Wes Matthews' deal with Dallas goes from 4/$57M to a max deal: 4 years, $70M

[Rose'sACL]

https://twitter.com/daldridgetnt/status/619274538791141377


why does cuban lose his cool so quickly?

[fiddy]

Thats just pathetic :roll:

[K Xerxes]

Wes ****ing Matthews..

[DMAVS41]

4 years 70 million for a guy coming off the worst injury a basketball player can have.

Wow...what a win for NBA players.

The money is going to be insane in the coming years if this is a sign of things to come.

[Rose'sACL]

what if cuban thinks that Wes is going to be the next Wade like he thought Jordan could be the next Shaq.

[bigkingsfan]

Kings stay winning.

[FireMcFailPlease]

lolol. 4th and 5th best players on their respective teams are getting "max" deals these days. More money than the best players on their former teams are getting if theyre in a current contract.

[SCdac]

holy crap, Matthews and Parsons combining for 110+ million :eek: ... some folks in this article from sep 14' were talking about Matthews getting 8-9 million per.. dude got double that

http://www.blazersedge.com/2014/9/30/6871239/portland-trail-blazers-robin-lopez-wesley-matthews-salary-contract

[oh the horror]

So that whole "oh I told him I won't hold him to his word and he can sign anywhere but he picked us!" Shit Cuban put out there was actually "I threw a shitload of money at him and he accepted" huh?

[imnew09]

Cuban LOL take this fken Ls

[LoneyROY7]

:roll:

[chazzy]

God damn :oldlol:

[KungFuJoe]

Did he just tear his achilles?

He's DONE.

[robert de niro]

cuban has no chill :lol

[oh the horror]

Did he just tear his achilles?

He's DONE.




He ain't done making it rain on b*tches though. Cha-Ching $$$

[bluechox2]

so your telling me cuban had mathews for 14 a year, ready to sign and then said **** it , bid against himself, and gave him 17 a year :lol

hes gonna miss half the start of the season too :lol 8 mil to watch basketball for a few months...congrats mathews

[R.I.P.]

Matthews: They never made it rain like that in Portland. :facepalm

[NugzFan]

Kings stay winning.

Coming from one of losingest teams in recmey history...wtf are you talking about?

[BigNBAfan]

This is why Cuban has 1 ring... idiot. A good fan, boss and owner, horrible GM.

[bigkingsfan]

Coming from one of losingest teams in recmey history...wtf are you talking about?
We're champs, bitch.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/7/21/5925127/2014-las-vegas-summer-league-nba-rockets-kings-results-scores

[chips93]

so your telling me cuban had mathews for 14 a year, ready to sign and then said **** it , bid against himself, and gave him 17 a year :lol

hes gonna miss half the start of the season too :lol 8 mil to watch basketball for a few months...congrats mathews

unless matthews, knowing he was the only worthwhile FA left, had leverage on the mavs to force him to pay him more, or he leaves just like DJ did?

[BlazerRed]

Damn, Dirk would be fumin' if he wasn't taking money under the table from Cuban.

[DMAVS41]

Meanwhile back in Big D...the machine keeps churning...

Mavs add Zaza and his 5.25 million dollar expiring deal.

Perfect Mark!

Lets drive up his value so and then cut him loose...like we do with every player.

Congrats Zaza...you'll start at center for us and average 10/12/3 and someone will pay you 4 years 48 million next summer....

I actually like Zaza...this would be a nice pickup if we had a team.

Enjoy the 9th pick in the draft Boston.

[alanLA92]

Cuban, losing since late 2011. :lol

[tontoz]

Meanwhile back in Big D...the machine keeps churning...

Mavs add Zaza and his 5.25 million dollar expiring deal.

Perfect Mark!

Lets drive up his value so and then cut him loose...like we do with every player.

Congrats Zaza...you'll start at center for us and average 10/12/3 and someone will pay you 4 years 48 million next summer....

I actually like Zaza...this would be a nice pickup if we had a team.

Enjoy the 9th pick in the draft Boston.


Zaza will drive you nuts after you've watched him play awhile. His scoring efficiency sucks, he is clumsy with the ball and is a terrible defender. He is weak on the defensive glass too.

I was following the Hawks when he was there (used to live in Atlanta) and he is just a scrub.

[DMAVS41]

Cuban, losing since late 2003. :lol


Fixed that for you.

Look it up. We blew up a 60 win team to add Jamison and Antoine Walker in order to play Dirk at center.

:applause:

[33teeth]

recmey history uh...
wtf are you talking about?

[JimmyMcAdocious]

I thought Zaza was decent for the Bucks last year tho.

Matthews deal? Cuban has lost his goddamn mind.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

The Matthews deal was made before Deandre verbally agreed. David Aldridge has already reported about it. Depending on Deandre the Mavs had already agreed to give Matthews the deal. If he didn't come, Matthews got more. If he came then he would have gotten less.

But I know, that requires reading and most would prefer to post tldr gifs and emojis.

The contract in itself is meaningless anyway because the Mavs are not "competing" next year.

[disel]

Dallas will be lucky to be a 8th seed:roll:

[Smook A.]

Wes is probably on his knees right now thanking god that DeAndre left for the Clips. More money in his pocket!

[IGOTGAME]

The Matthews deal was made before Deandre verbally agreed. David Aldridge has already reported about it. Depending on Deandre the Mavs had already agreed to give Matthews the deal. If he didn't come, Matthews got more. If he came then he would have gotten less.

But I know, that requires reading and most would prefer to post tldr gifs and emojis.

The contract in itself is meaningless anyway because the Mavs are not "competing" next year.
You ask Dirk to play for peanuts to sign Wes Matthews to 17 million a year. Yea...that looks good to other stars coming in. Next guy won't take Cuban serious when he says play for less. Matthews may never be a good NBA player again...he could be out the league. An Achilles injury for a guard especially is no joke

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

You ask Dirk to play for peanuts to sign Wes Matthews to 17 million a year. Yea...that looks good to other stars coming in. Next guy won't take Cuban serious when he says play for less. Matthews may never be a good NBA player again...he could be out the league. An Achilles injury for a guard especially is no joke

Matthews is overpaid. No question about that. But in tank mode, does it really matter if he is overpaid? Nope.

[IGOTGAME]

Matthews is overpaid. No question about that. But in tank mode, does it really matter if he is overpaid? Nope.

It's 4 years. Cuban promised Dirk he'd put a team around him to compete. Instead you got Wes Matthews, a bench player now, getting 17 million a year while Dirk is getting 8.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

It's 4 years. Cuban promised Dirk he'd put a team around him to compete. Instead you got Wes Matthews, a bench player now, getting 17 million a year while Dirk is getting 8.

And? The Mavs tried. They had Jordan verbally agree then he "manned up" like Catlyn Jenner.

I'm sure Dirk isn't too happy about it. But had Dirk not taken a pay cut the Mavs couldn't even have **met** with players like Jordan.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Cubes should have never blown up that 2011 team..

[Heavincent]

Cubes should have never blown up that 2011 team..

Eh, that team wasn't winning another title. Dirk and Terry both had sharp declines shortly after 2011.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Cubes should have never blown up that 2011 team..

And that is the bottom line. Cuban has never experienced a truly bad team a la Philly. He had Dirk to basically carry him for those 15 years.So when you are that close to a championship, you don't Wayne Hyzenga it.

Oh well. Mavs are going to be bad for a long time. So arguing over who signs where is pretty pointless from here on out. They will be terrible until that get another franchise star. And the draft is the most viable option to get that star.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Eh, that team wasn't winning another title. Dirk and Terry both had sharp declines shortly after 2011.

Terry was still producing on a playoff team this year, and was still averaging 15 ppg in 2012

They brought Chandler back as it is, giving up a first round pick in the proccess to pay Chandler the money they didn't want to pay him 3 years earlier.

