can we all agree that MJ is the greatest playoff performer of all time?

[riseagainst]

:confusedshrug:

[KembaWalker]

Agreed good sir

[dubeta]

Hmm, the amount of playoff 30-5-5 games is the true indicator of playoff ability, anyone know how much MJ has? If MJ has the most, I'll agree he's the best playoff performer.

[scandisk_]

but weak era :confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

Hmm, the amount of playoff 30-5-5 games is the true indicator of playoff ability, anyone know how much MJ has? If MJ has the most, I'll agree he's the best playoff performer.

dawg he averages 33-6-6 in the playoffs in his career.

:lol

[riseagainst]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=career&year_min=&year_max=&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=Y&round_id=&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=trb&c2comp=gt&c2val=5&c3stat=ast&c3comp=gt&c3val=5&c4stat=fg_pct&c4comp=gt&c4val=50&order_by=pts


30-5-5 games in the playoffs with >=50%FG


MJ leads with 35.
Lebron in 2nd with 29.
Kobe: 17

:applause:

40-5-5, 50%FG

MJ:16
Lebron: 7
Kobe: 5

50-5-5, 50%FG

MJ: 2
Kobe: 1
Vince Carter: 1

60-5-5, 50%FG

MJ: 1

:bowdown:
:bowdown:

Conclusion: MJ truly is the greatest of all time.

:bowdown:
:bowdown:

[dubeta]

dawg he averages 33-6-6 in the playoffs in his career.

:lol


So he surely must have the most 30-5-5 games in playoff history then?? Does anyone know? I wanna see if he really is the GOAT playoff performer

[dubeta]

Edit: found the answer here :eek:


http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFiSN8bW8AEOL6z.jpg


He's close but not quite the GOAT playoff player :(

[dontgetchoked]

but weak era :confusedshrug:

weaker than the east has been these past... how long has it been since the east was good agan?

[Kobe_6/8]

2002-2003 Tim Duncan
2011-2012 LeBron

[TheMan]

So he surely must have the most 30-5-5 games in playoff history then?? Does anyone know? I wanna see if he really is the GOAT playoff performer
Career playoffs avg 33-6-6 >>> having the most 30-5-5 playoffs gms :confusedshrug:

Where you dropped on your head as a kid? Serious question...

[riseagainst]

Career playoffs avg 33-6-6 >>> having the most 30-5-5 playoffs gms :confusedshrug:

Where you dropped on your head as a kid? Serious question...

and that's with 3 years of past prime MJ in the playoffs too (2nd 3peat)

MJ's playoff stats since rookie year to the end of the 1st 3peat:

34.7/6.7/6.6, 50.1%FG, 35.2% 3p
29.6 PER, .258 WS/48, 58.1%TS

:bowdown:

[Phong]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFiSN8bW8AEOL6z.jpg
Playing against the garbage eastern conference...

http://nsa37.casimages.com/img/2015/06/30/150630055325382624.jpg

[riseagainst]

Playing against the garbage eastern conference...

http://nsa37.casimages.com/img/2015/06/30/150630055325382624.jpg

:roll:

Phong delivers again.

:lol
:roll:

[nightprowler10]

So he surely must have the most 30-5-5 games in playoff history then?? Does anyone know? I wanna see if he really is the GOAT playoff performer
Why 30-5-5? That's so random. May as well go with 40-5-5, oh wait that's where MJ shits on him.

[AirFederer]

Wilt.


As a sidenote, I have read that Wilt missed the pre-season in 1973 and joined the Lakers prior to the season begining,and according to Sharman he blocked 10 shots in his very first game. Unnoficially he led the league in blocked shots with 392 blocks after 70 games (5.6 bpg). Obviously was dominating presence in defense as you can see by his opponents drop in FG %.
And his rebounding and shot-blocking in the playoffs was devastating - he allegedly blocked 70 shots in his first 10 post-season games.

As great as he was in his 71-72 season, his 72-73 season might have been even better. He outplayed every starting center he faced that year, except Cowens (and he still held Cowens below his normal FG%), and a near peak Kareem (who only shot .450 against him in their six H2H's.) And he held virtually ALL of them below their normal FG%'s, and some dramatically, like KAJ, Thurmond and a prime Lanier.

I suspect that he blocked more shots in 71-72, though. I honestly believe it was around 7 bpg that year. But, even your numbers suggest that he was right there with the all-time "official" leader in a season (Eaton, 12 years later, and 5.56 bpg.)

And his post-season rebounding was just incredible in 72-73, as well. He played in 17 playoff games, and an almost unfathomable 47.1 mpg (which was BELOW his career post-season average of 47.2), and averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. Furthermore, he single-handedly crushed the Bulls trio of Awtry, Boerwinkle, and Ray, 172-95 (their total minutes were equal to Wilt's.) And Boerwinkle was one of the best TRB% centers of his era, too. In fact, Chamberlain held him to 9 rebounds in his 30 total minutes, or a 14.4 rpg/48, for a career 21rpg/48 post-season player.

Then, he wiped the floor with Thurmond in the WCF's. Keep in mind that Nate had finished second in rebounding to Wilt during the regular season (Wilt led the league at 18.6 rpg, while Nate was next at 17.1 rpg.) In their playoff series, Chamberlain outrebounded him by a 23.6 to 17.2 rpg margin.

And in the Finals, Wilt outrebounded the combo of Reed and Lucas by a 93-69 margin.

We know that Wilt was easily the greatest post-season rebounder of all-time, and he was also likely the greatest post-season shot-blocker of all-time. Your research has him with a known 570 blocks in 80 of his 160 games (and most of the rest of the other 80 games came early in his career, when he likely blocking even more), which would beats Duncan's current "official" record of 545 in 223 games.

In any case, an old Wilt, at nowhere near his peak (nor defensive peak, which occurred in the mid-to-late 60's), probably had a top-10 all-time defensive season (and only Russell and Wilt in the 60's would have had better ones.)

[Lebron23]

I thought Phong was Dead.

[HighFlyer23]

Edit: found the answer here :eek:


http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFiSN8bW8AEOL6z.jpg


He's close but not quite the GOAT playoff player :(


ESPN with their arbitrary nonsense

Prime Shaq, Hakeem, and Bird also put up some monster playoff performances

[Asukal]

Wilt.


As a sidenote, I have read that Wilt missed the pre-season in 1973 and joined the Lakers prior to the season begining,and according to Sharman he blocked 10 shots in his very first game. Unnoficially he led the league in blocked shots with 392 blocks after 70 games (5.6 bpg). Obviously was dominating presence in defense as you can see by his opponents drop in FG %.
And his rebounding and shot-blocking in the playoffs was devastating - he allegedly blocked 70 shots in his first 10 post-season games.

