Scottie Pippen: I Was Lebron Before Lebron

[Ca$H]

"They want to compare him to the greatest whether it be Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson, but he's more closer to myself. It's natural for folks to say that, but if you look at how he plays the game and how I played the game, you'll see more similarities with us." (via Northeast Ohio Media Group)

Makes sense Bran is the ultimate sidekick.

[riseagainst]

:lol

[Rocketswin2013]

actually, no.

[dubeta]

Damn I guess that confirms Brons a minimum 8.5" fully erect

[FatComputerNerd]

It's true

Very similar skillsets.

Scottie was also a great passer, something of a point-forward even, much like Lebron. Always got rebounds too.

He didn't have quite the #1 scorer's mentality (or overall ability to dominate physically) that Lebron's got, but there are obvious similarities.

[FatComputerNerd]

Damn I guess that confirms Brons a minimum 8.5" fully erect

Lol. I almost ended my post with "in before dvck jokes" but held off...then posted and saw your joke :lol

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

The similarities is definitely there. Pippen threw a tantrum when Phil called a play for Kukoc at the end of the game. LeBron threw a tantrum when Blatt called a play not for LeBron at the end of the game.

[Knicksfever2010]

Hopefully Lebron doesnt squander his $425 million net worth and become poor like Pippen.

I'd rather have an average size ***** and be as rich as Lebron instead of being piss poor and hung like Mr. Ed

[aj1987]

The similarities is definitely there. Pippen threw a tantrum when Phil called a play for Kukoc at the end of the game. LeBron threw a tantrum when Blatt called a play not for LeBron at the end of the game.
Difference is Pippen sulked like a child and sat the play. LeBron demanded the ball and made the game winner.

[Rocketswin2013]

It's true

Very similar skillsets.

Scottie was also a great passer, something of a point-forward even, much like Lebron. Always got rebounds too.

He didn't have quite the #1 scorer's mentality (or overall ability to dominate physically) that Lebron's got, but there are obvious similarities.
Yeah but it's like Ricky Rubio calling himself a modern day Kidd. He's literally worse at everything. He may have an edge in defense in their peaks, but it's slight, and debatable.


I hate when old fggots like Pippen prop themselves up and/or give others slights.

[riseagainst]

they may be alike in play style, but Lebron is literally better than Pippen at everything except defense and d1ck size.

[Elosha]

The similarities are also very close with regard to overall athletic ability. They are about the same height, although Lebron is certainly heavier. However, Pippen was a tremendous athlete, incredibly explosive and with extremely long arms. He had a lot of chase down blocks like Lebron in his prime. TBH, Scottie was probably just as fast as Lebron in the open court, equivalent as a one foot jumper and a better jumper than Lebron off two feet. Watch highlights of Pippen and you will see that he's one of those relatively rare players who is a great jumper off one and two feet. You could make a case that Scottie was as good a raw athlete as Lebron, minus the difference in strength/weight.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

True two betas. That's why pippen made those embarrassing comments before 11 finals wanted to make himself feel better

Pip was much better at every aspect of defense, a better rebounder, a better playmaker, transition shooter and had a better post game. Bran was much better scorer because of his way superior physical talent and athleticism

[TheMarkMadsen]

Yeah but it's like Ricky Rubio calling himself a modern day Kidd. He's literally worse at everything. He may have an edge in defense in their peaks, but it's slight, and debatable.


I hate when old fggots like Pippen prop themselves up and/or give others slights.


Are you kidding me..

A slight edge on defense?? Pippen is miles better than bran defensively.

[Fudge]

Lesser players always trying to compare themselves to all-time greats.

:lol :lol :lol

That's the only way for them to stay somewhat relevant in the basketball world.

Who's next to compare themselves to Bron, just for a quick 15 secs in the spotlight when they're out of the league/retired? I'm putting money on Kobe.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Are you kidding me..

A slight edge on defense?? Pippen is miles better than bran defensively.
He never saw pippen play, there was this thread bout 90s ball where he got completely exposed. He just copies and pastes posts from realgm that's where he gets most of his bball knowledge from

[dynasty1978]

Similar skills, I suppose. Lebron, however, has produced and dominated on a level that Pippen never has.

To put it bluntly, Pippen's best year ('94) would be considered a mediocre year for Lebron.

And I say this as someone who isn't really a fan of either.

[Kobe_6/8]

"They want to compare him to the greatest whether it be Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson, but he's more closer to myself,"

That's some **** Bosh would say. Scottie is over-estimating the value of his own NBA career.

[$LakerGold]

Difference is Pippen sulked like a child and sat the play. LeBron demanded the ball and made the game winner.
And what about Lebron's decision?

[dubeta]

Back on topic, if you combine the best attributes of Pippen and MJ, and make them more athletic, you probably get someone nearly as good as LeBron, so Pippen is half right

[Rocketswin2013]

Are you kidding me..

A slight edge on defense?? Pippen is miles better than bran defensively.
LeBron James 2009 DRTG: 99

Pippen 1994 DRTG: 97

Also, this:


Defense:On court: 100.6 D rating (-7.7 relative to league average)Off court: 108.8 D rating (+0.5 rel to LA)Difference: -8.2 (According to BasketballValue.com, that difference is the 2nd highest in the league behind Pryzbilla)

The Cavs went from #1 D in the league with LeBron on the court to the equivalent of 18th when he left.*6.5 Defensive win shares (#2 in the league, only SF with more in a season are Pippen and Havlicek)10.4 opponent counterpart PER according to 82games (equivalent to this year Alonzo Gee and Francisco Garcia)82games also has opponent SF scoring 12.8 pts/36 and .525 TS% vs LeBron while opposing PF scored 13.3 pts/36 and .484 TS% when LeBron played PF.

And this:

[QUOTE] Here is what some of the top SF of 2009 did vs LeBron offensively (their regular season per 36 in parenthesis)
Durant- 16.4 PPG, .518 TS% (23.3 PPG, .577 TS%)
Pierce- 18.1 PPG, .474 TS% (19.7 PPG, .582 TS%)
Johnson- 13.7 PPG, .475 TS% (19.5 PPG, .534 TS%)
Carmelo- 15.8 PPG, .488 TS% (23.8 PPG, .532 TS%)
Butler- 14.2 PPG, .438 TS% (19.4 PPG, .552 TS%)
Gay- 10.9 PPG, .357 TS% (18.3 PPG, .528 TS%)

Average dropoff: -5.8 PPG, -9.3 TS%What

[Ne 1]

Pippen and LeBron do have a very similar skill set. Both great "all around" complete players and versatile team defenders. They're both jack of all trades. But Pippen was a much better defender than LeBron. IMO, Scottie the best perimeter defender of all time. On ball, playing the lanes, defending the post, coming from the weak side, chase down blocks, full court pressure on PGs... he did it all, consistently. Scottie impacted the game defensively like a a big man (Lead the League in DRT...Only SF to do so in the NBA and also in the playoffs)

The problem is a lot of people seem to just think of Scottie as just Jordan's sidekick when he was so much more. 6'8" with a 7'2" wingspan, but he pretty much played PG offensively, a great finisher, excellent basketball IQ, deadly in transition, good post up player (he could actually score in more ways than LeBron because he could play in the post), capable 3 point shooter, he could rebound as well as some power forwards and one of the rare perimeter players who could impact a game defensively like an elite defensive big man.

Some say he wasn't a true franchise player because he couldn't score enough, yet I'd take 20-22 ppg from Scottie along with his playmaking, defense, rebounding and excellent leadership over the extra 5 ppg and inferior all around game from many of the flashier perimeter players.

[kshutts1]

LeBron James 2009 DRTG: 99

Pippen 1994 DRTG: 97

Also, this:



And this:




Debatable.
I'm sorry, did I just read that Lebron had the second highest *something* after the all-time legend Joel Pryzbilla?

My guess is said stat is likely not that useful is Joel Pryzbilla is the leader.

[FatComputerNerd]

Back on topic, if you combine the best attributes of Pippen and MJ, and make them more athletic, you probably get someone nearly as good as LeBron, so Pippen is half right

Take Pippen and MJ, add in a little Bird, along with some Malone, and perhaps a dash of Iverson on the top.

