OKC matched Portland's offer sheet for Kanter [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

SwishSquared

07-12-2015, 09:40 PM

And led them out of the playoffs. With KD back he goes back to 12/8 and could be the worst defensive player ever. Utah went from #26 in the league in D to #5 after trading him. and OKC ppg was 7 points worse after the trade. He just gives up so much more than he gives. i cant believe there are two teams in the league that are willing to pay him that much.

OKC refuses to pay Harden 14.5m, pays Kanter 17.5.Also, Utah defended at least as well with Gobert on the bench post ASB as they did with him. That shows you talented that roster was on D and by how much Kanter held them back. I don't remember any of their other guys significantly improving on D after Kanter left, either, but perhaps I'm wrong.

I still stand by this: Blazers did this to mess with a division rival. They figured OKC would be impeded in some way- whether huge tax bills, trading guys, losing assets (Kanter walking for zilch in return), etc. If OKC passed on Kanter, then Blazers would have used Kanter to score a bunch, prop up their offense, and then trade him next summer.

The thing is, I doubt OKC traded for him with the intention of not expecting somebody to offer him a max. They made a decision then to match any offer sheets. Also, they had no way to replace his offensive production this season with what little room they had. It's a gamble to show KD they will spend to obtain and keep players to contend for titles. Kanter possibly is their 3rd best big man by net impact this upcoming year and potentially beyond, I think.

Westbrook0

07-12-2015, 09:42 PM

I'm thankful for Presti's stupidity:oldlol:

Blazers royally ass raped OKC.

By adding a trade kicker in there?

The Kanter contract situation was like Portland's playoffs.

Good job Portland! You made minor changes to a player's contract that OKC was going to sign for max anyway!

Anyway, have fun with your rebuilding process while we win the NW division and contend for a championship.

Heavincent

07-12-2015, 09:42 PM

Blazers drove up the price just to be ***** :oldlol: :applause:

Now OKC is giving the max to one of the worst defenders in the league.

Westbrook0

07-12-2015, 09:44 PM

And led them out of the playoffs.

OKC refuses to pay Harden 14.5m, pays Kanter 17.5.

Yes, trading for Kanter was the reason OKC didn't make the playoffs. It had nothing to do with KD, Russ, Serge and everyone else being injured.

Also:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/17/report-nba-predicts-89-million-salary-cap-in-2016-22-million-jump-and-it-keeps-going-up/

Heavincent

07-12-2015, 09:46 PM

I like how people keep using the cap increase to justify bad contracts.

Westbrook0

07-12-2015, 09:46 PM

The thing is, I doubt OKC traded for him with the intention of not expecting somebody to offer him a max. They made a decision then to match any offer sheets. Also, they had no way to replace his offensive production this season with what little room they had.

This is wrong. NO ONE thought Kanter was a max player while he was still in Utah. OKC was prepared to match either way, but were not expecting to pay max. It wasn't until Kanter's numbers skyrocketed and the cap went up that he was going to get the max.

Westbrook0

07-12-2015, 09:48 PM

I like how people keep using the cap increase to justify bad contracts.

If you don't understand how this works and how it affects the contracts that are going on right now, you're an idiot.

A 17 million/yr contract under the new cap is like an 11 million contract right now.

Genaro

07-12-2015, 09:49 PM

RoseCity07

07-12-2015, 09:55 PM

By adding a trade kicker in there?

The Kanter contract situation was like Portland's playoffs.

Good job Portland! You made minor changes to a player's contract that OKC was going to sign for max anyway!

Anyway, have fun with your rebuilding process while we win the NW division and contend for a championship.

OKC is not going to contend. Durant is as injury prone as Greg Oden now. They have no one. Wesbrook is never gonna lead a team anywhere.

KD and Westbrook are gone first chance they get. Have fun not winning and then rebuilding anyway.:oldlol:

Nash

07-12-2015, 09:57 PM

Also, Utah defended at least as well with Gobert on the bench post ASB as they did with him. That shows you talented that roster was on D and by how much Kanter held them back. I don't remember any of their other guys significantly improving on D after Kanter left, either, but perhaps I'm wrong.

I still stand by this: Blazers did this to mess with a division rival. They figured OKC would be impeded in some way- whether huge tax bills, trading guys, losing assets (Kanter walking for zilch in return), etc. If OKC passed on Kanter, then Blazers would have used Kanter to score a bunch, prop up their offense, and then trade him next summer.

The thing is, I doubt OKC traded for him with the intention of not expecting somebody to offer him a max. They made a decision then to match any offer sheets. Also, they had no way to replace his offensive production this season with what little room they had. It's a gamble to show KD they will spend to obtain and keep players to contend for titles. Kanter possibly is their 3rd best big man by net impact this upcoming year and potentially beyond, I think.
makes you wonder why teams won't do this to the Cavs and Tristan Thompson? mess with them and force them to pay him money he's nowhere close deserving of. everybody and their mom knows that the cavs won't let tristan go cuz of the lebron/rich Paul connection, the fact that they want to win and that they can't get anything back if they lose Tristan cuz of already being over the salary cap.

Clifton

07-12-2015, 09:57 PM

Thunder needed another offensive option. They have a rim protector already.

They can win the title this year. Without Kanter... it'd be tough.

Westbrook0

07-12-2015, 09:57 PM

OKC is not going to contend. Durant is as injury prone as Greg Oden now. They have no one. Wesbrook is never gonna lead a team anywhere.

KD and Westbrook are gone first chance they get. Have fun not winning and then rebuilding anyway.:oldlol:

OK, now you're obviously just trolling. At first I wasn't sure but now I know I can go ahead and just ignore you and not try to reason with you. Anyone who says OKC isn't a contender now is obviously just trying to be annoying.

Have fun with that!

imnew09

07-12-2015, 10:07 PM

Im whatever with this contract however personally i wouldnt give Kanter Max. But OKC FO has to do whatever it takes to make Goatbrook and KD happy, so its a must to match i guess

SwishSquared

07-12-2015, 10:09 PM

This is wrong. NO ONE thought Kanter was a max player while he was still in Utah. OKC was prepared to match either way, but were not expecting to pay max. It wasn't until Kanter's numbers skyrocketed and the cap went up that he was going to get the max.If 26 games or so of 18/11 on impressive TS% while putting up awful defensive numbers garners you a max, then so be it. Utah went from bottom 5 to top 5 D and OKC went down significantly defensively after the Kanter trade.

I remember hearing you guys would match anything, even a max, when the trade first went down. Maybe that was speculation by some reporters, but I do recall reading that. Your FO had to plan that somebody could throw a ludicrous contract at him. Otherwise, that's not evaluating future scenarios enough. Presti is smarter than that.

He wanted at least $14M/year last summer- before it was definite that no cap smoothing would occur and that this summer's cap would be around $70M. Utah offered him $8M/year or so. If you didn't think or know he was seeking close to a max for an entire year, you didn't know what he and his agents thought about his value.