As great as he was in his 71-72 season, his 72-73 season might have been even better. He outplayed every starting center he faced that year, except Cowens (and he still held Cowens below his normal FG%), and a near peak Kareem (who only shot .450 against him in their six H2H's.) And he held virtually ALL of them below their normal FG%'s, and some dramatically, like KAJ, Thurmond and a prime Lanier.

I suspect that he blocked more shots in 71-72, though. I honestly believe it was around 7 bpg that year. But, even your numbers suggest that he was right there with the all-time "official" leader in a season (Eaton, 12 years later, and 5.56 bpg.)

And his post-season rebounding was just incredible in 72-73, as well. He played in 17 playoff games, and an almost unfathomable 47.1 mpg (which was BELOW his career post-season average of 47.2), and averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. Furthermore, he single-handedly crushed the Bulls trio of Awtry, Boerwinkle, and Ray, 172-95 (their total minutes were equal to Wilt's.) And Boerwinkle was one of the best TRB% centers of his era, too. In fact, Chamberlain held him to 9 rebounds in his 30 total minutes, or a 14.4 rpg/48, for a career 21rpg/48 post-season player.

Then, he wiped the floor with Thurmond in the WCF's. Keep in mind that Nate had finished second in rebounding to Wilt during the regular season (Wilt led the league at 18.6 rpg, while Nate was next at 17.1 rpg.) In their playoff series, Chamberlain outrebounded him by a 23.6 to 17.2 rpg margin.

And in the Finals, Wilt outrebounded the combo of Reed and Lucas by a 93-69 margin.

We know that Wilt was easily the greatest post-season rebounder of all-time, and he was also likely the greatest post-season shot-blocker of all-time. Your research has him with a known 570 blocks in 80 of his 160 games (and most of the rest of the other 80 games came early in his career, when he likely blocking even more), which would beats Duncan's current "official" record of 545 in 223 games.

In any case, an old Wilt, at nowhere near his peak (nor defensive peak, which occurred in the mid-to-late 60's), probably had a top-10 all-time defensive season (and only Russell and Wilt in the 60's would have had better ones.)

Hello there grandpa jlauber/LAZ. :cheers:

Sorry but Wilt's 30>22>18 disqualifies him from being in any post season GOAT discussions. "The big dipper" indeed. :oldlol:

[HighFlyer23]

Wilt.


As a sidenote, I have read that Wilt missed the pre-season in 1973 and joined the Lakers prior to the season begining,and according to Sharman he blocked 10 shots in his very first game. Unnoficially he led the league in blocked shots with 392 blocks after 70 games (5.6 bpg). Obviously was dominating presence in defense as you can see by his opponents drop in FG %.
And his rebounding and shot-blocking in the playoffs was devastating - he allegedly blocked 70 shots in his first 10 post-season games.

As great as he was in his 71-72 season, his 72-73 season might have been even better. He outplayed every starting center he faced that year, except Cowens (and he still held Cowens below his normal FG%), and a near peak Kareem (who only shot .450 against him in their six H2H's.) And he held virtually ALL of them below their normal FG%'s, and some dramatically, like KAJ, Thurmond and a prime Lanier.

I suspect that he blocked more shots in 71-72, though. I honestly believe it was around 7 bpg that year. But, even your numbers suggest that he was right there with the all-time "official" leader in a season (Eaton, 12 years later, and 5.56 bpg.)

And his post-season rebounding was just incredible in 72-73, as well. He played in 17 playoff games, and an almost unfathomable 47.1 mpg (which was BELOW his career post-season average of 47.2), and averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. Furthermore, he single-handedly crushed the Bulls trio of Awtry, Boerwinkle, and Ray, 172-95 (their total minutes were equal to Wilt's.) And Boerwinkle was one of the best TRB% centers of his era, too. In fact, Chamberlain held him to 9 rebounds in his 30 total minutes, or a 14.4 rpg/48, for a career 21rpg/48 post-season player.

Then, he wiped the floor with Thurmond in the WCF's. Keep in mind that Nate had finished second in rebounding to Wilt during the regular season (Wilt led the league at 18.6 rpg, while Nate was next at 17.1 rpg.) In their playoff series, Chamberlain outrebounded him by a 23.6 to 17.2 rpg margin.

And in the Finals, Wilt outrebounded the combo of Reed and Lucas by a 93-69 margin.

We know that Wilt was easily the greatest post-season rebounder of all-time, and he was also likely the greatest post-season shot-blocker of all-time. Your research has him with a known 570 blocks in 80 of his 160 games (and most of the rest of the other 80 games came early in his career, when he likely blocking even more), which would beats Duncan's current "official" record of 545 in 223 games.

In any case, an old Wilt, at nowhere near his peak (nor defensive peak, which occurred in the mid-to-late 60's), probably had a top-10 all-time defensive season (and only Russell and Wilt in the 60's would have had better ones.)

Nobody cares

Modern basketball started in the 80s and came into fruition in the 90s

Anything before the 80s is primitive

[Andrei89]

Playing against the garbage eastern conference...

http://nsa37.casimages.com/img/2015/06/30/150630055325382624.jpg


Here we go with the Team Comparisons when comparing Individual performances.

Do you realize this makes no sense?:lol

All those pictures prove is that Lebron is the better individual but Kobe had much betters teams.

Cheers :cheers:

[AirFederer]

Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, on 8-18 shooting, while Russell had a 25-25 game, and on 11-26 shooting.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds, on 12-28 shooting. Russell had 14 points and 26 points, on 5-11 shooting in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game, on 13-23 shooting. Russell with a 22-21 game, on 8-19 shooting, in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds, on 4-6 shooting, in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

Ether.

[TheMan]

CavsFTW hacked AirFederer's account...mods?

[KembaWalker]

These Wilt stans doing too much.

[Dragonyeuw]

Hmm, the amount of playoff 30-5-5 games is the true indicator of playoff ability, anyone know how much MJ has? If MJ has the most, I'll agree he's the best playoff performer.

Let me guess, you looked up this arbitrary stat, saw that Lebron was on top, and established that as the criteria. What about 40/50/60 point playoff games. What about 35/5/5, or 40/5/5? What about number of 50 win teams beaten? Oh wait....

[Andrei89]

Let me guess, you looked up this arbitrary stat, saw that Lebron was on top, and established that as the criteria. What about 40/50/60 point playoff games. What about 35/5/5, or 40/5/5? What about number of 50 win teams beaten? Oh wait....

