If MJ had retired in 1989 instead of 1994

[3ball]

Without MJ in 1989, the Bulls miss the playoffs instead of beating Cleveland with "the shot" and cutting their teeth on the champion Bad Boys in ECF.

Accordingly, going into the 1990 season, the Bulls would've been a lottery team instead of ECF veterans and 1 year away from ringing.. That's the difference MJ made at that specific time of the team's development - lottery vs. ECF and 1 year away.

Of course, if MJ had left in 1989, he'd be a team-hopping beta just like Lebron... But hey, everyone would be able to say "look how bad the team is without him"... I guess Lebron's smart - he knows it's all about timing if you want a record of teams collapsing without you.. :facepalm

[The_Pharcyde]

probably true, but the agenda you are pushing is obvious enough that people arent gonna listen to you no matter how many facts you have...

jordan is the goat man, no need to overly push that statement into every other great players career

just gives the impression that mj stans are insecure

[jlip]

Why is OP not banned already?

[dubeta]

Those Bulls teams won the same amount of games with or without MJ

1993- 57 wins

MJ leaves

1994- 55 wins




Jordan was a good piece for the Bulls to have, but ultimately insignificant

[SouBeachTalents]

I wonder how the Cavs would have done if LeBron had left in '05 instead of 2010

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/fq3FHEN.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/9VPzJD.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2015/f2jwKx.gif

http://i.imgur.com/0l1UUv8.gif

[Dragonyeuw]

You talked about this in the Scottie/Lebron thread, out of interest why are you referring to 1989?

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron never took a lottery team to the ECF, and then got over the hump WITH THAT SAME TEAM to win a championship.

Building a team into a champion and getting them over that hump requires an entirely different dimension of perseverance and determination that Lebron has proven he doesn't have..

The empirical evidence speaks for itself - the statement in the first paragraph above is 100%, pure fact.
Seems secure.....:rolleyes:
It requires the type perseverance and determination you exhibit in each and every irrelevant post you make. Why not take every top 10 guy off their team at a random, arbitrary moment and see what they accomplish. I'm sure it would all be similar, gag on my friend.

[Hey Yo]

Without MJ in 1989, the Bulls miss the playoffs instead of beating Cleveland with "the shot" and cutting their teeth on the champion Bad Boys in ECF.

Accordingly, going into the 1990 season, the Bulls would've been a lottery team instead of ECF veterans and 1 year away from ringing.. That's the difference MJ made at that specific time of the team's development - lottery vs. ECF and 1 year away.

Of course, if MJ had left in 1989, he'd be a team-hopping beta just like Lebron... But hey, everyone would be able to say "look how bad the team is without him"... I guess Lebron's smart - he knows it's all about timing if you want a record of teams collapsing without you.. :facepalm
How could he have done that considering he signed an 8yr deal (like a dumbass) the season prior?

[sdot_thadon]

How could he have done that considering he signed an 8yr deal (like a dumbass) the season prior?
See: agenda

[Funktion]

Detroit would have been goat

[Wade's Rings]

Those Bulls teams won the same amount of games with or without MJ

1993- 57 wins

MJ leaves

1994- 55 wins




Jordan was a good piece for the Bulls to have, but ultimately insignificant

1993- Championship

MJ leaves

1994- ECSF

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-18-2015/f2jwKx.gif


Meanwhile, the real dynasty is underway in Golden State.



Dynasties are always smart teams.. Otoh, Lebron's less adjustable style prevents his teams from using optimal, cutting edge strategy.. Instead, it's the opposite - Lebron's opponents in the Finals are the ones employing the superior, cutting-edge strategy (i.e. Spurs, Warriors) - they're the teams that are considered the "smart" teams in the league, not Lebron's.

Otoh, MJ's teams were like the Warriors and Spurs because they were percieved to be one of the smartest teams that employed the league's cutting edge strategy.. MJ's GOAT level of offensive sophistication (shown in GIF above) provided the necessary adjustability and capacity to be the centerpiece of cutting edge strategy (the triangle).

Unfortunately, Lebron-ball's rigid, straightforward approach means it can never be part of an all-time great team - historically, all-time great teams (i.e. previous era Celtics, Bulls, Spurs) have invariably used cutting edge strategy over an extended period of time, which gives the team a sustainable advantage on the rest of the league.. Accordingly, these teams were perceived as "smart", which Lebron's teams are never perceived as, and never will be.
.

[Hey Yo]

1993- Championship

MJ leaves

1994- ECSF
1995- MJ comes back, with 17 games left in the season to try to win a cheap ring, gets beat in the ECSF

[3ball]

1995 - MJ comes back, with 17 games left in the season to try to win a cheap ring, gets beat in the ECSF


You made my point in bold..

