Remember when Pippen went full-retard?

[3ball]

This was the infamous play where Phil Jackson wrote up the final play for Kukoc instead of Pippen at the end of Game 3 of 1994 ECSF.. Full description of Pippen's meltdown by Ernie Johnson below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m23s


Can you imagine the anguish Pippen must have felt???... All year long, he'd busted his ass to employ MJ's lessons and show that he could subsist on his own.. For his efforts, he'd managed to average a full 0.5 PPG more without MJ in the lineup.. But nonetheless, when push came to shove, Phil didn't trust him in the clutch.

Amazingly, Kukoc hit the walk-off "Ray Allen" to win Game 3, and save the Bulls from going down 3-0.

Can you imagine if Kukoc misses that shot and the Bulls get swept??.. We'd still be talking about the greatest gaffe anyone ever made in the clutch - indeed, Pippen, with MJ living rent-free, lost his shit in the 1994 ECF.
.

[Cocaine80s]

***** did cable even exist in 1994?

Old ass, most of us here weren't even born then

[SouBeachTalents]

We do remember when 3ball went full retard, shit happens on this forum every day

[LAZERUSS]

Not enough to constantly bash Lebron, but now to turn on a KEY players like Pippen and Grant (in yet another ridiculous topic in which you were routed)..players that won without MJ, but that MJ couldn't win without?

[LAZERUSS]

Almost as much "retard" as MJ quitting on his team in game five of the '89 ECF's...

[hitmanyr2k]

Remember when Pippen saved Jordan from the same team in the '93 ECF the year before? What a ****in luxury for Jordan to have someone who could give him 20+, 7, 6 and great defense to take the pressure off. Jordan retired 3 weeks before the '94 season and left Pippen with HOFer Pete Myers to fill his shoes though.

Pippen Leads Bull Charge -- Forward Saves Jordan, Sends Knicks Home (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19930605&slug=1704979)

PRO BASKETBALL; 'Pippen Flamboyant' Sends Bulls Into Finals (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/06/sports/pro-basketball-pippen-flamboyant-sends-bulls-into-finals.html)

[Foster5k]

Remember when that crazy dude kept making threads about Jordan? Oh wait, he still is.

[Droid101]

***** did cable even exist in 1994?

Old ass, most of us here weren't even born then
Get the **** off my forum child.

[T_L_P]

Phil benches his best player and still wins the game. :bowdown:

http://share.gifyoutube.com/vWQNL6.gif

[3ball]

Not enough to constantly bash Lebron, but now to turn on a KEY players like Pippen and Grant (in yet another ridiculous topic in which you were routed)..players that won without MJ, but that MJ couldn't win without?
Remember, Lebron's 3rd option was 10-time all-star Chris Bosh (19/9 career avg), compared to MJ's 3rd option of 1-time all-star Horace Grant (11/8 career avg).. Now consider the following:


Pippen and Grant < McHale, Parish, DJ

Pippen and Grant < Kareem, Worthy

Pippen and Grant < Wade, Bosh, Allen

Pippen and Grant < Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi

Pippen and Grant < Shaq, Medvedenko


Is there anyone else?... MJ slays Bird, Magic, Shaq and also lesser players Lebron and Duncan.. :bowdown:

[EveryManALion]

That other dude got a spider web for hair.:oldlol: :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

Remember, Lebron's 3rd option was 10-time all-star Chris Bosh (19/9 career avg), compared to MJ's 3rd option of 1-time all-star Horace Grant (11/8 career avg).. Now consider the following:


Pippen and Grant < McHale, Parish, DJ

Pippen and Grant < Kareem, Worthy

Pippen and Grant < Wade, Bosh, Allen

Pippen and Grant < Shaq, Medvedenko

Pippen and Grant < Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi


Is there anyone else?... MJ slays Bird, Magic, Shaq and also lesser players Lebron and Duncan.. :bowdown:

You are ignoring Grant's overwhelming IMPACT, which clearly showed in both '94 and '95, and withOUT MJ.

As for the rest...MJ never beat any of the great teams from the 80's. So, when comparing Kareem and Worthy, keep in mind that they were facing McHale and Parish...and the likes of Dr. J and Toney to back up a peak Moses.

And yes, I would take Pippen and Grant over Parker and Ginobili, and the broken down Wade and career loser Bosh.

As for Shaq...Medvedenko? BTW, Shaq was still LA's best player in his last season there. And if Kobe hadn't shot his team out of the Finals, he might have won another ring.

[LAZERUSS]

Remember, Lebron's 3rd option was 10-time all-star Chris Bosh (19/9 career avg), compared to MJ's 3rd option of 1-time all-star Horace Grant (11/8 career avg).. Now consider the following:


Pippen and Grant < McHale, Parish, DJ

Pippen and Grant < Kareem, Worthy

Pippen and Grant < Wade, Bosh, Allen

Pippen and Grant < Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi

Pippen and Grant < Shaq, Medvedenko


Is there anyone else?... MJ slays Bird, Magic, Shaq and also lesser players Lebron and Duncan.. :bowdown:


BTW, please find some examples where those players listed, went 55-27 without their best player.

[jstern]

I remember back in 94 or so, MSG was a paid channel, so during the time outs they used to show the coach coaching, etc. I somehow remember that, and it was sooo much better than going to commercial.

[3ball]

You are ignoring Grant's overwhelming IMPACT, which clearly showed in both '94 and '95, and withOUT MJ.


Grant achieved his maximum stats alongside MJ.. He got 14/10 in 1992 with MJ, while his career high was only 15/11 without MJ in 1994.. So it's a mathematical fact that Grant played at 97% capacity alongside MJ.

MJ's off-ball style didn't reduce the stats of his teammates like Lebron's ball-dominance does.. Remember, it wasn't just Grant - Pippen and Kukoc's numbers barely changed as well.

MJ's optimal off-ball style allowed him to add his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there without reducing it - this allowed the team to maximize production and reach it's true ceiling, which prevented underachievement..

This is why MJ had the goat impact: 3-peat dynasty to 2nd round exit team, back to 3-peat dynasty... There's never been a bigger impact in the history of the game.