The number of 50 win teams beaten does not say anything about the individual. It says more about the teams the respective player had. :applause:

[ClipperRevival]

Highest scoring avg at 33.5 (next closest is more than 4 ppg behind) and highest PER in playoff history along with 6/6 in finals? Highest single scoring game in playoff history at 63?

Who else has a legit case over him?

[Prometheus]

This is one of those times that you can say "by far" and it's legit. Michael Jordan is in a class all by himself.

It's just amazing how great he was.

[Dragonyeuw]

The number of 50 win teams beaten does not say anything about the individual. It says more about the teams the respective player had. :applause:

And it also says the level of competition faced. As lead dogs, MJ beat more 50 win teams than Lebron in the playoffs( probably played more too but can't be bothered to look it up) But with that said:

MJ: 33.4 points, 6.4 rebounds, 5.7 assists,2.1 steals, 0.9 blocks, .487%

Lebron: 28.2 points,8.8 rebounds, 6.7 assists,1.7 steals, 0.9 blocks, .473%

MJ has 5 playoff runs scoring over 35 points per game, Better overall stats, more rings, FMVPs, there's no metric where Lebron can be considered a superior playoff performer. The best thing you can say about Lebron compared to Jordan is being better at making crappy teams into very good ones. MJ is better at taking good teams and making them champions, less likely to underperform when the stakes are highest.

[Dragonyeuw]

Highest scoring avg at 33.5 (next closest is more than 4 ppg behind) and highest PER in playoff history along with 6/6 in finals? Highest single scoring game in playoff history at 63?

Who else has a legit case over him?

No-one really, I think the playoffs moreso than the regular season is where MJ separates himself from other goat candidates.

[ClipperRevival]

No-one really, I think the playoffs moreso than the regular season is where MJ separates himself from other goat candidates.

Yup. He raised his level in the playoffs.

Reg season: 30.1 ppg and 27.9 PER
Playoffs: 33.5 ppg and 28.6 PER

Crazy thing is, the reg season numbers above is the best ever and yet he was still able to improve on them. What else can you say? GOAT.

[BBallZen83]

Yes.

[SwayDizzle]

how could you possibly be the GOAT and not be the best playoff performer of all time?

[sd3035]

That's what separates him from guys who shoot 39% against single coverage and get torched on defense by role players

[Bosnian Sajo]

Here we go with the Team Comparisons when comparing Individual performances.

Do you realize this makes no sense?:lol

All those pictures prove is that Lebron is the better individual but Kobe had much betters teams.

Cheers :cheers:

Those are individual comparisons of how many 50 win teams the select player has helped eliminate from the playoffs, which means that the players with a higher number played against much more competitive teams, making it harder to advance statistically than it would be for, say, a player who played vs below-50 win teams.

Its much easier to score 30 points on the Bobcats than it is the Rockets is what I'm trying to say.

[Dr Hawk]

He is the GOAT by a considerable margin. Big margin, even

[TheMan]

Also keep in mind that he made the league his bitch in an era where the game/rules favored bigs and against GOAT bigs like KAJ, Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Zo, Parish, Shaq, Deke, young TD and KG etc.

Just imagine 88-93 MJ in todays game with more spacing, a wide open paint and rules against physically impeding an offensive player's drive towards the rim :eek:

There is no way no one can convince me he wouldn't be better today, he would take a crap on 1 on 1 coverage like LeBron faced in most of the past Finals, Iggy would have his soul taken.

[3ball]

Playoffs Thru Age 30:

MJ: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 25.4 FGA, 50.1 FG%, 29.6 PER, 0.258 WS/48
LB: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER, 0.234 WS/48


Finals Thru Age 30:

MJ: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
LB: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT



Career Playoff Averages:

MJ: 33.4 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 5.7 APG, 2.1 SPG, 25.1 FGA, 48.7 FG%, 28.6 PER, 0.255 WS/48
LB: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER, 0.234 WS/48


Career Finals Averages:

MJ: 33.6 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 6.0 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.65 BPG, 48.1% FG, 36.8% 3 PT
LB: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT


Source: basketball-reference.com



4th Quarter Scoring:


MJ 1997 Playoffs: 9.6
MJ 1998 Playoffs (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4): 9.0

MJ 1993 Finals: 10.7
MJ 1997 Finals: 10.4
MJ 1998 Finals: 10.3


Lebron 2013 Playoffs: 7.4
Lebron 2014 Playoffs: 5.8
Lebron 2015 Playoffs: 8.1


FYI: MJ 1988 Regular Season (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380784): 12.1
.

[Blue&Orange]

Here we go with the Team Comparisons when comparing Individual performances.

Do you realize this makes no sense?:lol

All those pictures prove is that Lebron is the better individual but Kobe had much betters teams.

Cheers :cheers:
You can't be this dumb, oh wait you can and you are.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Yes to MJ.
Magic Johnson

[Angel Face]

Easily and no one else comes close.

[RRR3]

LeBron will never win a ring
:roll:

[jlip]

Russell, Kareem (through age 38), and Magic are definitely on his level.

From a previous thread:


I didn't feel like starting another thread but I was just looking at Kareem statistically. Looking at his first 16 seasons...1970-1985

Reg. season
26.6ppg 12.5rpg 4.0apg 3.0bpg 56.2fg% 71.8 ft%

Playoffs
27.4ppg 12.6rpg 3.8apg 3.0bpg 54.0fg% 72.9ft%

At that time his 27.4ppg was 2nd all time for retired players behind only Jerry West.

In the reg. season he had led the league in:
Scoring- 2X
Rebounding- 1X
Fg%- 1X
Blocks- 4X

In the playoffs he had led the league in:
Scoring- 5X
Rebounding- 1X
Fg%- 1X
Blocks- 6X

[LAZERUSS]

Hello there grandpa jlauber/LAZ. :cheers:

Sorry but Wilt's 30>22>18 disqualifies him from being in any post season GOAT discussions. "The big dipper" indeed. :oldlol:

You mean the Chamberlain, who had post-season runs of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg? The Wilt who had playoff series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg? You mean the Wilt, who in his "scoring" seasons, played in 52 playoff games (30 of which were against Russell), and had 11 games of 40+ points (or a full 21% of his games)? You mean the Wilt who had FOUR playoff games of 50+ points, including the ONLY THREE in "must-win" games (one of which was against RUSSELL)? The same Wilt who also had a 45 point "must-win" Finals game?

It's interesting too, that MJ's scoring and efficiency tumbled against the "Bad Boys" from '88 thru '90. Same with Shaq's scoring and efficiency against the Robinson-led Spurs from '99 thru '02. And Kareem's numbers dropped off the cliff when he faced Thurmond and Wilt in his five post-season H2H's against them. How come?

