*The Truth About Chris Paul*

[branslowski]

I understand how great a player he is statistically, I also find myself mesmerized by his skillful artfully abilities on the court when he's all the way on, but lets face the truth about Chris Paul....HE'S NOT A WINNER!! I can see it in his eyes, he doesn't have the ability to lead a team to a title...He may show that "fire" in burst but on an overall consistent stand point he doesn't bring his A game and the Will to win A game with him.

Now before you start to make illogical opinions like:


Lost to the Rockets on an inferior team without HCA and with him missing the 1st 2 games.

If that series went 7, how does he lose on a better team with HCA?

Let me tell you, he plays with a top 3 PF in Blake Griffin, yes Blake F*CKING Griffin who's a versatile big man who in the playoffs averaged 25ppg 12reb 6ast blk on 50%fg, (MONSTER NUMBERS) and a Top 3 Center in Deandre Jordan, yes Dre Day Jordan the King of rebounding and blocking shots avereging 11ppg 15reb 2blks on 71%fg only to up his scoring in the playoffs with 13ppg 13reb 2.4blks and 71%fg.....So how does he not have a team?? I didn't even mention having a All-Time great Coach in Doc, playing with one of the greatest 6th men in the game in Crawford, and having a 3pt shooter in Reddick and a defensive perimeter player who can also hit a 3 in Matt Barnes....His team has everything you needed to win a title: A defensive big man in the middle for rebounding blocking shots, a All-Star type player in who can get you 20 and 10 along with assist, a role player who can shoot the 3, a role player who can also shoot the 3 aswell as defend his position, and a 6th man who can warm up and score anytime...Give stars like Kobe, Curry, Durant and WestBrook that kind of team and you'd get titles instantly. Not with CP3 though because he's just not a winner.

It's a shame really, because tell me how many times you said to yourself "Man, if CP3 just gets agressive with his scoring here, there's no way he can be stopped"?? I've said it alot...Dude can dribble to any spot on the court he wants. With any pick he always get to within 6 to 8ft from the rim where he has an unstoppable touch jumper. I mean he's capable of putting up 42pt 10ast 4stl games in the playoffs non stop but he just flops off....I remember when he was in New Orleans and he had some memorable games vs Spurs i the playoffs, yet he then shuts himself down by not being agressive scoring in games when they need it because once again....HE's NOT A WINNER

I just see it in players eyes, yeah they can have great games with stats but at the end of the day it's that fight, even when your not scoring or assistin or watever you still do other things to win a game like rebound, defense, making your teammates believe they can't be stopped on the court, exc...Paul just doesn't have any of those qualities...So if you're a CP3 fan and your're waiting for a ring then you should keep waiting, because as long as he's the LEADER of a team he wont ever win one.

#Overrated

[Young X]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Read the post again. I said the Clippers were worse than the WARRIORS, not the ROCKETS. We were comparing how CP3 would do on the Warriors vs how Curry would do on the Clippers.

[Foster5k]

.His team have everything you needed to win a title
Stopped reading after this.

Clippers pretty much had zero depth. When you're relying on guys like Austin Rivers and Big Baby in the playoffs, you're in trouble. Doc Rivers is somewhat to blame. He's apparently the coach/GM. Why do you think they went after Stephenson, etc. They lack depth tremendously and it showed in the playoffs.

[Legends66NBA7]

His NBA career isn't over yet.

[retaxis]

A championship team has multiple perimeter, post and high low threats. Clippers only had one high low threat and one perimeter go to threat in cp3. Warriors otoh has duo backcourt threats, multiple Swiss army knives in dre and Barnes (better depth) and had high low as well as post threat in bogut, ezeli and green so you knew they were serious. Clippers had high post griffin, hack Dj and cp3 wing threat (great player but not a great wing perimeter player like durant, harden, bron etc

[branslowski]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Read the post again. I said the Clippers were worse than the WARRIORS, not the ROCKETS. We were comparing how CP3 would do on the Warriors vs how Curry would do on the Clippers.

Even if you meant THAT:

Lets say CP3 and Curry cancel themselves out:

Griffin>>>Thompson
Jordan>>>Green
Crawford=Iggy
Matt Barnes=Harrison Barnes
Reddick>Livingston
Austin Rivers>Barbosa

Doc Rivers>>>Steve Kerr

Imagine Curry getting doubled with the Clippers??? Blake getting the ball near the top of the ft line and running it into the paint verses Green?? Or Matt Barnes getting WIDE THEE F*CK OPEN NO ONE WITHIN 8ft 3s vs Iggy Non shootin ass?? No more slow ass Andrew Bogut getting athletically sh!tted on by a 6ft8 player and a Russian, instead Jordan who can block shots and out rebound a team???

I mean seriously, If Curry was on the Clippers, they'd been the ones hoisting the title with a 4-0 sweep of the Cavs.

[Fudge]

What a meltdown.

[DMAVS41]

Even if you meant THAT:

Lets say CP3 and Curry cancel themselves out:

Griffin>>>Thompson
Jordan>>>Green
Crawford=Iggy
Matt Barnes=Harrison Barnes
Reddick>Livingston
Austin Rivers>Barbosa

Doc Rivers>>>Steve Kerr

Imagine Curry getting doubled with the Clippers??? Blake getting the ball near the top of the ft line and running it into the paint verses Green?? Or Matt Barnes getting WIDE THEE F*CK OPEN NO ONE WITHIN 8ft 3s vs Iggy Non shootin ass?? No more slow ass Andrew Bogut getting athletically sh!tted on by a 6ft8 player and a Russian, instead Jordan who can block shots and out rebound a team???

I mean seriously, If Curry was on the Clippers, they'd been the ones hoisting the title with a 4-0 sweep of the Cavs.


I actually tend to think CP3 is a tad over-rated by most...especially here...

But...

In what ****ing world is Jamal Crawford as valuable as Iggy? You lose all basketball credibility stating this.

[Foster5k]

I actually tend to think CP3 is a tad over-rated by most...especially here...

But...

In what ****ing world is Jamal Crawford as valuable as Iggy? You lose all basketball credibility stating this.
:oldlol:

Exactly what I was thinking. This guy is an idiot.

/thread

[Darius]

I fail to see the purpose of these endlessly rehashed posts.

CP3 is a very good player. Anyone can see that.

If he wins a title, he is a "winner". If he doesn't, he's "not a winner".

Why do you PTI-motherfvckers need to keep talking about this?

[Young X]

Even if you meant THAT:

Lets say CP3 and Curry cancel themselves out:

Griffin>>>Thompson
Jordan>>>Green
Crawford=Iggy
Matt Barnes=Harrison Barnes
Reddick>Livingston
Austin Rivers>Barbosa

Doc Rivers>>>Steve Kerr

Imagine Curry getting doubled with the Clippers??? Blake getting the ball near the top of the ft line and running it into the paint verses Green?? Or Matt Barnes getting WIDE THEE F*CK OPEN NO ONE WITHIN 8ft 3s vs Iggy Non shootin ass?? No more slow ass Andrew Bogut getting athletically sh!tted on by a 6ft8 player and a Russian, instead Jordan who can block shots and out rebound a team???

I mean seriously, If Curry was on the Clippers, they'd been the ones hoisting the title with a 4-0 sweep of the Cavs.You're completely ignoring team defense. GS was the #1 defense and the Clippers were #15.

Also the Warriors had a good bench while the Clippers had the worst bench in the league. They actually played better offensively with Curry on the bench in the playoffs than on the floor.

No logical, non-biased fan thinks the Clippers were better than the Warriors last season. GS had multiple defenders and were extremely deep while the Clippers had 2 good defenders and 4 above average players overall.

[ArbitraryWater]

"HES NOT A WINNER" what a deep analogy :bowdown:

If Im not mistaken, he was like the only guy who played well in that game 7? Then the refs stopped their late comeback on a Harden bailout, ON CP3 himself?

OP mega meltdown

[SouBeachTalents]

Skip Bayless couldn't have said it better himself. You can frequently tell by looking in a players eyes who a winner is

[Fallen Angel]

Off Topic:

I'm predicting when Chris Paul's contract with the Los Angeles Clippers expires that he joins the New York Knicks with Carmelo Anthony as the two of them are butt buddies and will be on their last run for a championship.

Don't take this as fact, but I think Carmelo was mad that the Knicks drafted Porzingis and traded Tim Hardaway Jr. for Jerian Grant. He was mad at the KP selection because he wanted to play PF along with Chris Paul and figured the best player to be beside him is a lockdown defender (like Justice Winslow) or a rim protector (like Willie Cauley-Stein). He was mad at trading THJ for Grant because you're giving away a valuable shooter and athlete for a guy that plays the same position as Chris Paul.

[JZ600]

Crawford = iggy?

Kill yourself op

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Blake will probably be a better player than him this season, but I don't think it means CP wouldn't be the leader. Nor do I think it counts the Clippers out of the race completely.

I could definitely see CP/Blake become a Malone/Stockton tandem with great longevity and a number of chances to win titles. There isn't an MJ in the league so f*ck, why not? :oldlol:

[branslowski]

Stopped reading after this.

Clippers pretty much had zero depth. When you're relying on guys like Austin Rivers and Big Baby in the playoffs, you're in trouble. Doc Rivers is somewhat to blame. He's apparently the coach/GM. Why do you think they went after Stephenson, etc. They lack depth tremendously and it showed in the playoffs.

Zero Depth?? Look at the Lakers in 10' playoffs the year they won the title, this was our depth off the bench: Lamar Odom 8ppg, Shannon Brown 4ppg,.:oldlol:

Vs Clippers: Crawford 12ppg, Rivers 8ppg had some outstanding games in the Houston Series, his ppg were higher for than round because he got to play.

This is truth, no more excuses for CP3...Today is the day he and his fans face the truth, he's not a winner.

[dunksby]

Iggy :applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And please stop with the excuses. I hate when CP fanboys claim he didn't have enough help. The Clippers beat the f*cking Spurs who I said would have a great shot in doing so (others? not so much)... And guess who showed up in that game 7? Chris Paul.

They had more than enough help vs. Houston, and their best players choked a closeout game after being up double-digits. It's really that simple.

[No_Look604]

Reddick, Crawford and Barnes all sh!t the bed, didn't they?

I didn't watch the series other than highlights but please someone post their 3pt field goal percentages for the series.

From what I remember they were worse than bad and consistently missing wide open 3's.

[branslowski]

I actually tend to think CP3 is a tad over-rated by most...especially here...

But...

In what ****ing world is Jamal Crawford as valuable as Iggy? You lose all basketball credibility stating this.

Iggy was only valuable starting because he got to be WIDE OPEN because of ?Curry...And coming off the bench?:oldlol:

Last season Crawford vs Iggy Numbers:

Iggy- 8ppg 3st 3reb 1stl PER 12.3

Crawford- 18ppg 2ast 2reb stl PER 16.6

Crawford also finished 3rd in 6th man of the year award votes last season also...He was better than Iggy ALL YEAR....Now Iggy is getting overrated because he got Wide open shots all series with no one within 8ft of him..:coleman:

[No_Look604]

Give Chris Paul prime D.Wade, Chris Bosh, Jesus Shuttlesworth etc etc

and you have a two-time champion!

But you could say that for a handful of stars in the league today.

:coleman:

[branslowski]

"HES NOT A WINNER" what a deep analogy :bowdown:

If Im not mistaken, he was like the only guy who played well in that game 7? Then the refs stopped their late comeback on a Harden bailout, ON CP3 himself?

OP mega meltdown

Meltdown???:biggums:

Anyway he played good in game 7??? What about being a leader for your team and winning with a 3-1 series lead while you have a top 3 PF and a top 3 Center?? I could see if CP3 was playing with a sh!tty cast and lost a 3-1 lead, but dude has a dope team and still loses, pathetic.

[branslowski]

Give Chris Paul prime D.Wade, Chris Bosh, Jesus Shuttlesworth etc etc

and you have a two-time champion!

But you could say that for a handful of stars in the league today.

:coleman:

No the hell you wont:biggums:

He already has Prime Griffin with 25ppg 12reb 6ast in the playoffs which easily sh!ts on any production Wade had in the playoffs following LeBron running to his team...Also give me Prime Deandre over Bosh anyday, not for offense but for defense. Sh!t Dre Day can score aswell.

But I'd give you that if, Wade were to control the ball and CP3 practiced shooting 3s and became a automatic spot up shooter and still controlled the game defensively with steals...then yea, I see a title.

[K Xerxes]

Zero Depth?? Look at the Lakers in 10' playoffs the year they won the title, this was our depth off the bench: Lamar Odom 8ppg, Shannon Brown 4ppg,.:oldlol:

Vs Clippers: Crawford 12ppg, Rivers 8ppg had some outstanding games in the Houston Series, his ppg were higher for than round because he got to play.

This is truth, no more excuses for CP3...Today is the day he and his fans face the truth, he's not a winner.

Well, obviously CP3 isn't Kobe.

[RidonKs]

Even if you meant THAT:

Lets say CP3 and Curry cancel themselves out:

Griffin>>>Thompson
Jordan>>>Green
Crawford=Iggy
Matt Barnes=Harrison Barnes
Reddick>Livingston
Austin Rivers>Barbosa

Doc Rivers>>>Steve Kerr

Imagine Curry getting doubled with the Clippers??? Blake getting the ball near the top of the ft line and running it into the paint verses Green?? Or Matt Barnes getting WIDE THEE F*CK OPEN NO ONE WITHIN 8ft 3s vs Iggy Non shootin ass?? No more slow ass Andrew Bogut getting athletically sh!tted on by a 6ft8 player and a Russian, instead Jordan who can block shots and out rebound a team???

I mean seriously, If Curry was on the Clippers, they'd been the ones hoisting the title with a 4-0 sweep of the Cavs.
:wtf:

worst post i have ever read on ish

[K Xerxes]

Iggy was only valuable starting because he got to be WIDE OPEN because of ?Curry...And coming off the bench?:oldlol:

Last season Crawford vs Iggy Numbers:

Iggy- 8ppg 3st 3reb 1stl PER 12.3

Crawford- 18ppg 2ast 2reb stl PER 16.6

Crawford also finished 3rd in 6th man of the year award votes last season also...He was better than Iggy ALL YEAR....Now Iggy is getting overrated because he got Wide open shots all series with no one within 8ft of him..:coleman:

Box score watching... great argument. Iggy has been a better player for a long time, it's just that his role on the Warriors was different. His ability didn't drop off a cliff. It's pretty clear the defensive disparity between them outweights any offensive ones. Iggy was, at worst, the second best Warriors player in the finals, limiting LeBron to like 30% shooting. Crawford is a chucker that has never shot above 40% in ANY playoffs appearance. You can't be serious

[Spurs m8]

defs a loser in the end...

[branslowski]

:wtf:

worst post i have ever read on ish

Presidential Debate:

Obama-'I promise to get jobs for the American people, I want health care to be more accessible for those whom lacks the resources"

Opponent-" Worst speech I ever heard"

Judge-"Why is that? Can you refute it?"

Opponent-"Because its just the worst and NO, I cant"


Night Night/

[Heatles201]

I actually tend to think CP3 is a tad over-rated by most...especially here...

But...

In what ****ing world is Jamal Crawford as valuable as Iggy? You lose all basketball credibility stating this.

Two worlds..

1. NBA 2K ( actually not really since iggy dunks been always a weapon in 2k)
2. A person that does not value defense that much ( In this case OP) which is dumb imo

[branslowski]

Box score watching... great argument. Iggy has been a better player for a long time, it's just that his role on the Warriors was different. His ability didn't drop off a cliff. It's pretty clear the defensive disparity between them outweights any offensive ones. Iggy was, at worst, the second best Warriors player in the finals, limiting LeBron to like 30% shooting. Crawford is a chucker that has never shot above 40% in ANY playoffs appearance. You can't be serious

Nah, no boxscore watching, Crawford is the more feared player and last season was clearly the better player when I watched all the Nationally televised games...The stats I posted just further backs my statement...