[3ball]

please find some examples where a team went 55-27 without their best player.


Lakers won 60 games after Kareem retired in 1989.. Btw, I don't need to find any other examples - other than Kareem and MJ, there's never been a team where the best player retired while everyone was in their uber-prime, after leading the team to a championship (in this MJ's case, a 3-peat).
.

[Rocketswin2013]

Lakers won 60 games after Kareem retired in 1989

:oldlol: Kareem ****ing sucked in his last year.

[3ball]

:oldlol: Kareem ****ing sucked in his last year.


Lakers won 60 without Kareem.. guess they didn't need him for their rings.. They could've replaced him with Pete Myers and they win SIXTY.. :confusedshrug:

Here are the facts - MJ put the Bulls in the best position literally ever in 1994 - defending 3-peat champions.. How good would the Bulls have been in 1994, if MJ had retired in 1989 instead?... Let's see:

Without MJ in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would never have beaten Cleveland with "the shot" or faced Detroit in ECF..

So think about the scenario going into the 1990 season: without MJ, the Bulls are in lottery... With MJ, the Bulls are ECF and just 1 year away from the start of their 1st three-peat.. That's some Matrix blue-red pill shit.

But Jordan stuck with the team - he didn't quit on his guys and team-hop... By staying with his supporting cast the entire time, the level of mental strength and teamwork developed is on entirely different level than Lebron's team-hopping could ever generate.

Keep in mind that every Bulls championship team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer of all time (career leader in PPG for RS, PO and Finals).. Therefore, it's a mathematical fact that MJ had the least scoring help of all time..

So when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers that could score a lot of points, it was because of the superior strategy, execution, teamwork and mental ability accumulated from going through wars for rings alongside MJ.
.

[Asukal]

Wilt couldn't get it done even with mr Clutch by his side. :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt couldn't get it done even with mr Clutch by his side. :oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Obviously you have zero knowledge on the topic, but for your information...

Chamberlain carried a PATHETIC West to his only ring in the '72 post-season. First, he stuffed a peak Kareem in the last four games of the '72 WCF's, then he absolutely crushed the Knicks and their five HOFers in the Finals (19-23 .600), which included a clinching game five win in which Chamberlain, with one badly sprained hand, and the other fractured, put up a 24 point game, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds (the entire NY team had 39 BTW), with 8 blocks...n route to winning the FMVP. Oh, and how did West do in that series? He shot .325 from the field, and was blown away by Frazier.

[LAZERUSS]

Lakers won 60 games after Kareem retired in 1989.. Btw, I don't need to find any other examples - other than Kareem and MJ, there's never been a team where the best player retired while everyone was in their uber-prime, after leading the team to a championship (in this MJ's case, a 3-peat).
.

Damn, you're right. How could I forget MAGIC carrying his teams to to 63 and 58 wins, and then taking a rapidly declining, and injury-wracked team to the Finals in '91?

Magic= GOAT.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Of course, that still wasn't the correct answer. Why? Because MAGIC was LA's BEST player since '81. Again, find me a player who took a team to a 55-27 record, without their BEST player? Unless you don't believe that MJ was Chicago's best player in '93?

The equivalent would have been Worthy carrying those Laker teams to 63 and 58 wins...withOUT Magic. We saw what Worthy did without Magic... 43-39 and then 39-43.

[97 bulls]

Lakers won 60 games after Kareem retired in 1989.. Btw, I don't need to find any other examples - other than Kareem and MJ, there's never been a team where the best player retired while everyone was in their uber-prime, after leading the team to a championship (in this MJ's case, a 3-peat).
.
Lol. Kareem was the Lakers best player in 89? Unbelievable

[LAZERUSS]

Lol. Kareem was the Lakers best player in 89? Unbelievable

I beat you to it.

And yes...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

The bottom line...

Pippen (and either Grant or Rodman) don't get nearly the credit they deserve for those six rings.

Again, MJ had, BY FAR, the mos talented supporting casts in the watered-down 90's, and would have been ringless without them.

[97 bulls]

I beat you to it.

And yes...

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Lol.

[LAZERUSS]

Lol.

:cheers:

[Mr Feeny]

Phil benches his best player and still wins the game. :bowdown:

http://share.gifyoutube.com/vWQNL6.gif

Johnny Back told Jackson "Scottie doesn't want to go back in!!! What do we do now??" Jackson replied "F**k him" then went ahead with the Kukoc play and Toni hit the shot that won the game. Backstage, the entire Bulls roster starting with Bill Cartright absolutely GRILLED Pippen, telling him that he's selfish to his face.

I cant believe it's been 21 years:oldlol:

[Marchesk]

***** did cable even exist in 1994?

Yes cable began in 1948, and as a side note, video conferencing existed as far back as 1968:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/f351e6835110214dd7ae7752a69d99a8/tumblr_n2gln9Le0P1sbf1mqo1_400.gif

[julizaver]

This was the infamous play where Phil Jackson wrote up the final play for Kukoc instead of Pippen at the end of Game 3 of 1994 ECSF.. Full description of Pippen's meltdown by Ernie Johnson below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m23s


Can you imagine the anguish Pippen must have felt???... All year long, he'd busted his ass to employ MJ's lessons and show that he could subsist on his own.. For his efforts, he'd managed to average a full 0.5 PPG more without MJ in the lineup.. But nonetheless, when push came to shove, Phil didn't trust him in the clutch.

Amazingly, Kukoc hit the walk-off "Ray Allen" to win Game 3, and save the Bulls from going down 3-0.

Can you imagine if Kukoc misses that shot and the Bulls get swept??.. We'd still be talking about the greatest gaffe anyone ever made in the clutch - indeed, Pippen, with MJ living rent-free, lost his shit in the 1994 ECF.
.


