Wilt led the league 28 times

[Marchesk]

In scoring, rebounding, assists (total) or FG%.

Jordan: 13 (scoring, steals)
Shaq: 11 (scoring, FG%)
Kareem: 8 (scoring, rebounding, blocks, FG%)
Magic: 7 (assists, steals, FT%)
Russell: 5 (rebounds)
Hakeem: 5 (rebounds, blocks)
Bird: 4 (FT%)
Kobe: 2 (scoring
Lebron: 1 (scoring)

[Marchesk]

If blocks had been recorded back then, it might be something like 35.

[KembaWalker]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/377d9cb42814ab87f0a7cc2b8118453e/tumblr_mp5rejDbs91rrhadyo1_250.gif

[StephHamann]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/377d9cb42814ab87f0a7cc2b8118453e/tumblr_mp5rejDbs91rrhadyo1_250.gif

:roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

Great post :applause:

[sundizz]

I led my local intramural league in dimes, steals, and three pointers.

Wilt doing that nonsense in a 15 team league with no other superstars except another tall, athletic, offensively lacking big man is laughable.

Also, why not list someone like Rodman or Stockton?

Stockton:
Assists - 8 times
Steals - 2 times
True shooting % - 3 times
Effective field goal % - 1 time
Offensive rating - 3 times
Offensive plus minus - 1 times

Total = 18

[4 Inches]

Greatest statpadder of all time :bowdown:

[Angel Face]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/377d9cb42814ab87f0a7cc2b8118453e/tumblr_mp5rejDbs91rrhadyo1_250.gif

:pimp:

[Asukal]

All those individual records... yet only 2. Truly the GOAT in choking. :bowdown:

[Angel Face]

Didn't he also had the biggest drop off of ppg from reg season to playoffs to finals in NBA history. Damn!

[ImKobe]

Playoffs:

MJ: 12
Kobe: 3
Lebron: 2

[unknowns8]

Playoffs:

MJ: 12
Kobe: 3
Lebron: 2


whats the 12 consist of ... PTS + AST.... maybe a STL in there too, I dunno - am curious though

[senelcoolidge]

Most dominate player ever. Too bad he played during the 60's when the Celtics were rolling. He could have won several more championships. I mean he carried some lackluster rosters to the finals multiple times.

[LAZERUSS]

Didn't he also had the biggest drop off of ppg from reg season to playoffs to finals in NBA history. Damn!

Well, to be fair to Wilt...he was routinely facing Russell in either the first or second round almost every post-season of the 60's. Furthermore, Russell beefed up his post-season stats against the Lakers in five Finals (actually six, but in the one in which he faced Wilt he did nothing.) Had Chamberlain had the opportunity to have battled the Lakers even once in the decade of the 60's, and he would certainly hold some scoring and efficiency records.

Interesting too that MJ's numbers declined considerably when he faced the prime Bad Boys from '88 thru '90; Shaq's numbers dropped considerably when he faced the Robinson-led Spurs from '99 thru '02; and Kareem's dropped off the cliff when he battled Wilt and Thurmond in five post-season series early in the 70's.

Unfortunately for Wilt...he faced Russell and his swarming Celtics EIGHT times in the decade of the 60's.

[Marchesk]

Wilt doing that nonsense in a 15 team league with no other superstars except another tall, athletic, offensively lacking big man is laughable.

Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit, Bellamy, Thurmond, Unseld, Kareem, Reed, Gus Johnson, Hondo, Sam Jones, etc.

Meanwhile, Nash has the same number of MVPs as Shaq + Kobe. :oldlol:

[julizaver]

Well, to be fair to Wilt...he was routinely facing Russell in either the first or second round almost every post-season of the 60's. Furthermore, Russell beefed up his post-season stats against the Lakers in five Finals (actually six, but in the one in which he faced Wilt he did nothing.) Had Chamberlain had the opportunity to have battled the Lakers even once in the decade of the 60's, and he would certainly hold some scoring and efficiency records.


The prove:
- a past his prime Wilt, just returning from season ending injury (1969-70), and few months ahead of his 34th birthday had a game 6 vs Knicks (without Reed) in which he had 45 points (on 20 from 27), 27 rebs, 3 asists. And his series averages were among the best ever registered by a center.
Why I post that particular game, because it is the only game from 6 Finals series where Wilt doesn't have HOF opposition at center.

- when facing non-Celtics teams in the post season in his high scoring Wariors days (1959-64) his series averages were around 38 points per game.

- he had games vs Lakers, where his dominance was ...comical and had numbers, which are hard to believe. (78 points - 43 rebs game)

[LAZERUSS]

The prove:
- a past his prime Wilt, just returning from season ending injury (1969-70), and few months ahead of his 34th birthday had a game 6 vs Knicks (without Reed) in which he had 45 points (on 20 from 27), 27 rebs, 3 asists. And his series averages were among the best ever registered by a center.
Why I post that particular game, because it is the only game from 6 Finals series where Wilt doesn't have HOF opposition at center.

- when facing non-Celtics teams in the post season in his high scoring Wariors days (1959-64) his series averages were around 38 points per game.

- he had games vs Lakers, where his dominance was ...comical and had numbers, which are hard to believe. (78 points - 43 rebs game)

Yep...Chamberlain slaughtered the "Todd McCulloughs" of his era, in the few playoff series in which he faced one.

[Psileas]

In scoring, rebounding, assists (total) or FG%.

Jordan: 13 (scoring, steals)
Shaq: 11 (scoring, FG%)
Kareem: 8 (scoring, rebounding, blocks, FG%)
Magic: 7 (assists, steals, FT%)
Russell: 5 (rebounds)
Hakeem: 5 (rebounds, blocks)
Bird: 4 (FT%)
Kobe: 2 (scoring
Lebron: 1 (scoring)

Plus, in the playoffs, where Wilt is supposedly not a GOAT level performer:

Wilt: 11 (scoring, rebounding, FG% - would be more, accounting for blocked shots)
Jordan: 12 (scoring, steals)
Shaq: 6 (scoring, rebounding, blocks, FG%)
Kareem: 13 (scoring, rebounding, blocks, FG%)
Magic: 7 (assists, steals)
Russell: 7 (rebounds - would be more, accounting for blocked shots)
Hakeem: 8 (scoring, rebounds, blocks)
Bird: 0
Kobe: 2 (scoring)
Lebron: 2 (scoring)

[LAZERUSS]

Plus, in the playoffs, where Wilt is supposedly not a GOAT level performer:

Wilt: 11 (scoring, rebounding, FG% - would be more, accounting for blocked shots)
Jordan: 12 (scoring, steals)
Shaq: 6 (scoring, rebounding, blocks, FG%)
Kareem: 13 (scoring, rebounding, blocks, FG%)
Magic: 7 (assists, steals)
Russell: 7 (rebounds - would be more, accounting for blocked shots)
Hakeem: 8 (scoring, rebounds, blocks)
Bird: 0
Kobe: 2 (scoring)
Lebron: 2 (scoring)

I believe that Julizaver last had Chamberlain with 591 post-season blocks in his 81 known games...or considerably more in 81 games, than what Duncan has had in his 241 playoff games (555.)

[Marchesk]

I believe that Julizaver last had Chamberlain with 591 post-season blocks in his 81 known games...or considerably more in 81 games, than what Duncan has had in his 241 playoff games (555.)

7.3 blocks per game in the post season. Do you have the numbers from his last post season? Kareem averaged 2.4 blocks the next year in the playoffs. That led the league. Looking at BR, Kareem led the postseason in blocks for five consecutive seasons after Wilt retired, and his highest was 4.1.

[LAZERUSS]

7.3 blocks per game in the post season. Do you have the numbers from his last post season? Kareem averaged 2.4 blocks the next year in the playoffs. That led the league. Looking at BR, Kareem led the postseason in blocks for five consecutive seasons after Wilt retired, and his highest was 4.1.

nbastats.net has Wilt with 46 blocks in 5 known games.

I believe that Julizaver had an article that claimed that Wilt had a total of 49 blocks in the seven game Bulls series. Then, Julizaver had Wilt with 29 known blocks in four of the five game series against the Warriors in the WCF's. And we know he had 7 blocks in game one of the Finals.

Using that data...

Chamberlain had a total of 85 blocks in his known 12 games (out of 17 total)...or 7.2 bpg. Even if we don't give Wilt any blocks in his other five games, he would still have averaged 5.0 bpg in the '73 post-season.

[jlip]

In scoring, rebounding, assists (total) or FG%.

Jordan: 13 (scoring, steals)
Shaq: 11 (scoring, FG%)
Kareem: 8 (scoring, rebounding, blocks, FG%)
Magic: 7 (assists, steals, FT%)
Russell: 5 (rebounds)
Hakeem: 5 (rebounds, blocks)
Bird: 4 (FT%)
Kobe: 2 (scoring
Lebron: 1 (scoring)



I didn't feel like starting another thread but I was just looking at Kareem statistically. Looking at his first 16 seasons...1970-1985

Reg. season
26.6ppg 12.5rpg 4.0apg 3.0bpg 56.2fg% 71.8 ft%

Playoffs
27.4ppg 12.6rpg 3.8apg 3.0bpg 54.0fg% 72.9ft%

At that time his 27.4ppg was 2nd all time for retired players behind only Jerry West.

In the reg. season he had led the league in:
Scoring- 2X
Rebounding- 1X
Fg%- 1X
Blocks- 4X

In the playoffs he had led the league in:
Scoring- 5X
Rebounding- 1X
Fg%- 1X
Blocks- 6X

...

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, Chamberlain had a known 80 blocked shots, in 10 known post-season games, in his '72 title run.

He had a 9 block game in the first game of the first round; 33 known blocks against the Bucks in 4 known games of the WCF's (15 against Kareem); and ThaRegul8r had Chamberlain with 38 blocks in his five finals games... or 80 blocks in 10 known games... 8.0 bpg. Even if you give him zero in his other five post-season games, he would still have averaged 5.3 bpg in his '72 post-season.

[ImKobe]

BTW, Chamberlain had a known 80 blocked shots, in 10 known post-season games, in his '72 title run.

He had a 9 block game in the first game of the first round; 33 known blocks against the Bucks in 4 known games of the WCF's (15 against Kareem); and ThaRegul8r had Chamberlain with 38 blocks in his five finals games... or 80 blocks in 10 known games... 8.0 bpg. Even if you give him zero in his other five post-season games, he would still have averaged 5.3 bpg in his '72 post-season.

lol ok

[WillC]

In scoring, rebounding, assists (total) or FG%.

