Why dont Serbs take responsibility and apologize for the Srebrenica massacre?

[RagaZ]

Imagine if Merkel and Germans today denied Holocaust.

This is the difference. Western countries admit their mistakes. But it seems like the nationalism is too strong in some countries.

[warriorfan]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2685740/gimme-a-hell-yeah-o.gif

[Bosnian Sajo]

Don't understand how you can deny something like this when we are digging up bones every year of people who were burried in mass graves from Srebrenica. My friend's brother and father were found just last year, 19 years after the fact. Some of the Serbs even say that it was all staged and that we Muslims did it to ourselves just so NATO would bomb Serbia...you can't make this shit up, it's sickening.

[fiddy]

Don't understand how you can deny something like this when we are digging up bones every year of people who were burried in mass graves from Srebrenica. My friend's brother and father were found just last year, 19 years after the fact. Some of the Serbs even say that it was all staged and that we Muslims did it to ourselves just so NATO would bomb Serbia...you can't make this shit up, it's sickening.
For once you are correct.

[BlakFrankWhite]

Bombing Serbia and rooting out that bloodhound Milosevic was the best thing US has done in the past 50 years

[9erempiree]

Don't understand how you can deny something like this when we are digging up bones every year of people who were burried in mass graves from Srebrenica. My friend's brother and father were found just last year, 19 years after the fact. Some of the Serbs even say that it was all staged and that we Muslims did it to ourselves just so NATO would bomb Serbia...you can't make this shit up, it's sickening.

It always involve Muslims.:facepalm

The fact that they thought about must make it true no? Just like so many people get offended by my comments and call me a bigot. Those people that think Muslims must have caused it have a point no?

[Dresta]

Probably because it isn't nearly as black and white as the Holocaust (stupid comparison), as there were also atrocities committed by Bosnians and Croats, which no-one bothers to acknowledge either.

[9erempiree]

A bvnch of dumb ****s these people are. Massacres for what?

[BigNBAfan]

this religion of peace always has these horrific crimes attributed to it...

[fiddy]

this religion of peace always has these horrific crimes attributed to it...
Dont get me started on talibans, the last caliphate (ottomans) did lots of these

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batak_massacre

[BigNBAfan]

Long live Serbia. Long Live Republika Srpska.

R.I.P to all the REAL Muslim victims in Srebrenica in 1995. R.I.P too all the Serb Victims in and around Srebrenica from 1992-1995.

PS. It wasnt Genocide. It was a massacre no doubt, but no Genocide. Too all the TRUE Muslim victims i mourn your losses, just as I mourn all the Serb and Croat victims as well.

PPS. Ragaz the pommy fukc giving Serbs lrctures about Massacaring Muslims. Yall dorty English asses still in the Middle East murdering Muslims today haha

gods work?

[BlakFrankWhite]

Serbia were the real criminals..

Milosevic and Mladic shouldve been hanged in a public square

[Bosnian Sajo]

this religion of peace always has these horrific crimes attributed to it...

Except it was the Orthodox Christians committing the genocide against the muslims...good try though.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Probably because it isn't nearly as black and white as the Holocaust (stupid comparison), as there were also atrocities committed by Bosnians and Croats, which no-one bothers to acknowledge either.

Because the number of victims doesn't come close to the victims in Srebrenica alone, let alone what happened throughout all of Bosnia (Prijedor, Sarajevo, etc.).

[Bosnian Sajo]

PS. It wasnt Genocide. It was a massacre no doubt, but no Genocide. Too all the TRUE Muslim victims i mourn your losses, just as I mourn all the Serb and Croat victims as well.




No...no, it was definitely a genocide.

Genocide - the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

https://genocideinbosnia.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/bosnian-genocide-1992-srebrenica-massacre-of-8000-men-and-boys-30000-women-and-children-ethnically-cleansed-many-women-brutally-raped1.jpg?w=700

Next you're gonna say there were no concentration camps, either. I wonder where my cousin got that cool number tattoo from then.......

[BigNBAfan]

Except it was the Orthodox Christians committing the genocide against the muslims...good try though.

christians are just as bad, doesnt excuse your crimes in modern times... what 2 decades ago vs centuries?