[WorldWarriors]

Whew boy!:oldlol:

[K Xerxes]

Nah, no boxscore watching, Crawford is the more feared player and last season was clearly the better player when I watched all the Nationally televised games...The stats I posted just further backs my statement...

One got bounced out in the second round putting up 13ppg on 34%. The other won FMVP, playing far better defense. Maybe you should have paid attention in those nationally televised games.

[Young X]

Nah, no boxscore watching, Crawford is the more feared player and last season was clearly the better player when I watched all the Nationally televised games...The stats I posted just further backs my statement...Crawford averaged under 13 PPG and shot 36% (44.7 TS%) in the playoffs and plays horrible defense.

He shoots under 50 TS% in the playoffs for his career.

He's a negative on both ends of the court.

If you seriously think he's better than Iggy then you're either extremely biased or an idiot. Or both.

[Wade's Rings]

No the hell you wont:biggums:

He already has Prime Griffin with 25ppg 12reb 6ast in the playoffs which easily sh!ts on any production Wade had in the playoffs following LeBron running to his team...Also give me Prime Deandre over Bosh anyday, not for offense but for defense. Sh!t Dre Day can score aswell.

But I'd give you that if, Wade were to control the ball and CP3 practiced shooting 3s and became a automatic spot up shooter and still controlled the game defensively with steals...then yea, I see a title.

So now 2015 Blake > 2011 & 2012 Wade :oldlol:

I don't have the stats but i remember in the 4th quarter of the Playoffs Blake shot sub 40% with about 3 turnovers a game.

Also his numbers look nice but his impact wasn't there. Blake dropped 27/11/6 in Game 7 yet his defense was complete shit and you forgot he was even in the game at times.

[DMAVS41]

And please stop with the excuses. I hate when CP fanboys claim he didn't have enough help. The Clippers beat the f*cking Spurs who I said would have a great shot in doing so (others? not so much)... And guess who showed up in that game 7? Chris Paul.

They had more than enough help vs. Houston, and their best players choked a closeout game after being up double-digits. It's really that simple.

Truth.com

[branslowski]

One got bounced out in the second round putting up 13ppg on 34%. The other won FMVP, playing far better defense. Maybe you should have paid attention in those nationally televised games.

I did pay attention...And with attention paid I said to myself to myself I said "Gee wilikers, If Crawford got open 3's with no one within 8ft of him oh the possibilities"...When Iggy isn't Wide open like he was vs the Cavs his numbers are 8ppg 3ast 3reb 12 PER...That's the true player he is, while Crawford is a 16ppg 2reb 2ast 16 PER type player, like he truly is.

Night Night/

[DMAVS41]

Iggy was only valuable starting because he got to be WIDE OPEN because of ?Curry...And coming off the bench?:oldlol:

Last season Crawford vs Iggy Numbers:

Iggy- 8ppg 3st 3reb 1stl PER 12.3

Crawford- 18ppg 2ast 2reb stl PER 16.6

Crawford also finished 3rd in 6th man of the year award votes last season also...He was better than Iggy ALL YEAR....Now Iggy is getting overrated because he got Wide open shots all series with no one within 8ft of him..:coleman:


Just no.

I know you don't actually believe this so I'm not going to debate it with you.

There is a reason why Jamal always has a negative RAPM and Iggy is always strongly in the positive.

Jamal is mostly flash and little substance. That isn't to say he's worthless on the Clippers or anything, but he's not in the class of player you are putting him.

And you know this because I know you are smart enough to see that. You are just going hard on CP3 right now...and I don't mind that.

Kind of agree with you by the way overall.

[FreezingTsmoove]

If CP3 didnt injure his wrist in the closeout game 5 we are talking about Bran on the other end of the most lopsided 4 game sweep in nba history

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

lol at the bitch who negged me anonymously. I'm a Clippers fan you god damn ****** :oldlol:

[branslowski]

So now 2015 Blake > 2011 & 2012 Wade :oldlol:

I don't have the stats but i remember in the 4th quarter of the Playoffs Blake shot sub 40% with about 3 turnovers a game.

Also his numbers look nice but his impact wasn't there. Blake dropped 27/11/6 in Game 7 yet his defense was complete shit and you forgot he was even in the game at times.

Yes aside from the numbers that are completely in Griffin's favor Wade sis play great aswell...But to act as if there's some epic gap in the favor of Wade's production vs Blakes in those time frames is completely retarded.

[branslowski]

Just no.

I know you don't actually believe this so I'm not going to debate it with you.

I do belive it because it's true..:confusedshrug:

I'd even debate it without the FACTS I have above that clearly favors Crawford:confusedshrug:

[Wade's Rings]

Yes aside from the numbers that are completely in Griffin's favor Wade sis play great aswell...But to act as if there's some epic gap in the favor of Wade's production vs Blakes in those time frames is completely retarded.

The difference was 4th Quarter play and impact. Like I stated above...Blake on Paper looked like he had an amazing Game 7 but he had no impact on the game.

[DMAVS41]

I do belive it because it's true..:confusedshrug:

I'd even debate it without the FACTS I have above that clearly favors Crawford:confusedshrug:

Except the facts don't favor him at all.

Again, there is a reason why Iggy plays a real role on an Olympic team and nobody even thinks to ask Jamal Crawford.

Just stop it.

[branslowski]

Actually, you right Dmavs why waste time on something as small as this? Also what I watch and the facts I have behind it leaves me to just not even post anything about the subject after this:

Last season Crawford vs Iggy Numbers:

Iggy- 8ppg 3st 3reb 1stl PER 12.3

Crawford- 18ppg 2ast 2reb stl PER 16.6

Crawford also finished 3rd in 6th man of the year award votes last season also...He was better than Iggy ALL YEAR....Now Iggy is getting overrated because he got Wide open shots all series with no one within 8ft of him

Whats the point? Iggy got overrated after the finals...He won Finals MVP, How dare I say anyone is better than him??....

[Young X]

Actually, you right Dmavs why waste time on something as small as this? Also what I watch and the facts I have behind it leaves me to just not even post anything about the subject after this:

Last season Crawford vs Iggy Numbers:

Iggy- 8ppg 3st 3reb 1stl PER 12.3

Crawford- 18ppg 2ast 2reb stl PER 16.6

Crawford also finished 3rd in 6th man of the year award votes last season also...He was better than Iggy ALL YEAR....Now Iggy is getting overrated because he got Wide open shots all series with no one within 8ft of him

Whats the point? Iggy got overrated after the finals...He won Finals MVP, How dare I say anyone is better than him??....That was last year. Crawford was playing injured this season and his play declined significantly. He was horrible for the Clippers all year especially in the playoffs. Iggy on the other hand helped his team tremendously.

I mean if you wanna bring up past recent seasons, Iggy was just an all star on a 57 win team 2 years ago. :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Actually, you right Dmavs why waste time on something as small as this? Also what I watch and the facts I have behind it leaves me to just not even post anything about the subject after this:

Last season Crawford vs Iggy Numbers:

Iggy- 8ppg 3st 3reb 1stl PER 12.3

Crawford- 18ppg 2ast 2reb stl PER 16.6

Crawford also finished 3rd in 6th man of the year award votes last season also...He was better than Iggy ALL YEAR....Now Iggy is getting overrated because he got Wide open shots all series with no one within 8ft of him

Whats the point? Iggy got overrated after the finals...He won Finals MVP, How dare I say anyone is better than him??....

You clearly are too influenced by ppg to ever understand true impact...

Go back to 2014.

Iggy was a 9/5/4.... 13.7 PER player

Crawford was a 19/2/3....17.3 PER player

Crawford wins....right?

Well, not unless you ignore RAPM (much better than the above for true impact) and you don't watch the games.

RAPM:

Iggy...+5.34

Crawford....-.92

You have to look at everything if you are going to look at a player. Not just raw stats and PER.

Also, Crawford has been absolutely horrendous in the playoffs for his career. The only thing he does well on the court is score...and when that is the only thing you do...and you are a career sub 50% TS scorer in the playoffs. You have very little value if you are taking a lot of shots. And Jamal is always going to take more than 10 shots no matter what.

You know me...I don't really care much what a guy can do in the regular season against shit teams. The playoffs matter a lot more here...and Jamal has been close to a negative player in the playoffs for his career.

[branslowski]

That was last year. Crawford was playing injured this season and his play declined significantly. He was horrible for the Clippers all year especially in the playoffs. Iggy on the other hand helped his team tremendously.

No, that is from this past season:facepalm

[Relinquish]

Zero Depth?? Look at the Lakers in 10' playoffs the year they won the title, this was our depth off the bench: Lamar Odom 8ppg, Shannon Brown 4ppg,.:oldlol:

Vs Clippers: Crawford 12ppg, Rivers 8ppg had some outstanding games in the Houston Series, his ppg were higher for than round because he got to play.

This is truth, no more excuses for CP3...Today is the day he and his fans face the truth, he's not a winner.

Just admit it already. You're just a salty Lakers fan still mad about the veto. :oldlol:

[branslowski]

You clearly are too influenced by ppg to ever understand true impact...

Go back to 2014.

Iggy was a 9/5/4.... 13.7 PER player

Crawford was a 19/2/3....17.3 PER player

Crawford wins....right?

Well, not unless you ignore RAPM (much better than the above for true impact) and you don't watch the games.

RAPM:

Iggy...+5.34

Crawford....-.92

You have to look at everything if you are going to look at a player. Not just raw stats and PER.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

So let me get this straight, I post RAW numbers the truest of form and I post the top advanced number which is PER and it all falls in Crawfords favor, but all of a sudden some Extra ass advanced metric called RAMP takes away all the facts and settles the debate in Iggy's favor? lol no

You stop it.:oldlol:

Also I posted numbers from this past season inwhich Crawford was clearly better....They both came off the bench aswell, and no shock Crawford finished higher in 6th man of the year award race than Iggy despite Warriors having the best record in the league. That impact.

[Young X]

No, that is from this past season:facepalmOK, cool. Crawford averaged 12.7 on 44.7 TS% with awful defense in the playoffs. How was that better than what Iggy did?

[longtime lurker]

Wait people are still making excuses for Chris Paul? I thought the past 3 years of early exits and massive chokes have shown that he's just not a winner.

[DMAVS41]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

So let me get this straight, I post RAW numbers the truest of form and I post the top advanced number which is PER and it all falls in Crawfords favor, but all of a sudden some Extra ass advanced metric called RAMP takes away all the facts and settles the debate in Iggy's favor? lol no

You stop it.:oldlol:

Also I posted numbers from this past season inwhich Crawford was clearly better....They both came off the bench aswell, and no shock Crawford finished higher in 6th man of the year award race than Iggy despite Warriors having the best record in the league. That impact.



Go take a look at Crawford's playoff numbers. Go take a look at his VORP ratings in the playoffs.

I'm not saying you can't list raw numbers and PER...just don't only list them as they don't factor in defense much, if at all.

Also, RAPM is way better here because Crawford and Iggy now both play off the bench roles for teams. Comparing like with like....Iggy destroys him.

This is obvious.

You don't want a guy shooting sub 50% TS in the playoffs if he shoots a lot. You can't win.

Hence why Jamal has a 0 value over replacement player rating for his career in the playoffs. Like I said before I even looked at that....Jamal has been close to a negative player in the playoffs for his career.

I don't want him on any team if he's going to shoot that much, not play defense, not create well for others, stop the ball...and most importantly....shoot that poorly.

Again...why do you think Iggy played a real role on the Olympic team and Jamal wasn't even thought to be asked on it? You think those coaches tried to build a bad team?

Why do you think Iggy tends to get more burn in the playoffs, but Jamal gets less burn? Coaches trying to lose?

Jamal is the ****ing epitome of a regular season player. He's the guard version of Antawn Jamison.

[Wade's Rings]

Wait people are still making excuses for Chris Paul? I thought the past 3 years of early exits and massive chokes have shown that he's just not a winner.

You can't blame 2013 on him.

[branslowski]

Crawford and Iggy now both play off the bench roles for teams. Comparing like with like....Iggy destroys him.



:facepalm

Last season Crawford vs Iggy Numbers:

Iggy- 8ppg 3st 3reb 1stl PER 12.3

Crawford- 18ppg 2ast 2reb stl PER 16.6

Crawford also finished 3rd in 6th man of the year award votes last season also...He was better than Iggy ALL YEAR....Now Iggy is getting overrated because he got Wide open shots all series with no one within 8ft of him

[DMAVS41]

:facepalm

Last season Crawford vs Iggy Numbers:

Iggy- 8ppg 3st 3reb 1stl PER 12.3

Crawford- 18ppg 2ast 2reb stl PER 16.6

Crawford also finished 3rd in 6th man of the year award votes last season also...He was better than Iggy ALL YEAR....Now Iggy is getting overrated because he got Wide open shots all series with no one within 8ft of him


Sigh...good luck with Crawford man. Good luck winning with him taking his standard 10 to 15 shots on horrid scoring efficiency when it matters most while being a negative player in all other aspects of the game.

Like...could you tell me what Crawford does well in the playoffs? It's not score the ball efficiently...so what does he do well.

Lets take a look at how their teams have performed with them on the court for their careers:

Iggy...his teams are +2.4 points per 100 for his career with him on the court

Jamal...his teams are -2.2 points per 100 for his career with him on the court


Shocking...:lol

And if you want to really get that ether...lets look at their impact in their respective roles on the two teams in question for this debate:

Iggy on Warriors: +12.7 points per 100
Jamal on Clips: +5.3 points per 100

Playoffs?

Iggy on Warriors: +2.4 points per 100
Jamal on Clips: -1.7 points per 100

Iggy is just a better player man...and he clearly helps the Warriors more than Crawford helps/hurts..LOL...the Clips

[Heatles201]

Gotta love the ISH Laker Fans.

When talking about CP3 trade/vetoed to LA : OMG CP3 was going to win rings with this team for us!! curse stern/nba!! RIGGED!!

Now when talking about cp3 who plays across town : Career loser will never win anything!!

gotta love ya agenda freaks

[warriorfan]

Imagine if Jamal Crawford got the Iguodala treatment on defense...He would of scored 50+ points, not even exaggerating.

[warriorfan]

Having your best player's best skill as a playmaker is nice but for a true contending team you need your best player to be your best scorer.

What makes more sense, having your best player dish the ball to your lesser skilled players during key moments? Or having your best player score the ball himself. It leaves less room for error when you are relying on your number 1 option to put the ball in the hoop when the game means the most instead of relying on your number 1 option to kick it to a role player and put all the weight on their shoulders. That isn't a winning formula.

Chris Paul is the supposed Alpha and needs to take the Alpha's scoring responsibilities and he doesn't. Instead people want to give him a free pass for deferring to his less skilled teammates and have them fail instead of him. No excuses. How many big stage failures does Chris Paul need before people stop trying to chalk it up as a coincidence?

[retaxis]

Crawford is on the team for offensive purposes whereas Iggy is on the team for defensive purposes. Comparing stats means sh1t. Simple fact as stated before clippers have two plays they can run: Blake at high post and cp3 wing attack. Blake is good at the high post but dj gets fouled too often and can not make his free throw count. Cp3 is a great pg but not a good wing player like kd, bron, harden etc. therefore fliers are limited offensively. Meanwhile gsw has 2 wing attackers in Steph and klay, high post offensive with David lee and Maurice, low post offended or high low game with bogut and green and a lot of great defenders like Iggy and Barnes too. When coating teams u have to compare team options rather then players individually and clippers have very few options

[No_Look604]

Having your best player's best skill as a playmaker is nice but for a true contending team you need your best player to be your best scorer.

What makes more sense, having your best player dish the ball to your lesser skilled players during key moments? Or having your best player score the ball himself. It leaves less room for error when you are relying on your number 1 option to put the ball in the hoop when the game means the most instead of relying on your number 1 option to kick it to a role player and put all the weight on their shoulders. That isn't a winning formula.