Aside from agendas. But Kukoc had already 3 buzzer beaters during that season and the comentator said it, so Phil had some reason behind. Not to mention Kukoc is taller and better long distance shooter then Pippen.
And not to mention Pippen's jealosy upon Tony for earning twice as more money then Pippen. Pippen doesn't like that and he outplayed Kukoc badly when Kukoc came for his first training sessions with the Bulls. And remember the first game of Croatia vs Dream team in Barcelona where Scottie and MJ we all over Kukoc ...
Besides all of that Kukoc was a terific player offensively and proven at the international level - he just lacked the intensity of MJ and Pippen as their competitive mentality. He was one of my favourite players, but it was not fare for Pippen to earn so much less than Tony at the time.

[Mr Feeny]

Aside from agendas. But Kukoc had already 3 buzzer beaters during that season and the comentator said it, so Phil had some reason behind. Not to mention Kukoc is taller and better long distance shooter then Pippen.
And not to mention Pippen's jealosy upon Tony for earning twice as more money then Pippen. Pippen doesn't like that and he outplayed Kukoc badly when Kukoc came for his first training sessions with the Bulls. And remember the first game of Croatia vs Dream team in Barcelona where Scottie and MJ we all over Kukoc ...
Besides all of that Kukoc was a terific player offensively and proven at the international level - he just lacked the intensity of MJ and Pippen as their competitive mentality. He was one of my favourite players, but it was not fare for Pippen to earn so much less than Tony at the time.

Tbf that's Jerry Krause's problem, not Toni's. Jackson, Jordan and Pippen all treated him like dirt in the beginning (especially Pippen which you rightly pointed out had a jealousy issue stemming from lower wages and and a relative lack of recognition from his GM, compared to an unproven (in his eyes) Euro.

[LAZERUSS]

Aside from agendas. But Kukoc had already 3 buzzer beaters during that season and the comentator said it, so Phil had some reason behind. Not to mention Kukoc is taller and better long distance shooter then Pippen.
And not to mention Pippen's jealosy upon Tony for earning twice as more money then Pippen. Pippen doesn't like that and he outplayed Kukoc badly when Kukoc came for his first training sessions with the Bulls. And remember the first game of Croatia vs Dream team in Barcelona where Scottie and MJ we all over Kukoc ...
Besides all of that Kukoc was a terific player offensively and proven at the international level - he just lacked the intensity of MJ and Pippen as their competitive mentality. He was one of my favourite players, but it was not fare for Pippen to earn so much less than Tony at the time.

Kukoc was an amazing athlete, too. He was doing dunks from the FT line.

[3ball]

Aside from agendas. But Kukoc had already 3 buzzer beaters during that season and the comentator said it, so Phil had some reason behind.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m23s

No, as you can see in the time-stamped youtube above, the commentor said Pippen had just butchered the previous play with the airball, so Phil was iffy on Pippen because of that..

He expected Pippen to butcher it again on the final play.. He knew his player - he knew Pippen didn't have a steady hand.

That's why Kukoc had hit all the GW's during the season.. Pippen had 1, maybe.
.

[3ball]

in the watered-down 90's.

MJ had, BY FAR, the mos talented supporting casts


The 90's had 30 teams just like today - don't make me rape you on this topic like I did before when you didn't know the CBA turned into the D-league.

So you're wrong there... Which brings the rest of your post into question.. By far the most talented casts?.. It's the opposite, which is why they called the Bulls a 1-man team and his supporting cast the "Jordanaires"..

Oh, and the "Jordan Rules".. That wouldn't be necessary unless he was a one-man team..





Again, MJ had, BY FAR, the mos talented supporting casts


Isiah's 1990 & 1991 supporting cast > Jordan's

1991 Worthy/Green/Scott/Divac/Perkins > Pippen/Grant/Paxson/Cartwright

1996 Gary Payton's: Kemp/Schrempf/McMillain >= MJ's supporting cast


Many other teams also had far better supporting casts than the Bulls: 1993 Suns, 1992 Knicks, Shaq's 1996 Magic and 1998 Lakers, 1998 Bucks, 1998 Pacers, 1992 Blazers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11425881&postcount=29).

[julizaver]

Tbf that's Jerry Krause's problem, not Toni's. Jackson, Jordan and Pippen all treated him like dirt in the beginning (especially Pippen which you rightly pointed out had a jealousy issue stemming from lower wages and and a relative lack of recognition from his GM, compared to an unproven (in his eyes) Euro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2k2yTOpcQ8

In Europe he was 3 times player of the year prior to joining Bulls - MVP at 1990 WC and MVP at 1991 EC - but I think that during his first years with Bulls playing alongside Pippen and Jordan it took some of his let's say leadership away. He touched the ball far less than in Europe but his sacrifice paid him with 3 rings. Had he played in another NBA teams during his prime he would had the better individual career/stats but without the rings.

[oarabbus]

tl;dr: Jordan's teammates were beasts

[dubeta]

Remember when Pippen went 1-9?



....


Me neither





NEXT

[buddha]

who the **** was that analyst with the spider web on his head?

[Tarik One]

He went full retard long before that when he signed that ridiculously long contract...

[LAZERUSS]

The 90's had 30 teams just like today - don't make me rape you on this topic like I did before when you didn't know the CBA turned into the D-league.

So you're wrong there... Which brings the rest of your post into question.. By far the most talented casts?.. It's the opposite, which is why they called the Bulls a 1-man team and his supporting cast the "Jordanaires"..

Oh, and the "Jordan Rules".. That wouldn't be necessary unless he was a one-man team..



Isiah's 1990 & 1991 supporting cast > Jordan's

1991 Worthy/Green/Scott/Divac/Perkins > Pippen/Grant/Paxson/Cartwright

1996 Gary Payton's: Kemp/Schrempf/McMillain >= MJ's supporting cast


Many other teams also had far better supporting casts than the Bulls: 1993 Suns, 1992 Knicks, Shaq's 1996 Magic and 1998 Lakers, 1998 Bucks, 1998 Pacers, 1992 Blazers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11425881&postcount=29).

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Pure speculation on the '90 and '91 Pistons, my friend. We do KNOW that both of those teams, particularly the '91 team...was on the decline (and really, the '91 team was just a shell.)

