The forgotten team: 1993 New York Knicks

[3ball]

Pat Riley's Knicks had the #1 defense in the league for three straight years - 1993, 1994, and 1995.. (#2 in 1992).

John Starks was 18 ppg, 5 apg, and 2nd team all-defense in 1993.

Knicks also had Ewing (24/12 and All-NBA), Anthony Mason (12/8), Charles Smith (12/5), Charles Oakley (7/8), Greg Anthony (7/6a), Doc Rivers (8/5a), Ronaldo Blackman (10/3a)

Knicks had homecourt advantage.. After the series, MJ said that before the series even started, the Bulls knew the Knicks would be their toughest test of the playoffs - the defacto championship played in ECF:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eve0wooazZM&t=13m44s
.

[Legends66NBA7]

I liked the 91/92 Knicks more. They pushed a better Bulls team to the brink and even won their home court once.

[Young X]

I liked the 91/92 Knicks more. They pushed a better Bulls team to the brink and even won their home court once.That team was crazy.

Ewing
Oakley
Mason
Starks
McDaniel
Wilkins

Crazy amount of toughness on one team.

[Real14]

That team was amazing:applause:

[3ball]

That team was crazy.

Ewing
Oakley
Mason
Starks
McDaniel
Wilkins

Crazy amount of toughness on one team.


True.. It's interesting because Wilkins was a key Knicks' defender on MJ in 1992 ECF.. Then he was picked up by the Cavs in 1993 to be the "Jordan Stopper".

MJ crushed him in 1993 ECSF along with the Cavs' 6th-ranked defense and 3-all-stars in Nance (17/9), Price (18/8) and Daughtery (20/10).. This was right before the rematch with the Knicks referenced in OP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eve0wooazZM&t=8m32s

[wally_world]

True.. It's interesting because Wilkins was a key Knicks' defender on MJ in 1992 ECF.. Then he was picked up by the Cavs in 1993 to be the "Jordan Stopper".

MJ crushed him in 1993 ECSF along with the Cavs' 6th-ranked defense and 3-all-stars in Nance (17/9), Price (18/8) and Daughtery (20/10).. This was right before the rematch with the Knicks referenced in OP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eve0wooazZM&t=8m32s

Wilkins is the reason the Knicks werent more successful imo. Played wayyyyy over his head with the Jordan-stopper thing, and being the brother of Dominique. Should've gave bigger roles to XMan, Starks etc.

[AceManIII]

How does old Knicks fans feel about Charles Smith?

[unknowns8]

if the Knicks had beaten Houston in the Finals in mid-90's, this team would be getting the respect it deserves ... as it stands, when Mike wasn't around and they still lost, I think a lot of basketball fans went off them as a genuinely great team ... same applies to Patrick Ewing and Charles Barkley

[Uncle Drew]

Let's be real, OP gives jackshit about that Knicks team. He just made it to suck Jordan off some more. :oldlol:

[Rocketswin2013]

Let's be real, OP gives jackshit about that Knicks team. He just made it to suck Jordan off some more. :oldlol:
http://i.imgur.com/pZf7Thu.png

[Indian guy]

Best defensive team of the 90's, but they were dreadful offensively - 6th worst in the NBA. And a team that inept at putting the ball in the hole was never going to win a championship. Pretty sad for Ewing that the best NY could ever give him as a 2nd option was Starks.

[RidonKs]

Pat Riley's Knicks had the #1 defense in the league for three straight years - 1993, 1994, and 1995.. (#2 in 1992).

John Starks was 18 ppg, 5 apg, and 2nd team all-defense in 1993.

Knicks also had Ewing (24/12 and All-NBA), Anthony Mason (12/8), Charles Smith (12/5), Charles Oakley (7/8), Greg Anthony (7/6a), Doc Rivers (8/5a), Ronaldo Blackman (10/3a)

Knicks had homecourt advantage.. After the series, MJ said that before the series even started, the Bulls knew the Knicks would be their toughest test of the playoffs - the defacto championship played in ECF:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eve0wooazZM&t=13m44s
.
that last possession in game 5 at 20:45... a grant verticality, a jordan strip, and two pippen blocks... goddamn incredible

jesus pip to mj allyoop at 21:35

[GimmeThat]

I like it.

and this actually reminds me of the stretch in early 2000 where the league had multiple 30 PPG scorer, then went for a stretches where that number went down.

but more importantly, many if not all of those players became what others known/suspected as one hit wonder.

[JohnnySic]

They were modelled after the Bad Boy Pistons.

[Hey Yo]

Let's be real, OP gives jackshit about that Knicks team. He just made it to suck Jordan off some more. :oldlol:
Jordan shot 40% in that series. Same % as LeBron in last seasons Finals.

3ball knows he can't blow Jordan for that series cause Pippen played better.

[WorldWarriors]

Best defensive team of the 90's, but they were dreadful offensively - 6th worst in the NBA. And a team that inept at putting the ball in the hole was never going to win a championship. Pretty sad for Ewing that the best NY could ever give him as a 2nd option was Starks.

I always felt bad that Ewing couldn't get a ring. He was so talented.

I couldn't figure John Starks. He'd be super good one game and totally riding the short bus the next.

I remember him doing something stupid and I thought Oakley was gonna kill him dead right there on the court.

[sdot_thadon]

Best defensive team of the 90's, but they were dreadful offensively - 6th worst in the NBA. And a team that inept at putting the ball in the hole was never going to win a championship. Pretty sad for Ewing that the best NY could ever give him as a 2nd option was Starks.
Pretty much sums it up. Major roadblock for so many teams over the years. I honestly think Starks was my first time seeing a guy that should have been 3rd option or lower pose as 2nd option. Mj was close to going to NY later in his career, that would have been a crazy tough team to beat.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif


Jordan shot 40% in that series. Same % as LeBron in last seasons Finals.



Compare the difference in defense above where both players have the ball the same spot - night and day, due to spacing..

Lebron benefited from weakside spacing, which draws help defenders to the weakside, and therefore furthest away to help on strongside action.. Otoh, MJ didn't have any weakside spacing, so all defenders remained on strongside and closest to help on strongside action.





3ball knows he can't blow Jordan for that series cause Pippen played better.


MJ broke the series open in Game 4 with 54 points.

Remember, in addition to no-spacing, the NBA had legal paint-camping back then, so players like MJ couldn't penetrate anytime they wanted like players today - in this particular series, the Knicks sealed the paint.. So MJ scored 54 points in Game 4 on ALL JUMPSHOTS..

You guys think I'm bullshitting, but it's true - he dropped 54 on all jumpshots, because he knew that was the only way to have a big game.. Fortunately, he had the CAPACITY within his game to accomplish this (he was a great shooter):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A





LeBron in last seasons Finals.


