Magic Johnson.....

[orange_chicken]

Is Magic Johnson that good or was the team he played with just too stacked? Also, when the Bulls beated Magic and his Lakers in the finals is it because he was past his prime, didn't have enough help, or got his offense exposed?

[SouBeachTalents]

beated

[LAZERUSS]

Is Magic Johnson that good or was the team he played with just too stacked? Also, when the Bulls beated Magic and his Lakers in the finals is it because he was past his prime, didn't have enough help, or got his offense exposed?

Here you go...


Now let's actually put in a PEAK Magic, and not some way-past-his-prime Magic that carried a shell of what had been a dynasty in the 80's, past a peak Blazer team in the WCF's, and then up against a peak Jordan (and with Pippen being the one to slow him down), with his stacked roster that wiped out Magic's rapidly declining, and injury-plagued roster in the '91 Finals.

How about Magic at HIS PEAK, in 86-87.

First, MJ vs. Magic...

MJ: 37.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, .429 FG%, .875 FT%, .474 TS%
Magic: 29.0 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 12.5 apg, .500 FG%, .933 FT%, .563 TS%.
Oh, and 2-0 W-L


MJ vs. Boston in regular season, and Magic vs. Boston in regular season:

MJ: 29.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, .428 FG%, .820 FT%
Magic: 35.0 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 9.0 rpg, .556 FG%, .864 FT%


How about MJ vs, Boston, and Magic vs. Boston in that same post-season:

MJ: 35.7 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 6.0 apg, .417 FG%, .817 FT%, .529 TS%
Magic: 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, .541 FG%, .960 FT%, .590 TS%

Oh, and MJ's Bulls vs. Boston in the playoffs... 0-3
Magic's Lakers vs. Boston in the Finals... 4-2

BTW, MJ in his '87 season averaged a career high 37.1 ppg. And yet a PEAK Magic was FAR greater.


Another point.

Magic's Laker played teams like the Sixers from the first half of the 80's, the Bad Boys from the last half of the 80's, and the Celtics for the entire decade of the 80's. He took his team to EIGHT Finals, and won FIVE rings in that decade, and beat the peak Sixers twice, the peak Bad Boys once, and the peak Celtics, twice.

Compare that with MJ's 90's run.

He finally beat a washed-up Pistons team, and then a washed-up Lakers team in the '91 playoffs and Finals.

He beat a 57-25 Blazers team in the '92 Finals, with the same roster that somehow Magic beat the year before when they went 63-19.

He beat a defenseless Suns team in the '93 Finals.

Oh, and how good was his rosters in the 90's? His '94 team, with the legendary Pete Myers replacing him, went 55-27, which was deceptive, since Pippen missed 10 games, as well as other teammates missing games. They could easily have won 60+ games. And it was too bad, too, since they did not have HCA against a 56-26 Knicks team that they took to a close and controversial seven game series...the same Knicks team that lost a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals (and outscored them BTW.)

Then, they basically replaced Grant with Rodman, and Paxson with Kerr, and won three more titles.

MJ's '96 Bulls beat a Sonics team with Payton and Kemp, and not much else, in a series in which MJ averaged 27 ppg on a .415 FG%.

Then MJ's Bulls beat the Stockton-Malone Jazz in two straight Finals, in series in which MJ shot .455 and .427.


Think about this...

Was there ANY team that MJ faced in the 90's that was even remotely close to the Sixers, Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers in the 80's?

I can safely make this claim...MJ's 90's Bulls don't go 6-8 in the 80's. Hell, they might not have won a ring in that decade.

[Lebron23]

Best Laker player of all time. Lakers never missed the playoffs when he was playing for them.

[Round Mound]

Is Magic Johnson that good or was the team he played with just too stacked? Also, when the Bulls beated Magic and his Lakers in the finals is it because he was past his prime, didn't have enough help, or got his offense exposed?

He Was Great and His Teamates Where Great. Both Elements. By 1991 Lakers Where Not Favorites To Go To The Finals But Magic Took Them There. By 91 Scottie Pippen Was The Best 2nd Option In the NBA and He Did Tire Off Magic a Bit (Thereby His Low Shooting %) But Lets Remember That Worthy and Scott Where Both Injured. Infact I Believe They Didnt Play The Whole Series. Magic Had Great Teamates But He Himself Was Great. Ofcourse That Bulls Team Would Have Never One Against A 1987 and Prior Laker Teams With Jabbar.

[Sportal]

Haha, did you watch that documentary called "The Announcement" recently too?

From what I could gather on the questions I asked a couple of days ago...

The Lakers were really fazing out, they were the 8th seed that year, and the year following Magic's retirement from basketball activities, the Lakers went like 39-43 and still made the 8th seed in the Playoffs. But the year in which Magic made the Finals to play Jordan, they actually beat the #1 seed Blazers as the 8th seed, like, sounded like a big upset.

One of my questions were "would have Magic possibly kept Jordan from 3-peating?". The answer would have been no, not with the team the Lakers had during those times, unless they re-tooled.

