when Kobe hangs them up where will he be on the GOAT list

[SwayDizzle]

#5 most likely scenario
and well deserved :applause: :applause:

[Quickening]

11

[riseagainst]

top 6

[nba_55]

LOL :lol :lol :lol

[nzahir]

#5 most likely scenario
and well deserved :applause: :applause:
LMFAO, with 2 fmvps and 1 mvp? Top 10 for sure, but not top 5 unless he wins another fmvp and either wins an mvp or has a great year. He will be in that 6-9 range depending on who you ask. Lebron has multiple shots at more fmvps and rings to push him above kobe, duncan still has another shot or 2

[Beastmode88]

I have him around 7-8 on my list but will probably be 6 or 7 when it's all said and done. You can say he was carried by shaq but shaq couldn't do it without kobe as well.

[turret]

Only goat Kobe will get a glimpse of is playing the game on Waiting.....

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OJ8CXsuHBzk/hqdefault.jpg

[PP34Deuce]

I got Kobe at 10-12.

In no particular order

Jordan
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Lebron
Kareem
Tim Duncan

after that, everyone else between 9-15 can be interchangable I feel. Each of those guys changed and dominated at a certain period.

[Droid101]

A really mature person might use the eye test and say number 3.

I'm guessing that non-LeBron fans will put him between 5-9 though. Which is tough but fair.

branstans will have him 11 or lower, showing their true colors as usual.

[PP34Deuce]

A really mature person might use the eye test and say number 3.

I'm guessing that non-LeBron fans will put him between 5-9 though. Which is tough but fair.

branstans will have him 11 or lower, showing their true colors as usual.

Longevity and elite play has been his main advantage. As far as dominating and guaranteeing you a championship? Kobe is not better at providing that than the guys I mentioned.

Lebron,Shaq,Kareem,MJ, Bird,Hakeem all guaranteed you 50 plus wins and consistently going to a conference finals to compete for a championship.

Kobe guarantees you the playoffs.

[Knoe Itawl]

I have him in the 11/12 - 15 range.

[nzahir]

A really mature person might use the eye test and say number 3.

I'm guessing that non-LeBron fans will put him between 5-9 though. Which is tough but fair.

branstans will have him 11 or lower, showing their true colors as usual.
Lmfao eye test isnt a real thing bro, thats why no respected analyst, WHO IS PAID to talk about sports, uses it. They use numbers. You probably listen to Skip Bayless.
Not a kobe fan but I got him in that 6-9 range. Hell end up on the lower end of it probably b/c lebron may win some more rings and fmvps and keep breaking records

[SuperPippen]

His career is effectively over. Yea, I know he'll still probably play a couple more years in desperate pursuit of a sixth ring, but if he does win one, he definitely won't be the best player on the team, which is the same argument Kobe stans use to discredit Duncan and his rings.


Regardless, I have at #8 all-time. Anyone who say's he's outside the top ten is insane, IMO.

[jlip]

Kobe's ranking will more than likely not change between now and whenever he "hangs them up" no matter how long he plays. So wherever you have him now is probably where he will end.

[tpols]

Longevity and elite play has been his main advantage. As far as dominating and guaranteeing you a championship? Kobe is not better at providing that than the guys I mentioned.

Lebron,Shaq,Kareem,MJ, Bird,Hakeem all guaranteed you 50 plus wins and consistently going to a conference finals to compete for a championship.

Kobe guarantees you the playoffs.

Kobe's teams have gone just as far competing for a championship year in and year out outside a couple years.. where he had very poor help in a statistically superior conference.


Kareem with poor/mediocre rosters could only drag to 40 something wins in the 70s.. even missed the playoffs.

Hakeem got bounced in the first round countless times when he had poor help.

MJ before he had help and scottie matured was not competing for championships.. he was getting swept out of the playoffs in the first round.

ect. etc.

So.. this is just wrong.


How a guy that has played in as many playoff rounds as anyone and gone full four rounds 7 times.. hasn't been consistently competing for championships lol.. makes no sense.

[Derka]

Depends. Let's see how he finishes up these last years. Hard to move him up the list if injuries are going to continue to plague him.

