Remember when Lebron missed the playoffs despite having an All-Star Center?

[3ball]

The year was 2005 - Zydrunas Illgauskas had just made his 2nd All-Star game and was considered one of the best post presences in the entire league (17/9 with 2.1 blk).

But despite having an all-star on his team, Lebron missed the playoffs in the weakest conference of all time.

For Lebron to finally make the playoffs in 2006, he needed the Cavs to add the NBA's steals leader and 1st Team All-NBA defender Larry Hughes, as well as Donyell Marshall.

Btw, in 2005, Lebron averaged 27 ppg on 56% TS under the new hands-off defensive rules and paint-camping ban, which was a considerable increase over the previous season under the old rules.

[Yoda]

The year was 2005 - Zydrunas Illgauskas had just made his 2nd All-Star game and was considered one of the best post presences in the entire league (17/9 with 2.1 blk).

But despite having an all-star on his team, Lebron missed the playoffs in the weakest conference of all time.

For Lebron to finally make the playoffs in 2006, he needed the Cavs to add the NBA's steals leader and 1st Team All-NBA defender Larry Hughes, as well as Donyell Marshall.

Btw, in 2005, Lebron averaged 27 ppg on 56% TS under the new hands-off defensive rules and paint-camping ban, which was a considerable increase over the previous season under the old rules.

Try too hard you do.

[STATUTORY]

we all know that Lebron ball sabotages big men on his team, Big z, shaq, chris bosh, kevin love etc.

[KendrickPerkins]

King f*cking James has completely mindf*cked the shit out of the poor little fella.

:lol :lol :lol

[3ball]

King f*cking James has completely mindf*cked the shit out of the poor little fella.

:lol :lol :lol
This is what you like to believe.

But in reality, repeating over and over how much better MJ was, is the funnest form of stanning and being a fan

Otoh, you guys coming on here and getting mad and making anger posts is where the mind****ing comes in.. As in me ****ing you

[Kvnzhangyay]

This is what you like to believe.

But in reality, repeating over and over how much better MJ was, is the funnest form of stanning and being a fan

Otoh, you guys coming on here and getting mad and making anger posts is where the mind****ing comes in.. As in me ****ing you

You lose every time you debate... :facepalm

It's just your confirmation bias prevents you from realizing it

[3ball]

You lose every time you debate... :facepalm

It's just your confirmation bias prevents you from realizing it
This is what you like to believe.

But in reality, creatively demonstrating the significant magnitude of MJ's superiority is the funnest, most intelligent and best form of stanning and being a fan

Otoh, you guys coming on here and making irrelevant posts and getting mad means you lose..

Whereas I stick to the only thing I care about (showing how much better MJ was), while you guys come on here and comment about me, or say how mad you are, or some other BS.

[Rocketswin2013]

The OP has actually changed my mind. After seeing post after post of his on this forum, I'm now pro-abortion.

[bigkingsfan]

Remember when MJ made the playoffs with 30 wins

[ArbitraryWater]

This is what you like to believe.

But in reality, creatively demonstrating the significant magnitude of MJ's superiority is the funnest, most intelligent and best form of stanning and being a fan

Otoh, you guys coming on here and making irrelevant posts and getting mad means you lose..

Whereas I stick to the only thing I care about (showing how much better MJ was), while you guys come on here and comment about me, or say how mad you are, or some other BS.

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/hMLhVKT_zpsactwh5oc.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/MaleRuler/media/GIFs/hMLhVKT_zpsactwh5oc.gif.html)




















































http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/pitbull-o_zpsacvk20yn.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/MaleRuler/media/GIFs/pitbull-o_zpsacvk20yn.gif.html)

[3ball]

The OP has actually changed my mind. After seeing post after post of his on this forum, I'm now pro-abortion.
No need for such extremes.

No need to lose your shit about Lebron missing the playoffs despite playing with a 17/9 all-star center who blocked 2.1 shots per game.

Of course, knowledgeable and experienced basketball minds will correctly eliminate him from Top 20 consideration based on this - I don't think another top 20 player ever missed the playoffs while having an all-star teammate.. I could be wrong on that..

But it just seems so horrible to miss the playoffs while having an all-star 17/9/2 big man... Really, really bad

[Rose'sACL]

http://i.imgur.com/CUDmLOa.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/pll2weN.jpg

[Rocketswin2013]

No need for such extremes.

No need to lose your shit about Lebron missing the playoffs despite playing with a 17/9 all-star center who blocked 2.1 shots per game.

Of course, knowledgeable and experienced basketball minds will correctly eliminate him from Top 20 consideration based on this - I don't think another top 20 player ever missed the playoffs while having an all-star teammate.. I could be wrong on that..

But it just seems so horrible to miss the playoffs while having an all-star 17/9/2 big man... Really, really bad
What you just typed was more extreme than what I did tbh .


BTW Jordan had a losing record in his second year and was outplayed by Moncrief in the first round.

[3ball]

charts showing Bulls made playoffs in 1986 while winning 30 games


Statistical anomaly... They happen.. The Bulls had the 8th best record in literally the toughest conference of all time - that's all that matters.

Btw, if we were talking about any other era - like say the 90's - I'd just say 90's eastern conference > today's eastern conference.... but that doesn't do the 80's justice.

The 1980's eastern conference is widely known as the toughest conference of all time.

[nzahir]

Worst poster on ISH :facepalm
A 20 year old lebron james carried them to a 42-40 record on 27 7.5 and 7 on 47% fg.
Outside of big z(who couldnt play much defense on the outside) his 2nd option was jeff mcinnis and drew gooden lmfao.
You always bring up some stupid shit but dont acknowledge that the bulls made the playoffs with 30 wins or that mj was 1-9 before pippen.
Seriously im considering getting you IP banned b/c your posts have gotten stale.

[mehyaM24]

had the cavs been playing in the 80s east, they would've made the playoffs.

food for thought: those 80's bulls teams went 30-42 & 40-42, way below .500, yet still made the posteason.

[aj1987]

http://i.imgur.com/CUDmLOa.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/pll2weN.jpg
Watch OP avoid this post like he avoids women.

[Mr. Jabbar]

we all know that Lebron ball sabotages big men on his team, Big z, shaq, chris bosh, kevin love etc.

wow. the collection of big men lequit has have the luxury to play with..

[Cleverness]

Remember well all-star center Zydrunas Ilgauskas missed the playoffs despite having an arguably top 10 goat player?

[Smoke117]

had the cavs been playing in the 80s east, they would've made the playoffs.

food for thought: those 80's bulls teams went 30-42 & 40-42, way below .500, yet still made the posteason.

http://media.giphy.com/media/nqRJTIwsBftG8/giphy.gif

[aj1987]

wow. the collection of big men lequit has have the luxury to play with..
Shaw, Dwight, Gasol, Grant, Malone, and Bynum.

[BBallZen83]

It's official OP, you are to Michael Jordan, what Kenneth Griffin is to Kobe Bryant.

[nzahir]

Shaq, Dwight, Gasol, Grant, Malone, and Bynum.
:applause:
Lets watch Jabbar avoid this(as usual) and lets watch 3ball avoid everything used against him(as usual).
Honestly i can just get them both ip banned if i wanted to waste some time and then theyll never be back here unless they want to go somewhere else and waste their own time just to post on here
Also odom....WOW

[3ball]

Jordan had a losing record in his second year


It's not considered bad to have a below-500 team when you play in the toughest conference of all time with one of the worst supporting casts of all time.

But the reason YOU think it's bad is because you are erroneously equating the tough 80's Eastern Conference to today's weak conference - this is something a 3rd grader would do (not be able to discern obvious differences).

And MJ didn't just play better competition - he had a worse supporting cast - he never had an all-star center that averaged 17/9 with 2.1 blocks (Zydrunas).. Or a teammate who was the NBA steals leader and 1st team all-nba defender (Hughes).

MJ didn't have a supporting cast anywhere NEAR this good AND he played far better comp.





and was outplayed by Moncrief in the first round.


MJ averaged 29/6/9 on 58% true shooting AS A ROOKIE against the reigning back-to-back DPOY.

As usual, that's GOAT - that's the GOAT performance for a rookie in his first playoff appearance, especially against a great team and the DPOY.

MJ was goat at every stage of his career - as a rookie, all the way to being the best 40-year old ever (averaging 20 ppg at 40 years old at the most athletic position - SG/SF - he basically set every record for 40-year olds).
.