SwishSquared

07-12-2015, 10:13 PM

Kanter's defense won't hurt that much when Ibaka plays. And if it does, OKC can go small or put Adams in.
Thunder just needs a 3rd scorer, a post scorer that can get baskets when KD and WB are being well guarded.

This team has a lot of versatility and unless they're not healthy, they will be contending for a ring.They were nearly a -4 per 100 possessions when Kanter & Adams played together. I don't think that pairing optimizes each player's strengths enough on either end honestly.

They made the trade banking on Kanter playing nearly all of his minutes next to Ibaka, which I understand. I also think they imagined he'd play significant mins in units with Roberson + Ibaka.

His offensive game will juice their scoring when either KD or Westbrook sits, which will help. He's just so bad in PnR you nearly have to send help every time. Maybe he improves, but I'm betting against that.

SwishSquared

07-12-2015, 10:14 PM

makes you wonder why teams won't do this to the Cavs and Tristan Thompson? mess with them and force them to pay him money he's nowhere close deserving of. everybody and their mom knows that the cavs won't let tristan go cuz of the lebron/rich Paul connection, the fact that they want to win and that they can't get anything back if they lose Tristan cuz of already being over the salary cap.Idk if you listen to the Dunc'd On podcast but that's exactly what they said they the Blazers should do tomorrow lol if they have no other use for their cap space.

Wouldn't shock me if some team tries that tactic.

Cowboy Thunder

07-12-2015, 11:25 PM

No one will be able to beat us 4 games out of 7.

So freaking stacked it's unreal. GOAT compilation of players.

What is this team missing? Everything is ready!

OKC = Titletown USA 2016

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Cowboy Thunder

07-12-2015, 11:27 PM

Cheap ass hick owner letting another player walk away.......:roll:

7:34pm

Why would they match it???? Dude overrrated......OKC FO at it again!!!!! :roll:

7:48 pm

clown :roll:

Cowboy Thunder

07-12-2015, 11:30 PM

http://imgur.com/s1ZszUV.jpg

Mamba approved.

ProfessorMurder

07-12-2015, 11:38 PM

Trade Harden to save money in two seasons, give Kanter the max :roll:

Westbrook0

07-12-2015, 11:40 PM

Trade Harden to save money in two seasons, give Kanter the max :roll:

It's only the max for one year. Then it's less than the max.

Cowboy Thunder

07-12-2015, 11:41 PM

"There's no question about it, Kanter is well paid. Overpaid, probably. But the Thunder are taking their turn at gaming the system, using ballooning league revenue to re-sign a player they otherwise would've had to let walk.

This is the only way the Thunder can really make additions to their roster outside of the draft. With Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka capping them out almost on their own, the Thunder's only real option is to grab restricted free agents they can re-sign via Bird rights. And while Kanter is costing them a pretty penny now, the Thunder aren't sweating it because of the previous years of planning."

http://espn.go.com/blog/okc-thunder/post/_/id/611/three-things-to-know-about-okc-signing-kanter

Akrazotile

07-12-2015, 11:42 PM

Blazers drove up the price just to be ***** :oldlol: :applause:

Now OKC is giving the max to one of the worst defenders in the league.

Just like the Lakers the past 10 years :oldlol:

imdaman99

07-12-2015, 11:43 PM

OKC refuses to pay Harden 14.5m, pays Kanter 17.5.
This is true but keep in mind of the time frame. The CAP is about to explode. OKC would pay Harden and hold onto him if he was currently on the team and a free agent next year. Everyone is gonna get more than they deserve from here on out.

Cowboy Thunder

07-12-2015, 11:45 PM

"Kanter is a 23-year-old double-double workhorse who gave the Thunder 18.7 points and 11.0 rebounds in 26 games last season. He provides the Thunder something they've never had to complement Westbrook and Durant, a low block monster who can be effective inside and out. Before Kanter arrived at the trade deadline in February, no Thunder center in the Oklahoma City era had ever produced a 20-point, 10-rebound game. Kanter had 11 in 26 games. (For a little more perspective, DeAndre Jordan had seven total last season. Dwight Howard had 11. Al Horford had seven. Blake Griffin had nine. Marc Gasol had eight. No, Kanter isn't better than all of them. But he does produce.)"

:banana: :banana: :banana:

Fudge

07-12-2015, 11:45 PM

Nice!

Presti is a god. OKC stays winning baby.

20/10 big man for that price. What a steal.

ProfessorMurder

07-12-2015, 11:48 PM

It's only the max for one year. Then it's less than the max.
Great rationale :rolleyes:

I'm going to max out Andre Miller this year. Then it'll be a good deal because the cap will go up.

Graviton

07-12-2015, 11:59 PM

http://i62.tinypic.com/2lliqv6.gif

Cowboy Thunder

07-13-2015, 12:08 AM

http://i62.tinypic.com/2lliqv6.gif

U not still rooting for the Hawks?

BlakFrankWhite

07-13-2015, 12:19 AM

this gonna look a bargain in few years.

Dirk 2.0

KiiiiNG

07-13-2015, 12:22 AM

Nice!

Presti is a god. OKC stays winning baby.

20/10 big man for that price. What a steal.
:applause:

Fudge

07-13-2015, 12:30 AM

:applause:
:cheers:

KiiiiNG

07-13-2015, 12:32 AM

:cheers:
:applause:

Westbrook0

07-13-2015, 12:36 AM

Great rationale :rolleyes:

I'm going to max out Andre Miller this year. Then it'll be a good deal because the cap will go up.

That's the general idea, yes, but you have to do it with a player who, in a couple of years, will be worth what the current max is at right now.

So guys like Reggie Jackson and Enes Kanter fit that mold, while Miller does not.

You get the concept though!

KG215

07-13-2015, 12:45 AM

They were nearly a -4 per 100 possessions when Kanter & Adams played together. I don't think that pairing optimizes each player's strengths enough on either end honestly.

They made the trade banking on Kanter playing nearly all of his minutes next to Ibaka, which I understand. I also think they imagined he'd play significant mins in units with Roberson + Ibaka.

His offensive game will juice their scoring when either KD or Westbrook sits, which will help. He's just so bad in PnR you nearly have to send help every time. Maybe he improves, but I'm betting against that.
And Durant. Duran't doesn't get enough credit for hid defensive impact in OKC's "switch everything" defensive schemes. I don't know if Donovan will employ the same strategy, but having all three of Ibaka, Roberson, and Durant on the floor gives a coach a lot of defensive flexibility because of the insane length, quickness, and versatility all three possess on the defensive end.

I'm not saying they're going to all fo a sudden turn Kanter into even a mediocre defender, but people need to at least wait see how Kanter looks if/when he's featured more heavily in lineups with OKC's best defensive players, something that rarely happened last season after he got traded.

And whoever said trading for Kanter led OKC out of the playoffs, like it was the sole thing responsible, is about as absurd/stupid of a stance to take on the whole ordeal as I've seen.

SwishSquared

07-13-2015, 01:01 AM

And Durant. Duran't doesn't get enough credit for hid defensive impact in OKC's "switch everything" defensive schemes. I don't know if Donovan will employ the same strategy, but having all three of Ibaka, Roberson, and Durant on the floor gives a coach a lot of defensive flexibility because of the insane length, quickness, and versatility all three possess on the defensive end.

