Replace 1-time all-star Horace on Bulls w/ 10-time all-star Bosh

[3ball]

Oh wait... Nevermind again... MJ won anyway.

I guess MJ is capable of 3-peating with a career 11/8 player as his #3 option, while Lebron needs a 19/9 guy as his #3 option.

And even then Lebron can't go 6/6.. He can only go 1/4... I mean 2/4.

[SouBeachTalents]

Grant 1991 playoffs: 13 & 8 on 58%
Bosh 2012 playoffs: 14 & 8 on 49%

Grant 1992 playoffs: 11/9/3 on 54%
Bosh 2013 playoffs: 12 & 7 on 46%

[JerrySeinfeld]

you can call it 2/4 but that 2012 run was as rigged as any.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Grant 1991 playoffs: 13 & 8 on 58%
Bosh 2012 playoffs: 14 & 8 on 49%

Grant 1992 playoffs: 11/9/3 on 54%
Bosh 2013 playoffs: 12 & 7 on 46%

LeBron makes those around him better though?

[pastis]

Grant 1991 playoffs: 13 & 8 on 58%
Bosh 2012 playoffs: 14 & 8 on 49%

Grant 1992 playoffs: 11/9/3 on 54%
Bosh 2013 playoffs: 12 & 7 on 46%


:applause: :applause:

[livinglegend]

you can call it 2/4 but that 2012 run was as rigged as any.

doesn't matter, Miami overcame it and still won.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Grant 1991 playoffs: 13 & 8 on 58%
Bosh 2012 playoffs: 14 & 8 on 49%

Grant 1992 playoffs: 11/9/3 on 54%
Bosh 2013 playoffs: 12 & 7 on 46%
Thats what happens when u have an offball game and dont turn ur teammates into spotup shooters

[livinglegend]

Grant 1991 playoffs: 13 & 8 on 58%
Bosh 2012 playoffs: 14 & 8 on 49%

Grant 1992 playoffs: 11/9/3 on 54%
Bosh 2013 playoffs: 12 & 7 on 46%
:lebronamazed:

[livinglegend]

Thats what happens when u have an offball game and dont turn ur teammates into spotup shooters

You mean when you have Pippen.
Because Jordan was 1-9 without him.

[warriorfan]

Grant 1991 playoffs: 13 & 8 on 58%
Bosh 2012 playoffs: 14 & 8 on 49%

Grant 1992 playoffs: 11/9/3 on 54%
Bosh 2013 playoffs: 12 & 7 on 46%

Way to ether yourself, all this shows is how LeBron ball makes players less produce less where Jordan elevated his teammates.


There is no way in hell you can argue that Horace Grant is better than Chris Bosh.

[SouBeachTalents]

Way to ether yourself, all this shows is how LeBron ball makes players less produce less where Jordan elevated his teammates.


There is no way in hell you can argue that Horace Grant is better than Chris Bosh.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=379867

[dubeta]

Thats what happens when u have an offball game and dont turn ur teammates into spotup shooters

so what CP3 does to Blake?

[3ball]

Grant 1991 playoffs: 13 & 8 on 58%
Bosh 2012 playoffs: 14 & 8 on 49%

Grant 1992 playoffs: 11/9/3 on 54%
Bosh 2013 playoffs: 12 & 7 on 46%


Bosh averaged 24/11 before Lebron.. Then he sacrificed his prime years for Lebron-ball, where his stats dipped to 16/6.

Otoh, Grant played at full capacity alongside MJ: Grant averaged 14/10 with MJ, and 15/11 without in 1994..

Again, MJ's off-ball style didn't reduce the stats of his teammates like Lebron's ball-dominance does.. Remember, it wasn't just Grant - Pippen and Kukoc's numbers barely changed as well.. MJ's more optimal style allowed him to add his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there without reducing it, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement..

When you add goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there, you can turn a 2nd round exit team into a 3-peat dynasty - the Bulls went from 3-peat, to 2nd round exit, to 3-peat - that's the biggest drop-off in NBA history.. and also the biggest recovery in NBA history..
.

[JerrySeinfeld]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=379867

lol who cares about the finals mvp? winning the chip is all that matters.

caring about the finals mvp results in shit like lebron choking away a huge lead in game 2 of the finals because he was afraid of Wade getting the Finals MVP and started ball hogging and firing up bricks and slinging turnovers

[livinglegend]

We have OJ-type proof that Lebron craters Bosh's stats (by OJ-type proof, I mean that we have so much circumstantial evidence, we KNOW it's true, but nonetheless, no one in the world could actually prove OJ killed his wife, even though we KNOW he did).

Bosh averaged 24/11 before Lebron, then he sacrificed his prime years for Lebron-ball, where his stats dipped to 16/6.

Otoh, Grant played at full capacity alongside MJ: Grant averaged 14/10 with MJ, and 15/11 without in 1994..