And yet Chamberlain faced RUSSELL's Celtics EIGHT TIMES, and in seven of them, in either in his first, or second round. Not only that, but he faced THURMOND in THREE more playoff series. In fact, a PRIME Chamberlain (before his leg injury) played in 98 playoff games...and 61 of them were against Russell and Thurmond (just ask Kareem about Nate...in his three playoff series against him, a PEAK Kareem shot .486, .428, and .405 against him.)

Oh, and how did Wilt fare against Russell in their post-season H2H's? He had playoff series against him of 28.0 ppg, 29.2 ppg, 30.1 ppg, 30.5 ppg, and 33.6 ppg...and four of those were on between .500 to .555 shooting...in leagues that shot about .420 in the same post-season span.

And of course, Chamberlain slaughtered both Russell, and his eight-time defending champions in their '67 EDF's, in a series in which Wilt carpet-bombed Russell in every statistical catgory (outscoring him, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outassisting him, 10.0 apg to 6.0 apg; outblocking him, 29-8; outrebounding him, 32.0 rpg to 23.4 rpg; and outshooting him from the field by a .556 to .358 margin.

How about an aging Wilt, and only a year removed from major knee surgery, going up against a PEAK Kareem in their '71 WCF's? Wilt matched him stat-for-stat, but even that was deceptive. Kareem outplayed Wilt in ONE of their FIVE H2H's, (recaps gave Wilt at LEAST a 3-1-1 margin.) Here is the last one:

[QUOTE]Game 5 April 18, 1971

Bucks Await Championship Series
Wilt Wins 7-Foot Battle But Loses 7-Game Set
By BOB GREENE
Associated Press Sports Writer

MILWAUKEE

[LAZERUSS]

Continued...

Russell is the post-season career leading rebounder at 24.9 rpg, and Wilt is second at 24.5 rpg (BTW, Wilt ELEVATED his rebounding in the post-season.) BUT, when Russell retired after his '69 season, he was WAY behind Wilt, who was at 26.3 rpg at the time. Wilt's numbers declined slightly in his last four seasons, and thereby allowed Russell to edge him out.

HOWEVER, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of their EIGHT post-season H2H series, and some by HUGE margins (by as much as 5 rpg, 6 rpg, and even...get this... NINE rpg!)

Not only that, but Wilt outshot Russell from the field in their post-season H2H's by a .513 to .417 margin (and overall, in their 143 career H2H's by a .497 to .382 margin!) Russell and Wilt met in the playoffs 49 times, and Chamberlain held a 44-5 scoring margin. When Russell outscored Wilt it was by the narrowest of margins. When Chamberlain oustcored Russell, there were games in which the margins were 50-22, 42-9, 46-18, 33-11, 32-9, and 42-19.

How about against Thurmond? In their three post-season H2H series, Chamberlain outrebounded Nate in all three, and by margins of 2 rpg, 4 rpg, and even 7 rpg! And, he outshot Nate from the floor by margins of .500 to .392, .560 to .343, and .611 to .373. Just pure domination...of the same center who outplayed a peak Kareem in their '72 playoff H2H (outscoring KAJ, 25.0 ppg to 22.8 ppg, and outshooting him by a .437 to .405 margin.)

Those idiots that claim that Wilt went from 30-22-18 in the post-season, obviously didn't take context into account. In Wilt's "scoring" seasons, his ppg dropped from 39.8 ppg down to 32.8 ppg, BUT, he missed the post-season in his '63 season, when he averaged 44.8 ppg. Furthermore, he faced RUSSELL in 30 of his 52 playoff games in that period. BTW, in his FIVE post-season H2H series against Russell in his "scoring" seasons, he ELEVATED his scoring against Russell, from his regular season H2H's against him, in TWO of them, and was a wash in one more (28.3 ppg "down" to 28.0 ppg in their post-season H2H)...or 50% of the time.

And, he ELEVATED his rebounding AND FG% against Russell, from his regular season H2H's, in their post-season H2H's...and by a significant margin.

Continued...

[nzahir]

Yes, then lebron.

[Beastmode88]

Yes, then lebron.

2011 finals. :roll:

[nzahir]

2011 finals. :roll:
the only 1 blemish on his entire career.
18 7 and 7, he wasnt too inefficient. But obviously not his standards. They trapped him or played a strongside zone like the cavs vs curry and made him pass it up to others(who couldnt hit shots, such as bibby); but the warriors had shot makers

[LAZERUSS]

Continued...

Wilt played in 160 post-season games, and he faced a HOF starting center in 104 of them (Lucas, as a center in 5, Bellamy in 10, Kareem in 11, Reed in 12, Thurmond in 17, and Russell in 49.) He also faced an All-star starting center in 23 more post-season games (Kerr in 11 and Beaty in 12), for a total of 127 of his 160 post-season games. Think about that...he was facing either a very good, or even great, center in nearly 80% of his post-season H2H's.

And, overall, he slaughtered them in terms of scoring, rebounding, passing, and FG% efficiency. Just DOMINATED them.

I get a kick out of those that claim Wilt was "2/6", or "only" won TWO rings. Well, Chamberlain faced the greatest dynasty in NBA history in EIGHT of his 13 post-seasons (and usually in either in the first or second round.) He also faced the HOF-laden Knicks in FOUR of those post-seasons. On top of that, he faced a PEAK Kareem and his Bucks in TWO more. The REALITY was, Wilt was "losing" to the Celtics SEVEN times (and FOUR of them were game SEVEN's decided by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.) He "lost" to the HOF-laden Knicks in '70 and '73 (between FOUR to SIX HOFers). And he "lost" to Kareem's '71 Bucks, who went 66-16. BTW, he "beat" Russell's eight-time defending 60-21 Celtics (nearly SWEPT them); beat the HOF laden Knicks in '68 and '72; and beat KAJ's defending champion, and 63-19 Bucks in '72.

Let's compare those "losses" with Bird, Kareem, MJ, andHakeem shall we?


Bird:

'80: Beaten badly by Dr. J, 4-1 in the '80 ECF's.
'82: Beaten by Dr. J in the '80 ECF's.
'83: Downright embarrassing. SWEPT by Marques Johnson.
'85: Easily whipped by Worthy in Finals.
'87: Blown apart by Worthy in the Finals.
'88: Shelled by Dantley in the '88 ECF's (shot .351 BTW.)
'90: Outplayed by Johnny Newman in first round loss
'91: Taken to task by Mark Aguirre.
'92: Someone by the name of Larry Sanders easily beats Bird.

