What's happening with Greece? Voting NO?

[RagaZ]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c8/48/74/c84874cbadab48efb1fcb4b3005f162f.jpg

[HitandRun Reggie]

Since when has leftist idealism ever concerned itself with reality? When things don't work out like planned they'll just go to the victim card.

[RidonKs]

brave greeks

[kNIOKAS]

Well it seems greeks made a lot of people happy. Especially the prominent economists that were advocating for them to vote no.



Since when has leftist idealism ever concerned itself with reality? When things don't work out like planned they'll just go to the victim card.
When they refuse to be robbed any longer they'll just vote no. :cheers: Enjoy, brother

[fiddy]

Juke nuke them already, tons of wasted of money on undeserving and ungrateful bastards.

[GimmeThat]

and Hemingway, belligerently drunk out of his mind

would have simply responded


the problem with the lack of border control, is that you are simply encouraging war



politicians..

edit: and even if you did have one, I doubt anyone would claim that a successful lobby group who has only one goal in mind is to be considered as 'a successful democratic society/system'.

if you were to criticize socialism, perhaps the only criticism there cease to exist, is in its lack of diverse goals

[StephHamann]

Varoufakis was forced to resign

time to take over again

http://www.tornante.pf-control.de/blog1/wp-content/uploads/Griechenland_Nazi2.jpg

[Cactus-Sack]

Oh no, fat pig merkel won't get money she loaned to a country that was never going to be able to pay it back. What a shock...

Good for Greece, now bring on the Grexit

[fiddy]

Oh no, fat pig merkel won't get money she loaned to a country that was never going to be able to pay it back. What a shock...

Good for Greece, now bring on the Grexit
IMF, ECB, Bundesbank....

[Cactus-Sack]

All made a terrible!e investment. Hope they suffer the consequences

[DonD13]

:applause:

[LJJ]

They voted against austerity, as if popular vote is every going to vote for austerity. :lol But in this case they are right, more massive government cutbacks aren't going to put the Greek economy back on their feet. Now what? All the big decisions still have to be made.

Regardless of what actually is going to happen, a lot of countries are going to lose a lot of money over Greece running itself into the ground. All thanks to bureaucratic geniuses who pushed the Euro down everybody's throat, against the will of the people. Because tying the economy of a completely corrupt "steal everything you can" country like Greece with countries that are culturally and financially nothing alike was ever an awesome idea. What could have possibly gone wrong? :rolleyes:

And I'm not trying to diss the Greeks. I know a couple of Greek people and they are very hard working people who just try to make a living like everybody else. But their culture, economy and the way they handle money and taxes is NOTHING like the way it's done in a place like Holland or Germany, and it's completely incompatible. That's the issue.

[Bucket_Nakedz]

Help them out. Them nigguhz gave western civilization a lot. And my baby Marina and the diamonds is Greek, so I'm finna give what I can in hopes I can smash.

[Godzuki]

i wonder if foreigners can buy greek properties...

[rufuspaul]

Leftists are good at taking over governments, not so great at running them.

[NumberSix]

They voted against austerity, as if popular vote is every going to vote for austerity. :lol But in this case they are right, more massive government cutbacks aren't going to put the Greek economy back on their feet. Now what? All the big decisions still have to be made.

Regardless of what actually is going to happen, a lot of countries are going to lose a lot of money over Greece running itself into the ground. All thanks to bureaucratic geniuses who pushed the Euro down everybody's throat, against the will of the people. Because tying the economy of a completely corrupt "steal everything you can" country like Greece with countries that are culturally and financially nothing alike was ever an awesome idea. What could have possibly gone wrong? :rolleyes:

And I'm not trying to diss the Greeks. I know a couple of Greek people and they are very hard working people who just try to make a living like everybody else. But their culture, economy and the way they handle money and taxes is NOTHING like the way it's done in a place like Holland or Germany, and it's completely incompatible. That's the issue.
So your solution is, continue to spend money they don't have. Brilliant.


http://bookriotcom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Neil-Patrick-Harris-two-thumbs-gif.gif

[kNIOKAS]

Leftists are good at taking over governments, not so great at running them.
That's a broad statement with no basis. Are you talking about the existing Greece government that is trying to get their country of the decades of mess the right wing politicians got them into?

