The GOAT impact on a bad team

[3ball]

Without MJ in 1989, Doug Collins' 6th seeded, 47-win Bulls would've been a lottery team headed into the 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from their 1st three-peat.

That's the GOAT impact on a bad team: lottery without MJ... versus 1 season away from 3-peat with MJ (not a 1-off championship, a 3-peat).

Has anyone ever had a lottery to 3-peat impact?

Of course, we already know about MJ's GOAT impact on a decent team, when the Bulls fell from 3-peat champions to 2nd Round.. That's the biggest 1-season decline in history when a star player leaves the team.
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[KiiiiNG]

1-9 though bro.

[nzahir]

55 wins after mj, 1-9.....why do u make threads with same agenda every day?
Rent free?

[pastis]

1-9 though bro.

this

[TripleA]

Without MJ in 1989, Doug Collins' 6th seeded, 47-win Bulls would've been a lottery team headed into the 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from their 1st three-peat.

That's the GOAT impact on a bad team: lottery without MJ... versus 1 season away from 3-peat with MJ (not a 1-off championship, a 3-peat).

Has anyone ever had a lottery to 3-peat impact?

:applause: you could say that about all of lebron's teams clown

[SouBeachTalents]

'90 Robinson: Spurs went from 21 wins to 56, made the WCSF
'05 Nash: Suns went from 29 wins to 62, made the WCF
'80 Bird: Celtics went 29 wins to 61, made the ECF
'70 Kareem: Bucks went 27 wins to 56, made the ECF
'02 Kidd: Nets went 26 wins to 52, made the Finals

Those are GOAT impacts on bad teams

[3ball]

Has anyone ever had a lottery to 3-peat impact?




you could say that about all of lebron's teams clown


Re-read that last sentence of the OP and get back to me with an answer.. I'll be waiting

[3ball]

why do u make threads with same agenda every day?


This thread points out that MJ had the goat impact on bad teams AND decent teams.


MJ's goat impact on a bad team:


Bulls were lottery going into 1990 season without MJ, versus 3-peat in 1991 with MJ



MJ's goat impact on a decent team:


3-peat in 1993 with MJ, to 2nd round in 1994 without MJ
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[TripleA]

This thread points out that MJ had a goat impact on bad teams AND decent teams.


MJ's goat impact on a bad team:


lottery going into 1990 season without MJ, versus 3-peat in 1991 with MJ



MJ's goat impact on a decent team:


3-peat to 2nd round in 1994 without MJ

dog wheres your facts they made playoffs when MJ broke his navicular bone and they were worse back then.:lol

[Trollsmasher]

Without MJ in 1989, Doug Collins' 6th seeded, 47-win Bulls would've been a lottery team headed into the 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from their 1st three-peat.

That's the GOAT impact on a bad team: lottery without MJ... versus 1 season away from 3-peat with MJ (not a 1-off championship, a 3-peat).

Has anyone ever had a lottery to 3-peat impact?
gonna need some objective sauces on that instead of just "it would've happened"

[3ball]

dog wheres your facts they made playoffs when MJ broke his navicular bone and they were worse back then.:lol
Bulls were lottery in 1984, before MJ got there in 1985.

And again, MJ had the goat impact on both good AND bad teams:

Goat impact on good team: In just one season, the Bulls fell from a 3-peat with MJ in 1993, to 2nd Round loses without MJ in 1994.. No team has ever fallen that far in 1 season after their star player left.

Goat impact on bad team: without MJ in 1989, Doug Collins' 6th seeded, 47-win Bulls would've been a lottery team heading into the 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from their 1st three-peat - MJ's lottery to 3-peat impact is unprecedented..
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[AussieBaller99]

Lakers would have been a lottery team in 09 & 10 if they didn't have Kobe

[3ball]

gonna need some objective sauces on that instead of just "it would've happened"

(that the 47-win, 6th seeded Bulls would've been lottery in 1989 without MJ)


MJ's averages in 1989: 33/8/8 on 54%.. 2.9 stl.. Literally, GOAT averages.

Take that away from the 47-win, 6 seeded Bulls in 1989 and they'd be in the lottery heading into the 1990 season, not ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting their first 3-peat..

That's not just a reasonable assumption.. It's the only one.

Btw, in 1988, MJ was 35/6/6 on 54%, with 3.2 stl, 1.6 blk and DPOY... GOAT offense and GOAT defense in the same season.. Let that sink in.. He also scored 46% of this team's points in the 4th quarter (12.1) during that season (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiBQ05cXt04&t=0m21s).

