Only Wilt and MJ are Top 5 all-time on both offense and defense

[3ball]

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Among big men, Wilt is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

Among non-bigs, MJ is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

No two players rank as highly on BOTH offense and defense, which is why Wilt and MJ the two greatest players of all time.

In MJ's case, he was the goat scorer, while also being a defensive specialist akin to a Michael Cooper or Bruce Bowen (with shooting touch like Reggie Miller (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m57s))
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[LAZERUSS]

Wilt is arguably the greatest big man defender of all time, while MJ is arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time (top 5 at worst).

And of course, both are considered the best offensive players in history, bar none.

No two players rank as highly on BOTH offense and defense, which is why Wilt and MJ the two greatest players of all time.

In MJ's case, he was the GOAT scorer, while also being a defensive specialist akin to a Michael Cooper or Bruce Bowen.

For once, I agree. Add in the fact that Chamberlain, was by far, the greatest rebounder in NBA history, and easily the greatest shot-blocker...

well, you can see why he has a strong case as the GOAT. Only MJ would have a case over him, and even that is very close.

[HurricaneKid]

Wilt is arguably the greatest big man defender of all time, while MJ is arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time (top 5 at worst).

And of course, both are considered the best offensive players in history, bar none.

No two players rank as highly on BOTH offense and defense, which is why Wilt and MJ the two greatest players of all time.

In MJ's case, he was the goat scorer, while also being a defensive specialist akin to a Michael Cooper or Bruce Bowen (with shooting touch like Reggie Miller (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m57s))
.

Dude wasn't the best defender on his TEAM.

[Lakers Fan]

MJ was an overrated defender throughout most of career. That fact you have him at top 5 all time proves this. :lol At one point he was only the 3rd best defender on his team.

[3ball]

At one point he was only the 3rd best defender on his team.


MJ averaged 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks in 1988 season - that's better than any teammate of his ever did.

MJ was a defensive specialist who led the league in scoring every year.

[Harison]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000670172371/3be18112e57eb6cc1d336dfcc3d86b96.jpeg

[LAZERUSS]

A peak Kareem was a exceptional defender. Take a look at his Bucks' defensive rankings from '70-71 thru '73-74.

Add in his scoring, efficiency, passing skills, and rebounding in that time frame, and he was certainly one of the greatest forces in NBA history.

[3ball]

For once, I agree


I doubt you agree with anyone on basketball-related things... That will always be the case with someone who thinks 10-time all-star Chris Bosh (19/9) is better than 1-time all-star Horace Grant (11/8).

... or anyone that doesn't think the Bulls' fall from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round is the biggest 1-season decline ever, but can't provide anything bigger.

[LAZERUSS]

I doubt you agree with anyone on basketball-related things... That will always be the case with someone who thinks 10-time all-star Chris Bosh (19/9) is better than 1-time all-star Horace Grant (11/8).

... or anyone that doesn't think the Bulls' fall from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round is the biggest 1-season decline ever, but can't provide anything bigger.

I would take a Grant, from 90-91 thru 94-95 over a Bosh from 10-11 thru 14-15...BY A MILE.

Grant was a FORCE in that time frame, while Bosh has been a choking third-wheel with a flat-tire in the last five years.

Of course, I'm sure MJ would agree with me, as well, since he witnessed Grant's destruction of his Bulls first-hand.

[3ball]

Bosh has been a choking third-wheel with a flat-tire in the last five years.


Right... Since he joined Lebron.. Bosh sacrificed his prime years for Lebron-ball.

But even alongside Lebron's stat-reducing style, Bosh put up better stats than Grant ever has in any season.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Jordan's one of the very best perimeter defenders ever (one of the best defenders period) but, tbh, I wouldn't put no perimeter player in the top10 as far as defensive impact...

Wilt, Hakeem and Kareem probably have the best shot at it... Definitely wouldn't put Hakeem top5 as far as offense and Kareem's not really top5 as far as defense... So, Wilt certainly has the greatest case, but even so...

Oh, and shooting touch like Reggie Miller? :rolleyes:

[LAZERUSS]

Right... Since he joined Lebron.. Bosh sacrificed his prime years for Lebron-ball.

But even alongside Lebron's stat-reducing style, Bosh put up better stats than Grant ever has in any season.

And yet, Grant's IMPACT, was FAR greater.

Grant with Pippen. 55-27, and an eyelash away from winning a title. (Oh, and then Grant with Shaq...wiping out MJ's Bulls.)

Bosh with Wade. 22-30 and watching the playoffs from his couch.

Grant > Bosh.

[3ball]

Jordan's one of the very best perimeter defenders ever (one of the best defenders period) but, tbh,

I wouldn't put no perimeter player in the top10 as far as defensive impact...


Agreed...

But if you categorize players into either big man or non-big man - among big men, Wilt is the only player that ranks in top 5 on both offense and defense... and among non-bigs, MJ is the only player that ranks in the top 5 on both.





Oh, and shooting touch like Reggie Miller? :rolleyes:


Don't shoot me.. I'm just the messenger - that's what DPOY Ron Artest said about MJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m57s
.

[Lakers Fan]

MJ averaged 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks in 1988 season - that's better than any teammate of his ever did.

MJ was a defensive specialist who led the league in scoring every year.


If MJ had remained the defender he was in 1988 he would definitely have a case for GOAT defense but he was like Kobe in regards that they were beasts defensively when they were young, then relied on that in their latter years for their defensive reputation, and maintaining it by spot defending star players in big games.

[3ball]

If MJ had remained the defender he was in 1988 he would definitely have a case for GOAT defense but he was like Kobe in regards that they were beasts defensively when they were young, then relied on that in their latter years for their defensive reputation, and maintaining it by spot defending star players in big games.
Show me where Kobe got anywhere NEAR 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks.. Show me where Kobe led the league in steals... Kobe's steals and blocks are half of MJ's in most seasons.

So don't compare Kobe to MJ defensively... Infact, the huge defensive gap between Kobe and MJ shows how great a defender MJ was..

MJ was a beast defensively for his entire Bulls career.. Even 35-year old MJ was still one of the best defensive guards in the game - he always gave maximum effort played with maximum intensity.

Otoh, Kobe was getting All-Defense selections when Gilbert Arenas was dropping him off for 60 at Staples and Michael Redd going for 50.. Don't conflate MJ and Kobe on defense.. That stuff (50 and 60) never happened to MJ.

[Asukal]

I would take a Grant, from 90-91 thru 94-95 over a Bosh from 10-11 thru 14-15...BY A MILE.

Grant was a FORCE in that time frame, while Bosh has been a choking third-wheel with a flat-tire in the last five years.

Of course, I'm sure MJ would agree with me, as well, since he witnessed Grant's destruction of his Bulls first-hand.

And of course you wouldn't take a Grant of the 95-96 season because he got shitted on when MJ was finally back in shape with a full season under his belt. Swept alongside Shaq like they were nothing. :whatever:

[Lakers Fan]

Show me where Kobe got anywhere NEAR 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks.. Show me where Kobe led the league in steals... Kobe's steals and blocks are half of MJ's in most seasons.

So don't compare Kobe to MJ defensively... Infact, the huge defensive gap between Kobe and MJ shows how great a defender MJ was..

MJ was a beast defensively for his entire Bulls career.. Even 35-year old MJ was still one of the best defensive guards in the game - he always gave maximum effort played with maximum intensity.

Otoh, Kobe was getting All-Defense selections when Gilbert Arenas was dropping him off for 60 at Staples and Michael Redd going for 50.. Don't conflate MJ and Kobe on defense.. That stuff (50 and 60) never happened to MJ.


You have chosen to completely ignore my point that Jordan heavily relied on defensive reputation of his earlier years(just like Kobe) and chose ramble aimlessly on about a Kobe vs MJ debate. Btw someone has hung 50+ on MJ....

[LAZERUSS]

Rick Barry won the scoring title in 66-67, at 35.6 ppg.

https://books.google.com/books?id=W8ZAnT8gd-8C&pg=PT179&lpg=PT179&dq=rick+barry+said+he+won+the+scoring+title+wilt&source=bl&ots=NrtV-vkZVK&sig=SJdDVBHS8Tgu6gW-T3G4We_coCI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VTChVefANo-5ogSisqSAAg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=rick%20barry%20said%20he%20won%20the%20scoring%2 0title%20wilt&f=false

"If Wilt wanted it, he could have had it."


In Chamberlain's 66-67 season, he averaged 24.1 ppg, 24.3 rpg, 7.8 apg, and shot .683 from the floor.

Against his three HOF centers...


And keeping with the Laker seasonal series, Chamberlain averaged 26.4 ppg, 24.0 rpg, and on...get this... a .759 FG% in his 9 regular season H2H's. He had games of 28-30 on 13-13 FG/FGA; 32-30 on 15-15 FG/FGA; 39-28 16-23 FG/FGA; and 37-24 on 16-21 FG/FGA against LA that season.


Bellamy vs. Wilt in 9 H2H's:

Bellamy: 23.2 ppg, 15.9 rpg (8 known), .449 FG% (6 games)
Wilt: 22.7 ppg, 25.7 rpg, and on a .709 FG% (!)

Chamberlain outshot Bellamy by a .709 to .449 margk (BTW, Bellamy had shot .521 against the entire NBA (and Wilt probably dominated Reed at times, as well.) For the first time in their six seasonal H2H seris from '62 thur '67, Bellamy outscored Wilt (just barely.) Bellamy had six games of 20+, with a high game of 34 points. His high rebounding game against Chamberlain was 20. Wilt also had six games of 20+ points against Bellamy, with a high game of 35 points (on 15-18 shooting.) Wilt also had 8 games of 20+ rebounds, with highs of 30 and 33 against Bellamy. Overall, Wilt held a 5-3-1 scoring margin, and an 8-0 rebounding margin in the known H2H's.


Thurmond vs. Wilt in their 6 regular season H2H's:

Nate: 13.2 ppg, 23.8 rpg (5 known), .308 FG% (3 known).
Wilt: 20.8 ppg, 25.0 rpg, 8.5 apg, and on a .633 FG%.

Thanks to Julizaver's research, we now know that Thurmond shot 16-52 in tree of their known H2H's, or an eye-popping .308 FG%, and we KNOW Chamberlain hung an unfathomable .633 FG% against Thurmond in those six H2H's (which is remarkable considering that a prime Kareem shot .447 against a full-time Nate from '69 thru '73.) Nate's high point game against Wilt was 21 points (and his high rebounding game of 29 came in the same game.) Chamberlain had three games of 20+ against Thurmond with highs of 30 and 27. Wilt also had a 31 rebound game against Nate. Wilt held a 5-0-1 scoring margin, and they were 2-2-1 in known rebounding H2H's.