Magic's '91 Lakers? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Magic somehow dragged that rapidly declining and INJURY-PLAGUED group to that Finals. And this was NOWHERE near a PEAK Magic, who destroyed both MJ and Bird in his '87 season. Aside from Magic, there was not ONE single player on that Laker team that was better than Pippen and Grant. BTW, the next two seasons AFTER Magic... 43-39 and 39-43.

The Sonics of '96? I would take Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, and Rodman in a HEART-BEAT over that way over-rated group. BUT, I will say that PAYTON REALLY LIMITED MJ in that series. But, player-for-player...well, let me ask you his...what was the HOF margin? I'll answer it for you...including MJ...3-1.

There was not a season in the 90's in which an MJ-less Bulls team would not have challenged for the title. That was PROVEN in '94. Think about that...withOUT MJ...and they literally were a few points away from a title. And, I'm sorry, but MJ's second three-peat group was considerably MORE talented than his first.

Now, go ahead and inundate this board with more useless gifs.

[LAZERUSS]

Regarding MAGIC...


Now let's actually put in a PEAK Magic, and not some way-past-his-prime Magic that carried a shell of what had been a dynasty in the 80's, past a peak Blazer team in the WCF's, and then up against a peak Jordan (and with Pippen being the one to slow him down), with his stacked roster that wiped out Magic's rapidly declining, and injury-plagued roster in the '91 Finals.

How about Magic at HIS PEAK, in 86-87.

First, MJ vs. Magic...

MJ: 37.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, .429 FG%, .875 FT%, .474 TS%
Magic: 29.0 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 12.5 apg, .500 FG%, .933 FT%, .563 TS%.
Oh, and 2-0 W-L


MJ vs. Boston in regular season, and Magic vs. Boston in regular season:

MJ: 29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, .428 FG%, .820 FT%
Magic: 35.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 9.0 rpg, .556 FG%, .864 FT%


How about MJ vs, Boston, and Magic vs. Boston in that same post-season:

MJ: 35.7 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 6.0 apg, .417 FG%, .817 FT%, .529 TS%
Magic: 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, .541 FG%, .960 FT%, .590 TS%

Oh, and MJ's Bulls vs. Boston in the playoffs... 0-3
Magic's Lakers vs. Boston in the Finals... 4-2

BTW, MJ in his '87 season averaged a career high 37.1 ppg. And yet a PEAK Magic was FAR greater.


Another point.

Magic's Laker played teams like the Sixers from the first half of the 80's, the Bad Boys from the last half of the 80's, and the Celtics for the entire decade of the 80's. He took his team to EIGHT Finals, and won FIVE rings in that decade, and beat the peak Sixers twice, the peak Bad Boys once, and the peak Celtics, twice.

Compare that with MJ's 90's run.

He finally beat a washed-up Pistons team, and then a washed-up Lakers team in the '91 playoffs and Finals.

He beat a 57-25 Blazers team in the '92 Finals, with the same roster that somehow Magic beat the year before when they went 63-19.

He beat a defenseless Suns team in the '93 Finals.

Oh, and how good was his rosters in the 90's? His '94 team, with the legendary Pete Myers replacing him, went 55-27, which was deceptive, since Pippen missed 10 games, as well as other teammates missing games. They could easily have won 60+ games. And it was too bad, too, since they did not have HCA against a 56-26 Knicks team that they took to a close and controversial seven game series...the same Knicks team that lost a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them BTW.)

Then, they basically replaced Grant with Rodman, and Paxson with Kerr, and won three more titles.

MJ's '96 Bulls beat a Sonics team with Payton and Kemp, and not much else, in a series in which MJ averaged 27 ppg on a .415 FG%.

Then MJ's Bulls beat the Stockton-Malone Jazz in two straight Finals, in series in which MJ shot .455 and .427.


Think about this...

Was there ANY team that MJ faced in the 90's that was even remotely close to the Sixers, Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers in the 80's?

I can safely make this claim...MJ's 90's Bulls don't go 6-8 in the 80's. Hell, they might not have won a ring in that decade.

MAGIC had a legitimate claim as the GOAT.

[GIF REACTION]

It's common knowledge the expansion teams in the 90's diluted the quality of teams

The 70's and 80's were far superior in terms of quality teams. You needed 3-4 HOFers to contend in both those eras.

[Dragonyeuw]

That was the worst toupee I've ever seen in my life. :biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

It's common knowledge the expansion teams in the 90's diluted the quality of teams

The 70's and 80's were far superior in terms of quality teams. You needed 3-4 HOFers to contend in both those eras.

Agreed.

Move MJ's 90's Bulls into the 80's, and he isn't going 6-8 (or 6-10), and may not have won ANY rings.

[GIF REACTION]

Agreed.

Move MJ's 90's Bulls into the 80's, and he isn't going 6-8 (or 6-10), and may not have won ANY rings.
And people can't attest the quality of talent in the 70's and 80's because prominent players from those retrospective eras ACTUALLY overlapped MAJORITY of the prominent players from the 90's. It's funny how people try to demean Wilt and his dominance, when he pretty much was even with a prime Kareeem whose career overlapped MAJORITY of the great centers of the 90's... And he had plenty of dominant performances in his elder playing years against those players. Like when he dropped that scoring performance on Hakeem.

Moses Malone was the man when Barkley first arrived

Kareem was the man when Magic first arrived

And so forth

[LAZERUSS]

And people can't attest the quality of talent in the 70's and 80's because prominent players from those retrospective eras ACTUALLY overlapped MAJORITY of the prominent players from the 90's. It's funny how people try to demean Wilt and his dominance, when he pretty much was even with a prime Kareeem whose career overlapped MAJORITY of the great centers of the 90's... And he had plenty of dominant performances in his elder playing years against those players. Like when he dropped that scoring performance on Hakeem.

Moses Malone was the man when Barkley first arrived

Kareem was the man when Magic first arrived

And so forth

Yep...and I have it said it before, but this "evolution" nonsense doesn't explain these events...

as an example...

When Magic and Bird entered the NBA in 1980, and for the next several seasons...

The first four MVPs in the 80's...all played in the 70's (hell one of them played in the 60's.) The first five scoring champions in the decade of the 80's..all played in the 70's. The first six rebounding champions in the decade of the 80's...all played in the 70's. And the first five FG% champions...all played in the 70's.