[Rocketswin2013]

Jordan was a stat-padder in 1989. If he weren't so obsessed with himself, and did everything he could for his team, they could've won more. Also, Pippen's improvements probably had a lot to do with the difference in that teams caliber from '89 - '91, too.



April 9, 1989|By IRA WINDERMAN, NBA Writer (During his triple-double streak)

During breaks in games, Jordan has been wandering over to the scorer`s table to get updates on how many rebounds, assists and points he needs to fill his three double-figure quotas.``The guys at the scorer`s desk let me know what I need,`` he said. ``They tell me, `You need three assists; you need two rebounds.```Jordan also has been double-checking the figures with Chicago assistants.``They keep me in tune,`` he said. ``They keep reminding me when I come back to the huddle, how much I need.``Last Sunday, at home against New Jersey, the 10th assist was Jordan`s final goal.``I knew I had nine assists,`` he said, ``and I looked at (forward) Brad (Sellers), and said, `Brad, can I count on you for my 10th?` And he said, `yeah` and hit a jumper from the baseline.``The push for the elusive triple-double is part of Jordan`s push for greater respect.``If the way I`m playing now doesn`t convince them I`m a complete player,`` he said, ``then nothing will.``


http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1989-04-09/sports/8901190048_1_triple-double-new-statistic-box-score

[3ball]

:facepalm
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[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/0X7oDr.gif


Jordan was a stat-padder in 1989.



Only in 1989?... What about 1988?

In 1988, he averaged 35/6/6 on 54%, with 3.2 steals, 1.6 blocks, and DPOY, while scoring 46% of his team's 4th quarter points (shown above) - that's goat offense and goat defense in the same season.

And what about each of the 4 years from 1988 to 1991 when MJ got 31+ PER and 60+ TS%?.. Surely, he was stat-padding all of these years too.





If he weren't so obsessed with himself, and did everything he could for his team, MJ's 1989 Bulls could've won more.


:biggums:

COMPARE MJ'S 1989 PLAYOFF RUN TO LEBRON'S 2007:


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


Obviously, no comparison - MJ's carried the worse team against verifiably-better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377617) competition, while achieving far greater stats.





Also, Pippen's improvements probably had a lot to do with the difference in that teams caliber from '89 - '91, too.


It makes no sense to bring up Pippen because Pippen was the only elite talent MJ had:

Shaq had better supporting talent since Kobe > Pippen.

Kobe had better supporting talent since Shaq > Pippen.

Lebron had better supporting talent because his 3rd option was a 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player (Bosh).

Bird and Magic's supporting casts were FAR better than MJ's.

As you can see, MJ's supporting casts were weaker than Shaq's, Kobe's, Lebron's, Magic's, and Bird's.. That's why he had to achieve the greatest playoff and Finals stats ever, and the 2nd best regular season stats (Wilt).. Btw, only MJ and Wilt rank at the top of all-time lists as offensive players AND defensive players.. That's why they're the best big man and non-big man OAT.
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[Rocketswin2013]

Only in 1989?... What about 1988?

In 1988, he averaged 35/6/6 on 54%, with 3.2 steals, 1.6 blocks, and DPOY, while scoring 46% of his team's 4th quarter points (shown above) - that's goat offense and goat defense in the same season.

And what about each of the 4 years from 1988 to 1991 when MJ got 31+ PER and 60+ TS%?.. Surely, he was stat-padding all of these years too.



COMPARE MJ'S 1989 PLAYOFF RUN TO LEBRON'S 2007:


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 59.8% TS.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 54.9% TS.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 64.6% TS.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 53.7% TS.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 59.8% TS.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 53.7% TS.. 44.9% FG)


Obviously, no comparison - MJ's carried the worse team against verifiably-better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377617) competition, while achieving far greater stats.



It makes no sense to bring up Pippen because Pippen was the only elite talent MJ had:

Shaq had better supporting talent since Kobe > Pippen.

Kobe had better supporting talent since Shaq > Pippen.

Lebron had better supporting talent because his 3rd option was a 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player (Bosh).

Bird and Magic's supporting casts were FAR better than MJ's.

As you can see, MJ's supporting casts were weaker than Shaq's, Kobe's, Lebron's, Magic's, and Bird's.. That's why he had to achieve the greatest playoff and Finals stats ever.. And the 2nd best regular season stats (Wilt).. Btw, only MJ and Wilt rank at the top of all-time lists as offensive players AND defensive players.
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:oldlol: What is this? I didn't bring up any of the players mentioned outside of Jordan and Pippen. Your argument -- heck, I wouldn't even call this an argument, is just a random group of unrelated things, is literally nothing to dispute what I said. Tons of deflecting.