[Bosnian Sajo]

I cbf getting into it now, but if people think that Srebrenica is like Aushwitz theyre kidding themselves. Srebrenica was the Muslims armys stronghold from the beggining of the war (pretty much their only one). Their military leader Naser Oric was Slobodan Milosevics head bodyguard (born and raised in Srebrenica) and came back to Srebrenica when the war started. His thugs completely murdered and ethnically cleansed the surrounding Serb towns before coming back to their safe haven of Srebrenica (one of the only places in Bosna they controlled). This is where Osama Bin Laden and other future Al Quaeda and ISIS leaders were stantioned.

They then completely abandoned their enclave in 1995 under orders from Alija Izetbegovic (president of Bosnia) and Bill Cinton and Richard Holbrooke. The UN Peacekeepers also completely abandoned the city. Why would they do this? They knew the Serbs were going to attack and completely fukc shit up. So why leave it? Why not fight? The ******* abandoned their posts and sacrificed their people just so America would have an excuse to attack the Serbs and end the war.

No doubt the Serbs commited massacres when they entered the town. Thats undeniable. But it wasnt Genocide. They only killed men of fighting age because Srebrenica was the head enclavr of the bosnian army (which they abandnoed under orders from the U.S)

Like i said i mourn all the victims of the war ; Serb, Croat and Muslim. But theres no way Serbs are gonna keepngrtting the blame for everything. 105 000 prople died in the war. 65 000 Muslims, and 35 000 Serbs.

Srebrenica keeps getting politisized by the West in order to destabalise the region and further humiliate the Serbs. All sides commited crimes. All sides are at fault. All sides need to work together to maintain a stable future for our people.

WTF!! Only men of fighting age?? GTFO, they slaughtered elderly people, kids, girls, boys, everyone. Raped countless number of women. 35k Serbs died??? :roll: 80% of the people who died during the war were Bosniaks, get your facts straight.

[knickballer]

Current Prime Minister of Serbia quoted back in 1995(few days after the Srebenica massacre)
[QUOTE]On July 20th, 1995, an angry young Aleksandar Vucic gave an inflammatory speech.

[fiddy]

Except it was the Orthodox Christians committing the genocide against the muslims...good try though.
Dont abuse the word genocide mr taliban

[9erempiree]

christians are just as bad, doesnt excuse your crimes in modern times... what 2 decades ago vs centuries?

Its called switch and bait which is notoriously used here on ISH. We say something bad about Islam they make it about Christians. The funny thing is we don't give a F about Christians either so why bring them up.

[Bosnian Sajo]

How can it be genocide if women and children are spared? So in ww1 when English and German men went to war against eachother it was Genocide? If thats Genocide than every war in hostory has been a Genocide. It was definitly a massacre. That cant be denied. It was savage. It was a horror or war. It wasnt Genocide however.

Do you guys see what Serbian propaganda really is? It makes people like this believe that the devistating crimes that happened during the war were all "lies".


No *****, women and children were not spared. Go check the spomeniks(memorials) if you don't believe me, look how many girl names you find and kids under the age of 16. Or did they just lie and engrave fake peoples names on the memorials? Who are you kidding, dude?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-N7T9kCm4hSg/Thf1hNJ0gNI/AAAAAAAAAG0/Fs5BAN4SGxQ/s640/Sarajevo+%2528Genocid+u+Bosni%2529+2.jpg

I bet that's just a doll on the street, and not a child, right?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lZY0Yrh4qsk/Thf1U32UQnI/AAAAAAAAAGw/M1oQJuvcGjg/s1600/Sarajevo+%2528Genocid+u+Bosni%2529+1.jpg

Is that not real either? I know countless people who have been to the concentration camps yo, all of us Bosnians here in the US are escapees from the war (shit ton from srebrenica here in Florida), frankly I don't give a damn what you believe, but the Serbs were ruthless during the war. Doesn't mean all Serbs are bad, of course not, but the ones who committed these atrocities are monsters.


One of my friends was 11 when he was in a camp in Srebrenica. He was sitting across from a woman who was holding a baby in her hands. The people who were controlling that camp only fed them once a day, so naturally when a baby is hungry it cries. One of the Serbs came up to her and told her to shut the baby up, or else he would. The baby of course kept on crying, the Serb took the baby out the mothers arms, and slammed it into a wall, instantly killing the baby.