I would challenge anyone here to give me a season in which thy honestly believe that this was the season in which we witnessed the "modern" NBA, and I will provide a TON of examples of players who dominated in that same season, who were playing the year BEFORE.

[3ball]

1. 1990 Bulls lost in seven games to the Pistons in the ECF's.

MJ's numbers DECLINED vs. Pistons from his regular season NBA numbers. However, his teammates played played poorly, and the Pistons won the series.


Jordan's stats vs. Detroit were 32/7/6 on 47%, which is goat for anyone facing one of the best defenses in history, especially a defense entirely designed around stopping him (Jordan Rules).

Pippen's stats were 16.6 ppg on 42.6%, including 2 points on 1-10 in game 7, where he admitted the pressure got to him:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s


Pippen's epic choke cost the Bulls the 1990 championship - the Pistons only needed 6 easy games to beat Portland, but needed 7 tight games and the Pippen choke to beat Bulls.. The gap between Pistons/Blazers ORtg was much larger than the razor thin gap between Pistons/Bulls.





2. 1991 Bulls.

They swept the Pistons. How? The Pistons were crumbling


The Pistons weren't crumbling in 1991 - they still had a 104.6 DRtg, which was better than their DRtg in 1989 when they won the championship.. They also had 6 guys averaging over 11 ppg, compared to only 3 guys for the Bulls - the Pistons were still more talented and far deeper from top to bottom.

However, Isiah missed a lot of games in RS, so the Pistons only won 50 games - but he was healthy for the playoffs and the defense was the same as always - everyone was producing at the same levels as other seasons... But they simply weren't the better team in 1991... They weren't the better team in 1990 either, but Pippen's choke cost the Bulls in 1990.





And what was the OTHER reason the Bulls beat Pistons in 1991 ECF??.. PIPPEN and GRANT came up HUGE.

And how did MJ do?. As always his numbers declined...albeit his efficiency finally went up.


PIPPEN. 1990 ECF: 23/8/5 on 48%
JORDAN 1990 ECF: 30/5/7 on 54%


This was 1 of the 2 series in their playoff CAREERS where MJ didn't score at least 10 ppg more than Pippen.. He still averaged 7 ppg more, with more assists, and far better efficiency.

As for Horace Grant - Grant's performance in 1991 ECF was his typical pedestrian 12/8.. During his best years alongside Jordan (1991-1993), Grant averaged 13/9 in regular season and 11/8 in playoffs..

He was an ordinary, 11/8 play-finisher and a simple dunker.. He was never an all-star and only made one 2nd team all-defense while on the Bulls.. He never garnered an iota of defensive attention and no one thought for a nanosecond to let him create his own shot.. Literally half the league's 3rd options were better than him.





Pippen and Grant were also big in the 1991 Finals, and against a rapidly declining Showtime team that had no business even getting to the Finals.


The Lakers absolutely belonged in the Finals - they won 58 games in 1991 and were the 2-seed out West.. And Magic was runner-up for league MVP.. He averaged exactly 19/7/13 on 62% TS in both regular season and Finals.

Worthy was All-NBA in 1991 too - he was the Lakers' leading scorer in regular season (21 ppg on 49.2%) and Finals (19.3 ppg on 47%, while playing 41 MPG).

And the Lakers had far better personnel after Magic and Worthy:


.........................RS and Finals......................................RS and Finals

Sam Perkins........14/7 and 17/8 ...........Horace Grant.......13/8 and 15/8

Vlade Divac ........11/8 and 18/9............ John Paxson........ 9/2 and 13/2

AC Green............. 9/6 and 6/6.............. Cartwright.......... 9/5 and 9/6

Byron Scott......... 15/4 and 6/3............. Armstrong........... 9/3 and 2/1


Lakers had better talent, but when you have MJ dominating the Finals like no one else ever has, (the GOAT destroying Magic on biggest stage), you don't need nearly as much help..





3. 1993. Bulls go 57-25, and eke out a title in the Finals.


The list below shows every Bulls player that played more than 10 mpg in 1993 (excluding MJ).. Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong were the only players who played more than 20 MPG and averaged over 6 PPG:


.....................PPG.......MPG

Pippen............18.6...... 38.6
Grant.............13.2....... 35.6
Armstrong.......12.3.......30.4
Cartwright........5.6....... 19.9
S Williams........5.9........19.3
Paxson............ 4.2........17.5
R McCray......... 3.5........15.9
S King............. 5.4....... 13.9
W Perdue......... 4.7........13.9
T Tucker.......... 5.2........13.2
D Walker......... 2.6........13.1


Look how the Bulls teams were constructed top to bottom - it's pretty unique.. The 1993 supporting cast only had 3 guys (Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg - the #4 thru #12 guys all played LESS than 20 mpg and averaged less than 6 ppg..

The Bulls relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.. There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players are anywhere near this bad.





The '94 Bulls then went 55-27...which was deceptive. Why?

Because Pippen and Grant missed a combined 22 games. Had they played in every game, they easily would have won 60+ games.


They don't win 60 if every other team in the league gets to be injury-free too - that levels the playing field.





Oh, and Pippen was now considered a Top-FIVE player in the league...which, he was.


Not based on stats or performance.. The only reason he was top 4 in MVP voting is because his value was boosted by having a weaker supporting cast.

But no one in their right mind would say Pippen could match 1994/prime David Robinson, Hakeem, Barkley or Malone... or Shaq (29/13/2.5 blk)... or Ewing (25/11/2.7).... or Alonzo (21/10/3.0).

All these guys would laugh you out of the room if you said Pippen was better, and their stats destroy Pippen's... Don't overrate 22 ppg on 49%.

The Bulls didn't win based on that kind of 1st option production, nor did they win based on Grant/Armstrong's very average production at the 2nd/3rd option spots - this means they won based on meticulous execution and superior chemistry, both acquired from 3-peating with MJ.





Ok, the '94 Bulls lost a close and controversial seven game series against 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's. In fact, they were ONE PLAY AWAY FROM WINNING THAT SERIES IN SIX GAMES....