So yeah, the similarities are obviously there but Pippen was a poor-man's Lebron basically...much like Iggy who also has a similar versatility.

[Lebron23]

Pippen is a poor man's LeBron. But Unlike LeBron he has zero finals MVp, zero scoring title, and zero mvp.

[Rocketswin2013]

He never saw pippen play, there was this thread bout 90s ball where he got completely exposed. Hejust copies and pastes posts from realgm that's where he gets most of his bball knowledge from
You think actually watching Pippen is hard you stupid fcking fggot? The games are accessible as shit and I've watched 8 so '95(not his peak defensively, but close) Bulls games.


Also, the information will be inherently copy and pasted because it comes from 82games.com, you shithead, the RealGM posts only formats it.

And, where is this thread where I was "exposed"? Please send the link.

[Magic 32]

And he also said that Lebron was better than Jordan.

So it all makes sense mow.

[Ne 1]

And, where is this thread where I was "exposed"? Please send the link.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164897

[Lebron23]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164897


How did you know that he was RG??

[Rocketswin2013]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164897

:facepalm

[nightprowler10]

Pippen was much better in the post and miles ahead in defensive ability. Lebron is better at everything else.

[TheMarkMadsen]

LeBron James 2009 DRTG: 99

Pippen 1994 DRTG: 97

Also, this:



And this:




Debatable.

These fuccing stat nerds :facepalm :facepalm

Dirk career DRGT: 104

Gary Payton career DRGT: 106


Wow DRGT shows us that Dirk > Gary Payton as a defender.

Jordan's DRGT is 104, so Dirk and Jordan are pretty comparable as defenders.


/End sarcasm

[Indian guy]

Pippen's not that far off. LeBron's basically him on steroids. They play the same position and have a similar skill-set. The big difference is, LeBron weighs 30 more pounds and is significantly more explosive in the half-court(which is saying something, because Pippen was a terrific athlete), which gives him the ability to consistently get inside and finish like Pippen, or any other perimeter player for that matter, couldn't. LeBron's Top 5 all time in ppg in both regular season and playoffs. All at excellent efficiency. Pippen didn't have anywhere close to that kind of ability.

[Rocketswin2013]

These fuccing stat nerds :facepalm :facepalm

Dirk career DRGT: 104

Gary Payton career DRGT: 106


Wow DRGT shows us that Dirk > Gary Payton as a defender.

Jordan's DRGT is 104, so Dirk and Jordan are pretty comparable as defenders.


/End sarcasm
What a straw man. I clearly posted more than just DRTG. There was DWS, +/- and traditional stats in there. You don't just pick one. It's a collective thing. This is pretty obvious.

[PP34Deuce]

Pippen was much better in the post and miles ahead in defensive ability. Lebron is better at everything else.

Lebron at his peak vs pippen is faster stronger and more explosive.
Lebron is a slightly better rebounder
Lebron is a better passer
Lebron is a better post offense player.

Pippen could handle switching on PG's and PF's easier and that's his only advantage.

[TheMarkMadsen]

This is pretty obvious.

correct, Lebron not being anywhere close to Pippen as a defender is pretty damn obvious..

Pippen has 10 all defensive selections.. 8x first team..

bran has 6 all defensive selections.. 5x first team.. and as of 2015 is already being left off of the all defensive teams

Its obvious you never watched Pippen play

[AirFederer]

Only Pippens D overshadows Bron

[Smoke117]

correct, Lebron not being anywhere close to Pippen as a defender is pretty damn obvious..

Pippen has 10 all defensive selections.. 8x first team..

bran has 6 all defensive selections.. 5x first team.. and as of 2015 is already being left off of the all defensive teams

Its obvious you never watched Pippen play

Because your argument is so valid? Kobe has all those undeserved 1st team all defensive nods...figures this is what you would support. Pippen is better defensively, but not because he has more defensive team selections.

[GimmeThat]

if we are comparing Pippen and Lebron.

you know what's the differenc between just a few seconds in the air?

[Lebron23]

Because your argument is so valid? Kobe has all those undeserved 1st team all defensive nods...figures this is what you would support. Pippen is better defensively, but not because he has more defensive team selections.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Rocketswin2013]

No point of arguing.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Because your argument is so valid? Kobe has all those undeserved 1st team all defensive nods...figures this is what you would support. Pippen is better defensively, but not because he has more defensive team selections.

of course you would bring up Kobe

[TheMarkMadsen]

No point of arguing.

because you are wrong

[#number6ix#]

It's easy to be a great defender when you can hand check to slow ya man down...

[K Xerxes]

Peak Bron when he clamped down on defense isn't that far from Pip. But he wasn't good enough consistently to really come close overall.

[Mass Debator]

This is actually true. The difference is 50 lbs and a few inches in wingspan. Lebron is stronger and Pippen is quicker on his feet. Being heavier, Lebron can bulldoze more easily for points. Pippen couldn't go through his defender with his slim profile.

[STATUTORY]

This is actually true. The difference is 50 lbs and a few inches in wingspan. Lebron is stronger and Pippen is quicker on his feet. Being heavier, Lebron can bulldoze more easily for points. Pippen couldn't go through his defender with his slim profile.

there is a big d!ck alpha joke there somewhere

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pippen always did have an inflated sense of how good he actually was.

[Ne 1]

Peak Pippen was actually very close to mid 80s Magic statistically speaking...

'94 Pippen:

22/9/6/3 on 49%
All-defensive first team
Bulls were 51-21 in games he played, and 4-6 without him

'85 Magic:
18/6/13/2 on 56%
Lakers were 57-20 in games he played, and 5-0 without him

Magic is obviously the better offensive player (and would go on to become an even better player after 1987), but Pippen has a huge huge edge defensively. But had Pippen's prime come in the mid 80s, against a worse league defensively and while playing on a faster pace (imagine even more transition scoring opportunities for Scottie), is a 24/10/7 season on 50+% really out of the question here? Maybe even something like 25/10/8 if he played in the mid 80s run and gun Western Conference (defensively those were some of the worst conferences in NBA history, almost every team gave up 110+ ppg). Pippen can lock down Magic in a one on one matchup as we've already seen in '91, but can you say the same is true the other way around? I think '87-'89 Magic > any version of Pippen, but mid 80s Magic vs. Pippen is a really good comparison imo. Both players can dominate a game while taking less than 10 shots too.

[Rocketswin2013]

because you are wrong
:oldlol:

You have posted absolutely nothing in this thread to prove it. I mentioned peak years(single seasons for both) and you brought up something stupid about all-defensive selection totals. Something predicated on longevity.


You have absolutely no reading comprehension and no ability to take on an objective discussion on basketball. Stick to worshipping Kobe.

[HurricaneKid]

Pippin: "LeBron is better than MJ".

Later...

Pippin: "Me and LeBron are the same".

Seems pretty straight forward to me...

[riseagainst]

Pippin: "LeBron is better than MJ".

Later...

Pippin: "Me and LeBron are the same".

Seems pretty straight forward to me...

Pippen thinks he is better than MJ.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Being the playmakers for their respective teams, and having defensive versatility (they could guard 1-4's consistently) is obviously something they have in common. What separates them though is their scoring arsenal and athleticism. Not to say Pippen lacked those 2 gifts (great in the post, had pretty good footwork and a nice midrange game), but when push comes to shove, LeBron's ability to put up HUGE offensive numbers, on call, is something Pippen could never do.

LeBron's Game 6 vs Boston... His series vs the Magic... Pip, as great as he was, isn't that caliber of a player.

Bron is essentially Pippen on growth hormone AND steroids.

[theballerFKA Ace]

He may have an edge in defense in their peaks, but it's slight, and debatable.

http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/jerry-seinfeld-kramer-pocker-face-Newman-winner-laugh.gif

[TheMarkMadsen]

:oldlol:

You have posted absolutely nothing in this thread to prove it. I mentioned peak years(single seasons for both) and you brought up something stupid about all-defensive selection totals. Something predicated on longevity.