Thurmond vs. Wilt in their 6 Finals' games:

Nate: 14.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 3.3 apg, and on a .343 FG%
Wilt: 17.7 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, and on a .560 FG%

Nate's high game came against Wilt in game one, with 24 points, which was also his rebounding high with 31 (Wilt outrebounded Nate in that game 33-31.) Wilt had three games of 20+, with highs of 26 and 24 points. Wilt's rebounding high game was 38. Overall, Wilt outscored Nate, 5-1; outrebounded Nate, 5-1; outassisted Nate, 5-1; and outshot Nate from the floor, 6-0.


Russell vs Wilt in 9 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 12.2 ppg, 21.1 rpg, 4.1 apg, .425 FG% (8 known)
Wilt: 20.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 6.3 apg, .549 FG%

Russell's high point game against Wilt was 22 points. His high rebounding game against Chamberlain was 29. Wilt had 4 games of 20+ points against Russell, with a high of 30 points. Chamberlain had two games of 31 and 32 reounds. Overall, Wilt outscored Russell, 8-1, and outrebounded Russell, 7-2.

Russell vs. Wilt in 5 EDF's H2H's:

Russell: 11.4 ppg, 23.4 rpg, 6.0 apg, .358 FG%
Wilt: 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, and on a .556 FG%

Russell's high point game was 20 points, and his high rebounding game was 29. Wilt had 4 games of 20+ points, with a high of 29. And Wilt also had 3 games of 30+ rebounds (32, 36, and 41.) Overall, Wilt outscored Russell, 5-0; outrebounded Russell, 4-1; outassisted Russell, 3-0-2; and outshot Russell, 5-0.



In the regular season, Chamberlain had four games of 40+ points, with a high of 58. He had the three highest perfect games from the floor in NBA history (15-15, 16-16, and 18-18), and made a record 35 FGA's in a row.

He had 13 games of 30+ rebounds, with a high game of 38. He had 24 games with at least 10 assists, including highs of 16 and 17.

In the post-season, he averaged 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.0 apg, and shot .579 from the field. He had two straight series in which he averaged a triple-double (29-28-11 .617...and 22-32-10 .556), as well as two QUAD doubles (10-38-10-10, and 24-32-13-12...and he most certainly had a third, but the blocks can't be verified ...16-30-19 and as many as 20 blocks.

His high scoring game was 41 points. His high rebounding game was 41 (a playoff record BTW.) His high assist game was 19.

He outshot Russell by a .556 to .358 margin, and a peak Thurmond by a .560 to .343 margin.

Oh, and he led his team to a 68-13 record, and in the post-season he and his teammates annihilated Russell and his eight-time defending and 60-21 Celtics, 4-1, en route to a dominating title.

BTW, in his EDF's series clinching game five, he outscored Russell, 29-4; outshot Russell, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted Russell, 13-7; and outrebounded Russell, 36-21. In his Finals clinching game six, he outscored Thurmond, 24-12; outshot Nate, 8-13 to 4-13; and outrebounded Thurmond, 23-22.

Probably the most dominant individual season in NBA history...including the post-season.

[LAZERUSS]

And of course you wouldn't take a Grant of the 95-96 season because he got shitted on when MJ was finally back in shape with a full season under his belt. Swept alongside Shaq like they were nothing. :whatever:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Grant was injured in the 95-96 playoffs and played exactly one game, and 28 minutes against the Bulls...who BTW, had added HOFer Rodman. All Rodman did against the Grant-less Magic was average 12-16 .533.

Took yet ANOTHER all-time great PF ADDED to his already outstanding roster, to win his last three rings.

[nzahir]

LMFAO bro steals and blocks arent all that matters for defense; i seriously dont know if you are even serious rn

[Asukal]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Grant was injured in the 95-96 playoffs and played exactly one game, and 28 minutes against the Bulls...who BTW, had added HOFer Rodman. All Rodman did against the Grant-less Magic was average 12-16 .533.

Took yet ANOTHER all-time great PF ADDED to his already outstanding roster, to win his last three rings.

There you go again with your lies. Grant got injured against the bulls, he played the first two rounds before the ECF and did fine. That one game he played against the bulls, he did absolutely nothing. If you watched that series, the bulls lead by MJ applied incredible defensive pressure that put the Magic off their game. Btw, Rodman at that time was already past his prime. Wilt couldn't win against Russell in Russell's last finals with mr. Clutch's playing out of his mind. He chose to sit out the 4thQ instead because he had leg problems(who would've thought). :roll:

[sdot_thadon]

Wilt is arguably the greatest big man defender of all time, while MJ is arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time (top 5 at worst).

And of course, both are considered the best offensive players in history, bar none.

No two players rank as highly on BOTH offense and defense, which is why Wilt and MJ the two greatest players of all time.

In MJ's case, he was the goat scorer, while also being a defensive specialist akin to a Michael Cooper or Bruce Bowen (with shooting touch like Reggie Miller (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m57s))
.
Keep thinking Santa Claus is real kid......


Dude wasn't the best defender on his TEAM.
:applause: Not definitively anyway.

[LAZERUSS]

There you go again with your lies. Grant got injured against the bulls, he played the first two rounds before the ECF and did fine. That one game he played against the bulls, he did absolutely nothing. If you watched that series, the bulls lead by MJ applied incredible defensive pressure that put the Magic off their game. Btw, Rodman at that time was already past his prime. Wilt couldn't win against Russell in Russell's last finals with mr. Clutch's playing out of his mind. He chose to sit out the 4thQ instead because he had leg problems(who would've thought). :roll:

Grant played 28 minutes in ONE game. How come YOU didn't mention that in your original (and unresearched) post on the topic of that '96 series?

Yep...all Wilt could do against Russell in that game seven loss was outscore him, 18-6, outrebound him, 27-21, and outshoot him from the fleld by a 7-8 to 2-7 margin...all in five minutes less because his COACH kept him on the bench, in a two point loss. BTW, watch footage of that game seven...Russell was hiding the entire 4th quarter (BTW, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in that last period by a 7-2 margin...again...in five minutes less.) As ALWAYS, Wilt badly outplayed Russell.

And speaking of LIES, Chamberlain did NOT "choose" to sit the 4th quarter. He played seven minutes, in which his Lakers knocked off ten points from a 17 point deficit in just four minutes...injured his leg...sat for a couple of minutes, and then asked to go back in. His COACH refused, the Lakers lost, and VBK was essentially immediately fired right after the game.

Oh, and for the record, Chamberlain would shatter the knee on that same leg early in the very next season.

Next..

[DatAsh]

Wilt's definitely not a top 5 offensive player ever
Jordan's definitely not a top 5 defensive player ever

Unless you're talking relative to position, in which case I agree that they are, but I don't agree that they are the only ones.

[sd3035]

Durant is

[Asukal]

Grant played 28 minutes in ONE game. How come YOU didn't mention that in your original (and unresearched) post on the topic of that '96 series?

Yep...all Wilt could do against Russell in that game seven loss was outscore him, 18-6, outrebound him, 27-21, and outshoot him from the fleld by a 7-8 to 2-7 margin...all in five minutes less because his COACH kept him on the bench, in a two point loss. BTW, watch footage of that game seven...Russell was hiding the entire 4th quarter (BTW, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in that last period by a 7-2 margin...again...in five minutes less.) As ALWAYS, Wilt badly outplayed Russell.

And speaking of LIES, Chamberlain did NOT "choose" to sit the 4th quarter. He played seven minutes, in which his Lakers knocked off ten points from a 17 point deficit in just four minutes...injured his leg...sat for a couple of minutes, and then asked to go back in. His COACH refused, the Lakers lost, and VBK was essentially immediately fired right after the game.

Oh, and for the record, Chamberlain would shatter the knee on that same leg early in the very next season.

Next..

Wow wilt so strong he shattered his own knee. :applause:

Apparently, wilt could do everything in a game except.... win. :lol :roll: :oldlol:

[sd3035]

Wilt isn't even top 100 in either category

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's definitely not a top 5 offensive player ever
Jordan's definitely not a top 5 defensive player ever

Unless you're talking relative to position, in which case I agree that they are, but I don't agree that they are the only ones.

Hmmm...

The NBA RECORD BOOK would suggest otherwise...and by a HUGE margin.