Jordan: 13 (scoring, steals)
Shaq: 11 (scoring, FG%)
Kareem: 8 (scoring, rebounding, blocks, FG%)
Magic: 7 (assists, steals, FT%)
Russell: 5 (rebounds)
Hakeem: 5 (rebounds, blocks)
Bird: 4 (FT%)
Kobe: 2 (scoring
Lebron: 1 (scoring)

I find it curious that you left Oscar Robertson off your list:

Oscar Robertson: 10 (APG, PPG, FT%)

He also led the league in total FTs four times.

He's the most underrated pantheon level player.

[Marchesk]

I find it curious that you left Oscar Robertson off your list:

Oscar Robertson: 10 (APG, PPG, FT%)


I didn't feel like listing every great player, just some of them as a comparison. I think MJ is probably second to Wilt in the regular season in leading the league with 13 (for regular stats, not advanced).

[IncarceratedBob]

has anyone asked jeff to make a modern era NBA board for legit topics people are interested in and a pre modern forum for trash like this

[Westbrook0]

Most dominate player ever. Too bad he played during the 60's when the Celtics were rolling. He could have won several more championships. I mean he carried some lackluster rosters to the finals multiple times.

dominant*

[TheMan]

Well, to be fair to Wilt...he was routinely facing Russell in either the first or second round almost every post-season of the 60's. Furthermore, Russell beefed up his post-season stats against the Lakers in five Finals (actually six, but in the one in which he faced Wilt he did nothing.) Had Chamberlain had the opportunity to have battled the Lakers even once in the decade of the 60's, and he would certainly hold some scoring and efficiency records.

Interesting too that MJ's numbers declined considerably when he faced the prime Bad Boys from '88 thru '90; Shaq's numbers dropped considerably when he faced the Robinson-led Spurs from '99 thru '02; and Kareem's dropped off the cliff when he battled Wilt and Thurmond in five post-season series early in the 70's.

Unfortunately for Wilt...he faced Russell and his swarming Celtics EIGHT times in the decade of the 60's.:biggums:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Tom_heinsohn_Celt.JPG/220px-Tom_heinsohn_Celt.JPG
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/1953%E2%80%9354_Boston_Celtics_practice.jpeg
http://www.posters.ws/images/836398/bob_cousy_with_ball_photofile.jpg
http://backtoth60s.weebly.com/uploads/2/4/6/1/24612828/6414788_orig.jpg
:facepalm

[ClipperRevival]

dominant*

:oldlol: Jesus Christ, are you like the spelling police? You always correct people and their spelling.

[DonDadda59]

:biggums:

Yeah, the pre Civil Rights Act era NBA was a disaster. A third tier league, and the players (including Chamberlain) knew how much of a joke it was.

The fact that no video evidence of Wilt's 100 point game exists when I can watch clips of Lew Alcindor in High School tells you just how seriously everyone involved took the NBA. The Sixers during Wilt's prime averaged about 5,000 paying fans per game and no station carried their games. More people pay to see Summer League and D-League (hell even WNBA) games today than they did NBA games back then.

The league didn't even start to really get its act together until the post ABA merger and the Larry/Magic rivalry turned the NBA into an actual first rate league.

The man who assisted on Wilt's 100th point basket:


In this time of multi-billion-dollar TV contracts, global media coverage and yes, Linsanity, it's worth noting that on March 2, 1962, an NBA game involving the sport's most dominant figure barely warranted news coverage. Even when the Warriors and Knicks met again two days later at Madison Square Garden in New York, only 9,346 fans showed up -- about half the Garden's capacity.

The game, and the nation, were paused between eras. Two years before the Civil Rights Act would pass, black players in the NBA believed there was an unwritten quota of four blacks per team.

"The NBA was bush league in those days," said Joe Ruklick, a 6-foot-9 backup from Northwestern who, at 23, threw the pass that set up Chamberlain's historic basket. "We washed our own uniforms. My wife washed my uniform, which wasn't necessary a lot. But Wilt used to put his uniform in a bag and forget to wash it for a half-dozen games. We traveled coach. Meal money was $8 a day. Some guys used to carry their lunch."

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/17537196/fact-and-legend-surround-wilts-100-and-thats-part-of-the-charm

Wilt Chamberlain himself in 1965:

http://i33.tinypic.com/1z66268.jpg

Everyone, including Chamberlain, knew how much of a joke the NBA was then. He made double playing for the Globe Trotters what he did playing for the Warriors, and he was the highest paid player in the league ($30,000 per year).

[LAZERUSS]

Yeah, the pre Civil Rights Act era NBA was a disaster. A third tier league, and the players (including Chamberlain) knew how much of a joke it was.

The fact that no video evidence of Wilt's 100 point game exists when I can watch clips of Lew Alcindor in High School tells you just how seriously everyone involved took the NBA. The Sixers during Wilt's prime averaged about 5,000 paying fans per game and no station carried their games. More people pay to see Summer League and D-League (hell even WNBA) games today than they did NBA games back then.

The league didn't even start to really get its act together until the post ABA merger and the Larry/Magic rivalry turned the NBA into an actual first rate league.

The man who assisted on Wilt's 100th point basket:


In this time of multi-billion-dollar TV contracts, global media coverage and yes, Linsanity, it's worth noting that on March 2, 1962, an NBA game involving the sport's most dominant figure barely warranted news coverage. Even when the Warriors and Knicks met again two days later at Madison Square Garden in New York, only 9,346 fans showed up -- about half the Garden's capacity.

The game, and the nation, were paused between eras. Two years before the Civil Rights Act would pass, black players in the NBA believed there was an unwritten quota of four blacks per team.

"The NBA was bush league in those days," said Joe Ruklick, a 6-foot-9 backup from Northwestern who, at 23, threw the pass that set up Chamberlain's historic basket. "We washed our own uniforms. My wife washed my uniform, which wasn't necessary a lot. But Wilt used to put his uniform in a bag and forget to wash it for a half-dozen games. We traveled coach. Meal money was $8 a day. Some guys used to carry their lunch."

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/17537196/fact-and-legend-surround-wilts-100-and-thats-part-of-the-charm

Wilt Chamberlain himself in 1965:

http://i33.tinypic.com/1z66268.jpg

Everyone, including Chamberlain, knew how much of a joke the NBA was then. He made double playing for the Globe Trotters what he did playing for the Warriors, and he was the highest paid player in the league ($30,000 per year).

Everything you need to know about the talent of the 60's...

A PEAK Kareem faced an aging full-time Thurmond in 37 career H2H's ('69 thru '73.) In those 37 games, a PEAK Kareem's HIGH game against Nate was... 34 points. And, in those 37 H2H's, a PEAK KAJ had a TOTAL of FIVE 30+ games against an aging Thurmond. And how about this...in those 37 games, a PEAK Kareem shot a combined... .447... against Thurmond.

Fast-forward to the mid-80's. A 38-39 year old Kareem, barely able to get 6 rpg, ...hung a TEN STRAIGHT GAME STREAK on a 22-23 year old Hakeem, in which he AVERAGED 32 ppg...on get this... a .630 FG%. And, in those TEN straight games, a 38-39 year old Kareem hung SIX games of 30+, with highs of 40, 43, and 46 points (and on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) Then, the next year, a 40 year old KAJ outscored a 24 year old Hakeem in their four H2H games...and outshot from the field by a .567 to .403 margin.

Overall, a 38-41 year old Kareem outscored a 22-25 year old Hakeem in their 23 H2H games, and outshot him by a .607 to .512 margin. And in those 23 H2H's, Kareem had TWENTY games of .500+; TWELVE games of .600+; and FIVE games of .700 shooting against Hakeem.

Obviously Hakeem was a POS, right?

[ClipperRevival]

Everything you need to know about the talent of the 60's...

A PEAK Kareem faced an aging full-time Thurmond in 37 career H2H's ('69 thru '73.) In those 37 games, a PEAK Kareem's HIGH game against Nate was... 34 points. And, in those 37 H2H's, a PEAK KAJ had a TOTAL of FIVE 30+ games against an aging Thurmond. And how about this...in those 37 games, a PEAK Kareem shot a combined... .447... against Thurmond.

Fast-forward to the mid-80's. A 38-39 year old Kareem, barely able to get 6 rpg, ...hung a TEN STRAIGHT GAME STREAK on a 22-23 year old Hakeem, in which he AVERAGED 32 ppg...on get this... a .630 FG%. And, in those TEN straight games, a 38-39 year old Kareem hung SIX games of 30+, with highs of 40, 43, and 46 points (and on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) Then, the next year, a 40 year old KAJ outscored a 24 year old Hakeem in their four H2H games...and outshot from the field by a .567 to .403 margin.

Overall, a 38-41 year old Kareem outscored a 22-25 year old Hakeem in their 23 H2H games, and outshot him by a .607 to .512 margin. And in those 23 H2H's, Kareem had TWENTY games of .500+; TWELVE games of .600+; and FIVE games of .700 shooting against Hakeem.

Obviously Hakeem was a POS, right?

But you're talking about a specific player, who happens to be an all-time great and HOFer. That doesn't necessarily reflect the talent pool of that era. Greatness is greatness and transcends eras. Thurmond was great so what does that really prove?

Are you saying that the talent pool during the 60's was nearly as strong as the talent pool since the 1980's to the present?

[NuggetsFan]

One thing I've always wondered about back than is how many mistakes there was. Think of today how many times they have to change a rebound, assist, bucket, fouls to another player. Assists especially there are teams that give them out way easier.

Not to mention opinions. Think of today when players, coaches, fans etc. speak. Makes you wonder just how accurate things are. The fact that Wilt's 100 point game wasn't televised is always insane to me. Isn't there only audio for the 4th quarter too?

[DonDadda59]

Everything you need to know about the talent of the 60's...

A PEAK Kareem faced an aging full-time Thurmond in 37 career H2H's ('69 thru '73.) In those 37 games, a PEAK Kareem's HIGH game against Nate was... 34 points. And, in those 37 H2H's, a PEAK KAJ had a TOTAL of FIVE 30+ games against an aging Thurmond. And how about this...in those 37 games, a PEAK Kareem shot a combined... .447... against Thurmond.

Fast-forward to the mid-80's. A 38-39 year old Kareem, barely able to get 6 rpg, ...hung a TEN STRAIGHT GAME STREAK on a 22-23 year old Hakeem, in which he AVERAGED 32 ppg...on get this... a .630 FG%. And, in those TEN straight games, a 38-39 year old Kareem hung SIX games of 30+, with highs of 40, 43, and 46 points (and on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) Then, the next year, a 40 year old KAJ outscored a 24 year old Hakeem in their four H2H games...and outshot from the field by a .567 to .403 margin.

Overall, a 38-41 year old Kareem outscored a 22-25 year old Hakeem in their 23 H2H games, and outshot him by a .607 to .512 margin. And in those 23 H2H's, Kareem had TWENTY games of .500+; TWELVE games of .600+; and FIVE games of .700 shooting against Hakeem.

Obviously Hakeem was a POS, right?