1. Jordan was a stat-padder in 1989
2. Scottie Pippen was 70% of the player he'd be from '91 - '93.
3. The two points above had a huge impact on the way the 1989 season turned out compared to '91 - '93.

[Hittin_Shots]

Your arguments aren't based in logic, you have no idea if they're lottery without MJ on those three years. They definitely weren't lottery the year he left immediately after...

Is your agenda to get the biggest Jordan fans to argue against him?

[3ball]

1. Jordan was a stat-padder in 1989


It's not just 1989 - Jordan put up GOAT stats for his entire career - his playoff and Finals stats as a 35-year old are better than almost every season of Lebron's career.





2. Scottie Pippen was 70% of the player he'd be from '91 - '93.


It makes no difference - Jordan 3-peated from 1991-1993 with one of the weakest supporting casts ever.

It's not like you're talking about anyone else - JUST Pippen.. With any other championship team, you'd be talking about multiple all-stars.. That shows how much LESS help MJ had.

[3ball]

you have no idea if they're lottery without MJ on those three years.


Listen to how stupid you sound.

You're trying to say no one should have ANY IDEA whether the 47-win, 6th seeded Bulls would make the playoffs in 1989 without the greatest individual stats any player has ever put up (other than Wilt).. And elite defense?.. Get your head out of your ass

[Rocketswin2013]

It's not just 1989 - Jordan put up GOAT stats for his entire career - his playoff and Finals stats as a 35-year old are better than almost every season of Lebron's career.
I don't care about great stats in any other years. Michael Jordan blatantly stat-padded in 1989. That is undeniable. He also won an underwhelming amount of games(willing to bet 47 wins is the worst for a player with >30 PER OR > .300 WS/48, let alone BOTH :oldlol: )




It makes no difference - Jordan 3-peated from 1991-1993 with one of the weakest supporting casts ever.

It's not like you're talking about anyone else - JUST Pippen.. With any other championship team, you'd be talking about multiple all-stars.. That shows how much LESS help MJ had.
Literally no evidence to bring forth with this assumption.

[3ball]

I don't care about great stats in any other years. Michael Jordan blatantly stat-padded in 1989.


Wow, you don't understand shit.. It's impossible for a player to be stat-padding if the stats in that season aren't better than the stats in other seasons - because then the stats weren't padded.. Did that get through?





He also won an underwhelming amount of games(willing to bet 47 wins is the worst for a player with >30 PER OR > .300 WS/48, let alone BOTH :oldlol: )


The stats show MJ was producing more than any player ever has, so it was the supporting cast that couldn't make up the difference.

Also, the Bulls were a 6th seed in 1989, compared to the Cavs 2-seed in 2007.. The Bulls' lower seeding makes MJ's playoff run more of an overachievement than Lebron's.. Indeed - MJ overachieved more in 1989, while putting up better stats against better teams and defenses - I already posted the stats showing this.





Literally no evidence to say MJ's supporting cast was the weakest


MJ only played with 1 all-star his entire career - Pippen.. That's it.

Whereas Magic, Bird, Lebron and Duncan have all played with 2+ active all-stars for their entire careers.. So there's your proof..

Heck, Lebron played with a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option.. Meanwhile, Kobe had Shaq, who was > Pippen... Of course, Magic and Bird's teams were more stacked than everyone's.. MJ's supporting cast simply doesn't compare to these guys.
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[Nash]

Lebron in 14/15

lottery team in 13/14, carries them to finals in 14/15 without Love and Kyrie

[3ball]

Lebron in 14/15

lottery team in 13/14, carries them to finals in 14/15 without Love and Kyrie


they added mosgov, jr smith, and shumpert.

but regardless, how did you arrive at the conclusion that getting a team to the Finals is remotely in the same zip code as 3-peating?

and speaking of mosgov - his 14/8 on 50% in the Finals meant that he was a better 2nd option than Pippen in the 1996 Finals (15/8 on 34%).

[Rocketswin2013]

Wow, you don't understand shit.. It's impossible for a player to be stat-padding if the stats in that season aren't better than the stats n other seasons - because then the stats weren't padded.. Did that get through?

This entire time I've been following YOUR logic. It only comes off as stupid this time because you don't even ****ing pay attention to the shit you post. You said, he had "GOAT stats" in the OP, remember?


And just because Jordan had marginally better stat-lines in other seasons, doesn't mean he wasn't stat padding. There are literally articles detailing his stat-padding in 1989(the season you said was GOAT stat-wise). Are actually implying he didn't play just for his stats in 1989? And that it didn't show in the W/L record?