And the Knicks went on to lost to Rockets in Game 7 by 4 points.. In a series that they outscored Houston (just as Chicago had outscored NY in the ECSF's.)


The 1994 Bulls would've gone down 0-3 to the Knicks and been swept if Kukoc doesn't hit the miracle walk-off in Game 3 to adrenalize the team with relief and a 2nd life.

And we all know that Pippen famously sat out the final play because Phil called the play for Kukoc..

Phil was just being smart, since Kukoc hit 3 game-winners (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=2m05s) in the RS, which is which is more than Pippen had in his entire career.. Ironically, given Pippen's horrible track record on GW's and clutch play, if Phil lets Pippen take the last shot, they almost certainly lose that game and go down 0-3.





Given their close series with the Knicks (who barely lost to the champion Rockets) the Bulls were NOT an "ordinary second round losing team." They were actually a CHAMPIONSHIP contending team.


The 1994 Bulls almost went down 0-3 in the 2nd Round and eventually lost because they had weak talent - their #1 option (Pippen) wasn't a top five 1st option (Shaq, Barkley, Malone, David Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Alonzo were all better, among others), while BJ Armstrong and 11/8 Grant were inferior 2nd and 3rd options than literally half the league.

And of course, we know the rest of the team was marginal bench players that barely played or scored... Given this weak level of talent, it's clear the 1994 Bulls achieved based on the 3-peat chemistry accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.





1995. In addition to not having Jordan, this team no longer had the ELITE PF, Grant. TWO KEY players from their '93 title team. Somehow, Pippen, a top 5 player in the league, WILLED this roster to a 34-31 record. Pippen could carry an MJ-less and Grant-less roster to a winning record, but Jordan never had a winning season without PIPPEN


You're bragging about a .500 record?... Many players worse than Pippen have led teams to .500 records, and they didn't have championship experience, teammates with championship experience, or good offensive and defensive strategy.

Also, the Bulls' 1995 roster improved in various ways - starting SG Ron Harper was brought on board, and Kukoc's 2nd year stats were 16 ppg on 51%, compared to 10 ppg on 43% in 1994.

And again, Pippen and his 21/8/5 was not a top 5 player in 1995.. All these guys were better:

Robinson (28/11/3.1 blk)
Shaquille (29/11/2.4)
Hakeem (28/11/3.4)
Ewing (24/11/2.0)
Alonzo (21/10/2.9)
Barkley (23/11/4 and 25.0 PER)
Malone (27/11/4 and 25.1 PER)
Stockton (15 ppg and 12 apg, 65% ts, 23.3 PER)
Penny, KJ, Payton, and others were also better.


CONTINUED....
.

[LAZERUSS]

^^^^ Bold-faced lie - Magic was runner-up for league MVP in 1991.. He averaged 19/13/7.0 on 62% TS... These were his exact stats in the Finals as well.

Worthy was All-NBA in 1991, and led the Lakers in scoring with 21/5/4 on 49.2% FG.. Worthy was the leading scorer in the Finals as well - 19 PPG on 47%, while playing 40 MPG for Game 1-4.

And the Lakers had deluxe versions of Spurs-type role players - Sam Perkins (14/8 in RS) averaged 17/8 in the 1991 Finals, while Vlade Divac (11/8) averaged 18/9.. The Lakers still had Byron Scott too (15 ppg).

This FAR better support than MJ had in 1991: Pippen (20/7/6), Grant (15/8), Paxson (13/2), Cartwright (9/5).. Not even close to Magic's supporting cast.. But when you have MJ's 32/11/7, 2.8 stl, 1.4 blk on 56%, you don't need nearly as much help.



90's Magic had a better supporting cast than MJ, as shown above, but 80's Magic had the greatest supporting cast of all time - GOAT center, All-Star PF, HOF SF, prime Byron Scott (20 ppg, athletic, 3-and-D SG), DPOY Michael Cooper, and other solid role players Kurt Rambis and Mycal Thompson (10 ppg).

That's the GOAT supporting cast.

I already shredded this nonsense earlier. Yes, Magic was still an elite player in '91. But, he was NOWHERE NEAR a PEAK Magic.

And no, that shell of what the Lakers had in the 90's was FAR INFERIOR to what MJ had in '91. Not even close. Worthy was just a shell (his effiency had fallen off the cliff), and on top of that, he was hobbled. Look up the rest of that Laker roster...to a man, considerably worse than their year's in the 80's with Magic.

That Magic could take that pure shit roster (which would go 43-39 and 39-43 withOUT him the next two years) past a PEAK 63-19 Blazers team, and into the Finals against a STACKED Bulls roster led by a PEAK MJ, was just an amazing feat. Of course, Magic was the only player in the history of the NBA that was capable of taking shit rosters to 60 wins.

[LAZERUSS]

Again for 3Balls benefit (since he loves to re-post over-and-over)


Now let's actually put in a PEAK Magic, and not some way-past-his-prime Magic that carried a shell of what had been a dynasty in the 80's, past a peak Blazer team in the WCF's, and then up against a peak Jordan (and with Pippen being the one to slow him down), with his stacked roster that wiped out Magic's rapidly declining, and injury-plagued roster in the '91 Finals.

How about Magic at HIS PEAK, in 86-87.

First, MJ vs. Magic...

MJ: 37.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, .429 FG%, .875 FT%, .474 TS%
Magic: 29.0 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 12.5 apg, .500 FG%, .933 FT%, .563 TS%.
Oh, and 2-0 W-L


MJ vs. Boston in regular season, and Magic vs. Boston in regular season:

MJ: 29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, .428 FG%, .820 FT%
Magic: 35.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 9.0 rpg, .556 FG%, .864 FT%


How about MJ vs, Boston, and Magic vs. Boston in that same post-season:

MJ: 35.7 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 6.0 apg, .417 FG%, .817 FT%, .529 TS%
Magic: 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, .541 FG%, .960 FT%, .590 TS%

Oh, and MJ's Bulls vs. Boston in the playoffs... 0-3
Magic's Lakers vs. Boston in the Finals... 4-2

BTW, MJ in his '87 season averaged a career high 37.1 ppg. And yet a PEAK Magic was FAR greater.