The difference is that Lebron is an unsophisticated, Shaq-type player because he relies on running people over rather than skill.. Accordingly, his basic approach was FIGURED OUT halfway through the Warriors series, exactly like he was against Dallas in 2011 (losing the 2-1 lead the same way)..

This is just like Shaq, whose stacked Magic were figured out by Houston in 1995 Finals, while his stacked Lakers were swept by Utah in 1997 and 1998, and crushed by Detroit in 2004 Finals.

Otoh, MJ is a smart player with far greater capacity to adjust, so HE was the one figuring out the other team and adjusting halfway through the series.
.

[sdot_thadon]

Compare the difference in defense above where both players have the ball the same spot - night and day, due to spacing..

Lebron benefited from weakside spacing, which draws help defenders to the weakside, and therefore furthest away to help on strongside action.. Otoh, MJ didn't have any weakside spacing, so all defenders remained on strongside and closest to help on strongside action.



MJ broke the series open in Game 4 with 54 points.

Remember, in addition to no-spacing, the NBA had legal paint-camping back then, so players like MJ couldn't penetrate anytime they wanted like players today - in this particular series, the Knicks sealed the paint.. So MJ scored 54 points in Game 4 on ALL JUMPSHOTS..

You guys think I'm bullshitting, but it's true - he dropped 54 on all jumpshots, because he knew that was the only way to have a big game.. Fortunately, he had the CAPACITY within his game to accomplish this (he was a great shooter):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A



The difference is that Lebron is an unsophisticated, Shaq-type player because he relies on running people over rather than skill.. Accordingly, his basic approach was FIGURED OUT halfway through the Warriors series, exactly like he was against Dallas in 2011 (losing the 2-1 lead the same way)..

This is just like Shaq, whose stacked Magic were figured out by Houston in 1995 Finals, while his stacked Lakers were swept by Utah in 1997 and 1998, and crushed by Detroit in 2004 Finals.

Otoh, MJ is a smart player with far greater capacity to adjust, so HE was the one figuring out the other team and adjusting halfway through the series.
.
On the other hand, MJ was a small player who couldn't get the same buckets Lebron and Shaq could so it's a moot point....

[LAZERUSS]

The 55-27 Bulls lost a close and controversial seven game series against the 56-26 Knicks (losing game seven in NY.) And, had Grant and Pippen not missed a combined 22 games, they likely would have won 60+ games. Which would have been HUGE...since they won ALL THREE games on their home floor.

A simply amazing accomplishment by a team that was missing it's best player from the year before.

[3ball]

55-27 Bulls (in 1994)


The regular season doesn't show how good a team is - the postseason does..

Let's use Kareem as an example: the Lakers showed they were capable of winning 60 games without Kareem in 1990 and 1991.. But they weren't capable of even 1 championship, despite being capable of winning 5 with him... It's a massive decline for a team to go from 5 ring capability to no-ring capability.

MJ had an even greater impact than Kareem - at least Kareem's teams could still make the Finals without him - MJ's team couldn't even get past the 2nd Round!!!

The Bulls were a 3-peat team with MJ in 1993, but only a 2nd Round team without MJ in 1994.. The fall from 3-peat to 2nd Round is the biggest 1-season decline ever when a star leaves the team.

Of course, MJ had the GOAT impact on bad teams too - Doug Collins' 6th seeded Bulls would've been lottery without MJ in 1989, instead of ECF and 1 season away from starting a 3-peat..

No one has ever taken a team from lottery to 3-peat.. Not even Bill Russell (his Celtics were in conference finals the year before he got there).

[LAZERUSS]

The regular season doesn't show how good a team is - the postseason does..

Let's use Kareem as an example: the Lakers showed they were capable of winning 60 games without Kareem in 1990 and 1991.. But they weren't capable of even 1 championship, despite being capable of winning 5 with him... It's a massive decline for a team to go from 5 ring capability to no-ring capability.

MJ had an even greater impact than Kareem - at least Kareem's teams could still make the Finals without him - MJ's team couldn't even get past the 2nd Round!!!

The Bulls were a 3-peat team with MJ in 1993, but only a 2nd Round team without MJ in 1994.. The fall from 3-peat to 2nd Round is the biggest 1-season decline ever when a star leaves the team.

Of course, MJ had the GOAT impact on bad teams too - Doug Collins' 6th seeded Bulls would've been lottery without MJ in 1989, instead of ECF and 1 season away from starting a 3-peat..

No one has ever taken a team from lottery to 3-peat.. Not even Bill Russell (his Celtics were in conference finals the year before he got there).

Haven't read this reply before.

BTW, Kareem had been a non-factor in his last two seasons, and even with a worthless Kareem, Magic won a title, and carried the other team to the Finals.

[3ball]

MJ was a small player who couldn't get the same buckets Lebron and Shaq could so it's a moot point....


:roll:

MJ scored far more buckets that Shaq and Lebron can't score, than the other way around..

But keep seeking out the exception to the rule - by doing so, you prove the existence of said rule.

In this case, the rule says MJ is the the GOAT scorer and capable of figuring out any defense - see Game 4 of 1993 ECF when he scored 54 points on all jumpshots because that was the only way to have a big game against the Knicks all-time level defense..

Only a player with the required skill capacity can do this... In this case, the required skill capacity was being a great shooter that could get 50 on all jumpshots against possibly the goat defense.. That's what was needed in 1993 to beat the prime Knicks, so that's what MJ did.

[ProfessorMurder]

92 was the better team in my opinion. I loved those teams. Gritty, rough, looked like football players.

Here's my old mix for the Knicks:

Early 90s Knicks (http://youtu.be/NsbAJgAh7zY)

[LAZERUSS]

You keep harping on "side-kicks"...

well, your Kareem had a Finals of 13-4 .414, and in that same series, a game seven of 4 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 3 rebs, and 5 PFs.

And yet, Magic carried that team to a title over a team that MJ couldn't beat until they fell apart.

[3ball]

well, your Kareem had a game seven of 4 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 3 rebs, and 5 PFs.


And yet he drew the series-deciding foul on Laimbeer on the last possession of Game 7, to literally WIN the series.

Again, the Lakers weren't capable of even 1 championship without Kareem, despite being capable of winning 5 with him... It's a massive decline for a team to go from 5-ring capability to no-ring capability.

Of course, MJ had an even greater impact than Kareem - at least Kareem's 5-time champs could still make the Finals without him.. Otoh, MJ's 6-time champs couldn't even get past the 2nd Round without him!!!

[sdot_thadon]

:roll:

MJ scored far more buckets that Shaq and Lebron can't score, than the other way around..

But keep seeking out the exception to the rule - by doing so, you prove the existence of said rule.