Chris Paul is the supposed Alpha and needs to take the Alpha's scoring responsibilities and he doesn't. Instead people want to give him a free pass for deferring to his less skilled teammates and have them fail instead of him. No excuses. How many big stage failures does Chris Paul need before people stop trying to chalk it up as a coincidence?

Damn for a second there I thought I was in a Lebron James thread.

Same points apply.

[warriorfan]

Crawford is on the team for offensive purposes whereas Iggy is on the team for defensive purposes. Comparing stats means sh1t. Simple fact as stated before clippers have two plays they can run: Blake at high post and cp3 wing attack. Blake is good at the high post but dj gets fouled too often and can not make his free throw count. Cp3 is a great pg but not a good wing player like kd, bron, harden etc. therefore fliers are limited offensively. Meanwhile gsw has 2 wing attackers in Steph and klay, high post offensive with David lee and Maurice, low post offended or high low game with bogut and green and a lot of great defenders like Iggy and Barnes too. When coating teams u have to compare team options rather then players individually and clippers have very few options


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[warriorfan]

Damn for a second there I thought I was in a Lebron James thread.

Same points apply.

Very true

[Young X]

Having your best player's best skill as a playmaker is nice but for a true contending team you need your best player to be your best scorer.No, you need an elite defense. Being able to get stops when you need them is probably the most important thing in playoff basketball for an elite team. Almost every single championship team over the years was a top 10 defense at least.

This years Warrior team held teams to a 100.5 ORtg in the playoffs while the Clippers held teams to a 107.1 ORtg. Offensively they were a wash all season, but defense is what separated them.

[RedBlackAttack]

The problem with Crawford is, while his offensive game is aesthetically pleasing to say the least, he is more a regular season dynamo off the bench than a difference-maker in the playoffs at this stage of his career.

He's going to put up pretty good raw numbers with decent efficiency, but he can (1) be a ball-stopper and (2) is a liability defensively. In the era of pace-and-space and versatile defenders being preferred over guys who can only defend one position, Crawford's game works well during a long 82-game haul where teams don't have a ton of time to set out a specific gameplan to exploit your weaknesses.

When the playoffs start, it is a totally different game. Having Crawford on the floor means needing to figure out ways to hide him on the defensive end. And, you're doing that not for a great shooter who will keep the ball moving, but a guy who likes running plays out of isolation situations, primarily to get himself a shot. He has a very good handle and is a good midrange shooter, but pretty poor from behind the arc. He's also not much of a playmaker and has a pretty woeful assist/turnover ratio.

Iggy on the other hand, can work as a secondary ball-handler and playmaker, but also not stop the ball while doing it. He isn't as good a midrange shooter as Crawford, but he doesn't need to be. He is substantially better from three.

Most importantly, Iggy can defend 2-3 positions pretty seamlessly. He is the guy that teams want to avoid getting involved in P&R action because he can switch onto pretty much any perimeter player and even have occasional, short-term success defending bigger guys.

He is just better suited to today's era of playoff basketball than Crawford and it isn't really close.


Still, I thought the Clippers were one of a handful of teams that had a legitimate shot at a title this year. I thought it was the Warriors, Cavs, Spurs and Clippers in some order heading into the playoffs. Injuries to CP3 and a bit of a letdown series against Houston after defeating a very good Spurs team was their undoing.

But, this was Paul's best shot at a title... and they came up short. Some of it was on him and some was not. He'll get another chance this year.

[warriorfan]

No, you need an elite defense. Being able to get stops when you need them is probably the most important thing in playoff basketball for an elite team. Almost every single championship team over the years was a top 10 defense at least.

This years Warrior team held teams to a 100.5 ORtg in the playoffs while the Clippers held teams to a 107.1 ORtg. Offensively they were a wash all season, but defense is what separated them.

But but but I thought Chris Paul was a great defender? :oldlol:

Now Chris Paul is supposedly a good defender and gets a pass when he is on a shitty defensive team with one of the most dominant big men in the game as his defensive anchor. Yeah this makes sense....

The main reasons why Chris Paul's teams aren't good defensively is because he needs a David West or Blake Griffin to do well. If Paul doesn't have a power forward who is talented in the pick and roll than he struggles offensively. Chris Paul had Tyson Chandler in NO and now DeAndre Jordan in LA and can't lead a good defensive team. This is bullshit. More free passes for CP3.

Instead of CP3 taking over playoff games himself he can keep deferring and dishing it to JJ Reddicks and then blaming them when they lose. Let me know how that works out.

[RidonKs]

dmavs just cannot help himself. even when he starts the conversation with "im not even going to debate you, nobody could possibly be this dumb" it still leads to a dozen posts explaining the difference between iguodala and crawford :lol

that wasn't even the worst part of that player by player comparison btw. op left out speights, lee, bogut, ezili. literally half the warriors frontcourt. each of those guys would have been first big off the bench for the clippers this past season. and why? only because he ran out of players on the clippers he could think of! uhh spencer hawes? hedo turk? big baby def deserves a mention, he was playin hero ball in the playoffs, but still.....

[warriorfan]

The problem with Crawford is, while his offensive game is aesthetically pleasing to say the least, he is more a regular season dynamo off the bench than a difference-maker in the playoffs at this stage of his career.

He's going to put up pretty good raw numbers with decent efficiency, but he can (1) be a ball-stopper and (2) is a liability defensively. In the era of pace-and-space and versatile defenders being preferred over guys who can only defend one position, Crawford's game works well during a long 82-game haul where teams don't have a ton of time to set out a specific gameplan to exploit your weaknesses.

When the playoffs start, it is a totally different game. Having Crawford on the floor means needing to figure out ways to hide him on the defensive end. And, you're doing that not for a great shooter who will keep the ball moving, but a guy who likes running plays out of isolation situations, primarily to get himself a shot. He has a very good handle and is a good midrange shooter, but pretty poor from behind the arc. He's also not much of a playmaker and has a pretty woeful assist/turnover ratio.

Iggy on the other hand, can work as a secondary ball-handler and playmaker, but also not stop the ball while doing it. He isn't as good a midrange shooter as Crawford, but he doesn't need to be. He is substantially better from three.

Most importantly, Iggy can defend 2-3 positions pretty seamlessly. He is the guy that teams want to avoid getting involved in P&R action because he can switch onto pretty much any perimeter player and even have occasional, short-term success defending bigger guys.

He is just better suited to today's era of playoff basketball than Crawford and it isn't really close.


Still, I thought the Clippers were one of a handful of teams that had a legitimate shot at a title this year. I thought it was the Warriors, Cavs, Spurs and Clippers in some order heading into the playoffs. Injuries to CP3 and a bit of a letdown series against Houston after defeating a very good Spurs team was their undoing.

But, this was Paul's best shot at a title... and they came up short. Some of it was on him and some was not. He'll get another chance this year.

Crawford getting the ball with out anyone within 8 feet of him? Put Crawford in Iguodala's shoes in the finals and he would of scored 30 to 50 points a game. No bullshit.

[Cali Syndicate]

Iggy's role on the warriors was to play defense, facilitate and playmake, hit some open j's, basically a glue/utility type of player....filled that role perfectly. In fact, it won him a fmvp.

Crawford's role was to provide offensive spark off the bench...put up decent games here and there, but nothing consistent where you could even put him on the same page as iggy.

Crawford's chucking isnt conducive to winning....what the warriors asked of iggy is. In no way would i want crawford over iggy.

But it does seem more and more apparent that cp3 is overrated. The narrative that followed cp3 for a wcf appearance this season definitely didnt help his legacy.

[Young X]

But but but I thought Chris Paul was a great defender? :oldlol:

Now Chris Paul is supposedly a good defender and gets a pass when he is on a shitty defensive team with one of the most dominant big men in the game as his defensive anchor. Yeah this makes sense....

The main reasons why Chris Paul's teams aren't good defensively is because he needs a David West or Blake Griffin to do well. If Paul doesn't have a power forward who is talented in the pick and roll than he struggles offensively. Chris Paul had Tyson Chandler in NO and now DeAndre Jordan in LA and can't lead a good defensive team. This is bullshit. More free passes for CP3.

Instead of CP3 taking over playoff games himself he can keep deferring and dishing it to JJ Reddicks and then blaming them when they lose. Let me know how that works out.PG's don't impact the game enough defensively to turn a mediocre defense into an elite one.

Clippers were one of the best (better than the Warriors) at defending opposing PG's and they do well against centers, their problems are SG's-PF's. That problem doesn't exist on the Warriors because they have Thompson, Iggy and Green who are much better defenders than Redick, Barnes and Griffin. Look at how well Iggy guarded Bron in the finals, no one could've done that on the Clippers. That's the difference. Offensively the Clippers and Warriors played at the same level in the regular season and playoffs.

[Heavincent]

I think Paul is overrated, but LOL at Crawford being better than Iguodala. That's absurd.

[Heavincent]

Iggy's role on the warriors was to play defense, facilitate and playmake, hit some open j's, basically a glue/utility type of player....filled that role perfectly. In fact, it won him a fmvp.

Crawford's role was to provide offensive spark off the bench...put up decent games here and there, but nothing consistent where you could even put him on the same page as iggy.

Crawford's chucking isnt conducive to winning....what the warriors asked of iggy is. In no way would i want crawford over iggy.

But it does seem more and more apparent that cp3 is overrated. The narrative that followed cp3 for a wcf appearance this season definitely didnt help his legacy.

Even offensively, I'd take Iguodala over Crawford.

Iguodala's point forward abilities > Crawford's chucking

[Cali Syndicate]

Even offensively, I'd take Iguodala over Crawford.

Iguodala's point forward abilities > Crawford's chucking

It was actually a bit entertaining watching crawford when he was a warrior. Him and ellis was a chuckfest. Maybe that version of crawford id take over current iggy, maybe.

But then i remember the warriors freaking won a championship and iggy the fmvp so that maybe is a hell no.

[WorldWarriors]

It was actually a bit entertaining watching crawford when he was a warrior. Him and ellis was a chuckfest. Maybe that version of crawford id take over current iggy, maybe.

But then i remember the warriors freaking won a championship and iggy the fmvp so that maybe is a hell no.

LOL Crawford and Monta going at it on and off the court. I seem to remember Crawford calling Monta a ball hog. We had Corey Magette on that team too.

You can keep all of them, lol. Though I did like Monta, I'm still glad those days are well behind us. Don't know what Mully was thinking.

[iznogood]

But but but I thought Chris Paul was a great defender? :oldlol:

Now Chris Paul is supposedly a good defender and gets a pass when he is on a shitty defensive team with one of the most dominant big men in the game as his defensive anchor. Yeah this makes sense....

The main reasons why Chris Paul's teams aren't good defensively is because he needs a David West or Blake Griffin to do well. If Paul doesn't have a power forward who is talented in the pick and roll than he struggles offensively. Chris Paul had Tyson Chandler in NO and now DeAndre Jordan in LA and can't lead a good defensive team. This is bullshit. More free passes for CP3.

Jordan is actually a mediocre defender at best. The Clippers are a better defensive team when he's sitting on the bench and all the advanced stats confirm this.

[RedBlackAttack]

Crawford getting the ball with out anyone within 8 feet of him? Put Crawford in Iguodala's shoes in the finals and he would of scored 30 to 50 points a game. No bullshit.
No, because the Cavs would have been playing him completely differently and, more importantly, would have been exploiting him on the other end of the court until he was removed from the game. I would've much rather have played Crawford than Iggy in that series. Not even close.

[Cali Syndicate]

LOL Crawford and Monta going at it on and off the court. I seem to remember Crawford calling Monta a ball hog. We had Corey Magette on that team too.

You can keep all of them, lol. Though I did like Monta, I'm still glad those days are well behind us. Don't know what Mully was thinking.
I dont think any player has ever frustrated me more than maggette with his garbage 15 footers. He also may have one of the worst pivot foots in the history of the game.

I dont fully blame mully though, at least he put together that 07 team. Cohan was a terrible owner.

[WorldWarriors]

I dont think any player has ever frustrated me more than maggette with his garbage 15 footers. He also may have one of the worst pivot foots in the history of the game.

I dont fully blame mully though, at least he put together that 07 team. Cohan was a terrible owner. Yes he did. We Believe was the biggest bright spot in that otherwise dismal tenure for Cohan and his henchman Robert Rowell.

[Young X]

All this talk has me wondering, should someone like Billups be ranked over CP3 when talking about great PG's?

Billups is a proven winner, has a ring, FMVP, and made the conference finals 7 straight times.

CP3 has 0 rings and still hasn't made a conference finals.

Billups won with Wallace x2, and Hamilton as his best players. CP3 can't even win with Griffin and Jordan.

Billups was a 7x all star, CP3 is an 8x all star.

[SwishSquared]

Crawford getting the ball with out anyone within 8 feet of him? Put Crawford in Iguodala's shoes in the finals and he would of scored 30 to 50 points a game. No bullshit.I'm delving way too deep into this, but...

If you swap out Crawford for Iggy in the Finals, there's a very good chance GSW couldn't get away with playing their super small ball lineup and would have had much more trouble winning the title.

Who'd guard LBJ? I remember Barnes being ineffective vs. him. If you still play small and put Green on LBJ, then that leaves Harrison Barnes to guard TT/Mozgov in a PnR. Bogut wasn't very effective when both teams played "big," with Draymond @ PF (kinda big for the Warriors, even if Green is undersized), if you try to nullify that CLE advantage. Finals turned around once GSW went super small. Crawford maybe would have scored more than Iggy, but he would have gotten scored on so much it wouldn't have mattered imo.

Crawford is a nice sparkplug but shouldn't play more than 15mpg in the playoffs on a Clippers squad that has a mediocre defense. He cannot guard people and hijacks the offense at the worst time.

In fact, replace Crawford with Iggy on the Clippers and see how much better they get.

[oarabbus]

Crawford getting the ball with out anyone within 8 feet of him? Put Crawford in Iguodala's shoes in the finals and he would of scored 30 to 50 points a game. No bullshit.


Yeah and LeBron would have scored 70 and we would have lost. Iggy was a beast

[Cali Syndicate]

All this talk has me wondering, should someone like Billups be ranked over CP3 when talking about great PG's?

Billups is a proven winner, has a ring, FMVP, and made the conference finals 7 straight times.

CP3 has 0 rings and still hasn't made a conference finals.

Billups won with Wallace x2, and Hamilton as his best players. CP3 can't even win with Griffin and Jordan.

Billups was a 7x all star, CP3 is an 8x all star.

Ben, sheed, prince, hamilton >>> dj, griffin, barnes, jj

[WorldWarriors]

All this talk has me wondering, should someone like Billups be ranked over CP3 when talking about great PG's?

Billups is a proven winner, has a ring, FMVP, and made the conference finals 7 straight times.

CP3 has 0 rings and still hasn't made a conference finals.

Billups won with Wallace x2, and Hamilton as his best players. CP3 can't even win with Griffin and Jordan.

Billups was a 7x all star, CP3 is an 8x all star.

Rasheed "ball don't lie" Wallace was on the Pistons as well as Tayshaun.

[Heavincent]

All this talk has me wondering, should someone like Billups be ranked over CP3 when talking about great PG's?

Billups is a proven winner, has a ring, FMVP, and made the conference finals 7 straight times.

CP3 has 0 rings and still hasn't made a conference finals.

Billups won with Wallace x2, and Hamilton as his best players. CP3 can't even win with Griffin and Jordan.

Billups was a 7x all star, CP3 is an 8x all star.

Are you serious or making a false equivalency between Billups and Curry?

[Magic 32]

This thread would not exist if CP3 played in the east.

[Young X]

Are you serious or making a false equivalency between Billups and Curry?Nah, Curry is easily better than Billups.

I made the comparison because I wanna see if people are consistent.

Billups made the conference finals 7 straight times, and won a ring/FMVP with worse talent offensively. They both have multiple all star selections. All CP3 basically has is better stats.

Shouldn't Billups who is a proven winner be ranked over Paul who constantly loses every year?