NBA scoring records[edit]
NBA Record - Most Points Per Game in a season (50.4 in the 1961-62 season)
Chamberlain also holds the next three spots with 44.8 in 1962-63, 38.4 in 1960-61 and 37.6 in 1959-60.
NBA Record - Most Points in a season (4,029 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next highest with 3,586 in 1962-63
NBA Record - Most Points Scored in a Game (100 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
NBA Record - Most Points Scored in a Half (59 in the 2nd half vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
NBA Record - Most 50 Point Games in a season (45 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 30 in 1962-63. No other player has had more than 10. Only Michael Jordan (39 including playoffs) and Kobe Bryant (25 including playoffs) have more than 20 in their careers.
NBA Record - Most 40 Point Games in a season (63 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 52 in 1962-63. Michael Jordan is third with 37 in 1986-87.
NBA Record - Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League in Points Per Game (7)
Record shared with Michael Jordan.
NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 60 Point Games (32)
Kobe Bryant is second with 5.
NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 50 Point Games (118)
Michael Jordan is second with 31.
NBA Record - Most Career Regular Season 40 Point Games (271)[11]
Michael Jordan is second with 173.
NBA Record - Most Consecutive 50 Point Games (7 from December 16-29, 1961)
Chamberlain also holds the next three longest streaks with 6 in 1962, and 5 in 1961 and 1962.
NBA Record - Most Consecutive 40 Point Games (14 from December 8-30, 1961 and January 11-February 1, 1962)
Chamberlain also has the next most with 10 from November 9-25, 1962.
NBA Record - Most Consecutive 30 Point Games (65 from November 4, 1961-February 22, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next two longest streaks with 31 in 1962 and 25 in 1960.
NBA Record - Most Consecutive 20 Point Games (126 from October 19, 1961-January 19, 1963)
Chamberlain holds the next most with 92 from February 26, 1963-March 18, 1964.
NBA Record - Most points per game by a rookie (37.6 in 1959-60)
NBA Record - Most points by a rookie (2,707 in 1959-60)
NBA Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (58 on January 25, 1960 and February 21, 1960)
NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 20,000 Points (499, achieved in 1966)
Michael Jordan, at 620 games, took the second fewest games.
NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 25,000 Points (691, achieved on February 23, 1968 against the Detroit Pistons)
Michael Jordan, at 782 games, took the second fewest games.
NBA Record - Fewest Games Played to Reach 30,000 Points (941, achieved on February 16, 1972 against the Phoenix Suns)
Michael Jordan, at 960 games, took the second fewest games.
NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading the league in field goals made (7 from 1959-60 through 1965-66)
Shared with Michael Jordan
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a season (1,597 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next 3 spots with 1,463 in 1962-63, 1,251 in 1960-61, and 1,204 in 1963-64
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a season (3,159 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain holds the next four highest with 2,770, 2,457, 2,311, and 2,298.
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a Game (36 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next highest with 31, and is tied with Rick Barry at third with 30
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Game (63 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Chamberlain holds the next two most with 62 and 60.
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Made in a Half (22 in the 2nd half vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Half (37 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962 (2nd half)
NBA Record - Most Field Goals Attempted in a Quarter (21 in the 4th quarter vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
NBA Record - Most Free Throws Made in a Game (28 vs. the New York Knicks on March 2, 1962)
Record shared with Adrian Dantley
NBA Record - Most seasons leading the NBA in free throw attempts (9)
NBA Record - Most consecutive seasons leading the NBA in free throw attempts (6 from 1959-60 through 1964-65)
NBA Record - Most Free Throws Attempted in a season (1,363 in 1961-62)
Chamberlain also holds the next four spots with 1,113, 1,054, 1,016, and 991.
NBA Record - Oldest player in NBA history to score 60 points in a game: 32 years, 126 days (66 points vs Phoenix Suns on Feb 9, 1969)
NBA Playoff Record - Most points by a rookie in a game (53 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
Pulled down a rookie playoff record 35 rebounds in the same game.
Chamberlain also scored 50 as a rookie against the Boston Celtics on March 22, 1960.
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a seven game series (113 vs. the St. Louis Hawks in 1964)
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goals in a game (24 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 14, 1960)
Record shared with John Havlicek and Michael Jordan
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a game (48 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 22, 1962)
Record shared with Rick Barry
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a half (25 vs. the Syracuse Nationals on March 22, 1962)
Record shared with Elgin Baylor and Michael Jordan
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a three game series (104 vs. the Syracuse Nationals in 1960)
NBA Playoff Record - Most field goal attempts in a five game series (159 vs. the Syracuse Nationals in 1962)
NBA All-Star Game Record - Points in a game (42 in 1962)
NBA All-Star Game Record - Field goals in a half (10 in 1962)
Record shared with Blake Griffin
NBA All-Star Game Record - Free throw attempts in a game (16 in 1962)
Chamberlain also holds the second most attempts in an All-Star Game with 15 in 1960.
Other selected scoring facts[edit]
2nd highest career scoring average (30.07) — record held by Michael Jordan (30.12) [Note: Jordan scored 581 3-point field goals, which didn't exist at Wilt's time]
2nd most free throws made in a season (835 in 1961-62) — record held by Jerry West
2nd most free throws attempted in a Game (34 vs. the St. Louis Hawks on February 22, 1962) — record held by Dwight Howard
Chamberlain also holds third place with 32 on March 2, 1962.
2nd most points in an NBA All-Star Game half (23 in 1962) — record held by Glen Rice; 2nd place shared with Tom Chambers
2nd most field goals made in an NBA All-Star Game (17 in 1962) — record held by Blake Griffin; 2nd place shared with Kevin Garnett and Michael Jordan
2nd Youngest player to reach 30,000 points (35 years, 179 days) — record held by Kobe Bryant;[12]
2nd most Playoff games with at least 45 points: 8 — record held by Michael Jordan (23);
2nd most Playoff games with at least 50 points: 4 — record held by Michael Jordan (8);
3rd highest scoring average in Elimination games (31.1) — record held by LeBron James (31.7) followed by Michael Jordan (31.3);
Wilt Chamberlains is the only player to record at least 50 points in an Elimination game (a feat he accomplished three times).

[sd3035]

Wow wilt so strong he shattered his own knee. :applause:

Apparently, wilt could do everything in a game except.... win. :lol :roll: :oldlol:


https://media.giphy.com/media/d0MYTsbRnGKoU/giphy.gif

[Asukal]

Hmmm...

The NBA RECORD BOOK would suggest otherwise...and by a HUGE margin.

Regular season stat padding at its finest. No wonder he didn't learn how to win. :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

3ball ethering hoes all day

[sd3035]

Regular season stat padding at its finest. No wonder he didn't learn how to win. :oldlol:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/3887436/dean-omg-o.gif

[DatAsh]

Hmmm...

The NBA RECORD BOOK would suggest otherwise...and by a HUGE margin.

Which record book? Box score stats? Box score stats matter very little to me. I'm more concerned with the evidence that you're actually increasing your team's offense/defense.

No center would make my top 5 list of greatest offensive players ever. Given your views on Wilt, I already know we are going to have to agree to disagree on this, so lets just leave it at that.

[LAZERUSS]

Regular season stat padding at its finest. No wonder he didn't learn how to win. :oldlol:

Chamberlain holds a TON of POST-SEASON RECORDS as well.

For instance, give me a list of players who averaged a 30-20 post-season. ONLY Chamberlain, of which he accomplished that feat FOUR times.

How about 25-20 post-seasons? Again...ONLY Wilt, and with SIX.

How about 37-23 post-season series? Chamberlain with FOUR.

How about 50+ point games in MUST-WIN games...yep...ONLY Wilt...and THREE times.

I could list his post-season rebounding marks, but this is all you need to know...he played in 13 post-seasons, and his career LOW was 20.2 rpg.

If you go with "streak" records...like 20-20 games, he probably holds that by a huge margin. Same with 30-30 games.

DOMINANT.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[warriorfan]

Chamberlain holds a TON of POST-SEASON RECORDS as well.

For instance, give me a list of players who averaged a 30-20 post-season. ONLY Chamberlain, of which he accomplished that feat FOUR times.

How about 25-20 post-seasons? Again...ONLY Wilt, and with SIX.

How about 37-23 post-season series? Chamberlain with FOUR.

How about 50+ point games in MUST-WIN games...yep...ONLY Wilt...and THREE times.

I could list his post-season rebounding marks, but this is all you need to know...he played in 13 post-seasons, and his career LOW was 20.2 rpg.

If you go with "streak" records...like 20-20 games, he probably holds that by a huge margin. Same with 30-30 games.

DOMINANT.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

P
A
C
E

[BlakFrankWhite]

Kevin Durant

[LAZERUSS]

P
A
C
E

Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series, and was NEVER outrebounded by an opposing center. And in the ONE series in which he was outrebounded by anyone, it was by an all-time great rebounder (Jerry Lucas), and by ONE RPG. HOWEVER, when Lucas battled Wilt as a CENTER...a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lucas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 to 9.8 rpg margin.

PURE DOMINANCE.

[sd3035]

Kevin Durant

well said

[LAZERUSS]

Which record book? Box score stats? Box score stats matter very little to me. I'm more concerned with the evidence that you're actually increasing your team's offense/defense.

No center would make my top 5 list of greatest offensive players ever. Given your views on Wilt, I already know we are going to have to agree to disagree on this, so lets just leave it at that.

ORtg has it's place, but it also has it's flaws.


First of all, Chamberlain DRAMATICALLY raised his TEAM's offense.

'58-59, and before Wilt. ORtg: 7th out of 8 teams. BUT, 103.3 ppg in a league that averaged 108.2. And they shot .381 in a league that shot .395.

'59-60, Wilt's rookie season: ORtg: SEVENTH out of 8 teams. This is hilarious. Wilt's Warriors were THIRD in PPG, at 118.6, in a league that averaged 115.3 ppg. They did shoot slightly behind the league average, .409 to .410, but their actual OFFENSIVE PRODUCTION was a +8.2 over '59 (-4.9 to +3.3.) A STAGGERING increase.

'60-61: ORtg: SIXTH out of 8 teams. Yep, SIXTH, in a league in which they SECOND in PPG (and just barely out of FIRST), at 121.0, and in a league that averaged 118.1 ppg. They also finished SECOND in eFG%, at .424, in a league that shot .415. And, as would almost always be the case, they came in SECOND in FTAs.

'61-62: HILARIOUS. : ORtg of FOURTH. Just how FUNNY was that rating? They STEAMROLLED the NBA that year with one of the HIGHEST scoring seasons in NBA history, at 125.4 ppg....in a league that averaged 118.8 ppg. Oh, and they also were SECOND in eFG%, at .439, in a league that shot .426. FTAs? SECOND.

62-63: FIFTH in ORtg...in a league in which they were 4th in scoring, and 3rd in eFG%. Oh, and they outscored the league average by +3.2 ppg. That their DEFENSE was so horrible could directly be attributed to Wilt and a roster of 15 players who comprised the worst roster in NBA history.

63-64: 6th and deservedly so, despite another monster year from Wilt. Last in scoring, and a -3.3. Still, take Wilt's 36.9 ppg and .524 FG% away, and the team would have shot .402. BTW, there was not one player whoever came close to 20 ppg, whether with, or without Wilt, at any time in their careers on tthat roster except Thurmond, who was Wilt's backup and playing PF (and shooting .395.) As always, Wilt had virtually no help, and NONE of those players were ever decent offensive players at any time in their careers.

64-65: I won't bother breaking it down. The Warriors had no talent, and Wilt was ill for half the season (and played sick.) He was traded to a Sixer team, at mid-season (for three players.) A team that had gone 34-46 the year before and missed the playoffs. He SINGLE-HANDEDLY carried them into the playoffs, where he wiped out Oscar's 48-32 Royals in a first round romp, and then SINGLE-HANDEDLY carried that bottom-feeding team to a game seven, one point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team at it's peak. In a series in which he CARPET-BOMBED Russell with a staggering 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 series. CLEARLY Chamberlain's OFFENSE made a HUGE difference.

65-66: SIXTH out of 9 teams. Yeah right. FOURTH in scoring at 117.3 ppg, in a league that averaged 115.5 ppg (again + in differential), and SECOND in FG% at .446 in a league that shot .433.

66-67: Finally the ORtg gets it right. FIRST. And the reality was, it was one of the most dominant offensive teams of all-time. 125.2 ppg which blew away the league, (average was 117.4 ppg), on a .488 eFG%, which again, was miles better than the runnerup (.453), and WAY over the league average of .441. Oh, and they not only led the league in FTAs, they shot 400 more than the next best team. And even with a poor FT shooting Wilt...FIRST in FTM's! Wilt's IMPACT at the FT line in his ENTIRE career was just remarkable. Maybe I will prove it at another time, but not enough time tonight.