[falc39]

Just because they voted against austerity, doesn't mean they will avoid it. They will have to pay their dues in one form or another. Their government deserves what is happening to them and the creditors deserve what they got for taking the risks they took. Can't keep kicking the can down the road and Greeks are foolish for celebrating.

[LJJ]

So your solution is, continue to spend money they don't have. Brilliant.


http://bookriotcom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Neil-Patrick-Harris-two-thumbs-gif.gif

Learn to read idiot. I said what isn't the solution. Not what is the solution. Can't even understand your own language properly smh.

[kNIOKAS]

Just because they voted against austerity, doesn't mean they will avoid it. They will have to pay their dues in one form or another. Their government deserves what is happening to them and the creditors deserve what they got for taking the risks they took. Can't keep kicking the can down the road and Greeks are foolish for celebrating.
Uh voting for yes thus agreeing to take even a bigger loan would be precisely kicking the can down the road, albeit completely running the ruins of their economy to the ground so that they could never foreseeably repay any of the loans. Are you dumb?

[UK2K]

That's a broad statement with no basis. Are you talking about the existing Greece government that is trying to get their country of the decades of mess the right wing politicians got them into?

Their right and left is different than ours.

They are in debt because of social handouts and not enough tax payers (sound familiar *cough America cough*).

Also, they're dealing with an influx of immigrants, as they are the wall between the ME and African shit holes and white Europe. Kinda like Italy is.

[falc39]

Uh voting for yes thus agreeing to take even a bigger loan would be precisely kicking the can down the road, albeit completely running the ruins of their economy to the ground so that they could never foreseeably repay any of the loans. Are you dumb?

I said they have to pay their dues in one form or another and I never said they should have accepted the bailout. Can you read?

[KingBeasley08]

Greece had such a messed up system. When half the country isn't paying taxes yet you still tried to create a Nordic style Socialist system, it's not gonna work out.

Crazy how different Northern and Southern Europe is. I've been gaining a lot of respect for how well run Scandinavian countries are. Those dudes are on top of their shit

[kNIOKAS]

I said they have to pay their dues in one form or another and I never said they should have accepted the bailout. Can you read?
They have been having austerity for quite some time now, and they refused to prolong it to next generations. Their economy are in shambles, and it couldn't get much worse. Their government is people elected to specifically take care of this situation - why would you say they deserve what happened to them? Are you referring to the government in general? I thought people here are primarily writing about Syriza. They voted no to a worse deal, and that's why they are celebrating. Saying "they have to pay their dues in one form or another" is pretty much saying nothing. They've already paid a lot, and now said no to EU pressure and showed what the real democracy is about.

[NumberSix]

Learn to read idiot. I said what isn't the solution. Not what is the solution. Can't even understand your own language properly smh.
Well, if cutting spending ISN'T the solution, that would by definition be continuing to spend money they don't have. :hammerhead:

[falc39]

They have been having austerity for quite some time now, and they refused to prolong it to next generations. Their economy are in shambles, and it couldn't get much worse. Their government is people elected to specifically take care of this situation - why would you say they deserve what happened to them? Are you referring to the government in general? I thought people here are primarily writing about Syriza. They voted no to a worse deal, and that's why they are celebrating. Saying "they have to pay their dues in one form or another" is pretty much saying nothing. They've already paid a lot, and now said no to EU pressure and showed what the real democracy is about.

They've been in austerity for a couple of years now, I wouldn't call it a very long time. Compared to decades and decades of welfare and social programs, of course it's going to fall short. And it can get a lot worse. There are still a ton of changes that need to happen for the country to become functional again, whether it comes from 'imposed' austerity or not, there is really no way to avoid it. Some of these changes are very fundamental and will also take time to make. Simply holding a vote achieves nothing. All the hard decisions still have to be made and it's foolish that people are celebrating like something has been achieved.