[nzahir]

AS USUAL 3ball and Jabbar both avoid my posts, so Im correct I assume

[3ball]

Worst poster on ISH :facepalm

Seriously im considering getting you IP banned b/c your posts have gotten stale.


No need to get mad.. I've merely pointed out how a 17/9 center who blocks 2.1 shots per game wasn't enough help for Lebron to make the playoffs in a weak conference..

He needed management to add the NBA steals leader and 1st team all-nba defender Larry Hughes.. Only then could Lebron make the playoffs.. That's horrible by any standard AND SIMPLY DOESN'T COMPARE TO MJ.

MJ had jack SHIT for supporting help in the toughest conference of all time, yet he never missed the playoffs.

It's just more clear-cut evidence of MJ's superiority.. Heck, if you gave MJ an all-star center AND a 1st team All-NBA defender so early in his career, he probably wins more than 6 rings once management finishes rounding out the team.
.

[nzahir]

No need to get mad.. I've merely pointed out how a 17/9 center who blocks 2.1 shots per game wasn't enough help for Lebron to make the playoffs in a weak conference..

He needed management to add the NBA steals leader and 1st team all-nba defender Larry Hughes.. Only then could Lebron make the playoffs.. That's horrible by any standard AND SIMPLY DOESN'T COMPARE TO MJ.

MJ had jack SHIT for supporting help in the toughest conference of all time, yet he never missed the playoffs.

It's just more clear-cut evidence of MJ's superiority.. Heck, if you gave MJ an all-star center AND a 1st team All-NBA defender so early in his career, he probably wins more than 6 rings once management finishes rounding out the team.
.
You didnt reply to my entire post as USUAL. So your response was a 1-9

[HurricaneKid]

It's not considered bad to have a below-500 team when you play in the toughest conference of all time with one of the worst supporting casts of all time.

But the reason YOU think it's bad is because you are erroneously equating the tough 80's Eastern Conference to today's weak conference - this is something a 3rd grader would do (not be able to discern obvious differences).

And MJ didn't just play better competition - he had a worse supporting cast - he never had an all-star center that averaged 17/9 with 2.1 blocks (Zydrunas).. Or a teammate who was the NBA steals leader and 1st team all-nba defender (Hughes).

MJ didn't have a supporting cast anywhere NEAR this good AND he played far better comp.


MJ averaged 29/6/9 on 58% true shooting AS A ROOKIE against the reigning back-to-back DPOY.

As usual, that's GOAT - that's the GOAT performance for a rookie in his first playoff appearance, especially against a great team and the DPOY.

MJ was goat at every stage of his career - as a rookie, all the way to being the best 40-year old ever (averaging 20 ppg at 40 years old at the most athletic position - SG/SF - he basically set every record for 40-year olds).
.

And its not considered the toughest conference of all time when there are only 5 teams with .500 records.

MJ was 24 when he got his first playoff series win. Saying 19 yr old LeBron wasn't prime MJ... well it doesn't need to be said and is offensively stupid.

And saying MJs supporting cast isn't nearly as good as Larry Hughes and Z is so far over the stupid line its amazing you actually expect people to take you seriously.

[nzahir]

And its not considered the toughest conference of all time when there are only 5 teams with .500 records.

MJ was 24 when he got his first playoff series win. Saying 19 yr old LeBron wasn't prime MJ... well it doesn't need to be said and is offensively stupid.

And saying MJs supporting cast isn't nearly as good as Larry Hughes and Z is so far over the stupid line its amazing you actually expect people to take you seriously.
This guy is beyond retarded, I actually feel bad for anyone associated with him.

[jbryan1984]

The Bullets were still around during LeBron's era?

[GimmeThat]

remember when the whole world was jealous about Lebron's learning curve?

or was that when he himself finally realized that All-Star counts can be over-rated but the Cavs organization never did.

or was it when Dan Gilbert got really excited about Byron Scott, because he himself is the chosen one and he hadn't made a wrong signing in order to keep Lebron there.

or was it when the strategies during the finals become nothing but scribbles on a paper that had no meaning.

but surely, it must have been when we may had been better off given all that money and resources to Bill Simmons and let him run the franchise. Because that's how they were going to win a championship, keep Lebron, and never had written that angry letter.

[3ball]

And its not considered the toughest conference of all time when there are only 5 teams with .500 records.


There were only 10 teams in the entire conference back then, compared to 15 per conference today...

2 championship-level teams in 10-team conference (Pistons, Celtics) is a MUCH tougher conference than 2 championship-level teams in a 15-team conference like today.. Can you understand this or are you too dumb?





And saying MJs supporting cast isn't nearly as good as Larry Hughes and Z is so far over the stupid line its amazing you actually expect people to take you seriously.


MJ's 80's supporting casts were nowhere near Lebron's 2000's Cavs.. He never had an all-star center or the steals leader and first-team all-nba defender.

You don't realize that MJ's 80's teams were considered the most 1-man teams of all time.. Your post shows how little you know about hoops back then - you just think MJ always had a championship team.. But his early teams were some of the worst supporting casts ever - again, he never had an all-star center or all-nba defensive teammates.

This is common knowledge.. There's a reason he had to average 33/8/8 on 54% and it's not because he had an all-star center getting 17/9/2 or 1st team all-nba defender on his team.. Otoh, Lebron never needed to put up these numbers because he had an all-star center to throw the ball to.
.

[aj1987]

http://i.imgur.com/CUDmLOa.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/pll2weN.jpg


Watch OP avoid this post like he avoids women.
3ball cherry picks his arguments worse than Loozzerus.

[Hey Yo]

And its not considered the toughest conference of all time when there are only 5 teams with .500 records.

MJ was 24 when he got his first playoff series win. Saying 19 yr old LeBron wasn't prime MJ... well it doesn't need to be said and is offensively stupid.

And saying MJs supporting cast isn't nearly as good as Larry Hughes and Z is so far over the stupid line its amazing you actually expect people to take you seriously.
Needing 3 lottery pick teammates in 2yrs (Sellers, Grant and Pippen) to get that win.

While James was 22yrs old leading his scrub team to the Finals.

:confusedshrug:

[ShawkFactory]

Remember when 3ball was raped by a confused lesbian?

[3ball]

3ball cherry picks his arguments worse than Loozzerus.
There were only 10 teams in the entire conference back then, compared to 15 per conference today...

When a conference has 2 championship-level teams in 10-team conference (Pistons, Celtics), that is a MUCH tougher conference than 2 championship-level teams in a 15-team conference like today..

Can you understand this or are you too dumb?

And when a conference as 5 good teams in a 10-team conference, that is much tougher than a 15-team conference having 5 good teams... Again, can you understand this or are you too dumb?

[aj1987]

There were only 10 teams in the entire conference back then, compared to 15 per conference today...

When a conference has 2 championship-level teams in 10-team conference (Pistons, Celtics), that is a MUCH tougher conference than 2 championship-level teams in a 15-team conference like today..

Can you understand this or are you too dumb?
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Please stop posting, dude. Go get yourself checked. If you live in NY/Chi/LA, I have friends who are shrinks, who'll probably give you a huge discount.

[Hey Yo]

Larry Hughes got paid, broke his finger and his game proceeded to go down hill till his retirement.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Shaw, Dwight, Gasol, Grant, Malone, and Bynum.

:roll: all those are scrubs

the only worthy one is shaq! and u failed to mention :no:

[mehyaM24]

had the cavs been playing in the 80s east, they would've made the playoffs.

food for thought: those 80's bulls teams went 30-42 & 40-42, way below .500, yet still made the posteason.

:confusedshrug:

[Smoke117]

Larry Hughes got paid, broke his finger and his game proceeded to go down hill till his retirement.

Larry Hughes is probably the best example of being a product of the system and he still only had one good season which he missed 21 games in. I dunno why people always bring him up as some good teammate Lebron had...it's a reach by any standard.

[3ball]

A 20 year old lebron james carried them to a 42-40 record on 27 7.5 and 7 on 47% fg.


Only 42-40?... Despite having an all-star center that gets 17/9 with 2.1 blocks?

In the weakest conference of all time?.. How does that compare to MJ getting the exact same record, WITHOUT any all-stars in a tougher conference?





Outside of big z(who couldnt play much defense on the outside)


Zydrunas averaged 2.1 blocks per game.

