Are we going to act like the 1989 & 1990 Bulls wouldn't beat 2015 Hawks? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

06-28-2015, 08:35 PM

Playing the Hawks required both elite scoring and elite playmaking, something Jordan cannot do.

Anytime MJ decided to employ the same ball-dominance as Lebron, he proved his passing ability was superior - and it's not just the 1991 Finals, when he averaged more APG in a playoff series (11.4) than Lebron ever has.

When MJ was forced to play point guard for the last 24 games of the 1989 season, he averaged 31/9/11 on 51% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-346-sum:pgl_basic), including a stretch of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games) (one of those triple doubles was in 21 minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBMxQSbbFGk) )..

Lebron has NEVER passed on this level during his entire career as a ball-dominator - those are the facts.. In b4 someone posts about Lebron averaging an inferior 28/8/10 on 46% with no triple-double stretch, over a shorter span - that's not nearly as good.

beat the Hawks defense was crucial, which the Bulls could not do.

Except the Hawks played zero defense - their DRtg against the Cavs was 114.0.. Yet Lebron only got 30 PPG on 43.8%..

Whereas MJ averaged 31 PPG on 47% against Detroit's GOAT defense in 1989 and 1990 playoffs.. And against Atlanta, MJ wouldn't face the Jordan Rules (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GYKrcM1k0U&t=1m14s), or Rodman and Dumars.. He'd face Carroll, Korver, and wouldn't get doubled AT ALL if Collins opted to isolate MJ the same way Blatt did for Lebron against Atlanta (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570).

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

06-28-2015, 08:41 PM

Who was questioning that? lol.

Those Bulls would have gored them birds to death.

3ball

06-29-2015, 08:44 AM

Who was acting like that? lol.

Those Bulls would have gored those birds to death.

And therefore, if MJ faced Atlanta in 1989 and 1990 ECF instead of the Bad Boys, MJ would've led one of the weakest supporting casts of all time to the Finals.

That's the benefit of playing in a weak conference.. Too bad MJ played in one of the very toughest ones, and therefore had to face the Bad Boys instead of cream puff Atlanta.

I guess that's why even ESPN of all places, exposed the aforementioned weaker competition:
http://i.imgur.com/CIu6gDI.jpg
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sdot_thadon

06-29-2015, 09:28 AM

Nope. Zone. That's all.

atljonesbro

06-29-2015, 09:33 AM

True those Bulls teams were absolutely stacked. How was Jordan 1-9 before Pippen :oldlol:

dontgetchoked

06-29-2015, 10:48 AM

True those Bulls teams were absolutely stacked. How was Jordan 1-9 before Pippen :oldlol:
How did the Hawks get the number one seed and then get swept?

sdot_thadon

06-29-2015, 10:50 AM

True those Bulls teams were absolutely stacked. How was Jordan 1-9 before Pippen :oldlol:
Right, can't have it both ways. Either the bulls pretty much flat out weren't good enough or he wasn't. Can't have it both ways though.

Oh and as a bonus question are you taking the 3rd best player off the bulls and only getting a couple of games of the 2nd best player?

3ball

06-29-2015, 11:05 AM

Nope. Zone. That's all.

Spacing (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11525660&postcount=146).. That is all.. Oh, and legal paint-camping (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11498625&postcount=31) obv

Derka

06-29-2015, 11:05 AM

Pretty sure the Monstars would have beaten the 2015 Hawks.

Da_Realist

06-29-2015, 11:06 AM

Kobe_6/8

06-29-2015, 11:18 AM

ISH would take the 2015 Hawks to 7 games.

sdot_thadon

06-29-2015, 12:30 PM

Spacing (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11525660&postcount=146).. That is all.. Oh, and legal paint-camping (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11498625&postcount=31) obv
At times I admire your effort, but in doing all the shit you do to make a point you overlook the smallest things. Purposely I might ad. This isn't the same era as 89 or 90. Mj never had to operate against legal zones with that team. The lack of floor spacers would kill alot of his action in the modern game. Also if we're talking 89 collins is still coach and still trying to pry the ball out of his hands. The triangle was implemented with phil and supposedly he doesnt buy in until the chip season. So no "greatest off ball passing" either those yrs lol. No to mention missing grant in 90 or cartwright in 89 and only having scottie for some of the games. Not happening buddy. Supposedly Mj couldn't do anything before 91 because of his team. Now you're here to tell me his team could beat a 60 win squad without the 3rd best player and a hobbled pippen....carry on.

3ball

06-29-2015, 12:43 PM

The lack of floor spacers would kill alot of MJ's action in the modern game.

Today's game has a lack of floor-spacers?... Put down the crack pipe.

It's the opposite... Today's game HAS spacing, which MJ would benefit from.. The most important benefit of spacing is weakside spacing, which reduces the number of strongside defenders.. Weakside spacing is the only reason the "flooding" is needed - defenders must be flooded back to the strongside, after initially being drawn away by weakside spacing.

Otoh, weakside spacing didn't exist in previous eras, so defenders weren't lured away from the strongside - defenders just remained on the strongside, which meant players faced strongsides that were already flooded with all 5 defenders (5-defender strongsides) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21).

These fully-flooded strongsides were a product of no-spacing and represented the "advanced" version of the game that included hand-checking, higher physicality, narrower lanes, legal paint-camping and packed paints, which therefore required more sophisticated 2-point shooting ability.

This is a stark contrast to today's weakside spacing and resulting 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570), which is basically the "beginner" version of the game that includes less strongside defenders, no hand-checking, no physicality, wider lanes no paint-camping and wide open paints..

The aforementioned sophisticated 2-point shooting ability (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11021030&postcount=6) that was necessary to mitigate the no-spacing of previous eras, is not necessary in the contemporary "beginner" environment.
.

3ball

06-29-2015, 01:25 PM

Mj never had to operate against legal zones with that team.

Today's game does not allow zone inside the paint.. Inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area, defenders have to remain within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man (about 3 feet) at all times.

Otoh, defenders in previous eras were allowed to stay in the paint when their man was far out of armslength - Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to stand in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere in the paint, or within 3 feet of either side.

To summarize - defenders in today's game aren't allowed to stand in the paint when there's no one else around, while previous era defenders could.

However, to your point, defenders ARE allowed to zone outside the paint - but only outside the paint.. And the tradeoff is the aforementioned paint-camping ban - big men are forced to come OUT of their wheelhouse (the paint) to contest guards in THEIR wheelhouse, the perimeter.. Even Austin Rivers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374490) can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims.

Of course, previous eras shaded heavily in screen-roll situations too (seen below) - MJ destroyed these situations, but he had to pull-up for more jumpers, because the paint was not open after the screen roll like it is with today's spacing - in MJ's day, after the screen-roll, the paint would still be crowded because there was no spacing to draw everyone to the perimeter:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8
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sdot_thadon

06-29-2015, 01:46 PM

Today's game has a lack of floor-spacers?... Put down the crack pipe.

