Better player: Kawhi or Melo?

[Rose'sACL]

i think melo is easily the better player but a lot of people think kawhi is the better player.

I just don't get it how kawhi is better than melo. Can someone explain? is this because of defense being overvalued by hipster fans? Defense is important but ability to create offense like carmelo does is even more valuable.

[keep-itreal]

so far Kawhi is still just a role player. Let's see if he improves his offense next season

[DMAVS41]

leonard...not close

[Spurs m8]

LOL its 2015, Kawhi puts lazy Melos game to ****ing shame

[PickernRoller]

Melo and it's not close. Kawhi outside the Spurs umbrella is a role player, borderline star on the generous side.

[Spurs m8]

so far Kawhi is still just a role player. Let's see if he improves his offense next season

LOL you're obsessed with the Spurs and scared to death now they're pulling this new era together perfectly.

[Spurs m8]

Melo and it's not close. Kawhi outside the Spurs umbrella is a role player, borderline star on the generous side.

You should probably keep your opinions to yourself unless you actually know what you're talking about, you look like a dumbarse.

Also, enjoy the lottery the next few years

[dubeta]

LOL its hard to answer this question without giving specifics like on what system or with what other players


This can totally be answered in both ways depending on circumstances


Theres no way anyone here would want Kawhi on a team with



Pg: Ty Lawson
SG: Tony Allen
SF:
PF: Serge Ibaka
C: Marc Gasol



Meanwhile theres no way you would want Melo on OKC instead of Kawhi

[Akrazotile]

i think melo is easily the better player but a lot of people think kawhi is the better player.

I just don't get it how kawhi is better than melo. Can someone explain? is this because of defense being overvalued by hipster fans? Defense is important but ability to create offense like carmelo does is even more valuable.

He creates poor efficiency shots for himself with the same effectiveness a team full of role players could for each other, and provides nothing else. He has negative intangibles.

It doesnt matter how many more kinds of shots he can make than Leonard. It's a team sport. Sometimes playing within your role can make you a more valuable player than a more "skilled" guy with a low IQ who tries to do too much. "Less is more" type of thing.

[imdaman99]

On the current Knicks? Gimme Kawhi :oldlol:

[nzahir]

Depends on the team. If you have a guy who can get u 25-30 a night(bron, kd, harden, curry, WB, Ad...) then ill take kawhi. But kawhi cant be a go to scorer or #1 option consistently on offense. So if my team just has some role guys and some defenders then ill take melo.
Melo the better player, easily a top 5 scorer still

[Akrazotile]

Depends on the team. If you have a guy who can get u 25-30 a night(bron, kd, harden, curry, WB, Ad...) then ill take kawhi. But kawhi cant be a go to scorer or #1 option consistently on offense. So if my team just has some role guys and some defenders then ill take melo.
Melo the better player, easily a top 5 scorer still


Well the Sours seem to fair pretty well in the regular season even when their big 3 sit or play low minutes.


The Knicks, meanwhile...

[Real14]

On the current Knicks? Gimme Kawhi :oldlol:
Stop with the jokes man:lol Stop with the jokes!:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

The skillset Kawhi has and his ability fit in with pretty much any type of team trumps Melo's iso scoring...

Not to mention Melo is the epitome of a player that can't score efficiently enough in the playoffs to make up for his lack of defense and team play. Being an inefficient ball stopping high volume scorer that doesn't make teammates better is simply nowhere near as valuable as a legit dpoy type guy on the perimeter than can get you 20/7/3 at this point in his career...even on limited touches.

It's not close....

[PickernRoller]

You should probably keep your opinions to yourself unless you actually know what you're talking about, you look like a dumbarse.

Also, enjoy the lottery the next few years

If that's all you got to respond as to why your boy is a glorified role player living under the Pop bubble? That doesn't make the facts go away.

As for the Lakers being in the lottery... sure we're but we also have had more success than the vulture franchise you rep. Has to be pretty downing that you guys can't repeat for shit. One year the best team, the other a first round exit.....:oldlol: :oldlol: Let me know when you guys do, so I can take the Spurs seriously as a dominant force in the West.

[Spurs m8]

If that's all you got to respond as to why your boy is a glorified role player living under the Pop bubble? That doesn't make the facts go away.

As for the Lakers being in the lottery... sure we're but we also have had more success than the vulture franchise you rep. Has to be pretty downing that you guys can't repeat for shit. One year the best team, the other a first round exit.....:oldlol: :oldlol: Let me know when you guys do, so I can take the Spurs seriously a dominant force in the West.


So much salt, m8

[Harison]

Going forward? Absolutely Kiwi.

Its too early to judge by their careers, but Kiwi managed to shine brighter under the biggest spotlight. Offensively Marshmelo obviously better, but Kiwi brings more things to the table, and he is just starting warming up.

[PickernRoller]

So much salt, m8

Yes, dripping from your mouth....:oldlol: :oldlol:

[MellowYellow]

Melo is a better passer, scorer, dribbler, shooter, basically everything but defense. So it depends on what you want. Kawhi on the Knicks instead of Melo would probably average the same #'s he did on the Spurs but on 40% shooting. He doesn't know what it's like to be the only scoring threat on an NBA team.

[Real14]

Everybody hates Melo:oldlol: :facepalm

[nzahir]

On the current Knicks? Gimme Kawhi :oldlol:
Stop it, the knicks would be even worse, who would even score?

[PickernRoller]

Stop it, the knicks would be even worse, who would even score?


Kawhi would hold 2 guard spots to 20% shooting each doe... he need no offensive skills.

[ClipperRevival]

I take the long, athletic two-way wing player. He can fit into almost any system while with Melo, your system has to adopt to him. Leonard's scoring abilities continue to improve. He is like poor man's Pippen. The guy fills up the stat sheets.