[kennethgriffin]

magic wasnt the most polished. but he was a great basketball player


average athleticism
average jumpshot
poor defense


but


great passing
great post ups
great rebounding
great leader
great clutch
great winner




so the positives outweighed the negatives

the lakers dont win anything without him. we all saw how they were in the 70's with kareem and other good players.... no leadership... no floor general



cant have a team full of allstars and not have anyone to control them

[TheBigVeto]

He was a great top 5 PG but overrated.

[HighFlyer23]

Top 10, bottom half

Ultimately overrated because fans and the media loved him

[plowking]

lol Magic has one game at center, makes a famous hook shot from the post and people act like this was some huge part of Magic's game.

About 5% of this forum watched Magic play live, or have taken the time to watch his games available on the net. This myth that he used the post up as some kind of strength needs to stop. He had a post game, pretending it was legendary levels needs to stop though.

[WorldWarriors]

Is Magic Johnson that good or was the team he played with just too stacked? Also, when the Bulls beated Magic and his Lakers in the finals is it because he was past his prime, didn't have enough help, or got his offense exposed? Magic is one of my favorite basketball players of all time. The Lakers squad was also well put together. But Magic is a player that kind of gets lost in the conversation when we discuss the all time greats. He was a fearless floor general. He totally ran it and put the "show" in showtime. By the time the Bulls made it to the finals vs. the Lakers, Magic had already been in the league a decade and had 5 rings. Definitely on the downside of his career.

[Sarcastic]

He was a great top 5 PG but overrated.


Top 5? Try #1 undisputed.

[nzahir]

Top 5 all time.
Mj, KAJ, Bird/Magic(i think I lean towards bird) and then shaq.
Most triple doubles in the finals, 3 fmvps, he retired at 31(before coming back) and put up 19.5 and 12.5 with 7 boards that last year.
Even as he aged he could always have his post game b/c he was 6'9 and could always pass.

[Young X]

lol Magic has one game at center, makes a famous hook shot from the post and people act like this was some huge part of Magic's game.

About 5% of this forum watched Magic play live, or have taken the time to watch his games available on the net. This myth that he used the post up as some kind of strength needs to stop. He had a post game, pretending it was legendary levels needs to stop though.In his later years it was a big part of his game.

How else do you think he was so effective as he got older? He wasn't quick, didn't have any spectacular dribble moves in the halfcourt (Hardaway, Thomas) and wasn't really a big PNR player (Stockton).

You think he just ran the fast break all day? No, he also used his size against smaller guards in the post and either scored on them easily or forced teams to double him.

[SHAQisGOAT]

He was great while also playing for great teams, with great teammates... Let's leave it at that.

He was still great in 1991 but the team was falling apart due to injuries, players retiring... Couldn't really compete ALL the way, when you see what happened down the line.

Magic's clearly the GOAT PG, and AT THE VERY LEAST really close to the top5.

[Soundwave]

If the Pistons could beat the Lakers, the Bulls would have eventually too as they became better than the Pistons. It was just dependant on Pippen and Grant's games maturing.

[Psileas]

If the Pistons could beat the Lakers, the Bulls would have eventually too as they became better than the Pistons. It was just dependant on Pippen and Grant's games maturing.

That's just a conclusion with no real connection, since the '91 Pistons were clearly inferior to their '88-'90 versions and certainly the '88 Lakers were not the best Showtime team either (3rd at best), nor were obviously the injured '89 ones.

[ClipperRevival]

Magic was the one. Before Magic came to the Lakers, KAJ didn't win nothing. Magic was the one who put it all together and took the Lakers to another level.

He made the finals 9 times in 11 seasons and every team he faced in the finals were all-time great teams (76ers, Celtics, Pistons, Bulls). One of the greatest winners ever. There is absolutely no shame going 5/9 in the finals when you consider the opponent.

[kshutts1]

Was Magic more like Lebron or Curry, in how he contributed to winning?

Lebron -- Magic MADE the team great

Curry -- Magic was the perfect piece to take a very good team and make them special

[ClipperRevival]

Was Magic more like Lebron or Curry, in how he contributed to winning?

Lebron -- Magic MADE the team great

Curry -- Magic was the perfect piece to take a very good team and make them special

Magic was unique in that he could get everyone involved or take over offensively. He could've averaged a lot more points if he wanted too. Late in his career, he was giving you 22+ PPG while also dishing out 10+ apg. His 3 point shot was improved and so was his post game. Magic really worked on his game and by the time he was in his late 20's, he was a complete player (outside of his D due to his lack of athleticism). He could post you up, take it to the rack or hit the outside shot. Magic did whatever the team needed to win.

So I would say he was more like LeBron.

[SHAQisGOAT]

What's this talk about Magic's supposed lack of athleticism? :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:
Magic was a good athlete, a very mobile and coordinated 6'8 player COMBINED with being an unreal passer, a great ballhandler and a master at leading an offense.

He played PG not only due to his skill but also because he had the athleticism to do so... The lateral quickness, the speed and the agility.