[notatop29pg]

Nah, Curry is easily better than Billups.

I made the comparison because I wanna see if people are consistent.

Billups made the conference finals 7 straight times, and won a ring/FMVP with worse talent offensively. They both have multiple all star selections. All CP3 basically has is better stats.

Shouldn't Billups who is a proven winner be ranked over Paul who constantly loses every year?

Derek Fisher is better than CP3, Curry; Rose & Westbrook put together.

:cheers:

[branslowski]

Even offensively, I'd take Iguodala over Crawford.

Iguodala's point forward abilities > Crawford's chucking

You smokin crack if you believe Iggy is a better offensive player than Crawford:biggums:

You think any team would leave Crawford open at the 3 with a defender no where near him giving him 8-10ft of seperation like they did to Iggy?? You think Crawford can go 1-9 from the ft line in clutch time??

Before the Playoffs no one on this board would even claim Iggy was the better 6th man than Crawford...EVEN THE FACTS SHOW CRAWFORD>>>IGGY....Crawford better raw numbers throughout a whole 82 game season than Iggy, finished far higher than Iggy for 6th man voting....Yet it takes a whole 4 games for Iggy to shine in the Finals and become overrated which leads to idiots claiming Iggy>>Crawford.:facepalm

Then they talk about "Iggy's defense on LeBron, arrrg *** shot awww" yet and still the n!gga LeBron avgs 36ppg 12reb 8ast??? Bron only shot bad cause Bron has a broke ass jumper and he was missing hella layups, Bron shut down Bron not Iggy.

[branslowski]

All this talk has me wondering, should someone like Billups be ranked over CP3 when talking about great PG's?

Billups is a proven winner, has a ring, FMVP, and made the conference finals 7 straight times.

CP3 has 0 rings and still hasn't made a conference finals.

Billups won with Wallace x2, and Hamilton as his best players. CP3 can't even win with Griffin and Jordan.

Billups was a 7x all star, CP3 is an 8x all star.

No, Cp3>>>Billups but if Prime Chauncy was on these Clippers they'd atleast make a f*cking conference Final. Mr. Big Shot has that gene that CP3 doesn't.....I remember watching the 03' Eastern Conference Semi's Sixers vs Pistons and Chauncey just time after time hitting a ill 3's to eliminate the Sixers from the playoffs in overtime, sh!t just sucked the wind out of the Sixers and the fans, Iverson couldn't do sh!t...Things like that is what I don't see CP3 ever doing.

[Young X]

No, Cp3>>>Billups but if Prime Chauncy was on these Clippers they'd atleast make a f*cking conference Final. Mr. Big Shot has that gene that CP3 doesn't.....I remember watching the 03' Eastern Conference Semi's Sixers vs Pistons and Chauncey just time after time hitting a ill 3's to eliminate the Sixers from the playoffs in overtime, sh!t just sucked the wind out of the Sixers and the fans, Iverson couldn't do sh!t...Things like that is what I don't see CP3 ever doing.So then why do you say CP3 >>> Billups?

Billups has the "clutch gene" like you said and his teams have accomplished more. You even said he would make the conference finals on this Clipper team. Doesn't that make him the better player?

[Heavincent]

You smokin crack if you believe Iggy is a better offensive player than Crawford:biggums:

You think any team would leave Crawford open at the 3 with a defender no where near him giving him 8-10ft of seperation like they did to Iggy?? You think Crawford can go 1-9 from the ft line in clutch time??

Before the Playoffs no one on this board would even claim Iggy was the better 6th man than Crawford...EVEN THE FACTS SHOW CRAWFORD>>>IGGY....Crawford better raw numbers throughout a whole 82 game season than Iggy, finished far higher than Iggy for 6th man voting....Yet it takes a whole 4 games for Iggy to shine in the Finals and become overrated which leads to idiots claiming Iggy>>Crawford.:facepalm

Then they talk about "Iggy's defense on LeBron, arrrg *** shot awww" yet and still the n!gga LeBron avgs 36ppg 12reb 8ast??? Bron only shot bad cause Bron has a broke ass jumper and he was missing hella layups, Bron shut down Bron not Iggy.

Crawford does one thing and one thing only: score. And he does so on subpar efficiency (straight up bad efficiency in the playoffs).

Meanwhile, Iguodala has legit PG skills. Hell, he actually has BETTER PG skills than most backups PG's (and some starters) while being a 6'6 beast with freakish athleticism. Dude had 75 assists and just 14 turnovers in the playoffs...that's an insanely good assist/TO ratio. He's also lethal in the open court, and can knock down threes when left open.

Iguodala is obviously light years ahead of Crawford in terms of defense. It's no coincidence that Bran shot a much better % when he wasn't guarded by him.

Sorry, but Crawford being a better shooter doesn't make up for the fact that he's inferior to Iguodala in every other facet of the game. Iguodala is:

- 1000000X the defender Crawford is
- Better passer and playmaker
- better rebounder
- more efficient
- more athletic
- better finisher
- less ball dominant

There aren't that many guys in the league with Iguodala's skillset (elite perimeter defender with PG skills). On the other hand, guys like Crawford aren't that hard to find. There are plenty of streaky bench scorers (JR Smith, Lou Williams, Nick Young, etc.). That type of player just isn't as important. There's a reason guys like that float around the league so much.

Like DMAVS said, there's a reason why Iguodala was on the Olympic team. He almost always has a positive impact on the game, and fits in easily with any team.

[Heavincent]

Keep in mind I'm not just somebody jumping on the Iguodala bandwagon after the Finals. I've been a fan of his since he was in Philly. It's great that more people understand how good of a player he is now, but apparently some people still don't get it.

BTW, I agree Curry is a better player than Paul, but a lot of your reasoning is way off.

[Inferno]

Warriors > Clippers.

Is that what the argument is? :confusedshrug:

[Heavincent]

Crawford's supposedly huge advantage over Iguodala is scoring, but wait...

Career PPG

Iguodala - 14.0 on 46%
Crawford - 15.6 on 41%

Career high PPG in a season

Iguodala - 19.9 on 46%
Crawford - 20.6 on 41%

hmm...

I like Crawford. He's fun to watch and can help your team in the right situation, but come on...he's not better than Iguodala. Not even close.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So then why do you say CP3 >>> Billups?

Billups has the "clutch gene" like you said and his teams have accomplished more. You even said he would make the conference finals on this Clipper team. Doesn't that make him the better player?

CP3 is better than Billups because he's a superstar. A guy who does everything better.

Vs Magic and Curry - the guys with super stardom and team success is who he gets compared to. Fact is CP led one of the greatest meltdowns in playoff history. There is no excusing a Harden-less Rockets team overcoming a double-digit lead going into the 4th quarter...of an elimination game...vs Blake and Paul who had 1 field goal combined. Absolutely none.

CP and the Clips will have a number of opportunities to compete for titles, so I disagree with OP there, but your post is nothing more than straw-man to deviate from the real issue here...

[DMAVS41]

No, Cp3>>>Billups but if Prime Chauncy was on these Clippers they'd atleast make a f*cking conference Final. Mr. Big Shot has that gene that CP3 doesn't.....I remember watching the 03' Eastern Conference Semi's Sixers vs Pistons and Chauncey just time after time hitting a ill 3's to eliminate the Sixers from the playoffs in overtime, sh!t just sucked the wind out of the Sixers and the fans, Iverson couldn't do sh!t...Things like that is what I don't see CP3 ever doing.


Well, then you clearly didn't watch the Spurs series.

CP3 never does that shit?

Oh okay...I guess we all dreamed him shooting 61% in the 4th qtrs of the Spurs series...with an absurdly good 67% efg%...

And, you know, a 9 point 4th qtr (iirc) with the last 4 points for his team and the series winner.

But yea...CP3 could just never come through like Billups....:facepalm

That game you are talking about with Billups is a perfect example of the different standards we have for players. Billups shot 6 of 18 and didn't make a shot the entire 4th qtr. He made the game tying free throws in the end of the 4th to force OT...He then hit 3...3's in OT.

To put that game on a different level than Paul's game 7 against the Spurs is simply idiotic.

[DMAVS41]

CP3 is better than Billups because he's a superstar. A guy who does everything better.

Vs Magic and Curry - the guys with super stardom and team success is who he gets compared to. Fact is CP led one of the greatest meltdowns in playoff history. There is no excusing a Harden-less Rockets team overcoming a double-digit lead going into the 4th quarter...of an elimination game...vs Blake and Paul who had 1 field goal combined. Absolutely none.

CP and the Clips will have a number of opportunities to compete for titles, so I disagree with OP there, but your post is nothing more than straw-man to deviate from the real issue here...


This man gets it.

CP3 is clearly a better player than Billups, but that doesn't mean he's immune to criticism for having limited success in the playoffs.

These Clippers teams are way better than CP3 defenders let on. It's taken two epic collapses by Paul/Clippers to lose the last 2 years. So lets tap the brakes on this notion they just aren't good enough.

How about they lose without melting down under the pressure before we write them off as not good enough. Seems to me their biggest threat is their own incompetence in defining moments in the playoffs.

Not like they are getting run off the court by superior teams.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This man gets it.

CP3 is clearly a better player than Billups, but that doesn't mean he's immune to criticism for having limited success in the playoffs.

These Clippers teams are way better than CP3 defenders let on. It's taken two epic collapses by Paul/Clippers to lose the last 2 years. So lets tap the brakes on this notion they just aren't good enough.

How about they lose without melting down under the pressure before we write them off as not good enough. Seems to me their biggest threat is their own incompetence in defining moments in the playoffs.

Not like they are getting run off the court by superior teams.

It's a strange phenomena dude...

Shaq, Kobe, Mike, LeBron, Bird, Magic...all these guys had their share of chokes, but you don't see their fans deny that. Paul is going into his 11th season with another great cast...and what's separating them is that they got it done. They have chips to fall back on. At some point these fanbois are gonna have to quit sweeping his shortcomings under the rug and face reality.

Paul's "lack of help" nonsense is treading on cry wolf. At the end of the day nobody is gonna take these excuses seriously.

[ralph_i_el]

I understand how great a player he is statistically, I also find myself mesmerized by his skillful artfully abilities on the court when he's all the way on, but lets face the truth about Chris Paul....HE'S NOT A WINNER!! I can see it in his eyes, he doesn't have the ability to lead a team to a title...He may show that "fire" in burst but on an overall consistent stand point he doesn't bring his A game and the Will to win A game with him.

Now before you start to make illogical opinions like:



Let me tell you, he plays with a top 3 PF in Blake Griffin, yes Blake F*CKING Griffin who's a versatile big man who in the playoffs averaged 25ppg 12reb 6ast blk on 50%fg, (MONSTER NUMBERS) and a Top 3 Center in Deandre Jordan, yes Dre Day Jordan the King of rebounding and blocking shots avereging 11ppg 15reb 2blks on 71%fg only to up his scoring in the playoffs with 13ppg 13reb 2.4blks and 71%fg.....So how does he not have a team?? I didn't even mention having a All-Time great Coach in Doc, playing with one of the greatest 6th men in the game in Crawford, and having a 3pt shooter in Reddick and a defensive perimeter player who can also hit a 3 in Matt Barnes....His team has everything you needed to win a title: A defensive big man in the middle for rebounding blocking shots, a All-Star type player in who can get you 20 and 10 along with assist, a role player who can shoot the 3, a role player who can also shoot the 3 aswell as defend his position, and a 6th man who can warm up and score anytime...Give stars like Kobe, Curry, Durant and WestBrook that kind of team and you'd get titles instantly. Not with CP3 though because he's just not a winner.

It's a shame really, because tell me how many times you said to yourself "Man, if CP3 just gets agressive with his scoring here, there's no way he can be stopped"?? I've said it alot...Dude can dribble to any spot on the court he wants. With any pick he always get to within 6 to 8ft from the rim where he has an unstoppable touch jumper. I mean he's capable of putting up 42pt 10ast 4stl games in the playoffs non stop but he just flops off....I remember when he was in New Orleans and he had some memorable games vs Spurs i the playoffs, yet he then shuts himself down by not being agressive scoring in games when they need it because once again....HE's NOT A WINNER

I just see it in players eyes, yeah they can have great games with stats but at the end of the day it's that fight, even when your not scoring or assistin or watever you still do other things to win a game like rebound, defense, making your teammates believe they can't be stopped on the court, exc...Paul just doesn't have any of those qualities...So if you're a CP3 fan and your're waiting for a ring then you should keep waiting, because as long as he's the LEADER of a team he wont ever win one.

#Overrated

Now check out his on/off stats

While he plays, the clips dominate. They had the worst bench of any playoff team last year. Wtf is CP3 supposed to do, play 48mpg?

His team was clearly inferior. BG is an all-nba talent, but DJ is just average impact-wise. Jamal Craword is a good 6th man, but outside of that they are deficient at every position.

Switch CP3 and Russ in '12....OKC wins it all
Switch CP3 and Curry in '15....GSW wins it all

Last season the clippers bench units blew so many leads it wasn't even funny. How can CP3 get the blame for that?

By the way, advanced camera tracking says that CP3 is the best on-ball defender in the league.

[DMAVS41]

It's a strange phenomena dude...

Shaq, Kobe, Mike, LeBron, Bird, Magic...all these guys had their share of chokes, but you don't see their fans deny that. Paul is going into his 11th season with another great cast...and what's separating them is that they got it done. They have chips to fall back on. At some point these fanbois are gonna have to quit sweeping his shortcomings under the rug and face reality.

Paul's "lack of help" nonsense is treading on cry wolf. At the end of the day nobody is gonna take these excuses seriously.

And it speaks to how good people actually think he is. Dirk, for example, got roasted like all the true all time greats for achieving much more than Paul with way less help for many years of his career.

That is, imo, the true way to find out where people actually place players. If a guy like Paul doesn't get much hate anywhere for what's happened these last 2 years...it just shows he's not as good as a lot of people claim.

If Dirk is gonna get hate for not winning it all in 06...not sure why Paul wouldn't be getting crucified for not getting out of the 2nd round each of the last 2 years.

[DMAVS41]

Now check out his on/off stats

While he plays, the clips dominate. They had the worst bench of any playoff team last year. Wtf is CP3 supposed to do, play 48mpg?

His team was clearly inferior. BG is an all-nba talent, but DJ is just average impact-wise. Jamal Craword is a good 6th man, but outside of that they are deficient at every position.

Switch CP3 and Russ in '12....OKC wins it all
Switch CP3 and Curry in '15....GSW wins it all

Last season the clippers bench units blew so many leads it wasn't even funny. How can CP3 get the blame for that?

While I agree with the general points of your post, I would hesitate to claim the bold.

I don't think CP3 wins it in 12 on the Thunder. Like...yea, I think the Thunder might be a little better with Paul in place of WB there...maybe, but I don't think it's anywhere near enough to flip a 5 game series in the finals against a loaded Heat team.

And the Warriors might still win, but they'd be way worse with Paul than Curry. The Warriors defense would improve a little, but they were already an elite defense. And their offense would take a real dip. Curry does things to opposing defenses that Paul simply can't consistently do.

I'm not saying Curry is way better than Paul or anything, but on the Warriors...Curry fits much better.

[ralph_i_el]

While I agree with the general points of your post, I would hesitate to claim the bold.

I don't think CP3 wins it in 12 on the Thunder. Like...yea, I think the Thunder might be a little better with Paul in place of WB there...maybe, but I don't think it's anywhere near enough to flip a 5 game series in the finals against a loaded Heat team.

And the Warriors might still win, but they'd be way worse with Paul than Curry. The Warriors defense would improve a little, but they were already an elite defense. And their offense would take a real dip. Curry does things to opposing defenses that Paul simply can't consistently do.

I'm not saying Curry is way better than Paul or anything, but on the Warriors...Curry fits much better.

I see your point, but cp3 with Klay would be an absolute treat to watch.

https://youtu.be/0WHJjVr0iho
I remember watching this game live and thinking "this is the equivalent of a pitcher throwing a perfect game". Cp3 picked the Wizards appart by making the correct play every time he touched the ball.