Or is that also not true, it's probably made up, right?

[9erempiree]

WTF!! Only men of fighting age?? GTFO, they slaughtered elderly people, kids, girls, boys, everyone. Raped countless number of women. 35k Serbs died??? :roll: 80% of the people who died during the war were Bosniaks, get your facts straight.

That is your brother that you're yelling at.

Holy month bro.

:lol

[Bosnian Sajo]

Were talking about Srebrenica. Im not talking about the entire war. They clearly seperated men of fighting age from the remainder. This is fact.

As for the war. Muslims werent 80% of the victims. Thats bs propoganda. They were around 60-65 with the remainder being Serb and Croat. And stop acting like Muslims didnt murder and **** up Christians as well. U had Osama Bin Laden in the country for fukcs sake hahah

Dude, gtfo here. Men of fighting age, go to Srebrenica yourself and look at the Memorial. All 8372 names are there, check the DOB yourself.

Like how can you deny that?

[9erempiree]

I am enjoying this.

Going to make some food and read.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Its called switch and bait which is notoriously used here on ISH. We say something bad about Islam they make it about Christians. The funny thing is we don't give a F about Christians either so why bring them up.

Can you shut the **** up for once? Can you please stop being such a bigot? This ****ing thread is about Srebrenica massacre, where Muslims were slaughtered by Orthodox Serbs, what in the hell are you talking about?



I am enjoying this.

Going to make some food and read.

You're just such an ass, dude. Honestly, you're disgusting. I can truly say you're the only person on ish who I hate.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Current Prime Minister of Serbia quoted back in 1995(few days after the Srebenica massacre)



Now as the current PM of Serbia he tries to save face and attend the memorial and act like he actually gives a ****. Glad that rat looking mother****er got pelted with rocks

Can you believe that? And who the hell invited him?

[StephHamann]

That is your brother that you're yelling at.

Holy month bro.

:lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqw1FI1hfJA

[Dresta]

Because the number of victims doesn't come close to the victims in Srebrenica alone, let alone what happened throughout all of Bosnia (Prijedor, Sarajevo, etc.).
And in all likelihood that's because the opportunity wasn't available to them - there were Bosniak torture camps too.

I don't see how them committing a greater number of atrocities excuses the murder and torturing of others - the Bosniaks suffered the most because they had the weakest military and were the most vulnerable, not because they didn't commit atrocities of their own.

The Western media always has to have its good guys and bad guys, when in truth, there were no good guys, including the EU, which helped to destabilise the region in the first place (nor did Germany exert the influence it could have on Croatia). Once war is started you can't not expect these kinds of things, as they almost always happen in war-zones (still people justify the firebombing of Dresden, for example).

Perhaps the Slovenians were the only ones to come out of this without a black mark against them.

[Dresta]

Were talking about Srebrenica. Im not talking about the entire war. They clearly seperated men of fighting age from the remainder. This is fact.

As for the war. Muslims werent 80% of the victims. Thats bs propoganda. They were around 60-65 with the remainder being Serb and Croat. And stop acting like Muslims didnt murder and **** up Christians as well. U had Osama Bin Laden in the country for fukcs sake hahah
Don't forget the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, and Hezbollah.

[BlakFrankWhite]

Don't forget the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, and Hezbollah.

Also Hitler, Stalin and Mugabe :rolleyes:

[9erempiree]

Long live Serbia. Long Live Republika Srpska.

R.I.P to all the REAL Muslim victims in Srebrenica in 1995. R.I.P too all the Serb Victims in and around Srebrenica from 1992-1995.

PS. It wasnt Genocide. It was a massacre no doubt, but no Genocide. Too all the TRUE Muslim victims i mourn your losses, just as I mourn all the Serb and Croat victims as well.

PPS. Ragaz the pommy fukc giving Serbs lrctures about Massacaring Muslims. Yall dorty English asses still in the Middle East murdering Muslims today haha

The most insincere post in this thread.:facepalm

[BlakFrankWhite]

But serisouly doe Serbians are messed up people.

Hitler killed them, Soviets killed them, US killed them..

[StephHamann]

But serisouly doe Serbians are messed up people.

Hitler killed them, Soviets killed them, US killed them..