You have absolutely no reading comprehension and no ability to take on an objective discussion on basketball. Stick to worshipping Kobe.

you brought up DRGT which is a team stat, and then proceeded to back track from that same stat..

all you have are some ridiculous advance stats that weren't even created to be used to compare individual players.. yet here you are.. using them to compare to individual players



and you brought up something stupid about all-defensive selection totals..Something predicated on longevity.

Pippen in his first 10 years in the league had more all defensive selections than Lebron has had in his entire career..

[imnew09]

Lol imagine Pippen guarding Lebeta? Wouldve gotten him some fmvps

[Rocketswin2013]

you brought up DRGT which is a team stat, and then proceeded to back track from that same stat..

all you have are some ridiculous advance stats that weren't even created to be used to compare individual players.. yet here you are.. using them to compare to individual players




Pippen in his first 10 years in the league had more all defensive selections than Lebron has had in his entire career..
I brought 2 other advanced stats and traditional stats that showed good NBA SF's were horrible when being guarded by LeBron, and elite when not.

Mentioning DRGT as if it were the majority of the facts I brought is the prime example of a straw man.

And again, your stupid and incessant mentioning of multi-year awards in a single-year argument is embarrassing.

[Real14]

http://media.giphy.com/media/10Shl99Vghh5aU/giphy.gif

[WorldWarriors]

LOL No Scottie. Have a seat.

[pegasus]

Lebron is a glorified Pippen with less D. His defense is worse too.

[riseagainst]

Lebron is a glorified Pippen with less D. His defense is worse too.

:lol

[hateraid]

Lebron is a glorified Pippen with less D. His defense is worse too.
Recognizes Pippen is better than Lebron
Refuses to admit Jordan had a stacked team

[Straight_Ballin]

Pippin is 6/6 and has no desire to be relevant in today's NBA. He's already a household name. People like bald should be thankful that he even takes the time to utter his name in the same breath.

[KendrickPerkins]

Lesser players always trying to compare themselves to all-time greats.

:lol :lol :lol

That's the only way for them to stay somewhat relevant in the basketball world.

Who's next to compare themselves to Bron, just for a quick 15 secs in the spotlight when they're out of the league/retired? I'm putting money on Kobe.
:roll:

[STATUTORY]

Lebron is a glorified Pippen with less D. His defense is worse too.
this did not go unnoticed :applause: :applause:

[Ca$H]

Pippen and LeBron do have a very similar skill set. Both great "all around" complete players and versatile team defenders. They're both jack of all trades. But Pippen was a much better defender than LeBron. IMO, Scottie the best perimeter defender of all time. On ball, playing the lanes, defending the post, coming from the weak side, chase down blocks, full court pressure on PGs... he did it all, consistently. Scottie impacted the game defensively like a a big man (Lead the League in DRT...Only SF to do so in the NBA and also in the playoffs)

The problem is a lot of people seem to just think of Scottie as just Jordan's sidekick when he was so much more. 6'8" with a 7'2" wingspan, but he pretty much played PG offensively, a great finisher, excellent basketball IQ, deadly in transition, good post up player (he could actually score in more ways than LeBron because he could play in the post), capable 3 point shooter, he could rebound as well as some power forwards and one of the rare perimeter players who could impact a game defensively like an elite defensive big man.

Some say he wasn't a true franchise player because he couldn't score enough, yet I'd take 20-22 ppg from Scottie along with his playmaking, defense, rebounding and excellent leadership over the extra 5 ppg and inferior all around game from many of the flashier perimeter players.

Replace Bran with peak Pippen on the 2011 Heat = championship.

[magic chiongson]

"They want to compare him to the greatest whether it be Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson, but he's more closer to myself. It's natural for folks to say that, but if you look at how he plays the game and how I played the game, you'll see more similarities with us." (via Northeast Ohio Media Group)

Makes sense Bran is the ultimate sidekick.

pippen's right, he's not even saying he was as good as lebron is. lebron's like an upgraded pippen.

[aj1987]

Pippen and LeBron do have a very similar skill set. Both great "all around" complete players and versatile team defenders. They're both jack of all trades. But Pippen was a much better defender than LeBron. IMO, Scottie the best perimeter defender of all time. On ball, playing the lanes, defending the post, coming from the weak side, chase down blocks, full court pressure on PGs... he did it all, consistently. Scottie impacted the game defensively like a a big man (Lead the League in DRT...Only SF to do so in the NBA and also in the playoffs)

The problem is a lot of people seem to just think of Scottie as just Jordan's sidekick when he was so much more. 6'8" with a 7'2" wingspan, but he pretty much played PG offensively, a great finisher, excellent basketball IQ, deadly in transition, good post up player (he could actually score in more ways than LeBron because he could play in the post), capable 3 point shooter, he could rebound as well as some power forwards and one of the rare perimeter players who could impact a game defensively like an elite defensive big man.

Some say he wasn't a true franchise player because he couldn't score enough, yet I'd take 20-22 ppg from Scottie along with his playmaking, defense, rebounding and excellent leadership over the extra 5 ppg and inferior all around game from many of the flashier perimeter players.
So, you'd take Pippen over Kobe?

[Ca$H]

Lebron is a glorified Pippen with less D. His defense is worse too.

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[bizil]

When it comes to the evolution of the point forward and defensive versatility, Pip is right. BUT in terms of creative passing ability and triple double shit he's more like Magic. When it comes to the combination of freak athletic ability and the ability to average 30 points, 8 boards, and 8 assists in a season, he's more like MJ.

And frankly, Bron is more like MJ and Magic in terms of their TOTAL IMPACT and place in the game. In my opinion, the top five perimeter players of all time peak and GOAT wise are MJ, Magic, Bron, Kobe, and Bird. Pip simply was NEVER on that kind of level. Didn't prove he could grab a game by the throat like the other five.

Lebron is a combo of these five players for the following reasons:

Magic - similar height, triple double ability, and offensive versatility

Big O- Pass first player capable of getting 30 points a night and triple double ability

Pippen- similar height, freak athlete, Point forward ability, and defensive versatility

Dr. J- freak athletic ability in the open court, prefer the one foot takeoff, unstoppable alpha dog scorer, slashing is their best scoring weapon

Karl Malone- At 6'8 and 260 pounds, Bron has the body makeup of the Mailman

[smoovegittar]

They both took themselves out of playoff games, so I can see a similarity...

[Ne 1]

So, you'd take Pippen over Kobe?
Well I'd take prime Pippen (1991-1998) over 2000 Kobe, but when Kobe matured later in the 2001 season and postseason, from that point on he was on a different level and as great as Scottie was, better than he ever was. Kobe produced and took over games with his scoring at a level Pippen couldn't. Kobe is also more clutch. Scottie was the better defensive player and rebounder (although Kobe is no slouch here though) and both ran their team's offense and were the closest things they had to a point guard, although Pippen had more of that mentality.

[SpecialQue]

Damn I guess that confirms Brons a minimum 8.5" fully erect

This is the only good post you've ever made.

You can retire now.

[bizil]

Pippen did revolutionize the SF position in a HUGE WAY! He was a 6'8 freak athlete and combined it with Hondo's all around skillset. That combo of skills and athletic ability was never seen at the SF. And Pippen had the handles and pace of the elite PG's. AND could guard them as well. From all of this, Pip became the modern prototype point forward.

From Pippen, the next guy in line for this style of SF-point forward was Grant Hill. Hill was a better scorer than Pippen. Hill was damn near a combination of Pippen and Dr. J. He was being groomed to be the new age Dr. J of the NBA. He had the freakish athletic ability, scoring ability, and off the court persona of Doc. Sadly, Hill couldn't be around for the long haul due to injuries. For all intents and purposes, Hill was the link between Pippen and Lebron.

[Dizzle-2k7]

When it comes to the evolution of the point forward and defensive versatility, Pip is right. BUT in terms of creative passing ability and triple double shit he's more like Magic. When it comes to the combination of freak athletic ability and the ability to average 30 points, 8 boards, and 8 assists in a season, he's more like MJ.