BTW, as a sidenote, Bird only went 1-2 against the Bad Boys, and 1-2 against the Lakers (and in reality, it should have been 0-3.)


Kareem:

'70: Shelled by Reed in the ECF's.
'72: Dominated by WILT in the WCF's.
'73: Completely shutdown by Thurmond in the first round.
'74: Beaten by a 6-9 white red-head (and Cowens did outplay him in game 7)
'75: Kareem plays so poorly his team doesn't make the playoffs.
'76: Again, this career loser single-handedly keeps his team from making the playoffs.
'77: SWEPT by Walton in WCF's.
'78: Routed by Webster in the first round.
'79: Routed by Sikma in the second round.
'81: Single-handedly takes his 54-28 Lakers down the drain against Moses' 40-42 Rockets (in a series in which Moses just crushed him.)
'83: Meets Moses again...but this time Moses has even more help. A SWEEPING loss, all while getting annihilated by Moses.
'84: Beaten by Parish.
'86: Beaten badly by Sampson.
'89: Laimbeer almost shuts him out.

Furthermore, KAJ won his only ring in the '70's with the easiest ride to a title in NBA history (and was outplayed by Wilt in the '71 WCF's.) And he doesn't even play in the clinching road win in '80 (as Magic leads the Lakers to the title.) He is then a second banana from '82 thru '85. From '86 thru '87, he is the third wheel. And in his last title, his Lakers win DESPITE his awful play.


Jordan:

'85: Beaten by Ricky Pierce.
'86: Swept by Danny Ainge.
'87: Again, swept by Ainge.
'88: Blown away by Dumars.
'89: Easily beaten by Dumars.
'90: Again...beaten by Dumars.
'91: Finally beats Dumars.
'94: Knows he can't win, and quits. team goes 55-27 without and loses a close game seven to the 56-26 Knicks, who go on to lose a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets.
'95: Comes back but is badly beaten by Nick Anderson.

Oh, and how about Hakeem? While Wilt was "losing" to Russell in nine seasons...

'85: Blown out in the first round by Eaton
'86: Beaten by Parish
'87: Easily beaten in the second round by Alton Lister.
'88: SWEPT in first round by James Donaldson
'89: Beaten in the first round by Olden Polynice
'90: Beaten in the first round by Mychal Thompson (
'91: SWEPT in the first round by Divac.
'92: Single-handedly prevents his team from even making the playoffs.
'93: Beaten by Michael Cage
'96: SWEPT in the second round by Sam Perkins.
'97: Beaten by Greg Ostertag in the WCF's.
'98: Beaten by Greg Foster in the first round.
'99: Absolutely slaughtered by Shaq in the first round.
'00: Single-handedly keeps his team from making the playoffs.
'01: See above.
'02: Wiped out by Ben Wallace in the first round.


Furthermore...

MJ: LOST in NINE seasons.
Bird: LOST in TEN seasons.
Duncan: LOST in 13 seasons.
Kobe: LOST in 13 seasons.
Oscar: LOST in 13 seasons.
West: LOST in 13 seasons.
Baylor: LOST in 13 seasons.
Kareem: LOST in 14 seasons
Shaq: LOST in 15 seasons.
Hakeem: LOST in 16 seasons.

What a bunch of pathetic losers.


Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain "the choker" in his post-season career.

In his 23 "Must win" playoff games...


Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

BTW, Wilt ranks THIRD all-time in "must-win" playoff scoring at 31.1 ppg, which is just behind Lebron's 31.9 ppg and MJ's 31.3 ppg.



And let's expand that out to not only "must-win" playoff games, but series clinching games, as well.


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)



THAT was Wilt "the Choker."

Continued...

[sd3035]

Wilt was scrawny and gay, that's probably why he choked so bad in the post season



interesting

[Poochymama]

Wilt.


As a sidenote, I have read that Wilt missed the pre-season in 1973 and joined the Lakers prior to the season begining,and according to Sharman he blocked 10 shots in his very first game. Unnoficially he led the league in blocked shots with 392 blocks after 70 games (5.6 bpg). Obviously was dominating presence in defense as you can see by his opponents drop in FG %.
And his rebounding and shot-blocking in the playoffs was devastating - he allegedly blocked 70 shots in his first 10 post-season games.

As great as he was in his 71-72 season, his 72-73 season might have been even better. He outplayed every starting center he faced that year, except Cowens (and he still held Cowens below his normal FG%), and a near peak Kareem (who only shot .450 against him in their six H2H's.) And he held virtually ALL of them below their normal FG%'s, and some dramatically, like KAJ, Thurmond and a prime Lanier.

I suspect that he blocked more shots in 71-72, though. I honestly believe it was around 7 bpg that year. But, even your numbers suggest that he was right there with the all-time "official" leader in a season (Eaton, 12 years later, and 5.56 bpg.)

And his post-season rebounding was just incredible in 72-73, as well. He played in 17 playoff games, and an almost unfathomable 47.1 mpg (which was BELOW his career post-season average of 47.2), and averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg. Furthermore, he single-handedly crushed the Bulls trio of Awtry, Boerwinkle, and Ray, 172-95 (their total minutes were equal to Wilt's.) And Boerwinkle was one of the best TRB% centers of his era, too. In fact, Chamberlain held him to 9 rebounds in his 30 total minutes, or a 14.4 rpg/48, for a career 21rpg/48 post-season player.

Then, he wiped the floor with Thurmond in the WCF's. Keep in mind that Nate had finished second in rebounding to Wilt during the regular season (Wilt led the league at 18.6 rpg, while Nate was next at 17.1 rpg.) In their playoff series, Chamberlain outrebounded him by a 23.6 to 17.2 rpg margin.

And in the Finals, Wilt outrebounded the combo of Reed and Lucas by a 93-69 margin.

We know that Wilt was easily the greatest post-season rebounder of all-time, and he was also likely the greatest post-season shot-blocker of all-time. Your research has him with a known 570 blocks in 80 of his 160 games (and most of the rest of the other 80 games came early in his career, when he likely blocking even more), which would beats Duncan's current "official" record of 545 in 223 games.

In any case, an old Wilt, at nowhere near his peak (nor defensive peak, which occurred in the mid-to-late 60's), probably had a top-10 all-time defensive season (and only Russell and Wilt in the 60's would have had better ones.)

Hello Laz/Jlauber

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

How about this comparison between KAJ and Wilt:


I'll take the clutch Chamberlain.

Must-Win Post-Season Games...

Kareem:

12-12 W-L
25.5 ppg
12.0 rpg
.521 FG% ( in post-seasons that I would guess shot about an eFG% of .470 on average.)


Wilt:

12-11 W-L
31.1 ppg
26.4 rpg
.540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .435 on average.)