6'9" 230 lbs Center Dave Cowens shit all over Wilt (averagde 31/20 vs Stilt in 4 H2Hs). Cowens averaged 6 PPG against Bill Laimbeer in 5 H2Hs. Shaq averaged 25/14/3 BPG vs 11/5 in 5 H2Hs vs Laimbeer.

Therefore, Shaq>>>>>>Laimbeer>>>>>Wilt.

Triangle theories don't change the fact that the Big Dipper himself wrote articles about how the NBA during his prime was an absolute joke of a third tier league, if even that. A 'Bush League' in Stilt's own words.

[TheMan]

But you're talking about a specific player, who happens to be an all-time great and HOFer. That doesn't necessarily reflect the talent pool of that era. Greatness is greatness and transcends eras. Thurmond was great so what does that really prove?

Are you saying that the talent pool during the 60's was nearly as strong as the talent pool since the 1980's to the present?
This

No one disputes Nate Thurmond being an all time great, what most of us are disputing is the overall talent level. LOOSERUS knows damn well Chamberlain ain't averaging 50 ppg a season in the modern game. :facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

But you're talking about a specific player, who happens to be an all-time great and HOFer. That doesn't necessarily reflect the talent pool of that era. Greatness is greatness and transcends eras. Thurmond was great so what does that really prove?

Are you saying that the talent pool during the 60's was nearly as strong as the talent pool since the 1980's to the present?

You bet I am.

Let me ask you this...

Give me the EXACT season in which the NBA became better than the previous season. I have read some here who believe the NBA "modernized" in 1979-80, when Bird and Magic came into the league. Let's use that season, shall we?

Guess what, the MVP that season, and for the next several seasons, would be players that played in the 70's (and even one who played in the 60's.) Same thing with the PPG leader, the RPG leader, and the FG% leader...all players who had played in the 70's.

Want more? Artis Gilmore badly outplayed Hakeem in their 10 H2H's from 84-85 thru 85-86 (24 ppg on ...get this... a .677 FG%.) An ancient Moses, way past his prime, outrebounded a prime Hakeem in a season in which Hakeem led the NBA in RPG, in their H2H's that season.

The problem with this THEORY that the game has "evolved" is that...it has been played since the 1890's. COLLEGES were playing in the late 1890's. PROFESSIONAL teams were playing in the 1920's. The NBA was formed in 1946.

Furthermore, the game has changed LITTLE since it was invented. Other than the 24 second clock, and the 3pt shot (which was actually used in the ABA in the 60's BTW)...the game is essentially the SAME. Oh sure, there have been MINOR tweaks to the rules, like goal-tending, 3 seconds, zone defense rules, etc...but again...MINOR.

Hell, the NBA widened the lane before the start of the 64-65 season in a rule that was aimed strictly at WILT. Guess what? It didn't affect Chamberlain AT ALL. In fact, in the first half of the 64-65 season, Wilt was averaging 39 ppg, which was an INCREASE over his 37 ppg average just the season before. If anything, the widening of the lane affected the REST of the league, FAR more than it did Wilt. The league-wide eFG%'s dropped! Meanwhile, Chamberlain continued to pour in 60+ point games every season throughout the 60's.

The game played today, is essentially the same game that was played in the early 1900's. Same number of players; same court dimensions; same basket height and width; basically the same size ball; with basically the SAME rules.

And it is a SIMPLE game. Players dribble, pass, shoot, rebound, and defend. Nothing new there since the 1890's.

You want another interesting fact? Thanks to the research conducted by our very own CavsFTW...players are essentially the SAME HEIGHT, today...as they were in 1962, when Wilt averaged 50 ppg. The average starting center in 1962 was 6-10. The average starting center in 2015 was 6-11. BUT, adjust for the measuring methods (players without shoes in the 60's, and players with shoes in 2015), and they are essentially the SAME height.

I could go on...but the talent levels in the NBA have changed LITTLE in the last 50 years. And if you honestly believe that "globalization" has made a difference...then I ask you...where are all of the Magic's, Bird's, Shaq's, Kareem's, MJ's, and Wilt's? I remember Pat Riley envisioning an NBA in which a team would field FIVE "Magics." Guess what? There hasn't been anyone even remotely close since the original.

And the reality is/was, there is such a minute difference in talent between the average players of today, and the average players of 50 years ago. And the good players back then, would be just as good today. And even you agree...the greats of any era...would be great today.

[DonDadda59]

LOOSERUS knows damn well Chamberlain ain't averaging 50 ppg a season in the modern game. :facepalm

Forget the modern game, dude was a 20 PPG scorer by 29/30 when the talent pool had gotten better/deeper in the post Civil Rights act era.

[TheMan]

You bet I am.

Let me ask you this...

Give me the EXACT season in which the NBA became better than the previous season. I have read some here who believe the NBA "modernized" in 1979-80, when Bird and Magic came into the league. Let's use that season, shall we?

Guess what, the MVP that season, and for the next several seasons, would be players that played in the 70's (and even one who played in the 60's.) Same thing with the PPG leader, the RPG leader, and the FG% leader...all players who had played in the 70's.

Want more? Artis Gilmore badly outplayed Hakeem in their 10 H2H's from 84-85 thru 85-86 (24 ppg on ...get this... a .677 FG%.) An ancient Moses, way past his prime, outrebounded a prime Hakeem in a season in which Hakeem led the NBA in RPG, in their H2H's that season.

The problem with this THEORY that the game has "evolved" is that...it has been played since the 1890's. COLLEGES were playing in the late 1890's. PROFESSIONAL teams were playing in the 1920's. The NBA was formed in 1946.

Furthermore, the game has changed LITTLE since it was invented. Other than the 24 second clock, and the 3pt shot (which was actually used in the ABA in the 60's BTW)...the game is essentially the SAME. Oh sure, there have been MINOR tweaks to the rules, like goal-tending, 3 seconds, zone defense rules, etc...but again...MINOR.

Hell, the NBA widened the lane before the start of the 64-65 season in a rule that was aimed strictly at WILT. Guess what? It didn't affect Chamberlain AT ALL. In fact, in the first half of the 64-65 season, Wilt was averaging 39 ppg, which was an INCREASE over his 37 ppg average just the season before. If anything, the widening of the lane affected the REST of the league, FAR more than it did Wilt. The league-wide eFG%'s dropped! Meanwhile, Chamberlain continued to pour in 60+ point games every season throughout the 60's.

The game played today, is essentially the same game that was played in the early 1900's. Same number of players; same court dimensions; same basket height and width; basically the same size ball; with basically the SAME rules.

And it is a SIMPLE game. Players dribble, pass, shoot, rebound, and defend. Nothing new there since the 1890's.

You want another interesting fact? Thanks to the research conducted by our very own CavsFTW...players are essentially the SAME HEIGHT, today...as they were in 1962, when Wilt averaged 50 ppg. The average starting center in 1962 was 6-10. The average starting center in 2015 was 6-11. BUT, adjust for the measuring methods (players without shoes in the 60's, and players with shoes in 2015), and they are essentially the SAME height.

I could go on...but the talent levels in the NBA have changed LITTLE in the last 50 years. And if you honestly believe that "globalization" has made a difference...then I ask you...where are all of the Magic's, Bird's, Shaq's, Kareem's, MJ's, and Wilt's? I remember Pat Riley envisioning an NBA in which a team would field FIVE "Magics." Guess what? There hasn't been anyone even remotely close since the original.

And the reality is/was, there is such a minute difference in talent between the average players of today, and the average players of 50 years ago. And the good players back then, would be just as good today. And even you agree...the greats of any era...would be great today.
Let me ask you this, how many ppg does 61-62 Wilt score in 95 NBA, 05 NBA and 2015 NBA? And what changed to affect his scoring, if at all?

[catch24]

After ALL these years of unearthed footage, Wilt naysayers still run rampant :biggums:


6'9" 230 lbs Center Dave Cowens shit all over Wilt (averagde 31/20 vs Stilt in 4 H2Hs). Cowens averaged 6 PPG against Bill Laimbeer in 5 H2Hs. Shaq averaged 25/14/3 BPG vs 11/5 in 5 H2Hs vs Laimbeer.

Therefore, Shaq>>>>>>Laimbeer>>>>>Wilt.

Triangle theories don't change the fact that the Big Dipper himself wrote articles about how the NBA during his prime was an absolute joke of a third tier league, if even that. A 'Bush League' in Stilt's own words.

Since 'whatever wilt says = fact', then surely you would agree with him saying he'd be THE best player in the 80s and 90s, better than Kareem, and that he would average over 50+ in the modern era (back in the 90's when he and Bill were interviewed by Bob Costas).

In Stilt's own words right? :confusedshrug:

[LAZERUSS]

Forget the modern game, dude was a 20 PPG scorer by 29/30 when the talent pool had gotten better/deeper in the post Civil Rights act era.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

On 1/27/1969, Sports Illustrated ran an article basically claiming that a 32 year old Wilt could no longer score.

Unfortunately for them, just the night before that article hit the newsstands...Chamberlain hung a 60 point game (on Connie Dierking...the same Dierking that Kareem's high game against would be 41 points BTW.) A couple of nights later, Chamberlain hung a 66 point game (on 29-35 shooting, which is the highest FG% in a 60+ point game in NBA history.) And Chamberlain extended that rampage over the course of 17 straight games (which included a 35 point game against Russell)...in which he averaged 31.1 ppg.

After Wilt's incompetent coach was fired following the '69 Finals, the Lakers brought in a new coach, Joe Mullaney. His first order of business was to ask WILT to become the focal point of the offense. In Wilt's first nine games, he led the NBA in scoring at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%.) And this average was not inflated by one or two big games, either. He pounded rookie Kareem with a 25-20 9-14 game; he hung games of 33 (33 points in 28 minutes BTW), 35, 37 (against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle), 38 (against the reigning MVP Wes Unseld); 42 (against Bob Rule...go ahead and look him up); and 43 points (against Dierking...a player that Kareem could "only" hit 41 against.)

Unfortunately, Chamberlain shredded his knee in that ninth game, and would never be the same offensive force again.

BUT, from '60 thru '69, Chamberlain was capable of 60+ point games anytime he stepped on the floor.

[TheMan]

Let me ask you this, how many ppg does 61-62 Wilt score in 95 NBA, 05 NBA and 2015 NBA? And what changed to affect his scoring, if at all?
Waiting...

[DonDadda59]

After ALL these years of unearthed footage, Wilt naysayers still run rampant :biggums:



Since 'whatever wilt says = fact', then surely you would agree with him saying he'd be THE best player in the 80s and 90s, better than Kareem, and that he would average over 50+ in the modern era (back in the 90's when he and Bill were interviewed by Bob Costas).

