Lebron won 60+ in 2009 and 2010 RS.. Why couldn't he win in playoffs?

[3ball]

?? ??????

[Kvnzhangyay]

Leastern conference

[ShawkFactory]

Probably the same reasons as the last 3 times you've brought this up.

[imnew09]

The East has always been weak.

See the Hawks ... 60+ wins and got swept ..

[Megabox!]

Fine here's the attention you wanted OP, apparently your parents aren't giving you enough of it

[Hittin_Shots]

Because his team scored less than his opposition in 4 games of a seven game series.

[3ball]

Leastern conference


the Leastern conference would HELP him win the East dumb****...

Lebron LOST in the Leastern conference in both 2009 and 2010, despite being the 1-seed.

[JohnMax]

http://i.imgur.com/4TchVdR.gif

[Kvnzhangyay]

jfc, how dumb are you?

the Leastern conference would HELP him win the East dumb****...

Lebron LOST in the Leastern conference in both 2009 and 2010, despite being the 1-seed.

it's unbelievable how dumb your post is

he won 60 games because he plays in the east u dumb**** :facepalm

you are honestly so stupid that you think other people are stupid because you can't think in a logical manner

it's like you call people stupid for running a mile to get healthy because running can break your leg

[3ball]

he won 60 games because he plays in the east u dumb****


But why did he lose in the Eastern Conference Playoffs after winning 60 in the regular season?

If he won so much in RS, why couldn't he win in the Eastern Conference Playoffs?

[LAZERUSS]

He left after 2010 and the Cavs fell to 19-63.

[Sakkreth]

But why did he lose in the Eastern Conference Playoffs after winning 60 in the regular season?

If he won so much in RS, why couldn't he win in the Eastern Conference Playoffs?

It's one team, not the whole conference he lost to... You are really fcking dumb. The same way Hawks lost to a single team, while rest of the conference sucked.

[Kvnzhangyay]

But why did he lose in the Eastern Conference Playoffs after winning 60 in the regular season?

If he won so much in RS, why couldn't he win in the Eastern Conference Playoffs?

Because regular season records don't matter?

If the hawks won so much in RS, why couldn't they win in the ECF? Why did the 93-94 bulls team almost win 60 games in the RS, but couldn't win in the playoffs? The list goes on and on

[3ball]

It's one team, not the whole conference he lost to... You are really fcking dumb. The same way Hawks lost to a single team, while rest of the conference sucked.
Why did he lose at all as the #1 seed though?

Why were the Cavs the best team in Eastern Conference for the regular season, but not in the playoffs?

[3ball]

Why did he lose at all as the #1 seed though?

Why were the Cavs the best team in Eastern Conference for the regular season, but not in the playoffs?
perfectly reasonable question

[3ball]

Because regular season records don't matter?

If the hawks won so much in RS, why couldn't they win in the ECF? Why did the 93-94 bulls team almost win 60 games in the RS, but couldn't win in the playoffs? The list goes on and on


So what you're saying is that teams frequently amass good regular season records, but it means nothing because the playoffs is what determines how good a team really is?

[Kvnzhangyay]

So what you're saying is that teams frequently amass good regular season records, but it means nothing because the playoffs is what determines how good a team really is?

definitely implied it

[3ball]

definitely implied it



Actually, you didn't imply it.. You said it:





Because regular season records don't matter?


So this means that when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994 but lost in the 2nd Round, we should base our assessment of the team's capability on their 2nd round defeat, and not the 55 wins.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Actually, you didn't imply it.. You said it:



So this means that when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994 but lost in the 2nd Round, we should base our assessment of the team's capability on their 2nd round defeat, and not the 55 wins.

Obviously...

why would anyone say differently? Although keep in mind that 55 win team was still really good, taking the ??Knicks if i recall correctly?? to 7 i believe

[LAZERUSS]

Actually, you didn't imply it.. You said it:



So this means that when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994 but lost in the 2nd Round, we should base our assessment of the team's capability on their 2nd round defeat, and not the 55 wins.


The '94 Bulls were an INJURY-PLAGUED team that would have easily won 60+ games had Grant and Pippen not missed a combined 23 games.

And had they had HCA, they likely would have repeated as champions.

As it was, they lost a close seven game series against a 56-26 Knicks team in the second round. BUT, Chicago won ALL THREE games on their home floor. Meanwhile, the Knicks lost a game seven to the 58-24 Rockets, by four points, in a series in which they outscored Houston.

Grant and Pippen...

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[LAZERUSS]

Obviously...

why would anyone say differently? Although keep in mind that 55 win team was still really good, taking the ??Knicks if i recall correctly?? to 7 i believe

They were a true championship caliber team.

Had Grant and Pippen not missed 23 games, they likely would have beaten the Knicks with HCA. Then, we know that they had dominated the Pacers in the regular season, going 4-1 against them. And, since the Knicks lost a game seven to the Rockets by four points, and on Houston's home floor...well, with HCA I don't see Chicago losing to the Rockets.

An eye-lash away from a Pippen-Grant 4-peat.

[Hey Yo]

1994 had 3 Bulls rep the all-star game (Pippen, Grant, B.J)

2009 Cavs had 2 AS. LBJ and last minute replacement, Mo
2010 Cavs had 1 AS, can ya guess who?

There's your answer.

[LAZERUSS]

1994 had 3 Bulls rep the all-star game (Pippen, Grant, B.J)

2009 Cavs had 2 AS. LBJ and last minute replacement, Mo
2010 Cavs had 1 AS, can ya guess who?

There's your answer.

Not only that, but they went from 61-21 with Lebron....to 19-63 withOUT Lebron the very next season.

James taking that cast of clowns to 66-16 and 62-21 records was truly remarkable.

Same thing this year, as well. Playing with the Three Stooges (Smith, Deli, and Shumpert), he single-handedly carried another band of mis-fits to a close six game series against a 67-15 Warrior team in the Finals.

[3ball]

Although keep in mind that 55 win team was still really good,


The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 without MJ.. That's not "really good".. This exposes your delusion because 2nd round is NOT "really good.".. Never has been.. never will be.

The Bulls fall from 3-peat to 2nd round is the biggest 1 season drop-off in history - you won't find another instance where the star left, and the team declined from 3-peat to 2nd Round.

People like to say 55 wins, but the 2nd Round exit trumps that.. That's the level the 1994 Bulls were on - 2nd Round.. Nothing more.

[LAZERUSS]

The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 without MJ.. That's not "really good".. This exposes your delusion because 2nd round is NOT "really good.".. Never has been.. never will be.

The Bulls fall from 3-peat to 2nd round is the biggest 1 season drop-off in history - you won't find another instance where the star left, and the team declined from 3-peat to 2nd Round.

People like to say 55 wins, but the 2nd Round exit trumps that.. That's the level the 1994 Bulls were on - 2nd Round.. Nothing more.

Not an average "second round team" either.


They were a true championship caliber team.

Had Grant and Pippen not missed 22 games, they likely would have had 60+ wins, and then beaten the Knicks with HCA. Then, we know that they had dominated the Pacers in the regular season, going 4-1 against them. And, since the Knicks lost a game seven to the Rockets by four points, and on Houston's home floor...well, with HCA I don't see Chicago losing to the Rockets.

An eye-lash away from a Pippen-Grant 4-peat.

[3ball]

they went from 61-21 with Lebron....to 19-63 withOUT Lebron the very next season.


The Cavs lost their entire starting 5 to injury and trades, not just Lebron - it's the biggest lie ever that the Cavs ONLY lost Lebron..

They lost Shaq, Zydrunas, Delonte, Mo Williams and Varejao.. But keep lying and saying it's just Lebron.. That's who you are.. A liar in these forums





James taking that cast of clowns to 66-16 and 62-21 records was truly remarkable.