In a lockout season anything can happen, Dallas had chemistry on their side and in a shortened season that would have been huge

they would have at least competed in 2012, and having Tyson/Dirk going forward as your two biggest pieces would have been better than what they ended up doing

Cubes didn't think Tyson was worth the money, well jokes on Cubes because Tyson 5 years later is still getting that type of money, and Cuban did all of this to land D Will or Dwight.. neither of which really even considered going to Dallas

[DMAVS41]

And that is the bottom line. Cuban has never experienced a truly bad team a la Philly. He had Dirk to basically carry him for those 15 years.So when you are that close to a championship, you don't Wayne Hyzenga it.

Oh well. Mavs are going to be bad for a long time. So arguing over who signs where is pretty pointless from here on out. They will be terrible until that get another franchise star. And the draft is the most viable option to get that star.


Could not agree more with the bold.

[DMAVS41]

Terry was still producing on a playoff team this year, and was still averaging 15 ppg in 2012

They brought Chandler back as it is, giving up a first round pick in the proccess to pay Chandler the money they didn't want to pay him 3 years earlier.

In a lockout season anything can happen, Dallas had chemistry on their side and in a shortened season that would have been huge

they would have at least competed in 2012, and having Tyson/Dirk going forward as your two biggest pieces would have been better than what they ended up doing

Cubes didn't think Tyson was worth the money, well jokes on Cubes because Tyson 5 years later is still getting that type of money, and Cuban did all of this to land D Will or Dwight.. neither of which really even considered going to Dallas


yea, but he didn't blow up the team. Barea couldn't have come back at that price and some other guys essentially retired.

It all comes to Tyson. And looking back now...yea, it was a clear mistake as we've wasted the last 5 years.

But at least back then we had CP3 and Howard as our targets...legit hall of famers and elite players.

Now? We blew up a really good team for the likes of Parsons, Wes, and DJ....

Huge difference imo. One has legit risk/reward potential...and we had a fallback plan if it didn't work (we had a really good team still in 12)...and the other the risk/reward doesn't make sense....and we had no backup plan.

So while I think Cuban has done a poor job overall, I think letting Tyson walk in 11 makes sense given the circumstances.

What we've done since then? Makes no sense and Cuban better be paying Dirk 100 million as a Mavs executive once he retires.

[ShackEelOKneel]

Well he got his $15M+ now.

[SwishSquared]

I hope Wes recovers well from his injury, but this has the potential to be an awful contract going forward if it's fully guaranteed and he has trouble playing post-Achilles tear. Could really be an albatross even with the cap jump.

[christian1923]

Do they expect him to average over 20 PPG?

[DMAVS41]

I hope Wes recovers well from his injury, but this has the potential to be an awful contract going forward if it's fully guaranteed and he has trouble playing post-Achilles tear. Could really be an albatross even with the cap jump.

The good news is that if he's just done....we can't compete anyway....so it will just help the tank over the next couple years.

If he's back....the turnaround could be much quicker.

So I don't think this contract hurts us much either way at this point. Only way it hurts is if we somehow land a superstar next summer. Then it's killer if he can't play anymore....I consider the possibility we land a superstar remote to say the least.

[SwishSquared]

The good news is that if he's just done....we can't compete anyway....so it will just help the tank over the next couple years.

If he's back....the turnaround could be much quicker.

So I don't think this contract hurts us much either way at this point. Only way it hurts is if we somehow land a superstar next summer. Then it's killer if he can't play anymore....I consider the possibility we land a superstar remote to say the least.That's a good point- he's not obstructing the tank (or at least that's what I expect) and you may not land any big names next summer.

The upside is he's still a good player but if he's not, it's just dead weight to carry. Might not impact free agency much, if at all, but I'm still shocked he got maxed out off an Achilles tear.

Fwiw, both likely stay with their teams, but Jordan Clarkson and Whiteside are available next summer as young-ish building blocks. Top 3 pick + a couple guys like that, and you have a decent young core.

[DMAVS41]

That's a good point- he's not obstructing the tank (or at least that's what I expect) and you may not land any big names next summer.

The upside is he's still a good player but if he's not, it's just dead weight to carry. Might not impact free agency much, if at all, but I'm still shocked he got maxed out off an Achilles tear.

Fwiw, both likely stay with their teams, but Jordan Clarkson and Whiteside are available next summer as young-ish building blocks. Top 3 pick + a couple guys like that, and you have a decent young core.

We'll see...we've avoided going after young guys like that for a long time.

Like this off season...we have Wes Matthews 4 years 70 million but don't even try to sign Middleton to a max offer sheet? It's just bad management...bad isn't even the word. It's horrible.

One guy is going on 29 and has a torn achilles...the other guy is ****ing 23 years old with a higher ceiling than Wes as a player.

The fact that no teams offered Middleton the max should tell everyone here just how bad half the front offices are in the league. ****ing Enes Kanter is going to get a max offer sheet, but Middleton can't?

So...so...so...dumb.

[sfballa13]

We'll see...we've avoided going after young guys like that for a long time.

Like this off season...we have Wes Matthews 4 years 70 million but don't even try to sign Middleton to a max offer sheet? It's just bad management...bad isn't even the word. It's horrible.

One guy is going on 29 and has a torn achilles...the other guy is ****ing 23 years old with a higher ceiling than Wes as a player.

The fact that no teams offered Middleton the max should tell everyone here just how bad half the front offices are in the league. ****ing Enes Kanter is going to get a max offer sheet, but Middleton can't?

So...so...so...dumb.


Portland knew that OKC would match they signed Kanter to fcuk with OKC's cap and tax situation. They had nothing to lose and now just gained the favor of tons of teams in the West who may be willing to help them out down the line for weakening OKC by forcing them to max Kanter out.

The Bucks traded Ilyasova for unguaranteed contracts (cap space) in order to max out Middleton. No team was going to waste the free agency period waiting for the Bucks to match.

If you are going to act so, so, so, dumb, don't bother commenting and wasting people's time

[SwishSquared]

We'll see...we've avoided going after young guys like that for a long time.

The fact that no teams offered Middleton the max should tell everyone here just how bad half the front offices are in the league. ****ing Enes Kanter is going to get a max offer sheet, but Middleton can't?

So...so...so...dumb.:roll: It's pretty bad man. I've said it before, but some of the more intelligent posters on this site would actually make more rational decisions working in a FO than some of the guys running franchises.

I still don't get how Middleton didn't get a max offer. He got sold short. Especially since the Bucks didn't even use that extra space for anything this year.

However, Portland knew OKC had to hang onto Kanter basically and gave them a pretty bad contract to deal with. Smart chess move by the Blazers, considering they're out of the playoffs for a while. Gotta stick one to a division rival once in a while.

[DMAVS41]

Portland knew that OKC would match they signed Kanter to fcuk with OKC's cap and tax situation. They had nothing to lose and now just gained the favor of tons of teams in the West who may be willing to help them out down the line for weakening OKC by forcing them to max Kanter out.

The Bucks traded Ilyasova for unguaranteed contracts (cap space) in order to max out Middleton. No team was going to waste the free agency period waiting for the Bucks to match.

If you are going to act so, so, so, dumb, don't bother commenting and wasting people's time

Hey clown....you do it for the same reason. To **** with the Bucks and worst case scenario is you make them pay more. Best case is you get a great 23 year old player.

Are you serious with this shit? It's just a much better Kanter situation because any team would be happy to have Middleton...Kanter at the max actually hurts you.

Yea...what a waste it would have been for the Lakers or Sixers to sign Middleton to a max offer. They just had so much to lose....

Same thing for the Mavs....you agree to a deal with Tyson (could have used his bird rights regardless of the other stuff) right off the bat...then go hunting.