In Stilt's own words right? :confusedshrug:

Him saying those things about a time he was retired are hypothetical. And the only thing Wilt was GOAT in was hyping himself up. When he called the NBA a Bush League, it was in 1965, during his actual playing prime. Hypothetical vs Reality, not too hard to figure out.


On 1/27/1969, Sports Illustrated ran an article basically claiming that a 32 year old Wilt could no longer score.

Was the article penned by Chamberlain himself like his 'My Life in a Bush League' series? :confusedshrug:

[La Frescobaldi]

6'9" 230 lbs Center Dave Cowens shit all over Wilt (averagde 31/20 vs Stilt in 4 H2Hs). Cowens averaged 6 PPG against Bill Laimbeer in 5 H2Hs. Shaq averaged 25/14/3 BPG vs 11/5 in 5 H2Hs vs Laimbeer.

Therefore, Shaq>>>>>>Laimbeer>>>>>Wilt.

Triangle theories don't change the fact that the Big Dipper himself wrote articles about how the NBA during his prime was an absolute joke of a third tier league, if even that. A 'Bush League' in Stilt's own words.

Obviously you never read that article or it would be the last thing you'd use to support your opinion. You'd want that buried.

[Marchesk]

has anyone asked jeff to make a modern era NBA board for legit topics people are interested in and a pre modern forum for trash like this

Right, we need to stick to more variations on Lebron and Kobe themed threads, because they get buried by all the old time ones.

[kennethgriffin]

kobe lead the league in points 4 times


that should count for something considering wilts assist leading season is counted for total assists and not APG

[Marchesk]

Let me ask you this, how many ppg does 61-62 Wilt score in 95 NBA, 05 NBA and 2015 NBA? And what changed to affect his scoring, if at all?

His 67 season was his peak:

24.1/24.2/7.8 on 68%, 68 wins, championship.

Thing is you need to ask yourself what a legitimate 7'1 player with a 9'6 standing reach, a 39 inch vertical (according to newspaper Cavs found), a track star, a guy who scored more than Oscar, Baylor, West, etc would do in this era.

He's going to be leading the league in rebounding and blocked shots. Now the question is how many points and assists and on what FG% in a slower era that values efficiency. Imagine surrounding Wilt with 3 pt shooters and playmakers. You think prime Dwight was good on Orlando.

[Marchesk]

:biggums:
http://www.posters.ws/images/836398/bob_cousy_with_ball_photofile.jpg

http://d1warraxuf7xh1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/stevenash2006.jpg

I got twice as many MVPs as Kobe or Shaq.
-------------------------------------------------------

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/oscar-robertson-cincinnati.jpg

I only got one MVP while averaging a 30 pt triple double for 7 seasons.

[Marchesk]

http://backtoth60s.weebly.com/uploads/2/4/6/1/24612828/6414788_orig.jpg

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/LeBron+James+Jose+Juan+Barea+Dallas+Mavericks+wj19 jZVhtK0l.jpg

[ClipperRevival]

You bet I am.

Let me ask you this...

Give me the EXACT season in which the NBA became better than the previous season. I have read some here who believe the NBA "modernized" in 1979-80, when Bird and Magic came into the league. Let's use that season, shall we?

Guess what, the MVP that season, and for the next several seasons, would be players that played in the 70's (and even one who played in the 60's.) Same thing with the PPG leader, the RPG leader, and the FG% leader...all players who had played in the 70's.

Want more? Artis Gilmore badly outplayed Hakeem in their 10 H2H's from 84-85 thru 85-86 (24 ppg on ...get this... a .677 FG%.) An ancient Moses, way past his prime, outrebounded a prime Hakeem in a season in which Hakeem led the NBA in RPG, in their H2H's that season.

The problem with this THEORY that the game has "evolved" is that...it has been played since the 1890's. COLLEGES were playing in the late 1890's. PROFESSIONAL teams were playing in the 1920's. The NBA was formed in 1946.

Furthermore, the game has changed LITTLE since it was invented. Other than the 24 second clock, and the 3pt shot (which was actually used in the ABA in the 60's BTW)...the game is essentially the SAME. Oh sure, there have been MINOR tweaks to the rules, like goal-tending, 3 seconds, zone defense rules, etc...but again...MINOR.

Hell, the NBA widened the lane before the start of the 64-65 season in a rule that was aimed strictly at WILT. Guess what? It didn't affect Chamberlain AT ALL. In fact, in the first half of the 64-65 season, Wilt was averaging 39 ppg, which was an INCREASE over his 37 ppg average just the season before. If anything, the widening of the lane affected the REST of the league, FAR more than it did Wilt. The league-wide eFG%'s dropped! Meanwhile, Chamberlain continued to pour in 60+ point games every season throughout the 60's.

The game played today, is essentially the same game that was played in the early 1900's. Same number of players; same court dimensions; same basket height and width; basically the same size ball; with basically the SAME rules.

And it is a SIMPLE game. Players dribble, pass, shoot, rebound, and defend. Nothing new there since the 1890's.

You want another interesting fact? Thanks to the research conducted by our very own CavsFTW...players are essentially the SAME HEIGHT, today...as they were in 1962, when Wilt averaged 50 ppg. The average starting center in 1962 was 6-10. The average starting center in 2015 was 6-11. BUT, adjust for the measuring methods (players without shoes in the 60's, and players with shoes in 2015), and they are essentially the SAME height.

I could go on...but the talent levels in the NBA have changed LITTLE in the last 50 years. And if you honestly believe that "globalization" has made a difference...then I ask you...where are all of the Magic's, Bird's, Shaq's, Kareem's, MJ's, and Wilt's? I remember Pat Riley envisioning an NBA in which a team would field FIVE "Magics." Guess what? There hasn't been anyone even remotely close since the original.

And the reality is/was, there is such a minute difference in talent between the average players of today, and the average players of 50 years ago. And the good players back then, would be just as good today. And even you agree...the greats of any era...would be great today.

Talent pool is not the same has having a great player or two dominate an era. If you honestly think the talent pool hasn't changed much since the 60's, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[LAZERUSS]

Him saying those things about a time he was retired are hypothetical. And the only thing Wilt was GOAT in was hyping himself up. When he called the NBA a Bush League, it was in 1965, during his actual playing prime. Hypothetical vs Reality, not too hard to figure out.



Was the article penned by Chamberlain himself like his 'My Life in a Bush League' series? :confusedshrug:

http://www.si.com/vault/1969/01/27/559068/on-topbut-in-trouble

[QUOTE]The main problem on the court is not that Chamberlain, Baylor and West do not get the ball enough. [B]It is that Chamberlain will not

[Marchesk]

Talent pool is not the same has having a great player or two dominate an era. If you honestly think the talent pool hasn't changed much since the 60's, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Maybe so, but it was more than one or two players. You would need to argue that the overall talent wasn't as deep or good, because the top talent in the 60s is actually pretty damn good, and it's considered the best era for bigs along with the 90s.

[Marchesk]

Gus Johnson was 6'6, 230 in the 60s.

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/gusjohnson500.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WPxPfxWt8vQ/UQyTpLxGKUI/AAAAAAAAEFo/AgnZwjF2kL4/s800/GusJohnsonDunk.gif

His top ppg was 20.7.

[Hey Yo]

whats the 12 consist of ... PTS + AST.... maybe a STL in there too, I dunno - am curious though
I see your question was never answered.

[Marchesk]

I see your question was never answered.

Jordan in the playoffs:

Scoring average: 10 times
Steals average: 2 times

(Minutes per game only once though, interesting)

[LAZERUSS]

Talent pool is not the same has having a great player or two dominate an era. If you honestly think the talent pool hasn't changed much since the 60's, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

This 6-8 white guy was a great rebounder who played in the 60's, but couldn't win even one rpg title?

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/history/legends/jerry-lucas/jerry-lucas-300c.jpg


And yet, this 6-8 white guy led the league in rpg and in only 35.8 mpg just a few years ago...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7TnbhJr8iY


This 6-3 guy won B2B MVPs less than a decade ago...

http://www.sikids.com/images/cms/imce/users/acezinger668/2012/10/Steve-nash-bowtie-pinksweater-man-purse.jpg

This 6-5 white guy was doing this in the 60's, and yet never came close to an MVP...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ


Now, tell me just how a 6-9 1/2 Cousins, with his 28" vertical, could put up a 24-13 season, and in only 34.1 mpg.

Now, if Cousins could do that to his peers, how come this 6-11 270 lb guy's best season was "only" a 25-14, whil playing 38.9 mpg, against the much weaker talent pool of the early 70's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O12jD3gnkL0

BTW, in Wilt's LAST SEASON, and playing against a PEAK Lanier...




vs. Lanier in 6 H2H's:

Lanier: 21.2 ppg, 13.4 rpg (5 known games), .374 FG% (5 known games)

Wilt: 19.8 ppg, 16.3 rpg, .764 FG%




Are today's players more skilled?


Tell me how a Ricky Rubio, who is a career .367 shooter, can be a starter in today's NBA?

Tell me how a 36 year old, at probably 370 lbs, and just a shell of a Shaq, could put up a 45 point game as recently as 2009?

Tell me how a 6-1 170 Rajon Rondo could start 68 games last season, all hile shooting .426 from the field, and .397 from the line?

In the 58-59 season, the NBA collectively shot .756 from the FT line. Just this past season, ... .750. Oh, and in '74... .771.

Tell me how a 6-9 1/2 D Jordan, who literally cannot shoot from five feet away, and is so bad offensively, that his team doesn't even run any plays for him...could put up a 12 ppg, .710 FG% season just this last year?

Tell me how a 38 year old Tim Duncan, at probably not even 6-11 and with zero leaping ability, could put up an 18-11 .589 stat-line in this past season's playoffs?

Tell me how a 6-7 Ben Wallace could win B2B rpg titles, and four DPOY's?

I can go right down the line, but the REALITY is, today's top NBA players are no more skilled than the best players of 50 years ago.

And again, we KNOW that an old Kareem was just crushing Hakeem in a season in which Olajuwon put up a 24-12 .526 season and in 36.3 mpg. And yet, a PEAK Kareem could only shoot .447 against an aging fulltime Thurmond in their 37 career H2H's.

BTW, while Kareem was the best center of the 70's, late in that decade Bob Lanier was outplaying him in their H2H's; Gilmore was battling him to a draw; and McAdoo was routinely outscoring him in their H2H's. Even the 6-9 Cowens was giving all he could handle from the mid-70's on. Oh, and the 6-10 245 lb Moses absolutely OWNED Kareem from the late 70's into the mid-80's.

If Lanier, Thurmond, Gilmore, McAdoo, Cowens, and Moses were either close to his level, at his level, or above his level...how do you think those guys would fare in today's NBA. BTW, an old Chamberlain faced all those guys, and generally outplayed them all.