It wasn't a cast of clowns.. Mo Williams averaged 16/5, while Antawn Jamison averaged 16/8... Both of those guys were better 2nd options then 2nd year Pippen's 14/6 in 1989.

Along with Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison, the Cavs had Varejao, Hickson, Shaq, Zydrunas, and Delonte.. Those are all good players and that's a deep team.. far from clowns.





Playing with the Three Stooges (Smith, Deli, and Shumpert)


These guys all played great the entire playoffs - JR Smith averaged 18/8 against Atlanta.. Pippen has done worse than that MANY times.

Also, Lebron needed 35 shots to get 35 points against single coverage isolations.. That's horrible..

The Cavs used their isolation gimmick with Lebron to control pace and win a couple games.. But once the gimmick was solved, it was curtains for the Cavs.. Once the adjustment had been made, the series was over, because Lebron-ball's rigid approach doesn't allow for counteradjustments.. If they played again right now, the Warriors sweep easily.





he single-handedly carried another band of mis-fits to a close six game series against a 67-15 Warrior team in the Finals.


In the Finals, Mosgov averaged 14/8 on 51% with 2 blocks... That's far better than Pippen's 15/8 on 34% in the 1996 Finals, or his 15/7 on 41% in the 1998 Finals..

That's right - the stats show Lebron had a better 2nd option in 2015 Finals than MJ had in 1996 and 1998 Finals.. This is hard to accept for new fans because they have this picture in their head of Scottie winning rings..

But in reality, the reason Pippen's horrific stats are virtually ignored by media and history, is because for many people that actually watched Scottie, it wasn't surprising to see Pippen be that anemic offensively.. We KNEW his offense was garbage - it was a running joke that he couldn't create his own shot or shoot for shit.
.

[Dresta]

2 morons competing for the title of biggest moron ^^^^^

[warriorfan]

LeBron has no excuses. 2009 and 2010 were his prime and in 2009 he was at his highest level while he was stomping the Magic but he shriveled in game 7. His boxscore doesn't tell the whole story, LeBron sucked at the start of the game and let Magic come out to a big lead and then LeBron padded INSANELY after the game was already way out of reach. That Orlando team was beatable as well, especially before the finals because their second best player Jameer Nelson was hurt.

[#number6ix#]

My guess would be lack of offensive diversity... Cavs would give lebron the ball and say make something happen... You can win regular season games like that but once you hit the playoffs and good teams have time to study every facet of your team it's easy to stop.

[Lebron23]

My guess would be lack of offensive diversity... Cavs would give lebron the ball and say make something happen... You can win regular season games like that but once you hit the playoffs and good teams have time to study every facet of your team it's easy to stop.


This. I'll rep you later. Mo Williams struggled in the playoffs. And the thing that really pissed me off in the 2010 NBA Playoffs was when Mike Brown benched Hickson in favor of Antawn Jamison.

[sdot_thadon]

If you watched, in 2009 the Orlando Magic happened. They were all wrong for the cavs that year. "The" Mo Williams, Lebron's 2nd option fell off during the playoff run, most notably against the magic. He struggled with his shot and ultimately disappeared and was pretty shook after getting a couple of nasty cuts on his eye.

Dwight Howard. Big Z was too slow to stay with him, Andy too weak to handle him. Opened up the gates for the Magic's 3pt shooting. Not to mention Brown kept wallace on Rashard for too long if I remember correctly and used Lebron as a help defender instead of using him to eliminate one of Lewis/Turk. Game over.

2010, Boston similar song and dance. Mo faded again, Shaq wasn't quite Shaq due to injury. Mike Brown let KG eviscerate Jamison and wouldn't make the adjustment whenever Hickson fared far better against Boston during reg. Season matchups. Oh then there was the strange passive game/elbow game/quit game or whatever you call it from Lebron.

[red1]

because the OP is a blatant, unrepentant homosexual

[sdot_thadon]

because the OP is a blatant, unrepentant homosexual
Yeah, that too.:oldlol:

[3ball]

If you watched, in 2009 the Orlando Magic happened. They were all wrong for the cavs that year.

2010, Boston similar song and dance. Mo faded again, Shaq wasn't quite Shaq due to injury.... then there was the strange passive game/elbow game/quit game or whatever you call it from Lebron.


Here's reality (not your pathetic excuses): Lebron-ball is real - the NBA's player-tracking data shows that Lebron and Harden are the only non-point guards that dominate the ball as much as point guards.. But in Lebron's case, there has never been a frontcourt player that dominates the ball like a point guard.. This is highly supoptimal and results in a very basic, predictable offensive attack, where Lebron "sets everyone up"..

The SF and PF positions are highly-assisted positions on virtually every other team in the league, whereas the point guard position is never highly assisted.. By turning a normally highly-assisted position (SF) into a low-assisted one (PG), Lebron reduces the playmaking capacity of his supporting cast.

Teammates cannot get an assist by passing Lebron the ball, because Lebron is playing like a point guard - point guards have low assisted rates because they dominate the ball, as opposed to playing off-ball and getting assisted like all other SF's.

Lebron-ball's simple approach of "let Lebron dominate the ball and set everyone up" doesn't work in the playoffs when teams are playing much harder and strategizing much more.. Such a simple approach that makes TEAMMATES predictable simply gets shut down at the higher level of the pplayoffs.. It's that simple..

Unfortunately, Lebron-ball is all Lebron has, because his game is unsophisticated.. Like Shaq's.. Shaq's game was similar in that it was rigid and unadjustable, while making the game and his teammates predictable... Not surprisingly, Shaq's game got figured out ALL the time, just like Lebron's: 1995 Magic were figured out along with 1997 Lakers, 1998 Lakers, 2004 Lakers.
.

[sdot_thadon]

Regurgitated shit that proves I didn't watch the series.
Again if you actually watched that year you'd know they attempted MO as the setup man in 09, he wasn't very good at it. You constantly cry about how much lebron has the ball in his hands but never acknowledge the basic root of it. He's the best option to make plays on every single team he's been on in his career, thus he generally is most capable and trusted to run the team. The results of it have him as a top 10 goat at the age of 30. Tell me what pg or player period he's had more fit to run the teams he's been on. I'll wait.

[Trollsmasher]

Could've gone a lot further if Williams did not choke both times

Imagine the Bulls winning with Pippen suddenly averaging 10ppg on shitty effciency and not playing any defense - impossible

[sd3035]

He's a choker like Wilt

[jzek]

Because he's the Peyton Manning of basketball. Only good in the regular season.

[Bandito]

He needed 2 true allstars?

[pastis]

is this thread a joke? compare Lebrons teams in 2009 and 2010 with fvcking Jordan teams. LOLOLOL

2010 no allstar besides him and 2009 was fvcking mo williams. haha mo williams.

[Hey Yo]

is this thread a joke? compare Lebrons teams in 2009 and 2010 with fvcking Jordan teams. LOLOLOL

2010 no allstar besides him and 2009 was fvcking mo williams. haha mo williams.
He was traded in 2011 and since then, he's played for 5 different teams in 5yrs before signing back on with Cleveland just days ago.

Doesn't that resume' scream he's an all-star caliber player!?!?

[sdot_thadon]

He was traded in 2011 and since then, he's played for 5 different teams in 5yrs before signing back on with Cleveland just days ago.

Doesn't that resume' scream he's an all-star caliber player!?!?
And to think he was a begging injury replacement for that allstar appearance.....

[outbreak]

Even when lebron went to Miami the howard magic matched up well against lebron ball.

[3ball]

Could've gone a lot further if Williams did not choke both times


Oh, you mean like Pippen from 1988-1990?

Why does Lebron get pass when his #2 option chokes, but MJ doesn't?





if Williams did not choke both times


Mo Williams averaged 18/5 against Orlando in 2009 ECF (Delonte 15/3, Zydrunas 10/9, Varejao 9/5 off bench).