Before he declined around 2008-2009, Z was known as a good shot-blocker (obviously) and a very good 1-on-1 post defender.. He played Shaq as well as anyone.. His good defense on Shaq was mentioned all the time.





his 2nd option was jeff mcinnis and drew gooden lmfao.


WTF?

Lebron's 2nd option was all-star Zydrunas Illgauskas, remember?... The all-star center that averaged 17/9 with 2.1 blocks?.. That's the entire point of the thread - where do you get off lying and saying his 2nd option was someone else?

As for MJ, he never had an all-star center as his 2nd option or anything CLOSE to that early in his career.. It's common knowledge that MJ's early Bulls teams were the most 1-man team in history.. People forget this because his run at the top lasted so long.





the bulls made the playoffs with 30 wins


Statistical anomaly - they happen.. The Bulls still had the 8th best record in the toughest conference of all time - that's all that matters.

One thing to remember - there were only 10 teams in the conference... A 10-team conference with 2 championship level teams (Pistons, Celtics) is much tougher than a 15 team conference with 2 championship level teams.

The Bulls had to play the Celtics and Pistons 6 times each every season, compared to 3 times per season today.





or that mj was 1-9 before pippen.


Anytime you say 1-9 without Pippen, you are saying the 1986 and 1987 Celtics = Gilbert Arenas Wizards (who Lebron played in the first round for 3 straight years).

By repeating something false over and over (that Arenas' Wizards = Bird's Celtics) that makes you a liar or dumb, or both.

Also, even after Pippen became an all-star, every single Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the GOAT scorer (while still having equal assists as Lebron) - this proves MJ had the least help of all time - no other team required this of their star (only MJ was required to be the GOAT scorer and get Lebron-level assists).

People like to say that Lebron gets 2-3 more defensive rebounds per game - a couple extra defensive rebounds doesn't compare to MJ scoring 10 ppg more in the Finals or 6 ppg more in the playoffs.
.

[Trollsmasher]

194-198

MJ couldn't even get above the 8th spot with 24 ppg, 60% TS Orlando Woolridge as a second option

[Droid101]

Larry Hughes is probably the best example of being a product of the system
lol 12 year old detected.

Hughes was pegged to be the next big defender/3 and d guy before he joined with LeBron. Then his stats/career suddenly went to shit. Where have we seen that before?

http://www.rantsports.com/nba/files/2014/08/chris-bosh.jpg

[aj1987]

lol 12 year old detected.

Hughes was pegged to be the next big defender/3 and d guy before he joined with LeBron. Then his stats/career suddenly went to shit. Where have we seen that before?

http://www.rantsports.com/nba/files/2014/08/chris-bosh.jpg
We've seen that somewhere else as well. Multiple-time DPOY and legit superstar turned into a joke. Multiple time MVP winner and All-Star turned into a scrub.

http://i.imgur.com/ylED4R4.jpg
Oh, and if Bosh has any chance of making the HOF, it's because of LeBron.

[3ball]

(Dwight Howard was) multiple-time DPOY and legit superstar turned into a joke.


Dwight Howard had a major injury - everyone knows he hasn't been the same player since, on the lakers OR houston.. It's like saying Nash hurt Amare's game after his microfracture surgery.. It's just dumb and people see through it.

But your post reveals the kind of poster you are - you'll say anything to prop up Lebron, even if it's false and a pure lie.





Steve Nash was Multiple time MVP winner and All-Star turned into a scrub.


Nash joined the Lakers at 38 years old...

Before he played his first game as a Laker, I stated on twoplustwo that his age had turned him into nothing more than a floor-spreader (which was spot-on).. So you can imagine how dumb I think it is to say Kobe turned him into a "scrub".

Btw, this is what Joe Johnson is now - don't think for a nanosecond that he'll be the all-star, shot-creating player he once was.. He's not.. He's done.. He's a floor-spreader now (albiet, pretty clutch one that can hit big shots).





Oh, and if Bosh has any chance of making the HOF, it's because of LeBron.


Wow, you're way off on this one.. You might be right if Lebron had stayed in Miami and established a long tenure of championships with Bosh... But Lebron's stay in Miami will be perceived as a "stint" where Bosh played like shit and underperformed.

Otoh, Bosh was a 20/10 player before sacrificing his prime for Lebron-ball - 20/10 players make the HOF regardless of how much they win.

However, if Bosh HADN'T sacrificed his 20/10 years for Lebron-ball, he wouldn't be perceived as an underperformer - and with his 20/10 stats, he'd be a shoe-in for HOF, because players with stats that good always make HOF.

[Smoke117]

Dwight Howard had a major injury - everyone knows he hasn't been the same player since, on the lakers OR houston.. It's like saying Nash hurt Amare's game after his microfracture surgery.. It's just dumb and people see through it.

But your post reveals the kind of poster you are - you'll say anything to prop up Lebron, even if it's false and a pure lie.



Nash joined the Lakers at 38 years old...

Before he played his first game as a Laker, I stated on twoplustwo that his age had turned him into nothing more than a floor-spreader (which was spot-on).. So you can imagine how dumb I think it is to say Kobe turned him into a "scrub".

Btw, this is what Joe Johnson is now - don't think for a nanosecond that he'll be the all-star, shot-creating player he once was.. He's not.. He's done.. He's a floor-spreader now (albiet, pretty clutch one that can hit big shots).



Wow, you're way off on this one.. You might be right if Lebron had stayed in Miami and established a long tenure of championships with Bosh... But Lebron's stay in Miami will be perceived as a "stint" where Bosh played like shit and underperformed.

Otoh, Bosh was a 20/10 player before sacrificing his prime for Lebron-ball - 20/10 players make the HOF regardless of how much they win.

However, if Bosh HADN'T sacrificed his 20/10 years for Lebron-ball, he wouldn't be perceived as an underperformer - and with his 20/10 stats, he'd be a shoe-in for HOF, because players with stats that good always make HOF.

Remember when Scottie had to carry MJ over the Knicks in 93? Me too.

[3ball]

Remember when Scottie had to carry MJ over the Knicks in 93? Me too.
Oh damn... you got me..

I remember when Scottie carried MJ against arguably the greatest defense of all time, and turned the series around in the crucial game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A

[VIP2000]

Yes, the same "All-Star" center that lead the Cavs to a 17-65 record...which lead to LeBron James being drafted in the first place.

[Kobe_6/8]

Lmao it was his 2nd season, and he was 20 years old. LeBron living rent-free.

[nzahir]

:roll: all those are scrubs

the only worthy one is shaq! and u failed to mention :no:
LMFAO this is why laker fans are the most hated fans of ANY sport.
So disrespectful to pau(without him la wouldnt win 2 rings and kobe probably wouldve left). Dwight was a multiple time dpoy, horace grant was the 3rd piece to the bulls 3 peat, malone is number 2 in most points all time, bynum was the best big at one time or 2nd best big with dwight

[Kvnzhangyay]

Yes, the same "All-Star" center that lead the Cavs to a 17-65 record...which lead to LeBron James being drafted in the first place.

this

[3ball]

this
What do you mean "this"?

That doesn't refute whatsoever that Lebron missed the playoffs despite having an all-star center that produced 17/9 with 2.1 blocks.

That's simply not top 10 all-time... Not even top 20 tbh.

[Lodi Dodi]

:facepalm
People who want to mention a 30-52 record actually expose themselves for their lack of knowledge.

Jordan broke his foot that season and only played 18 games. In the games that he did play Bulls were 9-9 (while playing heavily reduced minutes).

When he wasn't playing they were 21-43.
:lol

[Lebron23]

Lebron living rent free inside 3balls Head. You stupid, annoying Jordan D1ckrider. I doubt that you are even an MJ Fan. Your propaganda is making other posters hate him

[Kvnzhangyay]

What do you mean "this"?

That doesn't refute whatsoever that Lebron missed the playoffs despite having an all-star center that produced 17/9 with 2.1 blocks.

That's simply not top 10 all-time... Not even top 20 tbh.

The fact that the "all star center" could not even result in a decent amount of wins sure sheds light on how delusional you are to expect easily making that playoffs with the same all star center

And I don't need to refute a fact that lebron missed the playoffs :facepalm Its just you are trying to make fallacious claims on the reason for such

[KendrickPerkins]

Lebron living rent free inside 3balls Head. You stupid, annoying Jordan D1ckrider. I doubt that you are even an MJ Fan. Your propaganda is making other posters hate him
:roll:

GET HIS ASS.