It's the opposite... Today's game HAS spacing, which MJ would benefit from.. The most important benefit of spacing is weakside spacing, which reduces the number of strongside defenders.. Weakside spacing is the only reason the "flooding" is needed - defenders must be flooded back to the strongside, after initially being drawn away by weakside spacing.

Otoh, weakside spacing didn't exist in previous eras, so defenders weren't lured away from the strongside - defenders just remained on the strongside, which meant players faced strongsides that were already flooded with all 5 defenders (5-defender strongsides) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21).

These fully-flooded strongsides were a product of no-spacing and represented the "advanced" version of the game that included hand-checking, higher physicality, narrower lanes, legal paint-camping and packed paints, which therefore required more sophisticated 2-point shooting ability.

This is a stark contrast to today's weakside spacing and resulting 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570), which is basically the "beginner" version of the game that includes less strongside defenders, no hand-checking, no physicality, wider lanes no paint-camping and wide open paints..

The aforementioned sophisticated 2-point shooting ability (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11021030&postcount=6) that was necessary to mitigate the no-spacing of previous eras, is not necessary in the contemporary "beginner" environment.
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:biggums: see what I mean, you did all this to get around this:

The 89 or 90 bulls playing today wouldn't provide enough floor spacing. Nobody said shit about spacing in today's game.:coleman:

sdot_thadon

06-29-2015, 01:48 PM

Also no sport goes backwards in terms of technique or quality as time passes. They evolve so I really doubt this whole superior inferior shtick you kick around all day.

kshutts1

06-29-2015, 01:55 PM

And therefore, if MJ faced Atlanta in 1989 and 1990 ECF instead of the Bad Boys, MJ would've led one of the weakest supporting casts of all time to the Finals.

That's the benefit of playing in a weak conference.. Too bad MJ played in one of the very toughest ones, and therefore had to face the Bad Boys instead of cream puff Atlanta.

I guess that's why even ESPN of all places, exposed the aforementioned weaker competition:
http://i.imgur.com/CIu6gDI.jpg
.
I didn't realize anyone was questioning this. Are you trying to copy your god by making up "slights" so that you can get angry and go on posting sprees?

In fact, if I remember correctly, ISH was pretty unanimous in saying that Jordan couldn't win the title with the Cavs roster, just like Lebron couldn't. That's the only time I remember it being discussed, and I still stand by that.

SwayDizzle

06-29-2015, 03:28 PM

What the hell? The 89 and 90 Bulls would have destroyed the Hawks.

Showtime80'

06-29-2015, 03:58 PM

sdot_thadon

06-29-2015, 05:08 PM

A sport or a league can easily go backwards when they sell their soul and principles regarding technique and fundamentals in place of flash and entertainment (Jordan effect) See the NCAA for example, does anybody in their right mind think the basketball being played in that level is anywhere near that of the 80's to early 90's! See Brazilian soccer as another example, good luck finding a new generation as good as the one in the 1970's or mid to late 90's.

The players before 1990 cut their teeth playing 3 to 4 years against a true physical zone with no 3 point shot and packed in paints against the top level competition the NCAA offered at the time! Even then the top teams and players still rose to the top. Michael Jordan was 2 time player of the year against those zones playing without a 3 point line, limited minutes and an inconsistent jump shot. What would the 1990 version do against the modern NBA softer version of that scheme?!?

The NBA's supposed modern zone is basically a bastardized version of the true zone that had ALWAYS been played in college by putting in the 3 second rule and eliminating hand checking to open the lane for the guard-centric offenses that were becoming so prevalent.

Guys like Michael, Magic, Bird and Isiah dominated an NBA that didn't cater their rules for perimeter players. In a league were Steph Curry and a bunch of jump shooting role players can win 66 games and a title it leaves little doubt in my mind that the more traditionally build teams of the past with solid inside and mid range games as their foundation and every other aspect including 3 point shorting stemming from that would absolutely own the limited softer teams of today.

Put these years Hawks in the 1988 East, are they even top 6 or 7?
I don't really have any problem with what you said. Only thing I feel is omitted is this generation prioritizes different skills, for a different style of ball. Some things that were necessary to survive the 80s is not necessary in the modern nba. At the same token today's role players have considerably more talent than those days.

You have bench warmers that can perform moves that only Mj and maybe a couple others could pull off in his era. You have 7 ft ball handlers now as a norm when before it may have started and ended with magic and bird almost. Big men with soft shooting touches are far more common as well. Don't today's elite defenders have to work harder and be a bit better at what they do to get similar results without the ability to whack guys and wrestle them in most cases? I always hear guys say, you can't touch guys now days. We'll that means the defenders have to be better at what they do I'd assume....

I'm sure there are some players with a more 80s or even 90s centric skill set but those guys are less likely to cut it in today's league. If you track back each era I'm sure players all benefit from watching the previous generation. The 70s into 80s into 90s broadening of bigmen isn't just a coincidence. The only reason the improvement dried up is the rules changed, and the game along with it. Today's game is still a quality game and a skilled game. Just emphasizes different skills from eras we grew up in.

3ball

06-29-2015, 05:14 PM

Jordan couldn't win the title with the Cavs roster, just like Lebron couldn't.... I stand by that

You can stand by whatever you want - MJ isn't shooting 39.8% against the Warriors, regardless of coverage, let alone single-coverage and cleared-out strongsides.

Don't ignore the stats - Lebron's isolation stats (.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1) prove MJ would shoot much better - Lebron isolated on 32.7% of his possessions in the playoffs, which led the league and represented his most-used offensive attack.. Accordingly, his below-average 33.1% FG on these isolations was the biggest factor driving his overall FG%..

Since Lebron's poor isolation ability drove his poor overall efficiency, we can assume MJ's GOAT isolation ability would result in a far better shooting percentage.

(keep in mind, the above logic IGNORES the empirical evidence showing that MJ shot far better percentages against 5-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21), as opposed to the 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570) that Lebron shot so poorly against).
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Showtime80'

06-29-2015, 06:42 PM

And therein lies the biggest myth in the modern NBA "Rule changes killed the inside game" WRONG! The post game started decaying around the mid 90's (Jordan effect) 7 to 8 years before the all mighty rule changes came into play, how many truly dominant offensive post players (not just centers) came into the league after Tim Duncan came into the league in 1996?!? A full 6 years before the rule changes.

The NBA were FORCED into altering the rules due to the fact that you had a league full of perimeter oriented teams being led by just 2 or sometimes even 1 legit scoring threat as opposed to the 80's when contending teams needed 3 to 4. They league basically made it easer for these teams to operate because the offensive systems became unwatchable.

In essence, the present NBA might be overall more athletic but the 80's NBA was BY FAR more skilled and fundamentally sound thanks to solid coaching and staying 3 to 4 years in the pro ranks. The game in the 80's had EVERYTHING, not just layups and 3 pointers like you have now, Your phrase " even role players today can do MJ moves" gives credence to what I say. Give me fundamentally sound role player like Rick Mahorn, Kurt Rambis or Scott Weddman versus any of the

sdot_thadon

06-29-2015, 07:07 PM

[QUOTE=Showtime80']And therein lies the biggest myth in the modern NBA "Rule changes killed the inside game" WRONG! The post game started decaying around the mid 90's (Jordan effect) 7 to 8 years before the all mighty rule changes came into play, how many truly dominant offensive post players (not just centers) came into the league after Tim Duncan came into the league in 1996?!? A full 6 years before the rule changes.