I'm not saying they're going to all fo a sudden turn Kanter into even a mediocre defender, but people need to at least wait see how Kanter looks if/when he's featured more heavily in lineups with OKC's best defensive players, something that rarely happened last season after he got traded.

And whoever said trading for Kanter led OKC out of the playoffs, like it was the sole thing responsible, is about as absurd/stupid of a stance to take on the whole ordeal as I've seen.Yeah, I didn't mention Durant because he wasn't even going to play this past year. Going forward, they need to play their best 2 way guys with him, otherwise his lack of D will cost them games. Durant's an above average defender overall and having him back will boost all facets of OKC, but I think Roberson, Ibaka, and Adams are the backbone of that defense (not in that order). KD does his part and uses his length well on that end, but I wouldn't want to over-exert him defensively, coming off the foot injury, to make up for Kanter b/c he's so vital to making their offense amazing. His load on O will lighten up, which is great.

I'm assuming the starting 5 is Westbrook-Roberson-KD-Ibaka-Kanter. Unless Waiters or somebody else starts playing smart D more consistently, I think they'll continue starting Roberson for his ability to help and recover.

I honestly don't know what type of defense Donovan will implement, but they better have Kanter hang back in the paint. He needs the simplest coverage schemes because he can't move well laterally, gives such little effort, and needs to work on the mental aspects of D.

germanfellow

07-13-2015, 02:28 AM

not signing harden to a max deal because of worrying about the tax ... and now giving kanter 70mil?? sure looks like a move of historic genius!

dunksby

07-13-2015, 02:40 AM

I don't like it but I'm not gonna whine about keeping a promising big man, if Draymond Green and DJ are worth that much so is Kanter.

OG LeeTSkeeT

07-13-2015, 03:33 AM

OKC about to pay 70 million 4 years for enes kanter but didn't wanna give james harden 4 years 60 million. + luxury tax:facepalm

DMAVS41

07-13-2015, 11:59 AM

OKC about to pay 70 million 4 years for enes kanter but didn't wanna give james harden 4 years 60 million. + luxury tax:facepalm

It was absolutely not only the money as to why they traded Harden.

Everyone conveniently ignores both the chemistry issues with Harden/WB and Harden's desire to be a starter. Starting WB, Harden, and Durant would have led to issues on and off the court.

Ignoring that part of it is silly. This wasn't a Duncan, Manu, and Parker thing. It was 3 guys that want the ball....with one of them not bringing much value off the ball in WB offensively. Harden is hardly a guy that wants to be relegated to a spot up shooter....and having a player out there that forces the Thunder to go away from WB messes with his head....and that wasn't a good thing for the long term future of the Thunder.

Also, the money is completely different now. Back in 13 to now? The market has shifted and with the cap coming....4 years 70 million is just completely different. Also, the Thunder will only pay the tax this year and will be under it next year. The Harden signing, iirc, would have put them in the tax multiple years in a row.

And lastly, why does everyone ignore that the 13 Thunder without Harden were clearly a better team than the 12 Thunder? If you guys really want to have this debate....you have to acknowledge that. You have to acknowledge the crappy moves Presti has made since that Harden trade. Those have been far more detrimental than losing Harden on a team that would never have allowed him to play his optimal level....and would have prevented WB/Durant playing their optimal level as well.

WB/Durant playing at their optimal levels with a better built out team around them is better than a big 3 with a thin team around them....or so I would argue.

PP34Deuce

07-13-2015, 12:34 PM

Not surprised, but kinda sad they did, would have loved to see him in Portland.

I give Portland props for atleast attempting to make a splash, at least trying to gain some assets.

In the process we hurt OKCs cap space and put them into the luxury tax. :cheers:

Blazers win

Actually Kanter is on the right team that masks his deficiencies defensively. OKC has a balance now.

KNOW1EDGE

07-13-2015, 12:43 PM

BlakFrankWhite

07-13-2015, 12:46 PM

We are unstoppable

5 peat incoming

KNOW1EDGE

07-13-2015, 12:53 PM

We are unstoppable

5 peat incoming

No excuses, Simon.

Fudge

07-13-2015, 12:57 PM

Haters on a full blown meltdown. :yaohappy:

OKC stays winning.

KNOW1EDGE

07-13-2015, 12:59 PM

Haters on a full blown meltdown. :yaohappy:

OKC stays winning.

What do you mean by this?

I haven't seen anyone overreact either way.

Nobody has been "hating" on anything.

wpdougie2180

07-13-2015, 01:04 PM

Didn't the 2012 Thunder go to the Finals with Westbrook, Harden & Durant? Have they made the Finals since?

DMAVS41

07-13-2015, 01:10 PM

DMavs- that's a great post and something that I think people overlook or forget.

James Harden was coming off the bench in OKC and would have been a horrible fit in the starting line-up. It would be counterproductive to put Harden in the starting line-up and he is wayyy too good to be coming off the bench. Yes, they may have not got as good of value in return for Harden, but they basically had no choice but to trade him or Westbrook. Fault them for picking the wrong guy, but one of them had to go.

The only thing I don't know about is if OKC was better the following year after losing Harden. Idk what their record looked like or how they looked on court, I just find it hard to believe they'd get worse. Idk tho

Well, they improved on both sides of the ball...and it really allowed KD/WB to play at their optimal levels.

It's hard because Presti has ****ed up since 13 imo....and there have been injuries as well....so it's tough to analyze is it.

It could go either way, but I think people conveniently ignore this:

12 Thunder....47-19 record....2nd offense/11th defense....chemistry issues with WB/Harden...and confusion over well defined player roles (imo)

13 Thunder....60-22 record....best offense/4th defense....WB/Durant playing at optimal or near optimal levels

DMAVS41

07-13-2015, 01:17 PM

Didn't the 2012 Thunder go to the Finals with Westbrook, Harden & Durant? Have they made the Finals since?

See, this is my point.

WB and Durant have missed two of those playoffs.

In 14 Ibaka was hurt and Presti royally ****ed up by not bringing in a serviceable 2 guard to play on that team. He should have traded for Afflalo or Meeks or somebody....he ran with Fisher/Butler for a combined 38 minutes per game in the playoffs. Just ****ing awful.

So....your analysis is way too simplistic in my opinion. Not sure how ignoring WB missing the playoffs in 13, Ibaka's injury / Presti's **** up in 14, and Durant's injury in 15 get ignored.

Lets at least not pretend like the Thunder have been healthy and just failing in the playoffs since that trade.

A fair argument to be made is that even with injuries...with Harden, they could have done better. I think that might be a good point and might have some truth to it...I just wonder if the chemistry/role issues wouldn't have caused serious damage though...and I still don't think the Thunder a lock to do much with an injured WB and Durant those years.