I was referring to the government in general as Greece's problems go back decades, but there is also no sympathy for Syriza either. There is reason why even some leftist groups in Europe don't approve of them. They spun lies and deception before and after the elections. They made a mockery of the negotiating process and acted like ***** to their creditors. There is blame to go around for many players here and Syriza surely should not be spared from it.

[Dresta]

The euro is one of the most idiotic pipe-dreams dreamt up and forced through by intellectually bankrupt politicians.

It simply cannot work, and never could. But i'm sure politicians will be happy to bankrupt most of Europe in order to save face and pretend they haven't made a catastrophic mistake.

[LJJ]

Well, if cutting spending ISN'T the solution, that would by definition be continuing to spend money they don't have. :hammerhead:

No idiot, there are many different ways to try and tackle the situation. Not just A and B. Learn to read. It's your own language, damn! Learn to think.

It might be too late for you.

[Dresta]

They have been having austerity for quite some time now, and they refused to prolong it to next generations. Their economy are in shambles, and it couldn't get much worse. Their government is people elected to specifically take care of this situation - why would you say they deserve what happened to them? Are you referring to the government in general? I thought people here are primarily writing about Syriza. They voted no to a worse deal, and that's why they are celebrating. Saying "they have to pay their dues in one form or another" is pretty much saying nothing. They've already paid a lot, and now said no to EU pressure and showed what the real democracy is about.
:lol

Their economy isn't in shambles because of austerity: it's a mess because of the absurd public sector spending, fuelled by the cheap credit provided by eurozone membership, and widespread corruption (hardly anyone was paying taxes, the starting salary for train drivers was 60,000 euros, and people with jobs as stressful and tiring as hairdressing could retire at 50 and receive a public pension). They were an utter shambles long before any austerity measures. Of course there living standards have gone down: that's what happens when you spend a decade living well beyond your means. Greece's economy has been a shambles for most of the past century, in fact. Reckless spending combined with an unwillingness to work or pay taxes is completely unsustainable.

[kNIOKAS]

They've been in austerity for a couple of years now, I wouldn't call it a very long time. Compared to decades and decades of welfare and social programs, of course it's going to fall short. And it can get a lot worse. There are still a ton of changes that need to happen for the country to become functional again, whether it comes from 'imposed' austerity or not, there is really no way to avoid it. Some of these changes are very fundamental and will also take time to make. Simply holding a vote achieves nothing. All the hard decisions still have to be made and it's foolish that people are celebrating like something has been achieved.

I was referring to the government in general as Greece's problems go back decades, but there is also no sympathy for Syriza either. There is reason why even some leftist groups in Europe don't approve of them. They spun lies and deception before and after the elections. They made a mockery of the negotiating process and acted like ***** to their creditors. There is blame to go around for many players here and Syriza surely should not be spared from it.
It achieved a lot, if you were to read the headlines of a lot of prominent economists and advocates of democracy. That's why people cheer - it's a landmark victory against the imposed will of a EU. Also, I thought creditors acted dick first, so it kind of gives Syriza a pass. They tried to intimidate Greeks into voting yes, which rather reminds of cold war times and not of the brotherly Europe.


:lol

Their economy isn't in shambles because of austerity: it's a mess because of the absurd public sector spending, fuelled by the cheap credit provided by eurozone membership, and widespread corruption (hardly anyone was paying taxes, the starting salary for train drivers was 60,000 euros, and people with jobs as stressful and tiring as hairdressing could retire at 50 and receive a public pension). They were an utter shambles long before any austerity measures. Of course there living standards have gone down: that's what happens when you spend a decade living well beyond your means. Greece's economy has been a shambles for most of the past century, in fact. Reckless spending combined with an unwillingness to work or pay taxes is completely unsustainable.
Depends on the way you look at it. I didn't mean to imply the economy is ruined because of austerity. It has significantly contributed to the situation lately, however.

With the stream of credits they were living just fine. You wouldn't have said their economy was is shambles as they had absolutely great time spending the borrowed money. Of course, creditors then took something in return and privatized a lot of valuable infrastructure. But since the creditors started pushing for the country to adopt austerity, the economy went of the cliff. Now greeks said no to more of the same. Lets see what happens.