67-68: In a 12 team league...tied for FOURTH. . Ype, all while leading the NBA in scoring at 122.6 ppg in a league that averaged 116.6 (again, just a HUGE differential.) Oh, and they were SECOND (just barely) in FG%, at .471, in a league that shot .446 overall. FTAs? #1. And they easily outscored the league average in FTM's.

68-69: Wilt is traded from Philly to LA. His former team, the Sixers finish 4th in a 14 team league in ORtg. BUT, they also DECLINED in ppg from 122.6 down to 118.9. and their FG% dropped from .471 down to .454.

The Lakers: SEVENTH. But, this is interesting. The Lakers have West and Baylor take the BULK of the FGAs. Their ppg is nearly identical to '68 in both ppg and FG%, and they lead the league in FTAs. Clearly, this was a poorly coached team. And even despite that fact, and losing THREE quality players to get Wilt (Clark, Imhoff, and the Goodrich to the expansion draft), they IMPROVE from '68, going from 52-30 to 55-27. Meanwhile, his former Sixer team drops from 62-20 and a game seven loss in the EDFs (with an injury riddled roster) to 55-27 and a first round blowout loss.

69-70. Wilt is injured in game nine. They drop to 8th in ORtg, BUT 12th overall in ppg, and 7th in FG% (down from 6th and first in '69.) Oh, and remember them leading the league in FTAs in '69? Guess what, 12th in a 14 team league. BUT, in the post-season, and with Wilt back...200 more FTAs than the next best team, and they were MILES ahead of the Knicks in the Finals in FTM!

70-71. ORtg gets it right. With Baylor out for the entire season, and West missing the last 4th of it, Chamberlain STILL leads this team to a tie for 3rd. They actually were 6th in scoring, but as always, ahead of the league average, and second in eFG% (again with TWO HUGE losses.)

71-72: ORtg. FIRST. And even the ridiculous ORtg stat can't hide that fact. Arguably the greatest offensive team of all-time. They outscored the league average by a staggering 11 ppg, and the second best team was a full 5 ppg behind them.

72-73: ORtg. Again FIRST. This would be Wilt's last season.

Wilt "retires"...

73-74. His old team, the Lakers drop to TENTH in ORtg. Third in scoring and 12th in eFG%. And just a shell of the high scoring Wilt-led Laker teams.

CLEARLY, Chamberlain's OFFENSIVE IMPACT was STAGGERING almost his entire career.

[BlakFrankWhite]

Durant is better than Wit ever was

[LAZERUSS]

Durant is better than Wit ever was

At FT shooting and 3pt shooting? Oh sure. Of course, he has generally been better at both those than the vast majority of players in NBA history.

At everything else...Wilt, and sorry to say this...but it ain't even close.

Appreciate your take on FT and 3PT shooting, though.

[BlakFrankWhite]

Durant a better passer than Wilt.

[sd3035]

At FT shooting and 3pt shooting? Oh sure. Of course, he has generally been better at both those than the vast majority of players in NBA history.

At everything else...Wilt, and sorry to say this...but it ain't even close.

Appreciate your take on FT and 3PT shooting, though.


Durant is better at everything except for lying, and sleeping with men

[BlakFrankWhite]

If Durant shot 40 times a game....he'd average 70 PPG

[BlakFrankWhite]

Durant is better at everything except for lying, and sleeping with men

:lol :lol

:applause:

[dankok8]

Don't mean to spoil 3ball's party but on Dec 10, 1986, Dominique Wilkins dropped 57 points on 19/28 shooting on Jordan. In fact over their 42 regular season head-to-heads Nique outscored Jordan 22-20.

And then Kobe of course dropped 55 on old MJ on Mar 28, 2003.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Don't mean to spoil 3ball's party but on Dec 10, 1986, Dominique Wilkins dropped 57 points on 19/28 shooting on Jordan. In fact over their 42 regular season head-to-heads Nique outscored Jordan 22-20.

And then Kobe of course dropped 55 on old MJ on Mar 28, 2003.

Jordan used to guard Randy Wittman (Atlanta's SG) not Nique...

Jordan wasn't guarding Kobe, and that's a 40 years old MJ anyways...

You can discuss, even criticize WHY MJ didn't guard them... But don't say they dropped this or that ON Jordan, if he wasn't guarding them.

Not even defending 3ball or his points; ijs...

[TheMan]

Jordan used to guard Randy Wittman (Atlanta's SG) not Nique...

Jordan wasn't guarding Kobe, and that's a 40 years old MJ anyways...

You can discuss, even criticize WHY MJ didn't guard them... But don't say they dropped this or that ON Jordan, if he wasn't guarding them.

Not even defending 3ball or his points; ijs...
This

[Dbrog]

I'm curious the reasoning for some of you saying Wilt isnt top5 offense/defense. I literally can't see 1 argument. As for MJ, ya he's not top5 defense but that's not his fault since he's a SG. Top5 defensive SGs? Maybe but still probably not but then again that would be difficult to tell since he was asked to carry so much of the Bulls offense (probably made him significantly more tired defensively).

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm curious the reasoning for some of you saying Wilt isnt top5 offense/defense. I literally can't see 1 argument. As for MJ, ya he's not top5 defense but that's not his fault since he's a SG. Top5 defensive SGs? Maybe but still probably not but then again that would be difficult to tell since he was asked to carry so much of the Bulls offense (probably made him significantly more tired defensively).

Which 5 would you rank ahead of Jordan?

[Dbrog]

Which 5 would you rank ahead of Jordan?

I wouldn't really say they are definitive, but one could probably argue:
Joe Dumars
Tony Allen
Michael Cooper
Jerry West
Sidney Moncrief

Even then I'd probably choose Jordan.

If you added all guards it becomes very interesting and Jordan might be left out with guys like Glove and Frasier being added to GOAT defender lists. Jordan was amazing on defense though.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I wouldn't really say they are definitive, but one could probably argue:
Joe Dumars
Tony Allen
Michael Cooper
Jerry West
Sidney Moncrief

Even then I'd probably choose Jordan.

If you added all guards it becomes very interesting and Jordan might be left out with guys like Glove and Frasier being added to GOAT defender lists. Jordan was amazing on defense though.

Imho, as good as they were, there's no way I'd put Joey D or Jerry West (defensively) above Jordan, also not Tony Allen for that matter...

GOAT defensive SG's, considering everything, imo:

1. Moncrief
2. Jordan
3. Cooper
4. DJ (more of a SG at his peak)
5. Dumars/Allen (hard to tell exactly; you can also argue for West or even Kobe)

Overall guards? I'd have Moncrief, Payton, Jordan, Frazier and DJ.

As far as I'm concerned, Jordan's easily a top5 all-time defensive SG, even guard...

[SHAQisGOAT]

I'm curious the reasoning for some of you saying Wilt isnt top5 offense/defense. I literally can't see 1 argument. As for MJ, ya he's not top5 defense but that's not his fault since he's a SG. Top5 defensive SGs? Maybe but still probably not but then again that would be difficult to tell since he was asked to carry so much of the Bulls offense (probably made him significantly more tired defensively).

Defensively... I'd have Russell, Hakeem, KG, Duncan and Wilt as my all-time top5, I think.

Offensively... You got dudes like Jordan, Bird, Kareem, Shaq, Magic, LeBron, Barkley... Very tough to be featured, when you consider EVERYTHING, but Wilt definitely has a great case, I'd probably have him on my list.

[TheMan]

MJ getting mad disrespected here as a defender SMH :facepalm

Kids today :rolleyes:

[sdot_thadon]

MJ getting mad disrespected here as a defender SMH :facepalm

Kids today :rolleyes:
I don't really think they are disrespecting him by saying he's not top 5 all time defensively, do you? I feel that's a tough list for him to crack. Top 5 defensive sg should be without a question though. Seems like nobody gets it quite right with this guy. They either over the top overrate him or underrate him. We need a mj truth thread.

[andgar923]

Not saying MJ is definitely top 5 defender in general. But a legit case can be made when you consider his impact on both the inside and perimeter.

MJ was ALWAYS a threat defensively inside.

He disrupted plays by switching, deflected balls, took away position, forced bad shots and was a nightmare blocking (or threat of) from the weak side. Players and coaches have stated that teams wouldn't run many plays on MJ's side because he was a threat.

There's no need to mention his defensive abilities on the perimeter.

So when you combine the two, MJ does have a legit argument as a top 5 defender regardless of area.

[K Xerxes]

Not saying MJ is definitely top 5 defender in general. But a legit case can be made when you consider his impact on both the inside and perimeter.

MJ was ALWAYS a threat defensively inside.

He disrupted plays by switching, deflected balls, took away position, forced bad shots and was a nightmare blocking (or threat of) from the weak side. Players and coaches have stated that teams wouldn't run many plays on MJ's side because he was a threat.

There's no need to mention his defensive abilities on the perimeter.

So when you combine the two, MJ does have a legit argument as a top 5 defender regardless of area.

I have to disagree. Interior defenders have more impact than perimeter defenders because they patrol the higher percentage area. Almost EVERY player can drive into the paint and lay it up for easy points if you have terrible inside presence, but a dominant interior defender can alter shots in the paint and restrict the opposing team to lower percentage shots. It's just inherently more valuable.

When we take positions into account, MJ may well be a top 5 GOAT defender because he was so dominant on the perimeter. In the late 80s when he was probably at his athletic peak, he was everything you said he could be. And that version of him has a legitimate argument for GOAT perimeter defender. Maybe even better than peak Pip honestly.

But in terms of overall impact? As much as I love him I can't give him that. Top 5 defenders I've seen: Hakeem, KG, Duncan, DRob, Big Ben. Could throw in Mutombo, Ewing etc too. Big men should dominate.

[andgar923]

I have to disagree. Interior defenders have more impact than perimeter defenders because they patrol the higher percentage area. Almost EVERY player can drive into the paint and lay it up for easy points if you have terrible inside presence, but a dominant interior defender can alter shots in the paint and restrict the opposing team to lower percentage shots. It's just inherently more valuable.

When we take positions into account, MJ may well be a top 5 GOAT defender because he was so dominant on the perimeter. In the late 80s when he was probably at his athletic peak, he was everything you said he could be. And that version of him has a legitimate argument for GOAT perimeter defender. Maybe even better than peak Pip honestly.