[rmt]

If that's all you got to respond as to why your boy is a glorified role player living under the Pop bubble? That doesn't make the facts go away.

As for the Lakers being in the lottery... sure we're but we also have had more success than the vulture franchise you rep. Has to be pretty downing that you guys can't repeat for shit. One year the best team, the other a first round exit.....:oldlol: :oldlol: Let me know when you guys do, so I can take the Spurs seriously as a dominant force in the West.

You'd be slobbering if you had that glorified role player on the Lakers. And see how he's a role player when it suits you, but when discussing Duncan, Leonard becomes "the man" and Duncan the role player (to suit your Kobe agenda).

[DMAVS41]

You guys act like Melo is a transcendent offensive player or something. He isn't...and what we do know...is that he simply does not score efficiently enough in the playoffs to warrant his volume.

You simply aren't winning anything with Melo as your best player if he's shooting his standard 52% TS in his prime.

I hate to simplify it so much, but that simply isn't good enough for a dude taking 22 shots a game and making no real impact in any other aspect of the game.

He's not a good pick and roll player, he's not a great passer, he's an average defensive player at best. He's a straight up ball stopper that doesn't make other players better.

Now, he's a good player overall because he can get you 30 and not many guys can do that, but being able to get 30...often on poor scoring efficiency....doesn't trump what Kawhi can at this point of his career.

[PickernRoller]

You'd be slobbering if you had that glorified role player on the Lakers. And see how he's a role player when it suits you, but when discussing Duncan, Leonard becomes "the man" and Duncan the role player (to suit your Kobe agenda).

Role player A > Role player B. It's really not hard. He would fit the Artest/Ariza role nicely. So would I want him? Yeah....but not at the ridiculous contract the Spurs gave out. Hold the L...

[Spurs m8]

Everybody hates Melo:oldlol: :facepalm

Its not hate, he's just a lazy player now and Kawhi brings more to a team, by about 1000

[DMAVS41]

Role player A > Role player B. It's really not hard. He would fit the Artest/Ariza role nicely. So would I want him? Yeah....but not at the ridiculous contract the Spurs gave out. Hold the L...

:facepalm

There isn't one person that knows the NBA that thinks Leonard on that deal isn't a steal.

There also isn't one team in the league that wouldn't gladly pay him that regardless of what kind of team they have.

Just stop it...

[PickernRoller]

:facepalm

There isn't one person that knows the NBA that thinks Leonard on that deal isn't a steal.

There also isn't one team in the league that wouldn't gladly pay him that regardless of what kind of team they have.

Just stop it...

You say that with so much conviction as if you were a GM in this league. Yet, you're a simple warrior on ISH...poor at that.....

How's that Gino account btw...? Not sure which team to rep this season, Spurs, Mavs...? At least one thing is known to be constant with you, Kobe hate - however it's disguised - and funnily you try. Not that it's hard to see why "Spur" fans hate Kobe....the kid is what you call, a Spurs killer.

And NO. Not "every other" team in the league would pay that amount.

[rmt]

Role player A > Role player B. It's really not hard. He would fit the Artest/Ariza role nicely. So would I want him? Yeah....but not at the ridiculous contract the Spurs gave out. Hold the L...

Leonard deservedly got the max contract - $90m/5 for a FMVP/DPOY just turned 24 years old is a FANTASTIC deal. Here are some of the deals Spur players are getting from other teams:

Belinelli $19m/3 years
Baynes $20m/3 years
Joseph $30m/4 years

Glad for them. And yes, any team including yours would be ecstatic to get Leonard. (and especially so at that price).

[Heavincent]

Kawhi and it's not close.

[DMAVS41]

You say that with so much conviction as if you were a GM in this league. Yet, you're a simple warrior on ISH...poor at that.....

How's that Gino account btw...? Not sure which team to rep this season, Spurs, Mavs...? At least one thing is known to be constant with you, Kobe hate - however it's disguised - and funnily you try. Not that it's hard to see why "Spur" fans hate Kobe....the kid is what you call, a Spurs killer.

And NO. Not "every other" team in the league would pay that amount.


A few things:

1. Your response is typical of a child or somebody that doesn't have a real response so you end up talking about an anonymous poster on the internet...

2. This has literally nothing to do with Kobe

3. I know because I know the game and the league. I know because it's blatantly obvious that Leonard on a 5 year 90 million dollar deal in this environment is amazing.

Reggie Jackson just got a 5 year 80 million dollar deal. It's absurd the actual value Leonard has at his price. And any team would love it if they could fit it in on their team...regardless of team make up. Why? Because Kawhi can play a variety of roles and doesn't need the ball to have a great impact.

He's better than Melo at this point...sorry

[ClipperRevival]

If you asked 30 GMs who they would take right now, I'm pretty sure 30 would pick Leonard. There is tremendous value for a long, athletic, two-way wing player. Basketball is played on two ends and a wing who can give you D at an elite level and offense at a solid level (and improving) is valueable.

[Heavincent]

If you asked 30 GMs who they would take right now, I'm pretty sure 30 would pick Leonard. There is tremendous value for a long, athletic, two-way wing player. Basketball is played on two ends and a wing who can give you D at an elite level and offense at a solid level (and improving) is valueable.

There are some really dumb GM's in the league who would probably take Melo. But yeah, the smart ones are taking Kawhi.

Melo is basically what Kobe detractors pretend Kobe was: an inefficient iso player who is subpar in almost every aspect except scoring.

[Legends66NBA7]

If you asked 30 GMs who they would take right now, I'm pretty sure 30 would pick Leonard. There is tremendous value for a long, athletic, two-way wing player. Basketball is played on two ends and a wing who can give you D at an elite level and offense at a solid level (and improving) is valueable.