[NumberSix]

No idiot, there are many different ways to try and tackle the situation. Not just A and B. Learn to read. It's your own language, damn! Learn to think.

It might be too late for you.
Why are you so angry :confusedshrug:

You said cutting spending isn't the solution. If they don't cut spending, that would be continuing to spend. They don't have the money, so continuing to spend can only mean spending money they don't have.

If you insist on carrying on with this nonsense, explain how that isn't the case.

[TripleA]

Their right and left is different than ours.

They are in debt because of social handouts and not enough tax payers (sound familiar *cough America cough*).

Also, they're dealing with an influx of immigrants, as they are the wall between the ME and African shit holes and white Europe. Kinda like Italy is.

how do the immigrants have anything to do with the collapse of the Greece economy.

[LJJ]

Why are you so angry :confusedshrug:

You said cutting spending isn't the solution. If they don't cut spending, that would be continuing to spend. They don't have the money, so continuing to spend can only mean spending money they don't have.

If you insist on carrying on with this nonsense, explain how that isn't the case.

The solution is not option A or B. Neither cutbacks or increasing spending is the solution to the problem. This discussion is clearly way over your head, you should stick to trying to post funny gifs ya?

[GimmeThat]

The euro is one of the most idiotic pipe-dreams dreamt up and forced through by intellectually bankrupt politicians.

It simply cannot work, and never could. But i'm sure politicians will be happy to bankrupt most of Europe in order to save face and pretend they haven't made a catastrophic mistake.


the two terms that comes to mind are as follow
'debt' and 'inflation'

sure, there IS the argument that a one currency system does not work
since we may as well face the end of all, where it is the most held currency in the world versus "gold"

which somewhat brings us back to the 'credit' market


so this brings us back to the combination of treasury and federal reserve
who, HAVE, the ability to print money, at the very least, in the public eyes and in its function that has been employed by the government.

so, what is a bailout?

and what happens when we treat these currencies as a natural resources
other wise to be known as, resources not meant to be held by men, utilized by men, but only in the greater good of the advancement of the society of all man kind


you let me know

[NumberSix]

The solution is not option A or B. Neither cutbacks or increasing spending is the solution to the problem. This discussion is clearly way over your head, you should stick to trying to post funny gifs ya?
No, don't go switching the goal posts. Nobody ever said anything about "increasing" spending. The discussion was cutting or not cutting.

[LJJ]

No, don't go switching the goal posts. Nobody ever said anything about "increasing" spending. The discussion was cutting or not cutting.

No that's not the discussion. I said the massive government cutbacks proposed in the deal, which is what the referendum was about, which is what this thread is about, does not offer any solution to the problem. It's just prolonging the situation, because it doesn't solve any of the core causes that led to this problem. It's about this specific plan, it's not a general statement that cutbacks in any shape or form are always bad.

You have no clue what this whole situation is about and you immediately jump to some kind of "look at these libs wanting to spend money they don't have" conclusion. I never even said that, and it's not what the topic is about. The entire naive dems vs reps way of blowharding has nothing to do with EU politics.

If you have no clue about the specifics in the Eurozone and all the underlying causes of the Greek situation, and you don't even know much about the referendum discussed in this thread is about, it's better to just stfu and practice your reading.

[NumberSix]

No that's not the discussion. I said the massive government cutbacks proposed in the deal, which is what the referendum was about, which is what this thread is about, does not offer any solution to the problem. It's just prolonging the situation, because it doesn't solve any of the core causes that led to this problem. It's about this specific plan, it's not a general statement that cutbacks in any shape or form are always bad.

You have no clue what this whole situation is about and you immediately jump to some kind of "look at these libs wanting to spend money they don't have" conclusion. I never even said that, and it's not what the topic is about. The entire naive dems vs reps way of blowharding has nothing to do with EU politics.