KG215

07-13-2015, 01:20 PM

Didn't the 2012 Thunder go to the Finals with Westbrook, Harden & Durant? Have they made the Finals since?
Excellent point and excellent question. Of course the answer is no, and untimely injuries to key players in the playoffs played no role whatsoever.

HurricaneKid

07-13-2015, 01:23 PM

And Durant. Duran't doesn't get enough credit for hid defensive impact in OKC's "switch everything" defensive schemes. I don't know if Donovan will employ the same strategy, but having all three of Ibaka, Roberson, and Durant on the floor gives a coach a lot of defensive flexibility because of the insane length, quickness, and versatility all three possess on the defensive end.

I'm not saying they're going to all fo a sudden turn Kanter into even a mediocre defender, but people need to at least wait see how Kanter looks if/when he's featured more heavily in lineups with OKC's best defensive players, something that rarely happened last season after he got traded.

And whoever said trading for Kanter led OKC out of the playoffs, like it was the sole thing responsible, is about as absurd/stupid of a stance to take on the whole ordeal as I've seen.

Kanter wasn't responsible for them missing the playoffs. But the team was worse with him on the floor than without. So giving him credit for his box score successes is a little silly when he made them a worse team.

There are two reasons I don't like him. First off is his defense. His career DBPM is the worst of any player ever. Seriously. The worst of all time. In a big game at the end of the season with 4:00 to play in the 4th quarter his teammates had to stop him and teach him how to play a PnR. Thats simply indefensible. He has been in the league for 4 years. He is not only slow of foot and has no awareness, he doesn't care. And that will only be exascerbated in the playoffs. I truly do not believe he is playable in the playoffs. Teams will put him in the middle of PnRs and go at him personally until OKC relents. And they will have to.

The other reason is that KD seems ready made to slide into the 4 with Ibaka at the 5 it so definitely fits the new NBA. It would also give RWB so much more space as having a 5 that can hit corner 3s at a good clip is incredibly rare and valuable.

I do feel bad in that the cap made this almost a necessity as there was no other way to add talent. But I HATE the deal moving forward. I have been on a mission to explain the impact of the new financial constraints but this is such a significant overpay its going to hurt, even with the cap skyrocketing.

wpdougie2180

07-13-2015, 01:23 PM

Excellent point and excellent question. Of course the answer is now and untimely injuries to key players in the playoffs played no role whatsoever.

At the end of the day it's about results & the answer is Yes and No the reasons are valid but the results speak for themselves.

DMAVS41

07-13-2015, 01:24 PM

As for Kanter....I'm just not ready to write off a 23 year old kid that hasn't played in a good basketball situation yet.

I completely agree with and acknowledge his many defensive issues and agree that his physical limitations are going to prevent him from ever being an even average defender.

However, playing next to Ibaka/Roberson/Durant/WB...and others....is literally the perfect situation for him on both sides of the ball. He'll have single coverage on offense and he'll be playing next to the best complimentary defenders for him in the league imo.

I am not sold on his ability to make the defense good enough in the playoffs when teams can really game plan for him, but I'm not ready to write him off either.

I'd rather have Kanter on this team quite clearly than Reggie Jackson (even though I liked Reggie)...and given the Thunder's situation...I don't see a better alternative.

I also don't think the contract is bad for them. Unless I'm missing something...they will only pay the tax this year and won't be a repeat offender.

He'll be a situation type player for this team. He'll be a nice luxury to have in many spots.

To me, the biggest issue with this Thunder team is Waiters. I just wouldn't want that guy on a contending team unless he completely changes his outlook on the game.

I'd move him for something...pretty much anything that could help my team if possible.

If you have WB/KD...all you want around them is guys that can shoot and defend....and having 1 low post threat (Kanter) is a nice new wrinkle. You don't want a guy like Waiters imo.

BlakFrankWhite

07-13-2015, 01:24 PM

DURANT WESTBROOK IBAKA KANTER

Greatest big 4 EVER

KG215

07-13-2015, 01:26 PM

At the end of the day it's about results & the answer is Yes and No the reasons are valid but the results speak for themselves.
No, not really, If someone else other than Westbrook had gotten hurt in the 2013 playoffs or Ibaka in the 2014 playoffs, then your point might be valid.

DMAVS41

07-13-2015, 01:26 PM

At the end of the day it's about results & the answer is Yes and No the reasons are valid but the results speak for themselves.

Actually this isn't true.

Pretending like trading Harden made WB, Ibaka, and Durant suffer injuries is an extremely slippery slope and basically means anything can cause anything when building a team....thinking like that is counter productive imo.

We should actually be able to analyze what happened.

West-Side

07-13-2015, 01:29 PM

HurricaneKid

07-13-2015, 01:35 PM

See, this is my point.

WB and Durant have missed two of those playoffs.

In 14 Ibaka was hurt and Presti royally ****ed up by not bringing in a serviceable 2 guard to play on that team. He should have traded for Afflalo or Meeks or somebody....he ran with Fisher/Butler for a combined 38 minutes per game in the playoffs. Just ****ing awful.

So....your analysis is way too simplistic in my opinion. Not sure how ignoring WB missing the playoffs in 13, Ibaka's injury / Presti's **** up in 14, and Durant's injury in 15 get ignored.

Lets at least not pretend like the Thunder have been healthy and just failing in the playoffs since that trade.

A fair argument to be made is that even with injuries...with Harden, they could have done better. I think that might be a good point and might have some truth to it...I just wonder if the chemistry/role issues wouldn't have caused serious damage though...and I still don't think the Thunder a lock to do much with an injured WB and Durant those years.

You are defending the OKC trade of Harden by saying how OKC then had a huge gap at the 2 and that caused postseason failures? I'm getting dizzy...

Yes, there were redundancies in skill sets. And the three of them together weren't as good as their skill sets should have added up to. But they WERE outstanding together. And having Harden would have absolutely helped them through the injuries you are blaming (and correctly so). So much of their improvement is just the normal aging curve and young players getting better. And they would have been getting better together. What could have been a dynasty is now grasping on to one last shot at a title in a strikingly competitive WC by paying a 1 way C max money.

And the "chemistry" issues don't exist. The three of them are still close and we have seen reports that both RWB and KD want to play with Harden in the future. I think Harden would be a fun dude to hang with.

Fudge

07-13-2015, 01:36 PM

What do you mean by this?

I haven't seen anyone overreact either way.

Nobody has been "hating" on anything.
You are furious right now.

Everything will be okay, guys.

DMAVS41

07-13-2015, 01:40 PM

You are defending the OKC trade of Harden by saying how OKC then had a huge gap at the 2 and that caused postseason failures? I'm getting dizzy...

Yes, there were redundancies in skill sets. And the three of them together weren't as good as their skill sets should have added up to. But they WERE outstanding together. And having Harden would have absolutely helped them through the injuries you are blaming (and correctly so). So much of their improvement is just the normal aging curve and young players getting better. And they would have been getting better together. What could have been a dynasty is now grasping on to one last shot at a title in a strikingly competitive WC by paying a 1 way C max money.