The NBA were FORCED into altering the rules due to the fact that you had a league full of perimeter oriented teams being led by just 2 or sometimes even 1 legit scoring threat as opposed to the 80's when contending teams needed 3 to 4. They league basically made it easer for these teams to operate because the offensive systems became unwatchable.

In essence, the present NBA might be overall more athletic but the 80's NBA was BY FAR more skilled and fundamentally sound thanks to solid coaching and staying 3 to 4 years in the pro ranks. The game in the 80's had EVERYTHING, not just layups and 3 pointers like you have now, Your phrase " even role players today can do MJ moves" gives credence to what I say. Give me fundamentally sound role player like Rick Mahorn, Kurt Rambis or Scott Weddman versus any of the

ShackEelOKneel

06-29-2015, 07:08 PM

The Bulls 1-man army at the time was called "MJ and the Jordanaires", but they played optimally enough, and MJ was good enough, that they took the champion Bad Boys to 6 and 7 games in 1989 and 1990, respectively.

If they can take the Bad Boys to 6 and 7 games, surely they would beat the Hawks just like the Cavs did right?

The Hawks played ZERO defense against the Cavs - their DRtg against the Cavs was 114.0.. Whereas the Bad Boys defense was possibly GOAT.

Against Atlanta, MJ wouldn't face the Jordan Rules (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GYKrcM1k0U&t=1m14s), or Rodman and Dumars.. He'd face Carroll, Korver, and wouldn't get doubled AT ALL if Collins opted to isolate MJ the same way Blatt did for Lebron against Atlanta (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570).

Do you make any non-obvious threads?

3ball

06-29-2015, 08:10 PM

Today's role players can do MJ moves

Most players in ANY era can do a Jordan move once or twice a year.

Like, I remember seeing Kawhi do a MJ fadeaway and it was on Sportscenter Top 10 because the move faked out the defender a little.

And I was just thinking "wow, that play of the night was MJ's standard game.. He made 6 or 7 of those every night."

So forget the once-a-year type moves that most players in ANY era get - only one guys does those moves all the time - that was Jordan's STANDARD GAME:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10861649&postcount=3

I sort of agree that the Jordan era ruined the following era for all intents and purposes, simply because teams sought to emulate an anomally.

What do you mean by "anomaly"... If you're saying athletic wings, then you should look at this comprehensive list of athletic wings from MJ's era:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11401488&postcount=43

all the expansion teams since the 80s and see how stacked all the rosters would become.

Exactly - today's game has 30 teams and 450 players...

Whereas in 1985, there were 20 teams and 300 players - so the bottom 150 players from today's game wouldn't make the NBA in 1985 (when MJ entered the league).

The rise of the 3 point shot as a weapon and an outlet to combat modern defense is why the game is the way it is currently.

3-point shooting combats ANY defense, in any era.

When the 3-point shot isn't used, it means players don't enjoy the spacing today's player enjoys.. So if Steph Curry went back to the 80's, none of his teammates would be spreading the floor for him and he'd face the same no-spacing as everyone else.. No-spacing makes it HARDER on offense - this is a fact, so offense would be harder for Steph..

Also, without spacing or 3-point shooting, there is no drive-and-kick, so Steph's looks would be harder to get.. After all, drive and kick is a modern invention, predicated on actually having 3-point shooters to kick it out to.

Btw, without 3-point shooting, there's no spacing, and without spacing, you don't need any of today's defensive schemes... That's a fact.. i.e. you don't need to flood the strongside when the lack of weakside spacing means all 5 defenders are already on the strongside.

You don't feel perimeter defenders have to be better at man defense to remain elite when they can't use their hands and physicality as much as previous eras? That's a skill as well.

Moving your feet was ALLOWED in previous eras, you know that right?

Previous eras could do BOTH - use feet and hands - but today, only feet.

Now which one has the advantage?... The era that can do both, or the era that is only permitted to do one?

Stop deluding yourself with dumb logic that ends up biting you in the ass because it's dumb logic.
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sdot_thadon

06-29-2015, 08:58 PM

Most players in ANY era can do a Jordan move once or twice a year.

Like, I remember seeing Kawhi do a MJ fadeaway and it was on Sportscenter Top 10 because the move faked out the defender a little.

And I was just thinking "wow, that play of the night was MJ's standard game.. He made 6 or 7 of those every night."

So forget the once-a-year type moves that most players in ANY era get - only one guys does those moves all the time - that was Jordan's STANDARD GAME:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10861649&postcount=3

What do you mean by "anomaly"... If you're saying athletic wings, then you should look at this comprehensive list of athletic wings from MJ's era:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11401488&postcount=43

Exactly - today's game has 30 teams and 450 players...

Whereas in 1985, there were 20 teams and 300 players - so the bottom 150 players from today's game wouldn't make the NBA in 1985 (when MJ entered the league).

3-point shooting combats ANY defense, in any era.

When the 3-point shot isn't used, it means players don't enjoy the spacing today's player enjoys.. So if Steph Curry went back to the 80's, none of his teammates would be spreading the floor for him and he'd face the same no-spacing as everyone else.. No-spacing makes it HARDER on offense - this is a fact, so offense would be harder for Steph..

Also, without spacing or 3-point shooting, there is no drive-and-kick, so Steph's looks would be harder to get.. After all, drive and kick is a modern invention, predicated on actually having 3-point shooters to kick it out to.

Btw, without 3-point shooting, there's no spacing, and without spacing, you don't need any of today's defensive schemes... That's a fact.. i.e. you don't need to flood the strongside when the lack of weakside spacing means all 5 defenders are already on the strongside.

Moving your feet was ALLOWED in previous eras, you know that right?

Previous eras could do BOTH - use feet and hands - but today, only feet.

Now which one has the advantage?... The era that can do both, or the era that is only permitted to do one?

Stop deluding yourself with dumb logic that ends up biting you in the ass because it's dumb logic.
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Settle down lil fella it's going to be ok. I think I get it now.

1. You sound like a bumbling nimrod who's never watched Mj play if you assume every play was a highlight. Again completely missing my point altogether and navigating around it. More players are capable of emulating his moves in the current league. Period. As where in his era he was almost the only show in town. Non- debatable.

2. He was an anomally in the sense that the way he played and won defied common basketball philosophy. He was never supposed to be able to win his way and you couldn't win without a great bigman. Only one maybe 2 other guys have pulled it off aside from Mike. Anomally.

3. It's true that 150 players wouldn't make that nba, it's also true that the years in question had already added 2 expansion franchises.....2 more the following year. And fun fact a total of 6 expansion franchises in the Jordan era. (One to match each championship huh?) Only one in the 15 or so years to follow.....