In 2010 ECSF, Mo Williams averaged 14 ppg and 6 apg against Boston (Shaq 14/5, Jamison 12/7, Varejao 6/6 and Parker 8 ppg off bench).

This is FAR more help than MJ had in many series that he won..

But for Lebron, his suboptimal style prevents a team with sufficient talent from playing a brand of basketball that ever supercedes the brand of basketball being played by a Finals opponent..

The only time the imposition of suboptimal Lebron-ball worked, was when he was able to stack his team to the brim with Wade, along with 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player Bosh as his 3rd option.





Imagine the Bulls winning with Pippen suddenly averaging 10ppg on shitty effciency and no defense - impossible


1) Pippen averaged 9/5 in 1988 First Round when the Bulls beat the Cavs's 5th ranked defense (MJ was 45/5/5 on 56% - not a typo, just prime MJ)

2) Pippen only averaged 15/8/3 on 41% in 1989 1st Round when MJ hit "the shot" against CLE's #2 defense (MJ was 40/6/8 on 52%).

3) Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 34% FG in 1996 Finals - that's not a typo - it's the worst performance EVER by a 2nd option in the Finals

4) Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals, including 6 points and 8 points in final 2 games.. This WOAT 2nd option contribution forced MJ to produce the greatest clutch anyone's ever seen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3m6xZIrOH4&t=3m51s).

[red1]

Oh, you mean like Pippen from 1988-1990?

Why does Lebron get pass when his #2 option chokes, but MJ doesn't?



Mo Williams averaged 18/5 against Orlando in 2009 ECF (Delonte 15/3, Zydrunas 10/9, Varejao 9/5 off bench).

In 2010 ECSF, Mo Williams averaged 14 ppg and 6 apg against Boston (Shaq 14/5, Jamison 12/7, Varejao 6/6 and Parker 8 ppg off bench).

This is FAR more help than MJ had in many series that he won..

But for Lebron, his suboptimal style prevents a team with sufficient talent from playing a brand of basketball that ever supercedes the brand of basketball being played by a Finals opponent..

The only time the imposition of suboptimal Lebron-ball worked, was when he was able to stack his team to the brim with Wade, along with 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player Bosh as his 3rd option.



1) Pippen averaged 9/5 in 1988 First Round when the Bulls beat the Cavs's 5th ranked defense (MJ was 45/5/5 on 56% - not a typo, just prime MJ)

2) Pippen only averaged 15/8/3 on 41% in 1989 1st Round when MJ hit "the shot" against CLE's #2 defense (MJ was 40/6/8 on 52%).

3) Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 34% FG in 1996 Finals - that's not a typo - it's the worst performance EVER by a 2nd option in the Finals

4) Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals, including 6 points and 8 points in final 2 games.. This WOAT 2nd option contribution forced MJ to produce the greatest clutch anyone's ever seen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3m6xZIrOH4&t=3m51s).
http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/1535/15358365/2874776-1385.gif

[red1]

jordan would've lost every single year if he had mo williams as his 2nd option

[3ball]

jordan would've lost every single year if he had mo williams as his 2nd option


Not true.. MJ's 1991 championship team didn't have a 16/8 third option like Antawn Jamison (they had 13/8 Horace)

or a 12/7 fourth option in Shaq (they had 10/6 Cartwright)

After that, Lebron had Delonte, Varejao, Hickson, Zydrunas and Anthony Parker at 7+ ppg, while MJ only has Paxson and Armstrong.

Lebron had more than enough help.. But for Lebron, his suboptimal style prevents a team with sufficient talent from playing a brand of basketball that ever supercedes the brand of basketball being played by a Finals opponent..

The only time that Lebron's imposition of his suboptimal style actually worked, was when he was able to stack his team to the brim with Wade, along with 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player Bosh as his 3rd option.

[red1]

Not true.. MJ's 1991 championship team didn't have a 16/8 third option like Antawn Jamison (they had 13/8 Horace)

or a 12/7 fourth option in Shaq (they had 10/6 Cartwright)

After that, Lebron had Delonte, Varejao, Hickson, Zydrunas and Anthony Parker at 7+ ppg, while MJ only has Paxson and Armstrong.

Lebron had more than enough help.. But for Lebron, his suboptimal style prevents a team with sufficient talent from playing a brand of basketball that ever supercedes the brand of basketball being played by a Finals opponent..

The only time that Lebron's imposition of his suboptimal style actually worked, was when he was able to stack his team to the brim with Wade, along with 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player Bosh as his 3rd option.
can someone neg this f*ggt for me? comparing 2010 antawn jamison to 91 grant :facepalm did you even watch the series or did you just look at the stats? KG wrecked him

[dontgetchoked]

can someone neg this f*ggt for me? comparing 2010 antawn jamison to 91 grant :facepalm did you even watch the series or did you just look at the stats? KG wrecked him

You're both f*ggots.

[LAZERUSS]

It always amazes me that MJ had so little help in his six title runs (other than two HOFers, a 20 ppg scorer in Ron Harper, one of the greatest shooters in NBA history in Kerr, and a truly outstanding PF in Grant)...

but he couldn't win shit from '85 thru '90 with rosters that were evidently no worse than what he had from '91 thru '98.

Oh, and the '94 Bulls, without MJ, went an injury-plagued 55-27, and even when he came back he couldn't take that same exact roster, sans Grant, past the second round. He had to ADD HOFer Rodman to a roster that won 55 games without him...to win his last three titles.

[red1]

You're both f*ggots.
http://cdn3.volusion.com/ksyzs.kmdvf/v/vspfiles/photos/rose-black-tee-2.jpg

[red1]

It always amazes me that MJ had so little help in his six title runs (other than two HOFers, a 20 ppg scorer in Ron Harper, one of the greatest shooters in NBA history in Kerr, and a truly outstanding PF in Grant)...

but he couldn't win shit from '85 thru '90 with rosters that were evidently no worse than what he had from '91 thru '98.

Oh, and the '94 Bulls, without MJ, went an injury-plagued 55-27, and even when he came back he couldn't take that same exact roster, sans Grant, past the second round. He had to ADD HOFer Rodman to a roster that won 55 games without him...to win his last three titles.
not to mention one of the GOAT coaches. 3ball is just a retarded gif-monkey :facepalm

[3ball]

can someone neg this f*ggt for me? comparing 2010 antawn jamison to 91 grant :facepalm did you even watch the series or did you just look at the stats? KG wrecked him


Jamison is 18/8 for his career compared to Grant's 11/8..

Jamison could create his own shot - he wasn't just a play-finisher like Grant.. Don't compare the two.

Btw, KG wrecks everyone.. He's a HOF... He'd destroy Grant worse than Barkley did in the 1993 Finals (28/14/6).

[red1]

Jamison is 18/8 for his career compared to Grant's 11/8..

Jamison could create his own shot - he wasn't just a play-finisher like Grant.. Don't compare the two.

Btw, KG wrecks everyone.. He's a HOF... He'd destroy Grant worse than Barkley did in the 1993 Finals (28/14/6).
you just definitively proved that you didn't watch the series. jamison was old and a liability at that stage meanwhile grant was an asset. never bring up that comparison again you jpeg chimp

[LAZERUSS]

not to mention one of the GOAT coaches. 3ball is just a retarded gif-monkey :facepalm

Virtually every knowledgeable poster here has MJ above Lebron. But he has carried his hatred for Lebron to the point of disparaging HOF teammates and other very good players that contributed to those six titles.

And you're right...he had Phil Jackson, who was able to win five titles without MJ, and took an MJ-less team to 55 wins in '94. Meanwhile, Lebron had shitty rosters in '09 and '10, with a moron for a head coach, and he STILL got 66 and 61 wins out of them.