And the "chemistry" issues don't exist. The three of them are still close and we have seen reports that both RWB and KD want to play with Harden in the future. I think Harden would be a fun dude to hang with.

Yea...this is where I disagree.

They didn't have that hole in 13 with freaking Kevin Martin/Thabo....LOL

Another thing people ignore...Thabo declined in 14...he couldn't give them what he used to.

Presti not giving them something better than ****ing Butler/Fisher in 14 is simply unrelated to the Harden trade. It was related to him getting cute and not going for what his team needed.

I also disagree with the normal curve you are referencing. I agree guys would naturally improve, but there is only 1 ball and Harden/Durant/WB need that ball.

They are all 25 plus point per game guys playing at their optimal levels...Durant more near 30...and that is impossible with all 3 of them playing starter level minutes.

Also really disagree about the chemistry stuff. It was already impacting the team as early as 11...and Harden made no secret about his desires. You can be good friends and still have issues on the court...there isn't a straight line connection there.

And could have been a dynasty? Again...how? They lost in 12.

Are you saying they win the title without WB in 13 and in 15 without Durant?

They probably win in 14, but by no means are they a lock to beat that Spurs team with Harden and the potential issues his ball dominance and lack of defense bring to that team.

The only way you get to a dynasty is if you say nobody ever gets hurt...and the problem with that....is that the Thunder could have won 2 titles these last 3 years without Harden and full health anyway.

So I don't think that argument makes sense.

iamgine

07-13-2015, 01:42 PM

I'm sure they can turn him into a serviceable defender with some effort. Westbrook's gonna CP3 him otherwise.

SwishSquared

07-13-2015, 01:57 PM

Well, they improved on both sides of the ball...and it really allowed KD/WB to play at their optimal levels.

It's hard because Presti has ****ed up since 13 imo....and there have been injuries as well....so it's tough to analyze is it.

It could go either way, but I think people conveniently ignore this:

12 Thunder....47-19 record....2nd offense/11th defense....chemistry issues with WB/Harden...and confusion over well defined player roles (imo)

13 Thunder....60-22 record....best offense/4th defense....WB/Durant playing at optimal or near optimal levelsThe package he was traded for wasn't commensurate with his value- that's the biggest problem. This is akin to trading Cousins for Anthony Morrow, peak Jodie Meeks, Mozgov, and young Nick Collison.

The trade allowed WB & KD to step up into roles that gave them the offensive touches they craved and gave them a complementary 6th man who just spotted up and shot 3s. I actually thought Harden was decent defensively his last year in OKC, especially compared to his first year in Houston. I'd attribute their defensive jump to internal improvements- I doubt Kevin Martin and rookie Jeremy Lamb helped that team out *that* much on that end. Thabo played like 6mpg more, which maybe helped them improve that defensive ranking.

I think if they amnestied Perkins, they actually wouldn't have paid the tax anymore times than they have now had they kept Harden. Maybe the bill would have been more last year, but it's also notable that nobody anticipated the cap jumping up this much year-over-year prior to the cap spike next summer (which wasn't definite at the time either).

I saw one writer say OKC faces a tax bill up to $40M this upcoming season while another estimate said $27.5M (maybe that assumed they cut some guys).

I do think Presti really failed to capitalize on the assets he got in that Harden trade to improve this team. They could have landed a guy like Wilson Chaldner, Affalo, etc. for this squad to boost production at SG.

As far as Kanter goes- he's a luxury to play for 25mpg where he can juice this offense even more, but he takes mins away from guys like Adams, McGary (if he ever develops he needs some burn or trade him for a real SG), and from imo deadly small ball units where KD/Ibaka are the PF/C.

Is that luxury worth $17.5M/year? I'm betting no, even when the cap jumps. He seemed pouty if he didn't get enough touches or minutes in Utah, but hopefully his max deal keeps him quiet since he's a 3rd/4th option on a title contender. I say they should try to close games in a small ball unit since Kanter will be put into a PnR down the stretch for sure every playoff game.

I think OKC can really run teams off the floor playing small this year, especially if they had another 3&D wing who could stretch the floor and switch on D. Maybe they move a combo of their young guys to get this player.

They have to keep Kanter b/c they can't replace his talent this year, so it's smart they matched. If anything, it proves to KD they will spend to put together the best possible collection of talent in hopes of winning the title.

I was in favor of this trade at the deadline, but hated the Waiters deal. He wasn't worth a 1st round pick. Shump + JR would have been better for this squad honestly. In fact, OKC backed off trading one of their 2014 1st rounders for Shump b/c NYK demanded the inclusion of Felton. Wouldn't it have been smarter to take Felton on anyway, give up #29 (Huestis pick), and then trade Felton in a package for a different player, or at worst, stretch his deal? They're likely stretching Novak anyway, who makes the same $$$.

DMAVS41

07-13-2015, 02:07 PM

The package he was traded for wasn't commensurate with his value- that's the biggest problem. This is akin to trading Cousins for Anthony Morrow, peak Jodie Meeks, Mozgov, and young Nick Collison.

The trade allowed WB & KD to step up into roles that gave them the offensive touches they craved and gave them a complementary 6th man who just spotted up and shot 3s. I actually thought Harden was decent defensively his last year in OKC, especially compared to his first year in Houston. I'd attribute their defensive jump to internal improvements- I doubt Kevin Martin and rookie Jeremy Lamb helped that team out *that* much on that end. Thabo played like 6mpg more, which maybe helped them improve that defensive ranking.

I think if they amnestied Perkins, they actually wouldn't have paid the tax anymore times than they have now had they kept Harden. Maybe the bill would have been more last year, but it's also notable that nobody anticipated the cap jumping up this much year-over-year prior to the cap spike next summer (which wasn't definite at the time either).

I saw one writer say OKC faces a tax bill up to $40M this upcoming season while another estimate said $27.5M (maybe that assumed they cut some guys).

I do think Presti really failed to capitalize on the assets he got in that Harden trade to improve this team. They could have landed a guy like Wilson Chaldner, Affalo, etc. for this squad to boost production at SG.

As far as Kanter goes- he's a luxury to play for 25mpg where he can juice this offense even more, but he takes mins away from guys like Adams, McGary (if he ever develops he needs some burn or trade him for a real SG), and from imo deadly small ball units where KD/Ibaka are the PF/C.

Is that luxury worth $17.5M/year? I'm betting no, even when the cap jumps. He seemed pouty if he didn't get enough touches or minutes in Utah, but hopefully his max deal keeps him quiet since he's a 3rd/4th option on a title contender. I say they should try to close games in a small ball unit since Kanter will be put into a PnR down the stretch for sure every playoff game.

I think OKC can really run teams off the floor playing small this year, especially if they had another 3&D wing who could stretch the floor and switch on D. Maybe they move a combo of their young guys to get this player.

They have to keep Kanter b/c they can't replace his talent this year, so it's smart they matched. If anything, it proves to KD they will spend to put together the best possible collection of talent in hopes of winning the title.

