Wow, MJ is the goat

[The_Pharcyde]

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54aac868e4b00f7c5fbf0a24/t/55902b2ee4b0a675d66eab88/1435511599322/?format=750w

and he won 6 titles in 15 years
13 full seasons (excluding the broken foot year and the 17 game comeback season)
but none the less
6/15=40% of seasons he won the title/appeared in the finals

compared to kobe's
5/19
17 if you exclude last 2 injury plagued seasons
5/19= 26% of the time he won the title
7/19= 36% of the time he appeared in the finals

or lebron, 12 full seasons, 2 titles
2/12=16% of the time he won the title
6/12=50% of the time he appeared in the finals

also 6 fmvps for MJ vs 2 each for kobe and lbj
establishes them as the "guy" on the team


Jordan is the GOAT

dominant regular season stats, even more dominant playoff stats and the titles and finals mvps
trifecta

[dubeta]

Keep telling urself that kid :rolleyes:

[Young X]

And he only played 7 full seasons on a good/great team...still ended up with 6 rings/FMVP's.

The one year he didn't win he got to game 7 of the ECF as the underdog against the defending champs.

I think he was also 24-0 with HCA iirc as well.

[Straight_Ballin]

Solid post OP.

bron will never win a chip without wade.

[The_Pharcyde]

No cherry picking what years to count
Jordan has highest win % in the winning the title
All times winning the finals MVP

[k0kakw0rld]

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54aac868e4b00f7c5fbf0a24/t/55902b2ee4b0a675d66eab88/1435511599322/?format=750w

and he won 6 titles in 15 years
13 full seasons (excluding the broken foot year and the 17 game comeback season)
but none the less
6/15=40% of seasons he won the title/appeared in the finals

compared to kobe's
5/19
17 if you exclude last 2 injury plagued seasons
5/19= 26% of the time he won the title
7/19= 36% of the time he appeared in the finals

or lebron, 12 full seasons, 2 titles
2/12=16% of the time he won the title
6/12=50% of the time he appeared in the finals

also 6 fmvps for MJ vs 2 each for kobe and lbj
establishes them as the "guy" on the team


Jordan is the GOAT

dominant regular season stats, even more dominant playoff stats and the titles and finals mvps
trifecta
KAJ says hi :D

[The_Pharcyde]

Kareem: 6 titles in 20 full seasons
6/20= 30%
2 finals mvps

[SouBeachTalents]

Solid post OP.

bron will never win a chip without wade.

Jordan will never win a chip without Pippen

[warriorfan]

Jordan will never win a chip without Pippen

Wade > Pippen > Iguodala

Deal with it

[dubeta]

Wade > Pippen > Iguodala

Deal with it

All of them have either more rings or more FMVPs than LBC

[warriorfan]

All of them have either more rings or more FMVPs than LBC

And Jordan has more then all of them that is why he is the GOAT

[dubeta]

And Jordan has more then all of them that is why he is the GOAT

True, however maybe one day if Curry continues his trajectory he can surpass Iguodala All-time :applause:

[The_Pharcyde]

what puts Iguodala above curry?

[warriorfan]

True, however maybe one day if Curry continues his trajectory he can surpass Iguodala All-time :applause:

Doesn't matter, Jordan is the GOAT, I knew you would come around sooner or later. :cheers:

[tpols]

watching flu game right now.:rockon:

I want to apologize for comparing bron to karl Malone though.. this guy is literally a beta version of Lebron

[Young X]

watching flu game right now.:rockon:

I want to apologize for comparing bron to karl Malone though.. this guy is literally a beta version of LebronHe was shooting long fadeaways while being guarded by guys like Brian Williams (RIP). Didn't even bother to foul at the end.

:facepalm

[Straight_Ballin]

the entire cavs team will be healthy going into the finals next year and bron will still manage to shoot like shit in enough 4th qtr games to lose. He's not winning without wade.

[tpols]

He was shooting long fadeaways while being guarded by guys like Brian Williams (RIP). Didn't even bother to foul at the end.