True this.

One of the biggest things that are trending in the league, along with spacing and small ball, is 3&D players. Add to the fact that Leonard is athletic enough to guard 4 positions aand he has room to improve his offense in the future ? He can definitely carry the Spurs once Tim Duncan calls it a career.



By the way DMAVS, what kinda off salary would be appropriate to Leonard given a cap increase ?

[PickernRoller]

Leonard deservedly got the max contract - $90m/5 for a FMVP/DPOY just turned 24 years old is a FANTASTIC deal. Here are some of the deals Spur players are getting from other teams:

Glad for them. And yes, any team including yours would be ecstatic to get Leonard. (and especially so at that price).

Absolutely not. The guy is not an offensive threat for any other team in this league - dude lives and thrives under the Pop bubble. He's not a franchise player, simply put. It's nice to play for a team who has legitimate scoring threats 1-5. You don't command all the attention defensively and you can pick off easy baskets as the result of the threat your teamates pose, along with the occasional mismatch or the well ran set. An all energy guy with decent athleticism and large wingspan. His offensive skills however, that's a work in progress that even his high energy play won't improve much past what they already are. There is a difference between being one of the guys and being the guy. I guess with Aldridge being a Spur he will never taste that.

[DMAVS41]

True this.

One of the biggest things that are trending in the league, along with spacing and small ball, is 3&D players. Add to the fact that Leonard is athletic enough to guard 4 positions aand he has room to improve his offense in the future ? He can definitely carry the Spurs once Tim Duncan calls it a career.



By the way DMAVS, what kinda off salary would be appropriate to Leonard given a cap increase ?

He's a full max player.

[Milbuck]

I agree that Kawhi right now is clearly better than Melo. But I just don't get why Kawhi seems to get zero flack for completely wetting the bed in the playoffs this year. Like no one is talking about this. The guy gets hyped up like a top 10 player should, but gets absolutely none of the blame. Seriously, if Carmelo puts up 14 ppg on 41% TS in the last 3 games of a 7 game series that he loses, the guy would get shredded on here. Same goes for any top 10 player like Westbrook, Harden, Curry, etc. The guy put up 13 ppg on 39% TS in the 2 closeout games of the series, and they lost by an average of 4 points in those 2 games. And you can't even point to his defense either, his defense in those games was nothing special, he was at best the 3rd defender on the Spurs and it was him lacking his usual defensive intensity and focus leading to easy Clipper buckets.

[PickernRoller]

A few things:

1. Your response is typical of a child or somebody that doesn't have a real response so you end up talking about an anonymous poster on the internet...

2. This has literally nothing to do with Kobe

3. I know because I know the game and the league. I know because it's blatantly obvious that Leonard on a 5 year 90 million dollar deal in this environment is amazing.

Reggie Jackson just got a 5 year 80 million dollar deal. It's absurd the actual value Leonard has at his price. And any team would love it if they could fit it in on their team...regardless of team make up. Why? Because Kawhi can play a variety of roles and doesn't need the ball to have a great impact.

He's better than Melo at this point...sorry

#1: The only thing you know is your opinion.

#2: I know you better than most - the child claim is a little rich coming from a clown with multiple alts.

Take the L brother.

[PickernRoller]

I agree that Kawhi right now is clearly better than Melo. But I just don't get why Kawhi seems to get zero flack for completely wetting the bed in the playoffs this year. Like no one is talking about this. The guy gets hyped up like a top 10 player should, but gets absolutely none of the blame. Seriously, if Carmelo puts up 14 ppg on 41% TS in the last 3 games of a 7 game series that he loses, the guy would get shredded on here. Same goes for any top 10 player like Westbrook, Harden, Curry, etc. The guy put up 13 ppg on 39% TS in the 2 closeout games of the series, and they lost by an average of 4 points in those 2 games. And you can't even point to his defense either, his defense in those games was nothing special, he was at best the 3rd defender on the Spurs and it was him lacking his usual defensive intensity and focus leading to easy Clipper buckets.

The guy is overrated as hell back and forth. Dude is a great role player and borderline star depending on who you ask but you take him out of the system he thrives in and well, you don't have much to work with, other than what makes him survive in this league in the first place. Nothing wrong being enamored with the guy but that's about it. He's Artest with a sweet attitude and less offensive skills thriving under Pop and the other players around him. He will continue to thrive in that same vein with LMA on the roster. Once Parker, Gino and Duncan retire it will be interesting to see who the Spurs pair him up with and what his production is. The Spurs will need a 20 points per game average guy in the PG spot least.

[pastis]

You say that with so much conviction as if you were a GM in this league. Yet, you're a simple warrior on ISH...poor at that.....

How's that Gino account btw...? Not sure which team to rep this season, Spurs, Mavs...? At least one thing is known to be constant with you, Kobe hate - however it's disguised - and funnily you try. Not that it's hard to see why "Spur" fans hate Kobe....the kid is what you call, a Spurs killer.

And NO. Not "every other" team in the league would pay that amount.

what are you talking about? Mavs41 is surely one of the best and most obejctive posters here on ISH. And you? another annoying Kobe stan. You know what, at least there are some Kobe stans who are funny like MR. Jabbar or a little bit objective like specialque. You are just another annoying Kobe Stan visiting every day the salt factory.

edit: Dmavs41 has alts? :ISHFACE: :biggums:

[PickernRoller]

what are you talking about? Mavs41 is surely one of the best and most obejctive posters here on ISH. And you? another annoying Kobe stan. You know what, at least there are some Kobe stans who are funny like MR. Jabbar or a little bit objective like specialque. You are just another annoying Kobe Stan visiting every day the salt factory.

edit: Dmavs41 has alts? :ISHFACE

Is that so? :oldlol: :oldlol: I guess by now he has a solid following.... nonsense spreads fast in this forum. If Pauk, Silk and others can get a following, you have to figure a try hard in this forum will too. 22k post - sweet Jesus.