In this case, the rule says MJ is the the GOAT scorer and capable of figuring out any defense - see Game 4 of 1993 ECF when he scored 54 points on all jumpshots because that was the only way to have a big game against the Knicks all-time level defense..

Only a player with the required skill capacity can do this... In this case, the required skill capacity was being a great shooter that could get 50 on all jumpshots against possibly the goat defense.. That's what was needed in 1993 to beat the prime Knicks, so that's what MJ did.
Nah bro, nah.


The difference is that Lebron is an unsophisticated, Shaq-type player because he relies on running people over rather than skill..*
Like I said Mj couldn't play the game they way they did/do. Don't be upset. Different people have different bodies.

[LAZERUSS]

And yet he drew the series-deciding foul on Laimbeer on the last possession of Game 7, to literally WIN the series.

Again, the Lakers weren't capable of even 1 championship without Kareem, despite being capable of winning 5 with him... It's a massive decline for a team to go from 5-ring capability to no-ring capability.

Of course, MJ had an even greater impact than Kareem - at least Kareem's 5-time champs could still make the Finals without him.. Whereas, MJ's 6-time champs couldn't even get past the 2nd Round without him!!!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

BETTY WHITE would have put up a better series than KAJ did in '88. It was THE worst series EVER by a GOAT. Plain-and-simple.
And if KAJ, who was imply HORRIFIC the entire series, gets credit for winning the series on ONE play...then you had better admit that Paxson won the '92 Finals.

Of course, Magic took the Lakers to records of 63-19 and then 58-24 and the Finals, without Kareem, and with a roster that would go 43-39 and then 39-43 after Magic retired.

Meanwhile, without MJ, the '94 Bulls go 55-27, and had Grant and Pippen not missed 22 games, would surely have won 60+ games...which would have given them HCA in the playoffs, and likely a title.

BUT, then MJ comes back the very next season, plays 17 games, is fully refreshed for the playoffs...and takes that same EXACT roster, sans Grant...down in the second round, to a team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

MJ had to ADD ANOTHER HOFer, to a roster that had won 55 games without him...to win his next three Finals.

Again...MJ played with, BY FAR, the most stacked rosters in the watered-down 90's. Teams that could challenge for a title without him.

[sdot_thadon]

The regular season doesn't show how good a team is - the postseason does..

Let's use Kareem as an example: the Lakers showed they were capable of winning 60 games without Kareem in 1990 and 1991.. But they weren't capable of even 1 championship, despite being capable of winning 5 with him... It's a massive decline for a team to go from 5 ring capability to no-ring capability.

MJ had an even greater impact than Kareem - at least Kareem's teams could still make the Finals without him - MJ's team couldn't even get past the 2nd Round!!!

The Bulls were a 3-peat team with MJ in 1993, but only a 2nd Round team without MJ in 1994.. The fall from 3-peat to 2nd Round is the biggest 1-season decline ever when a star leaves the team.

Of course, MJ had the GOAT impact on bad teams too - Doug Collins' 6th seeded Bulls would've been lottery without MJ in 1989, instead of ECF and 1 season away from starting a 3-peat..

No one has ever taken a team from lottery to 3-peat.. Not even Bill Russell (his Celtics were in conference finals the year before he got there).
Wrong again bro, that distinction belongs to Russell. By far. The celtics went from 11 titles in 13 years and 12 Finals appearances in 13 years, with an 8 peat in there somewhere to missing the playoffs.
Reading is fundamental.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/QmCJlv.gif


Like I said Mj couldn't play the game they way they did/do.. Different people have different bodies.


MJ ran people over people too.. At an elite level - he ran through Barkley on the series-clinching play of the 1993 Finals (seen above)

But he that's not ALL he could do.

He could score many other ways too... more ways than any player ever.

[sdot_thadon]

MJ ran people over people too.. At an elite level - he ran through Barkley on the series-clinching play of the 1993 Finals (seen above)

But he that's not ALL he could do.

He could score many other ways too, more ways than any player ever.
The main problem with your cherry picking bullshit ways are we can do that for lots of guys. You describe that as being all these guys can do, but then cherry pick a highlight so Mj doesn't feel left out. I'm sure he appreciates your effort. :oldlol:

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/QmCJlv.gif


cherry picking bullshit




You think that was a cherry-pick of MJ running a defender over?.. That was the series-clinching play in the Finals.

Don't be annoyed that I showed MJ doing Shaq and Lebron's bread-and-butter better than they do it... and on a bigger stage and more clutch moment than they've ever done it.

Here's MJ running through Barkley again - I've never seen Lebron do this to anyone:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/dpx04h.gif


As you can see, MJ can do what Shaq and Lebron does (running people over), but they can't do what MJ does..

:confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

You think that was a cherry-pick of MJ running a defender over?.. That was the series-clinching play in the Finals.

Don't be annoyed that I showed MJ doing Shaq and Lebron's bread-and-butter better than they do it... and on a bigger stage and more clutch moment than they've ever done it.

Here's MJ running through Barkley again - I've never seen Lebron do this to anyone:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/dpx04h.gif


As you can see, MJ can do what Shaq and Lebron does (running people over), but they can't do what MJ does..

:confusedshrug:
Likewise there's a ton of highlights of lebron doing moves Mj did as well. Stupid point is stupid point 3ball. And to that mind numbingly dumb statement, I'm sure Shaq and Lebron have both done their thing in the finals. Also Lebron has done his thing in a finals game 7. No bigger stage exists.:cheers:

[WorldWarriors]

So this thread started off about the 1993 Knicks and ended up being a Lebron and MJ pissing contest.

Only on ISH.:oldlol: :oldlol:

[3ball]

Likewise there's a ton of highlights of lebron doing MJ moves (moves he did first) as well.



Lebron does the Jordan Fadeaway at a below-average skill level.. Plenty of guys do this essential part of a hoops repertoire much better.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/Q8K9Ta.gif


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/BwsUCL.gif



Now let's move on to the Jordan Lean-In.. Lebron's skill level at the Jordan Lean-In is piss poor.. Everyone knows that Lebron jumps off two feet about as well as a bulldog.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/Rfi5hr.gif



How about the Jordan Tomahawk?... Lebron virtually NEVER does this (a two-footed, left-shoulder-leading dunk off a hop-step, or while driving right):


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/u4ejBV.gif


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/8DdYbU.gif

[Round Mound]

1992-93 Knicks vs. Suns (1/8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk72-ENP7JE

:bowdown:

[TheCorporation]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

BETTY WHITE would have put up a better series than KAJ did in '88. It was THE worst series EVER by a GOAT. Plain-and-simple.
And if KAJ, who was imply HORRIFIC the entire series, gets credit for winning the series on ONE play...then you had better admit that Paxson won the '92 Finals.