If you have no clue about the specifics in the Eurozone and all the underlying causes of the Greek situation, and you don't even know much about the referendum discussed in this thread is about, it's better to just stfu and practice your reading.
Why do you assume that I don't? :confusedshrug:

In what world does...

not having money + not cutting spending =/= spending money you don't have?

[LJJ]

Why do you assume that I don't? :confusedshrug:

In what world does...

not having money + not cutting spending =/= spending money you don't have?

I know you don't. End of.

[GimmeThat]

No that's not the discussion. I said the massive government cutbacks proposed in the deal, which is what the referendum was about, which is what this thread is about, does not offer any solution to the problem. It's just prolonging the situation, because it doesn't solve any of the core causes that led to this problem. It's about this specific plan, it's not a general statement that cutbacks in any shape or form are always bad.

You have no clue what this whole situation is about and you immediately jump to some kind of "look at these libs wanting to spend money they don't have" conclusion. I never even said that, and it's not what the topic is about. The entire naive dems vs reps way of blowharding has nothing to do with EU politics.

If you have no clue about the specifics in the Eurozone and all the underlying causes of the Greek situation, and you don't even know much about the referendum discussed in this thread is about, it's better to just stfu and practice your reading.

cut backs, no cut backs.

it is how the leader phrase those words, when the deal is proposed to not just the member of the congress, but more importantly, the public.

some of the old timers who have stuck with their role, may simply sigh and say, lets have some faith

others may simply look in to the camera, without knowing who specifically is listening, but simply give them the acknowledgement that we will do our part, as long as you do yours.

then there are those, who will do what is the most rational idea, in its attempt to disregard the emotion and psychological impact it may have on the market, by the simple use of words, not the use of friends and friendship, but the use of words in reminding those who have the duty and the responsibilities, just as well as simply stating the rational truth of those who are at fault, and they are very much in charge of the governments policy, no denying.

[NumberSix]

I know you don't. End of.
That's an awfully random assumption considering we've had literally no discussion at all on it.

[BoutPractice]

The offer on the table wasn't serious. It's so laughably wrong, both on the economics and the politics, that I can only assume Germany and EU institutions are now actively seeking Grexit (which is actually crazy dangerous for them, but they don't seem to realize it).

You have to look at the fundamentals, not the minutiae. The Greek debt is unsustainable, and more decades of austerity still won't get them anywhere near where they need to be to pay it back. This isn't just the opinion of some hardcore leftists, mind you, this is something that the IMF, US Treasury, and Wall Street bankers would all agree on. It just doesn't add up... even on the spreadsheet, to say nothing of the real world.

Yes, Greece is a joke of a state. But the hard truth is that creditors won't be getting their money back anyway. Even if the Greek government had agreed to decades long austerity, the situation most likely would've ended in a military coup... to say nothing of risks following Grexit. Therefore it's actually in their own interests to give ground on debt relief. I have no problem with creditors calling the shots (if you want true political independence, you need to ensure some level of economic independence... you can't take someone's money and then complain when they want it back) but they're not acting in their own interest by making demands that don't include debt reduction, nor by pushing for Grexit.

Bottom line: If punishing the Greeks is more important than getting paid, austerity or Grexit is the way to go. But if they're more interested in an outcome that benefits them financially, they should drop the whole charade.

[rufuspaul]

The offer on the table wasn't serious. It's so laughably wrong, both on the economics and the politics, that I can only assume Germany and EU institutions are now actively seeking Grexit (which is actually crazy dangerous for them, but they don't seem to realize it).

You have to look at the fundamentals, not the minutiae. The Greek debt is unsustainable, and more decades of austerity still won't get them anywhere near where they need to be to pay it back. This isn't just the opinion of some hardcore leftists, mind you, this is something that the IMF, US Treasury, and Wall Street bankers would all agree on. It just doesn't add up... even on the spreadsheet, to say nothing of the real world.

Yes, Greece is a joke of a state. But the hard truth is that creditors won't be getting their money back anyway. Even if the Greek government had agreed to decades long austerity, the situation most likely would've ended in a military coup... to say nothing of risks following Grexit. Therefore it's actually in their own interests to give ground on debt relief. I have no problem with creditors calling the shots (if you want true political independence, you need to ensure some level of economic independence... you can't take someone's money and then complain when they want it back) but they're not acting in their own interest by making demands that don't include debt reduction, nor by pushing for Grexit.