And frankly, Bron is more like MJ and Magic in terms of their TOTAL IMPACT and place in the game. In my opinion, the top five perimeter players of all time peak and GOAT wise are MJ, Magic, Bron, Kobe, and Bird. Pip simply was NEVER on that kind of level. Didn't prove he could grab a game by the throat like the other five.

Lebron is a combo of these five players for the following reasons:

Magic - similar height, triple double ability, and offensive versatility

Big O- Pass first player capable of getting 30 points a night and triple double ability

Pippen- similar height, freak athlete, Point forward ability, and defensive versatility

Dr. J- freak athletic ability in the open court, prefer the one foot takeoff, unstoppable alpha dog scorer, slashing is their best scoring weapon

Karl Malone- At 6'8 and 260 pounds, Bron has the body makeup of the Mailman


:applause: :applause: :applause:

i totally agree.. notice MJ nowhere on that list.. Bron doesnt come close to MJ or Kobe in terms of scoring ability.

[Prometheus]

True two betas. That's why pippen made those embarrassing comments before 11 finals wanted to make himself feel better

Pip was much better at every aspect of defense, a better rebounder, a better playmaker, transition shooter and had a better post game. Bran was much better scorer because of his way superior physical talent and athleticism

F*cking moron over here...

:facepalm

[ShackEelOKneel]

Only Pippens D overshadows Bron

Perfect double entendre :applause:

[SexSymbol]

LeBron James 2009 DRTG: 99

Pippen 1994 DRTG: 97

Also, this:



And this:




Debatable.
LeBron was a shitty defender in 09.

[bizil]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

i totally agree.. notice MJ nowhere on that list.. Bron doesnt come close to MJ or Kobe in terms of scoring ability.

I don't really see why people compare Bron to MJ. In terms of being the best player in the world AND a freakish athlete I can see it. But other than that, he reminds me more of guys like a Magic, Pippen, and Big O. In the open court finishing, he reminds me of Dr. J more than anybody else.

[TheMan]

Pippen did revolutionize the SF position in a HUGE WAY! He was a 6'8 freak athlete and combined it with Hondo's all around skillset. That combo of skills and athletic ability was never seen at the SF. And Pippen had the handles and pace of the elite PG's. AND could guard them as well. From all of this, Pip became the modern prototype point forward.

From Pippen, the next guy in line for this style of SF-point forward was Grant Hill. Hill was a better scorer than Pippen. Hill was damn near a combination of Pippen and Dr. J. He was being groomed to be the new age Dr. J of the NBA. He had the freakish athletic ability, scoring ability, and off the court persona of Doc. Sadly, Hill couldn't be around for the long haul due to injuries. For all intents and purposes, Hill was the link between Pippen and Lebron.
Yeah, injuries cost Hill a chance at being among the GOATs

[iamgine]

Nowhere did Pippen said he's better or equal to Lebron.

He said Lebron's more similar to him than to Magic or Jordan.

Which is...pretty accurate.

It's like if Andrew Bynum says Shaq was more similar to him than to MJ or Magic.

It's true.

[Prime_Shaq]

LeBron > Pippen in scoring.
Pippen >>> LeBron on defense.

[dubeta]

LeBron > Pippen in scoring.
Pippen >>> LeBron on defense.



Lol the gap in scoring is far greater than the gap in defense


Scoring, rebounding, passing >>>>> LeBron


Perimeter defense slightly Pippen > LeBron


Interior defense LeBron > Pippen

[Prime_Shaq]

Pippen did revolutionize the SF position in a HUGE WAY! He was a 6'8 freak athlete and combined it with Hondo's all around skillset. That combo of skills and athletic ability was never seen at the SF. And Pippen had the handles and pace of the elite PG's. AND could guard them as well. From all of this, Pip became the modern prototype point forward.

From Pippen, the next guy in line for this style of SF-point forward was Grant Hill. Hill was a better scorer than Pippen. Hill was damn near a combination of Pippen and Dr. J. He was being groomed to be the new age Dr. J of the NBA. He had the freakish athletic ability, scoring ability, and off the court persona of Doc. Sadly, Hill couldn't be around for the long haul due to injuries. For all intents and purposes, Hill was the link between Pippen and Lebron.
Grant Hill was my favourite player after Shaq in the 90s man... Dude was a beast

[bizil]

Grant Hill was my favourite player after Shaq in the 90s man... Dude was a beast

Hell ya! To be honest with you, Hill in many ways was a sleeker more streamlined version of Lebron. We got to see some great Pippen-Hill battles. From there, we were supposed to see some great Hill-Bron battles. When Bron first got in the league, Hill was only 31 years old. Bron was the best SF in the world arguably after his rookie year. And FOR SURE after his second year. Having a peak G Hill around would have made LeBron work for the best SF in the world crown a bit longer. Bron was getting 27 points, 7 boards, and 7 dimes his 2nd year in the L. Hill was capable of those same kind of numbers.

[Angel Face]

Pippen is way better defensively, has better footwork and post offense.

[Dragonyeuw]

Hell ya! To be honest with you, Hill in many ways was a sleeker more streamlined version of Lebron. We got to see some great Pippen-Hill battles. From there, we were supposed to see some great Hill-Bron battles. When Bron first got in the league, Hill was only 31 years old. Bron was the best SF in the world arguably after his rookie year. And FOR SURE after his second year. Having a peak G Hill around would have made LeBron work for the best SF in the world crown a bit longer. Bron was getting 27 points, 7 boards, and 7 dimes his 2nd year in the L. Hill was capable of those same kind of numbers.

We never got to see if he would put up those kind of across the board numbers. His first few years he was like 21/9/7, then he shot up to nearly 26ppg but rebounding and assists dipped. Unfortunately he injured his foot right after that so we were robbed of his prime years. Maybe he would be a 27/7/7 guy, maybe not, great player regardless and a shame injuries robbed us all of a likely top 30 alltime great career.

[bizil]

We never got to see if he would put up those kind of across the board numbers. His first few years he was like 21/9/7, then he shot up to nearly 26ppg but rebounding and assists dipped. Unfortunately he injured his foot right after that so we were robbed of his prime years. Maybe he would be a 27/7/7 guy, maybe not, great player regardless and a shame injuries robbed us all of a likely top 30 alltime great career.

Well said! G Hill never really got experience that true 4-5 year peak window. U know that 27-32 age range (some guys it could be longer) where u have your physical prowess meet up with your mental prowess perfectly. The guys like MJ and Kobe got their early prime years, peak years, and backend prime years. Hill at best just had some early prime years. Sadly he missed out big time on the other two phases. Maybe one peak kind of year at best.

[Smoke117]

Tracy Mcgrady was actually the closest thing to Scottie Pippen that has come along. Tmac was much more of a scorer in general with Scottie more defense oriented, but they had really similar skill sets and are a really close match as far as their build and athleticism goes. Tmac was even pretty much running the point too on the Rockets. Pippen was one of his basketball heroes growing up so it shouldn't really be surprising.

[97 bulls]

Peak Pippen was actually very close to mid 80s Magic statistically speaking...

'94 Pippen:

22/9/6/3 on 49%
All-defensive first team
Bulls were 51-21 in games he played, and 4-6 without him

'85 Magic:
18/6/13/2 on 56%
Lakers were 57-20 in games he played, and 5-0 without him

Magic is obviously the better offensive player (and would go on to become an even better player after 1987), but Pippen has a huge huge edge defensively. But had Pippen's prime come in the mid 80s, against a worse league defensively and while playing on a faster pace (imagine even more transition scoring opportunities for Scottie), is a 24/10/7 season on 50+% really out of the question here? Maybe even something like 25/10/8 if he played in the mid 80s run and gun Western Conference (defensively those were some of the worst conferences in NBA history, almost every team gave up 110+ ppg). Pippen can lock down Magic in a one on one matchup as we've already seen in '91, but can you say the same is true the other way around? I think '87-'89 Magic > any version of Pippen, but mid 80s Magic vs. Pippen is a really good comparison imo. Both players can dominate a game while taking less than 10 shots too.
I've been screaming this for the longest. I remember saying that Pippen in the 80s statistically would've been averaging 25/10/7 easily. And got lambasted because those were Larry Birds numbers.