I was in favor of this trade at the deadline, but hated the Waiters deal. He wasn't worth a 1st round pick. Shump + JR would have been better for this squad honestly. In fact, OKC backed off trading one of their 2014 1st rounders for Shump b/c NYK demanded the inclusion of Felton. Wouldn't it have been smarter to take Felton on anyway, give up #29 (Huestis pick), and then trade Felton in a package for a different player, or at worst, stretch his deal? They're likely stretching Novak anyway, who makes the same $$$.

It wasn't in the immediate short term, but part of what made that deal attractive was it allowed them to remain a top contender while also adding roster flexibility. Martin was on an expiring contract.

For me it's very simple. What do I want next to WB/Durant on the basketball court. Do I want Harden...or do I want a guy like Steven Adams and 2 solid role players? I want the role players for all the reasons I've said.

I agree with most of what you say, and I've hammered Presti as well.

I just don't think we are sitting here talking like this, at all, if WB/Durant/Ibaka all don't get hurt at horrible times....and if Presti doesn't wet the bed in 14 with Butler/Fisher.

There was nothing preventing him for going out and trading for Afflalo or Meeks or someone to play some sg minutes on that team. The Harden trade did not cause the injuries and it didn't cause Presti to make some really dumb moves after the fact imo.

We agree with Waiters. Just seems absurdly stupid you'd be willing to trade for that guy, but not Afflalo when you had the chance.

Presti overvalues his own draft picks and it really bit them in the ass in 14 like I said.

You might not be saying it, but others have, there was no dynasty potential here over the last 3 years with Harden unless you magically make everyone healthy....and I don't think that is a fair argument....because full health without Harden...the same argument can be made.

And again, without Harden...the Thunder were simply better in 13 and 14 than they were in 11 and 12 with him.

BlakFrankWhite

07-13-2015, 02:28 PM

Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6 but 7 championship

THUNDER WILL DECIDE

TiagoSimoes

07-13-2015, 02:39 PM

And lastly, why does everyone ignore that the 13 Thunder without Harden were clearly a better team than the 12 Thunder?

Something everyone is always quick to ignore. OKC's problem isnt not having harden

TiagoSimoes

07-13-2015, 02:41 PM

The only thing I don't know about is if OKC was better the following year after losing Harden. Idk what their record looked like or how they looked on court, I just find it hard to believe they'd get worse. Idk tho

well talent wise i think we got worse, but the overall defence improved considerably(first year OKC was elite at that end), and kevin martin ended up being a great fit. KD west and ibaka also expanded their roles and improved.

the problem was not finding proper role players after harden left

HurricaneKid

07-13-2015, 02:42 PM

It wasn't in the immediate short term, but part of what made that deal attractive was it allowed them to remain a top contender while also adding roster flexibility. Martin was on an expiring contract.

For me it's very simple. What do I want next to WB/Durant on the basketball court. Do I want Harden...or do I want a guy like Steven Adams and 2 solid role players? I want the role players for all the reasons I've said.

I agree with most of what you say, and I've hammered Presti as well.

I just don't think we are sitting here talking like this, at all, if WB/Durant/Ibaka all don't get hurt at horrible times....and if Presti doesn't wet the bed in 14 with Butler/Fisher.

There was nothing preventing him for going out and trading for Afflalo or Meeks or someone to play some sg minutes on that team. The Harden trade did not cause the injuries and it didn't cause Presti to make some really dumb moves after the fact imo.

We agree with Waiters. Just seems absurdly stupid you'd be willing to trade for that guy, but not Afflalo when you had the chance.

Presti overvalues his own draft picks and it really bit them in the ass in 14 like I said.

You might not be saying it, but others have, there was no dynasty potential here over the last 3 years with Harden unless you magically make everyone healthy....and I don't think that is a fair argument....because full health without Harden...the same argument can be made.

And again, without Harden...the Thunder were simply better in 13 and 14 than they were in 11 and 12 with him.

You would rather have Adams, Lamb and Martin for 1 year? Are you for serious? They are about to GIVE AWAY Lamb. For nothing. So you get a shooter for one year and a backup big for a top 3 player. And you are defending that. You are wrong here and you need to admit it.

You want as much talent on the team as possible. And you are falling into the same trap Presti did. He thought you built around two superstars when the playoffs has increasingly become about taking a few things away from your opponent.

One of the reasons for the injuries is that there are so few offensive players on that team. They wear through KD and RWB because they are it. There are plenty of touches available for a well coached team for three guys to be getting, depending on matchups, 32 min of being one of the two players to go through. KD and Harden could easily use 4-5 min of breathers just waiting for catch and shoot 3s. Its not like they couldn't have gotten more creative than that either. If anything, Brooks' willingness to just go ISO all the time caused quite a bit of the "conflict". And I still think you are overstating it. The reason Harden wanted his own club was because OKC wasn't putting him in positions to be effective, then lowballing him in negotiations because of it. If they would have just given him the 4/58 he had coming there wouldn't have been any "conflict".

They were better because in 2012 there 4 best players were 22, 23, 22, 23. Show me another team that has ever made the Finals with zero core players 24 or older. Of course they got better. They still had 3 developing superstars.

SwishSquared

07-13-2015, 02:50 PM

It wasn't in the immediate short term, but part of what made that deal attractive was it allowed them to remain a top contender while also adding roster flexibility. Martin was on an expiring contract.

For me it's very simple. What do I want next to WB/Durant on the basketball court. Do I want Harden...or do I want a guy like Steven Adams and 2 solid role players? I want the role players for all the reasons I've said.

I agree with most of what you say, and I've hammered Presti as well.

I just don't think we are sitting here talking like this, at all, if WB/Durant/Ibaka all don't get hurt at horrible times....and if Presti doesn't wet the bed in 14 with Butler/Fisher.

There was nothing preventing him for going out and trading for Afflalo or Meeks or someone to play some sg minutes on that team. The Harden trade did not cause the injuries and it didn't cause Presti to make some really dumb moves after the fact imo.

We agree with Waiters. Just seems absurdly stupid you'd be willing to trade for that guy, but not Afflalo when you had the chance.

Presti overvalues his own draft picks and it really bit them in the ass in 14 like I said.

You might not be saying it, but others have, there was no dynasty potential here over the last 3 years with Harden unless you magically make everyone healthy....and I don't think that is a fair argument....because full health without Harden...the same argument can be made.

And again, without Harden...the Thunder were simply better in 13 and 14 than they were in 11 and 12 with him.They presumably hit on the draft picks they acquired in that trade in Adams and McGary (and they got Roberson, Huestis,and Payne with their own picks since Harden was traded), but here's the thing- they could have signed a bench C&S 3 point specialist who didn't play D using an exception (MLE, BAE, et.) and kept Harden for that season. It's fine to trade him later, but for the appropriate haul. The only difference for that specific team after the trade was the inclusion of Lamb and Martin. They already had Thabo under contract and Perkins was still their C (Adams drafted in 2013 of course).

Lamb wasn't even a regular rotation guy and Martin fit perfectly on offense, but skipped town immediately afterward. They at minimum should have done a 3-way S&T that summer to land Reddick when they lost Martin. I don't think trading Harden to land a rental of an offensive specialist made sense.