Bottom line: If punishing the Greeks is more important than getting paid, austerity or Grexit is the way to go. But if they're more interested in an outcome that benefits them financially, they should drop the whole charade.

:applause: Wow, a poster that actually makes some sense.

[RidonKs]

The offer on the table wasn't serious. It's so laughably wrong, both on the economics and the politics, that I can only assume Germany and EU institutions are now actively seeking Grexit (which is actually crazy dangerous for them, but they don't seem to realize it).

You have to look at the fundamentals, not the minutiae. The Greek debt is unsustainable, and more decades of austerity still won't get them anywhere near where they need to be to pay it back. This isn't just the opinion of some hardcore leftists, mind you, this is something that the IMF, US Treasury, and Wall Street bankers would all agree on. It just doesn't add up... even on the spreadsheet, to say nothing of the real world.

Yes, Greece is a joke of a state. But the hard truth is that creditors won't be getting their money back anyway. Even if the Greek government had agreed to decades long austerity, the situation most likely would've ended in a military coup... to say nothing of risks following Grexit. Therefore it's actually in their own interests to give ground on debt relief. I have no problem with creditors calling the shots (if you want true political independence, you need to ensure some level of economic independence... you can't take someone's money and then complain when they want it back) but they're not acting in their own interest by making demands that don't include debt reduction, nor by pushing for Grexit.

Bottom line: If punishing the Greeks is more important than getting paid, austerity or Grexit is the way to go. But if they're more interested in an outcome that benefits them financially, they should drop the whole charade.
:applause:

i second rupaul's ringing endorsement

[UK2K]

how do the immigrants have anything to do with the collapse of the Greece economy.

Because immigrants cost money.


Through June 26, 68,000 migrants, more than half of them from Syria, had arrived in Greece by sea this year, according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. That makes Greece Europe’s main entry point for migrants, overtaking Italy.

Total arrivals via the Mediterranean this year in Greece, Italy, Malta and Spain reached 137,000, an 83% increase from the year-earlier period, the UNHCR said.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/greece-grapples-with-its-own-migrant-problem-1435707678

Look at California. Illegals are a big reason that state is on the verge of bankruptcy.


Californians bear an enormous fiscal burden as a result of an illegal alien population estimated at almost 3 million residents. The annual expenditure of state and local tax dollars on services for that population is $25.3 billion. That total amounts to a yearly burden of about $2,370 for a household headed by a U.S. citizen.

That would be.... $25 BILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR


A more recent law, A.B. 60, gives illegal aliens access to driver’s licenses. This measure alone is going to cost the state of California, by its own admission, $64.7 million per year.


Other fiscal outlays result from the costs of medical care ($4.0 billion), public assistance services ($800 million), administration of justice functions ($4.4 billion), and general governmental services ($1.6 billion).

Nothing is free in this world. If you want to hand out free shit, you have to take it from someone else.

[DCL]

:lol

Their economy isn't in shambles because of austerity: it's a mess because of the absurd public sector spending, fuelled by the cheap credit provided by eurozone membership, and widespread corruption (hardly anyone was paying taxes, the starting salary for train drivers was 60,000 euros, and people with jobs as stressful and tiring as hairdressing could retire at 50 and receive a public pension). They were an utter shambles long before any austerity measures. Of course there living standards have gone down: that's what happens when you spend a decade living well beyond your means. Greece's economy has been a shambles for most of the past century, in fact. Reckless spending combined with an unwillingness to work or pay taxes is completely unsustainable.

michael lewis covered it pretty well in boomerang.

[RRR3]

VSpan will save them!

[falc39]

The offer on the table wasn't serious. It's so laughably wrong, both on the economics and the politics, that I can only assume Germany and EU institutions are now actively seeking Grexit (which is actually crazy dangerous for them, but they don't seem to realize it).