[FKAri]

Depends. Let's see how he finishes up these last years. Hard to move him up the list if injuries are going to continue to plague him.

Whereever one ranks Kobe that position shouldn't really change from now until his retirement.

[nzahir]

Kobe's teams have gone just as far competing for a championship year in and year out outside a couple years.. where he had very poor help in a statistically superior conference.


Kareem with poor/mediocre rosters could only drag to 40 something wins in the 70s.. even missed the playoffs.

Hakeem got bounced in the first round countless times when he had poor help.

MJ before he had help and scottie matured was not competing for championships.. he was getting swept out of the playoffs in the first round.

ect. etc.

So.. this is just wrong.


How a guy that has played in as many playoff rounds as anyone and gone full four rounds 7 times.. hasn't been consistently competing for championships lol.. makes no sense.
What about lebron leading scrub teams to the finals or at least past round 1?
Larry hughes was his 2nd option in 07(lebrons 4th year) and he took that team to the finals; depth was utter shit too. But lebron is the best of any star with the least talent

[SexSymbol]

5-7 is where the majority will have him. And it suits his dominance, individual peak and success.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Depends. Let's see how he finishes up these last years. Hard to move him up the list if injuries are going to continue to plague him.

did you move Magic down your list for getting HIV

[nightprowler10]

A really mature person might use the eye test and say number 3.
Nah, there's just no case of him being in the top 3. Top 10 easily. The highest I can see myself putting him is #8.

[SexSymbol]

Nah, there's just no case of him being in the top 3. Top 10 easily. The highest I can see myself putting him is #8.
He has a case over anybody not named mj russell or kareem.
Everybody else he has a case for. And I'm not saying that he's better than those players for sure, but he definitely has a case for top 4

[dubeta]

1 MVP, 2 FMVP, most missed shots in NBA History, and only 18th in Career PER?


Top 15

[Mr. Jabbar]

4-5 at worst

[HOoopCityJones]

did you move Magic down your list for getting HIV

:roll:

[nightprowler10]

He has a case over anybody not named mj russell or kareem.
Everybody else he has a case for. And I'm not saying that he's better than those players for sure, but he definitely has a case for top 4
I don't think we're completely disagreeing here. In my top 10, he has a case over Timmy, Magic, Bird, but no case over the names you mentioned plus Wilt. And while you could make a case for him over some of these guys, I don't think I'll ever be thoroughly convinced enough to put him higher than #8.

That's of course assuming you give a shit about my top 10.

[TheMarkMadsen]

KAJ missed the playoffs 2 years in a row during his prime, only won with Oscar and Magic who when KAJ retired the top 5 GOAT list looked something like Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Magic with KAJ somewhere in between

but lets penalize Kobe for having Pau and the Kardashian

[nightprowler10]

KAJ missed the playoffs 2 years in a row during his prime, only won with Oscar and Magic who when KAJ retired the top 5 GOAT list looked something like Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Magic with KAJ somewhere in between

but lets penalize Kobe for having Pau and the Kardashian
I'm not doing that. I just legitimately never rated him in that tier.

[SexSymbol]

I don't think we're completely disagreeing here. In my top 10, he has a case over Timmy, Magic, Bird, but no case over the names you mentioned plus Wilt. And while you could make a case for him over some of these guys, I don't think I'll ever be thoroughly convinced enough to put him higher than #8.

That's of course assuming you give a shit about my top 10.
I'm interested in anybody's top 10, it's always a unique perspective on seeing the same thing in many different ways.
The way I see it is:
Kobe has a case over Wilt, because Wilt was usually dissapointing in post season and has a 2/6 finals record which is terrible for a top 10 atg. Yes, he has many records, many statistical feats, but I value winning more, it's what you play the game for anyway.
He has a case over Magic because of his individual superiority, defense, longevity and magic himself saying Kobe was the best laker ever.
A case over bird because of defense, rings, longevity.
I think we'll agree that he has a good case over anybody else.
So basically, a 4-8 ranking is logical. I have him at 5th, but I'm a fan of the guy, I'm somewhat biased, so obviously it might look strange to some. But I think when it's all said and done most people will narrow it down to 5-7 range for him, at least early after his retirement.