I would have given Harden a 4-year max (weren't they a couple million per year apart?)and dealt with making the pieces fit later. I hate to make this comparison, but the same way 3 high usage guys teamed up in Miami, OKC should have kept Harden for 2012-2013 if no better offers materialized and moved him later to build around WB/KD/Ibaka. To just throw a team out there- what would Denver have given OKC for Harden (assuming he was still there) in 2013 after they lost Iggy? I'd wager a lot more than what the Thunder ultimately got.

Sorry for rambling and I'm not disagreeing with what you've been saying, especially the role player argument, but I'm trying to clarify my position here.

Also, OKC at most would have won 1 title. The injuries, like you've been saying, all hit every season at weird times, which wrecked their title hopes. You can't predict these types of injuries imo, so it's not like they would have 3-peated with Harden.

Presti really messed up getting more wing help, which I know we've been saying to each our for over a year haha, and it shows now. It really does- Felton+ Huestis is well worth the price to pay for a legit SG (Shumpert), which would have made up for the other botched moves Presti made following the Harden trade.

Westbrook-Shump-Roberson-KD-Ibaka is a very dangerous small ball lineup on both ends imo. Great defensive switching potential and open driving lines for WB/KD. In fact, they could give GSW's ulta-small ball lineup a run for their money with that.

dunksby

07-13-2015, 02:58 PM

Stupidity at its finest.
The same people who keep repeating that shit are the same people who shit on Harden and call him a choker, fraud etc.

Crown&Coke

07-13-2015, 03:04 PM

SwishSquared

07-13-2015, 03:07 PM

They had to match. KD is going to enter free agency. They can now tell him "we are willing to pay luxury tax to field a winning team" even if they have been adamantly against it.

They couldn't say that before this deal.

But Portland really did mess with them good. That trade kicker means OKC will have to pay 15% if they trade Kanter, before the new CBA the new team had to pay it.

and Kanter can't get dealt this year since OKC matched an offer sheetThat's a great point about the trade kicker. I forgot that the old CBA said the receiving team paid it.

They can trade Kanter though during this year, but he has to consent to it. I think at the conclusion of the 2015-2016 season, that no-trade clause expires.

DMAVS41

07-13-2015, 03:12 PM

They presumably hit on the draft picks they acquired in that trade in Adams and McGary (and they got Roberson, Huestis,and Payne with their own picks since Harden was traded), but here's the thing- they could have signed a bench C&S 3 point specialist who didn't play D using an exception (MLE, BAE, et.) and kept Harden for that season. It's fine to trade him later, but for the appropriate haul. The only difference for that specific team after the trade was the inclusion of Lamb and Martin. They already had Thabo under contract and Perkins was still their C (Adams drafted in 2013 of course).

Lamb wasn't even a regular rotation guy and Martin fit perfectly on offense, but skipped town immediately afterward. They at minimum should have done a 3-way S&T that summer to land Reddick when they lost Martin. I don't think trading Harden to land a rental of an offensive specialist made sense.

I would have given Harden a 4-year max (weren't they a couple million per year apart?)and dealt with making the pieces fit later. I hate to make this comparison, but the same way 3 high usage guys teamed up in Miami, OKC should have kept Harden for 2012-2013 if no better offers materialized and moved him later to build around WB/KD/Ibaka. To just throw a team out there- what would Denver have given OKC for Harden (assuming he was still there) in 2013 after they lost Iggy? I'd wager a lot more than what the Thunder ultimately got.

Sorry for rambling and I'm not disagreeing with what you've been saying, especially the role player argument, but I'm trying to clarify my position here.

Also, OKC at most would have won 1 title. The injuries, like you've been saying, all hit every season at weird times, which wrecked their title hopes. You can't predict these types of injuries imo, so it's not like they would have 3-peated with Harden.

Presti really messed up getting more wing help, which I know we've been saying to each our for over a year haha, and it shows now. It really does- Felton+ Huestis is well worth the price to pay for a legit SG (Shumpert), which would have made up for the other botched moves Presti made following the Harden trade.

Westbrook-Shump-Roberson-KD-Ibaka is a very dangerous small ball lineup on both ends imo. Great defensive switching potential and open driving lines for WB/KD. In fact, they could give GSW's ulta-small ball lineup a run for their money with that.

Yea, let me be clear...I'm not saying that keeping Harden would have been stupid or something at all.

I'm just saying I think it made a lot of sense and I actually liked the package they got because it kept them as a top contender in 13...and that team turned out to be even better than anyone expected for a variety of reasons.

I see what you are saying about a 3 way trade, but a lot of this was done for money purposes (again, the Perkins amnesty clearly made a lot of sense and we all agree there)...

But that just reinforces my conclusion. That Presti has made many other mistakes that I don't think are directly related to the Harden trade.

I think they win in 14 with Harden assuming there are no on/off court issues (I seriously doubt this would have been the case, but I'll grant it here for the sake of argument)...but I also think they win in 14 if Presti trades for Afflalo.

Presti got too cute and he valued his future draft picks too heavily. I can defend everything up until 14 and see the logic behind it....I can't do that for 14 and beyond.

Thinking that an injured Thabo, Fisher, and Butler would be good enough for that 14 team just is delusional. Straight up delusional....

Nastradamus

07-13-2015, 03:17 PM

Good chance Kanter is better over the next 4 years than LMA

SwishSquared

07-13-2015, 03:39 PM

Yea, let me be clear...I'm not saying that keeping Harden would have been stupid or something at all.

I'm just saying I think it made a lot of sense and I actually liked the package they got because it kept them as a top contender in 13...and that team turned out to be even better than anyone expected for a variety of reasons.

I see what you are saying about a 3 way trade, but a lot of this was done for money purposes (again, the Perkins amnesty clearly made a lot of sense and we all agree there)...

But that just reinforces my conclusion. That Presti has made many other mistakes that I don't think are directly related to the Harden trade.

I think they win in 14 with Harden assuming there are no on/off court issues (I seriously doubt this would have been the case, but I'll grant it here for the sake of argument)...but I also think they win in 14 if Presti trades for Afflalo.

Presti got too cute and he valued his future draft picks too heavily. I can defend everything up until 14 and see the logic behind it....I can't do that for 14 and beyond.

Thinking that an injured Thabo, Fisher, and Butler would be good enough for that 14 team just is delusional. Straight up delusional....He did a good job of filling out that roster in 1 day in time for 2012-2013, but he dropped the ball in free agency in 2013. Not replacing Martin was stupid, unless he thought Lamb would be able to fill that role (it seems that was the case, else why he sat on his hands is beyond me). Martin was also a consummate 4th option, but as soon as WB went down in the playoffs that year, he was basically toast imo. They had no title shot regardless, but he really underwhelmed performance-wise, unless I'm mixing up series/players.

Getting Morrow for the mini-MLE was a good deal last summer, considering Meeks got basically double, but he still didn't do enough to upgrade the wing position. I still think he hasn't done a good enough job of that. I'd rather be paying Shump $10M/year now than Kanter $17.5M/year going forward.