Of course, Magic took the Lakers to records of 63-19 and then 58-24 and the Finals, without Kareem, and with a roster that would go 43-39 and then 39-43 after Magic retired.

Meanwhile, without MJ, the '94 Bulls go 55-27, and had Grant and Pippen not missed 22 games, would surely have won 60+ games...which would have given them HCA in the playoffs, and likely a title.

BUT, then MJ comes back the very next season, plays 17 games, is fully refreshed for the playoffs...and takes that same EXACT roster, sans Grant...down in the second round, to a team that would get swept by the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

MJ had to ADD ANOTHER HOFer, to a roster that had won 55 games without him...to win his next three Finals.

Again...MJ played with, BY FAR, the most stacked rosters in the watered-down 90's. Teams that could challenge for a title without him.

LAZ spittin' that truth.

[3ball]

BETTY WHITE would have put up a better series than KAJ did in '88.


Like any sports team does, the Lakers were playing the best guys possible at all times and yet the series came down to 1 play - so every single one of Kareem's 26 mpg were needed, especially the final play of the series, where he won the series.

So doesn't matter what his stats were in the series - there was no wiggle room - his 26 minutes and consistent post presence was the difference between winning and not winning - this would be the case even if the Lakers DIDN'T throw him the ball on the last possession of Game 7 with the series and all legacies on the line.

Again, the Lakers were capable of FIVE rings with Kareem, and zero without him.. That's an enormous impact.. End of story.. All your rants about how bad his stats were don't change that fact.





then you had better admit that Paxson won the '92 Finals.


Kareem is "one of the GOAT's", as you called him.. A once-in-a-lifetime, seven-foot big man GOAT who has played 20 years is not replaceable.. Whereas, a floor-spreading 6-footer like Paxson easily is.





BUT, then MJ comes back the very next season, plays 17 games, is fully refreshed for the playoffs


Oh, buddy.. You were doing so well... until this slip-up... Revealed your massive troll.. :facepalm

Not only was MJ rusty from 2 years off, but every single player on the 1995 roster was different except Pippen.. :facepalm





in the watered-down 90's.


Again, 30 teams is 30 teams.. And American players were drawn from the exact same pools they are now - college and D-League (which used to be the CBA and USBL).

The higher proportion of international players has actually decreased the overall athleticism of the NBA.
.

[Round Mound]

Pippen was asoume the 1993-94 season despite the fact that Kukoc hit that game winning shot. I saw it live in 1993-94. Everyone knew Pippen wasnt a shooter or top scorer but after that he did everything else great or well. He was the best perimeter defender ever and one of the goat all around players ever. He anchored the bulls defense and was the best play maker for the bulls. His stats don`t show for it cause he played with the best scoring perimeter player. He was capable of 22 ppg on 48% FG, getting 8-9 rpg, 5-6 apg and 3 spg any season if he wanted to. Instead he sacrificed stats in order for the bulls to play better as a team. From 1990 on Jordan consistanatly had the Best 2nd Option in the league.

[LAZERUSS]

Like any sports team does, the Lakers were playing the best guys possible at all times and yet the series came down to 1 play - so every single one of Kareem's 26 mpg were needed, especially the final play of the series, where he won the series.

So doesn't matter what his stats were in the series - there was no wiggle room - his 26 minutes and consistent post presence was the difference between winning and not winning - this would be the case even if the Lakers DIDN'T throw him the ball on the last possession of Game 7 with the series and all legacies on the line.

Again, the Lakers were capable of FIVE rings with Kareem, and zero without him.. That's an enormous impact.. End of story.. All your rants about how bad his stats were don't change that fact.



Kareem is "one of the GOAT's", as you called him.. A once-in-a-lifetime, seven-foot big man GOAT who has played 20 years is not replaceable.. Whereas, a floor-spreading 6-footer like Paxson easily is.



That's how stacked the Lakers were - they could still make the Finals without Kareem.

Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 (and averaged 19/7/13 in the Finals), Worthy was All-NBA (19/5/47% in Finals on 40 mpg), while Divac (18/9), and Perkins (17/9) were also exceptional in the Finals..

But without Kareem, they were no longer capable of winning even 1 championship - the Lakers went from 5-championship dynasty capability WITH Kareem, to Lebron James-Finals losers without him.. That's a MASSIVE drop off.

Of course, still not nearly as much as the Bulls' dropoff without MJ - they couldn't even get past the 2nd round, let alone make the Finals.


Many teams have regular season success but turn out to be weak teams in the playoffs - this was the case with the 1994 Bulls..

But not only did they fail to get past the 2nd Round, but it was the WAY they lost.. Pippen refused to enter the game on the last possession, in an epic meltdown... For all your hypotheticals about if this, and if that - the Bulls were doing down 3-0 without Kukoc saving Pippen's ASS is Game 3.. Here's Ernie Johnson describing Pippen's meltdown (which is a microcosm of Pippen's overall inability to lead a team):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m23s


That's why Pippen only has 1 GW for the Bulls in his entire career (in 1st Round series that was foregone conclusion).. Every other GW is by MJ for their entire 6 championships in regular season AND playoffs - that's an enormous amount of games.



Oh, buddy.. You were doing so well... until this slip-up... Revealed your massive troll.. :facepalm

Not only was MJ rusty from 2 years off, but every single player on the 1995 roster was different except Pippen.. :facepalm



The Bulls required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest PPG scorer of all time for all of their championships.. So when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers that could score a lot of points, it was because of the superior strategy, bond and execution accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.



Again, 30 teams is 30 teams.. And American players were drawn from the exact same pools they are now - college and D-League (which used to be the CBA and USBL).

The higher proportion of international players has actually decreased the overall athleticism of the NBA.
.

Kareem played 29 minutes, scored 4 points, on 2-7 shooting (.286), with 3 rebounds, 3 TOs, and 5 PF's. His "backup" Mychal Thompson, in 22 minutes, put up 12 points, on 6-10 shooting, with 4 rebounds.

How about the Piston's centers? Laimbeer and Salley combined for 28 points, 19 rebounds, and shot 11-18 from the field (.611 from the field.)

Sorry, but Kareem was castrated in that game, and the entire series. Of course, it was Magic who had to again carry LA to yet another title. The reality was...Magic won a ring in '87 with Kareem just a third-wheel who could have easily been replaced by Thompson and Green. And then he won a ring in '88 DESPITE Kareem. Hell, he won the Finals in '80 without Kareem, who watched the clinching win on the road from his couch, in a game in which Magic hung 42-15-7, and just dominated the Sixers.

In the '91 post-season, Magic took a rapidly declining, and injury riddled Laker team past the favored 63-19 Blazers, and into the Finals, where they lost to a team that had better players right down the line (Grant and Pippen just shelled LA.) BTW, Worthy was just a shell that season, as attested by his HUGE drop in FG%...and then was a cripple in the Finals (and missed two games.) BTW, Magic was already declining, as well.