Neal Walk was nothing more than an AVERAGE center in the early 70's...and yet, he hung a 20-12 season in '73. Swen Nater backed up Bill Walton at UCLA in the early 70's. By 1980 he was leading the NBA in rpg, at 15.0 rpg, and in only 35.3 mpg. In a league that averaged 46 rpg per team. The 7-0 270 lb. Tom Boerwinkle hung a 20-39 game against a PEAK Kareem.

Again, you are severely under-rating the talent levels of the 60's and 70's. Virtually every quality player in that span would be a quality player today. The average, and even below-average players back then, would be the same today, as well.

[La Frescobaldi]

His 67 season was his peak:

24.1/24.2/7.8 on 68%, 68 wins, championship.

Thing is you need to ask yourself what a legitimate 7'1 player with a 9'6 standing reach, a 39 inch vertical (according to newspaper Cavs found), a track star, a guy who scored more than Oscar, Baylor, West, etc would do in this era.

He's going to be leading the league in rebounding and blocked shots. Now the question is how many points and assists and on what FG% in a slower era that values efficiency. Imagine surrounding Wilt with 3 pt shooters and playmakers. You think prime Dwight was good on Orlando.

He was better in '68.

[LAZERUSS]

I find this hilarious...


Forget the modern game, dude was a 20 PPG scorer by 29/30 when the talent pool had gotten better/deeper in the post Civil Rights act era

First of all, a 29 year old Wilt averaged 33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, 5.2 apg, and shot .540 from the field.

This is what a 29 year old Wilt did to his HOF peers...


65-66:

Thurmond vs Wilt in 9 regular season H2H's:

Nate: 16.1 ppg, 19.7 rpg, 1.1 apg, .382 FG% (3 known games)
Wilt: 28.6 ppg, 25.4 rpg, 4.4 apg (8 known games), .489 FG%

Wilt held an 8-1 scoring margin in their nine H2H's. He had four games of 30+ (30, 33, 38, and 45.) Nate had a high game of 30 points. Chamberlain had games in which he outscored Thurmond by margins of 33-17, 30-10, 38-15, and 45-13.

Chamberlain held a 7-2 rebounding margin in those nine games. Nate's high game was 32, while Wilt had games of 30 and 31. Wilt had rebounding margins of 30-19, 29-10, and 28-7.

Wilt outassisted Nate in Chamberlain's known eight games.

And Chamberlain had shooting games of 13-22, 17-32, and 15-22 against Thurmond. Nate shot 8-17, 6-16, and 7-22 in his three known games.



Bellamy vs Wilt in 11 regular season H2H games:

Bellamy: 25.2 ppg, 16.4 rpg, 4.0 apg, no known FG% games.
Wilt: 33.0 ppg, 19.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, and on a .565 FG%

Wilt held a 9-1-1 scoring margin over Bells. Bellamy's high games were 36, and 39 points. Chamberlain had 7 games of 30+ against Bellamy (Walter only had two against Wilt) and his high games were 35, 37, 38, and 50.

Chamberlain held a 10-1 margin in rebounding, albeit, many were close games. Amazingly, Wilt had two games of only 12 and 13 rebounds. He also had six of 20+ with a high's of 25 and 26. Bellamy's high games were 22 and 24.

Wilt held a 7-4 advantage in assist games, with highs of 10 and 12. Bellamy's high was 7.

Chamberlain had a remarkable FG% against Bellamy in that season. Overall, Wilt shot .540 against the entire NBA, and .565 against Bellamy.



Russell vs. Wilt in 9 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 9.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, 4.9 apg, and on a .301 FG%
Wilt: 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, 4.1 apg, and on a .473 FG%.

Wilt outscored Russell in all nine games. In fact, he annihilated Russell by margins of 27-6, 32-8, 30-5, 31-11, and 37-14.

Chamberlain outrebounded Russell by a 6-3 margin. Included were margins of 32-22, 30-20, 36-20, 30-10, 40-17, and 42-25.

Russell held a slight edge in apg, with a high game of 9. Wilt's high game was 7.

Russell did an outstanding job of holding Wilt's efficiency down (.473), BUT, Chamberlain did an even better job against Russell (.301.)


Russell vs Wilt in 5 EDF games:

Russell: 14.0 ppg, 26.2 rpg, 5.6 apg, and on a .424 FG%.
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, 3.0 apg, and on a .509 FG%.

Wilt held a 4-1 margin in scoring; and a 4-1 margin rebounding. Russell held a 3-2 margin in apg. Chamberlain outshot Russell from the floor in every game. In the clinching game five loss, Wilt outscored Russell, 46-18, on 19-34 shooting to Russell's 6-11, and outrebounded Russell, 34-31.

Oh, and just the season before, and at age 28...


Wilt vs. the other HOF centers:

Bellamy in 9 H2H's: 38.3 ppg, 21.7 rpg, .547 FG% (8 known games.)
Reed in 12 H2H's: 38.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, .532 FG% (8 known games.)
Russell in 11 reg H2H's: 25.4 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, .473 FG%
Nate in 3 H2H's: 26.7 ppg, 26.3 rpg, .500 FG%.

Chamberlain had a horrible 7-21 FG/FGA game against Nate, but historically, that was an aberration. He also had a 34-26 game, on 13-20 FG/FGA against him, as well. Overall, in their 3 H2H's, Wilt held a 3-0 scoring margin, and a 1-0 margin in their only known rebounding H2H.

Wilt just shelled Reed in the majority of their 12 H2H's. He outscored him 11-1, including margins of 37-22, 29-12, 46-25, 52-23, 41-8, and 58-28. He also had rebounding games of 28, 32, and 32 against Reed.

Wilt continued his plastering of Bellamy, too. He held a 7-2 scoring margin edge, including margins of 51-33, 43-25, 56-37, 40-16, and 53-20. Chamberlain also held a 6-1 edge in their known rebounding H2H's, which included margins of 29-16, and 28-10.

The Chamberlain-Russell duels were continuing to become more-and-more one-sided, as well. In their 11 regular season H2H's, Chamberlain enjoyed a 10-1 scoring edge (and Russell's lone "win" was 11-8 in a game in which Wilt left injured.) Included were margins of 24-6, 31-7, and 37-16. Wilt also outrebounded Russell by an 8-3 margin, which included margins of 32-24, 26-17, 34-17, and 43-26. And again, look at Russell's known FG%... an unfathomable .281 in the known 10 of their 11 season H2H's (and in one game Russell shot an unbelievable 0-14!)!


How about a 30 year old Wilt in '67...


ellamy vs Wilt in 9 regular season H2H's...

Bellamy: 23.2 ppg (all 9 games), 15.9 rpg (8 known games), 3.1 apg (8 known games), .449 FG% (62-138 in 7 known games)

Wilt: 22.7 ppg, 25.7 rpg, 6.3 apg, .709 FG%

In one of the few seasons in their long career battles, Bellamy managed to outscore Wilt. Still, Wilt held a 5-3-1 game-by-game margin. Bellamy had 6 games of 20+, including a high of 34. Chamberlain also had 6 games of 20+, with a high of 35.

As always, Wilt slaughtered Bellamy on the glass. Overall, Chamberlain held an 8-0 margin (1 game unknown for Bellamy.) And in some Wilt crushed Walter (margins of 28-14, 28-17, 28-17, 33-17, and 30-9.) Bellamy's high game was 20, while Wilt had games of 28, 28, 28, 30, and 33.

Bellamy had finished behind Wilt during the regular season in FG% (.683 to .521), but again, Wilt just massacred him H2H by a staggering .709 to .449 mark. Chamberlain had two games of 12-14 and 15-18 against Bells.



Thurmond vs Wilt in 6 regular season H2H's.

Nate: 13.2 ppg, 22.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, .308 FG% (3 known games)
Wilt: 20.8 ppg, 25.0 rpg, 8.5 apg, and on a .633 FG%.

Overall, Wilt a 5-0-1 margin in H2H scoring games. Nate's high game against Wilt was 21 points, while Chamberlain had three games of 20+ against Nate (23, 27, and 30 points.)

Chamberlain also held a 3-2-1 rebounding margin. Nate's high games were 26 and 29, while Wilt's high games were 26, 26, 26, and 31.

Wilt, as always, just annihilated Thurmond in H2H FG% (his career margin was .542 to .360 BTW.) In one of their 66-67 H2H's, Wilt shot 13-18. BTW, in that same game, Wilt had a QUAD double (30-26-13-12.)



Thurmond vs Wilt in their six game Finals:

Nate: 14.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 3.3 apg, and on a .343 FG%.
Wilt: 17.5 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, and on a .560 FG%.

Wilt outscored Nate, 5-1; outrebounded Nate, 5-1; outassisted Nate, 5-1; and outshot Thurmond from the floor in all six games.

In the clinching game six win, Wilt outscored Thurmond, 24-12; outrebounded Nate, 23-22; and outshot Thurmond, 8-13 to 4-13. nate did hold a 5-4 margin in assists.

BTW, Wilt also had a KNOWN QUAD double in that series (10-38-10-10.)



Russell vs Wilt in 9 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 12.2 ppg, 21.1 rpg, 4.1 apg, and on a .425 FG%.
Wilt: 20.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 6.6 apg, .549 FG%.

Overall, Wilt held a 8-1 scoring margin. Included were margins of 24-11, 26-4, and 30-10. Russell's high game was 22 points. Wilt had 4 games of 20+, with a high of 30.

Chamberlain also held a 7-2 rebounding margin. Russell's high games were 26 and 29. Meanwhile, Wilt had high games of 28, 28, and 31.

Wilt outassisted Russell by a 5-0-4 margin. Russell's high game was 5, while Wilt's high games were 8, 9, 9, and 10.

Oh, and Wilt had a high game of 13 blocks. Russell's high block game was 4.


Russell vs Wilt in their 5 EDF games:

Russell: 10.2 ppg, 23.4 rpg, 6.0 apg, .358 FG%
Wilt: 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, and on a .556 FG%.

Wilt outscored Russell 5-0; outrebounded Russell, 4-1; outassisted Russell, 3-0-2; and outshot Russell from the floor by a 5-0 margin.

Russell's high scoring game was 20 points. His high rebounding game was 29. And his high assist game was 9.

Chamberlain's high scoring games were 24 and 29. His high rebounding games were 29, 32, 36, and 41 (NBA playoff record.)

Wilt's high assist games were 9, 10, 13, and 13.

Chamberlain had THREE Triple-Double games, including a known QUAD double game (games of 24-32-13-12, 20-22-10, and 29-36-13.

In the clinching series game, Wilt outscored Russell, 29-4; outrebounded Russell, 36-21; outassisted Russell, 13-7; and outshot Russell from the floor, 10-16 to 2-5. He also had seven blocked shots.