Dude was great at going coast-to-coast, he had the strength in the post (combined with skill and size), great at maneuvering his body to connect on layups (was a great finisher) or to make crazy passes, big-time hand-eye coordination, one of the most coordinated 6'8 players ever, major arm-strength...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-dTw2gi6w0yw/U-VOb9xUHXI/AAAAAAAA9L8/PHDT_LSrMd8/w506-h750/Magic%2BJohnson%2BDunk%2BShot%2BScience.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/saRuEdpM4hlOo/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-16-2015/rUFKFq.gif

https://38.media.tumblr.com/9121206e553fb0d764525b749526a6ce/tumblr_n1owznPoqy1s3gys4o1_400.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9b0v5cnkT1rexifho1_500.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/658202edbd5dc6722d848fdad087d4e3/tumblr_ms67ieTS5S1qcmnsoo1_400.gif


His defense was never what you'd call good but above average in his best days, while he could be put on various positions.

As far as his shooting... He was always a pretty good FT shooter who peaked as a great one; he was not a good shooter at 1st but developed into a player who could knock down numerous mid-range J's if given the space (shot over 50% from mid-range in the '84 Finals, for instance); he even got to be good from the 3pt-line, shooting 38% on 3.5 attempts per game, in '90.

[3ball]

So I would say he was more like LeBron.


People say Lebron is more like Magic - this is true if you were considering comparing Lebron to MJ... But Lebron and Magic play quite differently... Not only did Magic have an elite post game, but Magic averaged twice the assists and didn't dominate the ball from SF position - he dominated the ball from the PG spot... Big difference.

Lebron dominates the ball from the SF position - this turns a normally high-assisted frontcourt position (SF) into the lowest-assisted position (PG)... When teammates can't get assists by passing to their SF, the playmaking/assisting capacity of the team is reduced.

Not only does Lebron's ball-dominant, point guard play from the SF position reduce the teams' assisting capacity, but it steps on the toes of the actual PG and SG, by stripping them of ballhandling duties.. Lebron's PG play from the SF spot puts everyone out of position.

Otoh, Magic dominated the ball from the natural PG position, so his SF was still a high-assisted player, and Magic didn't have to step on the actual PG's toes because Magic WAS the actual point guard - everyone got to play their natural position.

[kshutts1]

People say Lebron is more like Magic - this is true if you were considering comparing Lebron to MJ... But Lebron and Magic play quite differently... Not only did Magic have an elite post game, but Magic averaged twice the assists and didn't dominate the ball from SF position - he dominated the ball from the PG spot... Big difference.

Lebron dominates the ball from the SF position - this turns a normally high-assisted frontcourt position (SF) into the lowest-assisted position (PG)... When teammates can't get assists by passing to their SF, the playmaking/assisting capacity of the team is reduced.

Not only does Lebron's ball-dominant, point guard play from the SF position reduce the teams' assisting capacity, but it steps on the toes of the actual PG and SG, by stripping them of ballhandling duties.. Lebron's PG play from the SF spot puts everyone out of position.

Otoh, Magic dominated the ball from the natural PG position, so his SF was still a high-assisted player, and Magic didn't have to step on the actual PG's toes because Magic WAS the actual point guard - everyone got to play their natural position.
If you read my post, to which he was responding, you would see that he and I didn't mean in playing style, but rather in greatness fitting with a team, or something like that.

[ClipperRevival]

What's this talk about Magic's supposed lack of athleticism? :confusedshrug: :rolleyes:
Magic was a good athlete, a very mobile and coordinated 6'8 player COMBINED with being an unreal passer, a great ballhandler and a master at leading an offense.

He played PG not only due to his skill but also because he had the athleticism to do so... The lateral quickness, the speed and the agility.

Dude was great at going coast-to-coast, he had the strength in the post (combined with skill and size), great at maneuvering his body to connect on layups (was a great finisher) or to make crazy passes, big-time hand-eye coordination, one of the most coordinated 6'8 players ever, major arm-strength...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-dTw2gi6w0yw/U-VOb9xUHXI/AAAAAAAA9L8/PHDT_LSrMd8/w506-h750/Magic%2BJohnson%2BDunk%2BShot%2BScience.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/saRuEdpM4hlOo/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-16-2015/rUFKFq.gif

https://38.media.tumblr.com/9121206e553fb0d764525b749526a6ce/tumblr_n1owznPoqy1s3gys4o1_400.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9b0v5cnkT1rexifho1_500.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/658202edbd5dc6722d848fdad087d4e3/tumblr_ms67ieTS5S1qcmnsoo1_400.gif


His defense was never what you'd call good but above average in his best days, while he could be put on various positions.

As far as his shooting... He was always a pretty good FT shooter who peaked as a great one; he was not a good shooter at 1st but developed into a player who could knock down numerous mid-range J's if given the space (shot over 50% from mid-range in the '84 Finals, for instance); he even got to be good from the 3pt-line, shooting 38% on 3.5 attempts per game, in '90.