[HOoopCityJones]

Only player in NBA history with more than 30,000 points and 6,000 assists

^People underrate this man.

[gyu]

4-5 at worst
What about at best?

[HOoopCityJones]

Only player in NBA history to score at least 600 points in the postseason for three consecutive years.

633- 2008
695- 2009
671- 2010

[warriorfan]

What about at best?

2 or 3

[BBallZen83]

A really mature person(Kobetard) might use the eye test and say number 3.

I'm guessing that non-LeBron fans (reasonable people) will put him between 5-9 though. Which is tough but fair.

branstans will have him 11 or lower, showing their true colors as usual.

I think that's what you meant to say.

[HOoopCityJones]

I think that's what you meant to say.

You've admitted to me personally that you're a Lebron stan. :coleman:

[tpols]

What about lebron leading scrub teams to the finals or at least past round 1?
Larry hughes was his 2nd option in 07(lebrons 4th year) and he took that team to the finals; depth was utter shit too. But lebron is the best of any star with the least talent

Why does Lebron get to play the Wizards and Nets on their last legs while kobe has to face the prime suns and then, if he were to even get by that, prime spurs and then have you guys come in here talking about getting past the first round like the opponents were the same ??

[BBallZen83]

You've admitted to me personally that you're a Lebron stan. :coleman:

Yeah... I also think I'm more reasonable than most. I personally have Kobe ranked over Lebron for now.

I don't know. I definitely consider myself a fan of his. Maybe since I have followed him in Cleveland and Miami that makes me a stan, but I don't say illogical retarded stuff in an effort to get a rise out of people (or because I truly believe it), like many Kobe and Lebron "stans"

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Fringe top 5

Kobes one of my faves ever but hes not in his prime anymore so he aint gon be added more high quality seasons

[dubeta]

When in doubt, PER is the ultimate arbitrator

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/cd/cdb310ad67072458a3390322c315849d700d58692c606c2905 f09b8c167cfdb1.jpg


18th sounds about right...

[Ne 1]

When in doubt, PER is the ultimate arbitrator

John Hollinger is a nerd who likes math more than basketball. He once said himself he watches just 4 games a year. These formulas like PER actually hurt basketball discussions. It's sad people actually take them seriously. Hollinger applies subjective values to each area of the game.

[rmt]

John Hollinger is a nerd who likes math more than basketball. He once said himself he watches just 4 games a year. These formulas like PER actually hurt basketball discussions. It's sad people actually take them seriously. Hollinger applies subjective values to each area of the game.

Isn't it strange how so many of these advanced stats don't show up Kobe in a flattering light? But for others, these just SCREAM out at you?

Assuming that Kobe hangs them up next season or the season after, he'll stay where he is (to me, at #9) if Lebron doesn't increase his ring/fmvp count. It's unlikely that Kobe can get any higher - barring some miracle injuries to every team. The only place he can go is down - depending on what Lebron or any other great player in the future does.

[Cold soul]

Kobe ranks about 5-9 range is where majority have him not higher or lower.

[TheBigVeto]

#48423

[Carter_17]

He is THE GOAT. Top1. 1-9 is too much to just let it pass.

[Ne 1]

Isn't it strange how so many of these advanced stats don't show up Kobe in a flattering light? But for others, these just SCREAM out at you?

What do you base this on? Also, is what I said not true? PER is subjective and a flawed stat. Hollinger gave the most value to what he felt was most important. Essentially, anyone could create a similar stat to PER crediting one category more than another, and thus the list would change.

It isn't anymore viable then if anyone on this site were to make a formula up with their personal beliefs of how stats should be valued.

[rmt]

What do you base this on? Also, is what I said not true? PER is subjective and a flawed stat. Hollinger gave the most value to what he felt was most important. Essentially, anyone could create a similar stat to PER crediting one category more than another, and thus the list would change.

It isn't anymore viable then if anyone on this site were to make a formula up with their personal beliefs of how stats should be valued.