:facepalm

bill Walton grilling him :lol

[dubeta]

the entire cavs team will be healthy going into the finals next year and bron will still manage to shoot like shit in enough 4th qtr games to lose. He's not winning without wade.

Not winning a championship without wade >>> not winning more than 1 playoff game without Pippen

[warriorfan]

And Jordan has more then all of them that is why he is the GOAT


True


/END THREAD

[tpols]

now that I think about it.. karl Malone and bron are both spoiled by the PnR except in reverse roles. Bron still has much superior ballhandling + 1v1 post game and aggression one on one, but makes sense that PnR experts cant also be iso experts.

[HighFlyer23]

Jordan had GOAT talks after the first retirement

Kareem is the only one to compare but I still have Jordan above him

[EllisGW]

If Jordan was sooooo good then why did the Bulls win over 50 games without Jordan and were one game from the east finals. This illustrates people overrate his value

[The_Pharcyde]

If Jordan was sooooo good then why did the Bulls win over 50 games without Jordan and were one game from the east finals. This illustrates people overrate his value

yes a team that won 3 titles in a row was able to make the conference semifinals... led by a coach, system and 2nd option that won 6 total

you can look at the 1994 bulls from 2 different angles, fact of the matter is they were a 2nd round out
when jordan was fully back into form they won 72 games and 69 games the next 2 seasons respectively... titles in both

he and a 34 year old rodman bumped them from a 50win team to an nba record 70+ win team

[The_Pharcyde]

bump

[3ball]

hey, just think - pippen cost the bulls their first championship in 1990.

the pistons beat the blazers in 6 games in Finals, whereas they needed 7 to beat the Bulls...

so if bulls make finals, they beat blazers... but pippen choked in Game 7 of ECF (1-10 for 2 points - he later admitted the pressure got to him)...

this scenario is quite plausible - infact, the bulls beating the blazers is the most likely scenario if pip doesn't choke and bulls beat pistons (based on pistons needing 7 to beat bulls, but only 6 to beat blazers)
.

[hawke812]

If Jordan was sooooo good then why did the Bulls win over 50 games without Jordan and were one game from the east finals. This illustrates people overrate his value

:applause:

Yes! Yes! Yes! I am tired of people praising a slightly above average player in Jordan. He would not do shat in today's NBA. He only won with a super-stacked HOF team. Kobe and Lebron won with less help.

[3ball]

:applause:

Yes! Yes! Yes! I am tired of people praising a slightly above average player in Jordan. He would not do shat in today's NBA. He only won with a super-stacked HOF team. Kobe and Lebron won with less help.
Those Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ... After being a 3-peat team with him... That's the biggest decline ever when a star player leaves the team..

Of course, MJ verified his 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, by coming back and returning the Bulls to 3-peat glory again..

(btw, those 1994 Bulls would've been down 3-0 and likely swept by the Knicks if Kukoc doesn't hit the walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter game)

The stats prove he had less help than anyone else who won championships because he had to put up GOAT stats in the regular season, playoffs and Finals.. There's no way around this math - to win his rings, he had to put up better stats than Lebron or Kobe or anyone.. It's not close really:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381330
.

[SouBeachTalents]

Those Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ... After being a 3-peat team with him... That's the biggest decline ever when a star player leaves the team..

MJ verified his 3-peat to 2nd Round exit impact, by coming back and returning the Bulls to 3-peat glory again.. (btw, those 1994 Bulls would've been down 3-0 and likely swept by the Knicks if Kukoc doesn't hit the walk-off GW in Game 3, while Pippen refused to enter game)

Of course, he had less help than anyone else who won championships, which is why he had to put up GOAT stats in the regular season, playoffs and Finals.. There's no way around this math - to win his rings, he had to put up better stats than Lebron or Kobe or anyone.. It's not close really:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381330

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2015.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1970.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2005.html

[3ball]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2015.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1970.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2005.html
Miami never declined from 3-peat champs to 2nd round (neither did Boston).

The Heat's weak record in 2014 gets them a low seed in the West, where the Spurs destroy them in 1st or 2nd round instead of Finals.. The Heat DID lose far worse than any other West opponent vs. the Spurs.