Magic's athleticism (lightness of feet, ability to slide laterally, explosion, quickness) were all average or below average. Let's not confuse skills(passing, ball handling) with natural, athleticism.

[ClipperRevival]

People say Lebron is more like Magic - this is true if you were considering comparing Lebron to MJ... But Lebron and Magic play quite differently... Not only did Magic have an elite post game, but Magic averaged twice the assists and didn't dominate the ball from SF position - he dominated the ball from the PG spot... Big difference.

Lebron dominates the ball from the SF position - this turns a normally high-assisted frontcourt position (SF) into the lowest-assisted position (PG)... When teammates can't get assists by passing to their SF, the playmaking/assisting capacity of the team is reduced.

Not only does Lebron's ball-dominant, point guard play from the SF position reduce the teams' assisting capacity, but it steps on the toes of the actual PG and SG, by stripping them of ballhandling duties.. Lebron's PG play from the SF spot puts everyone out of position.

Otoh, Magic dominated the ball from the natural PG position, so his SF was still a high-assisted player, and Magic didn't have to step on the actual PG's toes because Magic WAS the actual point guard - everyone got to play their natural position.

Positions mean nothing. When Bron brings the ball up court and initiates the offense, he is playing the PG position. I see a lot of similarities between the two. Both about 6'8" and freakishly big for a "point guard" and both able to do what is needed for the team. Sometimes that means getting others involved and sometimes that means taking over offensively.

And I know this will kill you but the one thing Bron excelled over MJ is that he could do more with less. He had the perfect game to take a bunch of scrubs farther than MJ, given his larger size/power and ability to impact the game in other ways (better rebounder, higher assists). But I will admit that MJ was far greater at making a good team into an unbeatable team and I think that's more important in the grand scheme of things.

[ClipperRevival]

Was Magic more like Lebron or Curry, in how he contributed to winning?

Lebron -- Magic MADE the team great

Curry -- Magic was the perfect piece to take a very good team and make them special

I think you are selling Curry short. The guy is great, not just a "piece." The game has never seen a guy quite like him. His ability to get off a 3 in a split second while dribbling is unreal. Most great shooters are great when they can shoot it in rhythm while spotting up. That's much easier to do. Spot up, catch and shoot. But you add in Curry's ability to be mobile AND get off a deadly, accurate 3 from anywhere on the floor within 25 feet and that adds a whole new dimension for his team and how defenses guard him.

He can also break down set defenders and take it to the rack or set guys up. So he's not only a deadly, mobile artillery weapon from deep but a guy who can create his own shot against set defenders. The game has never seen a guy quite like him.

[Hey Yo]

Finals Records: Turnovers - Series

Most Turnovers-Individual

4-game series
24 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles, 1983

5-game series
25 - Isiah Thomas, Detroit, 1990

6-game series
30 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles, 1980

7-game series
31 - Magic Johnson, Los Angeles, 1984

[kshutts1]

I think you are selling Curry short. The guy is great, not just a "piece." The game has never seen a guy quite like him. His ability to get off a 3 in a split second while dribbling is unreal. Most great shooters are great when they can shoot it in rhythm while spotting up. That's much easier to do. Spot up, catch and shoot. But you add in Curry's ability to be mobile AND get off a deadly, accurate 3 from anywhere on the floor within 25 feet and that adds a whole new dimension for his team and how defenses guard him.

He can also break down set defenders and take it to the rack or set guys up. So he's not only a deadly, mobile artillery weapon from deep but a guy who can create his own shot against set defenders. The game has never seen a guy quite like him.
I don't think I am. I was looking for a comparison. It's not very arguable that Curry is the perfect player to lead that team and that city.

I was not going by ability, but rather a perfect fit making the roster/team better than it otherwise would. Paul and Westbrook are, in my mind, superior players to Curry, but neither would make GSW a better team than Curry has.

[WorldWarriors]

I don't think I am. I was looking for a comparison. It's not very arguable that Curry is the perfect player to lead that team and that city.

I was not going by ability, but rather a perfect fit making the roster/team better than it otherwise would. Paul and Westbrook are, in my mind, superior players to Curry, but neither would make GSW a better team than Curry has.

Well the team was built around Curry so it stands to reason he's a perfect fit.

[WorldWarriors]

Magic was such a fierce competitor as well. He loved the game and sad his career had such an abrupt ending. At least he got one last hurrah with Team U.S.A.

[inclinerator]

he's what lebron will be in a few years when that athleticism fades

[3ball]

he's what lebron will be in a few years when that athleticism fades
People say Lebron is more like Magic.. But Lebron and Magic play quite differently... Not only did Magic have an elite post game, but Magic averaged twice the assists and didn't dominate the ball from SF position - he dominated the ball from the PG spot... Big difference.

Lebron dominates the ball from the SF position - this turns a normally high-assisted frontcourt position (SF) into the lowest-assisted position (PG)... When teammates can't get assists by passing to their SF, the playmaking/assisting capacity of the team is reduced.