But in terms of overall impact? As much as I love him I can't give him that. Top 5 defenders I've seen: Hakeem, KG, Duncan, DRob, Big Ben. Could throw in Mutombo, Ewing etc too. Big men should dominate.
I agree, not saying he is for a fact but that would be a legit solid argument to go with.

[Marchesk]

Wilt's definitely not a top 5 offensive player ever

Career average:

30.1 ppg, 4.4 apg, 54%

But that's not top 5 offensive all-time. :facepalm

Times led the league in scoring: 7

Top scoring seasons all time:

Wilt
Wilt
Wilt
MJ (if you don't count Baylor's shortened season)

[Straight_Ballin]

I wouldn't really say they are definitive, but one could probably argue:
Joe Dumars
Tony Allen
Michael Cooper
Jerry West
Sidney Moncrief

Even then I'd probably choose Jordan.

If you added all guards it becomes very interesting and Jordan might be left out with guys like Glove and Frasier being added to GOAT defender lists. Jordan was amazing on defense though.

If Jordan was told to be a defensive specialist and only that like many of the guys on your list, his defensive stats would tower over anyone who's ever played in the history of the game. The fact that he was #1 option of offense AND put up the defensive stats that he did just proves how he is the undisputed GOAT perimeter defender of all time. I don't know why we need a 4 page discussion on whether or not Jordan and Wilt are top #1 and #2 two way GOAT players. THe only thing anyone should be doing with regard to this conversation is nodding their head is a yes-like motion.

[dankok8]

Jordan used to guard Randy Wittman (Atlanta's SG) not Nique...

Jordan wasn't guarding Kobe, and that's a 40 years old MJ anyways...

You can discuss, even criticize WHY MJ didn't guard them... But don't say they dropped this or that ON Jordan, if he wasn't guarding them.

Not even defending 3ball or his points; ijs...

Maybe Jordan didn't always guard Nique especially after Pippen came aboard the following season but I've watched a lot of MJ-Nique duels and MJ spent A LOT OF TIME guarding him. I've seen it on tape.

Not sure about the Kobe game.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Maybe Jordan didn't always guard Nique especially after Pippen came aboard the following season but I've watched a lot of MJ-Nique duels and MJ spent A LOT OF TIME guarding him. I've seen it on tape.

Not sure about the Kobe game.

I've seen it too. Shit, plenty of them are up on youtube... Like I've said, Jordan mostly guarded Randy Wittman (and was mostly guarded by Randy on the other end, as well).

Nique was mostly guarded by Brad Sellers and Gene Banks, then Pippen came along.

That whole "MJ spent A LOT OF TIME guarding him" is a huge overstatement, just not to call it a straight up lie... Saying that Wilkins dropped 57 on him is just bullshit.
And I'm a big Dominique fan.

I'm sure about the Kobe game too... I don't even remember Bryant scoring once 1on1 vs MJ; maybe it happened but to simply put it, Jordan wasn't assigned to Kobe.
Anyways, Mike was 40 though...

[senelcoolidge]

I've seen it too. Shit, plenty of them are up on youtube... Like I've said, Jordan mostly guarded Randy Wittman (and was mostly guarded by Randy on the other end, as well).

Nique was mostly guarded by Brad Sellers and Gene Banks, then Pippen came along.

That whole "MJ spent A LOT OF TIME guarding him" is a huge overstatement, just not to call it a straight up lie... Saying that Wilkins dropped 57 on him is just bullshit.
And I'm a big Dominique fan.

I'm sure about the Kobe game too... I don't even remember Bryant scoring once 1on1 vs MJ; maybe it happened but to simply put it, Jordan wasn't assigned to Kobe.
Anyways, Mike was 40 though...


Name from the past wow. Brad Sellers. A 7'0" SF. He was so soft.

http://www.tradingcarddb.com/Images/Cards/Basketball/2075/2075-139Fr.jpg

[3ball]

MJ is the only scoring champ in history to win DPOY

/thread

[Kvnzhangyay]

MJ is the only scoring champ in history to win DPOY

/thread

Thats not even true...

[3ball]

And yet, Grant's IMPACT, was FAR greater.

Grant with Pippen. 55-27, and an eyelash away from winning a title. (Oh, and then Grant with Shaq...wiping out MJ's Bulls.)


The Bulls were a 2nd Round team with Grant in 1994.. This was after being 3-peat champions the prior year with MJ.. But carry on raving about Grant's "impact".. :rolleyes:

Otoh, MJ had the GOAT impact on both good teams (3-peat champion to 2nd Round in 1994) and bad teams (without MJ in 1989, the Bulls are lottery heading into the 1990 season, instead of starting a 3-peat in 1991).





Grant > Bosh


How I wish this were the case..

If a 1-time all-star from the 90's was better than today's 10-time all-star, that would prove how much weaker today's era is.. No one would ever even debate which era was better because it would be so obvious.

[3ball]

Thats not even true...
What other scoring champ won DPOY in the same season.. only MJ dumb****

[Kvnzhangyay]

What other scoring champ won DPOY in the same season.. only MJ dumb****

since when did you say the same season you dumb**** :facepalm

[3ball]

since when did you say the same season you dumb**** :facepalm


MJ and David Robinson are the only guys to ever do it (scoring champ and DPOY)...

But only MJ did it in the same season.. Scoring champ + DPOY in same season = GOAT individual season...

MJ's 1988 is the best TWO WAY season any player has ever had, and ever COULD have...

and therefore, it's the best individual season any player has ever had, or could have: #1 in defense and offense in same season.
.

[LAZERUSS]

The Bulls were a 2nd Round team with Grant in 1994.. This was after being 3-peat champions the prior year with MJ.. But carry on raving about Grant's "impact".. :rolleyes:

Otoh, MJ had the GOAT impact on both good teams (3-peat champion to 2nd Round in 1994) and bad teams (without MJ in 1989, the Bulls are lottery heading into the 1990 season, instead of starting a 3-peat in 1991).



How I wish this were the case..

If a 1-time all-star from the 90's was better than today's 10-time all-star, that would prove how much weaker today's era is.. No one would ever even debate which era was better because it would be so obvious.

And with MJ replacing Grant, the Bulls had an even WORSE second round exit.

Not only that, but Grant goes to the Magic, who had gone 50-32 the year before, and elevates them to a 60-22 record. And then he proceeded to destroy MJ's Bulls in the '95 ECSF's with an 18-11 .647 stat-line, and as amazing as that was, it did not come close to showing his IMPACT in that series, either.

But, Jlip did show that IMPACT here...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357166


Meanwhile, Bosh without Lebron a career LOSER.

Grant >>>>> Bosh.

[Kvnzhangyay]

And with MJ replacing Grant, the Bulls had an even WORSE second round exit.

Not only that, but Grant goes to the Magic, who had gone 50-32 the year before, and elevates them to a 60-22 record. And then he proceeded to destroy MJ's Bulls in the '95 ECSF's with an 18-11 .647 stat-line, and as amazing as that was, it did not come close to showing his IMPACT in that series, either.

But, Jlip did show that IMPACT here...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357166


Meanwhile, Bosh without Lebron a career LOSER.

Grant >>>>> Bosh.

This. I hate how the media portrays Jordan as not playing in the '95 playoffs (probably to diminish the Rocket's 2nd championship with the false media narrative "Houston wouldn't have won if MJ played" , when in reality he did when they lost in 6 to orlando

[3ball]

And with MJ replacing Grant, the Bulls had an even WORSE second round exit.


MJ was playing with a completely new team - virtually every single player was new except Pippen..

Even MJ can't win a ring by playing only 17 games cold turkey with a completely new team.. But you think he should, which shows how GOAT you really think he is deep down in your heart.. You've exposed yourself.

You obviously think MJ is by FAR the GOAT, otherwise you'd never set the standard so high for him, while letting Wilt **** up all the time and lose his ASS in the playoffs.
.

[LAZERUSS]

MJ was playing with a completely new team - virtually every single player was new except Pippen..

Even MJ can't win a ring by playing only 17 games cold turkey with a completely new team.. But you think he should, which shows how GOAT you really think he is deep down in your heart.. You've exposed yourself.

You obviously think MJ is by FAR the GOAT, otherwise you'd never set the standard so high for him, while letting Wilt **** up all the time and lose his ASS in the playoffs.



You're giving Grant credit for winning with Shaq and Penny?

:roll:

Now I've heard it all.. Have a nice night dude

COLD TURKEY???

:roll: :roll: :roll:

17 games. He was easily the healthiest player going into the playoffs.

As for Wilt. Chamberlain had major knee surgery, came back way ahead of schedule, and at nowhere near 100%, played the last THREE regular season games, and then proceeded to carry his 46-36 team to a game seven loss against the 60-22 Knicks in the Finals....with the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.)

That was IMPACT.


And I'm given Grant credit for taking a 50-32 team to a 60-22 season, and then DOMINATING in the ECSF's against MJ's Bulls.

[3ball]

(Horace made Finals without MJ).. Meanwhile, Bosh without Lebron a career LOSER.


You're giving Grant credit for winning with Shaq and Penny?

:roll:

Now I've heard it all.. Have a nice night dude

[iamgine]

MJ top 5 all time:

Offense:

Among SGs: yes
Among everybody: yes


Defense:

Among SGs: yes
Among everybody: no


It is just as simple as that.

[sekachu]

If MJ had remained the defender he was in 1988 he would definitely have a case for GOAT defense but he was like Kobe in regards that they were beasts defensively when they were young, then relied on that in their latter years for their defensive reputation, and maintaining it by spot defending star players in big games.

MJ lockdown defense on elite perimeter player in playoff.

Jordan shuts down Reggie Miller - 0 pts in 4th qtr - 1998 ECF Game 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPlPNDXkIYk

Michael Jordan shuts down Kevin Johnson - 1993 Finals Game 3 (3OT)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw

Jordan shuts down Rod Strickland - 1997 1st Rd Game 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8

Michael Jordan locks down Penny Hardaway - 1996 NBA ECF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAtNOjco8yQ

Michael Jordan locks down Tim Hardaway - 1996 1st Rd Game 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s

Michael Jordan Defense on Penny Hardaway - 1996 ECF Game 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdcxo7dHZhg

Michael Jordan shuts down Gary Payton - 1996 Finals Game 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw

Michael Jordan locks down Gary Payton - 1996 Finals Game 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg

Michael Jordan shuts down Clyde Drexler - 1992 Finals Game 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a1UpFreLUI

Jordan shuts down Isiah Thomas - 9 pts (3/18 FG) - 1989 ECF Game 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q53GLDrhMkY

[TheMan]

COLD TURKEY???

:roll: :roll: :roll:

17 games. He was easily the healthiest player going into the playoffs.