So the 2014 Heat were equal to a 1st round Western Conference team with Lebron in 2014, that declined to lottery without Lebron (and only because of injuries).

[3ball]

Miami never declined from 3-peat champs to 2nd round (neither did Boston).

The Heat's weak record in 2014 gets them a low seed in the West, where the Spurs destroy them in 1st or 2nd round instead of Finals.. The Heat DID lose far worse than any other West opponent vs. the Spurs.

So the 2014 Heat were equal to a 1st round Western Conference team with Lebron in 2014, that declined to lottery without Lebron (and only because of injuries).


I meant to add that ultimately, MJ had the GOAT impact on decent teams (3-peat to 2nd Round, and then verifying this impact by coming back and returning the Bulls to 3-peat glory).

And he had the GOAT impact on bad teams - in 1989 and 1990, he took a team that would've been lottery without him, to 6 and 7 games with the champs.. Lebron did something similar this year, except his stats were much worse.

Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51.0% in the 1989 playoffs was better than Lebron's 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs - MJ has a 5 point scoring edge and a 10 point efficiency edge, while Lebron has a 4 rebound edge and 1.6 assist edge.. MJ's edges are more valuable for a team's #1 option.

In 1990, MJ averaged 36.8/7.2/6.8 on 51.4% in the playoffs, and took the champion Pistons to 7 games this time.. Again, those stats are better than Lebron's in these playoffs, unless you're disregarding the 10 point efficiency gap and 7 point scoring gap.
.

[superteamtheory]

Of course, MJ verified his 3-peat to 2nd Round impact, by coming back and returning the Bulls to 3-peat glory again..

:facepalm

so i guess this just magically never happened then...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1995-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-bulls-vs-magic.html

...

of course Jordan as the GOAT has huge impact on his teams (and the drop off from winning it all to 2nd round is big even if Bulls almost made conference finals / eventually finals that year by losing 1 seventh game) ...

it's also just, common sense now, what matchups you run into -- Bulls finally met a team with talent level comparable to theirs and... they lost.
in round 2.
in less games than the year before without MJ..
(the vengeful sweep of Shaq & Penny in 96 is impressive but they are up a Rodman while Magic are down a Horace Grant..)

OTOH, it proves nothing about Jordan exactly, it's just the way it went down..

I mean, unless you're trying to build this great big mythology about Jordan taking Bulls from a 2nd rounder to threepeat again, then it proves you have a selective POV because you're a biased, agenda driven Jordan jock-rider..

that same sort of skewed logic allows statements like: Jordan lead a would-be lottery team to a threepeat ... because 1990 didn't happen either.. because MJ never lost a Finals-type series he had a shot at winning.. :rolleyes:



Miami never declined from 3-peat champs to 2nd round (neither did Boston).

The Heat's weak record in 2014 gets them a low seed in the West, where the Spurs destroy them in 1st or 2nd round instead of Finals.. The Heat DID lose far worse than any other West opponent vs. the Spurs.

So the 2014 Heat were equal to a 1st round Western Conference team with Lebron in 2014, that declined to lottery without Lebron (and only because of injuries).

thing is, that's the team Bron is working with in the 2014 Finals, a Wade whose body craps out after 3 games but he keeps playing because, well, what other option do they have..

or does anybody here really believe Wade was 100% games 4&5? (or even the whole series..) or even if he was and that's just what Wade is at this point of his career... ...how again does this reflect badly on Bron in terms of not being able to win in 2014?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2095766-dwyane-wade-proving-a-shell-of-himself-in-2014-nba-finals

ps. no Heat didn't go from threepeaters to 2nd round... I mean, they did go from being a 4x Eastern conference champ to a 1st round exit (possibly at Bron's hands, how sweet it is) pre-Dragic trade (which was also pre-Bosh clot).. I kno, I kno, Wade is in & out of lineup too but the general point is, these Heat weren't that hot without Bron after being a contender or winner (50-50) the last 4 years...

[3ball]

you're trying to build this great big mythology about Jordan taking Bulls from a 2nd rounder to threepeat again



That's the historical record - that's EXACTLY what happened.