Again, MJ's off-ball style didn't reduce the stats of his teammates like Lebron's ball-dominance does.. It wasn't just Grant - Pippen and Kukoc's numbers barely changed as well.. MJ's more optimal style allowed him to ADD his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement..

When you add goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there, you can turn a 2nd round exit team into a 3-peat dynasty - the Bulls went from 3-peat, to 2nd round exit, to 3-peat - that's the biggest drop-off and the biggest recovery in NBA history..


Prove it.
You can't.



NEXT

[warriorfan]

lol who cares about the finals mvp? winning the chip is all that matters.

caring about the finals mvp results in shit like lebron choking away a huge lead in game 2 of the finals because he was afraid of Wade getting the Finals MVP and started ball hogging and firing up bricks and slinging turnovers

True, and anyone with half a brain knows that Steph Curry was the best player of the series. ESPN and Bleacher Report have zero credibility.

[livinglegend]

lol who cares about the finals mvp? winning the chip is all that matters.

caring about the finals mvp results in shit like lebron choking away a huge lead in game 2 of the finals because he was afraid of Wade getting the Finals MVP and started ball hogging and firing up bricks and slinging turnovers

Curry cares.
His face when Andre was announced FMVP :roll: :roll: :roll:

[livinglegend]

True, and anyone with half a brain knows that Steph Curry was the best player of the series. ESPN and Bleacher Report have zero credibility.

Anyone with a full brain know that Steph got carried. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:


NEXT

[warriorfan]

Anyone with a full brain know that Steph got carried. :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:


NEXT

meltdown

[3ball]

Prove it.


Bosh averaged 24/11 before Lebron.. Then he sacrificed his prime years for Lebron-ball, where his stats dipped to 16/6.

Otoh, Grant played at full capacity alongside MJ: Grant averaged 14/10 with MJ, and 15/11 without in 1994..

Again, MJ's off-ball style didn't reduce the stats of his teammates like Lebron's ball-dominance does.. Remember, it wasn't just Grant - Pippen and Kukoc's numbers barely changed as well..

MJ's more optimal style allowed him to add his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there without reducing it, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement..

When you add goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there, you can turn a 2nd round exit team into a 3-peat dynasty - the Bulls went from 3-peat, to 2nd round exit, to 3-peat - that's the biggest drop-off in NBA history.. and also the biggest recovery in NBA history..

[livinglegend]

meltdown

Damn, that was easy.


NEXT victim please

[livinglegend]

Bosh averaged 24/11 before Lebron.. Then he sacrificed his prime years for Lebron-ball, where his stats dipped to 16/6.

Otoh, Grant played at full capacity alongside MJ: Grant averaged 14/10 with MJ, and 15/11 without in 1994..

Again, MJ's off-ball style didn't reduce the stats of his teammates like Lebron's ball-dominance does.. Remember, it wasn't just Grant - Pippen and Kukoc's numbers barely changed as well.. MJ's more optimal style allowed him to add his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there without reducing it, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement..

When you add goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there, you can turn a 2nd round exit team into a 3-peat dynasty - the Bulls went from 3-peat, to 2nd round exit, to 3-peat - that's the biggest drop-off in NBA history.. and also the biggest recovery in NBA history..

that's not a proof.
these are assumptions.



NEXT

[dubeta]

livinglegend on a roll :oldlol:

taking warriorfan and 3ball both at once

aka livingrentfree

[JerrySeinfeld]

3ball posts hard stats proving his points

"these are assumptions"

:roll:

[3ball]

that's not a proof.
these are assumptions.



NEXT
It's a FACT that Bosh's stats went from 24/11 without Lebron... to 16/6 with Lebron.. This is a FACT, not an assumption.

It's a FACT that Grant's stats went from 14/10 with MJ... to 15/11 without MJ.. This is a FACT, not an assumption.

It's a FACT that Pippen and Kukoc's stats barely changed when MJ left - this a FACT, not an assumption.

The FACTS are that Lebron cratered Bosh's stats (24/11 to 16/6), while Pippen, Kukoc, and Grant all played to capacity alongside MJ (as evidenced by their unchanged stats).

[3ball]

It's a FACT that Bosh's stats went from 24/11 without Lebron... to 16/6 with Lebron.. This is a FACT, not an assumption.

It's a FACT that Grant's stats went from 14/10 with MJ... to 15/11 without MJ.. This is a FACT, not an assumption.

It's a FACT that Pippen and Kukoc's stats barely changed when MJ left - this a FACT, not an assumption.

The FACTS are that Lebron cratered Bosh's stats (24/11 to 16/6), while Pippen, Kukoc, and Grant all played to capacity alongside MJ (as evidenced by their unchanged stats).


Again, MJ's off-ball style didn't reduce the stats of his teammates like Lebron's ball-dominance does.

MJ's more optimal style allowed him to add his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there without reducing it, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement..