And then, he was expected to beat a 67-15 Warrior team in the Finals, with a cast of clowns that was FAR worse than the worst rosters MJ had in the 80's, when he had a losing record, and went 1-9 in the post-season.

[3ball]

jamison was old and a liability at that stage meanwhile grant was an asset.


Lebron's 2nd and 3rd options in 2010 against Boston was Shaq's 14 ppg and Mo Williams' 13 ppg and 5 apg.. So compare Grant to those guys, not Jamison.

Jamison wasn't asked to do much - he was the 4th option at 12/7... And in reality, that's the same as Horace Grant's career averages as a 3rd option, which shows how much more help Lebron had than MJ (I guess that's why MJ had to put up superior stats.. Makes sense.)





you just definitively proved that you didn't watch the series.


I watched it, which is how I know that Lebron's suboptimal style prevents a team with sufficient talent from ever playing a brand of basketball that supercedes the brand being played by elite playoffs teams.

The only time that Lebron's imposition of his suboptimal style actually worked, was when he was able to stack his team to the brim with Wade, along with 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player Bosh as his 3rd option.
.

[red1]

Lebron's 2nd and 3rd options in 2010 ECSF against Boston was Shaq at 14 PPG and Mo Williams at 13 ppg and 5 apg.

Jamison was the 4th option at 12/7, which is the same as Horace Grant's career averages as a 3rd option.



I watched it, which is how I know that Lebron's suboptimal style prevents a team with sufficient talent from playing a brand of basketball that ever supercedes the brand of basketball being played by the elite playoffs teams.

The only time that Lebron's imposition of his suboptimal style actually worked, was when he was able to stack his team to the brim with Wade, along with 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player Bosh as his 3rd option.
You are hopeless. I love how you attempt to disguise your trolling with bullshit analysis and stat-whoring

Here are the facts. Jordan never won shit without pippen. Period. He had the GOAT coach as well for all of his success. So for you to act like a player is expected to win with mediocrity like mike brown, mo williams and washed up near-useless 2010 shaq and jamison just shows that you are either A: mentally deficient or B: an irrational fanboy

I am convinced that is a combination of both. Have yourself a good night

[dontgetchoked]

uhh so? i dont live my life through another man, you can say whatever you want about d rose. you, on the otherhand, chose to spend your sunday afternoon arguing with this dude when you obviously arent going to change his mind. you just can't help yourself because he said something about your man. what would you even do with your life if lebron hadn't given you something to live for?

[red1]

uhh so? i dont live my life through another man, you can say whatever you want about d rose. you, on the otherhand, chose to spend your sunday afternoon arguing with this dude when you obviously arent going to change his mind. you just can't help yourself because he said something about your man. what would you even do with your life if lebron hadn't given you something to live for?
I love my life. :confusedshrug: You are the one who responded to my post in the first place.

[3ball]

mo williams, 2010 shaq, jamison


Mo williams 13/5 > Paxson's 9/4... Shaq's 12/7 ~ Grant's 13/8... Jamison's 16/8 < Pippen's 18/7

And the rest of Lebron's roster (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas, Hickson, Parker) destroys MJ's (Cartwright, Armstrong, King, Hodges)

[red1]

> Paxson, Grant, Pippen in 91'

even if you disagree, the stats say Cavs win easily

And the rest of Lebron's roster (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas, Hickson, Parker) destroys MJ's (Cartwright, Armstrong, King, Hodges)
this is the exact reason why you are one of the biggest jokes on this website. You really believe that the 2010 cavs cast was better than what jordan had in 91? His cast was literally better in every single way from perimeter defense to interior defense to coaching to offense. Disgusting fanboyism overall and you give pippen zero credit as well. You are actually worse than pauk

[warriorfan]

Mo williams 13/5 > Paxson's 9/4... Shaq's 12/7 ~ Grant's 13/8... Jamison's 16/8 < Pippen's 18/7

And the rest of Lebron's roster (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas, Hickson, Parker) destroys MJ's (Cartwright, Armstrong, King, Hodges)

For real. When people try to act like Mo Williams and Antwan Jamison are bums you know they don't know shit about basketball...

[red1]

For real. When people try to act like Mo Williams and Antwan Jamison are bums you know they don't know shit about basketball...
:roll: this why you have a red light-saber

How many players in the history of the nba would have won with mo williams and 2010 jamison as their 2nd and 3rd options?

[3ball]

this is the exact reason why you are one of the biggest jokes on this website. You really believe that the 2010 cavs cast was better than what jordan had in 91? His cast was literally better in every single way from perimeter defense to interior defense to coaching to offense. Disgusting fanboyism overall and you give pippen zero credit as well. You are actually worse than pauk
The stats back me up*, but that's not the important thing..

The stats merely support what we see with our own two eyes: Lebron's suboptimal style prevents his supporting cast from playing to their capacity - this is common knowledge.. I'm not sure why you're upset.

Lebron's suboptimal style prevents a team with sufficient talent from ever playing a brand of basketball that supercedes the brand being played by the elite playoffs teams.

The only time that Lebron's imposition of his suboptimal style actually worked, was when he was able to stack his team to the brim with Wade, along with 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player Bosh as his 3rd option.

* Mo Williams 13/5 > Paxson's 9/4... Shaq's 12/7 ~ Grant's 13/8... Jamison's 16/8 < Pippen's 18/7

And the rest of Lebron's roster (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas, Hickson, Parker) destroys MJ's (Cartwright, Armstrong, King, Hodges)
.

[warriorfan]

:roll: this why you have a red light-saber

How many players in the history of the nba would have won with mo williams and 2010 jamison as their 2nd and 3rd options?

Pretty much everyone in the top 10 All Time Great Rankings.

[red1]

For the 80 millionth time - it's not just that the stats back me up*..

The stats merely support what we see with our own two eyes: Lebron's suboptimal style prevents his supporting cast from playing to their capacity - this is common knowledge.. I'm not sure why you're upset.

Lebron's suboptimal style prevents a team with sufficient talent from playing a brand of basketball that ever supercedes the brand of basketball being played by the elite playoffs teams.

The only time that Lebron's imposition of his suboptimal style actually worked, was when he was able to stack his team to the brim with Wade, along with 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player Bosh as his 3rd option.

* Mo Williams 13/5 > Paxson's 9/4... Shaq's 12/7 ~ Grant's 13/8... Jamison's 16/8 < Pippen's 18/7

And the rest of Lebron's roster (Varejao, Delonte, Zydrunas, Hickson, Parker) destroys MJ's (Cartwright, Armstrong, King, Hodges)
For the 80 millionth time - you have NO CLUE what you are talking about. The fact that you think the 2010 cavs supporting roster was better than the 91 bulls cast PROVES that beyond a shadow of a doubt. I dont care how many gifs you post or bullshit stats you dig up. You are a stat-monkey and a gif-chimp that does not know basketball. Period.

[red1]

Pretty much everyone in the top 10 All Time Great Rankings.
Literally none of them would have won. Stop posting.

[warriorfan]

Literally none of them would have won. Stop posting.

Hakeem would of dusted Dwight Howard and Rafer Alston's butt in the 09' ECF

[red1]

Hakeem would of dusted Dwight Howard and Rafer Alston's butt in the 09' ECF
that series was a mismatch because z was old and couldnt handle dwight and the cavs next best perimeter defender was the 6'3 delonte vs 6'9 shard and hedo. either way even if hakeem beat the magic which very well may have happened he would for sure lose to the superior lakers cast

so no, hakeem wouldnt win

[3ball]

For the 80 millionth time - you have NO CLUE what you are talking about. The fact that you think the 2010 cavs supporting roster was better than the 91 bulls cast PROVES that beyond a shadow of a doubt. I dont care how many gifs you post or bullshit stats you dig up. You are a stat-monkey and a gif-chimp that does not know basketball. Period.
You know what proves you don't understand basketball well?