Don't bother commenting? You didn't think your position through at all. Please do so next time.

[coin24]

Why up the offer to Matthews but?:oldlol:

This is karma DMavs for being a dick in the lakers thread the other day, guess your team is now the bottom feeder :cheers:

[DMAVS41]

Why up the offer to Matthews but?:oldlol:

This is karma DMavs for being a dick in the lakers thread the other day, guess your team is now the bottom feeder :cheers:

We didn't up the offer. The deal was agreed upon before DJ signed. If DJ came...the deal was worth less...if he didn't...it was worth more.

Being a dick? LOL...thinking the Lakers should go for a top 3 pick is not being a dick.

The Mavs should do the same thing I was advocating the Lakers do...tank.

[pastis]

how is the relationship between parsons and matthews? i guess that the ball and shots are going through their hands.

i hope not, i hope dirk gets free to shoot 20-24 times a game. he sacrified a lot, tried a lot for cntending, but was betrayed... so give him now his last free-shooting year


edit: what i dont understand is why mavs were so shy to give monta like 11-12 mio a year.... that makes no senes. ok it seems to be that he was a locker room killer and that the FO wasnt satsfied with his atitude and developping....but still, is this even true? lol. watching Dirk and monta it teally didnt seem so
mavs are only taking big Ls.


btw:


Blake/CP3 $41M

Harden/Dwight $38M

Durant/Westbrook $37M

Parsons/Matthews $33M (All-Star appearances ZERO, All-NBA teams ZERO, healthy legs TWO)

Aldridge/Parker $33M

Randolph/Gasol $30M

Curry/Thompson $27M

[The-Legend-24]

Nikka just had achilles surgery too :roll:

Dirk lowkey fuming after this :oldlol:

[coin24]

We didn't up the offer. The deal was agreed upon before DJ signed. If DJ came...the deal was worth less...if he didn't...it was worth more.

Being a dick? LOL...thinking the Lakers should go for a top 3 pick is not being a dick.

The Mavs should do the same thing I was advocating the Lakers do...tank.


Loser mentality, will suit your team now..

Lakers have enough talent and may add more to make a push for a playoff spot.
Especially with other western teams falling off, we're not bad enough to finish bottom 3..

[el gringos]

Huge over pay, and then add 13 mill on top? Such a dis respectful way to treat dirk taking the salary he did.


Makes the parsons deal look better

[DMAVS41]

Loser mentality, will suit your team now..

Lakers have enough talent and may add more to make a push for a playoff spot.
Especially with other western teams falling off, we're not bad enough to finish bottom 3..

And me simply thinking that the rewards of making a playoff push don't compare to the rewards of getting Ben Simmons....isn't hating.

Best case scenario...the Lakers make the playoffs and lose in round 1 doing it your way.

Best case scenario...the Lakers get Ben Simmons in the draft...doing it my way.

Considering there is virtually no risk whatsoever to just playing all the young guys a lot of minutes and taking some chances on prospects...I think that answer here is to go my route.

You can disagree...and many do, but don't call it hating or being a dick.

[GIF REACTION]

Kings dodged a ****ing bullet. This dude is getting near max figures? Lmao. Mark Cuban gon' Mark Cuban. Dumb-ass owner. Poorly run franchise.

[SwishSquared]

And me simply thinking that the rewards of making a playoff push don't compare to the rewards of getting Ben Simmons....isn't hating.

Best case scenario...the Lakers make the playoffs and lose in round 1 doing it your way.

Best case scenario...the Lakers get Ben Simmons in the draft...doing it my way.

Considering there is virtually no risk whatsoever to just playing all the young guys a lot of minutes and taking some chances on prospects...I think that answer here is to go my route.

You can disagree...and many do, but don't call it hating or being a dick.Maybe I'm a hater but the moves they've made this year make the Lakers just good enough to lose their pick this year. I think they're a mid lotto team.

Would have been better to avoid trading for Hibbert and tank on.

[DMAVS41]

Maybe I'm a hater but the moves they've made this year make the Lakers just good enough to lose their pick this year. I think they're a mid lotto team.

Would have been better to avoid trading for Hibbert and tank on.

Yea. Anything can happen, but the Lakers look like a team that will win somewhere around 30 to 35 games.

That seems ripe to send the Sixers like the 7th pick or something.

I just don't see the upside here.

The Sonics/Thunder won 20 and 23 games back to back years in KD's first 2 years. They then won 50 the next year.

This notion that being bad makes it impossible to develop young guys is just false.

I'd get it if there was real upside, but I don't see it...and if they were going to take on money. They should have gone after guys that make sense long term.

Like that Middleton character I keep mentioning....at least go for a 23 year old 2 way stud if you are going to not tank.

[SwishSquared]

Yea. Anything can happen, but the Lakers look like a team that will win somewhere around 30 to 35 games.

That seems ripe to send the Sixers like the 7th pick or something.

I just don't see the upside here.

The Sonics/Thunder won 20 and 23 games back to back years in KD's first 2 years. They then won 50 the next year.

This notion that being bad makes it impossible to develop young guys is just false.

I'd get it if there was real upside, but I don't see it...and if they were going to take on money. They should have gone after guys that make sense long term.

Like that Middleton character I keep mentioning....at least go for a 23 year old 2 way stud if you are going to not tank.Absolutely agree, man, like we normally do. You can be bad and develop talent and have a good culture. Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Simmons seems like a generational piece, too- is gunning for the 7th pick worth it? Not to me.

If anything, this just shows that patience in building a squad may be one of the key traits a FO needs. Hinkie may have a very nice draft next year, courtesy of Jim Buss lol.

I love Middleton and am still surprised nobody made a move for him, especially once Danny Green and Carroll were spoken for.

[NugzFan]

Kings dodged a ****ing bullet. This dude is getting near max figures? Lmao. Mark Cuban gon' Mark Cuban. Dumb-ass owner. Poorly run franchise.

The irony of this is going to make my brain explode.

[GIF REACTION]

The irony of this is going to make my brain explode.
Nothing ironic about signing all-stars and champions...

There's something to be said about re-signing a GM you already got rid of before... Talk about management confusion and dysfunction...

[DMAVS41]

Absolutely agree, man, like we normally do. You can be bad and develop talent and have a good culture. Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Simmons seems like a generational piece, too- is gunning for the 7th pick worth it? Not to me.

If anything, this just shows that patience in building a squad may be one of the key traits a FO needs. Hinkie may have a very nice draft next year, courtesy of Jim Buss lol.

I love Middleton and am still surprised nobody made a move for him, especially once Danny Green and Carroll were spoken for.

People make fun of the Sixers, but they've only been doing this for 2 years under Hinkie.

If the Sixers get lucky...they literally could get Ben Simmons and Jaylen Brown or something like that....or I really like that guy Malik Newman...dude has great size for a guard. They need a guard.

Levert won't go that high...maybe not top 15, but I think that dude is going to be a very good NBA player. Dude can shoot...lights out. Perhaps the Sixers get him with one of their many firsts this coming season....probably that Thunder pick.

LOL...Simmons, Brown/Newman, and Levert/Jamal Murray....with the kind of core they have?

Holy shit....and they have those pick swaps and Stauskas.

[NugzFan]

Nothing ironic about signing all-stars and champions...

There's something to be said about re-signing a GM you already got rid of before... Talk about management confusion and dysfunction...


The irony is a kings fan talking about poorly run franchises and dysfunction.

The Kings define those

[GIF REACTION]

The irony is a kings fan talking about poorly run franchises and dysfunction.

The Kings define those
Ever hear the phrase "Haters gonna hate?"

We continue to win Free Agency, signing all-stars and champions, and they still continue to hate. The outside noise is irrelevant. Kings making moves.