You have to look at the fundamentals, not the minutiae. The Greek debt is unsustainable, and more decades of austerity still won't get them anywhere near where they need to be to pay it back. This isn't just the opinion of some hardcore leftists, mind you, this is something that the IMF, US Treasury, and Wall Street bankers would all agree on. It just doesn't add up... even on the spreadsheet, to say nothing of the real world.

Yes, Greece is a joke of a state. But the hard truth is that creditors won't be getting their money back anyway. Even if the Greek government had agreed to decades long austerity, the situation most likely would've ended in a military coup... to say nothing of risks following Grexit. Therefore it's actually in their own interests to give ground on debt relief. I have no problem with creditors calling the shots (if you want true political independence, you need to ensure some level of economic independence... you can't take someone's money and then complain when they want it back) but they're not acting in their own interest by making demands that don't include debt reduction, nor by pushing for Grexit.

Bottom line: If punishing the Greeks is more important than getting paid, austerity or Grexit is the way to go. But if they're more interested in an outcome that benefits them financially, they should drop the whole charade.

Debt relief does not fix any of Greece's internal problems. It is kicking the can down the road only for it to return in the near future. You are also ignoring that Greece is not the only country with debt problems and the moral hazard this would introduce when countries like Spain and Portugal see a much more reckless economy get bailed out.

[kNIOKAS]

Learn about the situation from the ex-finance minister of Greece himself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH5Yv7iwfhs

[rufuspaul]

I imagine the Germans are getting pretty tired of carrying the load for all the Eurozone bottom feeders.

[Dresta]

The offer on the table wasn't serious. It's so laughably wrong, both on the economics and the politics, that I can only assume Germany and EU institutions are now actively seeking Grexit (which is actually crazy dangerous for them, but they don't seem to realize it).

You have to look at the fundamentals, not the minutiae. The Greek debt is unsustainable, and more decades of austerity still won't get them anywhere near where they need to be to pay it back. This isn't just the opinion of some hardcore leftists, mind you, this is something that the IMF, US Treasury, and Wall Street bankers would all agree on. It just doesn't add up... even on the spreadsheet, to say nothing of the real world.

Yes, Greece is a joke of a state. But the hard truth is that creditors won't be getting their money back anyway. Even if the Greek government had agreed to decades long austerity, the situation most likely would've ended in a military coup... to say nothing of risks following Grexit. Therefore it's actually in their own interests to give ground on debt relief. I have no problem with creditors calling the shots (if you want true political independence, you need to ensure some level of economic independence... you can't take someone's money and then complain when they want it back) but they're not acting in their own interest by making demands that don't include debt reduction, nor by pushing for Grexit.

Bottom line: If punishing the Greeks is more important than getting paid, austerity or Grexit is the way to go. But if they're more interested in an outcome that benefits them financially, they should drop the whole charade.
You are right, which is why they need to leave and default. I think euro nations gave up on Greece a while back, though i don't see how a Grexit is dangerous to them in any way; Greece is pretty much irrelevant - it's Italy that is the big worry, and the country that will probably end up bringing down the euro.


michael lewis covered it pretty well in boomerang.
Yeah, that book was something of an eye-opener regarding the incredible profligacy and duplicity of Greek politicians.


It achieved a lot, if you were to read the headlines of a lot of prominent economists and advocates of democracy. That's why people cheer - it's a landmark victory against the imposed will of a EU. Also, I thought creditors acted dick first, so it kind of gives Syriza a pass. They tried to intimidate Greeks into voting yes, which rather reminds of cold war times and not of the brotherly Europe.


Depends on the way you look at it. I didn't mean to imply the economy is ruined because of austerity. It has significantly contributed to the situation lately, however.