The money-driven moves have cost this squad from reaching its potential, aside from the injuries. They waited too long to move Perkins, didn't replace Martin, and cheaped out on acquiring guys via trade that were beyond their rookie deals. I get Presti can only do what ownership allows, but dang, it legit cost them a title I think. It seems we both agree that an upgrade on the perimeter in 2014 would make OKC strong enough to beat the Heat.

I wasn't trying to say you thought keeping Harden was stupid, if previous post made it sound like that- just that the package wasn't good enough for me to move him. Presti kept the roster financially flexible, but he did little with that flexibility and it hurt their potential to reach their ceiling. I think I would have risked being fired for keeping Harden (and paying the tax) for that year and moving him later. It's easy for me to play armchair GM now, but I still felt that was a bad long-term move at the time.

My point, I suppose, has been that the Harden trade itself started a string of bad moves, whether trades (Waiters) or lack of activity in FA. They wasted the Heustis pick, I'm assuming wasting a future pick for Waiters, and are overpaying a big man now b/c they didn't acquire a more important piece imo for this squad- the 3&D wing.

Adams and McGary were great picks though. Roberson is a useful NBA defender and Payne should be a very good backup PG, if not more. They still could have done more overall to me.

Totally agree about him getting too cute about his picks and majority of his moves since 2014.

DMAVS41

07-13-2015, 03:49 PM

He did a good job of filling out that roster in 1 day in time for 2012-2013, but he dropped the ball in free agency in 2013. Not replacing Martin was stupid, unless he thought Lamb would be able to fill that role (it seems that was the case, else why he sat on his hands is beyond me). Martin was also a consummate 4th option, but as soon as WB went down in the playoffs that year, he was basically toast imo. They had no title shot regardless, but he really underwhelmed performance-wise, unless I'm mixing up series/players.

Getting Morrow for the mini-MLE was a good deal last summer, considering Meeks got basically double, but he still didn't do enough to upgrade the wing position. I still think he hasn't done a good enough job of that. I'd rather be paying Shump $10M/year now than Kanter $17.5M/year going forward.

The money-driven moves have cost this squad from reaching its potential, aside from the injuries. They waited too long to move Perkins, didn't replace Martin, and cheaped out on acquiring guys via trade that were beyond their rookie deals. I get Presti can only do what ownership allows, but dang, it legit cost them a title I think. It seems we both agree that an upgrade on the perimeter in 2014 would make OKC strong enough to beat the Heat.

I wasn't trying to say you thought keeping Harden was stupid, if previous post made it sound like that- just that the package wasn't good enough for me to move him. Presti kept the roster financially flexible, but he did little with that flexibility and it hurt their potential to reach their ceiling. I think I would have risked being fired for keeping Harden (and paying the tax) for that year and moving him later. It's easy for me to play armchair GM now, but I still felt that was a bad long-term move at the time.

My point, I suppose, has been that the Harden trade itself started a string of bad moves, whether trades (Waiters) or lack of activity in FA. They wasted the Heustis pick, I'm assuming wasting a future pick for Waiters, and are overpaying a big man now b/c they didn't acquire a more important piece imo for this squad- the 3&D wing. Adams and McGary were great picks though. Roberson is a useful NBA defender and Payne should be a very good backup PG, if not more. They still could have done more overall to me.

Totally agree about him getting too cute about his picks and majority of his moves since 2014.

It seems like our only real disagreement on this is about when we would have traded him. I would have traded him before the 13 season like Presti did.

And we both agree that if a team is going to lose WB and Durant in the playoffs...you aren't winning given the the hyper competitive nature of the league from 13 to present.

We'll see...I feel like the evidence of a healthy Thunder team in both 13 and 14 is really strong evidence for my side of this debate.

I fully grant that players get better naturally and that was part of the reason for improvement, but I also think people tend to discount what it was like for WB/Durant playing their optimal style...etc.

Lets be honest...Harden didn't make dramatic improvements to his game in the summer of 12 after the finals. He was simply ready to be a 25/5/5 high efficiency type guy...just like he was in 12. The problem is, he'd never be close to that on the Thunder because there simply would not have been enough shots to around.

So given the conditions of money and the basketball fit...give me the team built around WB/Durant with better role players than a top heavy big 3 that I don't think fits all that well when push comes to shove.

Having said that...I would much rather have kept Harden than do what Presti has done since 13. So like I said...I can't defend him past the 13 season.

SwishSquared

07-13-2015, 04:10 PM

It seems like our only real disagreement on this is about when we would have traded him. I would have traded him before the 13 season like Presti did.

And we both agree that if a team is going to lose WB and Durant in the playoffs...you aren't winning given the the hyper competitive nature of the league from 13 to present.

We'll see...I feel like the evidence of a healthy Thunder team in both 13 and 14 is really strong evidence for my side of this debate.

I fully grant that players get better naturally and that was part of the reason for improvement, but I also think people tend to discount what it was like for WB/Durant playing their optimal style...etc.

Lets be honest...Harden didn't make dramatic improvements to his game in the summer of 12 after the finals. He was simply ready to be a 25/5/5 high efficiency type guy...just like he was in 12. The problem is, he'd never be close to that on the Thunder because there simply would not have been enough shots to around.

So given the conditions of money and the basketball fit...give me the team built around WB/Durant with better role players than a top heavy big 3 that I don't think fits all that well when push comes to shove.

Having said that...I would much rather have kept Harden than do what Presti has done since 13. So like I said...I can't defend him past the 13 season.True- I would have maxed him and kept him until I found a deal that I felt valued him properly. They wanted Klay or Beal for him, and those teams didn't budge. Because of that, instead of settling for Houston's eventual package, I would have kept him.

I would have changed coaches, too, so maybe that would have made him feel more comfortable being on that squad for just that season. Maybe Thabo doesn't break down as fast not having to play 25% more minutes per game following the Harden trade if JH is still on that team in 2012-2013.

Like I said, I don't mind moving Harden, but it has to be a good enough package. Even in 2012, it seemed like peanuts to pick up for a guy that Houston immediately maxed. They long-term gave up 1 good pick (Toronto) and 1 decent pick (Dallas) to get him basically. I'll admit, I didn't expect his offense to explode to such a degree and his defense to be non-existent that quickly.

Presti has underwhelmed since Martin walked for nothing, Lamb's a bust, and now their frontcourt is kinda too crowded to optimize the additions of McGary & Adams. Of course, those last 2 guys are valuable trade chips imo, so maybe he lands a good wing player for 1 of them.

My bad- I thought you said you defended his moves until the inactivity up to the 2014 trade deadline. I just thought he had a poor summer 2013 outside of drafting Adams honestly. Roberson was a good addition, but doing nothing in FA was inexcusable to me.

Going for fit- yeah, then keeping all 4 of WB/Harden/KD/Ibaka likely wouldn't make sense due to egos. But trading one of them and not capitalizing on the new assets/players to really take your team to the next level doesn't make sense either. I think we definitely agree there.