And before some idiot claims that Kareem played half of his post-season career past his prime (and with Magic carrying him)

A PRIME Kareem from 69-70 thru 80-81:

6-8 W-L
29.8 ppg
15.7 rpg
.529 FG% (in leagues that shot around .460+)


BUT, two can play that game...

A PRIME "Scoring Wilt from 59-60 thru 65-66:

6-6 W-L (3-5 against Russell and his Dynasty, whom he shelled)
37.3 ppg
27.6 rpg
.521 FG% (in a post-seasons that I KNOW shot .417 overall.)


Kareem was a great player.

Wilt was significantly greater.


Of course, had Wilt had a prime Magic for TEN SEASONS, there would have been no question that he would have won at LEAST FIVE more rings, if not TEN.



I have read those who claim that Hakeem "elevated" his post-season numbers, while Chamberlain's "declined."

I have already posted Hakeem's "losses" against his opposing centers in the post-season, but think about this...Hakeem took his teams down in flames in EIGHT FIRST ROUND playoff series (and most of those were blowout losses.)

Now, had Chamberlain had the "good fortune" to have "lost" EIGHT TIMES in the First Round...and his post-season numbers might have looked significantly better, as well.


As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .617 in a post-season at .424, to go along with 27 rpg, and 11 apg.!))

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

Now, how about the Russell-Wilt H2H's...


59-60 Regular season ... 11 H2H games:

Russell: 19.8 ppg, 23.7 rpg, .393 eFG%
Wilt: 39.1 ppg, 29.7 rpg, .465 eFG%, and 1.3 apg.


59-60 EDF's... 6 H2H's:

Russell: 20.7 ppg, 27.0 rpg, .446 eFG%, and 2.8 apg.
Wilt: 30.5 ppg, 27.5 rpg, .500 eFG%, and 2.0 apg.


60-61... 13 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 18.8 ppg, 25.4 ppg, .398 eFG%, and 3.6 apg.
Wilt: 36.3 ppg, 30.9 rpg, .493 eFG%, and 1.8 apg.


61-62...10 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 18.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, .383 eFG%, and 4.4 apg.
Wilt: 39.7 ppg, 28.8 rpg, .468 eFG%, and 2.1 apg.

61-62... 7 games of EDF's:

Russell: 22.0 ppg, 25.9 rpg, .399 eFG%, and 4.6 apg.
Wilt: 33.6 ppg, 26.9 rpg, .468 eFG%, and 2.9 apg.


62-63...9 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 15.3 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .366 eFG% (3 known games)
Wilt: 38.1 ppg, 28.9 rpg, .497 eFG% (6 known games.)


63-64...8 Regular season H2H's:

Russell: 14.4 ppg, 25.4 rpg, 5.4 apg (5 known), .367 FG% (6 known)
Wilt: 29.1 ppg, 26.9 rpg, 3.7 apg (7 known), .530 FG%

63-64 Finals... 5 H2H's:

Russell: 11.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, 6.3 apg, .386 FG%
Wilt: 29.2 ppg, 27.6 rpg, 2.4 apg, .517 FG%


64-65...11 Regular season H2H's:

Russell: 12.6 ppg, 22.2 rpg, 4.6 apg, .281 FG% (10 known)
Wilt: 25.4 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, .473 FG%

64-65...7 EDF's H2H's:

Russell: 15.6 ppg, 25.1 rpg, 6.7 apg, .447 FG%
Wilt: 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, .555 FG%


65-66... 9 Regular season H2H's:

Russell: 9.4 ppg, 21.2 rpg, 4.9 apg, .301 FG%
Wilt: 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, 4.2 apg, .473 FG%

65-66...5 EDF's H2H's:

Russell: 14.0 ppg, 26.3 rpg, 6.3 apg (3 known), .423 FG% (2 known)
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, 3.2 apg, .509 FG%

But let's break the post-season numbers down even more shall?

'60: Chamberlain averaged 30.5 on a FG% that was 10% OVER the post-season league average.

'62: Chamberlain averaged 33.6 ppg on a FG% that was 5% OVER the post-season league average.

'64: Wilt averaged 29.2 ppg on a FG% that was 10% OVER the post-season league average.

'65: Wilt averaged 30.1 ppg on a FG% that was 13% OVER the post-season league average.

'66: Wilt averaged 28.0 ppg on a FG% that was 7% OVER the post-season league.

And I'll throw in Wilt's '67 EDF's, as well: 21.6 ppg on a FG% that was 13% OVER the post-season league average.


Meanwhile, Russell's numbers against Wilt:

'60: 20.7 ppg on a FG% that was 5% OVER the post-season league average.

'62: 22.0 ppg on a FG% that was 1% UNDER the post-season league average.

'64: 11.2 ppg on a FG% that was 3% UNDER the post-season league average.

'65: 15.6 ppg on a FG% that was 2% OVER the post-season league average.

'66: 14.0 ppg on a FG% that was 2% UNDER the post-season league average.

and '67: 10.2 ppg on a FG% that was 7% UNDER the post-season league average.


The REALITY was, Russell hardly limited Wilt AT ALL in their post-season H2H's, and Chamberlain just CRUSHED Russell in scoring, rebounding, and FG% in ALL of them.

A "scoring" Wilt was outscoring a PRIME Russell by a 30 ppg to 17 ppg average; outrebounding Russell by a 29 rpg to 26 rpg; and outshooting Russell by a 50% to 42% margin....in their PLAYOFF H2H's. Add in their '67 EDF's, and Wilt's margins grow to 29 ppg to 16 ppg; 30 rpg to 25 rpg; and 51% to 40%.

Chamberlain DOMINATED Russell...period.





Continued...

[Poochymama]

CavsFTW hacked AirFederer's account...mods?

AirFederer/Lazeruss/Jlauber/Audio One are all the same person. He takes on a different persona in his AirFederer/Audio One accounts and tries to act a little more dumb but it's unmistakable.

[LAZERUSS]

Finally... the great "what-if"...


Psileas actually pointed this fact out long ago, but it is certainly worth repeating...

had Wilt been fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers in the post-season, from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own many playoff (or perhaps Finals) scoring records. And we are not talking about one or two "small samples" either, but rather, his entire H2H play against LA (and Minny) from '60 thru '68...and in seasons of between 7 to 12 H2H games.

Keep in mind that Russell WAS fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers FIVE times in the post-season in that span (actually six, but in the last one, he faced Wilt, and as expected, did absolutely nothing offensively), and it was against LA in which he elevated his playoff scoring and FG%. In fact, remove the Lakers from his post-seasons, and his offensive production would have dropped considerably.