The Balkans is historically a destabilized region, all thanks to the horrific influence of 500 years of ottoman rule.

[Bosnian Sajo]

And in all likelihood that's because the opportunity wasn't available to them - there were Bosniak torture camps too.

I don't see how them committing a greater number of atrocities excuses the murder and torturing of others - the Bosniaks suffered the most because they had the weakest military and were the most vulnerable, not because they didn't commit atrocities of their own.

The Western media always has to have its good guys and bad guys, when in truth, there were no good guys, including the EU, which helped to destabilise the region in the first place (nor did Germany exert the influence it could have on Croatia). Once war is started you can't not expect these kinds of things, as they almost always happen in war-zones (still people justify the firebombing of Dresden, for example).

Perhaps the Slovenians were the only ones to come out of this without a black mark against them.

Omggggg I hate it when posters want to start an argument just for the hell of it...

So tell me mr.dresta, why is it that Bosnia had a weaker military than Serbia? We were all the same country just before the war began (Yugo), how is it possible that Serbia had such an advantage against us? Is it maybe because they took 90% of the military equipment from our former country?



To start off, your first sentence is so.....****ing....idiotic...oh my goodness. Why did the war start, dresta? Was it over oil? Was it over money? I'm not gonna give you the answer, I wanna see what you're gonna say. You are implying that we wanted the war...you do realize shit was unexpected, right? You do know that the Serbs went to all of the strongholds in each ****ing city in Bosnia while we were still Yugoslavia and emptied them so we had nothing once the war started, right? No one believed there was gonna be a war (in the Bosnian side at least, this shit was planned for a while by the Serbs).

[Bosnian Sajo]

Also Hitler, Stalin and Mugabe :rolleyes:

****ing Kim Jong Il apparently had a summer home there, too. :facepalm

[Bosnian Sajo]

But serisouly doe Serbians are messed up people.

Hitler killed them, Soviets killed them, US killed them..

But yet you'll still find that ISH posters like 9er and Dresta have no problem trying, for whatever reason, to excuse and protect the innocence of these warm loving people :rolleyes:

9er is a "patriot", so called true American, yet here he decides to side with the group who the US was completely against.

[fiddy]

But serisouly doe Serbians are messed up people.

Hitler killed them, Soviets killed them, US killed them..
The west hates the Balkans, whats new?

[Dresta]

Omggggg I hate it when posters want to start an argument just for the hell of it...

So tell me mr.dresta, why is it that Bosnia had a weaker military than Serbia? We were all the same country just before the war began (Yugo), how is it possible that Serbia had such an advantage against us? Is it maybe because they took 90% of the military equipment from our former country?

To start off, your first sentence is so.....****ing....idiotic...oh my goodness. Why did the war start, dresta? Was it over oil? Was it over money? I'm not gonna give you the answer, I wanna see what you're gonna say. You are implying that we wanted the war...you do realize shit was unexpected, right? You do know that the Serbs went to all of the strongholds in each ****ing city in Bosnia while we were still Yugoslavia and emptied them so we had nothing once the war started, right? No one believed there was gonna be a war (in the Bosnian side at least, this shit was planned for a while by the Serbs).
Why are you talking about Bosnia like it was some kind of unified country. What, are you stupid or something? Those Serbs were Bosnians too :oldlol:. I don't even see how your post contradicts anything i said - you effectively just admitted that your problem was that the Bosniaks were slow to the punch, and, as you are proving, woefully unaware of the dangers ushered in by a crumbling Republic with potential land-grabs at stake. You could see danger building in Yugoslavia from 1989, and if you couldn't, then you must be blind.

There are a multitude of reasons for the war, including the unification of a multi-ethnic republic that rested effectively on the personality cult of Tito, a long history of ethnic tension, two world wars in the past century, and socialism. Lots of reasons. The reality is that in Bosnia there were three diverse ethnic groups, with opposed political and national agendas, who did not envision a multi-ethnic state, ruled by committee. In those conditions you usually get civil war, and that's what you had. I know you need someone to blame and demonise, as that makes it all much easier for you to deal with, but that is the type of foolishness that only leads to a repeat of history when the region is next destabilised (the Kosovars are really nice to Serbs, i hear).