When you add goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there, you can turn a 2nd round exit team into a 3-peat dynasty - the Bulls went from 3-peat... to 2nd round exit... to 3-peat - that's the biggest drop-off in NBA history.. and also the biggest recovery in NBA history..

[livinglegend]

It's a FACT that Bosh's stats went from 24/11 without Lebron... to 16/6 with Lebron.. This is a FACT, not an assumption.

It's a FACT that Grant's stats went from 14/10 with MJ... to 15/11 without MJ.. This is a FACT, not an assumption.

It's a FACt that Pippen and Kukoc's stats also barely changed when MJ left - this a FACT, not an assumption.

The FACTS are that Lebron cratered Bosh's stats (24/11 to 16/6), while Pippen, Kukoc, and Grant all played to capacity alongside MJ (as evidenced by their unchanged stats).

It doesn't prove that those stats happened because of Lebron or because of Jordan.
Many factors are in play.
You assumed they happened because of them.


fact: 1-9 without pippen


NEXT

[warriorfan]

http://m0.her.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/10173732/you-can-t-handle-the-truth-o.gif

[livinglegend]

Again, MJ's off-ball style didn't reduce the stats of his teammates like Lebron's ball-dominance does.

MJ's more optimal style allowed him to add his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there without reducing it, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement..

When you add goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there, you can turn a 2nd round exit team into a 3-peat dynasty - the Bulls went from 3-peat, to 2nd round exit, to 3-peat - that's the biggest drop-off in NBA history.. and also the biggest recovery in NBA history..


more assumptions




NEXT

[JerrySeinfeld]

It doesn't prove that those stats happened because of Lebron or because of Jordan.
Many factors are in play.
You assumed they happened because of them.


NEXT

or are you just assuming that he's assuming that it happened because of them instead of merely just stating facts and letting everyone draw their own conclusions from them?

[livinglegend]

or are you just assuming that he's assuming that it happened because of them instead of merely just stating facts and letting everyone draw their own conclusions from them?

Hey, time to go back to your hole :lol :lol
You re embarassing yourself.


NEXT

[dubeta]

Hey, time to go back to your hole :lol :lol
You re embarassing yourself.


NEXT

:roll: :applause:

[3ball]

stating facts and letting everyone draw their own conclusions from them?


There's no need for everyone to draw their own conclusions - Lebron cratered Bosh's and Love's stats - any other conclusion is intellectually dishonest.

Whereas the stats of Grant, Pippen and Kukoc all remained steady with or without MJ..

It's simply a fact that Grant, Pippen and Kukoc were able to play at literally 95% or greater capacity alongside MJ.. That's what the stats show plain as day - any other conclusion is intellectually dishonest.

[livinglegend]

There's no need for everyone to draw their own conclusions - Lebron cratered Bosh's and Love's stats - any other conclusion is intellectually dishonest.

Whereas the stats of Grant, Pippen and Kukoc all remained steady with or without MJ.. It's a fact that these guys were able to play at literally 95% or greater capacity alongside MJ.. That's what the stats show plain as day - any other conclusion is intellectually dishonest.


more assumptions



FACT: 1-9 WITHOUT PIPPEN

NEXT

[nzahir]

more assumptions



FACT: 1-9 WITHOUT PIPPEN

NEXT
:applause: :bowdown: :bowdown:
3ball probably woat poster on here tbh.

Hey 3ball where did bosh carry the raptors again? Did he ever go past the semis?

[warriorfan]

lebron stans can't handle the truth. the funniest part is lebron stans are all about the box score until it exposes LBJ and then the double standards come that the box isn't legit :oldlol:

[dubeta]

lebron stans can't handle the truth. the funniest part is lebron stans are all about the box score until it exposes LBJ and then the double standards come that the box isn't legit :oldlol:


The only truth worth discussing is 0/11 :oldlol:

[nzahir]

55 wins without Mj...****ING FACT.
19 wins without bron in 2011-FACT
37 wins for Mia and missed the playoffs after lebron led them to 4 finals in a row-FACT

Impact of lebron is probably the biggest impact of all time, more than Mj even

[Nash]

Chris Bosh Toronto = 1st option
Chris Bosh Miami = 3rd option

How the f..ck are his stats not going down? You do know there is only one ball out there?

[warriorfan]

Chris Bosh Toronto = 1st option
Chris Bosh Miami = 3rd option

How the f..ck are his stats not going down? You do know there is only one ball out there?

When was Horace Grant ever a first option? :eek: Stop ethering yourself

[3ball]

Uh... let's see...

Bosh... 10-time All-Star... Career 19/9 player.

Grant... 1-time All-Star... Career 11/8 player*


* same as Tristan Thompson.. also, Tristan is 10/11 in playoffs compared to Grant's 11/9

[Nash]

When was Horace Grant ever a first option? :eek: Stop ethering yourself
when did I say anything about Horace Grant? I don't even know who Horace Grant is since I don't act as if I was watching basketball during the 90's.