[Smoke117]

Peak Pippen was actually very close to mid 80s Magic statistically speaking...

'94 Pippen:

22/9/6/3 on 49%
All-defensive first team
Bulls were 51-21 in games he played, and 4-6 without him

'85 Magic:
18/6/13/2 on 56%
Lakers were 57-20 in games he played, and 5-0 without him

Magic is obviously the better offensive player (and would go on to become an even better player after 1987), but Pippen has a huge huge edge defensively. But had Pippen's prime come in the mid 80s, against a worse league defensively and while playing on a faster pace (imagine even more transition scoring opportunities for Scottie), is a 24/10/7 season on 50+% really out of the question here? Maybe even something like 25/10/8 if he played in the mid 80s run and gun Western Conference (defensively those were some of the worst conferences in NBA history, almost every team gave up 110+ ppg). Pippen can lock down Magic in a one on one matchup as we've already seen in '91, but can you say the same is true the other way around? I think '87-'89 Magic > any version of Pippen, but mid 80s Magic vs. Pippen is a really good comparison imo. Both players can dominate a game while taking less than 10 shots too.

Scottie could have EASILY scored more in a different offense. I don't know how many times I've had to say it, so I guess one more time won't hurt: The triangle offense is a SLOW DOWN OFFENSE. Scottie was at his best scoring in the OPEN COURT. (one of the best ever in that regards) A slow down offense means you aren't going to see too many chances to break out into the open court in general. Just look at Drexler...he didn't have anything in his arsenal that Pippen didn't and it some cases had less (he never had much of a post game), yet because he was playing in these run and gun up tempo offenses on the Blazers he was averaging 27ppg two seasons in a row. (and 8apg even one season) He couldn't average nearly that playing in the triangle offense and playing with Jordan. You throw Pippen into that system? He'd be good for 25+ points, 8-9 assist, 7 rebounds.

[knicksman]

Im pretty sure jordan and kobe are better all around players than bran or pippen. Its just that they arent insecure like bran who needs to constantly needs to show off his skills thru statpadding.

[julizaver]

"They want to compare him to the greatest whether it be Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson, but he's more closer to myself. It's natural for folks to say that, but if you look at how he plays the game and how I played the game, you'll see more similarities with us." (via Northeast Ohio Media Group)

Makes sense Bran is the ultimate sidekick.

I have watched Pippen a lot during his prime and the only area he is better than Lebron is defense, but he is nowhere the player Lebron is. The biggest similarity is their versatility. I have watched a lot of Bulls games back then and when MJ retired in 1993 Pippen become a leader of the Bulls. And they got to to ECF. Even without MJ they were formidable team and with the addition of rookie Kukoc they got even more bench depth (10 ppg and hitting several game winners during reg.season and post). They've got the Pippen, Grant and Armstrong in their prime having career years. They have 4 seven footers at center and have 11 players averaging between 24 and 10 minutes per game - and that's quite a rotation. They've got the championship experience and championship mentality. Put Lebron in that team instead of Pippen and I bet my money on Bulls beating GSW in 2015 Finals.

[SwayDizzle]

so true tho. Kobe and Bron are what MJ and Scottie would have been like if they hadn't played on the same team.

[dubeta]

so true tho. Kobe and Bron are what MJ and Scottie would have been like if they hadn't played on the same team.


So Scottie would have averaged more points, rebounds, and assists than MJ if they were on different teams?

[brain drain]

Beta recognize beta.

[unknowns8]

Damn I guess that confirms Brons a minimum 8.5" fully erect

:facepalm

u got serious issues mate

[DCL]

it's like detlef shrempf saying he was dirk before dirk :lol

[sd3035]

:facepalm

u got serious issues mate

he's just not very good at trolling :lol

[Dro]

The similarities are also very close with regard to overall athletic ability. They are about the same height, although Lebron is certainly heavier. However, Pippen was a tremendous athlete, incredibly explosive and with extremely long arms. He had a lot of chase down blocks like Lebron in his prime. TBH, Scottie was probably just as fast as Lebron in the open court, equivalent as a one foot jumper and a better jumper than Lebron off two feet. Watch highlights of Pippen and you will see that he's one of those relatively rare players who is a great jumper off one and two feet. You could make a case that Scottie was as good a raw athlete as Lebron, minus the difference in strength/weight.
:applause:

[riseagainst]

So Scottie would have averaged more points, rebounds, and assists than MJ if they were on different teams?

is this logic?
:biggums:
:wtf:

[Dragonyeuw]

Scottie could have EASILY scored more in a different offense. I don't know how many times I've had to say it, so I guess one more time won't hurt: The triangle offense is a SLOW DOWN OFFENSE. Scottie was at his best scoring in the OPEN COURT. (one of the best ever in that regards) A slow down offense means you aren't going to see too many chances to break out into the open court in general. Just look at Drexler...he didn't have anything in his arsenal that Pippen didn't and it some cases had less (he never had much of a post game), yet because he was playing in these run and gun up tempo offenses on the Blazers he was averaging 27ppg two seasons in a row. (and 8apg even one season) He couldn't average nearly that playing in the triangle offense and playing with Jordan. You throw Pippen into that system? He'd be good for 25+ points, 8-9 assist, 7 rebounds.

Agreed. I also think he could have scored more within the triangle during MJ's first retirement if he didn't have to focus as much energy on defense and running the triangle in 94. Scottie averaged nearly 8 rebounds, 6 assists, and 3 steals in 94, those are stellar across the board stats in addition to 22 ppg.

[3ball]

"They want to compare him to the greatest whether it be Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson, BUT he's more closer to myself. It's natural for folks to say that, but if you look at how he plays the game and how I played the game, you'll see more similarities with us." (via Northeast Ohio Media Group)

Makes sense Bran is the ultimate sidekick.



Essentially, "don't compare bran to the greatest (MJ or Magic), compare him to me instead."

That's basically what Pippen said - it's right there in black and white

[pauk]

Pippen is the closest thing to Lebron in terms of gamestyle at that size/position and Pippen was a freak athlete aswell... goat versatility on both ends both of them... Thats exactly what Pippen is saying and actually has been saying since day 1, its very old news... they are simply of the same breed of players... Magic, Penny, Grant and some others maybe fall into that breed aswell but not as much as Pippen due to the defensive side or other stuff...

But "I was Lebron before Lebron" he has never said or meant, its only your interpretation....

[aj1987]

Essentially, "don't compare bran to the greatest (MJ or Magic), compare him to me instead."

That's basically what Pippen said - it's right there in black and white
You do know that he said LeBron's better than MJ, right?

[pauk]

But as far as level of talent/skill/prominency goes Pippen however is very wrong (dont think he was talking about that) as Jordan & Magic indeed were MUCH more closer to Lebrons level... where as Jordan i guess may have even been above...

[3ball]

"They want to compare him to the greatest whether it be Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson, BUT he's more closer to myself..."






- Scottie Pippen


(what more needs to be said)





You do know that Pippen said LeBron's better than MJ, right?


I know that he took it back once he saw people took him serious, and then made clarifying statements saying he "wouldn't let Lebron take him to the movies" (when asked whether he'd prefer to be led by MJ or Lebron).

Btw, Lebron's isolations stats this season provide definitive proof of how much better MJ would do in his shoes: in both the regular season and playoffs, Lebron isolated more than anything else he did - in these playoffs, he isolated on 32.7% of his possessions, which was #1 in the league.

But he only shot 33.1% on these isolations, which reduced his FG% more than any other factor and proved that MJ's far superior isolation ability would've enabled a much better overall efficiency in the same spots.

Again, Lebron's heavy use of isolations coupled with his poor FG% on those isolations lets us know MJ's far superior isolation ability would've enabled a much better efficiency in Lebron's shoes during this playoff run.

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs
.