Of course, we saw just how good that roster was the next two years after Magic retired... 43-39 and 39-43.

How about a PEAK Magic, in '87?


Now let's actually put in a PEAK Magic, and not some way-past-his-prime Magic that carried a shell of what had been a dynasty in the 80's, past a peak Blazer team in the WCF's, and then up against a peak Jordan (and with Pippen being the one to slow him down), with his stacked roster that wiped out Magic's rapidly declining, and injury-plagued roster in the '91 Finals.

How about Magic at HIS PEAK, in 86-87.

First, MJ vs. Magic...

MJ: 37.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, .429 FG%, .875 FT%, .474 TS%
Magic: 29.0 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 12.5 apg, .500 FG%, .933 FT%, .563 TS%.
Oh, and 2-0 W-L


MJ vs. Boston in regular season, and Magic vs. Boston in regular season:

MJ: 29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, .428 FG%, .820 FT%
Magic: 35.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 9.0 rpg, .556 FG%, .864 FT%


How about MJ vs, Boston, and Magic vs. Boston in that same post-season:

MJ: 35.7 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 6.0 apg, .417 FG%, .817 FT%, .529 TS%
Magic: 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, .541 FG%, .960 FT%, .590 TS%

Oh, and MJ's Bulls vs. Boston in the playoffs... 0-3
Magic's Lakers vs. Boston in the Finals... 4-2

BTW, MJ in his '87 season averaged a career high 37.1 ppg. And yet a PEAK Magic was FAR greater.


Another point.

Magic's Laker played teams like the Sixers from the first half of the 80's, the Bad Boys from the last half of the 80's, and the Celtics for the entire decade of the 80's. He took his team to EIGHT Finals, and won FIVE rings in that decade, and beat the peak Sixers twice, the peak Bad Boys once, and the peak Celtics, twice.

Compare that with MJ's 90's run.

He finally beat a washed-up Pistons team, and then a washed-up Lakers team in the '91 playoffs and Finals.

He beat a 57-25 Blazers team in the '92 Finals, with the same roster that somehow Magic beat the year before when they went 63-19.

He beat a defenseless Suns team in the '93 Finals.

Oh, and how good was his rosters in the 90's? His '94 team, with the legendary Pete Myers replacing him, went 55-27, which was deceptive, since Pippen missed 10 games, as well as other teammates missing games. They could easily have won 60+ games. And it was too bad, too, since they did not have HCA against a 56-26 Knicks team that they took to a close and controversial seven game series...the same Knicks team that lost a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them BTW.)

Then, they basically replaced Grant with Rodman, and Paxson with Kerr, and won three more titles.

MJ's '96 Bulls beat a Sonics team with Payton and Kemp, and not much else, in a series in which MJ averaged 27 ppg on a .415 FG%.

Then MJ's Bulls beat the Stockton-Malone Jazz in two straight Finals, in series in which MJ shot .455 and .427.


Think about this...

Was there ANY team that MJ faced in the 90's that was even remotely close to the Sixers, Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers in the 80's?

I can safely make this claim...MJ's 90's Bulls don't go 6-8 in the 80's. Hell, they might not have won a ring in that decade.


And I have trashed your take on the '94 and '95 Bulls MANY times. The Bulls went an injury-riddled 55-27 withOUT MJ in '94, and had they been healthy, likely would have won 60+ games, which would have given them HCA throughout the playoffs, and likely a title. We do KNOW that they won ALL THREE HOME GAMES against the 56-26 Knicks (and BTW, went 4-1 against the Pacers in the regular season)...the same NY team that lost a game seven, on Hoston's home court, by four points.

Then a FULLY refreshed MJ, playing at nearly the same level as he did in the '93 post-season, and better than he would in the '96 post-season (he was just awful in that Finals BTW...28 ppg on a .415 FG%...thank god for his dominating defensive teammates)...couldn't get that SAME 55+ win roster past the second round...to a team that would get SWEPT by a 47-35 Rockets team in the Finals.

It took ANOTHER HOFer in Rodman, to get MJ and a roster that won 55 games withOUT him...to the next level.

Again...BY FAR the most STACKED rosters in the 90's...capabl of challenging for a title withOUT Jordan.

[funnystuff]

Who else is convinced that 3ball hates Jordan with all his heart?


How far he goes to make Jordan look bad is unbelievable.

[Spurs m8]

And this is going to be what happens to CP3 and this Clippers squad in 20 years, they've done less than that Knicks team.
They've done actually nothing hahah

FORGOTTEN

[SouBeachTalents]

Again, the Lakers were capable of FIVE rings with Kareem, and zero without him.. That's an enormous impact.. End of story.. All your rants about how bad his stats were don't change that fact.

The Bulls were capable of SIX rings with Pippen, and zero without him.. That's an enormous impact.. End of story.. All your rants about how bad his stats were don't change that fact

[LAZERUSS]

The Bulls were capable of SIX rings with Pippen, and zero without him.. That's an enormous impact.. End of story.. All your rants about how bad his stats were don't change that fact

Excluding Pippen's last season, when he only played 23 games, and only started six, in 18 mpg...

Here were his W-L records withOUT Jordan.

'94: 55-27
'99: 31-19
'00: 59-23
'01: 37-27
'02: 39-23
'03: 41-23


Anyone care to post Jordan's W-L records without Pippen? Oh, and please include his POST-SEASON W-L record, as well.

[Asukal]

Wilkins is the reason the Knicks werent more successful imo. Played wayyyyy over his head with the Jordan-stopper thing, and being the brother of Dominique. Should've gave bigger roles to XMan, Starks etc.

Replace jordan with prime lebron and wilkins will win the fmvp. :rolleyes:

[AceManIII]

Excluding Pippen's last season, when he only played 23 games, and only started six, in 18 mpg...

Here were his W-L records withOUT Jordan.

'94: 55-27
'99: 31-19
'00: 59-23
'01: 37-27
'02: 39-23
'03: 41-23


Anyone care to post Jordan's W-L records without Pippen? Oh, and please include his POST-SEASON W-L record, as well.

Pippen for Top 25???

[SamuraiSWISH]

I liked the 91/92 Knicks more. They pushed a better Bulls team to the brink and even won their home court once.
'93 Bulls were better than the '92 Bulls. Don't confuse fatigued regular season record, seeing everyone's absolute best every night for being an inferior ball club.

The fact the 1993 team beat the most dynamic offensive team (Suns), and stingiest all-time great caliber defensive team (Knicks) all in one Finals run ... two 60+ win teams. Even coming back from an 0-2 deficit at one point, showed that team had superior talent, heart, and will power. Bulls were basically underdogs in the ECF, and Finals.