We like to get excited over guys like Westbrook and Kobe who can just force their will on the game, but I like a guy like CP3 who just makes the right decision every time and lives with the results. Has anyone ever said " damn, cp3 just shot us out of the game!"?

Out of all point guards in the league CP3 :
Has the best handle
Has the best decision making
Is the best passer

[DMAVS41]

I see your point, but cp3 with Klay would be an absolute treat to watch

Sure, but Curry and Klay are better.

Curry's off ball impact and "gravity" on offense are just beyond all time great good. That are historic for a point.

As good and as deep as the Warriors are...Curry makes that team go offensively.

Brutal truth with CP3? I could definitely envision his fans complaining about help with that Warriors team at times. Klay goes missing sometimes and that spacing just wouldn't be nearly as good.

Also, the flip side to your argument about CP3 not shooting you out of a game is that he doesn't dominate the game offensively enough at times because of that high efficiency only shot taking.

When push comes to shove in the playoffs and you need a guy to score like 10 straight points...CP3 leaves a lot to be desired...and I think that is an under-rated part of winning in the playoffs.

[ralph_i_el]

Sure, but Curry and Klay are better.

Curry's off ball impact and "gravity" on offense are just beyond all time great good. That are historic for a point.

As good and as deep as the Warriors are...Curry makes that team go offensively.

Brutal truth with CP3? I could definitely envision his fans complaining about help with that Warriors team at times. Klay goes missing sometimes and that spacing just wouldn't be nearly as good.

Also, the flip side to your argument about CP3 not shooting you out of a game is that he doesn't dominate the game offensively enough at times because of that high efficiency only shot taking.

When push comes to shove in the playoffs and you need a guy to score like 10 straight points...CP3 leaves a lot to be desired...and I think that is an under-rated part of winning in the playoffs.

5-star post man. I can't disagree with anything you've said, but I still stand by my points.

For reference, I would take Curry over CP3 now, but CP3 has been my #1 pg since '08 until now.

[3ball]

Lebron does exactly what CP3 does - he led the Cavs to great regular season success in 2009 and 2010, but underachieved in the playoffs..

People make excuses for Lebron losing with Mo Williams (16/5), Antawn Jamison (16/8), Anderson Varejao, Shaq, Hickson, Delonte, and Zydrunas - a solid team - but it makes no sense for any team to win 60+ in the regular season, and then NOT be expected to win in their conference's playoffs..

If a team wins 60+ in RS, they should be expected to WIN in their conference's playoffs.. Letting Lebron off the hook is DUMB.

Ultimately, the only reason Lebron finally won a couple rings is because he team-hopped to play with a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option (Bosh)... If you gave CP3 a 10-time time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option, I'm sure he'd go 2/4 too.
.

[Thechosen1]

every year there is a thread of a random pg being better than cp3....someone in this equation is always the common denominator....end thread

[Young X]

CP3 is better than Billups because he's a superstar. A guy who does everything better.What does he have to show for it? Stats? His teams haven't done shit.

What makes him a superstar? Don't superstars get their teams past the 2nd round at least once?

If he's better than Billups why haven't his teams come close to matching the success of Billups' teams from '03-'09 (7 straight conference finals). He's had more than enough talent to do it.

[ArbitraryWater]

No, Cp3>>>Billups but if Prime Chauncy was on these Clippers they'd atleast make a f*cking conference Final. Mr. Big Shot has that gene that CP3 doesn't.....I remember watching the 03' Eastern Conference Semi's Sixers vs Pistons and Chauncey just time after time hitting a ill 3's to eliminate the Sixers from the playoffs in overtime, sh!t just sucked the wind out of the Sixers and the fans, Iverson couldn't do sh!t...Things like that is what I don't see CP3 ever doing.

cant...stop...contradicting :lol

says Billups would have more success with equal circumstances, calls him inferior.


You're dumb as shit my dude.

[WorldWarriors]

You can't just plug CP into the Warriors and expect the same results. The Warriors have built the whole team around Steph's offensive game. Klay has had some great moments but he is not consistent enough to rely on to be the main guy for scoring. Maybe in a couple of years.

[RidonKs]

[/B]

Well, then you clearly didn't watch the Spurs series.

CP3 never does that shit?

Oh okay...I guess we all dreamed him shooting 61% in the 4th qtrs of the Spurs series...with an absurdly good 67% efg%...

And, you know, a 9 point 4th qtr (iirc) with the last 4 points for his team and the series winner.

But yea...CP3 could just never come through like Billups....:facepalm

That game you are talking about with Billups is a perfect example of the different standards we have for players. Billups shot 6 of 18 and didn't make a shot the entire 4th qtr. He made the game tying free throws in the end of the 4th to force OT...He then hit 3...3's in OT.

To put that game on a different level than Paul's game 7 against the Spurs is simply idiotic.
:applause:

[Jacks3]

As soon as CP3 wins a ring people will go back and look at the ridiculous advanced stats he put up and the amazing +/- numbers he put up and he'll be seen as a legendary guard in the mold of West, Bryant, Magic and Oscar. And I have no doubt that some people will look at his numbers and start talking about him as the GOAT PG.

Literally the only thing that matters is getting a ring. If he does...I could see him being more revered after retirement than he was during his actual prime. It's silly but winning bias still has a huge impact on how players are ranked.

[Carbine]

As soon as CP3 wins a ring people will go back and look at the ridiculous advanced stats he put up and the amazing +/- numbers he put up and he'll be seen as a legendary guard in the mold of West, Bryant, Magic and Oscar. And I have no doubt that some people will look at his numbers and start talking about him as the GOAT PG.

Literally the only thing that matters is getting a ring. If he does...I could see him being more revered after retirement than he was during his actual prime. It's silly but winning bias still has a huge impact on how players are ranked.

Yup.

[DMAVS41]

What does he have to show for it? Stats? His teams haven't done shit.

What makes him a superstar? Don't superstars get their teams past the 2nd round at least once?

If he's better than Billups why haven't his teams come close to matching the success of Billups' teams from '03-'09 (7 straight conference finals). He's had more than enough talent to do it.


You actually believe CP3 has had enough talent around him to make 7 straight conference finals?

[StephHamann]

The Truth About Chris Paul

1.Midget
2. Can't get to the WCF
3. Not the best player on his team
4. His kid is ugly
5. Shrimp dicked

[Rocketswin2013]

As soon as CP3 wins a ring people will go back and look at the ridiculous advanced stats he put up and the amazing +/- numbers he put up and he'll be seen as a legendary guard in the mold of West, Bryant, Magic and Oscar. And I have no doubt that some people will look at his numbers and start talking about him as the GOAT PG.

Literally the only thing that matters is getting a ring. If he does...I could see him being more revered after retirement than he was during his actual prime. It's silly but winning bias still has a huge impact on how players are ranked.
This is true.

[FKAri]

This is true.

It's retarded tho. CP3 is one of the greatest PGs ever. There is only so much impact one can expect from that role. Superstar PGs are overrated imo. But if you want one, CP3's the closest you're gonna get in today's league.

[SpecialQue]

defs a loser in the end...

A loser who rammed his dwarf c0ck down your favorite team's throat.

[Clifton]

This idea is silly.

Chris Paul is a winner. I don't care if he never makes a conference finals. He's a winner because that's who he is.

Not winning championships doesn't make you a loser. It's very hard for a loser to win a championship, but it's very easy for a winner to never win one.

Was KG a loser in Minnesota? Pierce a loser before KG joined him? Dirk a loser before 2011? Lebron a loser before 2012? No... they got bad breaks, they got beat by better teams, etc.

And I would even say that Paul is more of a winner than any of those players except maybe Pierce.

Paul is such a winner that he creates problems. Just like Kobe. Kobe always had guys like Fisher and Shaq and other veterans, and a diplomat in Phil Jackson. Paul has had David West and Tyson Chandler and JJ Reddick... 100% of his other teammates however have been losers. And because Paul's a winner and they're not, it makes them feel inadequate, and that's why his teams choke. That's a weakness of Paul's, but it doesn't make him a loser.

[Young X]

[/B]

You actually believe CP3 has had enough talent around him to make 7 straight conference finals?No but if he's that good shouldn't he have made at least one with the amazing level of talent he's played with? His teams have been more talented than Billups yet he still hasn't come close to winning a championship.

If we're being consistent, there's no way CP3 should be ranked over guys like Billups, Parker. Those guys were all stars who were huge parts of championship teams. CP3 on the other hand hasn't won anything, all he basically has is stats. :confusedshrug:

[Doranku]

This idea is silly.

Chris Paul is a winner. I don't care if he never makes a conference finals. He's a winner because that's who he is.

Not winning championships doesn't make you a loser. It's very hard for a loser to win a championship, but it's very easy for a winner to never win one.

Was KG a loser in Minnesota? Pierce a loser before KG joined him? Dirk a loser before 2011? Lebron a loser before 2012? No... they got bad breaks, they got beat by better teams, etc.

And I would even say that Paul is more of a winner than any of those players except maybe Pierce.

Paul is such a winner that he creates problems. Just like Kobe. Kobe always had guys like Fisher and Shaq and other veterans, and a diplomat in Phil Jackson. Paul has had David West and Tyson Chandler and JJ Reddick... 100% of his other teammates however have been losers. And because Paul's a winner and they're not, it makes them feel inadequate, and that's why his teams choke. That's a weakness of Paul's, but it doesn't make him a loser.

Yeah, Chris Paul is a winner just like Dwight Howard is a champion at the end of the day.

[TripleA]

Yeah, Chris Paul is a winner just like Dwight Howard is a champion at the end of the day.

technically Dwight Howard was once champion of eastern conference.:lol

[Young X]

To take it even further, why do so many people rank Stockton over Parker?

Stockton has 0 rings
Parker has 5 rings and a FMVP

They're both all stars who played alonside legendary PF's. One was a "loser", the other was a "winner". Which kind of player would you want on your team? :confusedshrug:

And why is Oscar Roberston constantly ranked so high?

He went 10 seasons without getting past the 2nd round just like CP3. Only got to the finals when he teamed up with Kareem at the age of 32.

Shouldn't Thomas be ranked over him? His teams were much more successful and he has a FMVP unlike Oscar.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Queen of straw-man over here... :lol

[dunksby]

Ironic how some random basement dweller calls a proper star athlete a "loser".

[chips93]

If he's better than Billups why haven't his teams come close to matching the success of Billups' teams from '03-'09 (7 straight conference finals). He's had more than enough talent to do it.

because the east has been trash for over a decade now, while the west has been a bloodbath.

[branslowski]

To take it even further, why do so many people rank Stockton over Parker?

Stockton has 0 rings
Parker has 5 rings and a FMVP

They're both all stars who played alonside legendary PF's. One was a "loser", the other was a "winner". Which kind of player would you want on your team? :confusedshrug:

And why is Oscar Roberston constantly ranked so high?

He went 10 seasons without getting past the 2nd round just like CP3. Only got to the finals when he teamed up with Kareem at the age of 32.

Shouldn't Thomas be ranked over him? His teams were much more successful and he has a FMVP unlike Oscar.

Lets futher along the homo point your're tryna make and continue the non logical basis around it.... Horry>>>Barkley...Did I do this right?

[Legends66NBA7]

Lets futher along the homo point your're tryna make and continue the non logical basis around it.... Horry>>>Barkley...Did I do this right?

But he compared to star player vs star player. Not role player vs stat player.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Lets futher along the homo point your're tryna make and continue the non logical basis around it.... Horry>>>Barkley...Did I do this right?

Fisher > Bean sounds a bit more enticing. Put that on a t-shirt, bruh. :oldlol:

[T_L_P]

To take it even further, why do so many people rank Stockton over Parker?

Stockton has 0 rings
Parker has 5 rings and a FMVP

They're both all stars who played alonside legendary PF's. One was a "loser", the other was a "winner". Which kind of player would you want on your team? :confusedshrug:

And why is Oscar Roberston constantly ranked so high?

He went 10 seasons without getting past the 2nd round just like CP3. Only got to the finals when he teamed up with Kareem at the age of 32.

Shouldn't Thomas be ranked over him? His teams were much more successful and he has a FMVP unlike Oscar.

This.

[Young X]

Lets futher along the homo point your're tryna make and continue the non logical basis around it.... Horry>>>Barkley...Did I do this right?Horry was a ROLE PLAYER. Every player I named was an all star level player who were huge parts of their teams.

Before teaming up with Kareem at 32 in Milwaukee, Oscar had even less playoffs wins/success in his first 10 seasons than CP. He was a "loser".

Isiah on the other hand went to the conference finals 5 straight years, won 2 rings and a FMVP unlike Oscar.

Despite this, Thomas is consistently ranked below Oscar? Why?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Tony Parker was never the absolute best player on his team like CP is/was (if we include BOTH the regular-season and playoffs 2013 was the closest).

Not sure how and/or why bringing up other all-stars SOMEHOW negates Paul's disappearing act in game 6, the biggest game of his career :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

Players who will never get credit on ISH:

Chris Paul
James Harden
Dwight Howard
Wilt Chamberlain


While LeBron and Kobe get hated on constantly, they have so many fans it can easily go the other way depending on what happens. The players I mentioned just get bukkaked in threads.

[warriorfan]

The Truth About Chris Paul

1.Midget
2. Can't get to the WCF
3. Not the best player on his team
4. His kid is ugly
5. Shrimp dicked


:lebronamazed:

[branslowski]

To take it even further, why do so many people rank Stockton over Parker?

Stockton has 0 rings
Parker has 5 rings and a FMVP

They're both all stars who played alonside legendary PF's. One was a "loser", the other was a "winner". Which kind of player would you want on your team? :confusedshrug:

And why is Oscar Roberston constantly ranked so high?

He went 10 seasons without getting past the 2nd round just like CP3. Only got to the finals when he teamed up with Kareem at the age of 32.

Shouldn't Thomas be ranked over him? His teams were much more successful and he has a FMVP unlike Oscar.

I'll play

Parker doesn't have nearly the career numbers or accolades that adds up to Stockton. Also Stockton ran into Jordan and Parker was on the team of an already Top 10 player All-Time in Duncan, so ease that up....And since I see the source of what you're tryna do- CP3 lost to Howard and Harden with a 3-1 lead and Griffin/Jordan on his team.

Also none of my argument in this thread is about wher CP3 ranks All-Time or currently in the NBA...My argument is simply that he's not a winner...Can't say that against Stockton and Malone because they ran into the GREATEST.

[tpols]

Chris paul fked up not signing on an east team.. he could've taken the bucks to the finals

[RRR3]

Not sure if true but someone said CP3 had faced a 50+ win team in every playoff series he's been. If so, it's kinda hypocritical to slam him for not winning a ring when you guys push the whole "Leastern conference" thing.

[warriorfan]

Not sure if true but someone said CP3 had faced a 50+ win team in every playoff series he's been. If so, it's kinda hypocritical to slam him for not winning a ring when you guys push the whole "Leastern conference" thing.

you don't know shit about basketball

[RRR3]

you don't know shit about basketball
Not as much as most posters, but unlike you I do have a fully functioning brain.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not sure if true but someone said CP3 had faced a 50+ win team in every playoff series he's been. If so, it's kinda hypocritical to slam him for not winning a ring when you guys push the whole "Leastern conference" thing.

How do you feel about Blake and Paul's performances in game 6? And by asking that, I mean blowing a ~20 point lead going to the 4th quarter, at home, in an elimination game, against a Harden-less Rockets team.

Stats for reference: Paul and Blake combined to score 1 field goal in the 4th quarter...Paul had no assists either.

[RRR3]

How do you feel about Blake and Paul's performances in game 6? And by asking that, I mean blowing a ~20 point lead going to the 4th quarter, at home, in an elimination game, against a Harden-less Rockets team.

Stats for reference: Paul and Blake combined to score 1 field goal in the 4th quarter...Paul had no assists either.
No one rates Blake that highly in an all time sense.