[3ball]

.
GOAT offensive sophistication and scoring versatility


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/9VPzJD.gif


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2015/f2jwKx.gif


http://i.imgur.com/0l1UUv8.gif

[pauk]

If you included it all about Lebron there really is just nobody who was like Lebron before Lebron... nowhere close, completely unique when you think about it...

Somebody may have dropped Lebronesque stats (Oscar? Bird? Magic? Jordan maybe?)
Somebody may have dominated with that similar level (Jordan? Magic? Bird? hell why not big guys, like Shaq? and so on)
Somebody may have played similar gamestyles offensively (Penny? Pippen? Magic kindof? Oscar? Jordan somewhat? Grant?)
Somebody may have had similar attributes defensively (Pippen, Pistons Rodman? Versatility afterall)
Somebody may have played with similar size (Karl Malone?)
Somebody may have had similar athleticism (Jordan perhaps, not at 6'8-6'9 & 250-270 lbs though)
Somebody may have been as smart.....
and so on....

Nobody ever had ALL of this.... except Lebron...

But if you had to pick just ONE player similar to Lebron & his game.... i guess it would have to be Pippen... similar, but yet, so far away... its like Pippen was a Lebron-lite and Lebron is like a Pippen on steroids...

I mean if Lebron took Pippens spot next to Jordan he/they would have first of all more likely won more championships... and Lebron would have more likely stolen some MVP & FMVP here & there from Jordan... there would be a debate about who is that teams best player 24-7 (no matter what anybody here will say)....

and if Pippen was on Lebrons spot... he would have been nothing but another Iguodala or Kawhi Leonard or something to be honest (minus any championship & FMVP), around there somewhere, he was better i would like to think, but more closer those guys than Lebron... speaking of Iguodala & Kawhi, they are similar to Lebron in the same way Pippen is similar to Lebron aswell.... all have similar size / athleticism & position, all are great/versatile on both ends....

Similar... but so far away....

Its kindof like comparing Kobe & Jordan... extremly similar... but Jordan was a bit more of it all.... except between Pippen & Lebron there is a bigger gap...

[knicksman]

Pippen is right. Bran and him didnt reach the highest level. Anyone who plays this game knows that shot creation is the hardest skill to learn. And bran and pippen just didnt have what it takes to achieve the next level which is to be an elite scorer. It is easier to be an all around player than to be a kobe. Kobe and jordan couldve bran like stats if they dont play off ball. Jordan proved it with his 32-8-8 season. So yeah pippen is right, he and bran arent 1st option material or else he wouldnt be constantly finding a batman who would score for him in the clutch

[3ball]

Pippen is right. Bran and him didnt reach the highest level. Anyone who plays this game knows that shot creation is the hardest skill to learn. And bran and pippen just didnt have what it takes to achieve the next level which is to be an elite scorer. It is easier to be an all around player than to be a kobe. Kobe and jordan couldve bran like stats if they dont play off ball. Jordan proved it with his 32-8-8 season. So yeah pippen is right, he and bran arent 1st option material or else he wouldnt be constantly finding a batman who would score for him in the clutch


I was just thinking this.

Pippen was saying that him and Lebron don't have real like, offensive moves.. They either go right, or go left, or pullup, but no real wrinkles of sophistication beyond that.

Whereas MJ and Magic created plays in a more sophisticated and diverse fashion.. Their moves weren't just straight line or go-right, go-left.

Btw, about Magic - the top 25 career leaders is APG are all point guards, led by Magic at 11.25 APG - #2 thru #25 are all point guards, so there's never been anyone even close to passing as well as Magic that DIDN'T play point guard.. That's how you know Magic would play point guard in today's game.

[bizil]

When u couple all of these factors, why isn't Pippen a top 15 GOAT?:

Six rings
Two Gold Medals
10 Time All Defensive Team
7 Time All Star
7 Time All NBA
Arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever.
Redefined the SF position AND point forward position at the same time

The CLEAR reason why is the scoring stuff. Pippen was a very good scorer. I even think u could win a ring with Pippen as your best player. But the guys like MJ, Magic, Bird, Lebron, West, Big O, and Wade were great all around players AND alpha dogs in one. And that's a combination that Pip couldn't quite get down. Due to that fact, he's at best a top 30 kind of guy. Pip has DOUBLE the rings Larry Bird has. Yet Bird ranks WAY HIGHER THAN Pip on the GOAT list. Why is that?

[3ball]

I even think u could win a ring with Pippen as your best player.


Sure, if you just ADDED him to the 2004 Detroit Pistons.. But that's literally about it.. I can't think of another championship team that he'd be the best player on.

And he certainly can't be DRAFTED to be the best player and build a championship team, at least not in the 80's or 90's era.





(Pippen was) Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.


He's in the conversation with MJ, Payton, and Moncrief.. Moncrief and MJ have the best cases if you go by stats and accolades.

Btw, a lot of people mistakenly think Pippen guarded Magic in the 1991 Finals - Pippen guarded Magic for 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 2... the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3... the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Game 5.

So Pippen guarded Magic for 6 of the 20 quarters (30%), while MJ guarded Magic for 14 of the 20 quarters (70%).

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddik5aZ02uA
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMTY0xJSwRY
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzLssE0Vcm4
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFcMrcXfCcU
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9B9654H0Cc

[Round Mound]

Pippen was Better in Both Perimeter and Post D (Despite the Fact that Lebron is Stronger and Heavier). Pippen is The Best All Around Defender I`ve Ever Seen He Was Like the Garnett of the Point-Forwards Very Unique: Agil, Quick Footed, Amazing Wingspam, One Of The GOAT Anticipators etc (Team Defense Structure: He Was An Anchor at Point-Forward).

Creating, Ballhandling and Timing Plays He Was as Good or If Not Better Than Lebron. Passing Is Iqual, Rebounding I Give It To Lebron Slightly and Offense and Scoring Its Lebron All Day (Especially After Lebron has Finally Developed a Post Game: Took Him 8 Years...Way Too Long). Driving Off Fast Breaks and Finishing Them Off They are Pretty Much Equal Too.

Lebron is Obviously Better But Pippen Is Right Up There With Any Top 50 GOAT Player as an All Around Player.

[julizaver]

Creating, Ballhandling and Timing Plays He Was as Good or If Not Better Than Lebron, Passing Is Iqual, Rebounding I Give It To Lebron and Offense and Scoring Its Lebron All Day (Especially After Lebron has Finally Developed a Post Game: Took Him 8 Years...Way Too Long). Lebron is obviously Better But Pippen Is Right Up There With Any Top 50 GOAT Player as an All Around Player.

I agree with that, no one who watched Pippen play would say that Pippen is better player overal than Lebron. And in terms of passing I think Lebron have the edge.

[Round Mound]

I agree with that, no one who watched Pippen play would say that Pippen is better player overal than Lebron. And in terms of passing I think Lebron have the edge.

Passing Lebron Might Have And Edge But Timing Plays While Handling The Ball Chin To Toe Pipp Was Probably Better (Penny Hardaway Had That Same Skill).

[TheMan]

Sure, if you just ADDED him to the 2004 Detroit Pistons.. But that's literally about it.. I can't think of another championship team that he'd be the best player on.

And he certainly can't be DRAFTED to be the best player and build a championship team, at least not in the 80's or 90's era.

The 2013 Spurs? You can't tell me that '13 version of TDuncan, Manu, TP or KLeonard are better than prime Pippen. I also disagree with your opinion of not being able to build a title team with Pippen as your best player.

PG Kevin Johnson
SG Joe Dumars
SF Scottie Pippen
PF Charles Oakley
C Alonzo Mourning

Pippen is the best player in this starting 5, you don't think that's a legit title contender in the 90's?