[Out_In_Utah]

Ever hear the phrase "Haters gonna hate?"

We continue to win Free Agency, signing all-stars and champions, and they still continue to miss the playoffs. The outside noise is irrelevant. Kings making moves.
:lol

[GIF REACTION]

Kings are going to whoop Utah's ass so ****ing hard next season. Nuggets too. I am DROOLING at the thought of it.

[SwishSquared]

People make fun of the Sixers, but they've only been doing this for 2 years under Hinkie.

If the Sixers get lucky...they literally could get Ben Simmons and Jaylen Brown or something like that....or I really like that guy Malik Newman...dude has great size for a guard. They need a guard.

Levert won't go that high...maybe not top 15, but I think that dude is going to be a very good NBA player. Dude can shoot...lights out. Perhaps the Sixers get him with one of their many firsts this coming season....probably that Thunder pick.

LOL...Simmons, Brown/Newman, and Levert/Jamal Murray....with the kind of core they have?

Holy shit....and they have those pick swaps and Stauskas.I think it's very likely all their 1st rounders convey next year and they basically restock the cupboard with talented players. They found some nice diamonds in the rough in Hollis Thompson and Robert Covington. But they should add 2 blue chip guys (assuming we're right about the Lakers) and pick up 2 decent rotation players.

I thought Saric would come in 2017 but it looks like he wants to come next summer. Throw in whatever Embiid gives in 2016-2017 if he sits out again this year and this squad can be stocked with young talent still on rookie deals. I legit wouldn't be surprised if they trade Noel straight up on draft night for another high lotto pick so they land Newman/Simmons/Labisserie.

Getting Stauskas for nothing was pretty smart and get this: if the SAC pick conveys in 2019 (good shot of this happening instead of 2018), it's fully unprotected. Boogie can leave in summer of 2018. A Boogie-less Sacramento squad can lose its pick rofl.

Philly could be a 2nd round playoff team in 2019 (or better, who knows), and could end up with a top 5 draft pick :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

I think it's very likely all their 1st rounders convey next year and they basically restock the cupboard with talented players. They found some nice diamonds in the rough in Hollis Thompson and Robert Covington. But they should add 2 blue chip guys (assuming we're right about the Lakers) and pick up 2 decent rotation players.

I thought Saric would come in 2017 but it looks like he wants to come next summer. Throw in whatever Embiid gives in 2016-2017 if he sits out again this year and this squad can be stocked with young talent still on rookie deals. I legit wouldn't be surprised if they trade Noel straight up on draft night for another high lotto pick so they land Newman/Simmons/Labisserie.

Getting Stauskas for nothing was pretty smart and get this: if the SAC pick conveys in 2019 (good shot of this happening instead of 2018), it's fully unprotected. Boogie can leave in summer of 2018. A Boogie-less Sacramento squad can lose its pick rofl.

Philly could be a 2nd round playoff team in 2019 (or better, who knows), and could end up with a top 5 draft pick :oldlol:

The fact that there is no protection on that 2019 Kings pick is one of the most absurd things ever. Like you said, the Sixers could be a 55 win team and get the first pick in the draft. ROFL....

And yea....they are almost for sure getting the Lakers, Heat, and Thunder picks this season. I can't imagine the Heat or Thunder not conveying....

[SwishSquared]

The fact that there is no protection on that 2019 Kings pick is one of the most absurd things ever. Like you said, the Sixers could be a 55 win team and get the first pick in the draft. ROFL....

And yea....they are almost for sure getting the Lakers, Heat, and Thunder picks this season. I can't imagine the Heat or Thunder not conveying....You already probably know this but it's still so funny:

If Sacramento has a top 10 pick the next 2 drafts, that means the Kings' obligation 1st round pick to the Bulls becomes a 2nd rounder in 2017. There's a pretty good chance I think that happens. Otherwise, Philly lands another decent first for basically nothing in the worst case scenario in 2018.

Best-case means Philly has that 2019 unprotected pick on lock. If the Kings are that bad, Boogie's not re-signing in 2018 and could even get traded before then (where those pick swaps become juicy for the 2018 draft). Hinkie stays winning! Honestly I'd be surprised if in 2019 Philly isn't a dangerous team. They in theory should have lots of really talented guys and decent cap space to build out the core.

I don't foresee Heat or Thunder dealing with those types of injuries this year. I do think a major hit to Wade or Bosh could affect that, but they have enough passable depth that they don't have to ride them as hard.

[DMAVS41]

You already probably know this but it's still so funny:

If Sacramento has a top 10 pick the next 2 drafts, that means the Kings' obligation 1st round pick to the Bulls becomes a 2nd rounder in 2017. There's a pretty good chance I think that happens. Otherwise, Philly lands another decent first for basically nothing in the worst case scenario in 2018.

Best-case means Philly has that 2019 unprotected pick on lock. If the Kings are that bad, Boogie's not re-signing in 2018 and could even get traded before then (where those pick swaps become juicy for the 2018 draft). Hinkie stays winning! Honestly I'd be surprised if in 2019 Philly isn't a dangerous team. They in theory should have lots of really talented guys and decent cap space to build out the core.

I don't foresee Heat or Thunder dealing with those types of injuries this year. I do think a major hit to Wade or Bosh could affect that, but they have enough passable depth that they don't have to ride them as hard.

Even with a hit to Wade...Dragic/Bosh on that team is enough to get into the playoffs imo.

This is the big year for the Sixers in the draft imo....they are likely going to have 4 first rounders. Perhaps two top 5 picks in that 4 as well.

Hinkie has done an amazing job. That Holiday for Noel and first rounder trade is one of the greatest on paper trades in NBA history for a rebuilding team. Just crazy good.

I do think that the Sixers could have been a little more active seeking out long term value in free agency this year, but then again....that Stauskas trade with the pick swaps probably trumps even signing Middleton to a max offer. They could have done both, but really nothing to criticize here.

I don't think the average person understands the upside potential of that trade.

And forget the future...Stauskas is a good player and is exactly the kind of guy they'll need if they get good next to all those bigs.

[SwishSquared]

Even with a hit to Wade...Dragic/Bosh on that team is enough to get into the playoffs imo.

This is the big year for the Sixers in the draft imo....they are likely going to have 4 first rounders. Perhaps two top 5 picks in that 4 as well.

Hinkie has done an amazing job. That Holiday for Noel and first rounder trade is one of the greatest on paper trades in NBA history for a rebuilding team. Just crazy good.

I do think that the Sixers could have been a little more active seeking out long term value in free agency this year, but then again....that Stauskas trade with the pick swaps probably trumps even signing Middleton to a max offer. They could have done both, but really nothing to criticize here.

I don't think the average person understands the upside potential of that trade.

And forget the future...Stauskas is a good player and is exactly the kind of guy they'll need if they get good next to all those bigs.It would have been smart for Hinkie to offer the full 4 year max, with trade kicker and player option on Year 4, to Middleton basically as a low-risk, high-reward move. Either it gives Bucks fewer years of KM under contract at higher annual cost + trade kicker, or you get very valuable years of a monster 23-year old on a contract that doesn't affect your ability to execute that Kings' heist. Overall, he had a great summer though.

You're right about the Heat- I'm also looking forward to seeing Dragic re-create his magic. I think he'll have a good year- he really thrives playing with bigs who have reliable outside Js and he's been a beast finishing in the restricted area. Where do you have them in the East? I think they're top 4 for sure. I guess it depends on how much Wade rests.

Agreed on needing to knock this draft out. The picks not conveying this year delayed it for a year. I was a little surprised 76ers didn't consolidate 2nd rounders + cap space to do a deal on draft night, but it didn't matter after the Stauskas trade. I do like their pick of R. Holmes- he's actually, in theory anyway, a good fit alongside all of Noel/Embiid/Okafor with his shot-blocking, rebounding, and floor spacing.