I missed that game IIRC. Regardless every player has their share of poor performances.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm a huge fan of both players, I just hate when people need to make excuses for them. It sounds weak.


No one rates Blake that highly in an all time sense.

I missed that game IIRC. Regardless every player has their share of poor performances.

Absolutely, but that's been my contention all along here.

As a guy who's normally partial, wouldn't you say that CP and Blake choked their opportunity away at a WCF?

[RRR3]

I'm a huge fan of both players, I just hate when people need to make excuses for them. It sounds weak.



Absolutely, but that's been my contention all along here.

As a guy who's normally partial, wouldn't you say that CP and Blake choked their opportunity away at a WCF?
Partial to who? Blake? Not a fan.

Cp3? For sure one of my favorite players.


Like I said I missed game 6 (and maybe game 5) I can't remember why. I saw games 1-4 and some of game 7.

[ninephive]

He's the Tony Romo of the NBA. Really good player, but shouldn't be compared with the greats until he at the very least reaches a Conference Championship game/series. Very talented, can put up amazing numbers (Romo's got like the #3 QBR of all time). So even though I'm a huge Romo fan, I don't think he gets to be in the conversation with the greats until he goes deep into the playoffs at least once (probably needs to win a SB). It's not that Romo will become better as a player by doing that, it's just that if you didn't measure sports with winning, everything would be pretty much arbitrary and speculation. In other words, there's a lot of guys that could put up those types of numbers, but some coaches don't let that happen because it may lead to losing basketball, which is has with CP3.

[RRR3]

In ninephives world TP is "one of the greats" but CP isn't :lol

[warriorfan]

Partial to who? Blake? Not a fan.

Cp3? For sure one of my favorite players.


Like I said I missed game 6 (and maybe game 5) I can't remember why. I saw games 1-4 and some of game 7.

so you don't watch games and just make baseless claims regarding semantics

go back to your BTE and talk about wizards and cartoons cause you do not know anything about bball...

[RRR3]

so you don't watch games and just make baseless claims regarding semantics

go back to your BTE and talk about wizards and cartoons cause you do not know anything about bball...
I rarely post in the BTE. You probably think I do because of my rep (most of which I got when negging was disabled).

I didn't say I didn't watch games you dolt I watch when I can.

My claims are based on my idea of common sense.



Also



#ZVC

[Young X]

Tony Parker was never the absolute best player on his team like CP is/was (if we include BOTH the regular-season and playoffs 2013 was the closest).

Not sure how and/or why bringing up other all-stars SOMEHOW negates Paul's disappearing act in game 6, the biggest game of his career :confusedshrug:I'm comparing Parker to Stockton not CP. Stockton wasn't the absolute best player on his team either, they both played with all time great PF's. Parker has 4 rings and a FMVP to Stockton's 0. If we're being consistent shouldn't he been seen as the better/greater player?

And none of my posts in this thread have anything to do with that game 6 against Houston. I'm using the same logic used in the OP and the logic usually used against CP3. Even if we're talking about that game, CP didn't "disappear". He had 31/11/7 on 65 TS% with 2 turnovers. His 4th quarter wasn't great but he didn't disappear.


I'll play

Parker doesn't have nearly the career numbers or accolades that adds up to Stockton. Also Stockton ran into Jordan and Parker was on the team of an already Top 10 player All-Time in Duncan, so ease that up....And since I see the source of what you're tryna do- CP3 lost to Howard and Harden with a 3-1 lead and Griffin/Jordan on his team.

Also none of my argument in this thread is about wher CP3 ranks All-Time or currently in the NBA...My argument is simply that he's not a winner...Can't say that against Stockton and Malone because they ran into the GREATEST.Isn't that an "excuse"?

CP3 has faced the toughest competition out of any player in the league, he's never even faced a sub 50 win team.

Any time this is brought up it's an "excuse".

Fact is, Stockton never won a championship and his teams constantly came up short.

If you're being consistent he should be viewed as a "loser" as well.

[ninephive]

In ninephives world TP is "one of the greats" but CP isn't :lol
Well, when both put up similar numbers in their career and one has 4 championships, a FMVP, is the winningest player through 1,000 games in NBA history, and is the all time playoff-scoring leader for PGs...and then one is a guy who couldn't make the WCF with a stacked team, good coach, 10 years, and 5 years together with the same core guys, then you can see why.

Career Stats per 36
Chris Paul: 18.6 PPG, 9.9 AST on 47%
Tony Parker: 18.8 PPG, 6.6 AST on 49%

[RRR3]

Well, when both put up similar numbers in their career and one has 4 championships, a FMVP, is the winningest player through 1,000 games in NBA history, and is the all time playoff-scoring leader for PGs...and then one is a guy who couldn't make the WCF with a stacked team, good coach, 10 years, and 5 years together with the same core guys, then you can see why.
One more ring and TP>Magic amirite?

[Legends66NBA7]

In other words, there's a lot of guys that could put up those types of numbers, but some coaches don't let that happen because it may lead to losing basketball, which is has with CP3.

So it's his coaches fault he doesn't win NBA championships ?

[ninephive]

One more ring and TP>Magic amirite?
No, but if he wins the FMVP in 2013 & 2014 (very good chance at both since he was the best player on the team for pretty much every other series those playoffs until he pulled hamstrings both times), then he's getting closer.

[RRR3]

No, but if he wins the FMVP in 2013 & 2014 (very good chance at both since he was the best player on the team for pretty much every other series those playoffs until he pulled hamstrings both times), then he's getting closer.
Wow.

[SwishSquared]

Chris paul fked up not signing on an east team.. he could've taken the bucks to the finalsI agree. I thought both CP3 and Dwight should have gone to ATL when they had the chance if they wanted to go deep in the playoff annually. Of course, Dwight should've kept his promise to team up with Paul in Dallas a few years back, but :hammerhead:

Rockets are a great situation but the West is getting tougher every year. The East the past 2 years had a free ticket to the ECF basically.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm comparing Parker to Stockton not CP. Stockton wasn't the absolute best player on his team either, they both played with all time great PF's. Parker has 4 rings and a FMVP to Stockton's 0. If we're being consistent shouldn't he been seen as the better/greater player?

And none of my posts in this thread have anything to do with that game 6 against Houston. I'm using the same logic used in the OP and the logic usually used against CP3. Even if we're talking about that game, CP didn't "disappear". He had 31/11/7 on 65 TS% with 2 turnovers. His 4th quarter wasn't great but he didn't disappear.

You're not being "consistent" because Stockton was a much better passer, defender and all-around player than Parker. Stockton and Malone also had to face the dynasty Bulls, so no, your comparison is actually quite terrible.

When its guys like Chris Paul, Magic, and Steph Curry - players who impact the game at a legendary level - championships and winning are absolutely ****ing imperative.

More importantly, when you're the leader of a team, and its best player, losing a ~20 point lead going into the 4th quarter, in an elimination game, and only having one field goal in said quarter is inexcusable.

Saying his 4th quarter "wasn't great" doesn't even begin to describe it. That was LeBron 2011 all over again. Same goes for Blake... Feels like I'm repeating myself here, because some of you just refuse to get the severity of it all - a meltdown of epic proportions.

[ninephive]

So it's his coaches fault he doesn't win NBA championships ?
No, a team with Chris Paul as your best player is probably not going to win a championship because there have been enough crunch-time meltdowns to show us otherwise (both in individual game scenarios and in series). I could list a bunch of them out if you want. But being over-reliant on him inflates his stats so that statistically he looks like a first-option player, when in reality I don't think he is (personally). I just think you need someone better than Chris Paul to be your centerpiece.

[warriorfan]

You're not being "consistent" because Stockton was a much better passer, defender and all-around player than Parker. Stockton and Malone also had to face the dynasty Bulls, so no, your comparison actually quite terrible.

When its players like Chris Paul, Magic, and Steph Curry - players who impact the game at a legendary level - championships and winning are absolutely ****ing imperative.

More importantly, when you're the leader of a team, and its best player, losing a ~20 point lead going into the 4th quarter, in the an elimination game, and only having one field goal in said quarter is inexcusable.

Saying his 4th quarter "wasn't great" doesn't even begin to describe it. That was LeBron 2011 all over again. Same goes for Blake... Feels like I'm repeating myself here, because some of you just refuse NOT to get the severity of the inexplicable meltdown the Clippers, and CP/Blake had.

cp3 fans just give him pass after pass after pass, shit is crazy

[ninephive]

Wow.
So you're telling me that if Parker had 3 FMVPs right now, we wouldn't be considering him an all-time great?

Magic scored 19.2 PER36 in a league that was MUCH faster paced (compared to Parker's 18.8 in the Spurs at a much slower-paced era). Then add to that Magic's supporting cast: Kareem>Duncan, Worthy>Manu, etc. etc.

Now, obviously Parker's nowhere near the passer Magic was, which is why he will never be in that conversation, but from an All-Time great standpoint, anyone with 3 FMVPs should be considered. He was extremely close to having 2, and relatively close to having 3 (outscored Kawhi in the Finals).

[Young X]

At least ninephive is consistent.

He focuses only on playoff wins, championships and FMVP's and his conclusion is that Parker is one of the greats while CP3 isn't.

The rest of these fools use arguments against certain players and ignore it when it comes to others.

"b-b-but Stockton isn't a loser because went up against JORDAN!!!"

F*ck outta here.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I "focus" on everything (otherwise Robert Horry = GOAT), but again, that doesn't excuse Chris Paul's meltdown in game 6.

Any other all-time great would've been hammered for disappearing like that. Just look at LeBron in 2011 and the 4th quarter jokes that ensued...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

cp3 fans just give him pass after pass after pass, shit is crazy

I've never seen anything like it. They want to say he's on Magic's level, but disappearing and losing with great help is completely excused. Simply ignored.

It's literally a mindf*ck :oldlol:

[Heavincent]

Curry, Kidd, and Nash > Paul

[Young X]

How did he "meltdown"?

I just rewatched that game recently.

Rockets scored 40 pts in the quarter and literally none of those points were because of CP3. Not one of them.

He got Blake like 5 good looks and he either got blocked or missed all of them.

Before the final minute when the game was decided he scored 6 points but went 1-5.

He didn't have a good quarter and should get some heat for that in a crucial game he didn't meltdown at all.

And who the f*ck said he's on Magic's level? :oldlol:

The most you'll hear people say is he's the best PG since he retired.

[warriorfan]

How did he "meltdown"?

I just rewatched that game recently.

Rockets scored 40 pts in the quarter and literally none of those points were because of CP3. Not one of them.

He got Blake like 5 good looks and he either got blocked or missed all of them.

Before the final minute when the game was decided he scored 6 points but went 1-5.

He didn't have a good quarter and should get some heat for that in a crucial game he didn't meltdown at all.

And who the f*ck said he's on Magic's level? :oldlol:

The most you'll hear people say is he's the best PG since he retired.


excuses, excuses, excuses, more excuses....

CP3 stans :facepalm

[Heavincent]

The most you'll hear people say is he's the best PG since he retired.

He's not though. Curry is already more accomplished.

[Young X]

He's not though. Curry is already more accomplished.Alot of players are more accomplished than him. Depends on how much emphasis you put on it. Kawhi Leonard is more accomplished than him and he's another all star level player. Curry is also more accomplished than Oscar Robertson and Charles Barkley as well.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He didn't have a good quarter and should get some heat for that in a crucial game he didn't meltdown at all.

Scoring one field goal and having no assists isn't getting it done, and not leading a team against an opponent without its best player, in an elimination game, certainly qualifies as a meltdown.

That is vintage LeBron stuff right there...


And who the f*ck said he's on Magic's level? :oldlol:

A few pages back Jacks3 claimed that after winning a title, people would put him up there w/ Magic because of his stats. Is that not bullshit?


The most you'll hear people say is he's the best PG since he retired.

He's not "better" than Curry atm. There's actually a debate, and most would probably take Curry over him tbh.

[Legends66NBA7]

There was an article on ESPN saying Paul was better than Magic. Considering how much influence ESPN has on people's opinions, I can see why people think so highly on Paul as well getting a lot of criticism.

That said, he's still a Top 10 PG easily in my book. There aren't many PG's out there better than him.

[Heavincent]

Alot of players are more accomplished than him. Depends on how much emphasis you put on it. Kawhi Leonard is more accomplished than him and he's another all star level player. Curry is also more accomplished than Oscar Robertson and Charles Barkley as well.

But Curry's stats are just as good, and his impact on the game is actually better imo. He has surpassed Paul on a historical level, barring an injury.

Accolades aren't everything, but you would think the "best PG since Magic" would have something to his name other than all star appearances. No MVP's, no deep playoff runs, etc. He's obviously a better player than Melo, but his resume is basically the same...I would expect more given the hype.

[warriorfan]

LBJ and CP3 stans are cut from the same cloth

[Young X]

Scoring one field goal and having no assists isn't getting it done, and not leading a team against an opponent without its best player, in an elimination game, certainly qualifies as a meltdown.

That is vintage LeBron stuff right there...
You need your teammates to make the scoring opportunities you give them to get assists. Blake literally missed every look CP gave him.

And I don't care what the rest of the team did, he can only control what he can control. None of Houston's 40 points were because because of CP, his man didn't score once.

He deserves criticism for not shooting well enough and only scoring 6 pts on 1-5 shooting though.

He ended up with 31/11/7 on 10-19 shooting.

In no way did he meltdown, he had a bad quarter where he didn't take over the game which he's done before. What he did against OKC in game 5 was a meltdown.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You need your teammates to make the scoring opportunities you give them to get assists. Blake literally missed every look CP gave him.

And I don't care what the rest of the team did, he can only control what he can control. None of Houston's 40 points were because because of CP, his man didn't score once.

He deserves criticism for not shooting well enough and only scoring 6 pts on 1-5 shooting though.

He ended up with 31/11/7 on 10-19 shooting.

In no way did he meltdown, he had a bad quarter where he didn't take over the game which he's done before. What he did against OKC in game 5 was a meltdown.

Whatever the case, he played like shit in the biggest quarter of his career. As did Blake. Had they even played remotely average that comeback is water under the bridge - they meet GSW who you could actually claim had more depth.

CP will need to win a handful of chips to be put in the same breath with Magic. Period.

[Young X]

Whatever the case, he played like shit in the biggest quarter of his career. As did Blake. Had they even played remotely average that comeback is water under the bridge - they meet GSW who you could actually claim had more depth.

CP will need to win a handful of chips to be put in the same breath with Magic. Period.Blake was honestly a huge reason for that collapse. He went scoreless on 0-5 shooting and all of his attempts were good looks that CP gave him. He missed an easy fingeroll, got blocked like 3 times at the basket and played extremely timid. His defense was all time terrible, pretty much all of Smith's points were directly because of his ridiculously lazy defense. If you watch that game again you'll be amazed at his lack of effort. Then you add Crawford's normal chucking and CP missing jumpers he normally makes and you have a terrible collapse.

There's nothing CP can do to be mentioned in that breath, he's not a GOAT level talent like that. Maybe before his knee injuries but not now. Nobody seriously thinks he's on that level.

[Doranku]

CP3's playoff run this year epitomizes everything that drives me crazy about the guy. One second, he's destroying the defending champion Spurs. Then, next thing you know his team blows a 3-1 lead to a bunch of f*cking clowns.

He could be an all-time great. A legend. I really believe that. But the dude is Jekyll and Hyde out there on the court. One night you get super aggressive CP3 who completely controls the tempo of the game and runs the offense beautifully. Next night you get passive CP3 who is content with dumping the ball off to BG and standing around on the perimeter while his team flounders.

[ArbitraryWater]

CP3's playoff run this year epitomizes everything that drives me crazy about the guy. One second, he's destroying the defending champion Spurs. Then, next thing you know his team blows a 3-1 lead to a bunch of f*cking clowns.