4. Steph Curry?? Spacing??:facepalm well I'll be damn ed if that wasn't the worst possible example you could come up with. Seeing as steph operates like guys from that era running off screens and such off ball. Not to mention the nastiest handles the 80s would have seen to get the small amount of breathing room needed for his 30 foot layups......

5. Yes moving your feet is allowed in every era, and yes the 80s and 90s were allowed to also use their hands. Common sense tells you that they had an advantage in that privilege. (Now today's game allows it in certain situations against certain players, but in general it's a no-go) It should also be a no brainer, no offense, that in order to defend at that same level in the modern league you have to work harder with your hands tied behind your back so to speak.

6. Let's not criticize logic, because I just exposed how insecure yours is.:rolleyes:

Da_Realist

06-29-2015, 09:34 PM

A sport or a league can easily go backwards when they sell their soul and principles regarding technique and fundamentals in place of flash and entertainment (Jordan effect) See the NCAA for example, does anybody in their right mind think the basketball being played in that level is anywhere near that of the 80's to early 90's! See Brazilian soccer as another example, good luck finding a new generation as good as the one in the 1970's or mid to late 90's.

The players before 1990 cut their teeth playing 3 to 4 years against a true physical zone with no 3 point shot and packed in paints against the top level competition the NCAA offered at the time! Even then the top teams and players still rose to the top. Michael Jordan was 2 time player of the year against those zones playing without a 3 point line, limited minutes and an inconsistent jump shot. What would the 1990 version do against the modern NBA softer version of that scheme?!?

The NBA's supposed modern zone is basically a bastardized version of the true zone that had ALWAYS been played in college by putting in the 3 second rule and eliminating hand checking to open the lane for the guard-centric offenses that were becoming so prevalent.

Guys like Michael, Magic, Bird and Isiah dominated an NBA that didn't cater their rules for perimeter players. In a league were Steph Curry and a bunch of jump shooting role players can win 66 games and a title it leaves little doubt in my mind that the more traditionally build teams of the past with solid inside and mid range games as their foundation and every other aspect including 3 point shorting stemming from that would absolutely own the limited softer teams of today.

Put these years Hawks in the 1988 East, are they even top 6 or 7?

[QUOTE=Showtime80']And therein lies the biggest myth in the modern NBA "Rule changes killed the inside game" WRONG! The post game started decaying around the mid 90's (Jordan effect) 7 to 8 years before the all mighty rule changes came into play, how many truly dominant offensive post players (not just centers) came into the league after Tim Duncan came into the league in 1996?!? A full 6 years before the rule changes.

The NBA were FORCED into altering the rules due to the fact that you had a league full of perimeter oriented teams being led by just 2 or sometimes even 1 legit scoring threat as opposed to the 80's when contending teams needed 3 to 4. They league basically made it easer for these teams to operate because the offensive systems became unwatchable.

In essence, the present NBA might be overall more athletic but the 80's NBA was BY FAR more skilled and fundamentally sound thanks to solid coaching and staying 3 to 4 years in the pro ranks. The game in the 80's had EVERYTHING, not just layups and 3 pointers like you have now, Your phrase " even role players today can do MJ moves" gives credence to what I say. Give me fundamentally sound role player like Rick Mahorn, Kurt Rambis or Scott Weddman versus any of the

oarabbus

06-29-2015, 09:48 PM

Settle down lil fella it's going to be ok. I think I get it now.

1. You sound like a bumbling nimrod who's never watched Mj play if you assume every play was a highlight. Again completely missing my point altogether and navigating around it. More players are capable of emulating his moves in the current league. Period. As where in his era he was almost the only show in town. Non- debatable.

2. He was an anomally in the sense that the way he played and won defied common basketball philosophy. He was never supposed to be able to win his way and you couldn't win without a great bigman. Only one maybe 2 other guys have pulled it off aside from Mike. Anomally.

3. It's true that 150 players wouldn't make that nba, it's also true that the years in question had already added 2 expansion franchises.....2 more the following year. And fun fact a total of 6 expansion franchises in the Jordan era. (One to match each championship huh?) Only one in the 15 or so years to follow.....

4. Steph Curry?? Spacing??:facepalm well I'll be damn ed if that wasn't the worst possible example you could come up with. Seeing as steph operates like guys from that era running off screens and such off ball. Not to mention the nastiest handles the 80s would have seen to get the small amount of breathing room needed for his 30 foot layups......

5. Yes moving your feet is allowed in every era, and yes the 80s and 90s were allowed to also use their hands. Common sense tells you that they had an advantage in that privilege. (Now today's game allows it in certain situations against certain players, but in general it's a no-go) It should also be a no brainer, no offense, that in order to defend at that same level in the modern league you have to work harder with your hands tied behind your back so to speak.

6. Let's not criticize logic, because I just exposed how insecure yours is.:rolleyes:

Damn, 3ball ethered once again

Straight_Ballin

06-29-2015, 09:59 PM

Jordan had up and coming players in Grant & Pippen on his team, LeBron had nothing.

lol nothing....is that why JR smith set a record, Delly shut down Curry 2 games, Tristan got like 18 reb a game and iggy had to play out of his mind for warriors to win? Mosgov giving Kerr fits....the list goes on....

3ball

06-29-2015, 11:01 PM

dumped Doug Collins and his "Lebron-style" MJ ball dominant offense and the Bulls started winning.

But this is dumb though.. Under Doug Collins, MJ still played mostly off-ball.

This is a fact.. Other than the 24 game stretch at point guard at the end of the 1989 season, MJ played mostly off ball - WATCH ANY GAME

tpols

06-29-2015, 11:25 PM

A sport or a league can easily go backwards when they sell their soul and principles regarding technique and fundamentals in place of flash and entertainment (Jordan effect) See the NCAA for example, does anybody in their right mind think the basketball being played in that level is anywhere near that of the 80's to early 90's! See Brazilian soccer as another example, good luck finding a new generation as good as the one in the 1970's or mid to late 90's.

The players before 1990 cut their teeth playing 3 to 4 years against a true physical zone with no 3 point shot and packed in paints against the top level competition the NCAA offered at the time! Even then the top teams and players still rose to the top. Michael Jordan was 2 time player of the year against those zones playing without a 3 point line, limited minutes and an inconsistent jump shot. What would the 1990 version do against the modern NBA softer version of that scheme?!?

The NBA's supposed modern zone is basically a bastardized version of the true zone that had ALWAYS been played in college by putting in the 3 second rule and eliminating hand checking to open the lane for the guard-centric offenses that were becoming so prevalent.

Guys like Michael, Magic, Bird and Isiah dominated an NBA that didn't cater their rules for perimeter players. In a league were Steph Curry and a bunch of jump shooting role players can win 66 games and a title it leaves little doubt in my mind that the more traditionally build teams of the past with solid inside and mid range games as their foundation and every other aspect including 3 point shorting stemming from that would absolutely own the limited softer teams of today.

Put these years Hawks in the 1988 East, are they even top 6 or 7?