Also, I don't think the average person quite understands the value of rebuilding this way- completely gutting the roster to hoard picks + cap space. They pick up castoffs on sweet deals or via trade. His moves for Noel and Stauskas are downright amazing.

I think only intelligent hoops junkies get it, and even then, they need to understand EV, modeling, and asset evaluation. So few fans understand that stuff now, but maybe they will in the future. Hinkie hasn't really messed up based on what he's been dealt, other than completely punting on free agency so he keeps his odds of top 3 picks very high.

My bad for writing so much...lol

[DMAVS41]

It would have been smart for Hinkie to offer the full 4 year max, with trade kicker and player option on Year 4, to Middleton basically as a low-risk, high-reward move. Either it gives Bucks fewer years of KM under contract at higher annual cost + trade kicker, or you get very valuable years of a monster 23-year old on a contract that doesn't affect your ability to execute that Kings' heist. Overall, he had a great summer though.

Agreed on needing to knock this draft out. The picks not conveying this year delayed it for a year. I was a little surprised 76ers didn't consolidate 2nd rounders + cap space to do a deal on draft night, but it didn't matter after the Stauskas trade. I do like their pick of R. Holmes- he's actually, in theory anyway, a good fit alongside all of Noel/Embiid/Okafor with his shot-blocking, rebounding, and floor spacing.

Also, I don't think the average person quite understands the value of rebuilding this way- completely gutting the roster to hoard picks + cap space. They pick up castoffs on sweet deals or via trade. His moves for Noel and Stauskas are downright amazing. I think only intelligent hoops junkies get it, and even then, they need to understand EV, modeling, and asset evaluation. So few fans understand that stuff now, but maybe they will in the future. Hinkie hasn't really messed up based on what he's been dealt, other than completely punting on free agency so he keeps his odds of top 3 picks very high.

Yep. If the goal is to win the title...this is clearly the best, and really only, way to build a champion from scratch in this era of the NBA.

Punting on free agency could come back to haunt Hinkie just a little (it won't ever hurt a lot) if this team progresses quickly. Having a quality player or two on deals during these last 2 free agency periods before the increase could have paid huge dividends for them not only for the team, but for trading purposes as well.

Not a huge deal, but I do think they should have been active and looking for value for 25 and under guys.

[Jailblazers7]

Also, I don't think the average person quite understands the value of rebuilding this way- completely gutting the roster to hoard picks + cap space. They pick up castoffs on sweet deals or via trade. His moves for Noel and Stauskas are downright amazing.

I think only intelligent hoops junkies get it, and even then, they need to understand EV, modeling, and asset evaluation. So few fans understand that stuff now, but maybe they will in the future. Hinkie hasn't really messed up based on what he's been dealt, other than completely punting on free agency so he keeps his odds of top 3 picks very high.

My bad for writing so much...lol

I don't think it's that so many people don't get it. It is just very difficult to be this patient. Sixers have a perfect storm of understanding ownership and fans that has allowed Hinkie to play this out. I completely understand the strategy but, as a Sixers fan, it is very hard not to get frustrated.

[SwishSquared]

Yep. If the goal is to win the title...this is clearly the best, and really only, way to build a champion from scratch in this era of the NBA.

Punting on free agency could come back to haunt Hinkie just a little (it won't ever hurt a lot) if this team progresses quickly. Having a quality player or two on deals during these last 2 free agency periods before the increase could have paid huge dividends for them not only for the team, but for trading purposes as well.

Not a huge deal, but I do think they should have been active and looking for value for 25 and under guys.I agree- especially with trying to lock up guys 25 and under. Realistically, since we both expected Bucks to match anything, they could have snagged Corey Jospeh, Aminu, and Ed Davis. Not many of the RFAs worth having weren't going to get matched without a S&T and the UFAs worth having, he didn't get. I think these contracts will be great trade assets or just fair prices when the cap leaps. Especially since Noell's extension-eligible next summer.

I get why they didn't sign Aminu or Davis (trying to develop J. Grant and their bigs). Joseph would have been nice, but maybe he wanted to go back to his hometown or continue being a part of a playoff team.

If this rebuild pays off and there isn't a lotto reform, then this will become a blueprint more teams follow. Just requires a lot of patience from fans, front office, and ownership. Tricky, but doable.

[SwishSquared]

I don't think it's that so many people don't get it. It is just very difficult to be this patient. Sixers have a perfect storm of understanding ownership and fans that has allowed Hinkie to play this out. I completely understand the strategy but, as a Sixers fan, it is very hard not to get frustrated.This is a good point. It requires fans, management, and owners to all be patient. This is the first time we've seen a team do it to this extent, I think. It just seems so many people I come across knock this rebuild strategy even if it's correct.

[DMAVS41]

I agree- especially with trying to lock up guys 25 and under. Realistically, since we both expected Bucks to match anything, they could have snagged Corey Jospeh, Aminu, and Ed Davis. Not many RFAs worth having were going to get matched without a S&T.

I get why they didn't sign Aminu or Davis (trying to develop J. Grant and their bigs). Joseph would have been nice, but maybe he wanted to go back to his hometown or continue being a part of a playoff team.

If this rebuild pays off and there isn't a lotto reform, then this will become a blueprint more teams follow. Just requires a lot of patience from fans, front office, and ownership. Tricky, but doable.

Yea, but I really think smart fans will get it.

The question you ask is simple.

Would you rather be a fringe playoff team with no chance to contend over the next 4 years...with an average future? Or would you rather be terrible for 3 years and have the possibility at a 12 year run as a contender?

I think once presented with the risk/reward scenarios....fans will understand.

Put it this way...if the Sixers win around 50 every year for the next 12 years....people will be all about this method.

You get a Dirk or Duncan or Shaq or Lebron or Durant or Curry or Davis....the risk/reward is just too great to pass up.

[SwishSquared]

Yea, but I really think smart fans will get it.

The question you ask is simple.

Would you rather be a fringe playoff team with no chance to contend over the next 4 years...with an average future? Or would you rather be terrible for 3 years and have the possibility at a 12 year run as a contender?

I think once presented with the risk/reward scenarios....fans will understand.

Put it this way...if the Sixers win around 50 every year for the next 12 years....people will be all about this method.

You get a Dirk or Duncan or Shaq or Lebron or Durant or Curry or Davis....the risk/reward is just too great to pass up.That's true. It makes too much sense to not try to acquire a superstar via draft or trade. To get one via trade, you gotta have the right mix of picks, cap space, and young guys to send out.

I think some fans may not quite see it that way, though they should. Maybe too many NBA fans or talking heads are trolls.

I've been following this rebuild very closely since that Jrue trade went down. The potential collection of high end talent that should be on this roster by next summer is tantalizing as an NBA fan. I mean, once LBJ declines in the next few years, the Bucks and 76ers could have some slugfest playoff series.

[PP34Deuce]

The contract you give for 70 million should be a Klay Thompson case.

Young under 26 year old player that could potentially be better.

Wes is 29 and peaked athletically and playing wise. he is what he is for the next 3-4 years. He's a good defender that can shoot his 3's.

DJ situation messed it up for Cuban because I don't think Cuban really wanted to pay him even the 57 million. PR nightmare if he rescinded his offer.

[DMAVS41]

That's true. It makes too much sense to not try to acquire a superstar via draft or trade. To get one via trade, you gotta have the right mix of picks, cap space, and young guys to send out.

I think some fans may not quite see it that way, though they should. Maybe too many NBA fans or talking heads are trolls.

I've been following this rebuild very closely since that Jrue trade went down. The potential collection of high end talent that should be on this roster by next summer is tantalizing as an NBA fan. I mean, once LBJ declines in the next few years, the Bucks and 76ers could have some slugfest playoff series.