He could be an all-time great. A legend. I really believe that. But the dude is Jekyll and Hyde out there on the court. One night you get super aggressive CP3 who completely controls the tempo of the game and runs the offense beautifully. Next night you get passive CP3 who is content with dumping the ball off to BG and standing around on the perimeter while his team flounders.

Very much this... that first round was so epic. Felt like it was destiny for CP3 :(

And really, he had very few off games... even against HOU. He was the best in game 6 AND SEVEN, all it took was an off quarter, horrible defense by his teammates and Blake going absolutely SHOOK after I thought he layed those demons to rest in the Spurs series.
And then, the refs stopped their final game 7 comeback attempt.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Blake was honestly a huge reason for that collapse. He went scoreless on 0-5 shooting and all of his attempts were good looks that CP gave him. He missed an easy fingeroll, got blocked like 3 times at the basket and played extremely timid. His defense was all time terrible, pretty much all of Smith's points were directly because of his ridiculously lazy defense. If you watch that game again you'll be amazed at his lack of effort. Then you add Crawford's normal chucking and CP missing jumpers he normally makes and you have a terrible collapse.

There's nothing CP can do to be mentioned in that breath, he's not a GOAT level talent like that. Maybe before his knee injuries but not now. Nobody seriously thinks he's on that level.

Blake was absolutely horrific. I remember Barkley and Kenny ****ing roasting him after the game. :oldlol:

With regards to the CP and Magic comparison, I actually think their skillsets are close. They bring different things to the table, but both are probably the purest to play at the position. What REALLY separates them are intangibles, specifically clutch performances in the playoffs. Magic and Mike are 2 of THE greatest postseason players...ever

[Jacks3]

A few pages back Jacks3 claimed that after winning a title, people would put him up there w/ Magic because of his stats. Is that not bullshit?





I said that some people will absolutely start talking about him as the GOAT PG because his advanced stats are better than any PG in history.

That's if he gets a ring as the best player. That's the only thing he's missing.

You'll see a lot of that retroactive revisionist shit. Like I said, winning bias plays a big role.

[ROCSteady]

Zero Depth?? Look at the Lakers in 10' playoffs the year they won the title, this was our depth off the bench: Lamar Odom 8ppg, Shannon Brown 4ppg,.:oldlol:

Vs Clippers: Crawford 12ppg, Rivers 8ppg had some outstanding games in the Houston Series, his ppg were higher for than round because he got to play.

This is truth, no more excuses for CP3...Today is the day he and his fans face the truth, he's not a winner.


:applause:

Great points.

Paul is a bish, the Clippers are foold gold. The real team has banners


:bowdown:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Curry is also more accomplished than Oscar Robertson and Charles Barkley as well.

You can say Chuck due to the ring and all but Oscar also won a title, also was MVP once, has easily more all-nba 1st team selections, much more times all-star, won ROY, assists leader 6x...

[GoSpursGo1984]

There was an article on ESPN saying Paul was better than Magic. Considering how much influence ESPN has on people's opinions, I can see why people think so highly on Paul as well getting a lot of criticism.

That said, he's still a Top 10 PG easily in my book. There aren't many PG's out there better than him.

I am not sure you can be a top ten in your postion without accomplishing something first if Paul why not Kevin Johnson or Tim Hardaway?

[catch24]

Man advanced stats are the worst. Most of them are team stats anyway.

Ain't nobody better than Magic at the PG spot, especially Chris Paul.

[RRR3]

Man advanced stats are the worst. Most of them are team stats anyway.

Ain't nobody better than Magic at the PG spot, especially Chris Paul.
Magic has amazing advanced stats.

[Legends66NBA7]

I am not sure you can be a top ten in your postion without accomplishing something first if Paul why not Kevin Johnson or Tim Hardaway?

Accomplishing specifically what exactly ?

MVP's, ALL-NBA, etc... ? Or rings as "the man" ? Or overall ?

[RRR3]

Accomplishing specifically what exactly ?

MVP's, ALL-NBA, etc... ? Or rings as "the man" ? Or overall ?
Rangz.

I'm sure the poster you're responding to will feed you a bunch of vague bullshit and emotionally based arguments but whether he will admit it or not his argument boils to down to that in reality.

[Legends66NBA7]

Rangz.

I'm sure the poster you're responding to will feed you a bunch of vague bullshit and emotionally based arguments but whether he will admit it or not his argument boils to down to that in reality.

Yeah, I know.

Which is why I don't see how anyone can say guys like Payton and Kidd can be above him when they won rings as role players... while Stockton and Nash never won rings at all. They aren't "winners" (I count international and college level for players when they get to the hall) either, so are they thay above Paul ?

[RRR3]

Yeah, I know.

Which is why I don't see how anyone can say guys like Payton and Kidd can be above him when they won rings as role players... while Stockton and Nash never won rings at all. They aren't "winners" (I count international and college level for players when they get to the hall) either, so are they thay above Paul ?
The answer you will get is either "they got past the second round" or some inane babble a la Skip Bayless.

[RidonKs]

Paul has had David West and Tyson Chandler and JJ Reddick... 100% of his other teammates however have been losers.
this guy just called blake griffin a loser... are we sure we agree?

furthermore, what can we say about glen big mother fcking baby davis?

[DMAVS41]

No but if he's that good shouldn't he have made at least one with the amazing level of talent he's played with? His teams have been more talented than Billups yet he still hasn't come close to winning a championship.

If we're being consistent, there's no way CP3 should be ranked over guys like Billups, Parker. Those guys were all stars who were huge parts of championship teams. CP3 on the other hand hasn't won anything, all he basically has is stats. :confusedshrug:

If who is being consistent?

I certainly don't rank players in a way that would have Billups or Parker over Paul...and that is consistent with my rankings.

I do think Paul is over-rated, but he's incredibly under-rated if we all can't agree he's a better player than Billups.

[pastis]

Paul has had David West and Tyson Chandler and JJ Reddick... 100% of his other teammates however have been losers.

you mean Peja? hitting 14-16 ppg over his years in NO and shooting between 38-44% from three

pretty solid team.
and since he is in LA is teams were and are stacked

[Young X]

If who is being consistent?

I certainly don't rank players in a way that would have Billups or Parker over Paul...and that is consistent with my rankings.

I do think Paul is over-rated, but he's incredibly under-rated if we all can't agree he's a better player than Billups.My posts were directed at the OP and the arguments usually used against CP3. If it's just about being a "winner" then ALOT of players of similar all star status should be seen as greater than him.

And why do you think CP is overrated? Be specific, I'm curious.

[branslowski]

My posts were directed at the OP and the arguments usually used against CP3. If it's just about being a "winner" then ALOT of players of similar all star status should be seen as greater than him.

And why do you think CP is overrated? Be specific, I'm curious.

I didn't say All-Time Rankings were just about winning, because then Bill Russell would be GOAT.:facepalm

My argument is just the cold truth that CP3 wont lead a team to a title because he doesn't have that will to win....I never said Billups was a better pure All-Round player than CP3.:facepalm

[Young X]

But Billups is a winner and has the will to win that CP doesn't have right? You even said he would lead this Clipper team to the conference finals at least once. If you feel like that, then why don't you consider him to be a better player? :lol

[DMAVS41]

But Billups is a winner and has the will to win that CP doesn't have right? You even said he would lead this Clipper team to the conference finals at least once. If you feel like that, then why don't you consider him to be a better player? :lol


Ahhh...I see.

Yes, there would be a contradiction if someone was saying this.

To answer your question as quickly as possible you asked me. It would be basically because point guard defense is over-rated and because Paul is a good defender...I think people over-rate that ability as I don't think it makes a huge impact like a lot of people do.

I also think Paul is too passive at times in the playoffs and his efficiency is a tad inflated because he doesn't take the frequent and tough shots often needed to win in the playoffs.

I also think there is something to be said for a player being able to have a huge impact on offense off the ball. I feel like this often gets overlooked and is one reason I think Paul fans always complain about his help.

Someone earlier mentioned that Paul would have won the title with the Warriors. Perhaps, but that Warriors team is simply going to be much better with Curry than with Paul....and I could totally see Paul fans bitching about Bogut, Draymond Green, Klay, and Barnes constantly....because those guys simply wouldn't be put in the kind of positions they are with Curry.

Still think Paul is one of the best points ever, but he's not as good as his numbers indicate imo.

[Jailblazers7]

LOL at the debate in this thread and people saying "Put Crawford in Iggy's spot in the Finals and he would score 40 per game." The point is that Crawford wouldn't be on the ****ing court at all.

[Young X]

Ahhh...I see.

Yes, there would be a contradiction if someone was saying this.

To answer your question as quickly as possible you asked me. It would be basically because point guard defense is over-rated and because Paul is a good defender...I think people over-rate that ability as I don't think it makes a huge impact like a lot of people do.

I also think Paul is too passive at times in the playoffs and his efficiency is a tad inflated because he doesn't take the frequent and tough shots often needed to win in the playoffs.

I also think there is something to be said for a player being able to have a huge impact on offense off the ball. I feel like this often gets overlooked and is one reason I think Paul fans always complain about his help.

Someone earlier mentioned that Paul would have won the title with the Warriors. Perhaps, but that Warriors team is simply going to be much better with Curry than with Paul....and I could totally see Paul fans bitching about Bogut, Draymond Green, Klay, and Barnes constantly....because those guys simply wouldn't be put in the kind of positions they are with Curry.

Still think Paul is one of the best points ever, but he's not as good as his numbers indicate imo.Seems like you feel the PG position itself is overrated. Correct?

Other than sometimes deferring too much I don't have any criticisms of him. He's supposed to run his teams offense, score, find his team good looks, take care of the ball and defend which he does better than most in league history. With him on the court his teams have been the best offense over the last 5 seasons and his teams are elite at defending opposing PG's. I don't know what more you can ask from him.

His teams problems are things he has limited control over - wing/frontcourt defense and bench play. They get killed especially in the playoffs when he leaves the floor and they can't get stops late in games. They let someone like Josh Smith kill them in a crucial game and basically end their season.

The early playoff exits aren't a big deal to me. Going into the playoffs, pretty much all of his teams weren't expected to go past the 2nd round and they ran into teams just as good if not better. Not saying he doesn't deserve any criticism for it but I don't think it should make or break whether he goes down as a great player.

[branslowski]

But Billups is a winner and has the will to win that CP doesn't have right? You even said he would lead this Clipper team to the conference finals at least once. If you feel like that, then why don't you consider him to be a better player? :lol

:biggums: What are you not getting?

Just because Billups would get the Clippers to the Finals and Cp3 can't doesn't have to mean Billups is better...

Example: Jeff Teague is a better player than Derek Fisher, But honestly I'd rather have Fisher on the Lakers than Teague...I highly doubt the Lakers would have done better with Teague instead of Fisher because Fisher hit some big shots for us, some clutch shots and he had that will. This is no "contridiction", it's f*cking obvious what Iam saying.

And once again, your're completely off of the point of the thread...I'm not knocking CP3 down in rankings, nor Am I saying This player>>>>CP3, my point is dudes just not a winner and capable of leading a team to a title, point blank period. So this "blah blah Billups" sh!t in hignsight is completely irrelevent and you're just leaching on to a latex Parachute hooked to a dread at this point..

[DMAVS41]

Seems like you feel the PG position itself is overrated. Correct?

Other than sometimes deferring too much I don't have any criticisms of him. He's supposed to run his teams offense, score, find his team good looks, take care of the ball and defend which he does better than most in league history. With him on the court his teams have been the best offense over the last 5 seasons and his teams are elite at defending opposing PG's. I don't know what more you can ask from him.

His teams problems are things he has limited control over - wing/frontcourt defense and bench play. They get killed especially in the playoffs when he leaves the floor and they can't get stops late in games. They let someone like Josh Smith kill them in a crucial game and basically end their season.

The early playoff exits aren't a big deal to me. Going into the playoffs, pretty much all of his teams weren't expected to go past the 2nd round and they ran into teams just as good if not better. Not saying he doesn't deserve any criticism for it but I don't think it should make or break whether he goes down as a great player.

Yes...the point position can be extremely over-rated in impact at times, but not always. Magic is in my top 3 all time and Curry's impact is generally way under-rated.

I agree with everything you say, but I also think there are some issues with Paul that people gloss over.

Like your description of game 6. "they let Josh Smith kill them"...yea, that is accurate, but where the **** was Paul? Part of being an all time great player is coming in and stopping a run...making a big shot/play...etc.

The thing with Paul...is that he hasn't sustained that since he got championship caliber teams.

Where is his finals run? Where is his consistent dominance?

Everyone has meltdowns and chokes...even the best ever...the difference with Paul is that he hasn't had a sustained greatness throughout a playoffs before.

Part of that is circumstances...and part of that is some flaws in his game...and other part is him simply wetting the bed in two huge moments in back to back playoffs.

I just can't get behind the "help" argument here when it took two all time bad collapses these last two playoffs for the Clippers to get eliminated.

If the Clippers were just getting beat in normal fashion and it looked like they just weren't good enough..that would be one thing. But that isn't what has happened these last 2 years.

And because we don't have much other evidence to off of...those things really matter.

[Kvnzhangyay]

I love Chris Paul and all...

but I'm sorry he just hasn't proved to me that he's a winner yet :confusedshrug:

It's not too late to change everyone's views though.

[Young X]

:biggums: What are you not getting?

Just because Billups would get the Clippers to the Finals and Cp3 can't doesn't have to mean Billups is better...So you're saying Chauncey would get this Clippers team to the finals. Basically saying he would have a much higher level of impact and elevate them from a really good team to a great team (since you think they would get past the Warriors who were a truly great team). If this is the case, how is he not...the...better...player? :lol


Yes...the point position can be extremely over-rated in impact at times, but not always. Magic is in my top 3 all time and Curry's impact is generally way under-rated.

I agree with everything you say, but I also think there are some issues with Paul that people gloss over.

Like your description of game 6. "they let Josh Smith kill them"...yea, that is accurate, but where the **** was Paul? Part of being an all time great player is coming in and stopping a run...making a big shot/play...etc.

The thing with Paul...is that he hasn't sustained that since he got championship caliber teams.

Where is his finals run? Where is his consistent dominance?What you're saying about that game 6 is the only thing I have a problem with him about. At times he puts too much trust into his teammates instead of taking over and that's why I said he deserves at least a little bit of criticism.

And in order to go on finals runs and have "consistent dominance" you need to be on teams that can realistically get there. Besides maybe the '08 Hornets none of his teams were good enough to get to the finals unless they overachieved big time, there was always 1 or 2 teams clearly on another level such as...

'15 Warriors
'12-'14 Spurs
'11 Lakers/Mavs/Thunder
'09 Lakers/Nuggets

^ Nobody seriously thought any of Paul's teams were good enough to get past those teams. Those are REAL championship caliber teams relative to their competition. The '09 & '11 Hornets and '12-15 Clippers ranged from 3rd seed to 7th seed. They would've had to win 2 or 3 series on the road beating a clearly superior team on the way just to get to the finals. Besides the '95 Rockets, what team has ever done that?

[ArbitraryWater]

cant...stop...contradicting :lol

says Billups would have more success with equal circumstances, calls him inferior.


You're dumb as shit my dude.

brans, answer this about your retarded logic.,.

says a player would draw better results with same circumstances, calls that player inferior...................

like I said, you're lost.

[DMAVS41]

So you're saying Chauncey would get this Clippers team to the finals. Basically saying he would have a much higher level of impact and elevate them from a really good team to a great team (since you think they would get past the Warriors who were a truly great team). If this is the case, how is he not...the...better...player? :lol

What you're saying about that game 6 is the only thing I have a problem with him about. At times he puts too much trust into his teammates instead of taking over and that's why I said he deserves at least a little bit of criticism.

And in order to go on finals runs and have "consistent dominance" you need to be on teams that can realistically get there. Besides maybe the '08 Hornets none of his teams were good enough to get to the finals unless they overachieved big time, there was always 1 or 2 teams clearly on another level such as...