So, explain why under the SAME subjective/flawed stat - two people playing the same position, under the same coach, under the same system come up with such different PERs. One SCREAMS excellence and the other is meh (relative to his ranking by his stans).

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Duncan > Kobe.

[Ne 1]

So, explain why under the SAME subjective/flawed stat - two people playing the same position, under the same coach, under the same system come up with such different PERs. One SCREAMS excellence and the other is meh (relative to his ranking by his stans).
All you need to know about PER is that it originally suggested that David Robinson was the greatest player of all-time and then Hollinher reworked it. He also said he took minutes into account so you can compare scrubs to actual star players and not miss a beat. A good rule of thumb is that if a stat takes more than a few seconds to explain, it's probably worthless.

[Droid101]

PER was made by Kobe-hater Hollinger.

Hollinger picked the Jazz to beat the Lakers both in 2008 and 2009. He's just a straight hater, through and through. He tailored his formula to make Kobe look worse, period.

[rmt]

All you need to know about PER is that it originally suggested that David Robinson was the greatest player of all-time and then Hollinher reworked it. He also said he took minutes into account so you can compare scrubs to actual star players and not miss a beat. A good rule of thumb is that if a stat takes more than a few seconds to explain, it's probably worthless.

If one is comparing big men with wings/guards, you might have a point that certain stats skew one way or the other. But when comparing 2 players who play similar minutes with similar responsibilities (meaning not scrubs) who play the same position, under the same coach, under the same system, please explain the difference in PERs. You know who I'm referring to. Why under these conditions above, do the SAME flawed/subjective stats favor one SO much over the other (if the latter is so great as you stans claim)?

[G0ATbe]

Top 1.

[Ne 1]

PER was made by Kobe-hater Hollinger.

Hollinger picked the Jazz to beat the Lakers both in 2008 and 2009. He's just a straight hater, through and through. He tailored his formula to make Kobe look worse, period.
He said he watches about 4 baksetball games a year. :lol He also ranked Wade's '06 Finals as the greatest ever.

[warriorfan]

If a statistic(PER) is made up by some pasty f ag who has never touched a rim in his entire life then it probably is bunk

[rmt]

If a statistic(PER) is made up by some pasty f ag who has never touched a rim in his entire life then it probably is bunk

Then shouldn't it be BUNK for 2 players who play the same position, similar minutes/responsibility, under the same coach, playing the same system?

[Jameerthefear]

I have him top 15

[Ne 1]

If a statistic(PER) is made up by some pasty f ag who has never touched a rim in his entire life then it probably is bunk
It's a very very flawed statistic which tries to equate touches with pace and ignores context. Only people with some kind of agenda and don't actually watch the players play use PER as any kind of benchmark. Not to mention PER takes in no account of what a player does defensively or intangibles.

[Ne 1]

According to PER, D-Rob>>Hakeem, D-Rob=Prime Jordan, CP3>peak Magic, Manu>Kobe in '08, Dirk>Bird, Wilt>>>Bill Rusell, Bosh>Kobe in '10, etc etc.

Doesn't pass the sniff test.
Overvalues the impact of pace on numbers, especially for star players. That's one reason guys like CP3/Wade/LeBron, who play on very slow teams, tend to have huge PER numbers. Overvalues rebounding, undervalues assists.

Doesn't really measure defense at all. To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins:

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."

[dubeta]

According to PER, D-Rob>>Hakeem, D-Rob=Prime Jordan, CP3>peak Magic, Manu>Kobe in '08, Dirk>Bird, Wilt>>>Bill Rusell, Bosh>Kobe in '10, etc etc.

Doesn't pass the sniff test.
Overvalues the impact of pace on numbers, especially for star players. That's one reason guys like CP3/Wade/LeBron, who play on very slow teams, tend to have huge PER numbers. Overvalues rebounding, undervalues assists.

Doesn't really measure defense at all. To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins:

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."


PER got this nikka shook :lol


Finally came to the realization that Kobe isnt top 15 all-time?