Another point.

Magic's Laker played teams like the Sixers from the first half of the 80's, the Bad Boys from the last half of the 80's, and the Celtics for the entire decade of the 80's. He took his team to EIGHT Finals, and won FIVE rings in that decade, and beat the peak Sixers twice, the peak Bad Boys once, and the peak Celtics, twice.

Compare that with MJ's 90's run.

He finally beat a washed-up Pistons team, and then a washed-up Lakers team in the '91 playoffs and Finals.

He beat a 57-25 Blazers team in the '92 Finals, with the same roster that somehow Magic beat the year before when they went 63-19.

He beat a defenseless Suns team in the '93 Finals.

Oh, and how good was his rosters in the 90's? His '94 team, with the legendary Pete Myers replacing him, went 55-27, which was deceptive, since Pippen missed 10 games, as well as other teammates missing games. They could easily have won 60+ games. And it was too bad, too, since they did not have HCA against a 56-26 Knicks team that they took to a close and controversial seven game series...the same Knicks team that lost a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them BTW.)

Then, they basically replaced Grant with Rodman, and Paxson with Kerr, and won three more titles.

MJ's '96 Bulls beat a Sonics team with Payton and Kemp, and not much else, in a series in which MJ averaged 27 ppg on a .415 FG%.

Then MJ's Bulls beat the Stockton-Malone Jazz in two straight Finals, in series in which MJ shot .455 and .427.


Think about this...

Was there ANY team that MJ faced in the 90's that was even remotely close to the Sixers, Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers in the 80's?

I can safely make this claim...MJ's 90's Bulls don't go 6-8 in the 80's. Hell, they might not have won a ring in that decade.

MAGIC had a legitimate claim as the GOAT.

THAT was a PEAK Magic...and carrying a shell in Kareem.

MAGIC...GOAT.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, Magic with MJ on those Laker teams in the 80's and I would have to believe that they would have fared considerably worse. There would have been no way that Worthy and Kareem would accept taking 10 FGAs a game, while MJ was launching 30.

Furthermore, we KNOW that Magic ELEVATED the play of his teammates. Before he arrived...a barely .500 team that badly under-achieved, and was playoff cannon-fodder.

Magic arrives...and boom... a 60-22 record and a championship.

Kareem retires after the '89 season (and LA had gone 57-25 that year), and an immediate IMPROVEMENT to a 63-19 record (62-17 with Magic BTW.)

Magic carries that declining and injury-plagued roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to his NINTH Finals in his LAST season.

Magic retires...and wallah...the Lakers immediately return back to the mediocrity in which he found them.

[3ball]

.
........CONTINUED FROM LAST POST





In round 2, the Bulls are beaten 4-2, by a team with Horace GRANT, who put up a staggering 18-11 .647 series. Clearly, it is GRANT who was a KEY piece to Shaq's Magic.


Even though Grant had achieved his career-high in that series (which every player does at some point), he was the 4th option on that Magic team, behind Shaq, Penny and Nick Anderson..

The only reason the Magic won was due to Jordan's rust, as evidenced by his ridiculously low PER of 22.1 (same as his Wizard days), 109 ORtg (11 points less than his career average), and 0.167 ws/48 (barely half his career average of 0.274).

However, the most obvious evidence of Jordan's rust was his uncharacteristic TO's in the clutch.. MJ turned the ball over twice on final possessions in the Orlando series - he's only done that 1 other time in his entire career!!!.. Anyone who watched him in the clutch vs. Orlando realized he wasn't the same player.. Even his normal confident swagger was missing.. You were kind of scratching your head like, "is that the same guy?"





Let's replace PETE MYERS, who wasn't even a Top-20 SG in '94, with even an average SG. Likely a title. But how about replacing him with Reggie Miller, or Joe Dumars, or Mitch Richmond. Does anyone here honestly believe that one of those guys would NOT have made a HUGE difference?


None of those guys would've allowed the Bulls to beat the Knicks, Pacers, and Rockets in 1994... None of those guys have the impact to improve a team by 3 series wins.

And even if you want to hypothesize about someone like Kobe replacing Jordan - it's a pointless exercise because Kobe couldn't achieve the stats MJ needed to 3-peat in the first place (35/7/7/50).. Kobe's 25/5/5/45 wouldn't cut it, so he wouldn't be in 4-peat position by 1994.

So it's pointless to imagine what other players would do with Jordan's already-made championship teams, since no one can achieve the stats MJ needed to win those championships in the first place.

Btw, if you think Dumars and 15-18 ppg would've won the championship for the Bulls in 1994, then Jordan would've won the 2007 Finals EASILY, since he would've averaged 30+ vs. Spurs.. See how biased you are??.. You're eager to use that logic to say the 94' Bulls could've won 3 additional series, but won't apply the same logic to say Jordan would've won 1 series.... (which btw, he would have (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11989539&postcount=140)).





6. 1996. Chicago management took one look at the disappointing '95 season and realized...hey, we can't win without an ELITE PF.


This is factually incorrect - if a power forward isn't an all-star OR all-defense, then they aren't elite.. MJ won all 6 rings without an all-star PF, and 4 of the 6 years he didn't have an all-defense PF.

Horace Grant was never an all-star alongside Jordan, nor was he all-defense, except 2nd team in 1993... So MJ's first 3-peat was won without an all-star or all-defense caliber PF..

In Grant's best years alongside MJ (1991-1993), he only averaged 13/9 in regular season and 11/8 in playoffs.. He was an ordinary, 11/8 play-finisher and simple dunker.. He never garnered an iota of defensive attention and no one thought for a nanosecond to let him create his own shot.. Literally half the league's 3rd options were better than him.. Compare him to fellow play-finisher and statistical peer, Tristan Thompson.





So, they went out and grabbed HOFer Dennis Rodman.


As for Rodman - during his time on the Bulls, he was 34-36 years old and he wasn't an all-star either (he hadn't made an all-star team since 1992) - nor did Rodman make the all-defense team in 1997 or 1998.. So similar to the first 3-peat, MJ won his second 3-peat without an all-star or all-defense caliber PF as well.