I mean if you wanted to use traditional post players against a team like the jumpshooting warriors, they would just play Andrew bogut more.. who was pretty much a league wide best defensive anchor and post defender with very good size that couldn't be fully utilized against a team running perimeter isos all game.

Players of yesterday would be more shocked by the range or spacing of modern players.. steph curry would basically be nailing shots consistently that they never saw or gameplanned for before. Watching guys like john Stockton and his awkward windup on a push shot, compared to stephs effortless flick of the wrist plus being able to make any pass out a double preventing it.. really makes you appreciate some of the evolution of the modern game. :bowdown:

3ball

06-29-2015, 11:54 PM

More players are capable of emulating his moves in the current league.

This is pure ignorant BS... You're younger than 25, probably much younger, so you don't know what you're talking about.. Today's role player can't do the MJ fadeaway or lean-in dunk any more than role players of previous eras.

For example, guys like Shumpert get 2-3 Jordan lean-ins per year, just like benchwarmers Robert Pack or Randy Brown did back in the day.. But I doubt you've even heard of these players, realtalk.. You think previous eras was all Ehlo and white guys..

Just an FYI, the league's proportion of African-American is the same now as it was in the 90's - about 75%... The Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sport did a study and found that between 1993 and 2013, the proportion of African-Americans ranged from a low of 72.9% (2006) to a high of 82.0% (1995) - see page 20 in following link:

http://www.tidesport.org/RGRC/2013/2013_NBA_RGRC.pdf

2. MJ was never supposed to be able to win without a great bigman. Only one maybe 2 other guys have pulled it off aside from Mike. Anomally.

MJ was the only guy who won ring without a big man, IN THE BIG MAN ERA, when the rules didn't benefit perimeter players.

But in today's perimeter-friendly game, even frail guards like Steph Curry do it.

3. It's true that 150 players wouldn't make that nba, it's also true that the years in question had already added 2 expansion franchises.....2 more the following year. And fun fact a total of 6 expansion franchises in the Jordan era. (One to match each championship huh?) Only one in the 15 or so years to follow.....

Why do you guys think expansion is an argument?.. Today's game has the most teams the league has ever had - 30 teams and 450 players... The league has never been more expanded than it is today.

If you can't understand that, then you must not understand basic arithmetic and should go back to the 3rd grade to brush up.

Seeing as steph operates like guys from that era running off screens and such off ball.

In today's game, a huge chunk of Curry's three-point looks are achieved via drive-and-kick.. He gets to stand there and have the ball kicked out to him for a lot of his threes.

But he wouldn't get drive and kick looks in prior eras because drive and kick didn't exist like it does today - the necessary 3-point shooters simply didn't exist to kick the ball out to.. Accordingly, substantially ALL of Curry's 3-point looks would be from running off screens, not just some of them like today.

5. Yes moving your feet is allowed in every era, and yes the 80s and 90s were allowed to also use their hands. Common sense tells you that they had an advantage in that privilege.

Okay, great - you conceded the point.. Obviously, the era that uses BOTH hands and feet has superior perimeter defense than the era that is only permitted to use their feet.
.

sdot_thadon

06-30-2015, 02:13 AM

This is pure ignorant BS... You're younger than 25, probably much younger, so you don't know what you're talking about.. Today's role player can't do the MJ fadeaway or lean-in dunk any more than role players of previous eras.

For example, guys like Shumpert get 2-3 Jordan lean-ins per year, just like benchwarmers Robert Pack or Randy Brown did back in the day.. But I doubt you've even heard of these players, realtalk.. You think previous eras was all Ehlo and white guys..

Just an FYI, the league's proportion of African-American is the same now as it was in the 90's - about 75%... The Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sport did a study and found that between 1993 and 2013, the proportion of African-Americans ranged from a low of 72.9% (2006) to a high of 82.0% (1995) - see page 20 in following link:

http://www.tidesport.org/RGRC/2013/2013_NBA_RGRC.pdf

MJ was the only guy who won ring without a big man, IN THE BIG MAN ERA, when the rules didn't benefit perimeter players.

But in today's perimeter-friendly game, even frail guards like Steph Curry do it.

Why do you guys think expansion is an argument?.. Today's game has the most teams the league has ever had - 30 teams and 450 players... The league has never been more expanded than it is today.

If you can't understand that, then you must not understand basic arithmetic and should go back to the 3rd grade to brush up.

In today's game, a huge chunk of Curry's three-point looks are achieved via drive-and-kick.. He gets to stand there and have the ball kicked out to him for a lot of his threes.

But he wouldn't get drive and kick looks in prior eras because drive and kick didn't exist like it does today - the necessary 3-point shooters simply didn't exist to kick the ball out to.. Accordingly, substantially ALL of Curry's 3-point looks would be from running off screens, not just some of them like today.

Okay, great - you conceded the point.. Obviously, the era that uses BOTH hands and feet has superior perimeter defense than the era that is only permitted to use their feet.
.
Saying the same things over and over again doesn't make them any more true. Attacking my age because i dont agree with your lunacy doesn't make that true either. I know those guys you mentioned, hell I mentioned a few in a previous post buddy. I get the feeling your knowledge of jordan's career is 2nd hand for the most part. There's no realism in your stories, just highlights Ala youtube.

1) I take it lean ins are the only moves Mj had? You yourself posted gifs in an old thread of roles players doing some of MJ's dunks....Oh and wtf does the percentage of black players have to do with anything? Random.... Again realism man, no one is saying guys are running around mirroring his game every night. Just that as a by product of growing up in the eras following his they were able to watch and develop those moves.
Non debatable.

2) Before this year the only teams to win without a post presence were Barry's warriors, Bad boy pistons, MJ's Bulls and Lebron's heat. IN THE HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE, cause you know there was a history pre Mj. Hence the anomally statement. nuff said.

3) again, I acknowledged that the league has the most teams it's ever had, however it has the most sources of players it's ever had as well. The entire world is developing players that make it to our league now. I'd like to think it sorta balances out. What you won't admit though is again dodging the clear point to skate around it, a running theme with you. Adding 6 teams in 7 or so years is a major dilution to the talent pool. The watering down occurred during Jordan's era, it's not occurring now. You can't be that slow.......but then again.

4) all of Curry's looks would be off screens.....because you said so? Dude has the 1st of his kind talent to create 3s off the dribble consistently and somehow you feel he wouldn't be able to use it in a older era? Riiiiight.:rolleyes:

5) you still seem to be stuck on this hand checking thing. Let's try to break it down to the lowest compound so you can move on. You trumpet the defense of the hand checking era because they can use their hands as well as their feet. That's 2 ways to defend from the perimeter. I said this era guys can only use one of those 2 techniques.
The elite defenders of this era have to work harder and be a bit better to do the same job with these restrictions.

I fully expect a cut and paste/gif meltdown type response, anything less will be disappointing.
Stay salty my friend.

3ball

06-30-2015, 03:47 AM

1) Just that as a by product of growing up in the eras following his they were able to watch and develop MJ's moves.

Everyone tries to play like MJ.