The reason it's so attractive is because so many franchises suck for prolonged periods while not doing it on purpose.

It's not like "trying to be good" makes you good. It, more often than not, results in rushing the process.

Look at the Pelicans right now. Sure, they are good and will make the playoffs, but they wasted the last 2 years rushing the process with that Holiday and some of their other moves like signing Gordon to that big deal. For what? To maybe make the playoffs and lose in round 1? Not worth it when you give up Noel and a first rounder for that...not worth it at all.

And then Pelicans fans will complain about AD's lack of help once they become a legit contending team and they'd wish they had developed Aminu, kept Noel and the draft pick and built organically.

[Paul George 24]

He Dersereved,,,,,,,,,,,
He Is Anti-d.jordan

[SwishSquared]

The reason it's so attractive is because so many franchises suck for prolonged periods while not doing it on purpose.

It's not like "trying to be good" makes you good. It, more often than not, results in rushing the process.

Look at the Pelicans right now. Sure, they are good and will make the playoffs, but they wasted the last 2 years rushing the process with that Holiday and some of their other moves like signing Gordon to that big deal. For what? To maybe make the playoffs and lose in round 1? Not worth it when you give up Noel and a first rounder for that...not worth it at all.

And then Pelicans fans will complain about AD's lack of help once they become a legit contending team and they'd wish they had developed Aminu, kept Noel and the draft pick and built organically.Trust me, I'm the guy on here who's been the biggest opponent of their summer 2013 moves. Building organically, especially with a generational guy like AD, would have worked so much better. I really disliked the Jrue trade and Tyreke Evans signing. They traded Robin Lopez and Vasquez to get him basically.

I argued that they instead should have been the contract dumping ground for the Warriors when they wanted to sign Iggy. Utah got 2 unprotected firsts and 2 seconds out of that deal. One of those seconds was used, along with cash, to acquire the first round pick used on Gobert. Pellies could/should have Noel, Elfrid Payton, and Rodney Hood. Plus they could have gotten Dekker this year, assuming they have the same record the past 2 years (although their pick in 2014 would have been more favorable considering no Jrue/Evans/Nerlens Noel).

They, in all likelihood, built completely wrong. If they did it properly, they could have thrown maxes at guys this summer (Middleton, etc). This team does gain some cap room with Gordon expiring next year, but they let a talented guy like Aminu walk for nothing. Why not offer him a QO or anything? They could have gotten Alvin Gentry last summer if they would have fired Monty one year sooner and probably for less money. Coaches' salaries only escalate every year.

[DMAVS41]

Trust me, I'm the guy on here who's been the biggest opponent of their summer 2013 moves. Building organically, especially with a generational guy like AD, would have worked so much better. I really disliked the Jrue trade and Tyreke Evans signing. They traded Robin Lopez and Vasquez to get him basically.

I argued that they instead should have been the contract dumping ground for the Warriors when they wanted to sign Iggy. Utah got 2 unprotected firsts and 2 seconds out of that deal. One of those seconds was used, along with cash, to acquire the first round pick used on Gobert. Pellies could/should have Noel, Elfrid Payton, and Rodney Hood. Plus they could have gotten Dekker this year, assuming they have the same record the past 2 years (although their pick in 2014 would have been more favorable considering no Jrue/Evans/Nerlens Noel).

They, in all likelihood, built completely wrong. If they did it properly, they could have thrown maxes at guys this summer (Middleton, etc). This team does gain some cap room with Gordon expiring next year, but they let a talented guy like Aminu walk for nothing. Why not offer him a QO or anything? They could have gotten Alvin Gentry last summer if they would have fired Monty one year sooner and probably for less money. Coaches' salaries only escalate every year.

Bingo.

And again...for what? I was saying all this shit 2 years ago.

My reasoning at the time was simple:

What is the best case scenario with all these moves? That you make the playoffs and never win a round? The over under playoff series wins would be set at .5 for that 3 year stretch.

Conversely, the upside of building organically is that you hit in the draft and have two superstars and loads of cap space and young talent.

It might not matter because AD is good, but in a hyper competitive league like it currently is, especially in the West, every decision matters...and it seems like these teams don't get it.

[NBASTATMAN]

this has to be the dumbest signing ever.. DUDE JUST TORE HIS ACHILLES... CUBAN DUMB AS FCUK

[SwishSquared]

Bingo.

And again...for what? I was saying all this shit 2 years ago.

My reasoning at the time was simple:

What is the best case scenario with all these moves? That you make the playoffs and never win a round? The over under playoff series wins would be set at .5 for that 3 year stretch.

Conversely, the upside of building organically is that you hit in the draft and have two superstars and loads of cap space and young talent.

It might not matter because AD is good, but in a hyper competitive league like it currently is, especially in the West, every decision matters...and it seems like these teams don't get it.I'm with you. I don't expect New Orleans to win a playoff series this upcoming year just because they're not good enough in my eyes. They have a good core, mostly due to AD's brilliance, but they needed a real second start to help him out on offense.

Looking back, they would have probably had a top 5 pick in 2014 and a top 10 pick this year if they had fewer vets/more rookies on this team by building organically. Kinda a shame because it reminds me of LBJ early in his career. Cleveland improved pretty quickly, but rushed the rebuild then too.

I think AD won't get enough support unless they do amazing in FA next 2 years. I don't see them getting much better via trade. His impact may cover up the fact his whole team is role players but I don't buy it, at least for this year. Maybe next year once they have cap space they can get something going.

[Clifton]

You get a Dirk or Duncan or Shaq or Lebron or Durant or Curry or Davis....the risk/reward is just too great to pass up.
Historically, I don't think this has worked. Tanking creates a losing, cynical culture. Winning teams, dynasties, don't tank, they slowly and patiently build a winning culture and have one or two major breaks go their way.

90s Bulls... did they tank to get MJ? I think they were just bad at the time (not sure). Got MJ. The next lucky break was Pippen developing into a perfect running mate to MJ. They got Phil and everything fell into place.

IIRC Lakers got Magic because of a fluke in which they had some other team's first rounder. Celtics got Bird by a similar stroke of luck (can't remember the details).

Did the Spurs tank to get Duncan? Did the Mavs tank to get Dirk? Did the Lakers tank to get Shaq or Kobe? No - IIRC, in all these cases, honestly struggling teams got a stroke of luck, and never allowed a losing culture to develop in the mean time.

When KG and Allen signed on to the Celtics creating the first superteam... those Celtics never tanked. Pierce valiantly fought with a second-class roster for a decade. And he was rewarded...

I remember when the Cavs and Heat were neck and neck for the worst record in the NBA the year before the Lebron James draft. I remember the Cavs winning their last couple games to lose the #1 lottery position to the Heat. And I remember the Cavs getting the #1 pick to draft their hometown hero anyway. Things worked out for the Heat as well if you recall.

Did the Warriors tank to get their roster? Blazers? Current Spurs? Heck, did the Rockets? Hawks? The Pacers have fallen apart, but for a while there, before everyone got injured and angry with each other, they were a decent ballhandler away from a title. And almost everyone on the roster was drafted by the Pacers as a late lottery pick.

Tanking don't work. Maybe one time in ten. Karma is real.

[DMAVS41]

I'm with you. I don't expect New Orleans to win a playoff series this upcoming year just because they're not good enough in my eyes. They have a good core, mostly due to AD's brilliance, but they needed a real second start to help him out on offense.

Looking back, they would have probably had a top 5 pick in 2014 and a top 10 pick this year if they had fewer vets/more rookies on this team by building organically. Kinda a shame because it reminds me of LBJ early in his career. Cleveland improved pretty quickly, but rushed the rebuild then too.