[oarabbus]

Oh wait... Nevermind again... MJ won anyway.

I guess MJ is capable of 3-peating with a career 11/8 player as his #3 option, while Lebron needs a 19/9 guy as his #3 option.

And even then Lebron can't go 6/6.. He can only go 1/4... I mean 2/4.


Holy shit, LeBron nearly averages a triple double in the finals (Jordan could never even average a double double) and Bron STILL lost. The league has gotten WAY better since the 90s. You heard it from 3ball himself, kids.

[3ball]

Holy shit, LeBron nearly averages a triple double in the finals (Jordan could never even average a double double) and Bron STILL lost.


Lebron would've won the 2015 NBA Finals if he had done EITHER of the following:


1) not choked away Game 4 (with a chance to go up 3-1 and secure the championship), by only scoring 20 points with zero in 4th.

2) shot better than 39.8% against single-coverage and 1-on-1 all series long.


At that shooting percentage, the Cavs had no shot of winning and Golden State had no incentive to double team someone that needed 35 shots to get 35 points.

Golden State played Lebron - they exploited his horrific 33% isolation field goal percentage.. It's always the best defensive strategy to allow someone to shoot at 33% over and over.. They exploited his bad 1-on-1 and isolation skills just like teams exploit Deandre's FT shooting.. It was like letta-Lebron-iso vs. hack-a-Deandre.

[LAZERUSS]

Grant 1991 playoffs: 13 & 8 on 58%
Bosh 2012 playoffs: 14 & 8 on 49%

Grant 1992 playoffs: 11/9/3 on 54%
Bosh 2013 playoffs: 12 & 7 on 46%


Furthermore...

Grant in his '94 post-season without MJ:

16-7-3 on a .542.

Then, how about his next two post-seasons after he left the Bulls:

14-10-2 .540
15-10-1 .649


Oh, and against MJ's Bulls in the '95 playoffs:

18-11-2 .647 FG%.


I would take Grant over Bosh in a heart-beat.

[JohnMax]

Chris Bosh Playoff Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html)

2006-07 17.5 ppg 6.3 fta 9.0 rpg 2.5 apg 39.6 fg%
2007-08 24.0 ppg 8.4 fta 9.0 rpg 3.6 apg 47.2 fg%
2010-11 18.6 ppg 6.7 fta 8.5 rpg 1.1 apg 47.4 fg%
2011-12 14.0 ppg 3.7 fta 7.8 rpg 0.6 apg 49.3 fg%
2012-13 12.1 ppg 2.6 fta 7.3 rpg 1.5 apg 45.8 fg%
2013-14 14.9 ppg 2.4 fta 5.6 rpg 1.1 apg 50.7 fg%

[Rocketswin2013]

Bosh averaged 24/11 before Lebron.. Then he sacrificed his prime years for Lebron-ball, where his stats dipped to 16/6.

Otoh, Grant played at full capacity alongside MJ: Grant averaged 14/10 with MJ, and 15/11 without in 1994..

Again, MJ's off-ball style didn't reduce the stats of his teammates like Lebron's ball-dominance does.. Remember, it wasn't just Grant - Pippen and Kukoc's numbers barely changed as well.. MJ's more optimal style allowed him to add his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there without reducing it, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement..

When you add goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there, you can turn a 2nd round exit team into a 3-peat dynasty - the Bulls went from 3-peat, to 2nd round exit, to 3-peat - that's the biggest drop-off in NBA history.. and also the biggest recovery in NBA history..
.
Grant was selected to his only all-star game without Jordan in '94. A season they won 55 games btw.

[LAZERUSS]

Chris Bosh Playoff Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html)

2006-07 17.5 ppg 6.3 fta 9.0 rpg 2.5 apg 39.6 fg%
2007-08 24.0 ppg 8.4 fta 9.0 rpg 3.6 apg 47.2 fg%
2010-11 18.6 ppg 6.7 fta 8.5 rpg 1.1 apg 47.4 fg%
2011-12 14.0 ppg 3.7 fta 7.8 rpg 0.6 apg 49.3 fg%
2012-13 12.1 ppg 2.6 fta 7.3 rpg 1.5 apg 45.8 fg%
2013-14 14.9 ppg 2.4 fta 5.6 rpg 1.1 apg 50.7 fg%

And yet Grant was a considerably better player. Again, I would take Grant over Bosh in a heartbeat.

[LAZERUSS]

Grant was selected to his only all-star game without Jordan in '94. A season they won 55 games btw.

Not only that, but Grant missed 13 games that year, and Pippen missed 10. Had those two been healthy all year, they likely would have won 60+ games.

And we KNOW just how important that would have been. It would have given those Bulls HCA. Given the fact that they lost a close (and controversial) seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks...the same Knicks team that lost a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them BTW)...well, with HCA there was a good chance that they would have won their 4th straight title in '94.