BJ Armstrong's emergence made them a much deeper squad than the 1992 team. Grant and Pippen were better players too.

[LAZERUSS]

Pippen for Top 25???

He probably has a case. I never go beyond Top-15, myself, because the list of candidates becomes staggering. Players like Hondo, Barry, Dirk, Robinson, Baylor, Pettit, Barkley, K Malone, KG, etc.

[3ball]

Of course, Magic took the Lakers to records of 63-19 and then 58-24 and the Finals, without Kareem


That's how stacked the Lakers were - they could still make the Finals without Kareem.

Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 (and averaged 19/7/13 in the Finals), Worthy was All-NBA (19/5 in Finals on 40 mpg), while Divac (18/9), and Perkins (17/9) were also exceptional in the Finals..

But without Kareem, they were no longer capable of winning even 1 championship - the Lakers went from 5-championships and dynasty capability WITH Kareem, to Lebron James-Finals losers without him.. That's a MASSIVE drop off.

Of course, still not nearly as much as the Bulls' dropoff without MJ - they couldn't even get past the 2nd round, let alone make the Finals.





Meanwhile, without MJ, the '94 Bulls go 55-27

Many teams have regular season success but the playoffs prove they are weak teams - this was the case with the 1994 Bulls..

We know they failed to get out of the 2nd Round, but it was also the WAY they lost.. Pippen refused to enter the game on the last possession of Game 3 - it was an epic, historic meltdown... For all your delusional, naive, "i-don't-understand-life" hypotheticals - the Bulls were doing down 3-0 without Kukoc saving Pippen's ASS is Game 3.

Here's Ernie Johnson describing Pippen's meltdown (which is a microcosm of Pippen's overall inability to lead a team):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m23s


That's why Pippen only has 1 GW for the Bulls in his entire career (in 1st Round series that was foregone conclusion).. Every other GW is by MJ for their entire 6 championships in regular season AND playoffs - that's an enormous amount of games.





Bulls won 55 games without him.. Again...MJ played with, BY FAR, the most stacked rosters


The Bulls required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest PPG scorer of all time for all of their championships..

So when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers that could score a lot of points, it was because of the superior bond, strategy and execution accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.

But again, that was just the regular season.. In the playoffs, the Bulls were like many teams where the playoffs proves they are weak teams - they couldn't get past the 2nd round.. Their 3-peat to 2nd round decline was the biggest 1-season drop in history when a star player leaves the team.
.

[LAZERUSS]

That's how stacked the Lakers were - they could still make the Finals without Kareem.

Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 (and averaged 19/7/13 in the Finals), Worthy was All-NBA (19/5 in Finals on 40 mpg), while Divac (18/9), and Perkins (17/9) were also exceptional in the Finals..

But without Kareem, they were no longer capable of winning even 1 championship - the Lakers went from 5-championships and dynasty capability WITH Kareem, to Lebron James-Finals losers without him.. That's a MASSIVE drop off.

Of course, still not nearly as much as the Bulls' dropoff without MJ - they couldn't even get past the 2nd round, let alone make the Finals.



Many teams have regular season success but the playoffs prove they are weak teams - this was the case with the 1994 Bulls..

We know they failed to get out of the 2nd Round, but it was also the WAY they lost.. Pippen refused to enter the game on the last possession of Game 3 - it was an epic, historic meltdown... For all your delusional, naive, "i-don't-understand-life" hypotheticals - the Bulls were doing down 3-0 without Kukoc saving Pippen's ASS is Game 3.

Here's Ernie Johnson describing Pippen's meltdown (which is a microcosm of Pippen's overall inability to lead a team):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m23s


That's why Pippen only has 1 GW for the Bulls in his entire career (in 1st Round series that was foregone conclusion).. Every other GW is by MJ for their entire 6 championships in regular season AND playoffs - that's an enormous amount of games.



The Bulls required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest PPG scorer of all time for all of their championships..

So when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers that could score a lot of points, it was because of the superior bond, strategy and execution accumulated from 3-peating with MJ.

But again, that was just the regular season.. In the playoffs, the Bulls were like many teams where the playoffs proves they are weak teams - they couldn't get past the 2nd round.. Their 3-peat to 2nd round decline was the biggest 1-season drop in history when a star player leaves the team.
.

And yet MJ couldn't take that same 55+ win roster any further the very next season...and needed to ADD ANOTHER HOF player to a team that could win 55+ games without him...to win three more titles.

MJ + Pippen and Grant/Rodman...= TITLES. Without even one...pure shit.

And in his highest scoring season...a losing record, and a first round playoff sweeping loss.

[3ball]

MJ + Pippen and Grant/Rodman...= TITLES. Without even one...pure shit.


It's not news that MJ needed some help to win rings (i.e. decent SF and a power forward that can grab 8 rebounds per game).

But that represents a lot less help than Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Moses Malone, Isiah, and almost any other great that won a ring.

Infact, out of MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, and Lebron (if you include 2011), MJ is the only player that didn't have a teammate be the better player and win FMVP.. MJ is the only player that was FMVP for ALL his rings.

Also, in 1988 and 1989, Jordan outscored the Bulls’ second-leading scorer by an average of 22.6 points. Only one other player in NBA history, Wilt Chamberlain, had a greater margin over his team’s runner-up in scoring.
.

[sdot_thadon]

That's how stacked the Lakers were - they could still make the Finals without Kareem.

Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 (and averaged 19/7/13 in the Finals), Worthy was All-NBA (19/5 in Finals on 40 mpg), while Divac (18/9), and Perkins (17/9) were also exceptional in the Finals..

But without Kareem, they were no longer capable of winning even 1 championship - the Lakers went from 5-championships and dynasty capability WITH Kareem, to Lebron James-Finals losers without him.. That's a MASSIVE drop off.

.
Yeah, yet another lazy statement. You do realize that Magic lost Worthy and Byron Scott both midway through the series with injuries? Of course you don't, you're a highlight homo. You think Mj would have his 1st ring if both pippen and grant went down in game 4? Seriously doubt it. Nobody ever brings this point uo though because it's Mj.


And yet MJ couldn't take that same 55+ win roster any further the very next season...and needed to ADD ANOTHER HOF player to a team that could win 55+ games without him...to win three more titles.

MJ + Pippen and Grant/Rodman...= TITLES. Without even one...pure shit.

And in his highest scoring season...a losing record, and a first round playoff sweeping loss.
Makes you wonder don't it.......

[SamuraiSWISH]

God I always forget how pathetic that Scottie play was where he selfishly pouts and sat out the end of a playoff game coming down to the wire. Terrible leader, horrendously selfish and childish. Guy wasn't meant to lead. Just after he made a very poor shot attempt and made no quality end of game scoring opportunity or play making. He was just a very limited half court scorer and clutch performer.