MJ led the Bulls to 3-peat... Then he retired and they dropped to 2nd Round.

He returned, and they returned to 3-peat glory.

But okay bud, it was just coincidence.. jfc

[Sakkreth]

what puts Iguodala above curry?

Why u put curry in this thread ? we arguing fmvps here.

[pauk]

11 titles in 13 years

also was the fmvp (its even named/created because of/after him) in all those championship runs.... thats more times than MJ, Lebron & Kobe combined...

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2817947/billbored.gif

[ClipperRevival]

11 titles in 13 years

also was the fmvp (its even named/created because of/after him) in all those championship runs.... thats more times than MJ, Lebron & Kobe combined...

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2817947/billbored.gif

And couldn't dominate on one end.

Sorry, but for my criteria for GOAT big man, I need him to dominate on both ends. I would take a handful of C before I take Russell if I were starting a team. Russell would have to be matched up carefully with another 4 or 5 (depending on what position he plays) to maximize his talents.

[The_Pharcyde]

11 titles in 13 years

also was the fmvp (its even named/created because of/after him) in all those championship runs.... thats more times than MJ, Lebron & Kobe combined...

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2817947/billbored.gif

bill has a case measured against any player

but i think even the biggest russell fan can admit that it was a different league back then and while greatness transcends time and the great ones can play in any era... it was.... easier

i hate the term easier but with the sample size being exponentially smaller in regards to talent globally and the money from all the billionaires not poured in yet to refine the league...it enabled the league to have less parody

the racial issues play a role in all of this also

but none the less he did accomplish what he accomplished, but context has to be served

[superteamtheory]

That's the historical record - that's EXACTLY what happened.
[/I]

:biggums:

what exactly happened is he came back and they lost in the 2nd round just like year before..

what exactly happened before first threepeat is there is a year between your 89 "would be" lottery team and the...

ahh why am I even arguing with a guy who can't even handle the concept of matching player years by their post-highschool experience ...

and who will routinely try to put words in your mouth ("it's all coincidence"? what i didn't say that.. i may have said it's all rosters/matchups..)

[triangleoffense]

lol at people arguing for Russell as GOAT.. 99% of them are salty Celtic fans.

[3ball]

what exactly happened is he came back and they lost in the 2nd round just like year before..


Only fools think the chemistry was the same after 17 games.. More importantly, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER was new except Pippen.

But in his first full season, MJ restored the Bulls to 3-peat, despite having a completely different team.

You're forgetting that MJ was the biggest reason for every championship and both 3-peats, no matter how you slice it.. It's retarded to dispute such common knowledge.





what exactly happened before first threepeat is there is a year between your 89 "would be" lottery team and the...


Exactly - that's the goat impact - in 1989, MJ took a team that would've been lottery without him, to ECF and one season away from starting a 3-peat.

That's the goat impact - lottery team to ECF and 1 season away from starting 3-peat.. That's historical fact.

Don't feel too bad - Lebron also took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs, like MJ did in 1989.. But Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to MJ's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has 5-point scoring edge and 11-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 2 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

[nba_55]

The luxury of having one of the most stacked teams of all-time. :applause:

[3ball]

The luxury of having one of the most stacked teams of all-time.


More than Bird's Celtics?.. Obviously not.


More than Magic's Lakers?.. :oldlol:

More than Kobe's Shaq?... :wtf:

More than Dr. J's Fo-Fo-Fo... :hammerhead:

More than a 10-time all-star as your 3rd option (Bosh) AND 25 ppg Wade?.. :biggums:

More than Ginobili, Parker, Kawhi?.. Now you've gone and lost it

More than KG's "original" big 3?... :yaohappy:




MJ's cast never came close to these, which is why he needed better stats than all these guys.. :hammertime:

[nba_55]

More than Bird's Celtics?.. Obviously not.