[KendrickPerkins]

"I was always a big MJ fan... until that virgin '3ball' came along" - ISH

[Rose'sACL]

:facepalm
People who want to mention a 30-52 record actually expose themselves for their lack of knowledge.

Jordan broke his foot that season and only played 18 games. In the games that he did play Bulls were 9-9 (while playing heavily reduced minutes).

When he wasn't playing they were 21-43.
:lol
you're an idiot. OP was talking about how easy it was to make playoffs in 2004-05 season in the east when it was easier to make playoffs in 85,86,87.

Jordan's foot wasn't broken the next season. Explain that.

[3ball]

:lol:

[3ball]

The fact that the "all star center" could not even result in a decent amount of wins sure sheds light on how delusional you are to expect easily making that playoffs with the same all star center


Wow.. You're really underrating how many 1-all-star teams have shitty records.

Melo is an "all star forward" and he couldn't lead the Knicks to a decent numer of wins.. But put him alongside Lebron and there should be no excuse for Lebron missing the playoffs.

Remember, Zydrunas was a dominant low-post scorer in his prime and a great shot blocker and 1-on-1 post defender - he was known as one of the very best defenders Shaq ever had.. Shaq only averaged 17/8 on 52% against Zydrunas, far below his career averages of 24/11 on 58%:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=ilgauzy01

Zydrunas averaged 1.6 blocks for his career, with a career Drtg is 103 and 0.9 defensive box score +/-.. Even in his worst year of 17 wins, he got 2.1 defensive wins shares... No reason for Lebron to miss the playoffs with this kind of presence.





I don't need to refute a fact that lebron missed the playoffs Its just you are trying to make fallacious claims on the reason for him missing the playoffs



I'm not making any claims on WHY he missed the playoffs - the OP makes a statement of fact, that Lebron missed the playoffs despite having a dominant low post presence.

Honestly, by not giving Zydrunas his props, you're revealing you were late to the party to follow Lebron - you probably didn't watch Lebron much as a rookie and 2nd year player.. You probably first started watching him after he made the finals in 2007 by averaging 25 ppg on 43% against the old, ben wallace-less detroit.. By which time Zydrunas he begun to decline - he'd already fought through a career of injuries by that point that actually ended other players' careers.
.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Wow.. You're really underrating how many 1-all-star teams have shitty records.

Melo is an "all star forward" and he couldn't lead the Knicks to a decent numer of wins.. But put him alongside Lebron and there should be no excuse for Lebron missing the playoffs.

Remember, Zydrunas was a dominant low-post scorer in his prime and a great shot blocker and 1-on-1 post defender - he was known as one of the very best defenders Shaq ever had.. Shaq only averaged 17/8 on 52% against Zydrunas, far below his career averages of 24/11 on 58%:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=ilgauzy01

Zydrunas averaged 1.6 blocks for his career, with a career Drtg is 103 and 0.9 defensive box score +/-.. Even in his worst year of 17 wins, he got 2.1 defensive wins shares... No reason for Lebron to miss the playoffs with this kind of presence.




I'm not making any claims on WHY he missed the playoffs - the OP makes a statement of fact, that Lebron missed the playoffs despite having a dominant low post presence.

Honestly, by not giving Zydrunas his props, you're revealing you were late to the party to follow Lebron - you probably didn't watch Lebron much as a rookie and 2nd year player.. You probably first started watching him after he made the finals in 2007 by averaging 25 ppg on 43% against the old, ben wallace-less detroit.. By which time Zydrunas he begun to decline - he'd already fought through a career of injuries by that point that actually ended other players' careers.
.

The fact that you claim Big Z was always considered a great defender truly shows how young you are. Sure the Cavs as a team when they were contenders were great defensively, but ilgauskas was commonly known as a defensive liability, for much of his career.

And those 1 on 1s vs Shaq is completely skewed by out of prime, lazy, fatass Shaq.

[oarabbus]

The fact that you claim Big Z was always considered a great defender truly shows how young you are. Sure the Cavs as a team when they were contenders were great defensively, but ilgauskas was commonly known as a defensive liability, for much of his career.

And those 1 on 1s vs Shaq is completely skewed by out of prime, lazy, fatass Shaq.

3ball wrecked as usual

[aj1987]

Dwight Howard had a major injury - everyone knows he hasn't been the same player since, on the lakers OR houston.. It's like saying Nash hurt Amare's game after his microfracture surgery.. It's just dumb and people see through it.

But your post reveals the kind of poster you are - you'll say anything to prop up Lebron, even if it's false and a pure lie.
That's the same you're doing, you dumb shit. Larry Hughes had an injury and even after he left the Cav's, he never was the player he was earlier.

Big Z was a decent defender. He was an average player though his career at best. Stop bringing up All-Star games. He don't mean shit. Dude made them averaging 17/8 and 17/9 on 44% and 47%, which is terrible for a center.



Nash joined the Lakers at 38 years old...

Before he played his first game as a Laker, I stated on twoplustwo that his age had turned him into nothing more than a floor-spreader (which was spot-on).. So you can imagine how dumb I think it is to say Kobe turned him into a "scrub".

Btw, this is what Joe Johnson is now - don't think for a nanosecond that he'll be the all-star, shot-creating player he once was.. He's not.. He's done.. He's a floor-spreader now (albiet, pretty clutch one that can hit big shots).
Now you want to use context, huh? Moron.



Wow, you're way off on this one.. You might be right if Lebron had stayed in Miami and established a long tenure of championships with Bosh... But Lebron's stay in Miami will be perceived as a "stint" where Bosh played like shit and underperformed.
LeBron won him two rings. If there is any chance he is making the HOF, it will be because of the rings LeBron got him.

Bosh played like shit because he is soft AF. Are you blaming LeBron for him not making his jumpers, playing atrocious defense, and not being able to boxout players smaller than him and grabbing the rebounds? Wait. Of course you would.


Otoh, Bosh was a 20/10 player before sacrificing his prime for Lebron-ball - 20/10 players make the HOF regardless of how much they win.
Bosh didn't sacrifice shit. He wanted rings and he came to the Heat. You go ask him what he'd rather have and he's gonna say rings without any hesitation.

Zelmo Beaty, Boozer, Coleman, Big Al, Randolph, Naulls, McGinnis, Brand, etc.. If you think any of them are making the HOF, you're hopeless. All of them are similar to Bosh, BTW.


However, if Bosh HADN'T sacrificed his 20/10 years for Lebron-ball, he wouldn't be perceived as an underperformer - and with his 20/10 stats, he'd be a shoe-in for HOF, because players with stats that good always make HOF.
No, they don't.

Let me leave this here, from an earlier post:
To that guy who said Bosh doesn't play in the post anymore because of LeBron, Bosh himself said that he doesn't want to play in the post anymore. That he's done "banging in the post". Oh, and 85% of Bosh's shots were jumpshots in '14. 80% in '15. A 5% difference with and without LeBron.

In the 4 years Bosh played with LeBron, he took 13 shots a game in 34 MPG. In the 7 years before that, he took 14.4 shots a game in 37 MPG. A difference of 1.4 FGA while playing with LeBron AND Wade. 20.2/9.4 to 17.3/7.4. Lets all stop pretending that Bosh is anything more than a soft ass jump shooter.

In short, Bosh's PPG dropped a whooping 3 points along with 3 MPG. This for a guy playing along side two players who need over 15 shots a game is pretty good. Not to mention his shot attempts dropped by a marginal amount as well, while going from being the #1 option to the #3 option.

BTW, dumbass, without LeBron on the Heat Bosh playing 3 minutes MORE than last season, he managed only 0.4 rebounds more than LeBron. Lets blame LeBron for that as well.

[superteamtheory]

3Ball,

Yeah, that wasn't Bron's best year, that 20 year old campaign of his.. but while LeBron is a barely a man yet and failing by a few games to make the playoffs, Michael Jordan was at NC still mentally preparing himself to be able to play in the NBA..

While Michael Jordan was losing to a forgettable Bucks team, LeBron was making the NBA Finals... weak East or not, that's still better than what Jordan is doing at that age.

LeBron got to rings earlier than Jordan too. Jordan later caught up and has passed Bron for the time being in terms of rings, but Bron still has 1 more MVP at this age. In other words, it's all about equal accomplishments, so far.. I would agree MJ closed the deal as well as anybody.. We'll see what happens with Bron ... because that's the thing.. we don't know yet.