Just think, 1.5 years off playing baseball, and WOW, the Bulls had lost a little chemistry???... Seems impossible that they would lose chemistry... Who would've ever thought...

[3ball]

1993 - Championship

MJ leaves

1994- ECSF


True, but it wasn't just 1 championship though - it was a dynasty 3-peat championship... only 3 teams have ever done that, ever.. A three-peat is a big difference from a 1-off championship.

The Bulls went from 3-peat dynasty... to 2nd round playoff exit... back to 3-peat dynasty - it's literally the biggest drop-off and recovery in NBA history.

That's what happens when you add MJ's goat stats to a team without reducing what was already there - Pippen and Kukoc's stats barely changed alongside MJ.

MJ's off-ball style (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/9VPzJD.gif) allowed him to add his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there without diminishing anything.. This maximized the team's production capability, thus eliminating the possibility of underachieving.

[Hey Yo]

You made my point in bold..

Just think, 1.5 years off playing baseball, and WOW, the Bulls had lost a little chemistry???... Seems impossible that they would lose chemistry... Who would've ever thought...
13-4 with MJ to finish the season. Quit making excuses

[Hey Yo]

No need for excuses - if MJ had retired in 1989, the Bulls wouldn't have been in ECF veterans and 1 year away from winning it all going into 1990 season.

They would've been a lottery team instead, which means they would never have been defending 3-peat champions by 1994 (they would've been in the lottery the entire time).
You mean like Cleveland was the year before they drafted LeBron and 4yrs straight after he left? The worst combined 4yr record in the league?

You bring up chemistry but how was the chemistry for the Cavs once the playoffs started this year? How was it in the Finals losing 2 starters (against the no.1 offense and defense in the league) yet still found a way to win 2 games?

[Hey Yo]

ahhhhh..... I see you deleted your post after seeing how dumb it was.

Not the first time and def. not the last.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Didn't read any of this but OP is a ******. Will neg.

[Asukal]

3ball stop with the hypotheticals and ifs and buts. You sound like loseruss. :facepalm

I swear you must be his alt, you're trying way too hard to make people hate MJ. :banghead:

[3ball]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs2/1445337_o.gif


Why not take every top 10 guy off their team at a random, arbitrary moment and see what they accomplish. I'm sure it would all be similar, gag on my friend.



What star leaves a team after they just won 66 games without having gotten over the hump and won anything?

Not a top 15 all-time player.. I guarantee that.

Otoh, MJ didn't leave while his team was in the middle of a cutting-teeth process against the Bad Boys.. He stuck it out until they got over the hump.. After they got over the hump, the team was no longer a virgin - they were a completely different team from that point forward, thanks to MJ.

Honestly, Lebron's dumb.. There's no reason to believe that his 2010 wasn't like MJ's 1990, where MJ lost in heart-breaking fashion for the 3rd year in a row, for the FINAL TIME.. How does Lebron know his Cleveland team wouldn't have broken through in 2011 like MJ did in 1991?.. Lebron didn't have the balls to take that gamble.. But it would've worked out because by breaking through organically with a core group, that results in the same sustainable core and superior teamwork that all long-reigning champions have historically had.

Regarding MJ's impact - if he wasn't on the 47-win Bulls in 1989, they're a lottery team that year and miss the playoffs - this is all but fact.. It's not disputable just like OJ's murder isn't disputable (even though similarly, you can't prove it to me this very instant).. MJ's impact in 1989 was the difference between being a lottery team going into the 1990 season, or a tested ECF team that was 1 season away from the start of their first 3-peat - that's an utterly massive gap.
.

[warriorfan]

Didn't read any of this but OP is a ******. Will neg.

Jelly cause OP has forgotten more about bball than you will ever know

#DealWithIt

[SouBeachTalents]

What star leaves a team after they just won 66 games without having gotten over the hump and won anything?

Not a top 15 all-time player.. I guarantee that.

Otoh, MJ didn't leave while his team was in the middle of a cutting-teeth process against the Bad Boys.. He stuck it out until they got over the hump.. After they got over the hump, the team was no longer a virgin - they were a completely different team from that point forward, thanks to MJ.

Honestly, Lebron's dumb.. There's no reason to believe that his 2010 wasn't like MJ's 1990, where MJ lost in heart-breaking fashion for the 3rd year in a row, for the FINAL TIME.. How does Lebron know his Cleveland team wouldn't have broken through in 2011 like MJ did in 1991?.. Lebron didn't have the balls to take that gamble.. But it would've worked out because by breaking through organically with a core group, that results in the same sustainable core and superior teamwork that all long-reigning champions have historically had.