[AirBourne92]

Lmfao eye test isnt a real thing bro, thats why no respected analyst, WHO IS PAID to talk about sports, uses it. They use numbers. You probably listen to Skip Bayless.
Not a kobe fan but I got him in that 6-9 range. Hell end up on the lower end of it probably b/c lebron may win some more rings and fmvps and keep breaking records

those analysts dont even "analyze" basketball in the same manner that professional basketball teams and coaches do.

a basketball team, after a game, will review their box score stats, but think nothing of it--or at least not as much as we do.

what they do is the eye test---they go into the film room and break everything down.

i know this because unlike all you fukboyz in here that talk like you know everything, i actually hooped in college and know people that play semi pro and pro.

NBA coaches are known to not trust statistics, especially advanced statistics.

get the *** outta here with your shit boyy

[rmt]

those analysts dont even "analyze" basketball in the same manner that professional basketball teams and coaches do.

a basketball team, after a game, will review their box score stats, but think nothing of it--or at least not as much as we do.

what they do is the eye test---they go into the film room and break everything down.

i know this because unlike all you fukboyz in here that talk like you know everything, i actually hooped in college and know people that play semi pro and pro.

NBA coaches are known to not trust statistics, especially advanced statistics.

get the *** outta here with your shit boyy

I think coaches do use a lot of advanced statistics. That's why Pop has based his defense on defending the 3 (especially the corner 3) and defending against layups. He's willing to give up contested 2s. That's why Spurs always have difficulty against teams with good midrange jump shooters like Dirk's Mavs and OKC with Durant/Westbrooke. They can hit those all day long.

[Wade's Rings]

When in doubt, PER is the ultimate arbitrator

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/cd/cdb310ad67072458a3390322c315849d700d58692c606c2905 f09b8c167cfdb1.jpg

So Lebron went 2/4 with the 8th Greatest Player of All-Time in Wade :biggums:

[dubeta]

So Lebron went 2/4 with the 8th Greatest Player of All-Time in Wade :biggums:

Broken down version of him yes

[Wade's Rings]

He said he watches about 4 baksetball games a year. :lol He also ranked Wade's '06 Finals as the greatest ever.

D-GOAT :bowdown:

[rmt]

Broken down version of him yes

I dunno know. 26.5/7/5.2/1.5/1.5 54.6% doesn't seem too shabby to me.

Age G GS MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST STL BLK
1 Dwyane Wade 29 6 6 234 59 108 7 23 34 49 15 27 42 31 9 9 15 14 159 .546 .304 .694 39.0 26.5 7.0 5.2 1.5 1.5
2 Chris Bosh 26 6 6 237 38 92 0 1 35 45 15 29 44 6 1 3 13 15 111 .413 .000 .778 39.4 18.5 7.3 1.0 0.2 0.5
3 LeBron James 26 6 6 262 43 90 9 28 12 20 6 37 43 41 10 3 24 20 107 .478 .321 .600 43.6 17.8 7.2 6.8 1.7 0.5

[AirBourne92]

I think coaches do use a lot of advanced statistics. That's why Pop has based his defense on defending the 3 (especially the corner 3) and defending against layups. He's willing to give up contested 2s. That's why Spurs always have difficulty against teams with good midrange jump shooters like Dirk's Mavs and OKC with Durant/Westbrooke. They can hit those all day long.


They use it in a different manner than what we do.


for them its supplemental, but not absolute.

im not saying they eradicate it, but if someone was to present them a side by side comparison of kobe vs lebron and conclude that lebron was a better shooter or scorer than kobe, they wouldn't buy it at all.

even their PER interpretation is different than ours.

the problem is that most casual fans never experienced like a formal manner of basketball, the technicalities of the game, the strategies, and basically the whole process that a competitive team goes through in a competitive league day and night.

its like telling someone to google how to do open heart surgery, sure you might scrape up some details of the procedure, but you sure as hell not going to get all of it.

[Ne 1]

those analysts dont even "analyze" basketball in the same manner that professional basketball teams and coaches do.

a basketball team, after a game, will review their box score stats, but think nothing of it--or at least not as much as we do.

what they do is the eye test---they go into the film room and break everything down.

i know this because unlike all you fukboyz in here that talk like you know everything, i actually hooped in college and know people that play semi pro and pro.