What we do know now is the roster advantages Jordan has had to this point and will have had for a whole career. Jordan has equal or better rosters vs. top competition from about 1988 to 1996 (9 yrs. played) -- about 5 equal, 4 superior IMO -- while LeBron has equal rosters in 2008 and 2011-2013 and arguably the upcoming 2016... He may have more down the road but even if he does, even after this season, he can have another four equal or better rosters and still be on pace with MJ.. ... He won't have had "extra help" unless he has it from 2016-2020..

LeBron never had a superior roster (unless you are a 2011 myth believer as are most) and he never will because of the way the league has become. (Beginning with the superteam Bulls perhaps.)
You say this is a media myth, it is not, it's just glancing over matchups.
The MEDIA MYTH (that mainstream ESPN is currently selling, just proving it's an outdated POV) is that LeBron has underachieved somehow and that Jordan was unstoppable and overcame all odds. The reality is, the 90's were a 1 star era in which the Bulls had 2 stars (and sometimes/later 3), 1 of whom was the best in the game and still needed all this help..

I think Jordan is the GOAT as of now p.s., but he'd have impressed me more if his competition were greater or if he didn't have Pippen. Then I'd say this is no contest. But that's not the case..

[Trollsmasher]

194-198

MJ couldn't even get above the 8th spot with 24 ppg, 60% TS Orlando Woolridge as a second option

[sportjames23]

Remember when MJ made the playoffs with 30 wins


Actually 38 wins. In a much tougher Eastern Conference.

But carry on.

[Trollsmasher]

Actually 38 wins. In a much tougher Eastern Conference.

But carry on.
conference is not tough if 8 out of 10 teams make the playoffs:lol

[Megabox!]

conference is not tough if 8 out of 10 teams make the playoffs:lol
:oldlol:

[3ball]

conference is not tough if 8 out of 10 teams make the playoffs:lol
It makes no difference whatsoever - a 15-team conference means you have 7 teams per conference that suck and miss the playoffs, as opposed to only 2.

There were only 20 teams in the 80's, which meant only the top 300 players in the world made the NBA.

In today's game, there are 30 teams, which means the top 450 players in the world make the NBA - so today's game includes 150 CBA-level players that wouldn't make the league in 1985.

[Lodi Dodi]

you're an idiot. OP was talking about how easy it was to make playoffs in 2004-05 season in the east when it was easier to make playoffs in 85,86,87.

Jordan's foot wasn't broken the next season. Explain that.

I was merely pointing out that you using the '86 season as a fault against Jordan was disingenuous because he didn't even play that many games.

As for the next season, I agree Jordan could've done much better than beating Nique by 8 ppg while scoring more points than any play since Wilt.
:hammerhead:

[HurricaneKid]

There were only 10 teams in the entire conference back then, compared to 15 per conference today...

Can you understand this or are you too dumb?


Your post shows how little you know about hoops back then - you just think MJ always had a championship team.. But his early teams were some of the worst supporting casts ever - again, he never had an all-star center or all-nba defensive teammates.



Cool. As long as you admit you started a thread saying how much better MJ was based on finishing 8th of 10 teams at the age of 22 compared to LeBron finishing 9th out of 15 teams at the age of 20.

I know more about 80s/90s ball than you know about ball period.

You repeatedly show the forum how very dumb you are. This thread is merely exhibit 14,349,467.

[3ball]

MJ was based on finishing 8th of 10 teams at the age of 22 compared to LeBron finishing 9th out of 15 teams at the age of 20.


MJ was 21 his rookie year when he made the playoffs... Lebron was 20 when he missed.. That's not an argument against MJ.

Now let's compare both players' performances at 22 years old against championship teams:

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007:. 20 ppg on 35%
Jordan vs. Celtics in 1986: 45 ppg on 51%

Btw, the 1986 Celtics had the #1 defense in the league.





LeBron finishing 9th out of 15 teams at the age of 20.


The more teams in a conference, the weaker the teams are because the talent is spread out thinner.. This is indisputable fact and that's why everyone says the 80's was the tougher era.

There were only 20 teams in the 80's, which meant only the top 300 players in the world made the NBA.

In today's game, there are 30 teams, which means the top 450 players in the world make the NBA - so today's game includes 150 CBA-level players that wouldn't make the league in 1985.





I know more about 80s/90s ball than you know about ball period.

You repeatedly show the forum how very dumb you are.


Did you play D1 ball and play against tons of NBA players?.. You have a 3rd grade understanding of the game compared to me.

Did you dunk on Zach Randolph 4 times in a row in a game of 1-on-1 when he was a sophomore all-american? (i did :D )

[3ball]

Hurricane Kid is ghost after my last post..

[3ball]

:yaohappy:

[3ball]

Yeah, that wasn't Bron's best year, that 20 year old campaign of his..


So wait - your argument is that Lebron was 20 when he missed the playoffs, while MJ was 21 when he MADE the playoffs?

Wow that's dumb.. 20 vs. 21... You got me dude... What an argument.. :bowdown:





While Michael Jordan was losing to a forgettable Bucks team, LeBron was making the NBA Finals... weak East or not, that's still better than what Jordan is doing at that age.


Another bad argument - plenty of HS players went to the NBA and did things before MJ, but MJ is better all of them.. The age means nothing - it's just a diversion so you can avoid facing the reality of MJ's superiority..

But I'll play your game, because MJ still wins - let's compare both players' performances at 22 years old against championship teams:

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007: 20 ppg on 35%
Jordan vs. Celtics in 1986: 45 ppg on 51%

Btw, the 1986 Celtics had the #1 defense in the league.





LeBron got to rings earlier than Jordan too.. and Bron still has 1 more MVP at this age. In other words, it's all about equal accomplishments, so far..


Thru 30 years old, MJ had 3 championships, 3 FMVP, while Lebron has 2 championships and 2 FMVP...

And MJ's stats are FAR better.. Here are both players' playoff and Finals stats thru 30 years old:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381330

Not close.. MJ had the far better career thru 30 years old.. :confusedshrug:





Jordan has equal or better rosters vs. top competition from about 1988 to 1996 (9 yrs. played)


MJ's 1985-1990 rosters are recognized as being the most 1-man teams of all time.... That's why he faced the "Jordan Rules"... This is historical fact - Jordan's arduous ordeals as a 1-man team are well-documented.

I could post a million quotes from Bill Laimbeer, Isiah, Dumars, Chuck Daly, Rodman, Phil Jackson saying that the Bulls were a 1-man team in the 80's.. But that would be a waste of time - it would be like me posting quotes of people saying Westbrook is fast..

It's not my fault that you're ignorant about the basics of basketball history (i.e. that the 80's Bulls were the most 1-man team in history).





The reality is, the 90's were a 1 star era


Teams in 1990's with 2+ all-stars in same season:

david robinson - tim duncan
shawn kemp - gary payton - detlef schrempf
charles barkley - kevin johnson - dan majerle
john stockton - karl malone - hornacek
tim hardaway - alonzo mourning
shaq - penny hardaway - horace grant
shaq - kobe bryant - eddie jones - nick van exel
hakeem olajuwon - clyde drexler - charles barkley
isiah thomas - joe dumars - dennis rodman
brad daughtery - mark price - larry nance (and Ron Harper)
jason kidd - jamal mashburn - jim jackson
chris webber - juwan howard - rod strickland





I think Jordan is the GOAT as of now p.s., but MJ would've impressed me more if his competition were greater


Your post is factually inaccurate - ESPN pointed out that MJ played the FAR better competition:

http://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9lezeXPnksBqScKND55F1Ewuenk1HdMDpsFC_vpawj8.jpg





or if he didn't have Pippen.


Didn't have Pippen?... That means Lebron's championships don't count because he had Wade and Bosh.. For Lebron to win a championship, he needed a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option (Bosh), AND Dwayne Wade.

Btw, MJ took lottery team (coached by Doug Collins) to the ECF in 1989, where they went 6 games with the champion Bad Boys... If MJ can take the champion Bad Boys to 6, then he can easily beat the old, ben-wallace-less 2007 Pistons or pathetic 2015 Hawks.
.

[branslowski]

So wait - your argument is that Lebron was 20 when he missed the playoffs, while MJ was 21 when he MADE the playoffs?