The stats show MJ was producing more than any player ever has, so it was the supporting cast that couldn't make up the difference.
The stats clearly don't. He was stat-padding. I would say the wins show the truth. Worst 30+ PER and .300 WS/48 + season ever, success-wise.

[3ball]

And just because Jordan had marginally better stat-lines in other seasons, doesn't mean he wasn't stat padding.


Yes it does - if his stats weren't as good, then they weren't padded.. That's the definition of the word "padded".. "Padded" means extra, more, better.





I would say the wins show the truth. Worst 30+ PER and .300 WS/48 + season ever, success-wise.


Exactly, especially in the playoffs.. In 2009, Lebron had 30+ PER and .300 WS/48, but he lost in the 2nd Round to Dwight's Magic.

This is worse than the MJ losing in ECF to the champion Bad Boys..

And again, MJ was the 6 seed and severe underdog in every round, while Lebron was the 1-seed, and FAVORITE to come out of the (weak) East.

[Rocketswin2013]

Yes it does - if his stats weren't as good, then they weren't padded.. That's the definition of the word "padded".. "Padded" means extra, more, better.
Okay...he just selfishly played for his stats at all costs. Just to prove to the media he was an all-around player.

And btw:

MJ's averages in 1989: 33/8/8 on 54%.. 2.9 stl.. Literally, GOAT averages.
What are you talking about? You already said the stats were 'GOAT'.


Exactly, especially in the playoffs.. In 2009, Lebron had 30+ PER and .300 WS/48, but he lost in the 2nd Round to Dwight's Magic.

This is worse than the MJ losing in ECF to the champion Bad Boys..

And again, MJ was the 6 seed and severe underdog in every round, while Lebron was the 1-seed, and FAVORITE to come out of the (weak) East.
Literally untrue and irrelevant.

[3ball]

I would say the wins show the truth. Worst 30+ PER and .300 WS/48 + season ever, success-wise.


Exactly, especially in the playoffs.. In 2010, Lebron had 30+ PER and .299 WS/48, but he lost in the 2nd Round to the post-Garnett-injury Celtics.

This is worse than the MJ losing in ECF to the champion Bad Boys.. MJ taking a 6-seed to ECF > Lebron taking 1-seed to 2nd Round.

And again, MJ was the 6 seed and severe underdog in every round, while Lebron was the 1-seed, and FAVORITE to come out of the (weak) East..

[Rocketswin2013]

Exactly, especially in the playoffs.. In 2010, Lebron had 30+ PER and .299 WS/48, but he lost in the 2nd Round to the post-Garnett-injury Celtics.

This is worse than the MJ losing in ECF to the champion Bad Boys.. MJ taking a 6-seed to ECF > Lebron taking 1-seed to 2nd Round.

And again, MJ was the 6 seed and severe underdog in every round, while Lebron was the 1-seed, and FAVORITE to come out of the (weak) East..
Such stupid logic. LeBron James faced a Celtics team that, when even unhealthy, took the championship Lakers to 7.

LeBron James contributed to many more wins than Jordan did in 1989. He won 62 games with those atrocious Cavaliers. Jordan had the least impact out of all the insane statistical seasons in 1989.

Just a selfish, stat-crazed, sub-optimal season.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

LeBron James faced a Celtics team that, when even unhealthy, took the championship Lakers to 7.


What a joke - you think the Celtics losing to the Lakers is an EXCUSE for Lebron losing to them?

You don't even realize how dumb that is... Essentially, any time Lebron loses, the excuse is "b-b-but they had a good team."... Lebron stans are literally the DUMBEST fans on earth.





Jordan had the least impact out of all the insane statistical seasons in 1989.


MJ led a 6-seed to the ECF in 1989, while Lebron lost in 2nd Round with a 1-seed in 2010 - this proves Lebron's stats are the empty ones that result in underachievement..

Whereas MJ never lost as a 1-seed (he won the championship every year he was the 1-seed) and never underachieved his seeding EVER.. MJ's teams virtually never underacheived - never underachieving is the opposite of stat-padding.





1989 was just a selfish, stat-crazed, sub-optimal season for MJ.


MJ had GOAT stats for his entire career, so that means his entire career was "just a selfish, stat-crazed and sub-optimal", as you said.... that resulted in 6/6... Whew - what a selfish player.. :oldlol:

In 1989, MJ led a would-be lottery team to the ECF and 1 season away from the start of a 3-peat.. That's the GOAT impact on a bad team...

And of course, we already know MJ had the GOAT impact on a good team - the Bulls fell from 3-peat to 2nd Round with him, which is the biggest 1-season decline ever when a star player leaves the team.

[warriorfan]

Bulls were a bad team until MJ joined and they went 6/6.

How is this not GOAT impact on a bad team?