[Springsteen]

Is that so? :oldlol: :oldlol:

He's more objective than you, that's for sure.

[TripleA]

melo gets so much flack but two seasons ago he was 3rd in MVP voting.:bowdown: . So does dwight. But I think if melo did not have messed up knee it would be him but now its Kawhi.

[PickernRoller]

He's more objective than you, that's for sure.

I don't pretend to be. I tried when my account was in its infancy.... I quickly learned what ISH is all about. Great for game threads - that's about it.

[keep-itreal]

I agree that Kawhi right now is clearly better than Melo. But I just don't get why Kawhi seems to get zero flack for completely wetting the bed in the playoffs this year. Like no one is talking about this. The guy gets hyped up like a top 10 player should, but gets absolutely none of the blame. Seriously, if Carmelo puts up 14 ppg on 41% TS in the last 3 games of a 7 game series that he loses, the guy would get shredded on here. Same goes for any top 10 player like Westbrook, Harden, Curry, etc. The guy put up 13 ppg on 39% TS in the 2 closeout games of the series, and they lost by an average of 4 points in those 2 games. And you can't even point to his defense either, his defense in those games was nothing special, he was at best the 3rd defender on the Spurs and it was him lacking his usual defensive intensity and focus leading to easy Clipper buckets.

yup, I noticed that too. I don't think he will be capable of carrying the offense the way Carmelo does. Hopefully he continues to improve next season

[sundizz]

Putting Melo on the Spurs would make them clear cut title favorites. He would be an excellent fit in a Pop system once he learns to score without the ball. He definitely can do that...he just has never been in a system that allows him to do that (other players suck + so/so coaching).

[Rose'sACL]

Go ahead and put melo on spurs for last 3 years. they would have won in 2013, 2014 and would have definitely been title favorites in 2015 playoffs even after warriors were number 1 seed.

Kawhi is a really good player. he is in that top 15 category. Why overrate him?

Player better than kawhi in no order:

LeBron
KD
Harden
Curry
Davis
CP3
Griffin
Melo
Aldridge
Marc Gasol
russel westbrook

Those are 10 players right there.
you can say paul george is as good as kawhi. PG is a slightly worse defender than kwahi but can create offense way better than kawhi.

[Heavincent]

Go ahead and put melo on spurs for last 3 years. they would have won in 2013, 2014 and would have definitely been title favorites in 2015 playoffs even after warriors were number 1 seed.

Melo doesn't fit with the Spurs at all. Too much of a ball stopper. This is obvious.

And the part about them being favorites over GS...I'm getting chills thinking about what Iguodala would do to Melo. Dude held Lebron to what, 35% shooting? Melo would get murdered.

[comerb]

In a game of 1v1, Melo.

If I wanted to win a ring, I'd rather have Kawhi. He's a total package.

[Inferno]

Depends on what you're looking for

[Heavincent]

Depends on what you're looking for

If you're looking for a first round exit, Melo's your guy. Oh yeah, and he might give you a sweet 50+ point game against some lottery team in a meaningless January game.

[Heavincent]

Go ahead and put melo on spurs for last 3 years. they would have won in 2013, 2014 and would have definitely been title favorites in 2015 playoffs even after warriors were number 1 seed.

Kawhi is a really good player. he is in that top 15 category. Why overrate him?

Player better than kawhi in no order:

LeBron
KD
Harden
Davis
CP3
Griffin
Melo
Aldridge
Marc Gasol
russel westbrook

Those are 10 players right there.
you can say paul george is as good as kawhi. PG is a slightly worse defender than kwahi but can create offense way better than kawhi.

So Curry isn't a top 10 player?

You continue to impress with your knowledge.

[Rose'sACL]

Melo doesn't fit with the Spurs at all. Too much of a ball stopper. This is obvious.

And the part about them being favorites over GS...I'm getting chills thinking about what Iguodala would do to Melo. Dude held Lebron to what, 35% shooting? Melo would get murdered.
He is not a ball stopper. He has played on a teams which are dependent on him. He would play a lot differently on the Spurs.
Also, he shot 40% from 3 just one season ago. Spurs will fit with him. he will adjust a little and spurs would adjust a little.

[Rose'sACL]

So Curry isn't a top 10 player?

You continue to impress with your knowledge.
sorry...forgot....edited. Why would you not ask me if i forgot curry instead of posting like that.

[SaltyMeatballs]

Melo - great scorer, selfish as ****, loser, terrible leader, lazy defender, money and honey nut cherrios first

Kawhi - good scorer, great defender, unselfish, winner

Gimme Kawhi.

[Heavincent]

He is not a ball stopper. He has played on a teams which are dependent on him. He would play a lot differently on the Spurs.
Also, he shot 40% from 3 just one season ago. Spurs will fit with him. he will adjust a little and spurs would adjust a little.

What does Melo give the Spurs that they don't already have? They don't need an iso scorer. That's just not how they play.

All Melo would do is **** with their chemistry and make their defense worse (much worse since he would be replacing the DPOY).

[Milbuck]

If you're looking for a first round exit, Melo's your guy. Oh yeah, and he might give you a sweet 50+ point game against some lottery team in a meaningless January game.
Put 2015 Kawhi on the 2013 Knicks with JR Smith and Raymond Felton as his 2nd and 3rd offensive options. Mike Woodson as his coach.

How many games do they win in the regular season and how far do they go in the playoffs?

[Rose'sACL]

What does Melo give the Spurs that they don't already have? They don't need an iso scorer. That's just not how they play.