Here were Russell's numbers against LA in those five series:

'62:

Russell averaged 18.9 ppg on a .457 FG% in his regular season against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 22.9 ppg on a .543 FG%. Which included a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds.

BTW, against Wilt in the '62 EDF's: 22.0 ppg on a .399 FG%


'63:

Russell averaged 16.8 ppg on a .432 FG% in his regular season.

Against LA in the Finals: 20 ppg on a .467 FG%


'65:

Russell averaged 14.1 ppg on a .438 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 17.8 ppg on a .702 FG% (yes, .702.)

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 15.6 ppg on a .447 FG%


'66:

Russell averaged 12.9 ppg on a .415 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 23.6 ppg on a .538 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 14.0 ppg on a .423 FG%


'68:

Russell averaged 12.5 ppg on a .425 FG% against the NBA

Against LA in the Finals: 17.3 ppg on a .430 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 13.7 ppg on a .440 FG%


Oh, and here were Russell's stats in the '69 Finals against Wilt:

Regular season against the NBA: 9.9 ppg on a .433 FG%

Against Wilt in the Finals: 9.0 ppg on a .397 FG%


Again, had Wilt faced the Lakers in any of his nine seasons in the league from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own at least some, (if not a vast majority), playoff and perhaps Finals, scoring records (and perhaps FG% records, as well, since Russell shot .702 against LA in '65.)

And once again, in Wilt's regular seasons, he was facing LA between 7 to 12 games in each season, with an average of about 10.

Also keep in mind that the Lakers were in the Western Conference, and Wilt only had two seasons in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68, and in one of those, his team was so bad, that he didn't make the playoffs, despite a 44.8 ppg season on .528 shooting.


Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.


'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.


'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)


'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.


'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.


'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.


'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.


'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.


'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.


Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.






The bottom line in this discussion of who is the greatest playoff performer...

Certainly MJ has a solid argument, if not a clear-cut one...

BUT, for anyone to dismiss Wilt's post-season performances is bordring on pure idiocy. In fact, he was a DOMINANT playoff force, and arguably the greatest force at BOTH ends in post-season HISTORY.

[LAZERUSS]

AirFederer/Lazeruss/Jlauber/Audio One are all the same person. He takes on a different persona in his AirFederer/Audio One accounts and tries to act a little more dumb but it's unmistakable.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but AirFederer, Audio (as well Houston) are NOT me. As for Jlauber...when was the last time you saw him post here?

LAZERUSS is LAZERUSS.

BTW, I have to commend AirFederer for his fine work. Brilliant would be the best description.

[scandisk_]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but AirFederer, Audio (as well Houston) are NOT me. As for Jlauber...when was the last time you saw him post here?

LAZERUSS is LAZERUSS.

BTW, I have to commend AirFederer for his fine work. Brilliant would be the best description.

whatever milwad :oldlol:

you ain't fooling anyone here brah

[Asukal]

Hahahaha hilarious! Jlauber easily catches feelings over his lover. :oldlol: :lol

I swear you are the most pathetic stan I have ever seen over the internet. Apart from understanding nothing but stats, you try to pass yourself as some kind of knowledgeable basketball historian. :whatever:

Seriously what the hell is your relationship with Wilt? Were you his gay lover or something? Go see visit a psychiatrist, you need serious help. :oldlol: :roll: :lol

[Poochymama]

Hahahaha hilarious! Jlauber easily catches feelings over his lover. :oldlol: :lol

I swear you are the most pathetic stan I have ever seen over the internet. Apart from understanding nothing but stats, you try to pass yourself as some kind of knowledgeable basketball historian. :whatever:

Seriously what the hell is your relationship with Wilt? Were you his gay lover or something? Go see visit a psychiatrist, you need serious help. :oldlol: :roll: :lol

Seriously, we all know Wilt put up the best stats(in the regular season). Repeatly spamming us with info we already know isn't going to change our minds. Impact goes far beyond stats, that's something he is incapable of grasping.

[LAZERUSS]

Seriously, we all know Wilt put up the best stats(in the regular season). Repeatly spamming us with info we already know isn't going to change our minds. Impact goes far beyond stats, that's something he is incapable of grasping.

Jon Wooden said it best...had Russell and Wilt swapped rosters (and coaches), and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

[Asukal]

Jon Wooden said it best...had Russell and Wilt swapped rosters (and coaches), and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

John Wooden has what you call an opinion and everybody has one. :whatever:

They are two completely different players, Russ and Wilt aren't interchangeable. Russ was a leader who didn't care about stats but instead did what was necessary to help his team win. This is why he has 11 rings to Wilt's 2. Wilt on the other hand was no leader, he loved stats too much, and it was always Wilt first before his team. His play style didn't help his team mates develop. :rolleyes:

Here's an opinion for you: If russ played with west and baylor he'd win every year they are together. :lol

[3ball]

Bob Cousy says MJ's the best he's ever seen - he sounds quite convincing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtKnm-Sf7t8&t=3m33s

[LAZERUSS]

John Wooden has what you call an opinion and everybody has one. :whatever:

They are two completely different players, Russ and Wilt aren't interchangeable. Russ was a leader who didn't care about stats but instead did what was necessary to help his team win. This is why he has 11 rings to Wilt's 2. Wilt on the other hand was no leader, he loved stats too much, and it was always Wilt first before his team. His play style didn't help his team mates develop. :rolleyes:

Here's an opinion for you: If russ played with west and baylor he'd win every year they are together. :lol

Actually we saw what happened when Chamberlain had an equal roster, and that was healthy,...in the '67 EDF's.

A near sweep of the eight-time defending (and 60-21) Celtics, and in a series, as always, that Chamberlain just carpet-bombed Russell.

BTW, Wilt and Baylor played exactly ONE season in which both were healthy. Not only that, but Baylor was on his last legs, and performed putridly in that post-season.

[Poochymama]

Jon Wooden said it best...had Russell and Wilt swapped rosters (and coaches), and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

Nah, both guys would have done worse. Wilt would win 60-65 and Russell would win 66-69. Wilt had a better roster from 66-69 and still only beat Russell 1 in 4 times.

Russell would have won every year with the Lakers under the same circumstances though, that's for sure.

[LAZERUSS]

Bob Cousy says MJ's the best he's ever seen - he sounds quite convincing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtKnm-Sf7t8&t=3m33s

We can both pull quotes until the cows come home.

Needless top say, BOTH MJ and Chamberlain were the TWO most dominant players in NBA history.