Incidently, in their known blocks for that series, Chamberlain held a 29-8 margin.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

In Wilt's last three seasons of the decade of the 60's, he "only" averaged 24.1 ppg, 24.3 ppg, and 20.5 ppg.

However, he put up high games of 52. 53, 53, 58, 60, 66, and 68 points in those three years.

In '67, Chamberlain averaged 24.1 ppg, which was well behind Rick Barry's 35.6 ppg.

How about this comment from Barry after that season...

https://books.google.com/books?id=W8ZAnT8gd-8C&pg=PT179&lpg=PT179&dq=wilt+would+have+won+the+scoring+title+in+%2767+ if+he+had+wanted+it&source=bl&ots=NrtWVum0VP&sig=zYBunVCOiTpUNdmW7W51-6mRZpg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBWoVChMIvr3ml-LexgIVClKSCh3arADV#v=onepage&q=wilt%20would%20have%20won%20the%20scoring%20titl e%20in%20'67%20if%20he%20had%20wanted%20it&f=false



Of the scoring title, Barry said, "If [Wilt] wanted it, he could have had it."

[LAZERUSS]

He was better in '68.


But, Chamberlain hit a two straight game period, against Bellamy and Nate, in which he only put up a combined 22 points, on a horrific 6-23 shooting. Of course, any time someone even whispered that Wilt might be slipping...boom...he exploded for a 52 point game, on 22-29 shooting, with 37 rebounds. But that game was also an example of Wilt's growing "achilles heel"...as he shot a shocking 8-30 from the FT line.

Beginning with that 52 point explosion, Chamberlain went on a mini rampage, in which he averaged 33 ppg over the course of 12 straight games, which included three consecutive monster games of 68, 47, and 53 points. The 68 point game was easily the NBA high that season.

and...


Chamberlain was piling up assists at an amazing rate, (especially for a center), and in his last 12 games of the season, he had 11 "triple doubles", including an NBA record of nine in a row. Not only that, he was just terrorizing the league in every facet of the game. In 10 of those 11 triple-doubles, he scored 20+ points, including four of 30+, and perhaps the most phenomenal triple double in NBA history, when he jack-hammered the helpless Lakers with a 53 point (on 24-29 shooting), 32 rebound, and 14 assist game. And their are even unverified estimates of Wilt blocking 24 shots, and recording 11 steals in that same game. Oh, and with Oscar missing 17 games, Chamberlain did in fact lead the NBA in assists, with 702 (8.6 apg.)

Overall, Wilt averaged 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg (ran away with the rebounding title by nearly 5 per game), and shot .595 from the field (again, a runaway win), and those 8.6 apg. And he also led the league in Defensive Win Shares, at 10.73, which is the eighth highest all-time, and the highest "non-Russell" season in NBA history.

[kshutts1]

You bet I am.

Let me ask you this...

Give me the EXACT season in which the NBA became better than the previous season.
That quote was in response to the "talent pool" being nearly as good in the 60's as in the 80's and on.

I will definitely have to stop you right there. I'll defend Wilt, Oscar, Baylor, Pettit, etc, for as long as I talk basketball. But not the talent pool.

The TOP PLAYERS are not much different. I'll agree with that. They are all, mostly, on the same level.

But when we talk about the available TALENT POOL, there is 100% a larger and better pool today. And it's, in theory, expanding literally every day.

That FACT does NOT detract from the greatness of the greats from the 60's. At least it does not for anyone that's not "hating". But it is very real.

[LAZERUSS]

That quote was in response to the "talent pool" being nearly as good in the 60's as in the 80's and on.

I will definitely have to stop you right there. I'll defend Wilt, Oscar, Baylor, Pettit, etc, for as long as I talk basketball. But not the talent pool.

The TOP PLAYERS are not much different. I'll agree with that. They are all, mostly, on the same level.

But when we talk about the available TALENT POOL, there is 100% a larger and better pool today. And it's, in theory, expanding literally every day.

That FACT does NOT detract from the greatness of the greats from the 60's. At least it does not for anyone that's not "hating". But it is very real.

The thing is...average is average. Whether it is a 1,000, or 1,000,000.

And we have "bridges" to prove it, too. If the talent level was weak in Wilt's era...why didn't Kareem shatter all of Wilt's records? The reality was, he never approached Wilt's records, nor a prime Chamberlain's overwhelming domination of the SAME centers that a prime Kareem would face a few years later.

And centers in the 70's...like Cowens, Lanier, Gilmore, McAdoo, and Moses, were all playing a prime Kareem to near-draws from the mid-70's to the late 70's. And Moses simply pounded Kareem in their 40 career H2H's.

Yet an old Kareem was routinely reigning 40+ point games on Hakeem, and in the week he carpet-bombed Olajuwon with a 46 point game (in only 37 minutes), he hammered Ewing by a 40-9 margin...all while outshooting Patrick, 15-22 to 3-17.

Again...Neal Walk was an "average" NBA center in the early 70's...in a league with Lanier, Hayes, Unseld, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, McAdoo, Kareem, and Wilt (in fact, a BELOW average center), who still managed to put up a 20-12 season. Tom Boerwinkle still holds the Bulls rebounding record, of 37, and in a game in which the Bulls broke the Alcindor-led Bucks 20 game winning streak, he scored 21 points with 33 rebounds.

If today's players hold an advantage over those from previous eras, it is a small one.

[Asukal]

If today's players hold an advantage over those from previous eras, it is a small one.

No grandpa. You cherry pick stats in one game and think oh he must be very good because he dominated a young upcoming player in one game. :oldlol:

The average player today is superior to the 60's. Overall athleticism is better, better training, better coaching, and a far larger talent pool to pick players from. They had 10 teams in the 60's with mostly white folks playing, how is that even remotely close to what we have today? You yourself will admit that wilt can not average 50 ppg today. :whatever:

[LAZERUSS]

That quote was in response to the "talent pool" being nearly as good in the 60's as in the 80's and on.

I will definitely have to stop you right there. I'll defend Wilt, Oscar, Baylor, Pettit, etc, for as long as I talk basketball. But not the talent pool.

The TOP PLAYERS are not much different. I'll agree with that. They are all, mostly, on the same level.

But when we talk about the available TALENT POOL, there is 100% a larger and better pool today. And it's, in theory, expanding literally every day.

That FACT does NOT detract from the greatness of the greats from the 60's. At least it does not for anyone that's not "hating". But it is very real.

Again...with this world "globalization", where are all the 7-0 Magics? And shouldn't the current NBA be shooting FTs better than the late 50's NBA?

How come Drummond and D Jordan can't shoot? Same with Rondo and Rubio?

How can a 6-9 1/2 Cousins, with his 28" vertical, put up a 24-13 season and in only 34 mpg?

How could a 6-8 Kevin Love, who can barely dunk...run away with a rebounding title, and in only 35 mpg?

[kshutts1]

The thing is...average is average. Whether it is a 1,000, or 1,000,000.

And we have "bridges" to prove it, too. If the talent level was weak in Wilt's era...why didn't Kareem shatter all of Wilt's records?
Are you confused?
First, you say average is average, then proceed to mention mostly great players.
Second, why would Kareem shatter Wilt's records, if we're assuming the talent pool INCREASED? WTF does that prove?

The one caveat I'll bow to, in a sense, is that the average player in the league in the last 5 or so years has, in my belief, gotten worse than previously. And I attribute that solely to this league-wide emphasis on specialists. So the overall talent of these new specialists MAY be lower than the overall talent of role players from 10-15 years ago, but they fill their role better. But again, I did want to point out that one exception/caveat to our talent discussion.

[ClipperRevival]

Again...with this world "globalization", where are all the 7-0 Magics? And shouldn't the current NBA be shooting FTs better than the late 50's NBA?

How come Drummond and D Jordan can't shoot? Same with Rondo and Rubio?

How can a 6-9 1/2 Cousins, with his 28" vertical, put up a 24-13 season and in only 34 mpg?

How could a 6-8 Kevin Love, who can barely dunk...run away with a rebounding title, and in only 35 mpg?

:facepalm Do you understand what "talent pool" means? Or increased "level of competition" and how with both factors considered, we get more "parity." And I don't need you to write another novel long response.

[LAZERUSS]

No grandpa. You cherry pick stats in one game and think oh he must be very good because he dominated a young upcoming player in one game. :oldlol:

The average player today is superior to the 60's. Overall athleticism is better, better training, better coaching, and a far larger talent pool to pick players from. They had 10 teams in the 60's with mostly white folks playing, how is that even remotely close to what we have today? You yourself will admit that wilt can not average 50 ppg today. :whatever:

So what?

If a 6-9 1/2 Cousins, and his 28" vertical, can put up a 24-13 season, and in only 34 mpg...just what do you think a 7-1+ Wilt, with a 40" vertical, and a 7-8 wingspan, with sprinters speed, and a post game that Shaq couldn't come close to...would put up in today's NBA?

If a 6-7 3/4 Kevin Love, with this leaping ability...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7TnbhJr8iY

can run away with the rpg title, at 15.2 rpg, and in only 35 mpg...just what would a 7-1+ ATHLETE, with enormous strength, and easily playing 40+ mpg, average in today's NBA?

[kshutts1]

Again...with this world "globalization", where are all the 7-0 Magics? And shouldn't the current NBA be shooting FTs better than the late 50's NBA?

How come Drummond and D Jordan can't shoot? Same with Rondo and Rubio?

How can a 6-9 1/2 Cousins, with his 28" vertical, put up a 24-13 season and in only 34 mpg?

How could a 6-8 Kevin Love, who can barely dunk...run away with a rebounding title, and in only 35 mpg?
First, read my other response to you. I'll answer this post anyway.

1) 7' Magics? Talent pool is still being pulled from the human race. The race has not evolved.
2) FT shooting is a league-average thing, and the rise of specialists has lowered it to a point. But shooting is not the only skill with which we judge players.
3) You say Drummond and Jordan. I say Wilt and Russell. I'm sure I could find guard equivalents if I cared to look, but I have no problem admitting that Rubio and Rondo are embarrassing shooters. Lucky for them, shooting is not the only skill with which we judge players.
4) Height and vertical? Really? Is that why players are great?

Please stop cherry-picking instances in which players "live up" to the 60s, and instead look at the whole picture.

Again, the stars of today are, as a whole, not better than the stars of the 60s. But the talent pool from which the league draws is FACTUALLY larger, and thus the overall talent level of the league itself is logically greater.

[LAZERUSS]

:facepalm Do you understand what "talent pool" means? Or increased "level of competition" and how with both factors considered, we get more "parity." And I don't need you to write another novel long response.

Where is this parity?

Just a few years ago, in 2009, a washed up Shaq, weighing 370+ lbs, hung a 45 point game.

Again, an unathletic Cousins, playing a paltry 34 mpg, can put up a 24-13 season. How?