Not only does Lebron's point guard play from the SF position reduce the teams' assisting capacity, but it steps on the toes of the actual PG and SG, by stripping them of ballhandling duties.. Lebron's PG play from the SF spot puts everyone out of position.

Otoh, Magic played PG from the natural PG position, so the Lakers SF was still a high-assisted player, and Magic didn't have to step on the actual PG's toes because Magic WAS the actual point guard - everyone got to play their natural position.

[WorldWarriors]

https://youtu.be/FoT4490iZsI

Team USA practice Jordan v. Magic. LOL this was hilarious and fun. These guys were so competitive.

[3ball]

.
All-time APG Leaders - Regular season

1. Magic Johnson*....... 11.19
2. John Stockton*.......... 10.51
3. Chris Paul.............. 9.94
4. Oscar Robertson.......* 9.51
5. Isiah Thomas*.......... 9.26
6. Kevin Johnson.......... 9.13
7. Jason Kidd............... 8.69
8. John Wall... ............8.67
9. Deron Williams.......... 8.49
10. Steve Nash............. 8.49
11. Rajon Rondo............. 8.33
12. Norm Nixon............. 8.32
13. Tim Hardaway.......... 8.18
14. Kevin Porter....... ......8.06
15. Mark Jackson........... 7.97
16. Guy Rodgers*........... 7.75
17. Stephon Marbury.......... 7.65
18. Muggsy Bogues.......... 7.57
19. Bob Cousy* ...............7.53
20. Johnny Moore............ 7.43
21. Tiny Archibald*............ 7.39
22. Rod Strickland........... 7.30
23. Baron Davis.............. 7.22
24. Russell Westbrook....... 7.14
25. Micheal Ray............. 7.01


As the list shows, the top 25 apg leaders are ALL POINT GUARDS.. Nonetheless, many people think Magic wouldn't play point guard today - what a joke - virtually every single player in history that averaged over 7 apg played point guard, let alone a 11-12 apg player like Magic (Magic was #1 in playoffs at 12.4 apg.. Stockton was far behind at #2 with 10.3).

Defense isn't a factor, because the spacing and hands-off defense has made penetration automatic in today's game.. Defenders are no longer expected to "stop penetration" like in previous eras - a guy like Ramon Sessions expects to get in the lane anytime he wants.

The story is never "well, Sessions had a hard time getting in the lane tonight"... That NEVER happens in today's game.. Today's defenses essentially ALLOW penetration, and then provides help defense in the paint.. Magic's defense would as good as Sessions, or Austin Rivers, or any other stiff in today's game.
.

[3ball]

Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


the one thing Bron excelled over MJ is that he could do more with less.



MJ took a lottery team to ECF in 1989, where they lost to the champion Bad Boys in 6 games.

So you're wrong about Lebron doing more with bad teams - we both know the 2015 Hawks and 2007 Pistons are nowhere near the 1989 champion Bad Boys.

Also, the stats tell the story (shown above) - in 1989, MJ led a worse team (47-win, 6th seed) against better competition (better records and higher ranked defenses), while putting up better stats.

Btw, Lebron has never taken a lottery team to even 1 championship... Whereas, MJ took a lottery team and built them into a 3-peat dynasty.. So you're wrong - MJ did far more with less.. It's not even close.

[Rolando]

Magic Johnson is not talked about enough on this forum.

Screw athleticism.

[4 Inches]

Magic played in the 96 season as PF/C .

[IllegalD]

He's great but a bit overrated.

Basketball is played in both sides of the court.

While Magic wasn't a complete zero on defense (2x NBA steals leader), he's not exactly what you would call an elite lockdown defensive player.

Also, much like Kareem, Magic never won a title without another GOAT-level/Top 10 teammate. (Magic won all 5 of his rings with Kareem. Kareem won 1 with Big O and 5 with Magic)

Of course no one on these boards ever brings up those little factoids in order to discredit Magic's "GOATness" because they're double-standard, hypocritical weirdos. :applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Greatest Laker, Top 5 player IMO

[Hey Yo]

He's great but a bit overrated.

Basketball is played in both sides of the court.

While Magic wasn't a complete zero on defense (2x NBA steals leader), he's not exactly what you would call an elite lockdown defensive player.

Also, much like Kareem, Magic never won a title without another GOAT-level/Top 10 teammate. (Magic won all 5 of his rings with Kareem. Kareem won 1 with Big O and 5 with Magic)

Of course no one on these boards ever brings up those little factoids in order to discredit Magic's "GOATness" because they're double-standard, hypocritical weirdos. :applause:
Plus the division was a joke and had a cakewalk to the Finals every year in the 80's

[Pointguard]

Plus the division was a joke and had a cakewalk to the Finals every year in the 80's
He beat more great teams than anybody else in the modern era so that doesn't hold any water.

[Hey Yo]

He beat more great teams than anybody else in the modern era so that doesn't hold any water.
Who were those great teams the Lakers beat en-route to the Finals?

[Pointguard]

Who were those great teams the Lakers beat en-route to the Finals?
I'm telling you if you beat the hardest teams around why complain about the softer ones? A fighter that beats the best fighters with the most skills has truly earned his stripes. Could be different if he kept losing in the finals but he won five times.