[Rocketswin2013]

Not only that, but Grant missed 13 games that year, and Pippen missed 10. Had those two been healthy all year, they likely would have won 60+ games.

And we KNOW just how important that would have been. It would have given those Bulls HCA. Given the fact that they lost a close (and controversial) seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks...the same Knicks team that lost a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them BTW)...well, with HCA there was a good chance that they would have won their 4th straight title in '94.
A championship roster without Jordan.

[LAZERUSS]

A championship roster without Jordan.

At the very least...a championship contender.

Fans forget that the Bulls basically replaced MJ with Pete Myers in '94, and they declined from a 57-25 title team, down to a 55-27 contending team.

BTW, in the '94-95 season, the Bulls no longer had Horace Grant, and without both him and MJ, they still went 34-31.

And when MJ finally came back, he posted his usual post-season run, but his Bulls lost to Grant's Magic in the '95 ECSF's...and the Magic were then swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

When Chicago ultimately replaced their big hole at the PF position with Dennis Rodman...another three-peat.

[LAZERUSS]

Grant was a KEY piece in the Bulls runs from '91 thru '94.

[Trollsmasher]

livinglegend going deep on 3ball:lebronamazed:

[TheMan]

Looks like the LeBron family (dubeta and his alts), have all come back from hiding :oldlol:

Y'all ready for 2/7 fakkits? :roll:

BTW, LAZZ going in full retard with his "Grant is a considerably better player than Bosh", a ten time All Star is way worse than a one time All Star...you can't make this up :oldlol: Or is he saying this era is way weaker than the 90s :confusedshrug:

[Megabox!]

I guess MJ was holding Grant back, because a few years later in the 95' playoffs Grant took a dump on the Bulls knocking them out of the postseason :applause:

[kshutts1]

Grant 1991 playoffs: 13 & 8 on 58%
Bosh 2012 playoffs: 14 & 8 on 49%

Grant 1992 playoffs: 11/9/3 on 54%
Bosh 2013 playoffs: 12 & 7 on 46%
This.

And 3ball, please compare the numbers of actual role players with Lebron vs without, and not all-stars. That's entirely misleading, and entirely you.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Chris Bosh Playoff Stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html)

2006-07 17.5 ppg 6.3 fta 9.0 rpg 2.5 apg 39.6 fg% (first round exit)
2007-08 24.0 ppg 8.4 fta 9.0 rpg 3.6 apg 47.2 fg% (first round exit)
2010-11 18.6 ppg 6.7 fta 8.5 rpg 1.1 apg 47.4 fg% (finals)
2011-12 14.0 ppg 3.7 fta 7.8 rpg 0.6 apg 49.3 fg% (championship)
2012-13 12.1 ppg 2.6 fta 7.3 rpg 1.5 apg 45.8 fg% (championship)
2013-14 14.9 ppg 2.4 fta 5.6 rpg 1.1 apg 50.7 fg% (finals)

:confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

Looks like the LeBron family (dubeta and his alts), have all come back from hiding :oldlol:

Y'all ready for 2/7 fakkits? :roll:

BTW, LAZZ going in full retard with his "Grant is a considerably better player than Bosh", a ten time All Star is way worse than a one time All Star...you can't make this up :oldlol: Or is he saying this era is way weaker than the 90s :confusedshrug:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

First off all, I could not care less about AS appearances. Why?

Because Grant's prime was from '90 thru '95, or only six seasons. BUT, in those six seasons, he was a considerably greater player than Bosh ever was.

Take a look at BOTH regular season ORtg and post-season ORtg. A prime Grant SLAUGHTERED Bosh in that category. Grant was even a LEAGUE LEADER in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season in that category.

Secondly, Grant never had the luxury of being "the man" on losing teams year-after-year. And when Bosh joined a good roster, he immediately accepted his role as a third wheel, and in his biggest games in that role, was awful.

Furthermore, Grant was playing alongside MJ and Pippen...with both of them averaging 36-41 FGAs per game in that span. Bosh was playing with Lebron and Wade, and their 32-36 FGAs per game in his four years with them.

And we saw what Grant did without MJ. Was a key factor in season in which his team went 55-27, and then destroyed MJ's Bulls the very next season in the ECSF's.

Again...I would take a prime Grant over ANY Bosh...any time.

[Ne 1]

Grant 1991 playoffs: 13 & 8 on 58%
Bosh 2012 playoffs: 14 & 8 on 49%

Grant 1992 playoffs: 11/9/3 on 54%
Bosh 2013 playoffs: 12 & 7 on 46%

But when was the last time a team in the last 25 years had a 3rd option as good as Chris Bosh? When he joined Miami he was coming off a 24/11 year on 52% shooting and 5 consecutive All-Star selections, and was regarded as a top 15 player in the league.

The knock on Bosh was always that he was a pseudo superstar/franchise player who would be better suited as a 2nd option ala Pau Gasol, well, who would have thought he'd end up as a 3rd option in his prime?