NBA coaches are known to not trust statistics, especially advanced statistics.

get the *** outta here with your shit boyy

Yeah, besides win shares and defensive win shares which is even worse, PER is probably the most worthless metric in basketball. Completely arbitrary. I've never seen an NBA player or coach talk about PER or the even worse win shares. Coaches do use +/- however, which can give you an indication of what lineups work. And it's not a formula.

But anything calculated from box scores is useless. Rate stats are nice though (TRB% and the like) as are team ORtg/DRtg/Pace, but contrived measures are weak as hell. The only advanced metrics worth a damn otherwise are play-by-play based (+/-)

[tpols]

I think coaches do use a lot of advanced statistics. That's why Pop has based his defense on defending the 3 (especially the corner 3) and defending against layups. He's willing to give up contested 2s. That's why Spurs always have difficulty against teams with good midrange jump shooters like Dirk's Mavs and OKC with Durant/Westbrooke. They can hit those all day long.

That use of advanced stats by your coach is why you guys lost a sure fire ring.

#neverforget #rayray

[Wade's Rings]

Yeah, besides win shares and defensive win shares which is even worse

How are those even calculated? What are the flaws in your opinion?

[rmt]

That use of advanced stats by your coach is why you guys lost a sure fire ring.

#neverforget #rayray

Yep. That's a strategy I don't agree with. In crunch time, put the best players on the court - especially the player with the MOST DEFENSIVE REBOUNDS IN PLAYOFF HISTORY.

Only Ray could have hit that shot. And for those who say that Curry is the GOAT 3pt shooter - I wanna see him hit that in that kind of situation and get the 3pt record before they crown him.

I do they think they use advanced stats though - see the difference in the way he chose to defend Lebron between 13 and 14. In 13 - they laid off him and dared Lebron to shoot and he didn't. In 14, he had Leonard up into Lebron.

[Inferno]

Top 10

[rmt]

You know what, I take that back. No way Pop could have been using advanced stats recently. He'd know that Parker was the worst player on the Spurs this year :banghead: and woulda played Mills instead.

[tpols]

Yep. That's a strategy I don't agree with. In crunch time, put the best players on the court - especially the player with the MOST DEFENSIVE REBOUNDS IN PLAYOFF HISTORY.

Only Ray could have hit that shot. And for those who say that Curry is the GOAT 3pt shooter - I wanna see him hit that in that kind of situation and get the 3pt record before they crown him.

I do they think they use advanced stats though - see the difference in the way he chose to defend Lebron between 13 and 14. In 13 - they laid off him and dared Lebron to shoot and he didn't. In 14, he had Leonard up into Lebron.


That's where myopic efficiency argument is defeated by common sense.:cheers:

[Showtime2001]

Kobe > Duncan.

[Ne 1]

How are those even calculated? What are the flaws in your opinion?

Like all of these formula stats that try to combine all numbers into one, it's useless. Incredibly subjective values given to each area.

Win shares is calculated by taking a box-stat-based measure of player efficiency and normalizing it using usage rates and team wins (amongst other things). So immediately we can see a number of reasons why it sucks. First, box-stat-based individual performance measures such as PER severely misjudge player performance. But apparently that's not enough crap for one stat; win shares piles on more crap by normalizing using team wins, without an underlying model to justify such an assumption.

[Cold soul]

Like most said top 10 while top five is huge reach.

[AirBourne92]

Yeah, besides win shares and defensive win shares which is even worse, PER is probably the most worthless metric in basketball. Completely arbitrary. I've never seen an NBA player or coach talk about PER or the even worse win shares. Coaches do use +/- however, which can give you an indication of what lineups work. And it's not a formula.

But anything calculated from box scores is useless. Rate stats are nice though (TRB% and the like) as are team ORtg/DRtg/Pace, but contrived measures are weak as hell. The only advanced metrics worth a damn otherwise are play-by-play based (+/-)


yes i completely agree with you. win shares and PER is pretty retarded.

teams also use PER but not to analyze skill or talent like how people here do.

you pretty much said it man, the plus or minuses bring the most value, but even that is evaluated in context to what happens in the games--which they review by looking at film.

its pretty funny how people are so quick to dismiss the eye test, but it's literally the 1 thing that professionals do and use.

they break down film to help them with literally everything. coaches use it and individual athletes use it to do their homework on themselves and their opponents.

hell, if anyone wanted to get better at basketball or any sport as a matter of fact, one of the best thing they could do is record their games or whatever and go back and review it and see how they can improve.