What is your reason? Evil Serbs woz being evil? The Serbs and Croats wanting more land wasn't what caused the war, that was only the inevitable consequence of the 100 years preceding it.


Also Hitler, Stalin and Mugabe :rolleyes:
Urm, google is your friend, dumbass:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C5CHFA_enGB503GB504&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=hezbollah+in+bosnian+war&start=0

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C5CHFA_enGB503GB504&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=iran%20role%20in%20bosnian%20war

Now that you've proven you haven't got a ****ing clue what you're talking about, why don't you move on somewhere else.

[9erempiree]

But yet you'll still find that ISH posters like 9er and Dresta have no problem trying, for whatever reason, to excuse and protect the innocence of these warm loving people :rolleyes:

9er is a "patriot", so called true American, yet here he decides to side with the group who the US was completely against.

You are deluded and perhaps your "hatred" for me is clouding your judgement because please explain and actually quote me where I side with said group.

[knickballer]

How can anyone ask for reconciliation between the Yugoslav people when this is what is to be expected. I hate Vucic, but I give him props for going to Srebrenica to give his commemorations to the victims of the massacre. And what happens to him? He gets assaulted at a grave site. At a memorial for the dead. How is that normal? And during Ramadan as well? With hundreds of people shouting "Allahu Ekbar?"

The fact that the West attempted to try and pass a motion of Genocide by claiming it will "heal" and "unite" the people shows how clearly sinister their motives are. The fact they talked Vucic into even going to the memorial is laughable. Everyone knew it was going to happen. He mite be Americas toy right now, but the Muslims still remember his racist hate speeches from before. They were always going to attack him.

This is just another attempt to further divide our people. And sadly the morons from all sides keep fallling for it every time. LOL at the hypocricy of Western Leaders from America, England, France coming to commemorate Muslims deaths. Why doesnt Clinton go to Gaza or the West Bank and commemorate the dead Palestinians?

He got pelted because 20 years ago he said one dead serb equals 100 dead muslims after Srebenica and was clearly in support of the atrocities that occured. Also, this is after Russia just vetoed the UN resolution to recognize it as a genocide when the President of Serbia doesn't view it as a genocide and more as the West trying to get at Serbia once again. Then this n1gga Vucic strolls up and tries to do some ass kissing to look good for the press.

Your gimmick is very tiresome too. You constantly call Balkan muslims savages, turks, animals but yet you're the first one to defend the muslims in the middle east so you don't look like a racist.

[Dresta]

But yet you'll still find that ISH posters like 9er and Dresta have no problem trying, for whatever reason, to excuse and protect the innocence of these warm loving people :rolleyes:

9er is a "patriot", so called true American, yet here he decides to side with the group who the US was completely against.
That's a complete straw man. No one here is calling the Serbs 'innocent' in all this, or 'warm loving' (whatever that means :roll:), nor am i 'excusing' anything. It seems to be you who are excusing the crimes committed by your own side to justify the complete demonisation of your enemy (a demonisation that resulted in the soon-to-be disastrous treatment of Kosovo). I am neither Serb nor Bosnian - i have no horse in this race other than abiding by the truth the best i can; you, on the other hand, seem to have no concern for the truth, and only want to paint Serbs as being evil (you are being highly emotional and your perceptions are clearly distorted by your proximity to the events themselves).

[9erempiree]

I am enjoying this thread for the contradictions and the hypocrites on here. It is funny how one thread can destroy their entire message board gimmick. Call it funny, sad or both but I am a delighted person today.

[9erempiree]

I dont paint all Muslims with the same brush. Theres Balkan Muslims. Middle Eastern Muslims. Maghreb Muslimss, South East Asian Muslims, Pakis, Afghans, Shias, Sunnies, Druze etc.

I aint got beef with Islam. I got beef with certain groups who happen to be Muslim, just like I got beef with certain Christian nations.

So its pretty much safe to say that I was correct when I say light skin Muslims are less violent than their counterpart Middle Eastern Asian (Arab) brothers?