[3ball]

Furthermore, Grant was playing alongside MJ and Pippen...with both of them averaging 36-41 FGAs per game in that span.


Again, Grant achieved his maximum stats alongside MJ.. He got 14/10 in 1992 with MJ, while his career high was 15/11 without MJ in 1994.. So it's a mathematical fact that Grant played at 97% capacity alongside MJ.

MJ's off-ball style didn't reduce the stats of his teammates like Lebron's ball-dominance does.. Remember, it wasn't just Grant - Pippen and Kukoc's numbers barely changed as well..

MJ's more optimal style allowed him to add his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there without reducing it, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement..

When you add goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there, you can turn a 2nd round exit team into a 3-peat dynasty - the Bulls went from 3-peat, to 2nd round exit, to 3-peat - that's the biggest drop-off in NBA history.. and also the biggest recovery in NBA history..
.

[LAZERUSS]

Grant achieved his maximum stats alongside MJ.. He got 14/10 in 1992 with MJ, while his career high was 15/11 without MJ in 1994.. This means it's a MATHEMATICAL FACT that Grant played at 97% capacity alongside MJ.

Otoh, Bosh averaged 24/11 before Lebron.. Then he sacrificed his prime years for Lebron-ball, where his stats dipped to 16/6.. So clearly, Bosh was not allowed to play to capacity alongside Lebron..



Wow, this is dumb... Grant is not capable of being a #1 option on ANY team.. There isn't a team bad enough to make Grant a #1 option in the NBA...

Grant would be a 3rd option on ANY team he's on, just like he was in 1994 - when MJ left in 1994, he was still a 3rd option behind Kukoc.. On most team's he'd be a 4th or 5th option... It's sheer dumbness to think he could ever be a #1 option on any NBA team.



Again, Grant achieved his maximum stats alongside MJ.. He got 14/10 in 1992 with MJ, while his career high was 15/11 without MJ in 1994.. So it's a mathematical fact that Grant played at 97% capacity alongside MJ.

MJ's off-ball style didn't reduce the stats of his teammates like Lebron's ball-dominance does.. Remember, it wasn't just Grant - Pippen and Kukoc's numbers barely changed as well..

MJ's more optimal style allowed him to add his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there without reducing it, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement..

When you add goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there, you can turn a 2nd round exit team into a 3-peat dynasty - the Bulls went from 3-peat, to 2nd round exit, to 3-peat - that's the biggest drop-off in NBA history.. and also the biggest recovery in NBA history..
.

Let's get REAL here...

The '94 Bulls basically replaced MJ with PETE MYERS. They dropped from a 57-25 team that won the title...down to a 55-27 record, and in all actuality, came within an eyelash of winning the title.

The '94 team, again, withOUT Jordan, not only went 55-27, their two best players, Pippen and Grant, missed a combined 23 games! Think about that. Had those two been relatively healthy all season, and they surely would have won 60+ games. And just how important would that have been?

They lost a close (and controversial) seven game series to the 56-26 Knicks (losing game seven on NY's home floor)...the same Knicks team that lost a game seven, by four points, to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored Houston in the series.)

BUT, it gets even better...

The next year, 94-95, Grant bolts for Orlando. So now, without BOTH Jordan and Grant, Pippen still leads the Bulls to 34-31 record! THEN, a fully refreshed MJ come back to play the last 17 games, and by the playoffs, he is playing as well as he did in the '93 post-season (and considerably better than what he would play in his '96 run.) BUT, even with that, his Bulls lose to the Magic in the ECSF's by a solid 4-2 margin...in a series in which Grant just DESTROYED them with an 18-11 .647 FG%. Then, the Magic are swept by a 47-35 Rockets team in the Finals. BTW, Grant put up a 14-12 .532 Finals.

So, the '94 Rockets, withOUT MJ, were considerably better than the '95 Bulls WITH MJ, and withOUT Grant.

[LAZERUSS]

Again...Grant was a KEY piece to the Bulls runs from '91 thru '94. And it took a HOFer in Rodman to replace him, to get the Bulls back to their title runs again.

And once again, Grant's IMPACT was FAR more than what Bosh's was. Bosh was basically a stats-padding loser before he joined up with Lebron. After that, a timid third-wheel who folded his tent in his biggest games.

You want IMPACT? Compare Grant's OTrg in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season, with Bosh's. It is truly laughable.

Grant with the Bulls from '91 thru '94...

regular seasons of 126, 132 (led the league), 118, and 117. Post-seasons of 130 (led the league), 127, 127, and 126 (and after that, 123 and 142.)

How about Bosh? His best regular season was 118 (for a 27-55 team), and a high in the post-season of 119, and many well below (as low as 98.)

Sorry, but a prime Grant was just a more impactful player than Bosh ever was.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Let's get REAL here...

The '94 Bulls basically replaced MJ with PETE MYERS. They dropped from a 57-25 team that won the title...down to a 55-27 record, and in all actuality, came within an eyelash of winning the title.