More than Magic's Lakers?.. :oldlol:

More than Kobe's Shaq?... :wtf:

More than Dr. J's Fo-Fo-Fo... :hammerhead:

More than a 10-time all-star as your 3rd option (Bosh) AND 25 ppg Wade?.. :biggums:

More than Ginobili, Parker, Kawhi?.. Now you've gone and lost it

More than KG's "original" big 3?... :yaohappy:




MJ's cast never came close to these, which is why he needed better stats than all these guys.. :hammertime:

The answer to almost all of those questions is yes if you are intelligent enough to understand the concept of TEAM.

[triangleoffense]

The answer to almost all of those questions is yes if you are intelligent enough to understand the concept of TEAM.
You do realize that would then make him the best team player of all time if your going off overall record.. 72-10 season best all time by a mile and all the individual accolades to boot carrying the team regular season AND stepping up with better stats in the playoffs and finals. Sorry no NBA player in the history of the league will ever come close.. Lebron had his shot realistically in the 2005 finals and even arguably in 2011 but below both chances. He could have at least have made 2005 more competitive but he got swept and outplayed by Parker in the finals. :facepalm

[funnystuff]

More than Bird's Celtics?.. Obviously not.


More than Magic's Lakers?.. :oldlol:

More than Kobe's Shaq?... :wtf:

More than Dr. J's Fo-Fo-Fo... :hammerhead:

More than a 10-time all-star as your 3rd option (Bosh) AND 25 ppg Wade?.. :biggums:

More than Ginobili, Parker, Kawhi?.. Now you've gone and lost it

More than KG's "original" big 3?... :yaohappy:




MJ's cast never came close to these, which is why he needed better stats than all these guys.. :hammertime:
When MJ left, the Bulls were just as elite and didn't fall off whatsoever. Shut the f*** up already.

[nba_55]

You do realize that would then make him the best team player of all time if your going off overall record.. 72-10 season best all time by a mile and all the individual accolades to boot carrying the team regular season AND stepping up with better stats in the playoffs and finals. Sorry no NBA player in the history of the league will ever come close.. Lebron had his shot realistically in the 2005 finals and even arguably in 2011 but below both chances. He could have at least have made 2005 more competitive but he got swept and outplayed by Parker in the finals. :facepalm

Your post has nothing to do with what I posted, i was talking about the concept of team and how great the team jordan had around him was. You are posting about Lebron ( I didn't mention him in my post at all, and you are not the only one in this forum to try to bring him in all discussions. On top of that, you are talking about his 2005 finals? LOL It was 2007). You are posting about Jordan being the best team player of all-time going off overall record (2 things I didn't mention in my post).

[CTbasketball92]

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54aac868e4b00f7c5fbf0a24/t/55902b2ee4b0a675d66eab88/1435511599322/?format=750w

and he won 6 titles in 15 years
13 full seasons (excluding the broken foot year and the 17 game comeback season)
but none the less
6/15=40% of seasons he won the title/appeared in the finals

compared to kobe's
5/19
17 if you exclude last 2 injury plagued seasons
5/19= 26% of the time he won the title
7/19= 36% of the time he appeared in the finals

or lebron, 12 full seasons, 2 titles
2/12=16% of the time he won the title
6/12=50% of the time he appeared in the finals

also 6 fmvps for MJ vs 2 each for kobe and lbj
establishes them as the "guy" on the team


Jordan is the GOAT

dominant regular season stats, even more dominant playoff stats and the titles and finals mvps
trifecta

I think MJ has the best argument for #1 of all time, but in terms of peak effectivenss, i.e. ability to dom inate efficiently and take a team far by yourself and play both ways, LeBron is more or less equal to peak MJ. I don't think its a coincidence that tehy're number 1 and 2 at PER all time -- Bron's will go down because he will have played longer --- but in terms of peak its very close.

Jordan was like a 6'6" Westbrook with an incredible midrange and long two point shot and the refined fluidity in the air of D.Rose. Hed has that same inexhaustible motor, but with more control. He was also an elite passer obviously. Its hard for anyone to argue against jordan, but minus all of that etra non-sense, LeBron is the clear number two in terms of all around impact.