[3ball]

You do realize that Magic lost Worthy and Byron Scott both midway through the series with injuries?


Worthy played 40 minutes per game for 4 games.. He led the Lakers in scoring over those 4 games at 19.3 ppg on 47%.

But the Lakers were down 3-1 after 4 games and the series was over.. So your comment about Worthy is worthless.

Also, the Lakers didn't just have Worthy's 19 ppg - they had Divac's 18/9 and Perkins' 17/8... Indeed, Magic's 2 thru 4 options - 3 different guys - were all over 17 ppg..

MJ never had anything close to that - he had far less help than Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Moses Malone, Isiah, and almost any other great that won a ring.

Infact, out of MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Wade and Lebron (if you include 2011), MJ is the only player that didn't have a teammate be the better player and win FMVP.. MJ is the only player that was FMVP for ALL his rings.
.

[LAZERUSS]

Worthy was a shell by the end of the '91 season. Long gone were the seasons of .550+ FG% shooting. And his career was basically over after that season, as well. And Grant and Pippen just wiped the floor with the Lakers in that '91 Finals.

Of course, Magic was on the decline as well. How about a PEAK Magic in '87, and with Kareem just along for the ride...


Now let's actually put in a PEAK Magic, and not some way-past-his-prime Magic that carried a shell of what had been a dynasty in the 80's, past a peak Blazer team in the WCF's, and then up against a peak Jordan (and with Pippen being the one to slow him down), with his stacked roster that wiped out Magic's rapidly declining, and injury-plagued roster in the '91 Finals.

How about Magic at HIS PEAK, in 86-87.

First, MJ vs. Magic...

MJ: 37.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, .429 FG%, .875 FT%, .474 TS%
Magic: 29.0 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 12.5 apg, .500 FG%, .933 FT%, .563 TS%.
Oh, and 2-0 W-L


MJ vs. Boston in regular season, and Magic vs. Boston in regular season:

MJ: 29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, .428 FG%, .820 FT%
Magic: 35.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 9.0 rpg, .556 FG%, .864 FT%


How about MJ vs, Boston, and Magic vs. Boston in that same post-season:

MJ: 35.7 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 6.0 apg, .417 FG%, .817 FT%, .529 TS%
Magic: 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, .541 FG%, .960 FT%, .590 TS%

Oh, and MJ's Bulls vs. Boston in the playoffs... 0-3
Magic's Lakers vs. Boston in the Finals... 4-2

BTW, MJ in his '87 season averaged a career high 37.1 ppg. And yet a PEAK Magic was FAR greater.


Another point.

Magic's Laker played teams like the Sixers from the first half of the 80's, the Bad Boys from the last half of the 80's, and the Celtics for the entire decade of the 80's. He took his team to EIGHT Finals, and won FIVE rings in that decade, and beat the peak Sixers twice, the peak Bad Boys once, and the peak Celtics, twice.

Compare that with MJ's 90's run.

He finally beat a washed-up Pistons team, and then a washed-up Lakers team in the '91 playoffs and Finals.

He beat a 57-25 Blazers team in the '92 Finals, with the same roster that somehow Magic beat the year before when they went 63-19.

He beat a defenseless Suns team in the '93 Finals.

Oh, and how good was his rosters in the 90's? His '94 team, with the legendary Pete Myers replacing him, went 55-27, which was deceptive, since Pippen missed 10 games, as well as other teammates missing games. They could easily have won 60+ games. And it was too bad, too, since they did not have HCA against a 56-26 Knicks team that they took to a close and controversial seven game series...the same Knicks team that lost a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them BTW.)

Then, they basically replaced Grant with Rodman, and Paxson with Kerr, and won three more titles.

MJ's '96 Bulls beat a Sonics team with Payton and Kemp, and not much else, in a series in which MJ averaged 27 ppg on a .415 FG%.

Then MJ's Bulls beat the Stockton-Malone Jazz in two straight Finals, in series in which MJ shot .455 and .427.


Think about this...

Was there ANY team that MJ faced in the 90's that was even remotely close to the Sixers, Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers in the 80's?

I can safely make this claim...MJ's 90's Bulls don't go 6-8 in the 80's. Hell, they might not have won a ring in that decade.

BTW, the Lakers immediately crumbled to records of 43-39 and 39-43 after Magic retired.

Only Magic was capable of taking rapidly declining rosters to records of 63-19 and 58-24, and even a Finals in his last season.

[3ball]

Of course, Magic took the Lakers to records of 63-19 and then 58-24 and the Finals, without Kareem


That's how stacked the Lakers were - they could still make the Finals without Kareem.

Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 (and averaged 19/7/13 in the Finals), Worthy was All-NBA (19/5 in Finals on 40 mpg), while Divac (18/9), and Perkins (17/8) were also exceptional in the Finals..

But without Kareem, they were no longer capable of winning even 1 championship - the Lakers went from 5-championships and dynasty capability WITH Kareem, to Lebron James-Finals losers without him.. That's a MASSIVE drop off.

Of course, that decline is not nearly as big as the Bulls' dropoff without MJ - they couldn't even get past the 2nd round, let alone make the Finals.

[LAZERUSS]

That's how stacked the Lakers were - they could still make the Finals without Kareem.

Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 (and averaged 19/7/13 in the Finals), Worthy was All-NBA (19/5 in Finals on 40 mpg), while Divac (18/9), and Perkins (17/8) were also exceptional in the Finals..

But without Kareem, they were no longer capable of winning even 1 championship - the Lakers went from 5-championships and dynasty capability WITH Kareem, to Lebron James-Finals losers without him.. That's a MASSIVE drop off.

Of course, that decline is not nearly as big as the Bulls' dropoff without MJ - they couldn't even get past the 2nd round, let alone make the Finals.

The SAME arguments that I destroy repeatedly.

[3ball]

The SAME arguments that I destroy repeatedly.


Re-read the post you just quoted - they aren't arguments... They're facts..

[LAZERUSS]

Re-read the post you just quoted - they aren't arguments... They're facts..

Just like an MJ-less team going 55-27 without him, and losing a game seven to the 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's. The same NY team that would lose a game seven to the 58-24 Rocktets in the Finals.

Then MJ returning to that exact same roster, except replacing Grant...and getting wiped out in the ECSF's, 4-2, by a team that would get swept in the Finals by a 47-35 Rockets team.

And it took adding ANOTHER HOFer to a roster that won 55 games without MJ...to a team WITH MJ...to win three more titles.

FACTS.

More FACTS.

Without Pippen. Losing career record, and a 1-9 playoff record.