.

team doesn't even make the conference finals

"within an eyelash of winning the title"

:roll: :roll:

[3ball]

And we saw what Grant did without MJ


Grant achieved his maximum stats alongside MJ.. He got 14/10 in 1992 with MJ, while his career high was 15/11 without MJ in 1994.. This means it's a MATHEMATICAL FACT that Grant played at 97% capacity alongside MJ.

Otoh, Bosh averaged 24/11 before Lebron.. Then he sacrificed his prime years for Lebron-ball, where his stats dipped to 16/6.. So clearly, Bosh was not allowed to play to capacity alongside Lebron..





Secondly, Grant never had the luxury of being "the man" on losing teams year-after-year.


Wow, this is dumb... Grant is not capable of being a #1 option on ANY team.. There isn't a team bad enough to make Grant a #1 option in the NBA...

Grant would be a 3rd option on ANY team he's on, just like he was in 1994 - when MJ left in 1994, he was still a 3rd option behind Kukoc.. On most team's he'd be a 4th or 5th option... It's sheer dumbness to think he could ever be a #1 option on any NBA team.

[LAZERUSS]

Grant achieved his maximum stats alongside MJ.. He got 14/10 in 1992 with MJ, while his career high was 15/11 without MJ in 1994.. This means it's a MATHEMATICAL FACT that Grant played at 97% capacity alongside MJ.

Otoh, Bosh averaged 24/11 before Lebron.. Then he sacrificed his prime years for Lebron-ball, where his stats dipped to 16/6.. So clearly, Bosh was not allowed to play to capacity alongside Lebron..



Wow, this is dumb... Grant is not capable of being a #1 option on ANY team.. There isn't a team bad enough to make Grant a #1 option in the NBA...

Grant would be a 3rd option on ANY team he's on, just like he was in 1994 - when MJ left in 1994, he was still a 3rd option behind Kukoc.. On most team's he'd be a 4th or 5th option... It's sheer dumbness to think he could ever be a #1 option on any NBA team.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

If you think Bosh was going to average 24 with a shot-jacking MJ, and the 20 ppg scoring Pippen, you are seriously deluded. He wouldn't have scored 10 ppg playing with MJ, and certainly would never have dominated the front wall like Grant did.

[LAZERUSS]

Again...a prime Grant >>>> than the joke that was Bosh.

[3ball]

If you think Bosh was going to average 24 with a shot-jacking MJ, and the 20 ppg scoring Pippen,


Pippen did.. His stats barely changed when MJ was gone.. Same with Kukoc... and obviously Grant.

The stats prove that all three guys played at 95%+ capacity alongside MJ..

Otoh, Bosh and Love play at literally 60% capacity alongside Lebron.. It's pathetic.

But keep ignoring the cold........ hard........ stats..... It must be tough deluding yourself like that.... But carry on... It's a free country.. :rolleyes:





and certainly wouldn't have dominated the front wall like Grant did


:roll:

Oh, you mean like Grant's 11/8 career average (same as Tristan Thompson)??... and Tristan's playoff averages are superior - 10/11 to Grant's 11/9)

:roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Pippen did.. His stats barely changed when MJ was gone.. Same with Kukoc... and obviously Grant.

The stats prove that all three guys played at 95%+ capacity alongside MJ..

Otoh, Bosh and Love play at literally 60% capacity alongside Lebron.. It's pathetic.

But keep ignoring the cold........ hard........ stats..... It must be tough deluding yourself like that.... But carry on... It's a free country.. :rolleyes:



:roll:

Oh, you mean like Grant's 11/8 career average (same as Tristan Thompson)??... and Tristan's playoff averages are superior - 10/11 to Grant's 11/9)

:roll:

You think that Bosh is going to score 24 ppg with BOTH MJ and Pippen (who was a FAR greater player than Bosh will ever be)? Hell no...he would be lucky to put up a 10 ppg season, if that.

His numbers declined for the same reason with Lebron...a third wheel, who actually had considerably more FGAs playing with those two, than he would have with MJ and Pippen.

And let me know when Thompson puts up an 18-11 .647 series against a former champion.

[LAZERUSS]

The reality was, Mj played with rosters that were capable of winning 55+ games, and coming within an eyelash of winning a title...withOUT him.

Take Lebron away from Bosh's teams...guess what...a 37-45 team that couldn't make the playoffs.

And that was the norm for Lebron's teams. They would go 61-21 with him, and 19-63 without him.

[Ne 1]

And yet Grant was a considerably better player. Again, I would take Grant over Bosh in a heartbeat.

You're kidding yourself if you seriously believe Horace Grant was "considerably" better than Chris Bosh. Grant was a pure PF, Bosh's versatility as a stretch 4/5 sets him apart. He's a better scorer and by far a better shooter. Offensively, both can hit the midrange but Horace could never create like Bosh does on the high/mid and sometimes low post. Bosh is also easily a better pick and roll player.