You don't understand that Lebron's sub-optimal, ball-dominant style prevents his team from utilizing the most advanced, cutting edge strategy and brand of basketball..

That's why it's always the OTHER team (SAS, DAL, GSW) that is perceived as using the cutting edge strategy and playing the best brand of basketball.. Those teams simply aren't restricted by having to cater to a ball-dominant, low-assisted player occupying a normally highly assisted frontcourt position.

The only time that Lebron's imposition of his suboptimal style actually worked, was when he was able to stack his team to the brim with Wade, along with 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player Bosh as his 3rd option.

[red1]

You know what proves you don't understand basketball well?

You don't understand that Lebron's sub-optimal, ball-dominant style prevents his team from utilizing the most advanced, cutting edge strategy and brand of basketball..

That's why it's always the OTHER team (SAS, DAL, GSW) that is perceived as using the cutting edge strategy and playing the best brand of basketball.. Those teams simply aren't restricted by having to cater to a ball-dominant, low-assisted player occupying a normally highly assisted frontcourt position.

The only time that Lebron's imposition of his suboptimal style actually worked, was when he was able to stack his team to the brim with Wade, along with 10-time All-Star and 20/10 player Bosh as his 3rd option.
Just because you keep repeating the same shit doesnt make it true. 91 Jordan had a better supporting cast. Period. Pippen and Grant> Mo and 2010 Jamison. Period. Jordan would have lost with those rosters. Period. Now I have shit to do, go waste someone else's time.

[warriorfan]

that series was a mismatch because z was old and couldnt handle dwight and the cavs next best perimeter defender was the 6'3 delonte vs 6'9 shard and hedo. either way even if hakeem beat the magic which very well may have happened he would for sure lose to the superior lakers cast

so no, hakeem wouldnt win

That's why hakeem is higher on the ATG rankings than LeBron

[red1]

That's why hakeem is higher on the ATG rankings than LeBron
this doesnt make any sense. because he plays a position where in one specific series he could have neutralized a mismatch it automatically means that he is higher on the ATG ratings?


that's why you have a red lightsaber


Pippen > Mo Williams, but Jamison's 16/8 in 2010 was better than Grant's 13/8 in 1991.. And Jamison was a much better player overall - 18/8 for his career versus 11/8 for Grant.. It's not close

And the rest of Lebron's team (Varejao, Shaq, Delonte, Hickson, Zydrunas) is on a completely different level than MJ's (Cartwright, Paxson, Armstrong)

:facepalm

[3ball]

:lol:

[sdot_thadon]

Again if you actually watched that year you'd know they attempted MO as the setup man in 09, he wasn't very good at it. You constantly cry about how much lebron has the ball in his hands but never acknowledge the basic root of it. He's the best option to make plays on every single team he's been on in his career, thus he generally is most capable and trusted to run the team. The results of it have him as a top 10 goat at the age of 30. Tell me what pg or player period he's had more fit to run the teams he's been on. I'll wait.
Still waiting .......

Lebron has 2nd and 3rd options better than Mj :wtf:
MJ had 2nd and 3rd options that actually played defense. 2 sides of the floor. Not even close.

[warriorfan]

this doesnt make any sense. because he plays a position where in one specific series he could have neutralized a mismatch it automatically means that he is higher on the ATG ratings?


that's why you have a red lightsaber

Hakeem had more impact than LeBron James. Contort it all you want but it is what it is. Hakeem would of done more with the Cavs than LeBron did.

[3ball]

Pippen and Grant > Mo and 2010 Jamison.


Pippen > Mo Williams, but Jamison's 16/8 in 2010 was better than Grant's 13/8 in 1991..

And the rest of Lebron's team (Varejao, Shaq, Delonte, Hickson, Zydrunas) is on a completely different level than MJ's (Cartwright, Paxson, Armstrong)

Btw, Jamison was a better player overall than Grant - 18/8 for his career versus 11/8 for Grant.. Jamison could create his own shot.. Grant was just a play-finisher.. It's not close

[red1]

Hakeem had more impact than LeBron James. Contort it all you want but it is what it is. Hakeem would of done more with the Cavs than LeBron did.
First of all it is would have, not would of. Second of all you have no way of proving this. Hakeem won with solid rosters, nothing special at all. However they were still better than what bron had in 09 and 10. Period. And no, I truly do not believe that he would have won in EITHER of those years though as a center he would have as good a shot as any all-time great.

[red1]

Pippen > Mo Williams, but Jamison's 16/8 in 2010 was better than Grant's 13/8 in 1991..

And the rest of Lebron's team (Varejao, Shaq, Delonte, Hickson, Zydrunas) is on a completely different level than MJ's (Cartwright, Paxson, Armstrong)

Btw, Jamison was a better player overall than Grant - 18/8 for his career versus 11/8 for Grant.. Jamison could create his own shot.. Grant was just a play-finisher.. It's not close

Just because you keep repeating the same shit doesnt make it true. 91 Jordan had a better supporting cast. Period. Pippen and Grant> Mo and 2010 Jamison. Period. Jordan would have lost with those rosters. Period. Now I have shit to do, go waste someone else's time.
I hate to quote myself but I will save a minute so w.e.

[warriorfan]

First of all it is would have, not would of. Second of all you have no way of proving this. Hakeem won with solid rosters, nothing special at all. However they were still better than what bron had in 09 and 10. Period. And no, I truly do not believe that he would have won in EITHER of those years though as a center he would have as good a shot as any all-time great.

2009 Magic sucked. Dwight Howard, Rafer Alston, Rashard Lewis, Hedo, these guys ****ing suck. You keep acting like LeBron is going up against the bad boy pistons and losing. LeBron's team was very capable of beating that Magic team but LeBron vanished in game 7. Something that ATG players don't do.

[Hey Yo]

Originally Posted by 3ball
Oh, you mean like Pippen from 1988-1990?

Why does Lebron get pass when his #2 option chokes, but MJ doesn't?
You're using Pippen's first 3yrs in the league and say "he choked each year?

Why does MJ get a pass for blowing a 2-1 HC lead in the 1989 ECF? Pivotal game 5 with the series tied at 2....he only took 8 FGA in 46mp. Outplayed by scrub Cartwright.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198905310DET.html

:confusedshrug:

[red1]

2009 Magic sucked. Dwight Howard, Rafer Alston, Rashard Lewis, Hedo, these guys ****ing suck. You keep acting like LeBron is going up against the bad boy pistons and losing. LeBron's team was very capable of beating that Magic team but LeBron vanished in game 7. Something that ATG players don't do.
You just exposed yourself. The series didn't even go 7 games. :facepalm It is obvious that you don't know what you are talking about either. I'm out sucker. :roll:

[Lebron23]

For the 80 millionth time - you have NO CLUE what you are talking about. The fact that you think the 2010 cavs supporting roster was better than the 91 bulls cast PROVES that beyond a shadow of a doubt. I dont care how many gifs you post or bullshit stats you dig up. You are a stat-monkey and a gif-chimp that does not know basketball. Period.


Holy $hit. Red1 totally destroyed 3balls.

[Hey Yo]

2009 Magic sucked. Dwight Howard, Rafer Alston, Rashard Lewis, Hedo, these guys ****ing suck. You keep acting like LeBron is going up against the bad boy pistons and losing. LeBron's team was very capable of beating that Magic team but LeBron vanished in game 7. Something that ATG players don't do.
That's why Kobe's first ring as "the man" isn't that impressive.

[Lebron23]

Warriorfans and 3balls got wrecked in this thread.

[warriorfan]

That's why Kobe's first ring as "the man" isn't that impressive.

Actually their All-Star point guard and leader of their team, Jameer Nelson, came back to play in the Finals. They were a much better team with Jameer Nelson. LeBron got torched by the Nelsonless Magic.