[Hey Yo]

I'm telling you if you beat the hardest teams around why complain about the softer ones? A fighter that beats the best fighters with the most skills has truly earned his stripes. Could be different if he kept losing in the finals but he won five times.
Because apparently if a player beats softer teams or even 60 win teams before the Finals, you are getting a cakewalk.

The same could be applied for Magic (who had much better teammates and coaching) minus him beating a 60 win team.

[Pointguard]

Because apparently if a player beats softer teams or even 60 win teams before the Finals, you are getting a cakewalk.

The same could be applied for Magic (who had much better teammates and coaching) minus him beating a 60 win team.

Excuses are for teams that lose, not the other way around.

Bird was the winningest player out East during the decade and Magic beat more 60+ teams in the playoffs than Bird did. Magic beat more super teams than anybody in the modern era. That eliminates the cakewalk talk. It was the age of the best dynasties. The hardest to win back to backs in. You can't change that.

[And1AllDay]

Best Laker player of all time. Lakers never missed the playoffs when he was playing for them.

I agree, I have Magic #2 all time behind Jordan

LAZ spittin some truth, too. Magic is a beast

[And1AllDay]

He was great while also playing for great teams, with great teammates... Let's leave it at that.

He was still great in 1991 but the team was falling apart due to injuries, players retiring... Couldn't really compete ALL the way, when you see what happened down the line.

Magic's clearly the GOAT PG, and AT THE VERY LEAST really close to the top5.

I can't put 4 guys ahead of Magic, no way.

Jordan is obviously on the list, but I can't put 4 other names ahead of Magic.

[LAZERUSS]

Because apparently if a player beats softer teams or even 60 win teams before the Finals, you are getting a cakewalk.

The same could be applied for Magic (who had much better teammates and coaching) minus him beating a 60 win team.

Magic beat considerably more 50+ teams than Bird did, as well as more 60+ teams. In fact, Magic did better against the Eastern powerhouses, like the Sixers and Pistons, than Bird did.

As for "teammates"...Bird played alongside as many as FOUR other HOFers.

BTW, Magic's career W-L% is .740. In his entire career withOUT Kareem... .742.

And in their 10 years in the league together, in the games in which one of them did not play...Kareem won .604 of them...Magic... .750. Oh, and Kareem never won a playoff game in those years in which Magic did not play...while Magic not only won his game without Kareem...he dominated it...hanging a 42-15-7 game in the clinching road win over the Sixers in his rookie season.

[IllegalD]

Whatam tryina' say ma nigas is that there aint no way Magic's Johnson is better than one Mr. Kobe Da Beans Bryant.

Gotta' play elite defense and win without another Top 10/GOAT candidate to make that claim.

[Pointguard]

Whatam tryina' say ma nigas is that there aint no way Magic's Johnson is better than one Mr. Kobe Da Beans Bryant.

Gotta' play elite defense and win without another Top 10/GOAT candidate to make that claim.
Sorry, but being the best at controlling the game nearly makes up for the defense. Being the best team player surpasses it.

[Hey Yo]

Excuses are for teams that lose, not the other way around.

Bird was the winningest player out East during the decade and Magic beat more 60+ teams in the playoffs than Bird did. Magic beat more super teams than anybody in the modern era. That eliminates the cakewalk talk. It was the age of the best dynasties. The hardest to win back to backs in. You can't change that.
He played in 9 Finals and only had to beat 13 50+ win teams to get there.

So I'll ask again, who were all these great teams that Magic and the Lakers had to beat TO GET TO THE FINALS??

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He played in 9 Finals and only had to beat 13 50+ win teams to get there.

So I'll ask again, who were all these great teams that Magic and the Lakers had to beat TO GET TO THE FINALS??

Since you're a LeBron fan you should know ALL about the 50 win teams, or lack there of that he's faced. Do you hold him to those same standards? I mean, his competition out East is worse than Magic's and arguably the worst in history tbh.

[choppermagic]

He played in 9 Finals and only had to beat 13 50+ win teams to get there.

So I'll ask again, who were all these great teams that Magic and the Lakers had to beat TO GET TO THE FINALS??

Wow, some people here are so misinformed about the past. The Celtics of the 80s and Bad Boys are two of the most powerful basketball teams ever assembled and to ever play. Add in the Lakers and you had 3 HOF teams battling it out. It was great.

Magic was awesome. Yes the Lakers were also great but combined it make the Showtime lakers perhaps the best team in history or at least a top GOAT team contender.

Magic was the engine running one of the most explosive offenses ever seen. He got his teammates to elevate their games and extended Kareems career as well. His love for the game and attitude also infected the entire city and team and brought a winning attitude, much more so than any star out there today. He was also doing things no one else had done before on the court too.

#1 PG in history and in many people's eyes, GOAT too or top 3 at least.