Rodman only averaged 4/8 in the 1997 playoffs and 1998 Finals.. He wasn't even a starter in the 1998 playoffs or Finals - Phil benched him for bad play... Rodman's last good year was 1996 - by 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed-up garbage he was for the 1999 Lakers, but no one noticed because the Bulls were 3-peating.





The 90's were a watered down era, here most teams only had one great player, and possibly two. There were no teams like the early 80's Sixers, or late 80's Pistons, or the 80's Celtics and Lakers. Not even close.


Other than the 4 teams you mentioned, there isn't a single 80's team with more than 1 or 2 great players... So your mention of 4 teams that span an entire decade is sheer randomness and not representative of the league's talent level.

The 80's were obviously top-heavy - after those 4 teams, there was a far better talent in the 90's overall.. It's not even close... Go through and list all the best players from each position in the 80's and 90's - you won't have to finish - you'll realize right away that the 90's equals or exceeds the talent in ANY decade.

Btw, the 90's had at least 6 teams with a "Big 3", which means 3+ meaningful, multiple time all-stars on the same team (no one-off all-stars):

brad daughtery - mark price - larry nance
david robinson - tim duncan - sean elliot
shawn kemp - gary payton - detlef schrempf
shaq - kobe bryant - eddie jones - nick van exel
hakeem olajuwon - clyde drexler - charles barkley
tim hardaway - chris mullin - chris webber


I don't think any other decade is doing better than this.





Now, let's remove the best player from every other team in the 90's...guys like Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, K. Malone, Barkley, etc...

How many rings do the Bulls win without Jordan in that scenario?.. I say they win 6..


The premise you're advocating doesn't work - if Jordan wasn't on the team when Pippen and Grant were rookies in 1988, the Bulls wouldn't be any good heading into the 90's, so they wouldn't be winning shit.. Obviously, this is intuitive to anyone with a brain, but since you might be mildly autistic, I'll prove it to you.

Just look at the season of "the shot" - the pivotal 1989 season - the cut-off for the playoffs was 45 wins, which means the 47-win Bulls would've been lottery without Jordan's 33/8/8/54... So heading into the 1990 season, they would've been lottery, instead of ECF veterans and 1 year away from starting the first 3-peat... Can you see why all your assumptions are dumb, or should we consider the Lakers heading into 2000 without ever having Shaq?.





I say they win 6..


But even if we go by your ridiculous premise and nonsensical logic and consider the already-made championship Bulls minus Jordan - your analysis ridiculously overrates their talent because you aren't aware of how the Bulls team was constructed, and how little talent they had top to bottom.. It was very unique.

For example, the 1993 supporting cast only had 3 guys (Pippen/Grant/Armstrong) that played more than 20 mpg and averaged more than 6 ppg - the #4 thru #12 guys all played LESS than 20 mpg and had less than 6 ppg.. There isn't a single team in the league where the #4 thru #12 players were anywhere near this bad.. The Bulls essentially relied on a mix of interchangeable stiffs who barely played and barely scored for the #4 thru #12 spots.

So don't overrate their talent - that isn't why they achieved the 2nd Round.. They made the 2nd Round because of the 3-peat caliber of chemistry and execution accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.. MJ had to lead them to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him.. Those are the facts.
.

[dankok8]

Wow 3ball getting his ass handed to him by LAZERUSS! :rockon:

Even if one concedes that a healthy 1991 Lakers team (they were far from healthy in the finals BTW) was better offensively than the Bulls, it still leaves defense and rebounding... Pippen and Grant (and Jordan) were elite defensively. Who was even very good for LA? Grant was the best rebounder on either team. Somehow these comparisons only focus on one side of the floor.

I will say though bringing up 1989 Kareem makes you look like a dumbass. Kareem was 42 years old and washed up at that point. Him leaving doesn't prove anything. Remove Kareem from 1980-1987 and replace him with Pete Myers and let's see how many titles LA wins... :oldlol:

I will say this... the 1988 Celtics won 57 games and had the best SRS in the league. Then Bird ****ed up his back and played just 6 games in 1989. The Celtics won just 42 games even though their entire core was healthier than the year before. Meanwhile when MJ retired the Bulls went from 57 to 55 wins and that's with Pippen missing some games.

Jordan fans are insecure as ****. Just admit that the Bulls were a very strong team.

[3ball]

Remove Kareem from 1980-1987 and replace him with Pete Myers and let's see how many titles LA wins


Exactly - they can't win any championships without Kareem, just like they didn't win any in 1990 and 1991 without him.

It proves how meaningless the regular season is because Magic/Worthy/Scott/Green won 60 games in 1990, and 58 games in 1991, just like those SAME players did in the 80's WITH Kareem.

But without Kareem, they were no longer a championship team... They invariably got their ass handed to them in the playoff without Kareem.. Period.
.

[K Xerxes]

Spammer vs spammer. This is hilarious.

[dubeta]

Spammer vs spammer. This is hilarious.

Lazarus is destroying 3ball :confusedshrug:


3balls gifs and copy paste essays can only work for so long

[3ball]

Bulls won 55 without MJ..

3ball, can you give me your most concise explanation yet for how this happened?


No problem bud.. MJ put them in that position.

If MJ had retired in 1989 instead, the defending champion 1994 Bulls that executed at a 3-peat level would never have existed because they would've been a lottery team headed into the 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from their 1st three-peat.

That's the GOAT impact - lottery vs. 1 season away from 3-peat (not a 1-off championship, a 3-peat).
.

[Lebron23]

Got Damn it. Lazeruss just destroyed 3ball.

http://cdn.rsvlts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Mike-Tyson-GIF-0211.gif

[LBJFTW]

Lazarus is destroying 3ball :confusedshrug:


3balls gifs and copy paste essays can only work for so long

The irony is that all he needs to do is say 6/6 and the argument is over.

Anything else is just trolling.

[iamgine]

ITT we compare a 70 years old Kareem vs a peak MJ retiring. :lol