But it hurts the game at times, like right after MJ retired, up until the NBA's best was finally able to beat Euroleague again in 2008..

2) Before this year the only teams to win without a post presence were Barry's warriors, Bad boy pistons, MJ's Bulls and Lebron's heat. IN THE HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE

Not true - I give Dirk as much credit for winning without a post presence as I would Lebron.. Also, the Pistons had several frontcourt post presences (Dantley/Aguirre and Edwards).. Certainly, Dantley and Aguirre were regarded as dominant post players.. It reveals your shallow understanding that you thought the Pistons didn't have any offensive post presence capable of running offense through.

Also, Steph Curry won the championship this year - so you really overlooked the obvious here.. (in b4 you say Bogut's 7 PPG is a post presence - no more than Longley or Cartwright or Mosgov was.. So if these guys aren't post presences you can run offense through, than neither is Bogut.. Honestly, Mosgov and his 14/8/2 in the Finals is by far the most offensive player among them).

Of course, today's game is built for perimeter players, and that's why a frail guard like Curry and his team of guards can play well enough together to win a championship with no post presence.

Lebron benefited from today's perimeter-friendly rules as well, but he mostly benefits from team-hopping to play with the best talent - this included the GOAT shooter as his 4th option (Ray Allen), and a 10-time All-Star for his 3rd option (Bosh) - Bosh happens to be one of the greatest 3rd options of all time.. Lebron's team-hopping netted him all of this in a verifiably weaker (http://i.imgur.com/CIu6gDI.jpg) Eastern Conference.. What a haul.. :bowdown:

Otoh, MJ and Rick Barry are the only players to win a championship with no post presence in the NON-perimeter friendly eras (as opposed to Curry and Lebron, who only won in the perimeter-friendly era).

3) again, I acknowledged that the league has the most teams it's ever had...

Adding 6 teams in 7 or so years is a major dilution to the talent pool. The watering down occurred during Jordan's era, it's not occurring now.

You're funny... Just because the league expanded several teams at a time, that doesn't mean teams had to start picking up bums off the street... :oldlol:

Instead, more college players got drafted, just like today.. Players came from other professional leagues - pros that wouldn't otherwise make a 300 player NBA, could now make a 450 player NBA, just like today.

But these guys were all professionally-paid basketball players BEFORE they entered the NBA, just like today.. :oldlol: ... Man, you're funny... Good trolling.. good effort, but the number of players in the league is all that matters.

4) all of Curry's looks would be off screens.....because you said so? Dude has the 1st of his kind talent to create 3s off the dribble consistently

Curry would hit 3's off-the-dribble.. True... But he'd have little or no drive-and-kicks, whereas today, he gets a fair amount from drive-and-kicks.. So again, he'd have to work a little harder for his looks.

Btw, Curry wouldn't get to face big men shading on the perimeter either - they only do that in today's game because defensive 3 seconds doesn't let them camp in the paint anymore.. So instead of contesting guards in the paint like previous eras, bigs must come out of the paint and contest guards in their wheelhouse: the perimeter.

This is a big advantage for guards.. Even guards like Austin Rivers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374490) can dominate by taking bigs off-the-dribble on the perimeter and finish on an unprotected rim.

But in previous eras, the lack of spacing and legal paint-camping allowed bigs to stay in the paint to wait on guys like Curry and Rivers - the paint was literally never wide open and empty of defenders like it is on every single possession in today's game (due to the spading and defensive 3)..

Yet it amazes me how fans say "but help defenders are always coming over to help in the paint.".... I mean, seriously, do I need to state the obvious here?.. "Coming over" is never as good as already being there.. Isn't that the entire point - to BE there?.. Well, previous eras already were, while today's spacing and defensive 3 forces defenders to "come over" to help.. :facepalm

5) The elite defenders of this era have to work harder and be a bit better to do the same job with these restrictions.

The NBA said that penetration occurs more now than before.. They said their rule changes worked as planned to increase penetration.. This included defensive 3 seconds and the hand-check ban - according to the the NBA, these rules worked (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11302859&postcount=72) to increase penetration.

But keep ignoring the facts and deluding yourself.. Hey, you probably think the lanes are SMALLER today, huh?.. I'm serious.. :roll:
.

kshutts1

06-30-2015, 10:53 AM

MJ was the only guy who won ring without a big man, IN THE BIG MAN ERA, when the rules didn't benefit perimeter players.

But in today's perimeter-friendly game, even frail guards like Steph Curry do it.

Not true - I give Dirk as much credit for winning without a post presence as I would Lebron.. Also, the Pistons had several frontcourt post presences (Dantley/Aguirre and Edwards)..
Also, Steph Curry won the championship this year - so you really overlooked the obvious here.. (in b4 you say Bogut's 7 PPG is a post presence - no more than Longley or Cartwright or Mosgov was.. So if these guys aren't post presences you can run offense through, than neither is Bogut.. Honestly, Mosgov and his 14/8/2 in the Finals is by far the most offensive player among them).

3ball... when you have to change your arguments literally one post later... just stop.

Dude goes from "without a big man" to "without a post presence" completely ignoring that Jordan has one of the greatest post games EVER for a guard.

Just stop.

sdot_thadon

06-30-2015, 12:02 PM

Everyone tries to play like MJ.

But it hurts the game at times, like right after MJ retired, up until the NBA's best was finally able to beat Euroleague again in 2008..

Not true - I give Dirk as much credit for winning without a post presence as I would Lebron.. Also, the Pistons had several frontcourt post presences (Dantley/Aguirre and Edwards).. Certainly, Dantley and Aguirre were regarded as dominant post players.. It reveals your shallow understanding that you thought the Pistons didn't have any offensive post presence capable of running offense through.

Also, Steph Curry won the championship this year - so you really overlooked the obvious here.. (in b4 you say Bogut's 7 PPG is a post presence - no more than Longley or Cartwright or Mosgov was.. So if these guys aren't post presences you can run offense through, than neither is Bogut.. Honestly, Mosgov and his 14/8/2 in the Finals is by far the most offensive player among them).

Of course, today's game is built for perimeter players, and that's why a frail guard like Curry and his team of guards can play well enough together to win a championship with no post presence.

Lebron benefited from today's perimeter-friendly rules as well, but he mostly benefits from team-hopping to play with the best talent - this included the GOAT shooter as his 4th option (Ray Allen), and a 10-time All-Star for his 3rd option (Bosh) - Bosh happens to be one of the greatest 3rd options of all time.. Lebron's team-hopping netted him all of this in a verifiably weaker (http://i.imgur.com/CIu6gDI.jpg) Eastern Conference.. What a haul.. :bowdown:

Otoh, MJ and Rick Barry are the only players to win a championship with no post presence in the NON-perimeter friendly eras (as opposed to Curry and Lebron, who only won in the perimeter-friendly era).

You're funny... Just because the league expanded several teams at a time, that doesn't mean teams had to start picking up bums off the street... :oldlol:

Instead, more college players got drafted, just like today.. Players came from other professional leagues - pros that wouldn't otherwise make a 300 player NBA, could now make a 450 player NBA, just like today.