[BigNBAfan]

Maybe. But even the dark skin Arab aint got sh!t on Your light skin Christian ass.

lol at these muslames comparing shit that happened 4-6 human generations ago to something in our generation

[blablabla]

[QUOTE=Maksimilian]I cbf getting into it now, but if people think that Srebrenica is like Aushwitz theyre kidding themselves. Srebrenica was the Muslims armys stronghold from the beggining of the war (pretty much their only one). Their military leader Naser Oric was Slobodan Milosevics head bodyguard (born and raised in Srebrenica) and came back to Srebrenica when the war started. His thugs completely murdered and ethnically cleansed the surrounding Serb towns before coming back to their safe haven of Srebrenica (one of the only places in Bosna they controlled).

[kNicKz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_AUOxcFdyo

[Dresta]

Also of note, and im not sure if you were aware of this, the Serbs may have had a smaller population than the Muslims in Bosnia, but they have always (even before the war in 1992) controlled most of the land. This is because Muslims for the most part were an Urban population, while Serbs and Croats were predominantly rural. This goes back to the Ottoman times when only Muslims and Jews were allowed to live in the city centers, and Christians (In "Bosnias" case Serbs and Croats) were only allowed to live in the outskirts of the major cities, or in villages.

This is a map of the demographics of Bosnia before the war in 1992. The Serbs are highlighted in blue. Muslims in Green.


Ill get to my point. The Western Media attempts to portray the Serbs in Bosnia as a "invaders" and "foreigners". This is BS. 90% of fighters on the Bosnian Serb side were Serbs from Bosnia protecting their own people. Of cors they had some recruits from Serbia proper/Greece/Russia etc, but the Muslims also had Persians, Turks, Arabs, Mujahedeen etc. They also try and claim that Serbs "quickly took control" of 70% of Bosnian-territory thanks to their military advantages. This is a blatant lie. As ive already mentioned, and sourced, Serbs (and Croats) already had control of most of the land thanks to being restricted to rural areas thanks to Ottoman era laws.

The most famous part of the Bosnian War was the Seige of Sarajevo. The West likes to play it off as Serbs invaded Bosnia and quickly took to bombing the sh!te out of the "multi-cultural" capital city from the mountains. Again this is BS. Sarajevo was definitely attacked, and it was definitely under siege. But it was attacked by Bosnian-Serb villagers who had lived in the surrounding mountain areas of Sarajevo for hundreds of years thanks to Ottoman law. It was actually thanks to the Ottomans that the Serbs from the mountain areas found it so easy to siege the city.

The same think was true of Srebrenica. Srebrenica was a multi-ethnic town (Not big enough to be a city) that Naser Oric (Slobodan Milosevic's former head body guard and Commander of the Bosnian-Muslim Army) picked as the headquarters for the Muslim military. Just as the Serbs ethnically cleansed Muslims from the cities they conquered, Oric ethnically cleansed Srebrenica and its surrounding villages of Serbs and other minorities. In facty from 1992-1995 he killed thousands of Serbs in the areas around Srebrenica. But the West never mentions it. Why doesnt the media ask why Srebrenica was so important and valuable to the Serbs? Why did the commit the crimes they did in the city? Im not excusing what happened in the Srebrenica massacre, im just wanting a fair go for ALL the victims.

The other part of contention about the Massacre is why did Naser Oric and the Bosnian-Muslim army abandon it to the Serbs after defending it so well for three years? It was their number one stronghold in the country. Who gave him the orders to retreat? I dont believe Naser Oric would abandon his people unless he got the orders from a greater power. I think its obvious that the Americans told Alija Izetbegovic (The Muslim president of Bosnia) that Srebrenica falling would be the price hed have to pay for them having an excuse to enter the war on his side against the Serbs. Why else would Naser Oric leave with the entire military? Who told the Dutch Peacekeepers (Who are still unfairly blamed) to let the Serbs in? The Serbs didnt "overun" Srebrenica, they were pretty much given a welcoming parade.
Nah, i didn't know the demographics - cheers for that. Tis interesting: something about the Western narrative about Bosnia clearly doesn't add up, but there's so much distortion and minimisation from all parties that it is very difficult to know exactly what happened; the only thing that is clear, to me at least, is that all sides partook in atrocities, as is usually the case in war.

Calling it genocide is clearly false, for if you are committing genocide you don't ship off the women and children, as was well documented, but kill them also. What the Ukrainians did to the Poles in ww2 was far worse than this, and yet no-one calls that a genocide. Ethnic cleansing would be the more accurate term.