[dubeta]

LOOL Pippen was the best player for 6 championship teams, and here you have 3ball trolling like he could never be one in todays modern era :oldlol:

[TheMan]

LOOL Pippen was the best player for 6 championship teams, and here you have 3ball trolling like he could never be one in todays modern era :oldlol:
So Pippen >>> LeBron :confusedshrug:

6/6 >>>> 2/6 :bowdown:

[scandisk_]

LOOL Pippen was the best player for 6 championship teams, and here you have 3ball trolling like he could never be one in todays modern era :oldlol:

pick your poison fool :pimp:

and quit talking to yourself 3ball :roll:

[dubeta]

So Pippen >>> LeBron :confusedshrug:

6/6 >>>> 2/6 :bowdown:


6/6 >>>> 2/6 >>>>> 1-9

Its confirmed :bowdown: :bowdown:

[3ball]

The 2013 Spurs? You can't tell me that '13 version of TDuncan, Manu, TP or KLeonard are better than prime Pippen. I also disagree with your opinion of not being able to build a title team with Pippen as your best player.

PG Kevin Johnson
SG Joe Dumars
SF Scottie Pippen
PF Charles Oakley
C Alonzo Mourning

Pippen is the best player in this starting 5, you don't think that's a legit title contender in the 90's?


The team you listed is completely fictional with 4 HOF's in the starting 5 - anyone can build a fictional champion around literally any player.

You're missing the reality that cornerstone players were of a different caliber back then - i.e. Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, MJ, Bird, Magic, Clyde, Malone, Barkley, Dr. J, Moses, etc.. Pippen just wasn't on this level.. Nowhere near tbh.

When Pippen was drafted, he simply wasn't viewed as the potential best player on a team who would build your team a champion... Anyone saying so is trying to rewrite history.. And if he hadn't cut his teeth alongside MJ, he wouldn't have become as good as he was - this is common knowledge (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZjYdgxvmOY&t=8m18s).

Now in today's game, it's a weaker era, so who knows - there simply aren't as many all-time caliber players like the ones mentioned from previous eras.. So maybe Pippen could be a cornerstone today, although I still doubt it - would he be considered the best player on the Warriors?.. I actually don't think so - more than half the time, a team will need a #1 scorer and long-distance shooter like Curry more.. If I'm a GM, I know a guy like Harden can carry my offense if necessary... Ditto for a guy like Dominique.. I can't have that same confidence with Pippen - he's simply a supplementary player

[Sharmer]

The team you listed is completely fictional with 4 HOF's in the starting 5 - anyone can build a fictional champion around literally any player.

You're missing the reality that cornerstone players were of a different caliber back then - i.e. Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, MJ, Bird, Magic, Clyde, Malone, Barkley, Dr. J, Moses, etc.. Pippen just wasn't on this level.. Nowhere near tbh.

When Pippen was drafted, he simply wasn't viewed as the potential best player on a team who would build your team a champion... Anyone saying so is trying to rewrite history.. And if he hadn't cut his teeth alongside MJ, he wouldn't have become as good as he was - this is common knowledge (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZjYdgxvmOY&t=8m18s).

Now in today's game, it's a weaker era, so who knows - there simply aren't as many all-time caliber players like the ones mentioned from previous eras.. So maybe Pippen could be a cornerstone today, although I still doubt it - would he be considered the best player on the Warriors?.. I actually don't think so - more than half the time, a team will need a #1 scorer and long-distance shooter like Curry more.. If I'm a GM, I know a guy like Harden can carry my offense if necessary... Ditto for a guy like Dominique.. I can't have that same confidence with Pippen - he's simply a supplementary player


Skip Bayless is very bias, and a big Jordan rider.

[TheMan]

The team you listed is completely fictional with 4 HOF's in the starting 5 - anyone can build a fictional champion around literally any player.

You're missing the reality that cornerstone players were of a different caliber back then - i.e. Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, MJ, Bird, Magic, Clyde, Malone, Barkley, Dr. J, Moses, etc.. Pippen just wasn't on this level.. Nowhere near tbh.

When Pippen was drafted, he simply wasn't viewed as the potential best player on a team who would build your team a champion... Anyone saying so is trying to rewrite history.. And if he hadn't cut his teeth alongside MJ, he wouldn't have become as good as he was - this is common knowledge.

Now in today's game, it's a weaker era, so who knows - there simply aren't as many all-time caliber players like the ones mentioned from previous eras.. So maybe Pippen could be a cornerstone today, although I still doubt it - would he be considered the best player on the Warriors?.. I actually don't think so - more than half the time, a team will need a #1 scorer and long-distance shooter like Curry more.. If I'm a GM, I know a guy like Harden can carry my offense if necessary... Ditto for a guy like Dominique.. I can't have that same confidence with Pippen - he's simply a supplementary player
You said to give you a team where Pippen is the best player and I did :confusedshrug:

Ok, too many HoFers? :wtf: Try this one...

PG Tim Hardaway
SG Steve Smith
SF Scottie Pippen
PF Shawn Kemp
C Brad Daugherty

I took care to not include HoFers :rolleyes: That to me looks like a legit 90s contender. My point is, Pippen could've been the best player in a title team. Would he lead them to 6 titles like MJ? No, but peak Pip was really good and if you put the right team around him, a title wouldn't be out of the question. I also like how you ignored my prime Pippen being the best player on the '13 Spurs comment :coleman:

[3ball]

you ignored my prime Pippen being the best player on the '13 Spurs comment


I'm not even sure I'd take prime Pippen over old Duncan, although maybe I would..

But you're missing the point - Pippen was never anywhere near good enough to be drafted as the cornerstone like Duncan, and be the pillar of a championship team like Duncan was all those years... Or Dirk, or Kobe, or Lebron, or future champions like Durant and Westbrook.

Pippen was never "that guy"... He was always #2, everywhere he went.. You can make up fictional teams where he would've been "that guy", but in the real world, he wasn't good enough.. Not even close.

[dubeta]

Other than the '12 and '13 Heat, replace Pippen with the best player on any championship team since 1999, and they still win regardless.

[TheMan]

Other than the '12 and '13 Heat, replace Pippen with the best player on any championship team since 1999, and they still win regardless.
I don't know about that. Take M.I.A. Bran and put Pip on the '11 Heat and they beat the Mavs though :lol Prime Wade, Pip and Bosh? C'mon son :kobe:

[TheMan]

I'm not even sure I'd take prime Pippen over old Duncan, although maybe I would..

But you're missing the point - Pippen was never anywhere near good enough to be drafted as the cornerstone like Duncan, and be the pillar of a championship team like Duncan was all those years... Or Dirk, or Kobe, or Lebron, or future champions like Durant and Westbrook.

Pippen was never "that guy"... He was always #2, everywhere he went.. You can make up fictional teams where he would've been "that guy", but in the real world, he wasn't good enough.. Not even close.
Maybe he wasn't a conerstone piece in the traditional sense but I'm arguing that he could've been the best player in an 04 Pistons type team (you even mentioned this). :confusedshrug: That's why I even included Timmy Hardaway in the team, to share some of the clutch shooting duties...and about him always being #2 wherever he went, that's not really fair. He was #2 in Chicago because he played alongside the GOAT. Everyone else in NBA history would be #2 if the entered the Bulls 3 years after MJ got there, it was clearly his team. And by the time Pip left Chicago, his best days were behind him. He did a heck of a job leading the 94 Bulls though, he was a serious MVP candidate, he led the Bulls in points, assists and rebounds. Give credit where credit is due.

[aj1987]

I know that he took it back once he saw people took him serious, and then made clarifying statements saying he "wouldn't let Lebron take him to the movies" (when asked whether he'd prefer to be led by MJ or Lebron).

Btw, Lebron's isolations stats this season provide definitive proof of how much better MJ would do in his shoes: in both the regular season and playoffs, Lebron isolated more than anything else he did - in these playoffs, he isolated on 32.7% of his possessions, which was #1 in the league.

But he only shot 33.1% on these isolations, which reduced his FG% more than any other factor and proved that MJ's far superior isolation ability would've enabled a much better overall efficiency in the same spots.

Again, Lebron's heavy use of isolations coupled with his poor FG% on those isolations lets us know MJ's far superior isolation ability would've enabled a much better efficiency in Lebron's shoes during this playoff run.

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs
.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[RightTwoCensor]

Scottie Pippen never had the privilege to control a free flowing offense like Lebron James has his entire career.