[Euroleague]

Top 5.

Kareem
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Kobe

[Euroleague]

John Hollinger is a nerd who likes math more than basketball. He once said himself he watches just 4 games a year. These formulas like PER actually hurt basketball discussions. It's sad people actually take them seriously. Hollinger applies subjective values to each area of the game.

That does not surprise me at all. That "Euro to NBA translation formula" thing he has is one of the most ridiculous and absurd things I've ever seen in basketball.

Yet NBA fans actually think it's legit or something.

He should have taken up a career in politics.

[Euroleague]

So, explain why under the SAME subjective/flawed stat - two people playing the same position, under the same coach, under the same system come up with such different PERs. One SCREAMS excellence and the other is meh (relative to his ranking by his stans).

You are a moron.

[Euroleague]

All you need to know about PER is that it originally suggested that David Robinson was the greatest player of all-time and then Hollinher reworked it. He also said he took minutes into account so you can compare scrubs to actual star players and not miss a beat. A good rule of thumb is that if a stat takes more than a few seconds to explain, it's probably worthless.

Hollinger is one of those clowns that political parties hire as "stat experts" that say they are "math experts" to write statistical "analysis" that "proves" the economic package they have written "saves money" and "eliminates tax loop holes", when it actually increases the deficit by trillions of dollars and gives billions upon billions in tax breaks to super rich individuals and the biggest corporations in the world.

Of course the average retard can't grasp stuff like that, because if it is more complicated than 2+2 they are lost. Just like the average NBA fan can't grasp that PER is a joke stat. Because it is more complicated than a free throw is worth 1 point, a 2 point shot is worth 2 points, and a 3 point shot is worth 3 points. But give it a flashy name like "PER" and they are sold.

Hollinger clearly has that kind of BULLSHIT background in him. ESPN (Disney) probably got him out of the same clique they get their executive goons.

[warriorfan]

Then shouldn't it be BUNK for 2 players who play the same position, similar minutes/responsibility, under the same coach, playing the same system?

Yes it is still bunk. Do you know how PER is even calculated? Do you know who made up the random and arbitrary coefficients? Do you know even what you are using to gauge the supposed production of players?





If you don't even know how the Kool-Aid is made, you probably shouldn't be drinking it.

[Jacks3]

Isn't it strange how so many of these advanced stats don't show up Kobe in a flattering light? But for others, these just SCREAM out at you?



You should really stop with the narratives, because Bryant put up phenomenal advanced stats. Both in the box-score and with the +/- stuff.

[chazzy]

9 or 10 probably

[GimmeThat]

he won't be considered as GOAT.
but he'll have a status that can't be touched.

idk, maybe think Arnold Palmer?

[Lebron23]

9 or 10 probably


This

[nightprowler10]

I'm interested in anybody's top 10, it's always a unique perspective on seeing the same thing in many different ways.
The way I see it is:
Kobe has a case over Wilt, because Wilt was usually dissapointing in post season and has a 2/6 finals record which is terrible for a top 10 atg. Yes, he has many records, many statistical feats, but I value winning more, it's what you play the game for anyway.
He has a case over Magic because of his individual superiority, defense, longevity and magic himself saying Kobe was the best laker ever.
A case over bird because of defense, rings, longevity.
I think we'll agree that he has a good case over anybody else.
So basically, a 4-8 ranking is logical. I have him at 5th, but I'm a fan of the guy, I'm somewhat biased, so obviously it might look strange to some. But I think when it's all said and done most people will narrow it down to 5-7 range for him, at least early after his retirement.

Yeah I'm not big on defending Wilt, but he did consistently go up against the greatest winner of all time, so his 2/6 is a lot more understandable than Lebron's.

Also, I feel like you're overrating Kobe's defense. He's not miles ahead of Bird.