But these guys were all professionally-paid basketball players BEFORE they entered the NBA, just like today.. :oldlol: ... Man, you're funny... Good trolling.. good effort, but the number of players in the league is all that matters.

Curry would hit 3's off-the-dribble.. True... But he'd have little or no drive-and-kicks, whereas today, he gets a fair amount from drive-and-kicks.. So again, he'd have to work a little harder for his looks.

Btw, Curry wouldn't get to face big men shading on the perimeter either - they only do that in today's game because defensive 3 seconds doesn't let them camp in the paint anymore.. So instead of contesting guards in the paint like previous eras, bigs must come out of the paint and contest guards in their wheelhouse: the perimeter.

This is a big advantage for guards.. Even guards like Austin Rivers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374490) can dominate by taking bigs off-the-dribble on the perimeter and finish on an unprotected rim.

But in previous eras, the lack of spacing and legal paint-camping allowed bigs to stay in the paint to wait on guys like Curry and Rivers - the paint was literally never wide open and empty of defenders like it is on every single possession in today's game (due to the spading and defensive 3)..

Yet it amazes me how fans say "but help defenders are always coming over to help in the paint.".... I mean, seriously, do I need to state the obvious here?.. "Coming over" is never as good as already being there.. Isn't that the entire point - to BE there?.. Well, previous eras already were, while today's spacing and defensive 3 forces defenders to "come over" to help.. :facepalm

The NBA said that penetration occurs more now than before.. They said their rule changes worked as planned to increase penetration.. This included defensive 3 seconds and the hand-check ban - according to the the NBA, these rules worked (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11302859&postcount=72) to increase penetration.

But keep ignoring the facts and deluding yourself.. Hey, you probably think the lanes are SMALLER today, huh?.. I'm serious.. :roll:
.

1) What tf does the Euroleague have to do anybody trying to be like Mj, stay in reality 3ball.

2) You claim I overlooked Curry when I began my post with "before this year..." learn how to read.
If you do your homework you'll see the teams I listed are the only ones indeed.

Dirk my friend is a power forward, most normal, sane people consider that a bigman. Mj and Lebron's teams beat those deficiencies by becoming the "bigman" themselves.

One more point before I move on.......:biggums:
You're supposed to be this huge Jordan Mythologist, yet you didn't know Dantley was traded before the pistons won the chip?? Tells me everything I need to know about your "knowledge":wtf:

3) You do know that adding 6 teams (titles) in 7 or so years waters down the talent. They were pulling guys from the cba in the mid 90's! Something you'd know if you actually watched back then. Here we are over 20 years later and added one more team in those 20 yrs, we also have more sources in place to get talent. Your point is a non issue.

4) so bigmen switching on pnr is yet another strategy created by the new and "inferior" era. Because you basically feel there's no way they will switch on a pnr right?

5) goalposts buddy stop moving them. I never said anything resembling the nba as a whole. Again I only refer to the elite defenders. If they have to be able to perform the same task with less tools, they in turn have to work harder and possibly be better. Not hard to undestand, for the normal and sane.

Keep deflecting and attacking because you ain't got shit here buddy.

3ball

06-30-2015, 12:10 PM

completely ignoring that Jordan has one of the greatest post games EVER for a guard.

Just stop.
Are you stupid?

MJ won without a post presence, which you concede - he WAS the post presence.. That supports my argument that he won without a post presence you stupid ****.

MJ being his team's Center supports my argument... Please, stop cluttering the thread with your stupidity.. Seriously.. You're a dumbass and it's ****ing up the thread... Go back to kindergarten and start over.

I don't have time to make responses to sdot thadon, and then have to deal with your stupidity saying some dumb shit
.

Da_Realist

06-30-2015, 12:14 PM

But this is dumb though.. Under Doug Collins, MJ still played mostly off-ball.

This is a fact.. Other than the 24 game stretch at point guard at the end of the 1989 season, MJ played mostly off ball - WATCH ANY GAME

I didn't mean that literally. MJ was not Lebron but the Bulls offense was very MJ-oriented. Even though he did play more off-ball than Lebron, the ball still always ended up in his hands and everyone understood that. Dumars is on record saying it outright and the Pistons coaching staff implied it by their coaching strategy.

I still maintain that no one, MJ or Lebron, could win the way Lebron plays in the 80's and 90's. Unlike MJ, there has been no impetus for Lebron to change his style because he's won 2 titles and goes to the Finals every year. Despite his results, there is a ceiling on his style and that ceiling prevents me from saying he will ever be as good as MJ was. MJ was forced to accept change and sound coaching and to allow his teammates to make decisons with the ball in a way Lebron isn't.

kshutts1

06-30-2015, 12:16 PM

Are you stupid?

MJ won without a post presence, which you concede - he WAS the post presence.. That supports my argument that he won without a post presence you stupid ****.

MJ being his team's Center supports my argument... Please, stop cluttering the thread with your stupidity.. Seriously.. You're a dumbass and it's ****ing up the thread... Go back to kindergarten and start over.

I don't have time to make responses to sdot thadon, and then have to deal with your stupidity saying some dumb shit
.
I'm confused. How can one win without a post presence while being said post presence?

I will agree that Jordan won without a dominant BIG. Which you originally stated. But then you switched terminology (and meaning) by saying POST PRESENCE in your next post. That I do not agree with.

3ball

06-30-2015, 04:33 PM

Adrian Dantley was traded before the Pistons won the chip

And they replaced him with another dominant post player, Mark Aguirre, as I originally specified.

But Dantley's presence had already gotten them to that championship level - they would've won in 1988 if not for a bad call in Game 7, or Isiah's injury.

Mj and Lebron's teams beat those deficiencies by becoming the "bigman" themselves.

Don't compare Lebron's post-up ability or frequency to MJ's.. It's intellectually dishonest.. I shouldn't even NEED stats to prove this, but it's a good thing they actually do prove it - otherwise you'd never know, since your eyetest is broken beyond repair:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=Time

Lebron posts 8.6% of the time, good for 140th out of 225 in regular season.. His post up PPP was 0.82, good for 125th out of 225.. So it's a verifiable FACT that Lebron is below-average post-up player

So Lebron didn't circumvent not having a post presence by BECOMING a post presence - he circumvented not having a big man by finding sufficient talent around him to force through his suboptimal screen-roll style - this is a fact.

Otoh, MJ's post up ability was elite... literally goat.. Unlike Lebron, MJ actually DID became his team's Center so he could circumvent not having a post presence.

The ACCURATE way to perceive the situation is that MJ posted up as often as Lebron uses screen rolls... Meanwhile, MJ dominated the ball about as often as Lebron posts up.. That's how different each guy's style was.

3) They were pulling guys from the cba in the mid 90's!

Ah yes... Yet another example of either your ignorance or intellectual dishonesty - the NBA D-League replaced the CBA (from wikipedia):

After 20 years of using the CBA as its developmental league, the NBA announces it will form its own minor-league feeder system, creating the National Basketball Development League (later the NBA Development League). The CBA will no longer be the NBA's official developmental league following the end of the 2001 season.