With the stream of credits they were living just fine. You wouldn't have said their economy was is shambles as they had absolutely great time spending the borrowed money. Of course, creditors then took something in return and privatized a lot of valuable infrastructure. But since the creditors started pushing for the country to adopt austerity, the economy went of the cliff. Now greeks said no to more of the same. Lets see what happens.If they leave the euro the country will be forced to default, and won't be able to borrow much money at all. Either way, their standard of living is going to decline dramatically. I think they should leave the euro as well, but if they don't restructure their economy sensibly then these problems aren't going to go away (and Greece in modern times has always had debt problems - allowing it into the euro in the first place was pure folly, and only done for symbolic reasons).



the two terms that comes to mind are as follow
'debt' and 'inflation'

sure, there IS the argument that a one currency system does not work
since we may as well face the end of all, where it is the most held currency in the world versus "gold"

which somewhat brings us back to the 'credit' market


so this brings us back to the combination of treasury and federal reserve
who, HAVE, the ability to print money, at the very least, in the public eyes and in its function that has been employed by the government.

so, what is a bailout?

and what happens when we treat these currencies as a natural resources
other wise to be known as, resources not meant to be held by men, utilized by men, but only in the greater good of the advancement of the society of all man kind


you let me knowWell, currencies aren't natural resources - the ECB's money printing has caused the value of the euro to drop considerably. The US is the only country capable of externalising its inflation, because it is the world reserve currency, and is seen as a safe bet in volatile times. It cannot last forever though.

Saved a decent amount of money this past year by transferring a large part of my earnings from euros into pounds (transferwise is the shit).

[Dresta]

I imagine the Germans are getting pretty tired of carrying the load for all the Eurozone bottom feeders.
While this is partly true, it isn't the whole truth. The Germans benefitted massively from Southern debt-fuelled spending, as a lot of this money was spent on their own exports. You can't have a successful monetary union without transferring money to ease economic asymmetries, and for that you need a strong commonality of destiny; that is basically the reason why it makes no sense for countries that have nothing holding them together to enter into a monetary union; it's fine when times are good, but when things become fractious it'll inevitably fall apart, and set euro nations against one another.

Of course, Greek spending was so outrageous that it's understandable why no-one wants to foot the bill. But it is still a consequence of the intrinsic imbalances of the euro currency, which was always a foolish experiment, and was warned against by many at the time (politicians never listen though when trying to enact their grand, career-defining schemes).

[LJJ]

Debt relief does not fix any of Greece's internal problems. It is kicking the can down the road only for it to return in the near future. You are also ignoring that Greece is not the only country with debt problems and the moral hazard this would introduce when countries like Spain and Portugal see a much more reckless economy get bailed out.

That's the bigger concern.

Greece can be solved. Grexit might even be the best solution for everybody. Nobody wants to do it, because it's like cutting off a gangrenous leg with no sedatives. It's painful but it probably has to be done. They are not the first country in history to go bankrupt, it can be done and then they can move forward without the scrutiny and meddling of big brother.

The bigger problem is that all the economies in the eurozone by and large are incompatible with each other to the extent of sharing a currency. None of them quite as severely as Greece, but sooner or later the same issues will emerge. All of these countries have fundamentally different economies, different tax situations, different debt situations, different currency policies, a different political climate and a different cultural way of handling money.
The Euro has been instated without any actual reform whatsoever. Without any real measures to bring these countries closer together. Without any real, enforced means of governance. Sure there are some vague agreements in place but these agreements hold no power and have been ignored since the very beginning. The entire concept of the Eurozone is based on a short-term, best-case economic scenario without any contingency plans to solve problems as they arise. It's an ill-conceived train-wreck carried by out of touch politicians who figured it would be neat to drink tea together more often.

[UK2K]

So, is there anything worth investing in in Greece? Property? Real estate?

It's going to get worse before it gets better, but I did managed to go halfsies (thirdsies really) on a house in Detroit that has slowly appreciated in value since that city imploded.

Why not go for a vacation home in Greece?

[Dresta]

So, is there anything worth investing in in Greece? Property? Real estate?

It's going to get worse before it gets better, but I did managed to go halfsies (thirdsies really) on a house in Detroit that has slowly appreciated in value since that city imploded.

Why not go for a vacation home in Greece?
Don't know about buying, but it's incredibly cheap just to rent a place out there for the summer, and the exchange rate makes it even better. You can get places for peanuts.