Wow that's dumb.. 20 vs. 21... You got me dude... What an argument.. :bowdown:



Another bad argument - plenty of HS players went to the NBA and did things before MJ, but MJ is better all of them.. The age means nothing - it's just a diversion so you can avoid facing the reality of MJ's superiority..

But I'll play your game, because MJ still wins - let's compare both players' performances at 22 years old against championship teams:

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007: 20 ppg on 35%
Jordan vs. Celtics in 1986: 45 ppg on 51%

Btw, the 1986 Celtics had the #1 defense in the league.



Thru 30 years old, MJ had 3 championships, 3 FMVP, while Lebron has 2 championships and 2 FMVP...

And MJ's stats are FAR better.. Here are both players' playoff and Finals stats thru 30 years old:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381330

Not close.. MJ had the far better career thru 30 years old.. :confusedshrug:



MJ's 1985-1990 rosters are recognized as being the most 1-man teams of all time.... That's why he faced the "Jordan Rules"... This is historical fact - Jordan's arduous ordeals as a 1-man team are well-documented.

I could post a million quotes from Bill Laimbeer, Isiah, Dumars, Chuck Daly, Rodman, Phil Jackson saying that the Bulls were a 1-man team in the 80's.. But that would be a waste of time - it would be like me posting quotes of people saying Westbrook is fast..

It's not my fault that you're ignorant about the basics of basketball history (i.e. that the 80's Bulls were the most 1-man team in history).



Teams in 1990's with 2+ all-stars in same season:

david robinson - tim duncan
shawn kemp - gary payton - detlef schrempf
charles barkley - kevin johnson - dan majerle
john stockton - karl malone - hornacek
tim hardaway - alonzo mourning
shaq - penny hardaway - horace grant
shaq - kobe bryant - eddie jones - nick van exel
hakeem olajuwon - clyde drexler - charles barkley
isiah thomas - joe dumars - dennis rodman
brad daughtery - mark price - larry nance (and Ron Harper)
jason kidd - jamal mashburn - jim jackson
chris webber - juwan howard - rod strickland



Your post is factually inaccurate - ESPN pointed out that MJ played the FAR better competition:

http://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9lezeXPnksBqScKND55F1Ewuenk1HdMDpsFC_vpawj8.jpg



Didn't have Pippen?... That means Lebron's championships don't count because he had Wade and Bosh.. For Lebron to win a championship, he needed a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option (Bosh), AND Dwayne Wade.

Btw, MJ took lottery team (coached by Doug Collins) to the ECF in 1989, where they went 6 games with the champion Bad Boys... If MJ can take the champion Bad Boys to 6, then he can easily beat the old, ben-wallace-less 2007 Pistons or pathetic 2015 Hawks.

Damn, straight Ether.

[aj1987]

So wait - your argument is that Lebron was 20 when he missed the playoffs, while MJ was 21 when he MADE the playoffs?

Wow that's dumb.. 20 vs. 21... You got me dude... What an argument.. :bowdown:
30 win team, right? The weak garbage ass conference excuse that you idiots use right now.


Another bad argument - plenty of HS players went to the NBA and did things before MJ, but MJ is better all of them.. The age means nothing - it's just a diversion so you can avoid facing the reality of MJ's superiority..

But I'll play your game, because MJ still wins - let's compare both players' performances at 22 years old against championship teams:

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007: 20 ppg on 35%
Jordan vs. Celtics in 1986: 45 ppg on 51%

Btw, the 1986 Celtics had the #1 defense in the league.
I knew you were garbage when it comes to math, but this is on another level.

You literally added 1.7 points to MJ's scoring and decreased LeBron's scoring by 2 PPG. That's not how you round in basketball, you moron.

1. MJ had 3 double digit scorers in that series.
2. LeBron had 2.
3. MJ had a 21 PPG scorer and LeBron had none.

Yeah, lets ignore all those FACTS.

1986 Celtics - 102.6 DRtg
2007 Spurs - 99.9 DRtg

Yeah, those are FACTS.


Thru 30 years old, MJ had 3 championships, 3 FMVP, while Lebron has 2 championships and 2 FMVP...
3 MVP's
3 Rings
3 FMVP's

vs

4 MVP's
2 Rings
2 FMVP's



Not close.. MJ had the far better career thru 30 years old.. :confused shrug:
Sure. He had the better career, but not a "far better" career.


MJ's 1985-1990 rosters are recognized as being the most 1-man teams of all time.... That's why he faced the "Jordan Rules"... This is historical fact - Jordan's arduous ordeals as a 1-man team are well-documented.
:biggums:

I'm guessing you were born in the late '00's?


I could post a million quotes from Bill Laimbeer, Isiah, Dumars, Chuck Daly, Rodman, Phil Jackson saying that the Bulls were a 1-man team in the 80's.. But that would be a waste of time - it would be like me posting quotes of people saying Westbrook is fast..
Post a million different quotes from those people and I'm gonna give you $5k.


Didn't have Pippen?... That means Lebron's championships don't count because he had Wade and Bosh.. For Lebron to win a championship, he needed a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option (Bosh), AND Dwayne Wade.

Btw, MJ took lottery team (coached by Doug Collins) to the ECF in 1989, where they went 6 games with the champion Bad Boys... If MJ can take the champion Bad Boys to 6, then he can easily beat the old, ben-wallace-less 2007 Pistons or pathetic 2015 Hawks..

Dwight Howard had a major injury - everyone knows he hasn't been the same player since, on the lakers OR houston.. It's like saying Nash hurt Amare's game after his microfracture surgery.. It's just dumb and people see through it.

But your post reveals the kind of poster you are - you'll say anything to prop up Lebron, even if it's false and a pure lie.
That's the same you're doing, you dumb shit. Larry Hughes had an injury and even after he left the Cav's, he never was the player he was earlier.

Big Z was a decent defender. He was an average player though his career at best. Stop bringing up All-Star games. He don't mean shit. Dude made them averaging 17/8 and 17/9 on 44% and 47%, which is terrible for a center.



Nash joined the Lakers at 38 years old...

Before he played his first game as a Laker, I stated on twoplustwo that his age had turned him into nothing more than a floor-spreader (which was spot-on).. So you can imagine how dumb I think it is to say Kobe turned him into a "scrub".

Btw, this is what Joe Johnson is now - don't think for a nanosecond that he'll be the all-star, shot-creating player he once was.. He's not.. He's done.. He's a floor-spreader now (albiet, pretty clutch one that can hit big shots).
Now you want to use context, huh? Moron.



Wow, you're way off on this one.. You might be right if Lebron had stayed in Miami and established a long tenure of championships with Bosh... But Lebron's stay in Miami will be perceived as a "stint" where Bosh played like shit and underperformed.
LeBron won him two rings. If there is any chance he is making the HOF, it will be because of the rings LeBron got him.

Bosh played like shit because he is soft AF. Are you blaming LeBron for him not making his jumpers, playing atrocious defense, and not being able to boxout players smaller than him and grabbing the rebounds? Wait. Of course you would.


Otoh, Bosh was a 20/10 player before sacrificing his prime for Lebron-ball - 20/10 players make the HOF regardless of how much they win.
Bosh didn't sacrifice shit. He wanted rings and he came to the Heat. You go ask him what he'd rather have and he's gonna say rings without any hesitation.

Zelmo Beaty, Boozer, Coleman, Big Al, Randolph, Naulls, McGinnis, Brand, etc.. If you think any of them are making the HOF, you're hopeless. All of them are similar to Bosh, BTW.


However, if Bosh HADN'T sacrificed his 20/10 years for Lebron-ball, he wouldn't be perceived as an underperformer - and with his 20/10 stats, he'd be a shoe-in for HOF, because players with stats that good always make HOF.
No, they don't.

Let me leave this here, from an earlier post:
To that guy who said Bosh doesn't play in the post anymore because of LeBron, Bosh himself said that he doesn't want to play in the post anymore. That he's done "banging in the post". Oh, and 85% of Bosh's shots were jumpshots in '14. 80% in '15. A 5% difference with and without LeBron.

In the 4 years Bosh played with LeBron, he took 13 shots a game in 34 MPG. In the 7 years before that, he took 14.4 shots a game in 37 MPG. A difference of 1.4 FGA while playing with LeBron AND Wade. 20.2/9.4 to 17.3/7.4. Lets all stop pretending that Bosh is anything more than a soft ass jump shooter.