Yeah, Bosh can be soft, but he's very quick and skilled. Not many players his size can stay in front of him when he faces up, he can shoot off the dribble, he can rebound, has the turnaround jumper, basically 3 point range, he's left-handed, he's also a a 7 footer who is an 80% career free throw shooter.

Grant was a 13 pt/9.5 rebound guy with great defense/elite offensive rebounding, but Bosh defensively is actually very underrated. He can guard many positions after switching which suited the trapping defensive style of the Heat very well. Overall as a rebounder, Bosh is actually probably just slightly below Grant.

[LAZERUSS]

Again, you're kidding yourself or you're delusional if you seriously believe Horace Grant was "considerably" better than Chris Bosh. Grant was a pure PF, Bosh's versatility as a stretch 4/5 sets him apart. He's a better scorer and by far a better shooter. Offensively, both can hit the midrange but Horace could never create like Bosh does on the high/mid and sometimes low post. Bosh is also easily a better pick and roll player.

Yeah, Bosh can be soft, but he's very quick and skilled. Not many players his size can stay in front of him when he faces up, he can shoot off the dribble, he can rebound, has the turnaround jumper, basically 3 point range, he's left-handed, he's also a a 7 footer who is an 80% career free throw shooter.

Grant was a 13 pt/9.5 rebound guy with great defense/elite offensive rebounding, but Bosh defensively is actually very underrated. He can guard many positions after switching which suited the trapping defensive style of the Heat very well. Overall as a rebounder, Bosh is actually probably just slightly below Grant.

I notice that you and 3Ball continually make the same posts in the same topic.

Once again...Grant's IMPACT, at BOTH ends, was FAR greater than Bosh's. Bosh could shot-jack his team to 27-55 records as the main guy, but once he actually played with any talent...he was timid "third wheel" who shrunk in his biggest games.

Grant >>> Bosh.

[LAZERUSS]

Furthermore, I get sick-and-tired of these topics to diminish Lebron. Lebron will never be MJ. So what?

MJ didn't win crap until he had rosters that were capable of winning 55+ games without him (and coming within an eyelash of winning a title without him, as well.)

Take Pippen and Grant away from MJ....and he was playoff cannon-fodder.

[Dragonyeuw]

Grant's main value was doing the dirty work inside. He was the one combating the 4/5's that the Bulls faced during their first title run. Offensively, he scored on putbacks and feeds from MJ/Pip complimented by a solid 15 foot jumpshot. When he left, the Bulls frontline was soft as charmin with Kukoc filling the role before Rodman came on-board.

Putting Bosh in that role doesn't guarantee the same results between 91 and 93, even though he is a more talented player. And I'd go as far as to say Bosh at the 4 wouldn't have been too much different from putting Kukoc at the 4 in 95, as far as the Bulls not being physical enough upfront which is what did them in against Orlando. Or quite simply, take the 95 team with a returning MJ, Pippen, no Grant, and let's replace Kukoc with Bosh. I say they still lose to Orlando, because Bosh would have gotten creamed inside by Shaq and Grant.

[LAZERUSS]

Grant's main value was doing the dirty work inside. He was the one combating the 4/5's that the Bulls faced during their first title run. Offensively, he scored on putbacks and feeds from MJ/Pip complimented by a solid 15 foot jumpshot. When he left, the Bulls frontline was soft as charmin with Kukoc filling the role before Rodman came on-board.

Putting Bosh in that role doesn't guarantee the same results, even though he is a more talented player. In fact I'd go as far as to say Bosh at the 4 wouldn't have been too much different from putting Kukoc at the 4, as far as the Bulls not being physical enough upfront which is what did them in against Orlando in 95. Or quite simply, take the 95 team with a returning MJ, Pippen, no Grant, and let's replace Kukoc with Bosh. I say they still lose to Orlando, because Bosh would have gotten creamed inside by Shaq and Grant.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Grant's IMPACT was DRAMATIC. All we need to know is that WITH him and MJ, they could win titles. Without MJ, he was a KEY piece to a 55 win team that, had been healthy, likely would have won 60+ games, and probably a title.

MJ without Grant...2nd round cannon-fodder. He needed HOFer Rodman to gt back to winning titles again.

Furthermore, we saw what a "third-wheel" Bosh was capable of ...ZERO points and 2 rebounds in a critical game seven. Basically was less of of a factor than the Bird-man.

[dubeta]

To anyone just joining this thread now


Cliffs: 1-9

[GimmeThat]

and replace sixth man of the year (Mike Miller) with most improved player of the year (Hedo Turkoglu)

and the Heat still shoots .400% against the Mavs

but can we count on a 1-time all-star to help carry the rebounding load?


no in-n-out about this team being stacked,

right gang?


edit- I would say Al Thornton, but that would get Shawn Marion jealous
have to overrate Eddie House here for the loss of Mike Miller though