[Asukal]

Just like an MJ-less team going 55-27 without him, and losing a game seven to the 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's. The same NY team that would lose a game seven to the 58-24 Rocktets in the Finals.

Then MJ returning to that exact same roster, except replacing Grant...and getting wiped out in the ECSF's, 4-2, by a team that would get swept in the Finals by a 47-35 Rockets team.

And it took adding ANOTHER HOFer to a roster that won 55 games without MJ...to a team WITH MJ...to win three more titles.

FACTS.

More FACTS.

Without Pippen. Losing career record, and a 1-9 playoff record.

Add in 30>22>18=2/6...... FACT
:roll: :oldlol: :lol

[LAZERUSS]

Add in 30>22>18=2/6...... FACT
:roll: :oldlol: :lol

How about 22<24<25...FACT.

Or a prime Wilt averaging 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, on a .515 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .425 in the same span) in his 67 playoff games (35 of which were against Russell)? Find me another GOAT who put up just ONE SERIES with those numbers.

Or this...




Wilt's numbers in his 23 must-win playoff games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

BTW, Wilt's 31.1 ppg is just behind MJ's 31.3 ppg, and Lebron's 31.9 ppg in playoff must-win games. Oh, and those three 50+ point must-win games...the ONLY three by a GOAT in NBA history.



Or how about Wilt in his 37 must-win, or potential series clinching games...


Wilt actually played in 37 "elimination games",...games where either his team faced elimination, or could have clinched the series:

1. W: 53-22-2, 24-42 FG/FGA

2. W: 50-35-2, 22-42

3. L: 26-24-0, 8-18

4. L: 33-23-1, 13-29

5. W: 56-35-1, 22-48

6. W: 32-21-1, 12-29

7. L: 22-22-3, 7-15

8. W: 39-30-?, 19-29

9. L: 30-27-2, 12-28

10. W: 38-26-5, 14-22, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

11. W: 30-26-4, 13-22, 13 blks (Triple-Double)

12. L: 30-32-2, 12-15

13. L: 46-34-?, 19-34

14. W: 18-27-9, 7-14

15. W: 29-36-13, 10-16, 7 blks (Triple-Double)

16. W: 24-23-4, 8-13

17. W: 25-27-3, 10-19

18. L: 28-30-7, 11-21

19. L: 20-27-8, 6-21

20. L: 14-34-5, 4-9

21. W: 11-25-1, 5-9

22. W: 16-29-3, 5-11, 16 blks (Triple-Double)

23. L: 8-18-4, 1-5

24. L: 18-27-3, 7-8

25. W: 36-14-3, 12-20

26. W: 12-26-11, 4-11, 11 blks (Quad-Double)

27. W: 30-27-6, 11-18, 11 blks (Triple-Double)

28. W: 45-27-3, 20-27

29. L: 21-24-4, 10-16

30. W: 25-19-9, 7-12

31. L: 23-12-4, 10-21

32. W: 8-31-8, 4-6

33. W: 20-24-2, 8-12, 10 blks (Triple-Double)

34. W: 24-29-4, 10-14, 8 blks

35. W: 21-28-4, 10-17, 8 blks

36. W: 5-22-7, 2-2

37. L: 23-21-3, 9-16


W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

29.5 ppg

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)


FACTS.

[TripleA]

Knicks:bowdown: .

[Asukal]

How about 22<24<25...FACT.

Or a prime Wilt averaging 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, on a .515 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .425 in the same span) in his 67 playoff games (35 of which were against Russell)? Find me another GOAT who put up just ONE SERIES with those numbers.

Or this...



Or how about Wilt in his 37 must-win, or potential series clinching games...



FACTS.

"Cherry picked" FACTS. :lol :oldlol: :roll:

[ProfessorMurder]

Very cool how this thread sucks dick.

Talk about Jordan and Wilt and Bran some more.

[Stringer Bell]

And this is going to be what happens to CP3 and this Clippers squad in 20 years, they've done less than that Knicks team.
They've done actually nothing hahah

FORGOTTEN

The Knicks of this period actually are remembered now. They often get overrated because they gave Chicago a tough time, and I often hear about "Jordan and the Bulls prevented the Ewing and the Knicks from winning championships".

They might have won in 1993 against the Suns, which would have been a very interesting series, especially following their brawl, but they were very unlikely to win any titles in the other years that the Bulls eliminated them.

[Stringer Bell]

And yet he drew the series-deciding foul on Laimbeer on the last possession of Game 7, to literally WIN the series.

Again, the Lakers weren't capable of even 1 championship without Kareem, despite being capable of winning 5 with him... It's a massive decline for a team to go from 5-ring capability to no-ring capability.

Of course, MJ had an even greater impact than Kareem - at least Kareem's 5-time champs could still make the Finals without him.. Otoh, MJ's 6-time champs couldn't even get past the 2nd Round without him!!!

That was game 6....Game 7 was Big Game James Worthy going nuts and destroying Detroit with 36, 16, and 10.

The Pistons almost made a great comeback in the 4th quarter, cutting down a 15 point lead to 2, but Rodman took a dumb shot in transition which really hurt the Pistons' chances at the end.

[Horatio33]

The aspergers in this thread is off the charts.

[Real14]

I was a Jordan Stan at the time and a bandwagon Bulls fan. I used to annoy my dad cuz I was yes Jordan beat the knicks :oldlol: I was in the 1st grade tho, could u blame me?:lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Let's be real, OP gives jackshit about that Knicks team. He just made it to suck Jordan off some more. :oldlol:

/thread. Literally every thread & post he makes on this site is to do that

[Overdrive]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/Q8K9Ta.gif



Travel.

[Da_Realist]

They had heart. That's more than I can say about the majority of teams today.

[NBAGOAT]

They had heart. That's more than I can say about the majority of teams today.

Classic type of statement that really doesn't mean anything. Every team in the playoffs this year had heart besides the Rockets and maybe the Raptors at times. A few days after seeing what Austin Rivers did too. :oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

MJ broke the series open in Game 4 with 54 points.

Remember, in addition to no-spacing, the NBA had legal paint-camping back then, so players like MJ couldn't penetrate anytime they wanted like players today - in this particular series, the Knicks sealed the paint.. So MJ scored 54 points in Game 4 on ALL JUMPSHOTS..

You guys think I'm bullshitting, but it's true - he dropped 54 on all jumpshots, because he knew that was the only way to have a big game.. Fortunately, he had the CAPACITY within his game to accomplish this (he was a great shooter):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A

MJ went off in Game 4 because he and John Starks had a heated skirmish near the end of Game 3. And even at the beginning of Game 4, Starks was going back at him. Starks provoked that outburst.

However, I believe MJ played even better in game 5.

[Round Mound]

Has it ever happened that a teams best player leaves the team and then the 2nd option is 4th and 7th in PER? Never!