I think AD won't get enough support unless they do amazing in FA next 2 years. I don't see them getting much better via trade. His impact may cover up the fact his whole team is role players but I don't buy it, at least for this year. Maybe next year once they have cap space they can get something going.

Exactly. The Cavs are another great example of this.

I'm not sure why teams struggle to see it so much. AD just turned 22. The whole point of a player like him...that gets this good this fast...is to maximize him from age 24 to 34.

What happens his first 4 or 5 seasons in the league shouldn't be highly prioritized in terms of a "win now" method. If it makes sense to go for a title early on...great, but don't press and rush the process.

Trading Noel and a lottery pick for Jrue Holiday is the definition of "rushing the process"

We'll see what happens, but that Asik contract combined with limited young assets on that team....it might be really hard for the Pelicans to become an elite team for a while. Building in free agency is harder than people get.

And even harder to get young players in free agency...the guys teams get are always the lat 20's early 30's type guys.

[creepingdeath]

Historically, I don't think this has worked. Tanking creates a losing, cynical culture. Winning teams, dynasties, don't tank, they slowly and patiently build a winning culture and have one or two major breaks go their way.

90s Bulls... did they tank to get MJ? I think they were just bad at the time (not sure). Got MJ. The next lucky break was Pippen developing into a perfect running mate to MJ. They got Phil and everything fell into place.

IIRC Lakers got Magic because of a fluke in which they had some other team's first rounder. Celtics got Bird by a similar stroke of luck (can't remember the details).

Did the Spurs tank to get Duncan? Did the Mavs tank to get Dirk? Did the Lakers tank to get Shaq or Kobe? No - IIRC, in all these cases, honestly struggling teams got a stroke of luck, and never allowed a losing culture to develop in the mean time.

When KG and Allen signed on to the Celtics creating the first superteam... those Celtics never tanked. Pierce valiantly fought with a second-class roster for a decade. And he was rewarded...

I remember when the Cavs and Heat were neck and neck for the worst record in the NBA the year before the Lebron James draft. I remember the Cavs winning their last couple games to lose the #1 lottery position to the Heat. And I remember the Cavs getting the #1 pick to draft their hometown hero anyway. Things worked out for the Heat as well if you recall.

Did the Warriors tank to get their roster? Blazers? Current Spurs? Heck, did the Rockets? Hawks? The Pacers have fallen apart, but for a while there, before everyone got injured and angry with each other, they were a decent ballhandler away from a title. And almost everyone on the roster was drafted by the Pacers as a late lottery pick.

Tanking don't work. Maybe one time in ten. Karma is real.
Repped.

[stevieming]

Historically, I don't think this has worked. Tanking creates a losing, cynical culture. Winning teams, dynasties, don't tank, they slowly and patiently build a winning culture and have one or two major breaks go their way.

90s Bulls... did they tank to get MJ? I think they were just bad at the time (not sure). Got MJ. The next lucky break was Pippen developing into a perfect running mate to MJ. They got Phil and everything fell into place.

IIRC Lakers got Magic because of a fluke in which they had some other team's first rounder. Celtics got Bird by a similar stroke of luck (can't remember the details).

Did the Spurs tank to get Duncan? Did the Mavs tank to get Dirk? Did the Lakers tank to get Shaq or Kobe? No - IIRC, in all these cases, honestly struggling teams got a stroke of luck, and never allowed a losing culture to develop in the mean time.

When KG and Allen signed on to the Celtics creating the first superteam... those Celtics never tanked. Pierce valiantly fought with a second-class roster for a decade. And he was rewarded...

I remember when the Cavs and Heat were neck and neck for the worst record in the NBA the year before the Lebron James draft. I remember the Cavs winning their last couple games to lose the #1 lottery position to the Heat. And I remember the Cavs getting the #1 pick to draft their hometown hero anyway. Things worked out for the Heat as well if you recall.

Did the Warriors tank to get their roster? Blazers? Current Spurs? Heck, did the Rockets? Hawks? The Pacers have fallen apart, but for a while there, before everyone got injured and angry with each other, they were a decent ballhandler away from a title. And almost everyone on the roster was drafted by the Pacers as a late lottery pick.

Tanking don't work. Maybe one time in ten. Karma is real.

errr the spurs tanked like crazy to get Duncan!!...they sat drob out that whole year and lost a ton of games...

[DMAVS41]

Historically, I don't think this has worked. Tanking creates a losing, cynical culture. Winning teams, dynasties, don't tank, they slowly and patiently build a winning culture and have one or two major breaks go their way.

90s Bulls... did they tank to get MJ? I think they were just bad at the time (not sure). Got MJ. The next lucky break was Pippen developing into a perfect running mate to MJ. They got Phil and everything fell into place.

IIRC Lakers got Magic because of a fluke in which they had some other team's first rounder. Celtics got Bird by a similar stroke of luck (can't remember the details).

Did the Spurs tank to get Duncan? Did the Mavs tank to get Dirk? Did the Lakers tank to get Shaq or Kobe? No - IIRC, in all these cases, honestly struggling teams got a stroke of luck, and never allowed a losing culture to develop in the mean time.

When KG and Allen signed on to the Celtics creating the first superteam... those Celtics never tanked. Pierce valiantly fought with a second-class roster for a decade. And he was rewarded...

I remember when the Cavs and Heat were neck and neck for the worst record in the NBA the year before the Lebron James draft. I remember the Cavs winning their last couple games to lose the #1 lottery position to the Heat. And I remember the Cavs getting the #1 pick to draft their hometown hero anyway. Things worked out for the Heat as well if you recall.

Did the Warriors tank to get their roster? Blazers? Current Spurs? Heck, did the Rockets? Hawks? The Pacers have fallen apart, but for a while there, before everyone got injured and angry with each other, they were a decent ballhandler away from a title. And almost everyone on the roster was drafted by the Pacers as a late lottery pick.

Tanking don't work. Maybe one time in ten. Karma is real.

It depends on how you are defining tanking, but I think you need to look back at a few things.

Did the Spurs tank to get Duncan? Yes....I have no clue what you are talking about. They could have tried to be better, but they saw the writing on the wall and knew that if they were horrible for 1 year...they had a chance at a franchise saving player in Tim Duncan.

You think they regret that?

Using the term "tanking" can get into an argument over semantics.

So let me just say...I agree with a lot of what you say, but "being bad" has huge rewards...when a team chooses the right time to be bad.

It's all about a comparison of your options. Should the Sonics have tried to win 44 games instead of 31 in 07? Well, they dont' have Durant on the Thunder now.

Should the Thunder have tried to win as many games as possible in 08? Well, they don't have WB now.

You have to evaluate the situation....are 76ers better off being a 1 and done team in the playoffs built around Jrue Holiday? Or are they better off being terrible for 3 years with a chance for greatness?

Are the Pelicans better off now than they would have been if they had built organically and not rushed the process?

How about the Cavs with Lebron? You think those first 7 years went well with the kind of teams they put around him?

It's never black/white....sometimes it's smart to lose...sometimes it isn't.

Karma doesn't actually exist. Grown men making real business decisions should never think about things like "karma"...you make the best decisions you can given the evidence and risk/reward potential.

If you don't think the Spurs rightfully tanked the 97 season...you just have a different definition of the word...

And the Mavs are in similar position actually. They could easily go from 20 wins to 56 wins just like the Spurs did. 1 year being terrible....with a solid core in place and loads of cap room next summer.

So similar. Down to the injuries and aging franchise player. We could have held out Wes and Parsons much of the year. Let Dirk rest a lot....then I like the idea of showing this team has real talent the last month or so of the year. Show potential free agents that this team is a piece away from making noise..combine that with the prospect of an elite talent in the draft and Rick Carlisle coaching...and you've got a desirable situation.