All Melo would do is **** with their chemistry and make their defense worse (much worse).
they do need an ISO scorer. They would clearly be the best team in the league if they didn't rely on only tim duncan to score when the game plan isn't working.
Spurs would just utilize Melo's 3 point shooting and his godly post game..


Put 2015 Kawhi on the 2013 Knicks with JR Smith and Raymond Felton as his 2nd and 3rd offensive options. Mike Woodson as his coach.

How many games do they win in the regular season and how far do they go in the playoffs?
8th seed at best.

[PickernRoller]

Put 2015 Kawhi on the 2013 Knicks with JR Smith and Raymond Felton as his 2nd and 3rd offensive options. Mike Woodson as his coach.

How many games do they win in the regular season and how far do they go in the playoffs?

They don't, on a weak ass East to boot. Nor do they make it in any year prior.

[rmt]

Absolutely not. The guy is not an offensive threat for any other team in this league - dude lives and thrives under the Pop bubble. He's not a franchise player, simply put. It's nice to play for a team who has legitimate scoring threats 1-5. You don't command all the attention defensively and you can pick off easy baskets as the result of the threat your teamates pose, along with the occasional mismatch or the well ran set. An all energy guy with decent athleticism and large wingspan. His offensive skills however, that's a work in progress that even his high energy play won't improve much past what they already are. There is a difference between being one of the guys and being the guy. I guess with Aldridge being a Spur he will never taste that.

Because of the team he has been on, Leonard hasn't had to be a "typical" franchise player. He's averaged 24, 31.2, 29.1, 31.8 minutes in his 4 years. He's been brought along slowly, has had his stroke re-worked (remember he was a #15 pick - by no means a sure fire choice). He has not had to carry a team the way a franchise player does playing 39-40 minutes/game and being the #1 option because of the big 3. His first year was a lockout year with no training camp and Pop sits most players on the bench for a year anyways learning the system. But he's been elite defensively and will slowly take over more offensive responsibility as Manu and Duncan retire.

[Fallen Angel]

Carmelo is the better offensive player, rebounder, and clutch scorer
Kawhi is the better defender and clutch defender
Both are pretty even in passing and leadership

I'd say Carmelo in general is the better player, but if I were to choose a player that fits best with the Houston Rockets I'd chose Kawhi.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kawhi and this isn't even close.. like I predicted a year ago

[red1]

kawhi is clearly the superior player. dpoy vs low efficiency scoring? no brainer

[PickernRoller]

Because of the team he has been on, Leonard hasn't had to be a "typical" franchise player. He's averaged 24, 31.2, 29.1, 31.8 minutes in his 4 years. He's been brought along slowly, has had his stroke re-worked (remember he was a #15 pick - by no means a sure fire choice). He has not had to carry a team the way a franchise player does playing 39-40 minutes/game and being the #1 option because of the big 3. His first year was a lockout year with no training camp and Pop sits most players on the bench for a year anyways learning the system. But he's been elite defensively and will slowly take over more offensive responsibility as Manu and Duncan retire.

No doubt about his defense and I am looking forward to the other. LeMarcus will still be the man when Duncan/Gino/Parker retires (he's the man now anyway) and the Spurs will likely get a high volume scorer for their PG spot once Parker hangs it up. So there will be a lot of what I call "hiding".... Pop is arguably the best at that. All team-oriented offenses are but his are the definition.

[ZenMaster]

Melo is a better passer, scorer, dribbler, shooter, basically everything but defense. So it depends on what you want. Kawhi on the Knicks instead of Melo would probably average the same #'s he did on the Spurs but on 40% shooting. He doesn't know what it's like to be the only scoring threat on an NBA team.

Offence broken broken down into four elements but defense i just one, love it.. Who's the better screener though?

[DMAVS41]

#1: The only thing you know is your opinion.

#2: I know you better than most - the child claim is a little rich coming from a clown with multiple alts.

Take the L brother.


Sigh...more distractions from the actual debate.

I have 0 alts...I simply changed my name (roughly 5 years ago...LOL) and not once have I posted under my old account doing crazy shit like people with alts actually do.

It's not opinion. It's a fact. The entire league all agrees that Leonard at 5 years 90 million is a great contract.

What more evidence do you need? Reggie just got 5 years 80 million....and you are saying Leonard is on a bad contract? One of the dumbest things I've heard on here lately.

Even if you don't think Leonard is a great (hint...he is)...it's still absurd to say that contract is bad.

[MellowYellow]

Offence broken broken down into four elements but defense i just one, love it.. Who's the better screener though?
Melo is a better screener too, Kawhi is a better perimeter defender and a better help defender. Melo is a better post defender.
There, broke it all down for your simple mind.

[PickernRoller]

Sigh...more distractions from the actual debate.

I have 0 alts...I simply changed my name (roughly 5 years ago...LOL) and not once have I posted under my old account doing crazy shit like people with alts actually do.

It's not opinion. It's a fact. The entire league all agrees that Leonard at 5 years 90 million is a great contract.


"0 alts... just a changed name"...:roll: :roll: :roll: That's ok it's not like I am going to believe you and you know it. Not after all the shit you made up about your brother taking over the account etc.... no one believed that shit then, no one will believe that shit today.....stories change with the times I guess...:oldlol: :oldlol:.... who knows what tomorrow's story is going to be....

"The entire league all agree....." Who voted on that? Where are the receipts?.... Cause last I checked the Spurs were the only ones giving out the check and having a say.

You keep quoting a bad contract to make your case (cause a bad contract helps my case) and follow it up with made up shit full of confirmation bias about the whole league agreeing with you.....and you expect me to take you seriously and not call you a clown..... knowing your history, arguments years ago where I got you good, and basically solidified my opinion on why you're try-hard clown, your past w/ alts being a Kobe troll/troll in general etc........acting like that shit doesn't exist.......