As for Wilt. Chamberlain had major knee surgery, came back way ahead of schedule, and at nowhere near 100%, played the last THREE regular season games, and then proceeded to carry his 46-36 team to a game seven loss against the 60-22 Knicks in the Finals....with the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.)

That was IMPACT.


And I'm given Grant credit for taking a 50-32 team to a 60-22 season, and then DOMINATING in the ECSF's against MJ's Bulls.
GOAT troll :bowdown:

[3ball]

MJ top 5 all time:

Offense:

Among non-bigs: yes
Among everybody: yes


Defense:

Among non-bigs: yes
Among everybody: no


It is just as simple as that.


There fixed your post.

Among non-bigs, MJ is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on offense and defense.

Among big men, Wilt is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on offense and defense.

It's as simple as that.

[Dbrog]

I don't really know why I haven't posted this, but Hakeem and Jabbar clearly fall into this category too.

Hakeem's best playoffs was probably 29/11/4/4(blks)/almost 2 stl/gm.
Jabbar went nuts with 35/18/4/3.5/almost 2 stl/gm

These dudes were just nasty and honestly had significantly more impact that Jordan in the postseasons defensively. To say Wilt and MJ are the only ones that could be considered here is a farce.

[3ball]

I don't really know why I haven't posted this, but Hakeem and Jabbar clearly fall into this category too.

To say Wilt and MJ are the only ones that could be considered here is a farce.


It's a fact that Hakeem is not top 5 offensively among big men, and Kareem isn't top 5 defensively.

Among big men, Wilt is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

Among non-bigs, MJ is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

It's that simple

[Kvnzhangyay]

It's a fact that Hakeem is not top 5 offensively among big men, and Kareem isn't top 5 defensively.

Among big men, Wilt is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

Among non-bigs, MJ is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

It's that simple

How is Hakeem not top 5 in offense?

[sdot_thadon]

MJ top 5 all time:

Offense:

Among SGs: yes
Among everybody: yes


Defense:

Among SGs: yes
Among everybody: no


It is just as simple as that.
This.

[Dbrog]

It's a fact that Hakeem is not top 5 offensively among big men, and Kareem isn't top 5 defensively.

Among big men, Wilt is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

Among non-bigs, MJ is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

It's that simple

Oh yes I forgot that personalized rankings are facts. I should quit posting...

[3ball]

This.
And this:

Among big men, Wilt is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

Among non-bigs, MJ is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

[3ball]

MJ lockdown defense on elite perimeter player in playoff.

Jordan shuts down Reggie Miller - 0 pts in 4th qtr - 1998 ECF Game 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPlPNDXkIYk

Michael Jordan shuts down Kevin Johnson - 1993 Finals Game 3 (3OT)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw

Jordan shuts down Rod Strickland - 1997 1st Rd Game 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8

Michael Jordan locks down Penny Hardaway - 1996 NBA ECF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAtNOjco8yQ

Michael Jordan locks down Tim Hardaway - 1996 1st Rd Game 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s

Michael Jordan Defense on Penny Hardaway - 1996 ECF Game 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdcxo7dHZhg

Michael Jordan shuts down Gary Payton - 1996 Finals Game 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw

Michael Jordan locks down Gary Payton - 1996 Finals Game 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg

Michael Jordan shuts down Clyde Drexler - 1992 Finals Game 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a1UpFreLUI

Jordan shuts down Isiah Thomas - 9 pts (3/18 FG) - 1989 ECF Game 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q53GLDrhMkY
:applause:

The tape doesn't lie like posters itt

[DFish24]

The only Top 5 list that Wilt is on is choking.

[OldSchoolBBall]

How is Hakeem not top 5 in offense?

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Lebron, Shaq, Wilt and KAJ are all better than Hakeem offensively at a minimum.

[RRR3]

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Lebron, Shaq, Wilt and KAJ are all better than Hakeem offensively at a minimum.
Jordan Magic Bird and Bran aren't big men.

Hakeem would have a good case for top 5 offensive big men would he not?

The OP seems to indicate Jordan is not top 5 all time defensively for all players but rather top 5 for non big men. Thus Hakeem would have to be ranked accordingly (top 5 offense for bigs only) or OP is hypocritical.

[poeticism707]

.
Among big men, Wilt is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

Among non-bigs, MJ is the only player in history who ranks top 5 all-time on both offense and defense.

No two players rank as highly on BOTH offense and defense, which is why Wilt and MJ the two greatest players of all time.

In MJ's case, he was the goat scorer, while also being a defensive specialist akin to a Michael Cooper or Bruce Bowen (with shooting touch like Reggie Miller (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m57s))
.
.

Wrong.

Top 5 all time, offense and defense combined:

Tim Duncan

Jordan

Kareem

Magic

Wilt/Bird

Duncan gets the GOAT nod over Jordan and Kareem, even a still a title short, because he is HEADS AND SHOULDERS BETTER AT TEAM D THAN BOTH.

Their biggest strength, scorers, isn't enough to offset TD's advantage in team defence.

Team Defence >>>>Individual Defense, especially for a franchise big man like TD.

[DatAsh]

Career average:

30.1 ppg, 4.4 apg, 54%

But that's not top 5 offensive all-time. :facepalm

Times led the league in scoring: 7

Top scoring seasons all time:

Wilt
Wilt
Wilt
MJ (if you don't count Baylor's shortened season)

Sorry for the late response, but I don't read this site all that often anymore. I don't fault anyone for seeing Wilt as top 5 offensive player ever, and I suspect that people that do are in the majority.


*Below is my brief, poor attempt to explain my reasoning

While I definitely take box score statistics into consideration, they're very low on the list of things I consider when evaluating offensive and (especially)defensive impact. I've done quite a bit of research into this subject, and I've yet to really see a convincing argument in favor of box score statistics that sways me from my viewpoint - though I'm certainly open to such an argument.

[RRR3]

Sorry for the late response, but I don't read this site all that often anymore. I don't fault anyone for seeing Wilt as top 5 offensive player ever, and I suspect that people that do are in the majority.


*Below is my brief, poor attempt to explain my reasoning

While I definitely take box score statistics into consideration, they're very low on the list of things I consider when evaluating offensive and (especially)defensive impact. I've done quite a bit of research into this subject, and I've yet to really see a convincing argument in favor of box score statistics that sways me from my viewpoint - though I'm certainly open to such an argument.
Who are your top 5 offensive players?

[Fallen Angel]

To think that Hakeem Olajuwon isn't the most skilled center in NBA History and the greatest defensive center in NBA History is blasphemous.

The offense is self explanatory.
The defense: http://bkref.com/tiny/xdux8

[DatAsh]

Who are your top 5 offensive players?

That's a really tough question

Magic is number one, of that I'm convinced.

I'll say Jordan, Bird, Lebron, and Oscar for the other 4

[Kvnzhangyay]

That's a really tough question

Magic is number one, of that I'm convinced.

I'll say Jordan, Bird, Lebron, and Oscar for the other 4

No shaq or hakeem?

Sorry never watched oscar so probably underrating him

[RRR3]

That's a really tough question

Magic is number one, of that I'm convinced.

I'll say Jordan, Bird, Lebron, and Oscar for the other 4
Sounds good. :cheers:

[3ball]

Magic is number one offensively, of that I'm convinced.

I'll say Jordan, Bird, Lebron, and Oscar for the other 4


But this thread is about offense AND defense..

Among non-big men (including everyone you just mentioned), MJ is the only player that is top 5 all-time in both offense and defense.

[Dr Hawk]

But this thread is about offense AND defense..

Among non-big men (including everyone you just mentioned), MJ is the only player that is top 5 all-time in both offense and defense.

Do you agree Magic was better offensively than Jordan? I'm not sure

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe is a top 5 guard defender all time..

#1 in all defensive 1st teams
#1 in all defensive teams period
#11 in steals among guards
#5 in blocks among guards

And hes probably a top 5-10 rebounder for a guard all time

[Paul George 24]

At FT shooting and 3pt shooting? Oh sure. Of course, he has generally been better at both those than the vast majority of players in NBA history.

At everything else...Wilt, and sorry to say this...but it ain't even close.

Appreciate your take on FT and 3PT shooting, though.
WILT IS A PLAYOFFS CHOKER WHO NEVER SHOWUP IN BIG GAMES

[Paul George 24]

Kobe is a top 5 guard defender all time..

#1 in all defensive 1st teams
#1 in all defensive teams period
#11 in steals among guards
#5 in blocks among guards

And hes probably a top 5-10 rebounder for a guard all time
BUT JORDAN IS BETTER

[LAZERUSS]

WILT IS A PLAYOFFS CHOKER WHO NEVER SHOWUP IN BIG GAMES

Please provide us all here some examples.

[DatAsh]

But this thread is about offense AND defense..

Among non-big men (including everyone you just mentioned), MJ is the only player that is top 5 all-time in both offense and defense.

I was responding to a question of who my top 5 offensive players ever were.

Personally, I don't think anyone is top 5 in both offense and defense. Wilt is closer to top 5 offense than Jordan is top 5 defense though. Again, that's just my opinion.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

For once, I agree. Add in the fact that Chamberlain, was by far, the greatest rebounder in NBA history, and easily the greatest shot-blocker...

well, you can see why he has a strong case as the GOAT. Only MJ would have a case over him, and even that is very close.
You dont add rebounding and shotblocking lol WTF
offensive rebounding is a part of offense. Defensive rebounding and blocking is a part of defense. Those 2 represent all of both sides of the ball

Wilt isnt top 5 on defense either
Russell, KG, Hakeem, Robinson, Big Ben, Ewing, Duncan, Thurmond were all better defenders

MJ isnt top 5 on D either

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

To think that Hakeem Olajuwon isn't the most skilled center in NBA History and the greatest defensive center in NBA History is blasphemous.

The offense is self explanatory.
The defense: http://bkref.com/tiny/xdux8
uhhh yknow they dont have complete block and steals numbers from 50s and 60s right

[Rose'sACL]

In my non-big defensive rankings, ability to defend quality SFs count a lot too. This was the reason Pippen was a better defender than Jordan on those bulls teams. Pippen could even defend some PFs.

[Round Mound]

That Would Wilt and Hakeem IMO.

[3ball]

Do you agree Magic was better offensively than Jordan? I'm not sure


Doesn't matter..

This thread is about how among non big men, MJ is the only player ranked in Top 5 on both offense and defense.. And among bigs, Wilt is the only one.

But to answer your question.. No, of course not.. MJ destroyed Magic heads-up in the 1991 Finals, by averaging 31/7/11 on 56%, to Magic's 19/7/13 on 48%.. It was perfect because Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 regular season, while MJ won it.