Pippen's stats didn't change much during Michael Jordan's initial retirement because of how hard Phil Jackson was committed to the Triangle, even though Pippen was clearly the best player on the Chicago Bulls at that time.

Regardless of that, Pippen was the first player in NBA history at the SF position to be the best rebounder at his position, be the best playmaker at his position, be the best defender at his position, and be the best transition player at his position. All while at the same time be able to literally play multiple positions because of his ball handling, rebounding, and defensive versatility.

So yeah, he was the first Lebron James. The big difference is the usage between the two players and the fact that one player played along side somebody clearly better than him.

[3ball]

Pippen did a heck of a job leading the 94 Bulls though, he was a serious MVP candidate, he led the Bulls in points, assists and rebounds. Give credit where credit is due.


Again, you're missing the point - MJ put Pippen in that position.. How good would the Bulls have been by the year 1994, if MJ left in 1989 instead, and the Bulls were MJ-less that entire time from 1989-1994?

Without MJ in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would never have beaten Cleveland with "the shot" or faced Detroit in ECF.. Going into the 1990 season, they would've been a lottery team instead of ECF and just 1 year away from the start of their first 3-peat.. Think about that scenario going into the 1990 season: without MJ, the Bulls are in lottery... With MJ, the Bulls are ECF and just 1 year away from the start of their 1st three-peat.. That's some Matrix blue-red pill shit.

So you can't give Pippen credit for an accomplished team, when MJ deserves the lionshare of the credit for building that team.

Keep in mind that every Bulls championship team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer of all time (career leader in PPG for RS, PO and Finals).. Therefore, it's a mathematical fact that MJ had the least scoring help of all time..

So when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers that could score a lot of points, it was because of the superior strategy, execution, teamwork and mental ability accumulated from going through wars for rings alongside MJ.
.

[3ball]

Pippen's stats didn't change much during Michael Jordan's initial retirement because of how hard Phil Jackson was committed to the Triangle, even though Pippen was clearly the best player on the Chicago Bulls at that time.


That's true - Pippen's stats (and Kukoc's) barely changed when MJ was gone.. Pippen was playing at literally 95%+ capacity alongside MJ - that's the effect of MJ's off-ball game - he got his league-leading 32 PPG primarily off-ball, which allows more flexibility on offense and fits in with a wider range of teammates.

Also, by playing off-ball and having a higher assisted rate than a low-assisted ball-dominator, MJ provided more assisting opportunities for his teammates, thus increasing THEIR playmaking capacity with his enormous scoring presence - his higly-assisted, off-ball style (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/siCbkI.gif) was a reservoir of assists for teammates to rack up off him.

[BIG FURB]

Again, you're missing the point - Pippen would never be in a position to lead the Bulls in 1994 if MJ hadn't made the Bulls champions first.. How good would the Bulls have been by the year 1994, if MJ left in 1989 instead, and the Bulls were MJ-less that entire time from 1989-1994?

Without MJ in 1989, the Bulls would never have gotten past Cleveland in the First Round where MJ hit "the shot" (where Pippen averaged 9/7).. They would've missed the playoffs altogether.. So they would've been a lottery team going into the 1990 season, instead of ECF warriors against the champion Bad Boys, and now 1 year away from ringing.

So you can't give Pippen credit for an accomplished team, when MJ deserves the lionshare of the credit for building that team.

Keep in mind that every Bulls championship team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer of all time (career leader in PPG for RS, PO and Finals).. Therefore, it's a mathematical fact that MJ had the least scoring help of all time..

So when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers that could score a lot of points, it was because of the superior strategy, execution, teamwork and mental ability accumulated from going through wars for rings alongside MJ.
.

And also due to pippen playing like an MVP candidate. How can u sit there with a straight face and not give him credit for how great a player he was for that team? Nobody would agree with the BS ya spittin right now, except maybe blathering mouthpieces like Skip Bayless. To give MJ total credit for a teams success that he was not even playing on is ridiculous. Even MJ wouldn't agree with the sh*t ya slingig

[Dragonyeuw]

Other than the '12 and '13 Heat, replace Pippen with the best player on any championship team since 1999, and they still win regardless.

Ummmm no. You're talking about replacing peak Shaq in the early 2000's, Duncan in mid 2000's, Kobe in the late 2000's, and Dirk in 2011. None of those situations would have resulted in a title if you replace those guys with Pip. Those off the top of my head are obvious, and you can look at 2006 Heat, 2008 Celtics as situations also very likely not leading to titles, because you're talking about him replacing Garnett and Wade who went off on Detroit and especially Dallas in a way Pippen could not and would not have. 2004, yeah I can see that if you replaced Prince with him, and he could anchor the perimeter defense but not be expected to carry the team offensively through a title run, as that is one of the few champions not featuring an elite scorer/superstar level player.

Pip is one of the alltime great all-arounders, and one of my personal favorites, but he did not have the elite scoring ability needed especially in the playoffs, when the team is having an off-night and you need a guy who can go off in those situations. He was a glue guy,a utility guy, a complementary scorer at his best. And theres nothing wrong with that, that kind of play still led to an alltime great career. But its pretty blasphemous to say he could replace someone like Shaq and produce the same result.

[houston]

Pippen always did have an inflated sense of how good he actually was.



yup this true

[Elosha]

I don't see Scottie as claiming he's as good as Lebron, just that Lebron plays a lot like him. Which is very true. In fact, a couple years ago, Pippen said something like Lebron is Scottie Pippen 2.0, (not an exact quote) suggesting that Lebron is an upgrade from him, which is also very true.

Really there are several players in the 90's/early 00's that Lebron played a lot like. Scottie, Grant Hill, and to a lesser degree Anfernee Hardway and Tracy McGrady. All of them, especially the former two, had the same point/forward mentality (even though Hardaway played point) and Lebron has similar, but more dominant skillsets than any of them. But it's not a stretch to say he plays like a Scottie Pippen, and honestly Pippen was better than him at a few things, such as help defense and playing off the ball, perhaps also post-ups. Also, as I said earlier, Pippen really was just as athletic as Lebron, except for strength. He could jump over the moon, off one or two feet, run end to end comparably to Lebron, and had an incredible wing span. Other guys like Grant Hill, Tracy and Hardaway may have had quicker first steps than Lebron. Lebron was better than them, but let's not act like they were not great players or that it's insulting to Lebron to be compared to them.

[3ball]

And also due to pippen playing like an MVP candidate.


Pippen's stats (and Kukoc's) barely changed when MJ was gone.. Pippen was playing at literally 95%+ capacity alongside MJ - that's the effect of MJ's off-ball game - he got his league-leading 32 PPG primarily off-ball, which allows more flexibility on offense and fits in with a wider range of teammates - teammates are able to have the ball in their hands more due to MJ's off-ball style.

Also, by playing off-ball and having a higher assisted rate than a low-assisted ball-dominator, MJ provided more assisting opportunities for his teammates, thus increasing THEIR playmaking capacity with his enormous scoring presence - his higly-assisted, off-ball style (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/siCbkI.gif) was a reservoir of assists for teammates to rack up off him.. It's just another reason why MJ's teams had a higher ceiling that Lebron's teams.





How can u sit there with a straight face and not give him credit for how great a player he was for that team?


You're not using logic - ANY good player can be added to a championship-level team and do pretty well.. But if MJ left in 1989 instead and the Bulls were MJ-less that entire time, how good would the Bulls have been by the year 1994?.. Well, let's see..

Without MJ in 1989, the Bulls miss the playoffs instead of beating Cleveland with "the shot" and cutting their teeth on the champion Bad Boys in ECF.. So without MJ going into the 1990 season, the Bulls are a lottery team, instead of being ECF veterans and 1 year away from ringing.

So you can't give Pippen credit for an accomplished team, when MJ deserves the lionshare of the credit for building that team.

Keep in mind that every Bulls championship team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer of all time (career leader in PPG for RS, PO and Finals).. Therefore, it's a mathematical fact that MJ had the least scoring help of all time..

So when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers that could score a lot of points, it was because of the superior strategy, execution, teamwork and mental ability accumulated from going through wars for rings alongside MJ.