It's disrespectful...to yourself.

Like I said, take the L.

[DMAVS41]

0 alts... changed name...:roll: :roll: :roll: That's ok it's not like I am going to believe you and you know it. Not all the shit you made up about your brother etc....stories change I guess...:oldlol: :oldlol:

"The entire league all agree....." Who votes on that? Cause last I checked the Spurs were the only ones giving out the check.

You keep quoting a bad contract to make your case and follow it up with made up shit full of confirmation bias like the whole league agrees.....and you expect me to take you seriously and not call you clown... knowing your history, past w/ alts etc....:lol :hammerhead:

Like I said, take the L.

Lets just move on from worrying about what anonymous people on the net do. I don't have an alt...nor have I done anything other than talk ball on here from the jump.

It's not confirmation bias.

Find me one basketball article or legit opinion saying that the Leonard contract is bad. Provide some evidence.

Yea...Reggie isn't a good contract, but what you fail to see is what is coming. Once the cap increases....it's going to make the Reggie contract look normal.

Do you understand that Chandler Parsons will likely get a 5 year 100 million dollar deal, at minimum, next summer....and nobody is going to blink at it if he plays his normal game and is healthy all year?

You can't just look at a number without context...which is what you are doing.

Give me your argument. Tell us why Leonard making slightly more than what Draymond Green and Klay Thompson do a year...is a bad contract.

Is Draymond at 5 years 85 million also a bad contract?

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Would Kawhi even be discussed if he wasn't on the Spurs? Kawhi is a great role player. Supersized role player. Not that I would want Anthony who has no concept of team ball.

But wake me up when Kawhi is option 1 on a team, or a perennial all-star. Role players are much easier to replace than bonafide number 1 option superstars.

[DMAVS41]

Would Kawhi even be discussed if he wasn't on the Spurs? Kawhi is a great role player. Supersized role player. Not that I would want Anthony who has no concept of team ball.

But wake me up when Kawhi is option 1 on a team, or a perennial all-star. Role players are much easier to replace than bonafide number 1 option superstars.

This is a big misconception imo.

Yes...he'd be heavily discussed.

He's the best perimeter defender in the league. He has developed into a very good offensive player. He can post on the wing, he can hit 3's, his off the dribble game has improved, he's great in transition....he can play within a team concept on and off the ball.

He's one of the most versatile players on both ends of the floor...

Would people talk about him? Absolutely.

[PickernRoller]

Lets just move on from worrying about what anonymous people on the net do. I don't have an alt...nor have I done anything other than talk ball on here from the jump.

It's not confirmation bias.

Find me one basketball article or legit opinion saying that the Leonard contract is bad. Provide some evidence.

Yea...Reggie isn't a good contract, but what you fail to see is what is coming. Once the cap increases....it's going to make the Reggie contract look normal.

Do you understand that Chandler Parsons will likely get a 5 year 100 million dollar deal, at minimum, next summer....and nobody is going to blink at it if he plays his normal game and is healthy all year?

You can't just look at a number without context...which is what you are doing.

Give me your argument. Tell us why Leonard making slightly more than what Draymond Green and Klay Thompson do a year...is a bad contract.

Is Draymond at 5 years 85 million also a bad contract?

Yes, I would sign Green - 55m for 3, 70m for 5. Dude is an undersized PF that lacks solid post moves. High energy, wide body (helps somewhat post defense), Ok-ish shooter from the perimeter, can shoot the 3 - good recipes for helping your numbers in today's league - solid role player. As for Klay, probably about the same deal Kawhi got - his upside offensively is greater - and what I mean by that is his numbers solidifying, not being up and down while being the focal point of an offense.

Kawhi Leonard can not be a focal point of any offense - currently period. Not only can he not be one, his upside is questionable as to him ever being able to be one when you take into consideration the stress a defense puts on a player when said player becomes the focal point. Outside of the Pop bubble - this becomes an even bigger joke of a proposition. By default that doesn't get him that contract I would argue for many teams looking for a player that can/could provide that. Not all teams need the same thing. I think the Lakers would actually pay that kind of money next year if he were free but other teams like OKC or the Cavs... or the Warriors, or the Rockets...not too sure they'll be as interested given the trade-offs in personal as is the bench. They got all the offense they need - so 20m per for a high energy/elite perimeter defender - nah.... nor is he good enough to command that contract to replace the offensive options on those teams.

As for the whole league agreeing with you - confirmation bias. Not going to argue beyond that. The onus is on you to prove a ridiculous hyperbolic statement - and surprisingly you have not because you can not. Sure a folk or two can agree with you but that's not the generality you present - it's stupid.

I don't give a shit about bad contracts. The NBA has been making those for years...... it's not new. You're asking enthusiast to accept that as support for your argument.

As for your denial of why you're a clown and your previous history...dude you're embarrassing yourself - but I know you don't care - it's ISH after all - that's what makes you a clown. Throwing a sissy fit at my dismissal of your arguments shouldn't be something new to you. In a way you deserve it - usually because the argument is flat out shit or agenda-driven. And we all know, ISH is all about stupid agendas with extremely rare exceptions (definitely not from you).

So, in short, nothing will change.

[ISHGoat]

somewhere in a mcdonalds in NYC, real14 just flipped out on a customer for no reason

[DMAVS41]

Yes, I would sign him 55m for 3, 70m for 5. Dude is an undersized PF that lacks post moves. High energy, wide body, Ok-ish shooter from the perimeter, can shoot the 3 - good recipes for helping your numbers. As for Klay, probably about the same deal Kawhi got - his upside offensively is greater - and what I mean by that is his numbers solidifying, not being up and down while being the focal point of an offense.