More quotes from Wilt's peers...

http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html

Jerry West in 1999:

Quote:
"He was the most unbelievable center to ever play the game in terms of domination and intimidation. There's no one that's ever played the game better than Wilt Chamberlain. This was a man for all ages."

or this ...from Bill Russell

Quote:
"Nobody seems to appreciate what an incredible player Wilt was," Russell said at 1997 All-Star Game when the league named and honored its 50 greatest players. "He was the best player of all time because he dominated the floor like nobody else ever could. To be that big and that athletic was special."

or this from Kareem...

Quote:
"Chamberlain played the game the same way Russell did, except he scored so much more. But his teams had to get more points from him. He'd score 45 points and his teams would still lose."

and also from Kareem...

Quote:
"Wilt had to fight people's dissatisfaction that his teams didn't win. There he was, this great dominating player, and his teams didn't win championships. Well, Wilt wasn't playing for the right team. As an individual, he was in a class by himself, but his teammates--they were OK, but not the supporting cast Russell had."


and still more from Kareem...

Quote:
"You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams."

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in an open letter to Scottie Pippen after Scottie Pippen referred to Michael Jordan and Lebron James as the greatest scorer and greatest player, respectively

more from Kareem


Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.


and how about Larry Bird...

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188550


Quote:
When the topic of all-time greatest player was once raised, none other than the legendary Larry Bird didn't hesitate.


"Open up the record book and it will be obvious who the greatest is," he said.


Oscar:


As Oscar Robertson put it in the Philadelphia Daily News when asked whether Chamberlain was the best ever, "The [Record] books don't lie."


I could go on...but you get the point...

[LAZERUSS]

Nah, both guys would have done worse. Wilt would win 60-65 and Russell would win 66-69. Wilt had a better roster from 66-69 and still only beat Russell 1 in 4 times.

Russell would have won every year with the Lakers under the same circumstances though, that's for sure.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

Wilt had better rosters in '67 and '68 ONLY.

His '66 team edged out Boston by one game...but of course, if you had done any research, you would have found out that the Celtic starters missed a TON of games that year.

The '69 Lakers only had TWO players that were better than Boston's. After 1-2, the Celtics had an edge from 3-8. Baylor SHOULD have been a plus, but instead he was just awful in that Finals. As it was, and with Wilt benched in the last five minutes, Boston edged LA in game seven, by two points. BTW, had Johnny Egan not lost the ball in the waning seconds of game four...which led to a miraculous game winner by Sam Jones, the Lakers would have romped to a 4-1 series win.


Now, in the '68 regular season, Wilt's Sixers, with Wilt, of course, were superior. BUT, in the EDF's, they had already lost HOFer Billy Cunningham before the series even started. And STILL, the Sixers took a 3-1 series lead. However, in game five, they lost TWO more starters, Luke Jackson, and Wali Jones to injuries (and both were worthless the rest of the way), and on top of all of that, Wilt himself was nursing a variety of injuries and was NOTICEABLY limping throughout that series. With all of that, Boston eked out a game seven win by a 100-96 margin. CLEARLY, a healthy Sixer team repeats this...

In the '67 EDF's, the 68-13 Sixers DESTROYED the 60-21 Celtics, 4-1, and they were four points away from a sweep in game four. In the clinching game five, the Sixers rallied from an early 17 point deficit to take a 27 point lead late, en route to a 140-116 win (a staggering 44 point turnaround in about three quarters.)

I would only say that Wilt COULD have won in '69. But again, Baylor was just putrid, and even worse, their incompetent head coach, VBK, COST them that series.

[Angel Face]

We can both pull quotes until the cows come home.

Needless top say, BOTH MJ and Chamberlain were the TWO most dominant players in NBA history.

Please stop, we're talking about playoffs here and Wilt is the godfather of choking. Yes he had those insane regular season stats, but come playoffs time, he's nowhere near as dominant as he is in the regular season. He has the highest regular season to playoffs stat drop. No disrespect but stats say that he is the ultimate choker.

[AirFederer]

Sorry, I was wrong yesterday.

It`s MJ and it isn`t close :cheers:

[AirFederer]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but AirFederer, Audio (as well Houston) are NOT me. As for Jlauber...when was the last time you saw him post here?

LAZERUSS is LAZERUSS.

BTW, I have to commend AirFederer for his fine work. Brilliant would be the best description.
:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

John Wooden has what you call an opinion and everybody has one. :whatever:

They are two completely different players, Russ and Wilt aren't interchangeable. Russ was a leader who didn't care about stats but instead did what was necessary to help his team win. This is why he has 11 rings to Wilt's 2. Wilt on the other hand was no leader, he loved stats too much, and it was always Wilt first before his team. His play style didn't help his team mates develop. :rolleyes:

Here's an opinion for you: If russ played with west and baylor he'd win every year they are together. :lol

Let's examine that a little further, shall we?

Chamberlain played with West, in THREE FULL seasons and post-seasons. In 68-69, in 71-72, and in 72-73. That's IT. Yes, Chamberlain did play in his '70 post-season...albeit, it was four MONTHS after major knee surgery (and BTW, he was the Lakers BEST post-season player, and especially Finals player, despite that fact.)

West missed the entire '71 post-season (as did Baylor.) And how about his '72 playoff performance? A .376 FG%, including a .325 FG% in the Finals. And he was nearly as bad in his '73 playoffs, as well...shooting .449 in his playoffs, and .442 in the Finals...including a 5-17 performance in the clinching game five loss.

Baylor? :roll: :roll: :roll:

He played with Wilt in exactly ONE FULL SEASON. And in that ONE full season, he had a miserable post-season, shooting a team-low .385 from the field, including four games in the Finals in which he shot 2-14, 4-18, 4-13, and a game seven of 8-22.

He did play with a Wilt, who once again, was nowhere near 100% in the '70 post-season, and in it, Baylor put up nice "3rd wheel" numbers, but nothing spectacular.

That was IT for Baylor. In his 70-71 season, he played TWO games, and missed the playoffs, and in his 71-72 season, he played nine games, and was basically cut. Not coincidentally, the Lakers immediately went on a 33 game winning streak right after he "retired."

So, Russell, with the same deck of cards that Wilt was dealt with, would have done no better, and likely, much worse.

[LAZERUSS]

Please stop, we're talking about playoffs here and Wilt is the godfather of choking. Yes he had those insane regular season stats, but come playoffs time, he's nowhere near as dominant as he is in the regular season. He has the highest regular season to playoffs stat drop. No disrespect but stats say that he is the ultimate choker.

Chamberlain "the Choker"...


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

[Quickening]

Both MJ and Wilt played in weak eras, only difference is that MJ had a stacked cast.

If you look at Wilts numbers, he is far better, not really debatable.