The NBA-D-League replaced the CBA and USBL - literally the exact same players... Btw, at the exact time this happened (2000-2001), I was playing with guys from all 3 leagues every day.. But keep thinking you now what you're talking about.

4) so bigmen switching on pnr is yet another strategy created by the new and "inferior" era. Because you basically feel there's no way they will switch on a pnr right?

It's not just the PNR - bigs must come out of the paint to shade on the perimeter for a lot of plays.

But let's talk about PNR's, because PNR's are the one play where previous eras shaded EXACTLY like they do today, where the big man comes out of the paint to the perimeter, and sags way off his man to anticipate guarding the ballhandler.. Screen rolls were played exactly the same in previous eras as they are today:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8

But as you can see, the difference in defense comes AFTER the ballhandler navigates the screen-roll - in previous eras, ballhandlers still had to navigate defenders in the paint after the screen roll because there was no spacing or defensive 3 seconds to keep the paint clear - this forced guys like MJ into a lot of jumpers after navigating the screen roll (as all the GIFs show) - the paint congestion meant that guys couldn't get all the way to the rim anytime they wanted like today's game..

Whereas in today's game, the paint is wide open after the ballhandler navigates the screen roll because spacing and defensive 3 seconds takes defenders out of the paint.. Help defenders must come from outside the paint, in the hopes they beat the ballhandler to the spot in the paint.. It's a big difference (that you won't acknowledge).

5) If they have to be able to perform the same task with less tools, they in turn have to work harder and possibly be better.

Your arguments hold validity because we know that the hand-check ban has worked to increase penetration - the NBA said so, and so have the players.

Players say the hand-check ban helps penetration - this is common knowledge fact.. But again, keep futilely reaching at straws.
.

3ball

06-30-2015, 06:34 PM

I will agree that Jordan won without a dominant BIG. Which you originally stated.

But then you switched terminology by saying POST PRESENCE in your next post. That I do not agree with (because MJ was their post presence)

Haha, obviously, the player in question cannot be the actual post presence.. MJ and Rick Barry are the only two non PF/C's in the pre-hand-check era that won championships without having someone ELSE as a post presence.

In today's hand-check ban and defensive 3 seconds era, Lebron and Curry have done it..

(Btw, if we're saying Lebron is a PF, then maybe he hasn't done it, or we should say Dirk has done it too.. and I always feel hesitant to include Lebron in the first place because he team-hopped to play with a 10-time All-Star and 20/10 guy as his 3rd option, and the GOAT shooter as his 4th).

sdot_thadon

06-30-2015, 07:53 PM

And they replaced him with another dominant post player, Mark Aguirre, as I originally specified.

But Dantley's presence had already gotten them to that championship level - they would've won in 1988 if not for a bad call in Game 7, or Isiah's injury.

Don't compare Lebron's post-up ability or frequency to MJ's.. It's intellectually dishonest.. I shouldn't even NEED stats to prove this, but it's a good thing they actually do prove it - otherwise you'd never know, since your eyetest is broken beyond repair:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=Time

Lebron posts 8.6% of the time, good for 140th out of 225 in regular season.. His post up PPP was 0.82, good for 125th out of 225.. So it's a verifiable FACT that Lebron is below-average post-up player

So Lebron didn't circumvent not having a post presence by BECOMING a post presence - he circumvented not having a big man by finding sufficient talent around him to force through his suboptimal screen-roll style - this is a fact.

Otoh, MJ's post up ability was elite... literally goat.. Unlike Lebron, MJ actually DID became his team's Center so he could circumvent not having a post presence.

The ACCURATE way to perceive the situation is that MJ posted up as often as Lebron uses screen rolls... Meanwhile, MJ dominated the ball about as often as Lebron posts up.. That's how different each guy's style was.

Ah yes... Yet another example of either your ignorance or intellectual dishonesty - the NBA D-League replaced the CBA (from wikipedia):

After 20 years of using the CBA as its developmental league, the NBA announces it will form its own minor-league feeder system, creating the National Basketball Development League (later the NBA Development League). The CBA will no longer be the NBA's official developmental league following the end of the 2001 season.

The NBA-D-League replaced the CBA and USBL - literally the exact same players... Btw, at the exact time this happened (2000-2001), I was playing with guys from all 3 leagues every day.. But keep thinking you now what you're talking about.

It's not just the PNR - bigs must come out of the paint to shade on the perimeter for a lot of plays.

But let's talk about PNR's, because PNR's are the one play where previous eras shaded EXACTLY like they do today, where the big man comes out of the paint to the perimeter, and sags way off his man to anticipate guarding the ballhandler.. Screen rolls were played exactly the same in previous eras as they are today:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8

But as you can see, the difference in defense comes AFTER the ballhandler navigates the screen-roll - in previous eras, ballhandlers still had to navigate defenders in the paint after the screen roll because there was no spacing or defensive 3 seconds to keep the paint clear - this forced guys like MJ into a lot of jumpers after navigating the screen roll (as all the GIFs show) - the paint congestion meant that guys couldn't get all the way to the rim anytime they wanted like today's game..

Whereas in today's game, the paint is wide open after the ballhandler navigates the screen roll because spacing and defensive 3 seconds takes defenders out of the paint.. Help defenders must come from outside the paint, in the hopes they beat the ballhandler to the spot in the paint.. It's a big difference (that you won't acknowledge).

Your arguments hold validity because we know that the hand-check ban has worked to increase penetration - the NBA said so, and so have the players.

Players say the hand-check ban helps penetration - this is common knowledge fact.. But again, keep futilely reaching at straws.
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Congratulations, you've successfully responded to my post without addressing a single thing that was in discussion. I aplaud your ability to change goal posts and act oblivious to points which don't fit into your fantasy bizarro world. Reality check.

1) You were better off avoiding the Dantley point altogether like you did in your original response. It's laughable that you're still even mentioning it after embarrassing yourself and lack of knowledge when you just a while ago accused me of the same. Just leave that L in your pocket son, don't spend it all in one place.

2) No place in any of my posts am I comparing Mj and Lebron's post game, nor do I care to. No one gives a fvck but you. I guess the forum doesn't tell you enough, so here's another.

3) again assuming makes an ass out of you, in front of me. No place in my post did I say the cba didn't become the dleague. I'm fully aware of that captain obvious, what next you gonna tell me Mj wore number 23?? My point was as expansion grew teams had to pull guys up from the cba to fill spots. It was a common practice here in Houston during that time. Guys were found in the d league at that time. Guys get sent to the dleague and called up now. It's a big difference.

4) yet another deflection no one gives a damn about. Wtf. Starting to think you can't form coherent thoughts without ctrl+c and ctrl+v.

5) oh hell, another deflection. Nobody cares about the rule book in this point. To do the same job, guys have to work harder without the ability to use their hands. You look stupider by the post trying to turn it into something you can speak on.

This is getting pathetic.