[3ball]

You're using Pippen's first 3yrs in the league and say "he choked each year?


Why not?... A young Pippen is all MJ had to work with.. And yeah, he choked each year.. It's well-documented.





Why does MJ get a pass for blowing a 2-1 HC lead in the 1989 ECF?

:confusedshrug:
MJ was carrying a far worse team against far better competition.

Just compare MJ's playoff run in 1989 vs. Lebron's in 2007:


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 59.8% TS.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 54.9% TS.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 64.6% TS.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 53.7% TS.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 59.8% TS.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 53.7% TS.. 44.9% FG)






Pivotal game 5 with the series tied at 2....he only took 8 FGA in 46mp. Outplayed by scrub Cartwright.


Again, MJ's Bulls were the 6-seed... They were not expected to beat the champion Bad Boys.. MJ's teams NEVER underachieved their seeding, let alone miss the Finals as the #1 seed... Whereas Lebron missed the Finals twice as the 1 seed..

MJ also faced constant double-teams via the Jordan Rules (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GYKrcM1k0U&t=1m21s) and a Rodman/Dumars defensive combination - Lebron has never faced this level of pressure.

[sdot_thadon]

Just like I thought.

[Rocketswin2013]

For the 80 millionth time - you have NO CLUE what you are talking about. The fact that you think the 2010 cavs supporting roster was better than the 91 bulls cast PROVES that beyond a shadow of a doubt. I dont care how many gifs you post or bullshit stats you dig up. You are a stat-monkey and a gif-chimp that does not know basketball. Period.
I wouldn't even call him a stat-ape. He posts very vague stats and removes key details. For instance, pace, efficiency, and he also pays no mind to defense.

In Jordan's worst game of the 1991 playoffs, the Bulls barely even looked like they chipped in. A troll would just say, "Grant with a measly 8/10", but they played at a pretty slow pace against the Pistons in that game (82 possessions), and had TS%'s of 65+ each(compared to Jordan's 53 TS% and 6 TOV). Grant had a .952 TS% in said game. Several better Drtg's than Jordan. They pretty much carried him. Won by 11.

Basically, the guy isn't even worth debating. No point in wasting your time with a dunce.

[3ball]

New information and arguments have been brought to light...

[3ball]

The worst thing about the Cavs' underachievement in 2009 and 2010 is that Lebron had a better supporting cast than many players who went further in the playoffs.. For example, take MJ's 1989 Bulls - they went further in the playoffs, and we have proof that they were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that the Cavs won 66 games in 2009, while the Bulls only won 47 in 1989, despite MJ having better stats than Lebron (33/8/8/54 > 28/8/7/49) - since the Cavs higher win total cannot be due to Lebron's lower stats, it can only be due to a better supporting cast or worse competition.

If you think the Cavs' 19 more wins were ONLY due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... The gap in competition invalidates Lebron's 2009 playoff averages of 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl in 1989.

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This must be true and makes more sense.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, which was a stark contrast from MJ's very young, inexperienced and lower-producing cast..

MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team with a worse supporting cast.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to differences in BOTH competition level and supporting cast, not just competition level - the superior competition Jordan faced and his greater 1-man show was underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.

[TheCorporation]

Because his team scored less than his opposition in 4 games of a seven game series.

This

But, he didn't get bounced in the first round like pretty much every other star in NBA history has. Also, he didn't miss the playoffs in his prime.

[Bigsmoke]

?? ??????

Because He didn't play the teams he lost to in the playoffs 82 times a year in the regular season?

[NZStreetBaller]

Lebron went to the finals in 2007 then missed the finals 08 09 and 2010. Those three years kobe was in the finals coincidence? ?? I think not.

#duckedkobe

[pegasus]

LeBron has no excuses. 2009 and 2010 were his prime and in 2009 he was at his highest level while he was stomping the Magic but he shriveled in game 7. His boxscore doesn't tell the whole story, LeBron sucked at the start of the game and let Magic come out to a big lead and then LeBron padded INSANELY after the game was already way out of reach. That Orlando team was beatable as well, especially before the finals because their second best player Jameer Nelson was hurt.
This. He tried for five games and then quit in the last one.

[RRR3]

Lebron went to the finals in 2007 then missed the finals 08 09 and 2010. Those three years kobe was in the finals coincidence? ?? I think not.

#duckedkobe
Kobe went to the finals in 2008, 09 and 10, then missed the finals every year since. Coincidence? I think not.


#duckedLeBron

[pastis]

so compare lebrons teams from 2009 and 2010 with jordans teams:lol

Rodman: 2 DPOY 7x reb champion, 7x all defense first team, first ballot HOF
Pippen: top 35 all time player, 7x AS, 7 all nba selections, 8 all defense first team and 2 all defense second team selections....

let this sink please

[HurricaneKid]

The worst thing about the Cavs' underachievement in 2009 and 2010 is that Lebron had a better supporting cast than many players who went further in the playoffs.. For example, take MJ's 1989 Bulls - they went further in the playoffs, and we have proof that they were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that the Cavs won 66 games in 2009, while the Bulls only won 47 in 1989, despite MJ having better stats than Lebron (33/8/8/54 > 28/8/7/49) - since the Cavs higher win total cannot be due to Lebron's lower stats, it can only be due to a better supporting cast or worse competition.

If you think the Cavs' 19 more wins were ONLY due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... The gap in competition invalidates Lebron's 2009 playoff averages of 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl in 1989.

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This must be true and makes more sense.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, which was a stark contrast from MJ's very young, inexperienced and lower-producing cast..

MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team with a worse supporting cast.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to differences in BOTH competition level and supporting cast, not just competition level - the superior competition Jordan faced and his greater 1-man show was underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.

It is CRIMINAL that you continue to use this broken logic chain as your primary argument.

There is a substantial difference in RS and PS. Largely that difference is that in the RS you are using a vanilla strategy as you play 3-4 different teams a week and there is no enormous differential in strategy between them. Once you face the same team for 2-3 weeks straight you know their every move and have counters and on and on. The truth is LeBron destroys teams in the RS and teams are designed to stop him and nothing else come playoff time. The Celtics were bracketing him with 4 players in 2008. And "All-Stars" Big Z and Mo were embarrassing in their inability to hit open shots. In MJs age, you were essentially forbidden from taking the ball away from the best players without PUNITIVE penalties.

Its also vital to bring up that rule changes have allowed defenses to completely shift the scoring burdens from first options to the 3rd, 4th, even 5th options. Scoring distributions look nothing like they did in 89.

[305Baller]

?? ??????

It's simple:
Because less players slack during the playoffs.

[3ball]

Its also vital to bring up that rule changes have allowed defenses to completely shift the scoring burdens from first options to the 3rd, 4th, even 5th options. Scoring distributions look nothing like they did in 89.


#1 options aren't forced to pass the ball in today's game like you claim - the stats show that most guards, wings and scoring PF in today's game either isolates or uses screen-roll over 50% of their possessions:

(screen-roll ballhandler stats): http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time
(isolation stats): http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time

3-point shooting/spacing, and defensive 3 seconds open up the middle of the floor and allow for 1 player to operate more freely than ever before - obviously, the best players take the most advantage of the more secluded playmaking space provided by the 3-point shooting and spacing.

With the #1 option having more room, time and less physical resistance getting in the lane, defenses actually need to pay MORE attention to them in today's game, but unfortunately the spacing has spread them thin and they must now guard role players 30 feet from the basket.

Btw, if a defense is lucky enough in today's game, a 1st year coach will be dumb enough to get carried away and go too far with the idea of spacing for greater seclusion - they might isolate a player over and over even though that player isn't a good player and only shoots 39% under optimal 1-on-1 conditions.. Sometimes a defense can luck out and have that happen.. QUITE rare, however.





In MJs age, you were essentially forbidden from taking the ball away from the best players without PUNITIVE penalties.