Kawhi Leonard can not be a focal point of any offense. By default that doesn't get him that contract I would argue for many teams looking for a player that can/could provide that. Not all teams need the same thing.

As for the whole league agreeing with you - confirmation bias. Not going to argue beyond that. The onus is on you to prove a ridiculous hyperbolic statement.

I don't give a shit about bad contracts. The NBA has been making those for years...... it's not new. You're asking enthusiast to accept that as support for your argument.


You can't call every contract a bad contract though.

At some point you have to acknowledge the market.

If Green, Klay, Parsons, Hayward, Reggie...etc. are all being paid similarly to Leonard....his contract simply isn't bad.

And this is before the increase next year that will see guys get paid way more.

Again...please find me people talking about the Leonard contract as bad. Show me some evidence.

Your arguments aren't good...and you have no support. Not a good look.

[kshutts1]

i think melo is easily the better player but a lot of people think kawhi is the better player.

I just don't get it how kawhi is better than melo. Can someone explain? is this because of defense being overvalued by hipster fans? Defense is important but ability to create offense like carmelo does is even more valuable.
I don't like advanced stats that much, but a lot of people do...

Melo -- 52-56% TS, 11% TRB, 16% AST, 1.7 WS/48 all while being one of the best go-to scorers in the game.

Leonard -- 56-60% TS, 12% TRB, 10% AST, 1.8 WS/48 all while being one of the best defensive players in one of the best team situations in NBA history.

Someone else said that it depends on what you want.. and it does. If you need D, then Leonard is the way to go. If you need scoring, Melo is the way to go. But only if you want to win now. If you want to win 4+ years from now, then it's Leonard.

I think Melo is the better player in a vacuum, and will be for the next year or two, assuming he's healthy. But I'm not gonna sit here and discount how great Leonard has been, either.

But on a tangent, how nasty would Melo look on the Spurs? :eek:

[imdaman99]

Melo doesn't fit with the Spurs at all. Too much of a ball stopper. This is obvious.

And the part about them being favorites over GS...I'm getting chills thinking about what Iguodala would do to Melo. Dude held Lebron to what, 35% shooting? Melo would get murdered.
You go out of your delusional way to bash Melo. We get it you don't like Melo. You even thought Iggy was better than him. We saw Iggy on his own team in Philly, it didn't do so well. Plus he was not nearly as marketable as Melo which is why Philly didn't want him on the team anymore.

What exactly has Kawhi proven on his own team? I only chose Kawhi going forward, but if they were the same age I take Melo 9 times out of 10. Kawhi is a good player but he blew the 2014 Finals when he missed a FT before Ray Allen's 3 and he was ass in this year's 1st round. You might even say that he's cost the Spurs 2 more championships.

Kawhi with JR Smith as his 2nd option? I shudder thinking about such a situation :oldlol:


Melo on the 2012-13 Knicks was not a ball stopper because he had veterans around him. Guess what the Spurs are rich in? :hammerhead:

Get lost troll, stay jumping from wagon to wagon. No different than a branstan.

[atljonesbro]

It's pretty obvious to see that Melo is held to a much higher standard than Leonard which comes with the territory of being the better player

[konex]

Anyone who says Kawhii is an idiot

[PickernRoller]

Get lost troll, stay jumping from wagon to wagon. No different than a branstan.

What wagon did Vincent jumped to? I know he repped the Nets and was solid repping the Lakers and Kobe? Just curious...

I do agree that his Melo opinion is a bit out of hand when it comes to this specific comparison, it's not close.

[rmt]

Yes, I would sign Green - 55m for 3, 70m for 5. Dude is an undersized PF that lacks solid post moves. High energy, wide body (helps somewhat post defense), Ok-ish shooter from the perimeter, can shoot the 3 - good recipes for helping your numbers in today's league - solid role player. As for Klay, probably about the same deal Kawhi got - his upside offensively is greater - and what I mean by that is his numbers solidifying, not being up and down while being the focal point of an offense.

Kawhi Leonard can not be a focal point of any offense - currently period. Not only can he not be one, his upside is questionable as to him ever being able to be one when you take into consideration the stress a defense puts on a player when said player becomes the focal point. Outside of the Pop bubble - this becomes an even bigger joke of a proposition. By default that doesn't get him that contract I would argue for many teams looking for a player that can/could provide that. Not all teams need the same thing. I think the Lakers would actually pay that kind of money next year if he were free but other teams like OKC or the Cavs... or the Warriors, or the Rockets...not too sure they'll be as interested given the trade-offs in personal as is the bench. They got all the offense they need - so 20m per for a high energy/elite perimeter defender - nah.... nor is he good enough to command that contract to replace the offensive options on those teams.

As for the whole league agreeing with you - confirmation bias. Not going to argue beyond that. The onus is on you to prove a ridiculous hyperbolic statement - and surprisingly you have not because you can not. Sure a folk or two can agree with you but that's not the generality you present - it's stupid.

I don't give a shit about bad contracts. The NBA has been making those for years...... it's not new. You're asking enthusiast to accept that as support for your argument.

As for your denial of why you're a clown and your previous history...dude you're embarrassing yourself - but I know you don't care - it's ISH after all - that's what makes you a clown. Throwing a sissy fit at my dismissal of your arguments shouldn't be something new to you. In a way you deserve it - usually because the argument is flat out shit or agenda-driven. And we all know, ISH is all about stupid agendas with extremely rare exceptions (definitely not from you).

So, in short, nothing will change.

I don't agree that all teams wouldn't jump at a chance for him at that price. There aren't many wing players who are elite defenders AND has contributed offensively under pressure as he has. Remember he did his thing on the biggest stage against the best player in the world. And it wasn't a fluke because he performed well the year before in the Finals too. Even a team with Lebron or Durant would want him. He could just play SG as he can guard those too and what defense on the perimeter that would be with him and Lebron.