The chance to get an elite prospect like Ben Simmons and solidify the future of the game for over a decade absolutely destroys any benefit of signing Zaza, Deron, and other vets to try and squeeze out as many wins as possible in a year you have no chance to win.

It's really not even remotely close in terms of the decision once emotion is removed and things like "karma" are rightfully ignored.

[Clifton]

It depends on how you are defining tanking, but I think you need to look back at a few things.

Did the Spurs tank to get Duncan? Yes....I have no clue what you are talking about. They could have tried to be better, but they saw the writing on the wall and knew that if they were horrible for 1 year...they had a chance at a franchise saving player in Tim Duncan.

You think they regret that?
Fair enough. I don't know the details. I was barely aware of the NBA when this happened. My impression was that Robinson got hurt and it was a lost season. Perhaps they tanked the last part of it.

If that's the case, I still think there's a difference between tanking 20 games and tanking 3 straight seasons. Maybe they thought, "Robinson's getting over a major injury... why hurry back and risk another one for a lost season?"


Using the term "tanking" can get into an argument over semantics.

So let me just say...I agree with a lot of what you say, but "being bad" has huge rewards...when a team chooses the right time to be bad.
Sure. It can. My point is that more often than not it backfires. New York scored Ewing, and still never won anything. Orlando got Shaq, but then he left, because who wants to play in Orlando? They have no history, etc.


It's all about a comparison of your options. Should the Sonics have tried to win 44 games instead of 31 in 07? Well, they dont' have Durant on the Thunder now.

Should the Thunder have tried to win as many games as possible in 08? Well, they don't have WB now.
True, but again: they might not have Durant on the Thunder in two years. He may go to Washington. They may not have WB. He might want to go to the Lakers in a sign and trade for one of the Lakers' talented combo guards.


You have to evaluate the situation....are 76ers better off being a 1 and done team in the playoffs built around Jrue Holiday? Or are they better off being terrible for 3 years with a chance for greatness?
The Mavs were a 1 and done team in the playoffs built around Dirk (who everyone thought was a loser until 2011). They won 50 games and lost in the playoffs for 10 straight years. Then they got three breaks: they got Tyson Chandler, they got Jason Kidd, and they got Rick Carlisle.

Meanwhile the Pistons were still competitive (outside title contenders) when they gave away their entire roster and went into "rebuild" mode... that was what, 4-5 years ago? What have they done since?


Are the Pelicans better off now than they would have been if they had built organically and not rushed the process?
They appear to have a great thing with Davis, but they've got issues. Again: you're not giving me a team that has actually accomplished anything. Yes they've got a top 5 player, who has a sense of loyalty. So did Minnesota, it never won them anything.

My whole point is: winning - greatness - takes a certain something. Yes you need a big break. Yes losing can open the window to that big break, but so can other things. So can the big lights in LA or New York... so can a great coaching staff (San Antonio). So can a great medical team (Phoenix). So can loyal fans (Golden State). So can a visible owner with a bottomless wallet (Dallas). So can a winning history (Boston). Gotcha question: It's 2020. Boston and Minnesota both won 35 games the last two years. They both offer you a max deal. Which one do you sign with? Boston.

A Spurs assistant coach just signed on with Minnesota, now who are you signing with? Now it's Minnesota... isn't it. Meanwhile if Minnesota tanks, gets the next generational superstar, and can't build around him... that guy is going to LA (or to Pat Riley's team... or to Jerry West's team...) as soon as his rookie contract is over. Which is what these Sixers stars will do if any of them pan out.

Good post - I wanted to reply to all, but I got tired of writing. I agree with a lot of what you say. I think I'd tip the scale to "usually, planning to lose is not the way to go." No Karma does not really exist. But the business decisions have to be the right ones, with or without it, and with or without luck. Fortune favors the brave.

[RoseCity07]

Matthews before the injury is worth about 12 or 13 million a year. Now. 10 is appropriate.

17.5 million a season? LMFAO. Mark Cuban letting that Shark Tank power get to his head.

[DMAVS41]

Fair enough. I don't know the details. I was barely aware of the NBA when this happened. My impression was that Robinson got hurt and it was a lost season. Perhaps they tanked the last part of it.

If that's the case, I still think there's a difference between tanking 20 games and tanking 3 straight seasons. Maybe they thought, "Robinson's getting over a major injury... why hurry back and risk another one for a lost season?"


Sure. It can. My point is that more often than not it backfires. New York scored Ewing, and still never won anything. Orlando got Shaq, but then he left, because who wants to play in Orlando? They have no history, etc.


True, but again: they might not have Durant on the Thunder in two years. He may go to Washington. They may not have WB. He might want to go to the Lakers in a sign and trade for one of the Lakers' talented combo guards.


The Mavs were a 1 and done team in the playoffs built around Dirk (who everyone thought was a loser until 2011). They won 50 games and lost in the playoffs for 10 straight years. Then they got three breaks: they got Tyson Chandler, they got Jason Kidd, and they got Rick Carlisle.

Meanwhile the Pistons were still competitive (outside title contenders) when they gave away their entire roster and went into "rebuild" mode... that was what, 4-5 years ago? What have they done since?


They appear to have a great thing with Davis, but they've got issues. Again: you're not giving me a team that has actually accomplished anything. Yes they've got a top 5 player, who has a sense of loyalty. So did Minnesota, it never won them anything.

My whole point is: winning - greatness - takes a certain something. Yes you need a big break. Yes losing can open the window to that big break, but so can other things. So can the big lights in LA or New York... so can a great coaching staff (San Antonio). So can a great medical team (Phoenix). So can loyal fans (Golden State). So can a visible owner with a bottomless wallet (Dallas). So can a winning history (Boston). Gotcha question: It's 2020. Boston and Minnesota both won 35 games the last two years. They both offer you a max deal. Which one do you sign with? Boston.

A Spurs assistant coach just signed on with Minnesota, now who are you signing with? Now it's Minnesota... isn't it. Meanwhile if Minnesota tanks, gets the next generational superstar, and can't build around him... that guy is going to LA (or to Pat Riley's team... or to Jerry West's team...) as soon as his rookie contract is over. Which is what these Sixers stars will do if any of them pan out.

Good post - I wanted to reply to all, but I got tired of writing. I agree with a lot of what you say. I think I'd tip the scale to "usually, planning to lose is not the way to go." No Karma does not really exist. But the business decisions have to be the right ones, with or without it, and with or without luck. Fortune favors the brave.

Yea. You make a lot of good points and like I said before. I agree with most of them.

I'll try to clean my main point up and be concise (a rarity for me on here).

I think that "being bad" can be a very large weapon in the arsenal of teams given the right conditions.

I think the Mavericks, this season, are in one of those positions very similar to the Spurs in 97. You are right that Robinson got hurt, but my point was that the Spurs could have tried to make the best of that season...they didn't...they went the other way. In my opinion, that is a case of using "being bad" as that weapon above.

My Mavs? I think we should do the same thing. We have injuries, we have unknowns, we have an aging star....I think the upside is huge and I can't really see the downside unless Dirk is for sure retiring.

But I also want to make it know...and I've said it before here....I hate that the NBA has a system that rewards teams for trying to lose. I hate it...I wish they would completely randomize the draft over rewarding teams that continue to lose.

We'll see what happens. I actually don't hate the Deron signing...I just wish we had the kind of team we should have had (Tyson and solid role players) in addition to Deron/Wes/Parsons/Dirk...that is a team that can make the playoffs and make a run if things break right.

It just pisses me off we'd trade for Tyson with his bird rights and then let him go with no backup plan at all in favor of chasing a player at best 50/50 to come here and makes our ability to compete right away worse.

We'll see how it shakes out.