You think that when previous eras double-teamed, it was costly because someone was open and you think it was easy for the team to score ... But it wasn't any easier than teams double-teaming today... Or are you saying teams DON'T double-team today?.

This is partially true because double-teams are used LESS today - spacing makes double teams easier to see coming and the abandoned offensive player is more open and obvious.. With the entire play being more obvious, the punishment is much more swift and easily executed - today's spacing makes double-teaming more "punitive" as you say, which is why double-teaming occurs less today than previous eras.

Also, it's no easier for a team to score on double-teams than it is to score when today's weakside spacing forces a team to strongside flood, thus leaving the weakside a man down and someone (wide) open, perhaps a crafty off-ball player.

But the most obvious reason you can't argue against double-teaming is that it makes scoring HARDER for #1 option, not easier (i.e. it would've been harder if Lebron was doubled in the playoffs, not easier).





In MJs age, you were essentially forbidden from taking the ball away from the best players without PUNITIVE penalties.


In this post, you're also insinuating that teams ran isolations and other plays because the defense was bad and allowed it.. This is a common, fundamental misunderstanding and/or misinformation about what happened and how basketball works.

Have you ever asked yourself what offenses would be run and what TODAY'S game would be like if the 3-point line were removed?.. Because that's how the game looked when MJ came into the league.

So what would today's offenses look like if the 3-point line were removed?... What types of plays are optimal with the highest efficiencies when there's no 3-point line?.. Have you ever actually contemplated it?.. These factors influenced what offenses were run in MJ's day, and would be run with no 3-point line more than the misguided arguments you're making on the defensive side of the ball.

If the league removed the 3-point line, what kind of offenses would be optimal?.. Certainly NOT drive-and-kick (including screen-roll), because you can't do it for 3-pointers anymore, which also means the spacing isn't there to facilitate it anyway (nor the hand-check ban).. So without the drive-and-kick, the remaining options are post, mid-range, off-ball, isolate - go watch the games - these were what teams primarily used.

I know there's this notion that if Lebron played in Magic, MJ or Dr. J's time (to go back even further), he would've single-handedly sparked the brain of the coaching world so they all went from having offenses that shoot no three-pointers, to keeping multiple players behind the 3-point line for a neatly-spaced drive-and-kicks.

Again, get back to reality, that wasn't the question - I said what would today's game look like if you removed the 3-point line - as in, Lebron WASN'T going to spearhead a 3-point shooting revolution for neatly-spaced, drive-and-kicks in an era where MJ and Dr. J's attacking ability didn't (nor would they have ever wanted to).. Obviously, with no drive an kick, Lebron is left with the same post, mid-range and iso options as everyone else.. Too bad he sucks at those.
.

[Indian guy]

It's not possible to win a championship with 'Mo Williams as your 2nd best player and Mike Brown on the sidelines. You can get away with a lot in the regular season given the fact that you're facing different(and on average, much weaker) opponents every other day, the level of effort is notably less and coaching staffs don't really have the time to get down and truly prepare for an opponent. So a team with 1 superstar and a bunch of solid players can achieve a lot. That all changes come playoffs, where your opponent's talent level, effort and preparation is severely ramped up suddenly. Only way you overcome that is through exceptional talent and coaching on your own team. And Cleveland, clearly, didn't have that. Find me a championship team with a 2nd option and coach the equivalent of 'Mo and Mike Brown.

[AceManIII]

Couldn't duplicate regular season success once the stakes got higher

[ShawkFactory]

Matchups also exist. And the 3pt shooters for Orlando just got stupid hot. Stop with your elementary, single-minded, and completely off-base bullshit.

[3ball]

You can get away with a lot in the regular season


That Cavs team won more games than Orlando AGAINST THE SAME COMPETITION..

There's no excuse for that 66-win Cavs team to all of a sudden lose to the Magic just because: "b-b-but it was the playoffs".

But then you want to turn around and give credit to Lebron's RS mvps as if you respect the RS.. :rolleyes:






Find me a team where the 2nd option and coach was equal to Mo Williams and Mike Brown


The 1989 Bulls - 2nd year Pippen and his 14/6/4 was less than veteran and all-star Mo Williams 17/3/6 in 2009... And Coach Doug Collins was worse than Mike Brown.. Brown was a much better defensive coach.

And we have statistical proof that the 1989 Bulls were more of a 1-man team than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that the Cavs won 66 games in 2009, while the Bulls only won 47 in 1989, despite MJ having better stats than Lebron (33/8/8/54 > 28/8/7/49) - since the Cavs higher win total cannot be due to Lebron's lower stats, it can only be due to a better supporting cast or worse competition.

If you think the Cavs' 19 more wins were ONLY due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... The gap in competition invalidates Lebron's 2009 playoff averages of 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl in 1989.

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This must be true and makes more sense.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, which was a stark contrast from MJ's very young, inexperienced and lower-producing cast..

MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team with a worse supporting cast.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to differences in BOTH competition level and supporting cast, not just competition level - the superior competition Jordan faced and his greater 1-man show was underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.
.

[3ball]

Matchups also exist. And the 3pt shooters for Orlando just got stupid hot. Stop with your elementary, single-minded, and completely off-base bullshit.
Oh, it's baseless to get on Lebron for losing as the favorite over and over... :rolleyes:

[DonDadda59]

They were regular season paper tigers playing in a shitty conference ala the Hawks this past season.

The East in '09-'10 was considerably better than it has been post Collusion era though, that's why Bron and the Cavs couldn't break through. There were actually good teams like the Magic and the Celtics that they had to face in the postseason. No free ride to the finals like now.

[DonDadda59]

so compare lebrons teams from 2009 and 2010 with jordans teams:lol

Rodman: 2 DPOY 7x reb champion, 7x all defense first team, first ballot HOF
Pippen: top 35 all time player, 7x AS, 7 all nba selections, 8 all defense first team and 2 all defense second team selections....

let this sink please

Meh, Rodman was 33 when he joined the Bulls. Bringing up his DPOYs is like bringing up Ben Wallace's when he played with Bron in '09-'10. Big Ben was the same age when he joined the Cavs that Dennis was when he joined the Bulls. Shaq played with Bron too. No need to rattle off his accomplishments.

And Pippen was injury riddled during the second 3-peat. Played subpar playoff ball and missed a half a season while Jordan led the Bulls to 62 wins en route to another MVP, championship, finals MVP, scoring title, even an all star MVP.

[red1]

#1 options aren't forced to pass the ball in today's game like you claim - the stats show that most guards, wings and scoring PF in today's game either isolates or uses screen-roll over 50% of their possessions:

(screen-roll ballhandler stats): http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time
(isolation stats): http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time

3-point shooting/spacing, and defensive 3 seconds open up the middle of the floor and allow for 1 player to operate more freely than ever before - obviously, the best players take the most advantage of the more secluded playmaking space provided by the 3-point shooting and spacing.

With the #1 option having more room, time and less physical resistance getting in the lane, defenses actually need to pay MORE attention to them in today's game, but unfortunately the spacing has spread them thin and they must now guard role players 30 feet from the basket.

Btw, if a defense is lucky enough in today's game, a 1st year coach will be dumb enough to get carried away and go too far with the idea of spacing for greater seclusion - they might isolate a player over and over even though that player isn't a good player and only shoots 39% under optimal 1-on-1 conditions.. Sometimes a defense can luck out and have that happen.. QUITE rare, however.



You think that when previous eras double-teamed, it was costly because someone was open and you think it was easy for the team to score ... But it wasn't any easier than teams double-teaming today... Or are you saying teams DON'T double-team today?.

This is partially true because double-teams are used LESS today - spacing makes double teams easier to see coming and the abandoned offensive player is more open and obvious.. With the entire play being more obvious, the punishment is much more swift and easily executed - today's spacing makes double-teaming more "punitive" as you say, which is why double-teaming occurs less today than previous eras.