[PickernRoller]

I don't agree that all teams wouldn't jump at a chance for him at that price. There aren't many wing players who are elite defenders AND has contributed offensively under pressure as he has. Remember he did his thing on the biggest stage against the best player in the world. And it wasn't a fluke because he performed well the year before in the Finals too. Even a team with Lebron or Durant would want him. He could just play SG as he can guard those too and what defense on the perimeter that would be with him and Lebron.

If they could afford him without any issues - of course. If they could afford a star center on a good contract like say, Demarcus or a PF like LMA, they would too. If they're constrained and had to think about choices, I'm pretty sure they'll think twice about inking a long term 20m per year rock on an elite defender.

[smoovegittar]

At this juncture, Melo is the better player. Without question. But Melo is who he is; Kawhi can still raise his game to another level.

I find it funny how much hate Melo gets here. He must be THAT good -

[Papaya Petee]

1 bad season and people forget what Melo can do

Give Kawhi the 08-09 Nuggets or 2013 Knicks see if he comes close to replicating Melos success.

Hint he can't. Hes in a perfect system and hes light years. Behind Melo on the offensive end.

[rmt]

If they could afford him without any issues - of course. If they could afford a star center on a good contract like say, Demarcus or a PF like LMA, they would too. If they're constrained and had to think about choices, I'm pretty sure they'll think twice about inking a long term 20m per year rock on an elite defender.

It's $18m per year and he'll only be 28 at the end of his contract. Corey Joseph is getting $7.5 m per year in comparison - that's how crazy the contracts that are being given out are.

[Legends66NBA7]

1 bad season and people forget what Melo can do

Give Kawhi the 08-09 Nuggets or 2013 Knicks see if he comes close to replicating Melos success.

Hint he can't. Hes in a perfect system and hes light years. Behind Melo on the offensive end.

I can see Kawhi replicating similar success on that Nuggets team but not the Knicks team. Nuggets were great that yewr and I can see Kawhi fitting in nicely. Wouldn't have the same scoring punch but takes them to another level defensively.

[Real14]

Anyone who says Kawhii is an idiot
Preach it brother:applause:

[inclinerator]

melo is easily better

[JohnMax]

In exactly half of Carmelo's playoff games, he's shot 40 percent or less


watch between 2:57 to 3:01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jR90yAyTYY&t=2m57s

33 of 66 games where Melo shot 40 percent or under highlighted in yellow
http://imgur.com/FL5dIOY

[ClipperRevival]

Melo's game was not conducive to winning. Yes, he is one of the best iso scorers in history but that is different from helping you win. If you get your points at the expense of the flow of the offense, you might hurt the team more than help it, even if you score 30 points.

Leonard is like a poor man's Pippen type player. He could never carry an offense like Melo but he brings so many other positives to the table. He won't dominate the ball but play within the flow. Defense, athleticism, ability to generate steals, run the floor andget his own shit once in a while. There is great value in a long, athletic, two way wing in basketball.

[oarabbus]

Melo >>> Leonard


Put Leonard on the Knicks and Melo on the Spurs. Spurs will probably win back to back years. Knicks stay a lottery team even with Kawhi playing 82 (Melo always takes a team to the playoffs when he doesn't miss most of the season)

Melo with Duncan backing him up? Ginobili drawing the defense and kicking it out to him? Pop drawing plays for Melo? It would be NASTY

[ClipperRevival]

Melo >>> Leonard


Put Leonard on the Knicks and Melo on the Spurs. Spurs will probably win back to back years. Knicks stay a lottery team even with Kawhi hurt (Melo takes them to the playoffs when he doesn't miss most of the season)

Melo with Duncan backing him up? Ginobili drawing the defense and kicking it out to him? Pop drawing plays for Melo? It would be NASTY

Ummm no. Spurs play team ball. The ball is constantly moving. Melo would kill the Spurs offensive flow. You put Leonard on any team and his length, athleticism, D, ability to run the floor and decent offensive production still carries with him.

[oarabbus]

Ummm no. Spurs play team ball. The ball is constantly moving. Melo would kill the Spurs offensive flow. You put Leonard on any team and his length, athleticism, D, ability to run the floor and decent offensive production still carries with him.

Spurs play team ball NOW... but they played slow, half court, "east coast" style ball for the first half of Duncan's career or more.

I have 0 doubt in my mind Pop would figure out Melo. If you think (today's) Kawhi on any of the last 3 years' Knicks teams would be playoff bound, I don't really know what to say.

[ClipperRevival]

Spurs play team ball NOW... but they played slow, half court, "east coast" style ball for the first half of Duncan's career or more.

I have 0 doubt in my mind Pop would figure out Melo. If you think (today's) Kawhi on any of the last 3 years' Knicks teams would be playoff bound, I don't really know what to say.

Melo would be relegated to a corner 3 shooter. His talents don't mesh with SA. Sure, you can go iso with him when you need a bucket and he might come through but right now, give me Leonard's all around game. Like I said, there is tremendous value for a long, athletic, two-way wing player in basketball and always will be. Athleticism. Long. Two-way. Three big factors in basketball.

[ClipperRevival]

Jesus Christ, Kawhi has a 7'3" winspan. That's freakish. He's also got huge hands. Really pays off on the D end when you are that long.

[AirFederer]

I think pure scorers who doesn`t play D are dropping in value as we speak. I`ll take 18-22 ppg with top notch D anyday over 25-35 ppg on low FG% and no D.

[JohnMax]

Kawhi has a higher impact than Melo.

Spurs record without him is poor compared to when he's in the lineup.
Before they got Kawhi, they were not a championship level team.