[Hey Yo]

Since you're a LeBron fan you should know ALL about the 50 win teams, or lack there of that he's faced. Do you hold him to those same standards? I mean, his competition out East is worse than Magic's and arguably the worst in history tbh.
Worse than the "no defense" 80's West?? I don't think so. Show me where LeBron faced a worse combined record of 118-128 to get to the Finals

Everyone makes a big deal about LeBron's teams lack of beating 50+ win teams, but no mention of Magic's cakewalk he had for a decade to get to the Finals.

[Replay32]

Greatest Point Guard of All Time. Tremendous impact on the basketball court. A winner. He was Showtime. An absolute beast.

[Hey Yo]

Wow, some people here are so misinformed about the past. The Celtics of the 80s and Bad Boys are two of the most powerful basketball teams ever assembled and to ever play. Add in the Lakers and you had 3 HOF teams battling it out. It was great.

Magic was awesome. Yes the Lakers were also great but combined it make the Showtime lakers perhaps the best team in history or at least a top GOAT team contender.

Magic was the engine running one of the most explosive offenses ever seen. He got his teammates to elevate their games and extended Kareems career as well. His love for the game and attitude also infected the entire city and team and brought a winning attitude, much more so than any star out there today. He was also doing things no one else had done before on the court too.

#1 PG in history and in many people's eyes, GOAT too or top 3 at least.
That's all nice and whatnot, but still doesn't answer the question about these so-called great teams "his stacked teams" had to face in order TO GET TO THE FINALS!

[Droid101]

He played in 9 Finals and only had to beat 13 50+ win teams to get there.

So I'll ask again, who were all these great teams that Magic and the Lakers had to beat TO GET TO THE FINALS??
That's about on pace for how many 50 teams LeBron would beat if he actually ever made it to 9 finals.

[Hey Yo]

That's about on pace for how many 50 teams LeBron would beat if he actually ever made it to 9 finals.
No shit.....so I guess that means LeBron's 50+ amount won't be brought any more from Showtime stans.

[mehyaM24]

magic and lebron dominated regardless of the competition. low iq thread.

[Droid101]

No shit.....so I guess that means LeBron's 50+ amount won't be brought any more from Showtime stans.
Until he gets to 13, yes, it will. LeBron is shit just like you.

[Showtime80']

I've posted this so many times but here we go:

From 1980 to 1991 (Magic's career) the West had a 47% winning rate versus the East

From 2003 to 2015 (LeBron's career) the East has had a 42% winning rate versus the East

Not even close in favor of Magic for being in the tougher conference while has Lebron has had the "offensively inept" worst conference EVER East to feast on for his entire career.

The 80's West mediocrity gets VASTLY OVERRATED, it really only had two bad years in 1985 and 1987 and that was mostly due to injury. Not to mention the fact that the NBA switched perennial 80's powerhouse the Milwaukee Bucks from the West to the East in 1981, leave them in the West and their winning percentage goes up to 48 or 49%!

LeBron's East is FAR inferior to Magic's Western conference!

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I've posted this so many times but here we go:

From 1980 to 1991 (Magic's career) the West had a 47% winning rate versus the East

From 2003 to 2015 (LeBron's career) the East has had a 42% winning rate versus the East

Not even close in favor of Magic for being in the tougher conference while has Lebron has had the "offensively inept" worst conference EVER East to feast on for his entire career.

The 80's West mediocrity gets VASTLY OVERRATED, it really only had two bad years in 1985 and 1987 and that was mostly due to injury. Not to mention the fact that the NBA switched perennial 80's powerhouse the Milwaukee Bucks from the West to the East in 1981, leave them in the West and their winning percentage goes up to 48 or 49%!

LeBron's East is FAR inferior to Magic's Western conference!

Great post. I mean, just look at the teams Magic faced...

Stockton, Eaton and Malone's Jazz
Clyde's Blazers
Hakeem's Rockets
Dantley/Harper/Aguirre/Blackman and the Mavs
KJ's Suns

All of these teams were good-to-great. Squads loaded with talent who took the Lakers to the brink at one point or another...some even beat them in a 7 game series.

[ClipperRevival]

He played in 9 Finals and only had to beat 13 50+ win teams to get there.

So I'll ask again, who were all these great teams that Magic and the Lakers had to beat TO GET TO THE FINALS??

There is no doubt the East had more dominant teams in the 80's but that doesn't change the fact that he had to face these teams in the finals. His Lakers played the 76ers three times (beating them twice), Celtics three times (beating them twice), Pistons two times (beating them once), and Bulls once (lost). Every single one of these teams are considered all time great teams. He made the finals 9 years in his 12 years (before HIV) and went 5/9 finals against 4 of the best teams ever. The was guy a winner.

[eeeeeebro]

watching magic got me started enjoying watching basketball when i was a kid

[KevinNYC]

Magic's athleticism (lightness of feet, ability to slide laterally, explosion, quickness) were all average or below average. Let's not confuse skills(passing, ball handling) with natural, athleticism.
And let's not confuse athleticism with the very small subset that you mention and forget stamina, balance, coordination, agility, strength and all the other aspects of athleticism that you dismiss.

