a good finals performer, unlike LeBron


Has lebron ever averaged 30 & 7 in the finals while actually winning?

or has he only been able to that while being an inefficient chucker who got locked up by a bench player..


Has lebron ever shot 50% in the finals while actually winning?

or has he only been able to that while cherry picking his shots and leading his team to the biggest finals beat down in history?

just wondering..

[GIF REACTION]

It's not a question of if they choked or not... They both choked

Lebron has always had higher expectation... People expect more from him because he is of higher quality...

If you measure the level of chokes in relativity to the expectations of each player... Yeah maybe Lebron might have choked a little more than Kobe...

But that is only so because Kobe is a cancerous shot jacking guard and that is what we would expect of him

Realistically, Lebron played better than Kobe did.

If you follow the narratives and what not, you are missing the point. The paint is on the wall.

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe (46.2 Minutes Per Game)

22.6 points on 38% FG
2.8 rebounds
4.4 assists
1.8 steals
0.6 blocks


Lebron (43.6 Minutes Per Game)

17.8 points on 48% FG
7.2 rebounds
6.8 assists
1.7 steals
0.5 blocks

In 5 games Kobe took 113 shots and made 43 of them.

In 6 games Lebron took 90 shots and made 43 of them.

Kobe had a usage rate of 30.4, highest on his team

Lebron had a usage rate of 22.9, third highest on his team

Both have good supporting casts, but I'd wager it is a slight upper hand in talent to The 04' Lakers... With 4 HOFers to Miam's 3.

So, in conclusion.... Kobe the higher usage rate (Highest on his team), inferior stats despite playing more minutes per game and losing in 5 games compared to Lebron's 6.

Well....
Ether bro.

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Ether bro.
:coleman: :biggums: Isnt that u?:coleman:

[Im Still Ballin]

No that was JohnFreeman

[Dray n Klay]

It's not a question of if they choked or not... They both choked

Lebron has always had higher expectation... People expect more from him because he is of higher quality...

If you measure the level of chokes in relativity to the expectations of each player... Yeah maybe Lebron might have choked a little more than Kobe...

But that is only so because Kobe is a cancerous shot jacking guard and that is what we would expect of him

Realistically, Lebron played better than Kobe did.

If you follow the narratives and what not, you are missing the point. The paint is on the wall.

R.I.P Gif Reaction


Hopefully, you're still out there

[ImKobe]

4th quarter scoring

Kobe 11/26
Lebron 4/16

Lebron's team had more help and faced a weaker opponent and CHOKED

Kobe's team was facing injuries to Kobe himself (torn shoulder against the Wolves in the Conference Finals) and Karl Malone (knee injury at age 40? finished)

Pistons defense played Shaq straight-up, if he got a good look they lived with it as long as they were outscoring the Lakers


Our game plan was very calculated. We knew we were going to play Shaq straight-up. We knew there was no way we could stop Shaq straight-up. And there was also no way we could stop Kobe straight-up. But, if we’re going to play Shaq straight-up, [the Lakers'] eyes are going to get big, which means they’re going to keep throwing it down there. We’re telling Ben the whole time, "Take fouls when you need to, but don’t get yourself into foul trouble. You need to give up a layup, cool, we’re going to get what we want on the other side." But what’s going to happen is Mr. Bryant is going to get a little discouraged with getting no touches and now the second half comes around…now he’s pressing. He’s going to start coming down and just breaking the offense. When you do that, you’re done—you’re playing right into our hands. Even if you start making those shots, you’re finished.

Haslem produced more than Karl Malone
Chalmers produced more than Fisher and Payton COMBINED
Wade produced better than Shaq
Bosh put up 19 points per game

Lebron was the most healthiest and youngest of the BIG 3 and he took the least shots?

Why is that? Was he being double-teamed and forced to give up the ball?

No.

He passed up the ball because Dallas played zone defense and forced him to shoot open long-range jump shots.

Anyone who actually knows something about the game and isn't completely biased can agree on these points

1. Lebron had a better team - the team was healthy
2. The 2004 Pistons were a better team than The 2011 Mavericks
3. Kobe produced more in 4th quarters than Lebron
4. Kobe's team was a Kobe game-tying 3 away from getting swept in a one-sided series

Refute ANY of these 4 points with logical explanations, I'd love to hear them.

[Smay84]

This is only a comparison because of their horrible numbers..anyone with half a brain should figure out that GP was finished like Malone and the Pistons were just a better team..Miami on the other hand clearly was a better team than Dallas

[Disaprine]

at least kirby was in the game, while lebronze turn to ghost mode. :lol

[livinglegend]

at least kirby was in the game, while lebronze turn to ghost mode. :lol

So ghost mode Lebron put up better numbers than prime Kobe :lol

[Disaprine]

So ghost mode Lebron put up better numbers than prime Kobe :lol
barely, :lol

kobe tried to do something, while lebron turn in casper the flopping ghost.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lol at Kobe and LeBron fans rationalizing their guys performances. Both spoke to their issues as players.

Kobe tried real hard, played poorly, yes. But he did so for selfish reasons. Glory hound. Wanted Finals MVP over Shaq, was over aggressive and too stubborn not to take advantage of what the defense was giving him and the Lakers.

LeBron had better overall numbers, but his play was more shocking and had even less impact. He was partially selfish by obviously pouting due to Wade being the number 1 performing guy that series. But his issues in the 2011 Finals speaks to his flaws as a player. He's kind of a coward and he visibly quit in the series or seemed disinterested.

They're both very poor cringe worthy performances on the biggest stage for entirely different reasons.

[MEB2kDeez]

Lol at Kobe and LeBron fans rationalizing their guys performances. Both spoke to their issues as players.

Kobe tried real hard, played poorly, yes. But he did so for selfish reasons. Glory hound. Wanted Finals MVP over Shaq, was over aggressive and too stubborn not to take advantage of what the defense was giving him and the Lakers.

LeBron had better overall numbers, but his play was more shocking and had even less impact. He was partially selfish by obviously pouting due to Wade being the number 1 performing guy that series. But his issues in the 2011 Finals speaks to his flaws as a player. He's kind of a coward and he visibly quit in the series or seemed disinterested.

They're both very poor cringe worthy performances on the biggest stage for entirely different reasons.

Preach :applause:

[Hey Yo]

Lol at Kobe and LeBron fans rationalizing their guys performances. Both spoke to their issues as players.

Kobe tried real hard, played poorly, yes. But he did so for selfish reasons. Glory hound. Wanted Finals MVP over Shaq, was over aggressive and too stubborn not to take advantage of what the defense was giving him and the Lakers.

LeBron had better overall numbers, but his play was more shocking and had even less impact. He was partially selfish by obviously pouting due to Wade being the number 1 performing guy that series. But his issues in the 2011 Finals speaks to his flaws as a player. He's kind of a coward and he visibly quit in the series or seemed disinterested.

They're both very poor cringe worthy performances on the biggest stage for entirely different reasons.
He led the team twice in scoring and recorded a triple double in another game.

Plus after having a shitty series, he still ended up leading the entire postseason in win shares.