Also, it's no easier for a team to score on double-teams than it is to score when today's weakside spacing forces a team to strongside flood, thus leaving the weakside a man down and someone (wide) open, perhaps a crafty off-ball player.

But the most obvious reason you can't argue against double-teaming is that it makes scoring HARDER for #1 option, not easier (i.e. it would've been harder if Lebron was doubled in the playoffs, not easier).



In this post, you're also insinuating that teams ran isolations and other plays because the defense was bad and allowed it.. This is a common, fundamental misunderstanding and/or misinformation about what happened and how basketball works.

Have you ever asked yourself what offenses would be run and what TODAY'S game would be like if the 3-point line were removed?.. Because that's how the game looked when MJ came into the league.

So what would today's offenses look like if the 3-point line were removed?... What types of plays are optimal with the highest efficiencies when there's no 3-point line?.. Have you ever actually contemplated it?.. These factors influenced what offenses were run in MJ's day, and would be run with no 3-point line more than the misguided arguments you're making on the defensive side of the ball.

If the league removed the 3-point line, what kind of offenses would be optimal?.. Certainly NOT drive-and-kick (including screen-roll), because you can't do it for 3-pointers anymore, which also means the spacing isn't there to facilitate it anyway (nor the hand-check ban).. So without the drive-and-kick, the remaining options are post, mid-range, off-ball, isolate - go watch the games - these were what teams primarily used.

I know there's this notion that if Lebron played in Magic, MJ or Dr. J's time (to go back even further), he would've single-handedly sparked the brain of the coaching world so they all went from having offenses that shoot no three-pointers, to keeping multiple players behind the 3-point line for a neatly-spaced drive-and-kicks.

Again, get back to reality, that wasn't the question - I said what would today's game look like if you removed the 3-point line - as in, Lebron WASN'T going to spearhead a 3-point shooting revolution for neatly-spaced, drive-and-kicks in an era where MJ and Dr. J's attacking ability didn't (nor would they have ever wanted to).. Obviously, with no drive an kick, Lebron is left with the same post, mid-range and iso options as everyone else.. Too bad he sucks at those.
.
this retard is still at it...

http://replygif.net/i/172.gif

[3ball]

In MJs age, you were essentially forbidden from taking the ball away from the best players without PUNITIVE penalties.


:wtf:
Teams double-team LESS today because the spacing makes the double team more obvious and easier to see coming, while the abandoned offensive player is more wide open and easier to find..

For these reasons, teams double-team LESS today, which makes it easier for #1 options.





Its also vital to bring up that rule changes have allowed defenses to completely shift the scoring burdens from first options to the 3rd, 4th, even 5th options. Scoring distributions look nothing like they did in 89.


#1 options aren't forced to pass the ball in today's game like you claim - the stats show that most guards, wings and scoring PF in today's game either isolates or uses screen-roll over 50% of their possessions:

(screen-roll ballhandler stats): http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/ball-handler/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time
(isolation stats): http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive&sort=Time

3-point shooting/spacing, and defensive 3 seconds open up the middle of the floor and allow for 1 player to operate more freely than ever before - obviously, the best players take the most advantage of the more secluded playmaking space provided by the 3-point shooting and spacing.

With the #1 option having more room, time and less physical resistance getting in the lane, defenses actually need to pay MORE attention to them in today's game, but unfortunately the spacing has spread them thin and they must now guard role players 30 feet from the basket.






http://s29.postimg.org/y32v1xeqv/overload.jpg



Its also vital to bring up that rule changes have allowed defenses to completely shift the scoring burdens from first options to the 3rd, 4th, even 5th options. Scoring distributions look nothing like they did in 89.



You're talking about the strongside flood, shown above - but that's an inferior defensive tactic to paint-camping.

When Deandre abandons Mosgov on the near block and floods to the strongside, it leaves the weakside a man down defensively and therefore someone open (Love in the near-corner) - teams take advantage of the open man the same way they would find the open man on a double team.. Also, Deandre must flood to OUTSIDE of the paint on the strongside because of defensive 3 seconds, which prevents him from camping in the paint.

However, Deandre paint-camping under the rim would be more optimal - Deandre hasn't abandoned Mosgov, so the weakside isn't left a man down.. Griffin doesn't have to cover Mosgov and gets to stay on Love in the near-corners, so one one is open.. Meanwhile, Dandre's presence under the rim provides the best opportunity to defend against penetrators from the strongside.

It's been long proven that a big man's presence under the rim is the best possible position for him and the team defensively.
.

[ShawkFactory]

Oh, it's baseless to get on Lebron for losing as the favorite over and over... :rolleyes:
No, you're calling a team a favorite because of a regular season record. Were the Hawks the favorites in the east this year?

Literally just used record...this you're argument and overall bullshit that you're spewing here is basically baseless

[red1]

Someone who earnestly argues that the 91 bulls cast was equal or inferior to the 2010 cavs cast simply has ZERO credibility. You don't know shit or you do know what you are talking about but simply want to peddle your agenda.

Either way your opinion is irrelevant and definitely not worth reading.

[3ball]

you're calling a team a favorite because of a regular season record. [B]Were

Literally just used record...


The Cavs weren't just the #1 seed - they WERE the favorite in 2009 and 2010 - no one was saying ANYONE else would win

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron went to the finals in 2007 then missed the finals 08 09 and 2010. Those three years kobe was in the finals coincidence? ?? I think not.

#duckedkobe

you made a thread about this before and got clowned to death for it.. time to stop dont you think?

[warriorfan]

Michael Jordan would of beat the Jameer Nelsonless Magic in '09 if he was on the Cavs in place of LeBron.

[SouBeachTalents]

Michael Jordan would of beat the Jameer Nelsonless Magic in '09 if he was on the Cavs in place of LeBron.

Unless Jordan could average better than 39/8/8 on 49%, I doubt it

[Segatti]

Because his teammates were dogshit

[Spurs m8]

Bron is a career loser, thats why

[3ball]

you guys are ignoring facts.

[Straight_Ballin]

Because regular season records don't matter?

If the hawks won so much in RS, why couldn't they win in the ECF? Why did the 93-94 bulls team almost win 60 games in the RS, but couldn't win in the playoffs? The list goes on and on

If regular season records don't matter then I guess GSW has no ambition to try and go 72-10 or better?:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

If regular season records don't matter then I guess GSW has no ambition to try and go 72-10 or better?:confusedshrug:
Regular seasons show which teams are playing the hardest, and in general, how well teams play when they're going about 85% and playing against both good teams and bad.

Otoh, the playoffs shows how well teams play when their opponents are better and going all out.. The playoffs exposes teams for what they really are.

The playoffs are an entirely higher level of competition - this is why some guys' stats crater, like when some guys go from college to the pros.

[3ball]

Unless Jordan could average better than 39/8/8 on 49%, I doubt it


Jordan has 6 playoff series where he averaged over 40 ppg, while Lebron has zero.

But that isn't even important - the most important thing is that teammates play worse alongside Lebron than they do alongside Jordan - with Lebron, the story is always how his teammates underperformed, especially against the best teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teammates played much better alongside him (to capacity), so his teams never underachieved by losing as the favorite, or even when it was 50/50 - the only times he lost in the playoffs were when NOBODY thought his team would win.. In 2009 ECF, the Cavs were favored, so we know a Jordan-led supporting cast would've played well enough to win, which is something that didn't happen for Lebron's cast.

Btw, we know WHY Lebron's teammates routinely underperform against the best teams - it's statistical fact that Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers, and their diminished playmaking capacity makes it harder for them to perform well against the best teams.

Otoh, Jordan's sheer force of will and off-ball style was ideally-suited to elevate teammates once the competition kicks up a tier in the playoffs - and this is what happened.