Look at this poor clown, he obviously lacks natural athleticism and has to practice each of these moves 100 times a night.
http://media.giphy.com/media/bVPj51prJzVx6/giphy.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/an6gxUB2wyrni/giphy.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/hEGzDDvz6uwBW/giphy.gif

[KendrickPerkins]

I think you are selling Curry short. The guy is great, not just a "piece." The game has never seen a guy quite like him. His ability to get off a 3 in a split second while dribbling is unreal. Most great shooters are great when they can shoot it in rhythm while spotting up. That's much easier to do. Spot up, catch and shoot. But you add in Curry's ability to be mobile AND get off a deadly, accurate 3 from anywhere on the floor within 25 feet and that adds a whole new dimension for his team and how defenses guard him.

He can also break down set defenders and take it to the rack or set guys up. So he's not only a deadly, mobile artillery weapon from deep but a guy who can create his own shot against set defenders. The game has never seen a guy quite like him.
I'm ****ing tired of reading this horseshit.

STFU!

[LAZERUSS]

There is no doubt the East had more dominant teams in the 80's but that doesn't change the fact that he had to face these teams in the finals. His Lakers played the 76ers three times (beating them twice), Celtics three times (beating them twice), Pistons two times (beating them once), and Bulls once (lost). Every single one of these teams are considered all time great teams. He made the finals 9 years in his 12 years (before HIV) and went 5/9 finals against 4 of the best teams ever. The was guy a winner.

This. Magic did better against the best teams in the East, than what the best teams in the east did against each other.

[superteamtheory]

Great post. I mean, just look at the teams Magic faced...

Stockton, Eaton and Malone's Jazz
Clyde's Blazers
Hakeem's Rockets
Dantley/Harper/Aguirre/Blackman and the Mavs
KJ's Suns

All of these teams were good-to-great. Squads loaded with talent who took the Lakers to the brink at one point or another...some even beat them in a 7 game series.

Magic's teams were loaded too? :confusedshrug:
(The one team on there that kind of impresses me is Stockton & Malone. Hakeem's Rockets had some strong years in 80's but didn't get it together really until they won in mid 90's. Drexler by his lonesome wasn't beating nobody..)

That's the main thing people don't seem to understand about playing in the East... It's not just that everybody else isn't as good (which is overstated/overrated but nevermind), it's that your team isn't either.. so in terms of evaluating individual players, it changes nothing.

[mehyaM24]

^^^^^^

nobody has ever said magic's teams weren't great. the point is, magic also faced great teams on his way to the finals. drexler had terry porter, duckworth, kersey (rip) & cliff robinson - they won 63 games the year magic's lakers eliminated them.

hakeem had ralph sampson - the original twin towers. kj had hornacek and majerle, who i joke at because jordan faced an older version of him, but they were still all-star caliber players.

the west was loaded back in the 80's - the comparison to today's east is laughable.

[Young X]

The '87 Lakers did face incredibly weak competition though. They went up against...

37-45 Nuggets
39-43 Sonics
42-40 Warriors

Nuggets and Sonics both had a negative SRS (!).

Then they faced a really good but at that point depleted Celtics team in the finals.

Their competition in the next season was really good though, they got taken to 3 straight game 7's.

[houston]

Magic's teams were loaded too? :confusedshrug:
(The one team on there that kind of impresses me is Stockton & Malone. Hakeem's Rockets had some strong years in 80's but didn't get it together really until they won in mid 90's. Drexler by his lonesome wasn't beating nobody..)

That's the main thing people don't seem to understand about playing in the East... It's not just that everybody else isn't as good (which is overstated/overrated but nevermind), it's that your team isn't either.. so in terms of evaluating individual players, it changes nothing.


exactly man Magic's Lakers went to the Finals 8 times out of 80's. Dude team was just superior to everything else.

[3ball]

Drexler by his lonesome wasn't beating nobody..)


fyi - Drexler's Blazers were well-known to be very stacked.

They had 5 all-star players:

Clyde Drexler
Terry Porter
Buck Williams
Kevin Duckworth
Cliff Robinson

And they had Jerome Kersey.. Btw, Buck Williams was 4-time all-defensive team as well, including the three straight seasons from 1990-1992.

[dreamwarrior]

Magic was gifted Pat Riley for nearly his entire career.

[ArbitraryWater]

beated

:roll: :roll:

[JellyBean]

Is Magic Johnson that good or was the team he played with just too stacked? Also, when the Bulls beated Magic and his Lakers in the finals is it because he was past his prime, didn't have enough help, or got his offense exposed?

Magic was that good! He was the "X" factor. When healthy, Magic was the spark plug for the Lakers. His unselfishness and basketball IQ was the reason, to me, why the Lakers stayed at such a high level during the 80s. The Lakers, much like any great team, had players who understood their roles within the team. When the Lakers lost to the Bulls in 91, it was just time. Magic was slowing down. The Lakers just weren't the same Lakers that ruled the 80s. "Showtime" wasn't Showtime anymore. It was just time for the passing of the torch.