[Paul George 24]

KAJ says hi :D
6 rings in 20 years :roll:

[Paul George 24]

Not winning a championship without wade >>> not winning more than 1 playoff game without Pippen
pippen is a role player until 1990,jORDAN MADE PIPPEN,LEFLOP DOMNE NOTHING:banana:

[Paul George 24]

Your post has nothing to do with what I posted, i was talking about the concept of team and how great the team jordan had around him was. You are posting about Lebron ( I didn't mention him in my post at all, and you are not the only one in this forum to try to bring him in all discussions. On top of that, you are talking about his 2005 finals? LOL It was 2007). You are posting about Jordan being the best team player of all-time going off overall record (2 things I didn't mention in my post).

leflop only makeS srtar player around him worse

[superteamtheory]

When MJ left, the Bulls were just as elite and didn't fall off whatsoever. Shut the f*** up already.

he's claiming adding Jordan to a team that was 1 win away from a run to the NBA Finals ... isn't enough of a difference to get them over the hump ... because no training camp / only 17 games..

and yet then turns around also and says Jordan has GOAT impact only when it's convenient..

Jordan may have GOAT impact .. and if he does, they should at least beat Magic in 95 .. unless that year he needed a better supporting cast (for example, no Horace Grant which Orlando now has) , which would then just prove even the GOAT is heavily roster-dependent / matchup dependent ..

anyway, he's said elsewhere he lived in Chicago area in 90's, what else is there to know really..

[3ball]

When MJ left, the Bulls were just as elite and didn't fall off whatsoever. Shut the f*** up already.
They were a 2nd round team when he left, after being a 3-peat team with him.

There's never been a bigger drop-off.. It wasn't just falling from 1 championship to 2nd Round - it was falling from once-in-a-lifetime, 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round... Other than Russell's Celtics, only MJ had 3-peated up until that point.

But you probably don't understand that a team that wins 3 straight championships is FAR better than the many teams that win just 1 or 2 rings, which is why you underrate MJ's impact of three-peat to 2nd Round.
.

[3ball]

Jordan may have GOAT impact .. and if he does, they should at least beat Magic in 95


When MJ came back to the 1995 Bulls, EVERY player was new except Pippen and there were only 17 games left in the regular season.

Only a delusional fool with no other argument would convince himself that chemistry should be the same after 2 years off, only 17 regular season games, and a completely new team -

But in MJ's first full season, he led the Bulls back to a championship and eventually another 3-peat, which VERIFIED his goat 3-peat to 2nd Round impact.
.

[Dbrog]

More than Bird's Celtics?.. Obviously not.


More than Magic's Lakers?.. :oldlol:

More than Kobe's Shaq?... :wtf:

More than Dr. J's Fo-Fo-Fo... :hammerhead:

More than a 10-time all-star as your 3rd option (Bosh) AND 25 ppg Wade?.. :biggums:

More than Ginobili, Parker, Kawhi?.. Now you've gone and lost it

More than KG's "original" big 3?... :yaohappy:




MJ's cast never came close to these, which is why he needed better stats than all these guys.. :hammertime:

It's a good thing he never had to face these, and when he did, he lost. MJ fans need to get their head out of their asses. He's thebomb.com but he's CERTAINLY not without faults and honestly had an INCREDIBLY stacked team for the expansion league he was in.

[sportjames23]

It's a good thing he never had to face these, and when he did, he lost. MJ fans need to get their head out of their asses. He's thebomb.com but he's CERTAINLY not without faults and honestly had an INCREDIBLY stacked team for the expansion league he was in.


I like how dumbass haters like yourself always talk about how MJ's young, shitty Bulls teams lost to the Celtics, while NEVER acknowledging his team was young and shitty.

If a second and third year MJ can drop games of 40+ and 60+ on those Celtics teams and give them fits, what the **** do you think a championship Bulls team with a PRIME MJ would do to them?

Man, sit your stupid ass down.

[rmt]

I dislike MJ intensely, but he is the GOAT.

[The_Pharcyde]

goat

[k0kakw0rld]

Fabricated superstar. :pimp:

[AirBonner]

Fabricated superstar. :pimp:
This. If Charles Barkley was put in the same situation as Jordan he would of won 9 titles

[Straight_Ballin]

goat

https://f1.bcbits.com/img/a2146810928_16.jpg