But so many people who have zero interest in the region, know nothing of its history, and who have shown themselves willing to be manipulated through sentimentality by the Western media time and time again, show no hesitation in condemning an entire nation for the crimes of war, and excusing those committed by others as being innocent victims. They simply cannot get the good vs. evil narrative out of their heads, it seems, and thus are easily manipulated, because their responses are so predictable. Fact is, Bosnia and Kosovo have been made into feel-good stories regarding Western interventionism, and have set precedents in that regard (disastrous precedents, that have justified terrible carnage and misery). It is too useful to Western politicians for the truth to ever be told about Bosnia, and the media has proven its willingness to play lackey by failing even to report those who gave evidence pertaining to Bin Laden's presence in Bosnia at Milosovic's trial, and his relationship to Izetbegovic.

We also know the CIA had a close relationship with Islamic fundamentalists during this period, and that they aided them in Bosnia (and to get to Bosnia), as they did in Chechnya and Azerbaijan. Does anyone seriously think that these people were fighting in Bosnia and not committing atrocities against Serbs? It contradicts all we know about how they operate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx-REROXvtg

Not to mention Izetbegovic himself was an Islamic fanatic, which his book more or less proves:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Declaration


Passages from the declaration were frequently quoted by Izetbegović's opponents during the 1990s, who considered it to be an open statement of Islamic fundamentalism.[8] The opinion is shared by some Western authors such as John Schindler.[9] Indeed, in his book, Izetbegović praised Pakistan as a model for Bosnian society and declared that "there can be no peace or co-existence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic societies and political institutions".[10]

[QUOTE]"The upbringing of the nation, and especially the mass media

[RidonKs]

What the Ukrainians did to the Poles in ww2 was far worse than this, and yet no-one calls that a genocide. Ethnic cleansing would be the more accurate term.
do elaborate sir. i believe the two of you have some attention what having strewn together so many eloquent and substantiated considerations in this thread. i am unaware of a ukrainian atrocity against the poles in ww2 and i suspect the majority of the folks reading this thread are equally unfamiliar. given recent events, it seems quite relevant.

please do not consider this a dogmatic request.

[RidonKs]

It was Izetbegovic and Tudjman who were locked up by Titos Yugoslav regime for nationalism and promoting ethnic hatred.
i know you have been servicing my subsequent request well beyond what might emerge from this wonderfully informative thread, but i would ask you to further substantiate your claim that tito imprisoned his political adversaries, if only to spread the word that media heroes tend to be improperly interpreted depending on the interests of the dominant parties in question.

[Dresta]

do elaborate sir. i believe the two of you have some attention what having strewn together so many eloquent and substantiated considerations in this thread. i am unaware of a ukrainian atrocity against the poles in ww2 and i suspect the majority of the folks reading this thread are equally unfamiliar. given recent events, it seems quite relevant.

please do not consider this a dogmatic request.
It is very relevant actually, because the people the Euromaidan movement have been glorifying and holding up on banners of people like Stepan Bandera, who played a big role in instigating the massacre/genocide/ethnic cleansing (while in Odessa they burned effigies of him - in attaching themselves to such a legacy, the West of Ukraine is forcing a divide).

And it was a really ugly one to boot: torture, crucifixtions, women and children cut into pieces, babies bayonetted - it was an extirpation, plain and simple, and a sadistic one too. Now they're just called 'the massacres of Volhynia and Eastern Galicia' or some shit. This will give you an idea of how grotesque it was:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OJyKyinpks

And this is a good article on the relationship between ww2 Ukrainian fascism and the recent West Ukrainian uprising:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/feb/24/a-fascist-hero-in-democratic-kiev/

[QUOTE]Bandera was still in the German camp at Sachsenhausen, and without influence, when his group took command of a partisan army in early 1943. As the tide turned against the Germans at the Battle of Stalingrad, Ukrainians who had served the Germans as auxiliary policemen left the German service and went into the forest. Among their duties as policemen had been the mass killing of west Ukrainian Jews. These Ukrainians, some of them members of the OUN-B, formed the core of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (or UPA), which declared itself against both the existing German occupation and the coming Soviet one. Two leaders of Bandera