How does a 6-7 3/4" Love run away with a rpg title? Do you honestly think Love would have won rpg titles in the 60's?

How does a 38 year old Duncan put up an 18-11 .589 post-season? Shouldn't all these great modern athletes being completely shutting him down?

How do Ricky Rubio and Rajon Rondo make NBA rosters, when neither can shoot to save their lives?

And how come the NBA shot FTs better in 1959, than this past season?

[LAZERUSS]

First, read my other response to you. I'll answer this post anyway.

1) 7' Magics? Talent pool is still being pulled from the human race. The race has not evolved.
2) FT shooting is a league-average thing, and the rise of specialists has lowered it to a point. But shooting is not the only skill with which we judge players.
3) You say Drummond and Jordan. I say Wilt and Russell. I'm sure I could find guard equivalents if I cared to look, but I have no problem admitting that Rubio and Rondo are embarrassing shooters. Lucky for them, shooting is not the only skill with which we judge players.
4) Height and vertical? Really? Is that why players are great?

Please stop cherry-picking instances in which players "live up" to the 60s, and instead look at the whole picture.

Again, the stars of today are, as a whole, not better than the stars of the 60s. But the talent pool from which the league draws is FACTUALLY larger, and thus the overall talent level of the league itself is logically greater.

You mean THIS Wilt?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak




Carl Braun said "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70

[Asukal]

So what?

just what would a 7-1+ ATHLETE, with enormous strength, and easily playing 40+ mpg, average in today's NBA?

Nowhere near 50ppg grandpa. :rolleyes:

[La Frescobaldi]

Are you confused?
First, you say average is average, then proceed to mention mostly great players.
Second, why would Kareem shatter Wilt's records, if we're assuming the talent pool INCREASED? WTF does that prove?

The one caveat I'll bow to, in a sense, is that the average player in the league in the last 5 or so years has, in my belief, gotten worse than previously. And I attribute that solely to this league-wide emphasis on specialists. So the overall talent of these new specialists MAY be lower than the overall talent of role players from 10-15 years ago, but they fill their role better. But again, I did want to point out that one exception/caveat to our talent discussion.

Absolutely agree with all you say.... except the recent decline which I also notice is not only due to over-specialization - although, yeah that's horrific.
It's also because they aren't going to college. Not only are their bodies too young and undeveloped to compete against men, their minds aren't either. These guys are blazing simpletons and it shows clearly on the court.
You can see it plainly from all these guys that are showing up from Europe and their skills are so much sharper, their hoops knowledge is deeper. THOSE guys are playing old NBA level ball... but they don't have the hops or the speed... which is also a problem, the GMs are selecting lots of guys with extreme athleticism but low hoops skills.
But yeah talent pool much wider and deeper than ever, '70s, '80s or whenever and it's plain to see every single game.

[SouBeachTalents]

Are you including times players were bounced in the first round? If so, you should use at least a second round minimum, it's not fair to use examples when one player plays 3-4 games while another plays 20+

[ClipperRevival]

Where is this parity?

Just a few years ago, in 2009, a washed up Shaq, weighing 370+ lbs, hung a 45 point game.

Again, an unathletic Cousins, playing a paltry 34 mpg, can put up a 24-13 season. How?

How does a 6-7 3/4" Love run away with a rpg title? Do you honestly think Love would have won rpg titles in the 60's?

How does a 38 year old Duncan put up an 18-11 .589 post-season? Shouldn't all these great modern athletes being completely shutting him down?

How do Ricky Rubio and Rajon Rondo make NBA rosters, when neither can shoot to save their lives?

And how come the NBA shot FTs better in 1959, than this past season?

Where is the parity? How about the fact that no team has won more than 3 in a row or that no team has made the finals more than 4 straight years since Russell's Celts had a monopoly on the league? It just PROVES that no matter how great you are as a team, there is another great team ready to knock you off your throne once age catches up to you. It's called increased level of competition due to the increased talent pool.

You need to see the big picture buddy. So get so focused on your agenda to boost Wilt at all costs it skews your reality of the situation. The talent pool in the 50's and 60's was a joke compared to today. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

[kshutts1]

You mean THIS Wilt?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak
I like that that is your only response to my post. At least you're smart enough to not touch the rest of it.

And if Wilt was such a good shooter, why couldn't he hit his FTs?

[kshutts1]

Absolutely agree with all you say.... except the recent decline which I also notice is not only due to over-specialization - although, yeah that's horrific.
It's also because they aren't going to college. Not only are their bodies too young and undeveloped to compete against men, their minds aren't either. These guys are blazing simpletons and it shows clearly on the court.
You can see it plainly from all these guys that are showing up from Europe and their skills are so much sharper, their hoops knowledge is deeper. THOSE guys are playing old NBA level ball... but they don't have the hops or the speed... which is also a problem, the GMs are selecting lots of guys with extreme athleticism but low hoops skills.
But yeah talent pool much wider and deeper than ever, '70s, '80s or whenever and it's plain to see every single game.
Another good point, but the lack of college experience was noticeable as early as the late 90's. The specialization, which is not necessarily a bad thing, is much more recent.

[DonDadda59]

http://www.gameinformer.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Components-ImageFileViewer/CommunityServer-Discussions-Components-Files-258/0246.wall-of-text.png_2D00_610x0.png

Boiled Down...

Wilt's Center Competiton in '59-'60 (Rookie Year)
Bill Russell 6'10" 215 lbs

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lbgRW29NxfM/UwY3Hh104jI/AAAAAAAAAMM/o89-EEgGfmk/s1600/Bill+Russell+Dunk.jpg

Red Kerr 6'9" 230 lbs

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5a/87/c2/5a87c22e6ab3420c09506e60cd3290d8.jpg

Charlie Tyra 6'8" 230lbs

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Charlie_Tyra.jpeg/220px-Charlie_Tyra.jpeg

Clyde Lovellette 6'9" 234 lbs

http://cdn.sportsmemorabilia.com/sports-product-image/1097-t1324468-500.jpg

Walter Dukes 7' 220 lbs

http://www.samanacollege.org/walter/walter01-thumb.jpg

Jim Krebs 6'8" 230 lbs

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/lala/HundleyLA.jpg

Phil Jordon 6'10" 205 lbs

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/detroit/JordonDet.jpg

^These fine gentlemen were the starting Centers in the NBA during Wilt's first few seasons in the league.

When Wilt entered the league, there were only 8 teams. The NBA had only 11 players 6'11" or taller in its History (founded 1947) and Wilt was the tallest player ever at that point.

Integration in the league started happening at a faster rate during the late 60s-70s, more legitimate centers were drafted, expansion happened. Lo and behold, by 30 Wilt was no longer dropping 40-50 PPG seasons against 6'8" part time car salesmen. He was going up against guys who could challenge him physically and had skill. Slowly but surely, the 'Bush League' was getting talent (without quotas). Result... his PPG was cut in half in just 5 seasons.

[LAZERUSS]

:facepalm Do you understand what "talent pool" means? Or increased "level of competition" and how with both factors considered, we get more "parity." And I don't need you to write another novel long response.

Let me ask you this...

How did a 30 year old 5-10 200 lb Tiki Barber rush for 1860 yards, and as recently as 2005? And who would you take...a 2005 Barber, or a 1989 Bo Jackson?

How about this...a PED-enhanced 230 lb Barry Bonds longest homerun of his career traveled 490 ft. An alcoholic 190 lb Mickey Mantle was routinely hitting 500+ ft. homeruns. Some way over that.

[LAZERUSS]

I like that that is your only response to my post. At least you're smart enough to not touch the rest of it.

And if Wilt was such a good shooter, why couldn't he hit his FTs?

He was decent in college and early in his career. Hell, in his 100 point game, he hit 28-32.

[kshutts1]

Let me ask you this...

How did a 30 year old 5-10 200 lb Tiki Barber rush for 1860 yards, and as recently as 2005? And who would you take...a 2005 Barber, or a 1989 Bo Jackson?

How about this...a PED-enhanced 230 lb Barry Bonds longest homerun of his career traveled 490 ft. An alcoholic 190 lb Mickey Mantle was routinely hitting 500+ ft. homeruns. Some way over that.
No one, literally no one, is arguing that the greats of yesteryear are not great.

We are all saying that the average players have improved quite a bit.
You are saying that the greats are great.

Either get in the conversation, or stop typing.

[ClipperRevival]

Let me ask you this...

How did a 30 year old 5-10 200 lb Tiki Barber rush for 1860 yards, and as recently as 2005? And who would you take...a 2005 Barber, or a 1989 Bo Jackson?

How about this...a PED-enhanced 230 lb Barry Bonds longest homerun of his career traveled 490 ft. An alcoholic 190 lb Mickey Mantle was routinely hitting 500+ ft. homeruns. Some way over that.

Confirmed. You honestly don't get it. You are confusing elite, individual talent with the available talent pool. As I said before, greatness is greatness. You can't help when you are born. That is different from the talent pool available. Come on man, tell me you can tell the difference.

[LAZERUSS]

Boiled Down...

Wilt's Center Competiton in '59-'60 (Rookie Year)
Bill Russell 6'10" 215 lbs

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lbgRW29NxfM/UwY3Hh104jI/AAAAAAAAAMM/o89-EEgGfmk/s1600/Bill+Russell+Dunk.jpg

Red Kerr 6'9" 230 lbs

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5a/87/c2/5a87c22e6ab3420c09506e60cd3290d8.jpg

Charlie Tyra 6'8" 230lbs

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Charlie_Tyra.jpeg/220px-Charlie_Tyra.jpeg

Clyde Lovellette 6'9" 234 lbs

http://cdn.sportsmemorabilia.com/sports-product-image/1097-t1324468-500.jpg

Walter Dukes 7' 220 lbs

http://www.samanacollege.org/walter/walter01-thumb.jpg

Jim Krebs 6'8" 230 lbs

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/lala/HundleyLA.jpg

Phil Jordon 6'10" 205 lbs

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/detroit/JordonDet.jpg

^These fine gentlemen were the starting Centers in the NBA during Wilt's first few seasons in the league.

When Wilt entered the league, there were only 8 teams. The NBA had only 11 players 6'11" or taller in its History (founded 1947) and Wilt was the tallest player ever at that point.

Integration in the league started happening at a faster rate during the late 60s-70s, more legitimate centers were drafted, expansion happened. Lo and behold, by 30 Wilt was no longer dropping 40-50 PPG seasons against 6'8" part time car salesmen. He was going up against guys who could challenge him physically and had skill. Slowly but surely, the 'Bush League' was getting talent (without quotas). Result... his PPG was cut in half in just 5 seasons.

http://blogstorage.s3.amazonaws.com/upload/SportsBlogcom/2472067/0022060001434682293_filepicker.jpg

http://s.likes-media.com/img/808b7ef4c8686d7b67fa7c3fb63265ca.600x.jpg

Oh, and the 6-5 3/4" Chuck Hayes STARTED 82 games at CENTER, as recently as 2010.