In short, Bosh's PPG dropped a whooping 3 points along with 3 MPG. This for a guy playing along side two players who need over 15 shots a game is pretty good. Not to mention his shot attempts dropped by a marginal amount as well, while going from being the #1 option to the #3 option.

BTW, dumbass, without LeBron on the Heat Bosh playing 3 minutes MORE than last season, he managed only 0.4 rebounds more than LeBron. Lets blame LeBron for that as well.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Yes I do thanks for the reminder

[3ball]

30 win team, right? The weak garbage ass conference excuse that you idiots use right now.


No, in 1985, the Bulls won 38 games and made the playoffs, where rookie MJ dropped 29/6/9 on 58% TS against the reigning, back-to-back DPOY (moncrief)..

That's the GOAT performance for a rookie in his first playoff series.





You literally added 1.7 points to MJ's scoring and decreased LeBron's scoring by 2 PPG. That's not how you round in basketball, you moron.


Does that make a difference when the difference is that large??... I figured you'd let it go - that's some autistic shit..

MJ averaged 44 ppg to Lebron's 22... LITERALLY DOUBLE, with 16 percentage points higher field goal efficiency (51% to 35%).. But go ahead an harp on 1.7 points, little buddy.





1. MJ had 3 double digit scorers in that series, including 21 ppg scorer
2. LeBron had 2.


Who cares - MJ averaged 44 ppg to Lebron's 22... LITERALLY DOUBLE, with 16 percentage points higher field goal efficiency (51% to 35%)..

Again, your willingness to overlook the obvious is makes you mentally questionable.





1986 Celtics - 102.6 DRtg
2007 Spurs - 99.9 DRtg


Lebron has never put up anywhere NEAR Jordan's 44/6/6 against defenses with far higher than 102.6 DRtg.

Also, you're the one that doesn't get math or advanced stats - higher offensive rebounding rate increases ORtg..

The higher league-wide offensive rebounding rate at the time (due to the far higher proportion of 2-pointers taken) caused higher league-wide ORtg.. Higher league-wide ORtg meant higher league-wide DRtg (since they're the same number).





3 MVP's
3 Rings
3 FMVP's

vs

4 MVP's
2 Rings
2 FMVP's


1 more championship and 1 more FMVP is far greater than 1 more RS MVP -

It's an extra championship, dude.. and FMVP.. in just half a career.. a RS MVP doesn't come close to that.





MJ had a better career by age 30, but not far better


By age 30, Jordan had an extra championship and FMVP - just halfway through his career... A regular season MVP doesn't come close to that....

Also, Jordan had far better stats in the playoffs and Finals through 30 years old and for his career.. So yeah, MJ's career was FAR better:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381330





Bosh played like shit because he is soft AF. Are you blaming LeBron for him not making his jumpers, playing atrocious defense, and not being able to boxout players smaller than him and grabbing the rebounds?


Lebron doesn't improve players as they play with him like MJ did... The perfect example is how Lebron can't build up a lottery team into a champion.. His ball-dominant, athleticism-driven style doesn't foster growth in teammates, superior strategy, or an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play, so his teams never improve over the years to win a championship, LIKE MJ'S DID.

You should understand that dynasties aren't dynasties just based on talent - they win based on superior, cutting edge strategy (Celtics, Pistons, Bulls, Spurs) and the players with the CAPACITY to execute that strategy.. Unfortunately, the basic, unadjustable style that Lebron employs prevents his teams from ever being those teams that use optimal, cutting edge strategy.

Instead of having the capacity within his game to foster the growth of teammates, superior strategy, and an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play, Lebron can only go 2/4 by teaming up with unprecedented supporting talent (i.e. a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option, Bosh).. Lebron is really a Karl Malone-level player that teamed up with Drexler and Mchale to go 2/4.





Bosh didn't sacrifice shit.


He did - he was 24/11 right before joining Lebron and was entering his prime at 25 years old.. Then he dipped to 16/6 with Lebron... That's TOO FAR of a drop-off for any excuses.

And you DEFINITELY can't predict what would've happened to Bosh if he hadn't joined Lebron.. He would've been in Houston or Dallas crushing it there - remember, he was a free agent.

Btw, Kevin Love sacrificed even more - he dropped from 26/13 to 16/10.. :eek:
.

[VIP2000]

He did - he was 24/11 right before joining Lebron and was entering his prime at 25 years old.. Then he dipped to 16/6 with Lebron... That's TOO FAR of a drop-off for any excuses.

And you DEFINITELY can't predict what would've happened to Bosh if he hadn't joined Lebron.. He would've been in Houston or Dallas crushing it there - remember, he was a free agent.

Btw, Kevin Love sacrificed even more - he dropped from 26/13 to 16/10.. :eek:
.

You *DO* know Bosh went from a 1st option on a mediocre non-playoff team to a 3rd option on a championship-caliber team, right? Of course, his stats are gonna drop. That's like saying Ron Harper should have been averaging 22ppg on the 2nd 3-peat Bulls because that's what he was doing as a Cavalier.

[Dresta]

lol @ anyone trying to defend Bron's horseshit 07 finals performance.

[3ball]

You *DO* know Bosh went from a 1st option on a mediocre non-playoff team to a 3rd option on a championship-caliber team, right? Of course, his stats are gonna drop. That's like saying Ron Harper should have been averaging 22ppg on the 2nd 3-peat Bulls because that's what he was doing as a Cavalier.
Falling from 24/11 to 16/6 is too far of a drop - it indicates something is wrong (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=382545).

Btw, Ron Harper had several major injuries that slowed him down, plus he wasn't a 3rd option for the Bulls - he was a 7th or 8th option, literally...

A better comparison would be 3rd option Kukoc and Grant, or 2nd option Pippen - for all of these guys, their stats didn't change when MJ left or came back - their stats prove they played at literally 95% capacity alongside MJ... Compare that to Bosh and Love who drop off 60+%... :rolleyes:

[Wade's Rings]

@3ball Bosh signed with Miami in 2010 on July 7th, Bron signed July 8th. It would've been a Wade & Bosh duo for the next couple years had Bron not joined. Bosh wasn't going to Houston or Dallas.

[aj1987]

No, in 1985, the Bulls won 38 games and made the playoffs, where rookie MJ dropped 29/6/9 on 58% TS against the reigning, back-to-back DPOY (moncrief)..

That's the GOAT performance for a rookie in his first playoff series.
The GOAT Playoff performance in a rookie year belongs to Magic. Not even close.

Sure, the Bulls won 38 that season. Won 30 the very next season and still made the PO's. Literally a garbage ass conference except the top 1-2 teams. Definitely worse than what the EC has been the past 10+ years.




Does that make a difference when the difference is that large??... I figured you'd let it go - that's some autistic shit..

MJ averaged 44 ppg to Lebron's 22... LITERALLY DOUBLE, with 16 percentage points higher field goal efficiency (51% to 35%).. But go ahead an harp on 1.7 points, little buddy.
I'm just pointing it out because you like to make shit up from time to time, hoping no one calls you out on it. This is not the first time I called you out on your 1st grade math skills as well.


Again, your willingness to overlook the obvious is makes you mentally questionable.
You posting essays about a player you makes you look like a sociopath. Again, if you live in LA/CHI/NY, I've got friends there who are shrinks. They'll give you an amazing price. Just let me know if you want to go meet one.


Also, you're the one that doesn't get math or advanced stats - higher offensive rebounding rate increases ORtg..
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

1896 Boston Celtics:

Pace - 101.2
ORB - 12.8
PPG - 114.2
ORTG - 111.8

2007 San Antonio Spurs -

Pace - 89.8
ORB - 9.2
PPG - 98.5
ORTG - 109.2


The higher league-wide offensive rebounding rate at the time (due to the far higher proportion of 2-pointers taken) caused higher league-wide ORtg.. Higher league-wide ORtg meant higher league-wide DRtg (since they're the same number).
DRtg is pace adjusted, idiot. It's literally stands for "opponents points scored per 100 possessions". Doesn't matter if a team player 8197291 possessions and another player 10. It's PER 100 possessions.


1 more championship and 1 more FMVP is far greater than 1 more RS MVP -

It's an extra championship, dude.. and FMVP.. in just half a career.. a RS MVP doesn't come close to that.
No doubt. I'd take 3 MVP's, 3 Rings, and 3 FMVP's over 4 MVP, 2 Rings, and 2 FMVP's.