Regarding MJ's impact - if he wasn't on the 47-win Bulls in 1989, they're a lottery team that year and miss the playoffs - this is all but fact.. It's not disputable just like OJ's murder isn't disputable (even though similarly, you can't prove it to me this very instant).. MJ's impact in 1989 was the difference between being a lottery team going into the 1990 season, or a tested ECF team that was 1 season away from the start of their first 3-peat - that's an utterly massive gap.
.

I think it's possible if LeBron had a great second option like a Pippen as well as a coach like Phil he stays in Cleveland. And say what you want, but if Jordan had LeBron's roster you don't know 100% if he stays or not

[3ball]

I think it's possible if LeBron had a great second option like a Pippen as well as a coach like Phil he stays in Cleveland.

And say what you want, but if Jordan had LeBron's roster you don't know 100% if he stays or not


You're forgetting the time period you're talking about - in 1989 and 1990, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER, COACH AND BASKETBALL PERSON viewed the Bulls as the most 1-man team in the entire league.

This is not hyperbole or exaggeration.. There's a reason he faced the "Jordan Rules" and he had nicknames of "1-man show" while his supporting cast was called the "Jordanaires".. There's a reason MJ had to lead the league in scoring every year.

In 1989, MJ's 2nd option was Pippen's 14.4/6.1/3.5.. But Pippen was a 2nd year player, and his stats cratered to 9/5/3 in the first round against Cleveland, when MJ hit "the shot".

Otoh, Lebron had experienced veterans as his 2nd and 3rd options in Mo Williams (16/5) and Antawn Jamison (16/8), both superior to Pippen's 14/6.. Furthermore, Williams and Jamison were vets, so their stats didn't crater in the playoffs like 2nd year Pippen's.. Cavs also had Shaq, Delonte West, Anderson Varejao, JJ Hickson, Zydrunas Illgauskas, and Anthony Parker.. That's a vastly superior cast of veterans compared to the baby "Jordanaires".

So don't use the argument that MJ had a better roster - he didn't - he had a FAR WORSE roster, and they were all babies, not vets like Lebron's crew.. But while Lebron abandoned a 66-win team, MJ stuck with his team.

He also employed a more optimal, off-ball style that allowed him to achieve GOAT stats without diminishing the stats of teammates.. Imagine if Bosh's stats REMAINED at 20/10 alongside Lebron.. That's what happened for Pippen and Kukoc alongside MJ, while Kerr/Paxson/BJ never sucked like Chalmers/Cole/Battier.. Teammates didn't have to abandon their comfort zones alongside MJ and could maintain their normal statistical production, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement.. In hindsight, 6/6 is no surprise.
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[24-Inch_Chrome]

Jelly cause OP has forgotten more about bball than you will ever know

#DealWithIt

I'm sorry, I don't speak ******.

[dunksby]

Jordan quit, he literally quit, get over it.

[Hey Yo]

What star leaves a team after they just won 66 games without having gotten over the hump and won anything?

Not a top 15 all-time player.. I guarantee that.

Otoh, MJ didn't leave while his team was in the middle of a cutting-teeth process against the Bad Boys.. He stuck it out until they got over the hump.. After they got over the hump, the team was no longer a virgin - they were a completely different team from that point forward, thanks to MJ.

Honestly, Lebron's dumb.. There's no reason to believe that his 2010 wasn't like MJ's 1990, where MJ lost in heart-breaking fashion for the 3rd year in a row, for the FINAL TIME.. How does Lebron know his Cleveland team wouldn't have broken through in 2011 like MJ did in 1991?.. Lebron didn't have the balls to take that gamble..But it would've worked out because by breaking through organically with a core group, that results in the same sustainable core and superior teamwork that all long-reigning champions have historically had.
Jordan's first playoff series against those Pistons was in 1988. He signed an 8yr deal later that summer.

For the second time in this thread MJ couldn't have left because he was under contract

Quit duckin' my posts.

[Iceman#44]

Those Bulls teams won the same amount of games with or without MJ

1993- 57 wins

MJ leaves

1994- 55 wins




Jordan was a good piece for the Bulls to have, but ultimately insignificant
2/6 doe

[diamenz]

Jordan's first playoff series against those Pistons was in 1988. He signed an 8yr deal later that summer.

For the second time in this thread MJ couldn't have left because he was under contract

Quit duckin' my posts.

people didn't 'leave' in the 80's and nineties to join their rivals. it was a man's league back then.