[DonDadda59]

http://blogstorage.s3.amazonaws.com/upload/SportsBlogcom/2472067/0022060001434682293_filepicker.jpg

http://s.likes-media.com/img/808b7ef4c8686d7b67fa7c3fb63265ca.600x.jpg

Oh, and the 6-5 3/4" Chuck Hayes STARTED 82 games at CENTER, as recently as 2010.

What exactly are those pictures supposed to prove? A PF and a retired PG? :confusedshrug:

I showed ALL of the starting CENTERS during Wilt's first season in the NBA. It would've made sense if you posted pics of the same for say... Shaq's first season.

[LAZERUSS]

No one, literally no one, is arguing that the greats of yesteryear are not great.

We are all saying that the average players have improved quite a bit.
You are saying that the greats are great.

Either get in the conversation, or stop typing.

Ok, how come Jim Brown, who was 6-2 230 lbs, and a track star in college, could "only" average 5.2 ypc in his NFL career? Shouldn't he have rushed for 3000 yards on 15 ypc against the slow, small players of his era?

How come the 6-6 235 lb Gus Johnson, with MJ's vertical, and very soft touch up to 15+ feet, had only ONE 20 ppg season in his NBA career? Shouldn't he have been hanging 30-20 seasons every year?

How come Nolan Ryan wasn't winning 30+ games every season?

How come Kareem's career high scoring game was "only" 55 points? Shouldn't he have been pouring in 60+ point games every night in the early 60's? Yet, we know he could hang 46 point games on Hakeem, and in only 37 minutes.

[LAZERUSS]

What exactly are those pictures supposed to prove? A PF and a retired PG? :confusedshrug:

I showed ALL of the starting CENTERS during Wilt's first season in the NBA. It would've made sense if you posted pics of the same for say... Shaq's first season.

And I have blown away your "centers that Wilt faced" many times.

Chamberlain had a 20 straight game stretch of AVERAGING 48 ppg against the PEAK 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy.

Wilt was hanging 50-60 point games on the 7-0 Walter Dukes.

Chamberlain had entire seasons against Bill Russell, who was every bit as tall as D Jordan, Cousins, Drummond, and Howard...of 38.1 ppg, 39.1 ppg, and 39.7 ppg. He had FIVE 50+ point games, with a HIGH of 62.

Wilt was FAR more dominant against a PEAK 6-11 Thurmond, than a PEAK Kareem was against an aging Thurmond. He was outscoring Thurmond by margins of 33-10, 38-15, and even 45-13. A peak Kareem's high game against an aging full-time Thurmond... 34 points.

In his last two seasons, covering 11 H2H's, Wilt averaged 24 ppg on a .750 FG% against the 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier.

Wilt had an entire season, covering 12 H2H's, in which he averaged 39 ppg against the HOFer Willis Reed. He pounded Reed by margins of 46-25, 41-9, 52-23, and 58-28.

A prime Chamberlain DESTROYED his peers, quite a few of whom would be great in the 70's.

[kshutts1]

Ok, how come Jim Brown, who was 6-2 230 lbs, and a track star in college, could "only" average 5.2 ypc in his NFL career? Shouldn't he have rushed for 3000 yards on 15 ypc against the slow, small players of his era?

How come the 6-6 235 lb Gus Johnson, with MJ's vertical, and very soft touch up to 15+ feet, had only ONE 20 ppg season in his NBA career? Shouldn't he have been hanging 30-20 seasons every year?

How come Nolan Ryan wasn't winning 30+ games every season?

How come Kareem's career high scoring game was "only" 55 points? Shouldn't he have been pouring in 60+ point games every night in the early 60's? Yet, we know he could hang 46 point games on Hakeem, and in only 37 minutes.
Man, you can be a joy to read at times.

Other times, however, you just don't get it. You are looking at just the smaller picture, and just the physical attributes or abilities of athletes and assume that that's enough. I'm not one of those "he only played against small guys" posters, yet you treat me as such. Maybe it's not your fault; maybe you've been conditioned to respond to an ISH poster that way.

I look forward to the next time you educate me on a player about whom I knew next to nothing. But as for this conversation? I'm done. Have a nice night.

[LAZERUSS]

Man, you can be a joy to read at times. Other times, however, you just don't get it.

I look forward to the next time you educate me on a player about whom I knew next to nothing. But as for this conversation? I'm done. Have a nice night.

Look, you are basically claiming the NBA is much more talented today, than in previous eras (and obviously the same would apply to other team sports), but how come Kareem wasn't hanging 50+ ppg seasons against the "inferior" players of the 70's? How come a Jim Brown, at 230 lbs, and with track speed wasn't rushing for 15 ypc, and 3000 yard seasons against the smaller, slower players of his "inferior" era.

Yet these all-time greats, while putting up enormous seasons, hold very few records. How come?

[HighFlyer23]

And I have blown away your "centers that Wilt faced" many times.

Chamberlain had a 20 straight game stretch of AVERAGING 48 ppg against the PEAK 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy.

Wilt was hanging 50-60 point games on the 7-0 Walter Dukes.

Chamberlain had entire seasons against Bill Russell, who was every bit as tall as D Jordan, Cousins, Drummond, and Howard...of 38.1 ppg, 39.1 ppg, and 39.7 ppg. He had FIVE 50+ point games, with a HIGH of 62.

Wilt was FAR more dominant against a PEAK 6-11 Thurmond, than a PEAK Kareem was against an aging Thurmond. He was outscoring Thurmond by margins of 33-10, 38-15, and even 45-13. A peak Kareem's high game against an aging full-time Thurmond... 34 points.

In his last two seasons, covering 11 H2H's, Wilt averaged 24 ppg on a .750 FG% against the 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier.

Wilt had an entire season, covering 12 H2H's, in which he averaged 39 ppg against the HOFer Willis Reed. He pounded Reed by margins of 46-25, 41-9, 52-23, and 58-28.

A prime Chamberlain DESTROYED his peers, quite a few of whom would be great in the 70's.


Lol its likely over half of those guys were only in the NBA due to their height, not actual basketball ability. We know that won't cut it in today's NBA.

You think that turn around finger roll from Wilt would work in today's league? He wouldn't even be able to match up against JaVale McGee :lol

[HighFlyer23]

Look, you are basically claiming the NBA is much more talented today, than in previous eras (and obviously the same would apply to other team sports), but how come Kareem wasn't hanging 50+ ppg seasons against the "inferior" players of the 70's? How come a Jim Brown, at 230 lbs, and with track speed wasn't rushing for 15 ypc, and 3000 yard seasons against the smaller, slower players of his "inferior" era.

Yet these all-time greats, while putting up enormous seasons, hold very few records. How come?

Kwame Brown would dominate in Wilts era

He would be putting up 35/20/6 on 63%

[LAZERUSS]

Lol its likely over half of those guys were only in the NBA due to their height, not actual basketball ability. We know that won't cut it in today's NBA.

You think that turn around finger roll from Wilt would work in today's league? He wouldn't even be able to match up against JaVale McGee :lol

How do you think Hakeem would fare in today's NBA?

[HighFlyer23]

How do you think Hakeem would fare in today's NBA?
What are Wilts stats when adjusting for pace?

[Marchesk]

What are Wilts stats when adjusting for pace?

Higher FG%, same assists number.

32/15/4 with 4 blocks on 60%

[Asukal]

Higher FG%, same assists number.

32/15/4 with 4 blocks on 60%

What about the playoffs and finals? :oldlol:

[Marchesk]

What about the playoffs and finals? :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrqXDEPu6v8

"And when I say that, I really believe it. I'm not just up here blowing smoke".

I like Pat Riley's smirk.

[TheMan]

Let me ask you this...

How did a 30 year old 5-10 200 lb Tiki Barber rush for 1860 yards, and as recently as 2005? And who would you take...a 2005 Barber, or a 1989 Bo Jackson?

How about this...a PED-enhanced 230 lb Barry Bonds longest homerun of his career traveled 490 ft. An alcoholic 190 lb Mickey Mantle was routinely hitting 500+ ft. homeruns. Some way over that.
I hate how you cherry pick rare instances and try to make it out as that's the norm to make your stupid points. This is your MO and everyone can see through it. :rolleyes:

[HighFlyer23]

Higher FG%, same assists number.

32/15/4 with 4 blocks on 60%

How did you come to these numbers?

You certainly didn't use his career averages per game.

[Marchesk]

How did you come to these numbers?

You certainly didn't use his career averages per game.

Just a guess, because how exactly do you adjust Wilt's 61 stats for today's league? He won't get 40 FGA a game, and he won't play 48 minutes, but he will be more efficient at the slower pace. There's also less rebounds to be had, obviously.

I just multiplied by .6 and then added two points for higher FG%, but it's a guess. What team is he on, how does the coach want to use him, is Wilt volume scoring or in a role similar to what he was on the 76ers, how does the 3pt shot factor in?

If we put Wilt on a crappy team then he's probably maxing out his stats for this era since he'll be the best player by far and it will help sell tickets. But on a better team, then he might be kicking it out more to open shooters and what not.

[Stringer Bell]

Kwame Brown would dominate in Wilts era

He would be putting up 35/20/6 on 63%

Nah, he still wouldn't be able to catch a pass in the 1960s.

Roberto Duran's "Hands of Stone" nickname should apply to Kwame.

[Psileas]

Kwame Brown would dominate in Wilts era

He would be putting up 35/20/6 on 63%

Rashad Vaughn would dominate in Jordan's era

He would be putting up 30/10/8 on 56%

[riseagainst]

has he ever led the league in finals PPG though?

[CavaliersFTW]

has he ever led the league in finals PPG though?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1964-nba-finals-warriors-vs-celtics.html

:hammerhead:

[pudman13]

Two things missing from this discussion:

--Because there were fewer teams in the 60s, the talent was more concentrated. I think it's fair to say there's more athleticism now, and more of certain skills (i.e. ball-handling), as well as much more sophisticated defenses, training, coaching, etc, but the center position, especially towards the end of the 60s, was much more loaded then than it is now or ever was, and the talent is watered down now in other ways (including the fact that the NBA has so many players who left college early.)

--The game has completely changed so that the role of a center is nothing like it ever was before. We honestly have no idea how good some of the modern centers might have been if they played under, say, 70s rules. Right now they're barely used because 3 points are more than 2.

[pudman13]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1964-nba-finals-warriors-vs-celtics.html

:hammerhead:

You know what stands out here to me? Sam Jones: 556 FG%.

By the way, I see lots of commentary about Ricky Rubio's FG% in this thread. He's the modern equivalent of Guy Rodgers or KC Jones...or Bob Cousy.