Equally revealing was the time MJ averaged 31/9/11/51 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-346-sum:pgl_basic) when coach Doug Collins put him at point guard for the last 24 games of the 1989 season - this included his famous stretch (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games) of 10 triple doubles in 11 games..

MJ's streak of triple-doubles gave him 15 for the season, only 2 shy of Magic's post-1970 record.. If MJ had played point guard the entire season, he would've doubled Magic's record.. Media outlets, coaches, and players proclaimed that he was already the best PG (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/) in the game.

[3ball]

Personally, I don't think MJ is top 5 all time on defense out of everybody.


You're mis-reading the OP.

It says OUT OF NON-BIG MEN (non pf's and centers), jordan is the only player ranked top 5 on both offense and defense.

And out of big men, only wilt is ranked top 5 on offense and defense.

Also, all these clowns screaming for hakeem don't realize this guy didn't have elite post moves or ANY of that footwork until around 1993-1994... It's well-known that for 2/3 of his career, he relied on his athleticism and had very little footwork, other than an unpolished turnaround jumpshot..

That's the eye test and consensus of everyone.. Now look at his stats - his offensive stats are nowhere near top 5 OAT.

[Kvnzhangyay]

You're mis-reading the OP.

It says OUT OF NON-BIG MEN (non pf's and centers), jordan is the only player ranked top 5 on both offense and defense.

And out of big men, only wilt is ranked top 5 on offense and defense.

Also, all these clowns screaming for hakeem don't realize this guy didn't have elite post moves or ANY of that footwork until around 1993-1994... It's well-known that for 2/3 of his career, he relied on his athleticism and had very little footwork, other than an unpolished turnaround jumpshot..

That's the eye test and consensus of everyone.. Now look at his stats - his offensive stats are nowhere near top 5 OAT.

Peakwise he most certainly does :biggums:

[Round Mound]

You're mis-reading the OP.

It says OUT OF NON-BIG MEN (non pf's and centers), jordan is the only player ranked top 5 on both offense and defense.

And out of big men, only wilt is ranked top 5 on offense and defense.

Also, all these clowns screaming for hakeem don't realize this guy didn't have elite post moves or ANY of that footwork until around 1993-1994... It's well-known that for 2/3 of his career, he relied on his athleticism and had very little footwork, other than an unpolished turnaround jumpshot..

That's the eye test and consensus of everyone.. Now look at his stats - his offensive stats are nowhere near top 5 OAT.

:no:

Should Watch Hakeem Play vs The 86 Celtics (in his 2nd Season To The NBA Finals in the Best Decade Ever In NBA History):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz1wyL8neEM

You Do Realize That Hakeem Not Only Lead The League IN REBOUNDING and BLOCK SHOTS...He Averaged Almost as Much Steals Per Game As Some GREAT Guards (not just normal Guards) and BEST AMONG CENTERS ALL TIME while Scoring 25 Plus PPG on 50% FG

THATS "BOTH ENDS" DOMINATION.

You Do Realize That Hakeem in his Prime With the Rockets (85-95) Beat Jordan More Times Than Jordan Beat Him Right?

Scottie Pippen Was The DEFENSIVE ANCHOR FOR THE BULLS, THE BEST PLAY MAKER FOR THE BULLS Aswell and THE BEST ALL AROUND DEFENDER FOR THE BULLS

Not to Forget PHIL JACKSON as Coach: RODMAN, KUKOC, GRANT....

Jordan From 1988 Onwards Had GREAT TEAMATES...WAY BETTER THAN OTHER SUPERSTARS DURING THE 90s ERA:

Jordan Jockers :roll: :facepalm :rolleyes: :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Peakwise he most certainly does :biggums:
:biggums:



NBA & ABA Single Season Leaders and Records for Points



1. Wilt Chamberlain* 4029 1961-62 PHW
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 3586 1962-63 SFW
3. Michael Jordan* 3041 1986-87 CHI
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 3033 1960-61 PHW
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 2948 1963-64 SFW
6. Michael Jordan* 2868 1987-88 CHI
7. Kobe Bryant 2832 2005-06 LAL
8. Bob McAdoo* 2831 1974-75 BUF
9. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2822 1971-72 MIL
10. Rick Barry* 2775 1966-67 SFW
11. Michael Jordan* 2753 1989-90 CHI
12. Elgin Baylor* 2719 1962-63 LAL
Tiny Archibald* 2719 1972-73 KCO
14. Wilt Chamberlain* 2707 1959-60 PHW
15. Wilt Chamberlain* 2649 1965-66 PHI
16. Charlie Scott 2637 1971-72 TOT
17. Michael Jordan* 2633 1988-89 CHI
18. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2596 1970-71 MIL
19. Kevin Durant 2593 2013-14 OKC
20. George Gervin* 2585 1979-80 SAS
21. Michael Jordan* 2580 1990-91 CHI
22. George Gervin* 2551 1981-82 SAS
23. Michael Jordan* 2541 1992-93 CHI
24. Karl Malone* 2540 1989-90 UTA
25. Elgin Baylor* 2538 1960-61 LAL
Dan Issel* 2538 1971-72 KEN
27. Wilt Chamberlain* 2534 1964-65 TOT
28. Moses Malone* 2520 1981-82 HOU
29. Spencer Haywood* 2519 1969-70 DNR
30. Rick Barry* 2518 1971-72 NYA
31. Walt Bellamy* 2495 1961-62 CHP
32. Michael Jordan* 2491 1995-96 CHI
33. Oscar Robertson* 2480 1963-64 CIN
Dan Issel* 2480 1970-71 KEN
35. LeBron James 2478 2005-06 CLE
36. Jerry West* 2476 1965-66 LAL
37. Kevin Durant 2472 2009-10 OKC
38. Julius Erving* 2462 1975-76 NYA
39. Kobe Bryant 2461 2002-03 LAL
40. Adrian Dantley* 2457 1981-82 UTA
41. Adrian Dantley* 2452 1980-81 UTA
42. Rick Barry* 2450 1974-75 GSW
43. Oscar Robertson* 2432 1961-62 CIN
44. Michael Jordan* 2431 1996-97 CHI
45. Kobe Bryant 2430 2006-07 LAL
46. Bob Pettit* 2429 1961-62 STL
47. Bob McAdoo* 2427 1975-76 BUF
48. Adrian Dantley* 2418 1983-84 UTA
49. Alex English* 2414 1985-86 DEN
50. Oscar Robertson* 2412 1966-67 CIN
51. Tracy McGrady 2407 2002-03 ORL
52. Michael Jordan* 2404 1991-92 CHI
53. Dominique Wilkins* 2397 1987-88 ATL
54. Dwyane Wade 2386 2008-09 MIA
55. David Robinson* 2383 1993-94 SAS
56. Karl Malone* 2382 1990-91 UTA
57. Jerry Stackhouse 2380 2000-01 DET
58. Oscar Robertson* 2378 1965-66 CIN
59. Shaquille O'Neal 2377 1993-94 ORL
Allen Iverson 2377 2005-06 PHI
61. Dominique Wilkins* 2366 1985-86 ATL
62. George Gervin* 2365 1978-79 SAS
63. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2361 1969-70 MIL
64. Michael Jordan* 2357 1997-98 CHI
65. George McGinnis 2353 1974-75 INA
66. Elvin Hayes* 2350 1970-71 SDR
67. Patrick Ewing* 2347 1989-90 NYK
68. Gilbert Arenas 2346 2005-06 WAS
69. Alex English* 2345 1986-87 DEN
70. Shaquille O'Neal 2344 1999-00 LAL
71. Julius Erving* 2343 1974-75 NYA
72. John Havlicek* 2338 1970-71 BOS
Jack Twyman* 2338 1959-60 CIN
74. Mark Aguirre 2330 1983-84 DAL
75. Elvin Hayes* 2327 1968-69 SDR
76. Alex English* 2326 1982-83 DEN
Karl Malone* 2326 1988-89 UTA
78. Kobe Bryant 2323 2007-08 LAL
79. Shaquille O'Neal 2315 1994-95 ORL
John Brisker 2315 1970-71 PTC
81. Michael Jordan* 2313 1984-85 CHI
82. Jerry West* 2310 1961-62 LAL
83. Jerry West* 2309 1969-70 LAL
84. LeBron James 2304 2008-09 CLE
85. Richie Guerin* 2303 1961-62 NYK
86. Allen Iverson 2302 2004-05 PHI
87. Ralph Simpson 2300 1971-72 DNR
88. Julius Erving* 2299 1973-74 NYA
89. Kiki Vandeweghe 2295 1983-84 DEN
Larry Bird* 2295 1984-85 BOS
91. Dominique Wilkins* 2294 1986-87 ATL
92. Jerry West* 2292 1964-65 LAL
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2292 1972-73 MIL
Dan Issel* 2292 1972-73 KEN
95. Julius Erving* 2290 1971-72 VIR
96. Kevin Durant 2280 2012-13 OKC
97. Oscar Robertson* 2279 1964-65 CIN
98. Charlie Scott 2276 1970-71 VIR
99. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2275 1975-76 LAL
Larry Bird* 2275 1987-88 BOS
101. Pete Maravich* 2273 1976-77 NOJ
102. Karl Malone* 2272 1991-92 UTA
103. Julius Erving* 2268 1972-73 VIR
Karl Malone* 2268 1987-88 UTA
105. Adrian Dantley* 2267 1985-86 UTA
106. Oscar Robertson* 2264 1962-63 CIN
Charles Barkley* 2264 1987-88 PHI
108. Alex English* 2262 1984-85 DEN
Allen Iverson 2262 2002-03 PHI
110. George McGinnis 2261 1972-73 INA
Bob McAdoo* 2261 1973-74 BUF
112. LeBron James 2258 2009-10 CLE
Bob Verga 2258 1969-70 CAR
114. Elvin Hayes* 2256 1969-70 SDR
115. Dale Ellis 2253 1988-89 SEA
116. John Havlicek* 2252 1971-72 BOS
117. Spencer Haywood* 2251 1972-73 SEA
118. LeBron James 2250 2007-08 CLE
119. Karl Malone* 2249 1996-97 UTA
120. World B. Free 2244 1978-79 SDC
121. Bob Pettit* 2241 1962-63 STL
122. David Robinson* 2238 1994-95 SAS
123. Walt Bellamy* 2233 1962-63 CHZ
124. George Gervin* 2232 1977-78 SAS
125. Moses Malone* 2222 1980-81 HOU
126. George Gervin* 2221 1980-81 SAS
127. Karl Malone* 2217 1992-93 UTA
James Harden 2217 2014-15 HOU
Dominique Wilkins* 2217 1984-85 ATL
130. Dave Bing* 2213 1970-71 DET
131. Allen Iverson 2207 2000-01 PHI
132. Tom Chambers 2201 1989-90 PHO
Mack Calvin 2201 1970-71 FLO
Kobe Bryant 2201 2008-09 LAL
135. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 2191 1973-74 MIL
136. Bob Pettit* 2190 1963-64 STL
Karl Malone* 2190 1997-98 UTA
138. Karl Malone* 2187 1994-95 UTA
139. Purvis Short 2186 1984-85 GSW
Kiki Vandeweghe 2186 1982-83 DEN
141. Clyde Drexler* 2185 1987-88 POR
142. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2184 1993-94 HOU
143. Chris Mullin* 2176 1988-89 GSW
144. Alex English* 2175 1988-89 DEN
LeBron James 2175 2004-05 CLE
146. David Thompson* 2172 1977-78 DEN
147. Tiny Archibald* 2170 1974-75 KCO
148. Alex English* 2167 1983-84 DEN
149. Oscar Robertson* 2165 1960-61 CIN
150. Allen Iverson 2164 2007-08 DEN