'15 Warriors
'12-'14 Spurs
'11 Lakers/Mavs/Thunder
'09 Lakers/Nuggets

^ Nobody seriously thought any of Paul's teams were good enough to get past those teams. Those are REAL championship caliber teams relative to their competition. The '09 & '11 Hornets and '12-15 Clippers ranged from 3rd seed to 7th seed. They would've had to win 2 or 3 series on the road beating a clearly superior team on the way just to get to the finals. Besides the '95 Rockets, what team has ever done that?


I think you missed my point. I'm saying because we don't have a deep run from Paul in the playoffs combined with the fact that the last team seasons with his best teams ever (clearly title contenders if Paul is as good as most say)...he and his teams have had 2 epic collapses.

So where do you go from there? I mean...part of being a great basketball is being able to get your team through games/series like that. It's actually a basketball skill to be able to judge the flow of a game and adjust how you play in order to give your team the best chance to win. This is something Paul is good at, but not great at imo.

I'm not claiming he should have been making the finals his entire career.

I do think, however, it's fair game to criticize him for never making it out of the damn 2nd round his entire career.

If other great players never made it out of the 2nd round they'd be hammered....and Paul rightfully is...especially as the last 2 years his teams have been more than good enough and under his leadership they choked. Back to back.

So....not like there is a ton of evidence floating around that all Paul needs is a championship caliber coach and roster. He's had that the last 2 years and he's led/participated in two quite awful collapses.

So what does he have to hang his hat on? We all agree he's a great player...this is about how great.

And what players do on the court in the biggest games of their careers is a reflection of how good at basketball they are. And doing it for just a series isn't enough.

[SwishSquared]

I'm veering off track with where the discussion is going here, but one way I evaluate careers is looking at when I expected a team to win. Some teams are better, on paper anyway, and it's expected for the other team to lose.

@ DMAVS41: Did you think the Clippers would win that series before it started vs. OKC last year? I honestly picked OKC in 6 and when it looked like Clips would take Game 5, I thought it would have been nice for the LAC team and CP3's personal legacies. I thought the ~47 second Game 5 choke job by CP3 was fluky and so weird that long-term it would be semi-forgotten with future successes.

I had much more issue with this year's performance vs. Houston. I get the excuse of them being worn down from the bad bench and exhausting themselves vs. San Antonio, but I thought the letdown this year was much worse. I think the 2013-2014 squad had suitable perimeter depth, in terms of NBA bodies, but was weak defensively on the wing (Dudley was hurt) and the big man rotation was bad.

The bench Doc put together this past season was awful, but that's not an excuse for losing to Houston. Of all his playoff missteps, this year is the biggest blemish on CP3's resume. Dude should have ignored BG and his teammates in Game 6 to close it out. He needs sustained excellence in the playoffs, so basically he needs to string together a conference final run where he's awesome in the first and second rounds, and not chopped liver in the conference finals.

CP3 has never had a multi-year run of a deep enough team with a good coach + roster continuity. However, he should have made the WCF either of the past 2 years and didn't. That's a big mark on his resume and legacy. The Rockets series this year was the first one his team lost that I thought they would win. I really do think that, if that's some credit to him.

He's not a GOAT player impact wise, but doesn't mean he's not one of the greatest PGs ever. If he wins 1 ring as a second option, I think a lot of the criticism goes away. Doubt that happens, though.

[Young X]

Clippers are not a championship level roster. They have a championship level core offensively in CP3, Blake, DJ, and Redick but their bench is awful and they don't play the level of defense needed to win a championship. They've been really, really good but their ceiling for the last 2 seasons has been the conference finals. No team has won a championship playing the inconsistent defense that the Clippers have played.

If they were that good, he should be allowed to have a bad game or bad moment and still win a series.

He shouldn't have to hit a series winning shot on a bad hamstring to get past the 1st round of the playoffs.

He should be allowed to sit on the bench and not have his team let opponents go on 12-2 runs.

Outside of his game 5 in OKC he didn't have 1 bad game against the Thunder or the Rockets. Actually in his last 33 playoff games he's had at most 6 bad performances total. He consistently plays at a high level and puts his teams in great positions to win ball games against elite teams. If they were true championship level teams they would be able to help him like one would.

[DMAVS41]

Clippers are not a championship level roster. They have a championship level core offensively in CP3, Blake, DJ, and Redick but their bench is awful and they don't play the level of defense needed to win a championship. They've been really, really good but their ceiling for the last 2 seasons has been the conference finals. No team has won a championship playing the inconsistent defense that the Clippers have played.

If they were that good, he should be allowed to have a bad game or bad moment and still win a series.

He shouldn't have to hit a series winning shot on a bad hamstring to get past the 1st round of the playoffs.

He should be allowed to sit on the bench and not have his team let opponents go on 12-2 runs.

Outside of his game 5 in OKC he didn't have 1 bad game against the Thunder or the Rockets. Actually in his last 33 playoff games he's had at most 6 bad performances total. He consistently plays at a high level and puts his teams in great positions to win ball games against elite teams. If they were true championship level teams they would be able to help him like one would.

So were the 11 Mavs a championship roster?

[DMAVS41]

I'm veering off track with where the discussion is going here, but one way I evaluate careers is looking at when I expected a team to win. Some teams are better, on paper anyway, and it's expected for the other team to lose.

@ DMAVS41: Did you think the Clippers would win that series before it started vs. OKC last year? I honestly picked OKC in 6 and when it looked like Clips would take Game 5, I thought it would have been nice for the LAC team and CP3's personal legacies. I thought the ~47 second Game 5 choke job by CP3 was fluky and so weird that long-term it would be semi-forgotten with future successes.

I had much more issue with this year's performance vs. Houston. I get the excuse of them being worn down from the bad bench and exhausting themselves vs. San Antonio, but I thought the letdown this year was much worse. I think the 2013-2014 squad had suitable perimeter depth, in terms of NBA bodies, but was weak defensively on the wing (Dudley was hurt) and the big man rotation was bad.

The bench Doc put together this past season was awful, but that's not an excuse for losing to Houston. Of all his playoff missteps, this year is the biggest blemish on CP3's resume. Dude should have ignored BG and his teammates in Game 6 to close it out. He needs sustained excellence in the playoffs, so basically he needs to string together a conference final run where he's awesome in the first and second rounds, and not chopped liver in the conference finals.

CP3 has never had a multi-year run of a deep enough team with a good coach + roster continuity. However, he should have made the WCF either of the past 2 years and didn't. That's a big mark on his resume and legacy. The Rockets series this year was the first one his team lost that I thought they would win. I really do think that, if that's some credit to him.

He's not a GOAT player impact wise, but doesn't mean he's not one of the greatest PGs ever. If he wins 1 ring as a second option, I think a lot of the criticism goes away. Doubt that happens, though.


I agree with everything you say here broadly.

As for the Clippers? I thought they would lose to the Thunder in 14 and I thought they would beat the Rockets in 15.

[KungFuJoe]

The problem is not CP3.

It's the team as a whole and, believe it or not, griffin.

The team lacks depth. They struggled to score when Crawford was rendered useless and no one other than CP3 could score consistently. Matt Barnes doesn't even belong in the league. And DJ can't make a free throw or anything other than a spoonfed dunk.

Then there's Griffin. The superstar. Arguably bigger than CP3. With zero killer instinct and who can't handle the pressure. He was, by far, the biggest choker when the rockets made that unbelievable comeback. He didn't even want the ball in his hands. And when he did get it he chucked up shots that didn't even hit rim just looking to get the cheap foul. And that's because he has no reliable go to move. No real post game. He's all hustle and transition and his midrange...but that midrange is gone when it's crunch time because he loses confidence in it.

[SwishSquared]

So were the 11 Mavs a championship roster?This wasn't directed @ me, but I didn't think so. During the home stretch run of the RS that year I thought the Mavs were likely a 2nd round exit.

I didn't think the Clippers have had a championship roster, either, if I'm honest. As Young X said, their top few guys are a great nucleus, but the role players aren't enough. A healthy Dudley in 2013-2014 and a legit 3rd big man that year? That's a little closer to what we expect from a real title contender. Anyways, this is a mediocre defensive team. You need to play top 10 level defense in the playoffs to win a title nearly any year.

They've had a flawed roster and Doc's the wrong guy to fill in the gaps and maximize each players' abilities.

I think that general question though does undervalue the worth of a coach like Carlisle, though. That dude's a wizard in the playoffs most of the time. It's a players' & make/miss league, but I think Rick gets more out of scrap heap guys than just about any coach in the league. Fwiw I think GM Doc is Billy King-bad and Coach Doc is overrated. Thinking about, I don't even think CP3's overrated anymore. He seems rated properly.

Maybe my own opinions are clouding my judgement too much.


My bad for interjecting...

[clipps]

DJ - (FreeAgent) - Cole Aldrich
Griffin - (Josh Smith or Darrel Arthur) - Big Baby
Pierce - Johnson - Dawson
JJ - Lance - Crawford*
Paul - Rivers - (Freeagent)

*Crawford might get traded for some front court size.

That looks like a pretty stacked roster (especially if whatever's in parentheses becomes fulfilled). As much as I'm glad Chris Paul is on the team and turned the Clippers into a relevant 50 win team since his arrival, if the Clippers can't get passed the 2nd round with this roster again, the Clippers need to trade him next Summer.

[DMAVS41]

This wasn't directed @ me, but I didn't think so. During the home stretch run of the RS that year I thought the Mavs were likely a 2nd round exit.

I didn't think the Clippers have had a championship roster, either, if I'm honest. As Young X said, their top few guys are a great nucleus, but the role players aren't enough. A healthy Dudley in 2013-2014 and a legit 3rd big man that year? That's a little closer to what we expect from a real title contender. Anyways, this is a mediocre defensive team. You need to play top 10 level defense in the playoffs to win a title nearly any year.

They've had a flawed roster and Doc's the wrong guy to fill in the gaps and maximize each players' abilities.

I think that general question though does undervalue the worth of a coach like Carlisle, though. That dude's a wizard in the playoffs most of the time. It's a players' & make/miss league, but I think Rick gets more out of scrap heap guys than just about any coach in the league. Fwiw I think GM Doc is Billy King-bad and Coach Doc is overrated. Thinking about, I don't even think CP3's overrated anymore. He seems rated properly.

Maybe my own opinions are clouding my judgement too much.


My bad for interjecting...

No, that's cool...that is my point.

We (me included) put me limits on teams so often. I'll start saying the Clippers can't win when they get thoroughly outplayed be somebody.

That just hasn't happened the last 2 years...they've looked as good or better than everyone they'd played in the playoffs.

[SwishSquared]

No, that's cool...that is my point.

We (me included) put me limits on teams so often. I'll start saying the Clippers can't win when they get thoroughly outplayed be somebody.

That just hasn't happened the last 2 years...they've looked as good or better than everyone they'd played in the playoffs.That's a valid point, for sure. I guess I've put a ceiling on them every year for one reason or another since CP3 arrived (whether Blake/DJ too inexperienced, bad bench, w/e) and maybe I shouldn't have, considering your reasoning.

I think their top 4 pieces execute so well offensively, even if DJ's ineffective outside the restricted area, and they defend just "meh" enough that they are competitive.

But their lack of a real perimeter stopper, CP3/BG playing too passive at the worst times, Doc's bad in-game adjustments, and lack of 3 reliably useful & complementary bench players allow playoff opponents to have just enough of an edge to beat the Clips. Any edge matters that time of year, so maybe that's their undoing.

I thought BG would be a straight killer this year after seeing glimpses last postseason. He's got a lot of growing up to do as well if this team is going anywhere beyond the 2nd round. He's got to do it in the fourth quarters consistently.

[DMAVS41]

That's a valid point, for sure. I guess I've put a ceiling on them every year for one reason or another since CP3 arrived (whether Blake/DJ too inexperienced, bad bench, w/e) and maybe I shouldn't have, considering your reasoning.

I think their top 4 pieces execute so well offensively, even if DJ's ineffective outside the restricted area, and they defend just "meh" enough that they are competitive.

But their lack of a real perimeter stopper, CP3/BG playing too passive at the worst times, Doc's bad in-game adjustments, and lack of 3 reliably useful & complementary bench players allow playoff opponents to have just enough of an edge to beat the Clips. Any edge matters that time of year, so maybe that's their undoing.

I thought BG would be a straight killer this year after seeing glimpses last postseason. He's got a lot of growing up to do as well if this team is going anywhere beyond the 2nd round. He's got to do it in the fourth quarters consistently.


Yea, no doubt they have flaws...and they've never been the title favorite. I just think it's fair to use the help excuse when it's warranted and not fair when it isn't.

I don't think Paul lost in the playoffs the last 2 years because of his help the way people act like he did...if that makes sense. Obviously his "help" played a role, but I think you get what I mean.

I brought it up earlier and it's not the best example because of fit/role, but I really can envision a scenario in which Paul played in place of Curry on the Warriors...and they don't win it all....and it would just be more CP3 fans claiming he didn't have enough help.

They'd talk about Kerr being a rookie coach....talk about Klay not showing up every night. How Draymond Green and Bogut can't create their own shot...how Harrison Barnes sucks...etc.

I'm not saying they would lose for sure or something, but I could just see that team being picked apart by CP3 defenders.

So like I always say...I have no clue if he's over-rated or under-rated overall until someone rates him. If there is someone legit saying he's not better than Billups...he's crazy under-rated. If you have someone saying he's on the tier of some of the true franchise/championship first options? Nah...he hasn't proved close to enough in his career to date for that.

I think most would agree with the above...like I said before...some of this comes down to people not being able to get behind the point guard position not being as impactful as other positions on the whole. Or at least the pg position as traditionally played.

[Young X]

I brought it up earlier and it's not the best example because of fit/role, but I really can envision a scenario in which Paul played in place of Curry on the Warriors...and they don't win it all....and it would just be more CP3 fans claiming he didn't have enough help.

They'd talk about Kerr being a rookie coach....talk about Klay not showing up every night. How Draymond Green and Bogut can't create their own shot...how Harrison Barnes sucks...etc.

I'm not saying they would lose for sure or something, but I could just see that team being picked apart by CP3 defenders.This would never happen since the Warriors were the #1 defense (way better than any of Paul's teams defensively) and had a bench that could actually hold onto leads when their stars sat. Warriors actually played better offensively with Curry on the bench in the playoffs.

"Help" isn't just offensive talent.

I don't know how many more times it needs to be said that the Clippers even with Barnes and Crawford sucking were fine offensively. They were the best offensive team all season. Their problems were team defense and bench play - 2 things CP3 had little to do with.

[warriorfan]

This would never happen since the Warriors were the #1 defense (way better than any of Paul's teams defensively) and had a bench that could actually hold onto leads when their stars sat. Warriors actually played better offensively with Curry on the bench in the playoffs.

"Help" isn't just offensive talent.

I don't know how many more times it needs to be said that the Clippers even with Barnes and Crawford sucking were fine offensively. They were the best offensive team all season. Their problems were team defense and bench play - 2 things CP3 had little to do with.

So Chris Paul doesn't impact the game through defense, doesn't impact games through scoring.

So he impacts the game by making good passes? :confusedshrug:

[Young X]

So Chris Paul doesn't impact the game through defense, doesn't impact games through scoring.

So he impacts the game by making good passes? :confusedshrug:LAC has been elite at defending opposing PG's since CP has got there. They were better than the Warriors at it this season. Difference is they struggled with SG's-PF's unlike the Warriors who had Thompson, Iggy, Green (obviously much better defenders than Redick, Barnes and Blake).

They also had a strong bench while the Clippers had maybe the worst in the league.

Look at each teams offense with CP3 and Curry on the court:

Clippers: 118.3 ORtg
Warriors: 116.6 ORtg

In the playoffs...

Clippers: 110.4 ORtg
Warriors: 107.8 ORtg

Like I said the difference in success between each team was defense and bench play. People forget about the Warriors struggling against Memphis and Cleveland because they still managed to win ball games with their defense which is something the Clippers couldn't do.