[Round Mound]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_yearly.html

NBA & ABA Year-by-Year Leaders and Records for Defensive Win Shares


Season Lg Player DWS Tm

2014-15 NBA DeAndre Jordan 5.39 LAC
2013-14 NBA Joakim Noah 6.63 CHI
2012-13 NBA Paul George 6.28 IND
2011-12 NBA Josh Smith 4.90 ATL
2010-11 NBA Dwight Howard 7.68 ORL
2009-10 NBA Dwight Howard 7.13 ORL
2008-09 NBA Dwight Howard 7.56 ORL
2007-08 NBA Dwight Howard 6.45 ORL
2006-07 NBA Tim Duncan 6.78 SAS
2005-06 NBA Tim Duncan 6.88 SAS
2004-05 NBA Ben Wallace 6.72 DET
2003-04 NBA Ben Wallace 9.08 DET
2002-03 NBA Ben Wallace 7.85 DET
2001-02 NBA Ben Wallace 7.24 DET
2000-01 NBA Tim Duncan 7.07 SAS
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 6.99 LAL
1998-99 NBA Tim Duncan 4.68 SAS
1997-98 NBA Tim Duncan 7.17 SAS
1996-97 NBA Patrick Ewing* 6.87 NYK
1995-96 NBA David Robinson* 7.19 SAS
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 6.74 SAS
1993-94 NBA Patrick Ewing* 7.98 NYK
1992-93 NBA Patrick Ewing* 8.05 NYK
1991-92 NBA Dennis Rodman* 7.00 DET
1990-91 NBA David Robinson* 7.64 SAS
1989-90 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 8.74 HOU
1988-89 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 7.81 HOU
1987-88 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 6.32 HOU
1986-87 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 6.02 HOU
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 6.17 BOS
1984-85 NBA Mark Eaton 6.75 UTA
1983-84 NBA Larry Bird* 5.62 BOS
1982-83 NBA Rick Mahorn 6.20 WSB
1981-82 NBA Jack Sikma 6.74 SEA
1980-81 NBA Larry Bird* 6.10 BOS
1979-80 NBA Larry Bird* 5.61 BOS

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_yearly.html

NBA & ABA Year-by-Year Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating

Season Lg Player DRtg Tm

2014-15 NBA Kawhi Leonard 96.39 SAS
2013-14 NBA Joakim Noah 95.82 CHI
2012-13 NBA Tim Duncan 94.97 SAS
2011-12 NBA Kevin Garnett 94.21 BOS
2010-11 NBA Dwight Howard 94.18 ORL
2009-10 NBA Dwight Howard 95.44 ORL
2008-09 NBA Dwight Howard 94.56 ORL
2007-08 NBA Kevin Garnett 93.85 BOS
2006-07 NBA Tim Duncan 94.45 SAS
2005-06 NBA Tim Duncan 94.41 SAS
2004-05 NBA Tim Duncan 93.17 SAS
2003-04 NBA Ben Wallace 87.48 DET
2002-03 NBA Ben Wallace 89.99 DET
2001-02 NBA Ben Wallace 92.89 DET
2000-01 NBA Marcus Camby 90.56 NYK
1999-00 NBA David Robinson* 92.22 SAS
1998-99 NBA David Robinson* 87.94 SAS
1997-98 NBA David Robinson* 93.61 SAS
1996-97 NBA Alonzo Mourning* 95.31 MIA
1995-96 NBA David Robinson* 96.45 SAS
1994-95 NBA Scottie Pippen* 98.25 CHI
1993-94 NBA Patrick Ewing* 92.88 NYK
1992-93 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1991-92 NBA David Robinson* 94.38 SAS
1990-91 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 93.39 HOU
1989-90 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 93.43 HOU
1988-89 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 94.86 HOU
1987-88 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 98.05 HOU
1986-87 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 98.75 HOU
1985-86 NBA Bill Walton* 97.49 BOS
1984-85 NBA Mark Eaton 96.50 UTA
1983-84 NBA Alton Lister 98.63 MIL
1982-83 NBA Alton Lister 96.19 MIL
1981-82 NBA Jack Sikma 97.23 SEA
1980-81 NBA Alvan Adams 96.24 PHO
1979-80 NBA Tree Rollins 95.90 ATL

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dbpm_career.html

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Defensive Box Plus/Minus

NBA/ABARank Player DBPM

1. Ben Wallace 5.52
2. Mark Eaton 5.21
3. Marcus Camby 4.59
4. David Robinson* 4.30
5. George Johnson 4.09
6. Joakim Noah 4.07
7. Bo Outlaw 4.01
8. Tim Duncan 3.99
9. Sam Lacey 3.88
10. Tree Rollins 3.88
11. Hakeem Olajuwon* 3.84

161. Michael Jordan* 1.12

Hakeem is the Best Mix of Defense and Offense The Game Has Ever Seen

[dunksby]

3ball shamelessly recruiting Laz, that LeBron effect :applause: :pimp:

[3ball]

Hakeem was top 5 all-time defense


But nowhere near top 5 all-time offense - this thread is about who is top 5 in both offense and defense among big men (centers and pf's), and non-big men.

Hakeem's highest ppg ranks 144th all-time - many pf's and centers are ahead of that - Wilt, Kareem, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Shaq, Barkley are all ahead, and Dirk could be argued without the stats.. Obviously, Bird played pf a lot, so he could be included - either way, Hakeem is easily out of the top 5 offensively among pf's and centers (big men).

Other than his inferior offensive stats, the biggest sign that Hakeem's offensive career wasn't anywhere near top 5 all-time for big men is that his teams were always middle to near-last offensively, and virtually never a top offensive team, even in his two "championship" years.. (Btw, compare that to MJ's teams, even with 3 PPG Rodman in 1996-1998 - MJ had the GOAT impact - GOAT offensively and top 5 among non-big men defensively).
.

[Round Mound]

But nowhere near top 5 all-time offense - this thread is about who is top 5 in both offense and defense among big men (centers and pf's), and non-big men.

Hakeem's highest ppg ranks 144th all-time - many pf's and centers are ahead of that - Wilt, Kareem, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Shaq, Barkley are all ahead, and Dirk could be argued without the stats.. Obviously, Bird played pf a lot, so he could be included - either way, Hakeem is easily out of the top 5 offensively among pf's and centers (big men).

Other than his inferior offensive stats, the biggest sign that Hakeem's offensive career wasn't anywhere near top 5 all-time for big men is that his teams were always middle to near-last offensively, and virtually never a top offensive team, even in his two "championship" years.

For Both Of His Championships He Was The Main Scorer and Defensive Anchor and Also In The 86 Finals (2nd Year Hakeem Already Dominating) :confusedshrug:

Im Talking About PRIME Hakeem 1985-1995 ages 22-32 BTW...When His PPG Avg Was Over 25 PPG on Over 50% FG.

Hakeem is The GOAT Stealer Among Centers and He Lead The League In BPG and RPG Too.

Even Broken Down Stats Suggest Hakeem Was Among The Best Defenders Ever and Scorers Ever: No Other Center Had More Moves (only McHale a PF), Fakes, The Agility, The Finess (Only Jabbar was Better as a Finess Scoring Center), The Foot Quickness and The Scoring Ability as PRIME Hakeem.

BTW PRIME Hakeem Beat Jordan More Than Jordan Beat Him.

Even Jordan Himself Said That He Was Thankfull That The Rockets Played in the West Not The East Because They Had No Answer For PRIME Hakeem.

You Are Overrating Jordan and Underrating Hakeem

[TripleA]

Hating on lebron is one thing but Hakeem. 3ball has hit a new low.

[TripleA]

their is more to offense than the amount of points your score.:hammerhead:

[TripleA]

Dwight's top 5 defensive player of modern era.:applause:

[j3lademaster]

Agreed...

But if you categorize players into either big man or non-big man - among big men, Wilt is the only player that ranks in top 5 on both offense and defense... and among non-bigs, MJ is the only player that ranks in the top 5 on both.



Don't shoot me.. I'm just the messenger - that's what DPOY Ron Artest said about MJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m57s
.if it's just among perimeter players, why not Kobe, Lebron, Jerry West? What is your top 5 offense and defense for perimeter players?

[3ball]

Dwight's top 5 defensive player of modern era.


this is true..

[3ball]

their is more to offense than the amount of points your score.:hammerhead:
Sure, and at least 5 big men had better individual stats AND commanded superior offenses than Hakeem, including: Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Barkley, Dirk, Bob Petit, and others.

Also, since Hakeem developed so late, guys like Ewing and Robinson were better offensive players for most of their careers and commanded far superior offenses too.

Again, you're right - it's not just individual scoring - Hakeem's TEAMS were horrible offensively as well
.

[3ball]

i

if it's just among perimeter players, why not Kobe, Lebron, Jerry West? What is your top 5 offense and defense for perimeter players?


Top 5 offensive Perimeter Players

MJ
Magic
Bird
Kobe
West
Oscar

Keep in mind that these players were all great shooters.. Also, their diverse and adjustable games allowed their team to use cutting edge, optimal STRATEGY and brand of basketball - their games didn't restrict their team to play a suboptimal style that is easily solved (lebron-ball).



Top 5 Perimeter Defenders:

MJ
Payton
Rodman
Pippen
Moncrief


In that order .. Only MJ is in both categories