By age 30, Jordan had an extra championship and FMVP - just halfway through his career... A regular season MVP doesn't come close to that....
Again, it's not "far better". According to your retarded logic, Russell is by FAR the GOAT, since he has 5 MVPS and 11 Rings. Which are FAR better than 5 MVP's and 6 measly rings.


He did - he was 24/11 right before joining Lebron and was entering his prime at 25 years old.. Then he dipped to 16/6 with Lebron... That's TOO FAR of a drop-off for any excuses.

And you DEFINITELY can't predict what would've happened to Bosh if he hadn't joined Lebron.. He would've been in Houston or Dallas crushing it there - remember, he was a free agent.

Btw, Kevin Love sacrificed even more - he dropped from 26/13 to 16/10.. :eek:
.

To that guy who said Bosh doesn't play in the post anymore because of LeBron, Bosh himself said that he doesn't want to play in the post anymore. That he's done "banging in the post". Oh, and 85% of Bosh's shots were jumpshots in '14. 80% in '15. A 5% difference with and without LeBron.

In the 4 years Bosh played with LeBron, he took 13 shots a game in 34 MPG. In the 7 years before that, he took 14.4 shots a game in 37 MPG. A difference of 1.4 FGA while playing with LeBron AND Wade. 20.2/9.4 to 17.3/7.4. Lets all stop pretending that Bosh is anything more than a soft ass jump shooter.

In short, Bosh's PPG dropped a whooping 3 points along with 3 MPG. This for a guy playing along side two players who need over 15 shots a game is pretty good. Not to mention his shot attempts dropped by a marginal amount as well, while going from being the #1 option to the #3 option.

BTW, dumbass, without LeBron on the Heat Bosh playing 3 minutes MORE than last season, he managed only 0.4 rebounds more than LeBron. Lets blame LeBron for that as well.

[aj1987]

You *DO* know Bosh went from a 1st option on a mediocre non-playoff team to a 3rd option on a championship-caliber team, right? Of course, his stats are gonna drop. That's like saying Ron Harper should have been averaging 22ppg on the 2nd 3-peat Bulls because that's what he was doing as a Cavalier.
He doesn't. Dude knows NOTHING outside basketball-reference. His arguments start and die there. I'm pretty sure that the only basketball he has ever watched in his life are just highlights on youtube.

[3ball]

@3ball Bosh signed with Miami in 2010 on July 7th, Bron signed July 8th. It would've been a Wade & Bosh duo for the next couple years had Bron not joined. Bosh wasn't going to Houston or Dallas.
Great - we have better information about what Bosh would've done if Lebron wasn't there.

We know from this season, that a 30-year old, injured, past-his-prime Bosh is was a 21/7 player alongside Wade...

So we can assume his pre-injury, prime stats for the previous 4 years alongside just Wade (no Lebron) would've been even better.. I'd say 24/11 for the first 2 years in 2011 and 2012 (since that's what he got in 2010, before Lebron), and then 22/9 for the last 2... This seems like the most reasonable assumption possible.

But again, comparing to MJ - the stats of Pippen, Kukoc, and Grant didn't change when MJ left or came back - their stats prove they played at literally 95% capacity alongside MJ... Compare that to Bosh and Love who drop off 60% or more.
.

[aj1987]

We know from this season, that a 30-year old, injured, past-his-prime Bosh is was a 21/7 player alongside Wade...

.
Bosh wasn't injured before he was diagnosed with those clots, idiot.

0.4 more rebounds with an increase in 3 minutes playing time and a loss of a 7-8 RPG dude. A center averaging 7 RPG. :roll:

You should change your name to 3L, retard.

[Dresta]

Bosh wasn't injured before he was diagnosed with those clots, idiot.

0.4 more rebounds with an increase in 3 minutes playing time and a loss of a 7-8 RPG dude. A center averaging 7 RPG. :roll:

You should change your name to 3L, retard.
Those clots would almost certainly have affected his performance in the weeks leading up to when he was diagnosed.

[Lebron23]

3ball is getting his $hit pushed in. I am tired of reading this clown's posts.

[3ball]

DRtg is pace adjusted, idiot. It's literally stands for "opponents points scored per 100 possessions". Doesn't matter if a team player 8197291 possessions and another player 10. It's PER 100 possessions.


What does your description of per 100 possessions have to do with my post:


"The higher league-wide offensive rebounding rate in previous eras (due to the far higher proportion of 2-pointers taken) caused higher league-wide ORtg.. Higher league-wide ORtg meant higher league-wide DRtg (since they're the same number)."





without LeBron on the Heat Bosh playing 3 minutes MORE than last season, he managed only 0.4 rebounds more than LeBron. Lets blame LeBron for that as well.


Lebron didn't hinder Bosh's rebounding... But he killed his offense and overall game.. Just like he did Love - the offense of both players fell off 60% alongside Lebron.

Otoh, the stats of Pippen, Kukoc, and Grant didn't change when MJ left or came back - their stats prove they played at literally 95% capacity alongside MJ.

And looks like you agreed with everything else (i.e. having 1 more championship and 1 more FMVP through half a career and much better stats makes for a "far" better career):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381330
.

[aj1987]

What does your description of per 100 possessions have to do with my post:


"The higher league-wide offensive rebounding rate in previous eras (due to the far higher proportion of 2-pointers taken) caused higher league-wide ORtg.. Higher league-wide ORtg meant higher league-wide DRtg (since they're the same number)."


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm



Lebron didn't hinder Bosh's rebounding... But he killed his offense and overall game.. Just like he did Love - the offense of both players fell off 60% alongside Lebron.

And looks like you agreed with everything else (i.e. having 1 more championship and 1 more FMVP through half a career and much better stats makes for a "far" better career)
You don't think the loss of 27 PPG and ~18 shots LeBron took might've something to do with Bosh adding 5 PPG? You honestly can't be this stupid. Wait. Math and analytical thinking aren't something which you're good at, right?

BTW, why did Howard go from being a DPOY player to a decent defender at best?Why did he drop 3 PPG and 2 RPG? Might have something to do with injury and sharing the ball, right? Same with Love you literal retard. Irving and LeBron account for almost 40 shots a game. That's the reason why his stats dropped. Not to mention his back injury.

Oh, and LeBron took a bunch of PO virgins to the PO's and a bunch of Finals virgins to the Finals.

Honest question. Have you ever actually watched an entire game of basketball (YT highlight do not count)? An ENTIRE game. In your life...?

[Lebron23]

Aj1987 just wrecked 3ball.

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/229/files/2014/01/brock-f5-big-show.gif

[hiphopfan777]

So did durant and westbrook,shaq and wade, kobe and gasol,

[3ball]

So did durant and westbrook,shaq and wade, kobe and gasol,
durant and westbrook never missed the playoffs when both were healthy.. That's obvious.

Shaq never missed the playoffs when he played with another all-star - not sure where you got the idea that he did.. maybe when he was old with boston or something.

ditto on kobe and gasol - they never missed the playoffs while playing with another all-star.

not one player you mentioned missed the playoffs with another all-star on their team.

[3ball]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm


Never forget - here's both players' performances at 22 years old against championship teams:

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007: 22 ppg on 35%
Jordan vs. Celtics in 1986: 44 ppg on 51%

Btw, the 1986 Celtics had the #1 defense in the league.. This is a perfect comparison that you cannot refute one iota..

It's one of the cleanest measurements of MJ's superiority there is... There are plenty though obviously - i.e. MJ sweeping Shaq/Penny, while Lebron went 7 with Hibbert/George.. and 6/6 vs. 2/6 is the biggest one obviously.





You don't think the loss of 27 PPG and ~18 shots LeBron took might've something to do with Bosh adding 5 PPG?


MJ removed his 32 ppg and 24 shots from the Bulls, and Pippen's stats went from 21.6 to 22.0 ppg.... While Grant went from 14/10 to 15/11.

Again, Lebron's game reduced Bosh and Love's offense by 60% or more, while Pippen and Grant played at 95% capacity alongside MJ..

You have to understand - MJ did everyting offensively at an elite level - footwork, post, triple-threat, off-the-dribble, mid-range, you name it.. So he could get his GOAT stats in whatever capacity that allowed everyone to stay in their comfort zone, which maximized team productivity and chances of winning - that's what MJ was all about, winning.





Oh, and LeBron took a bunch of PO virgins to the PO's and a bunch of Finals virgins to the Finals.


No different then MJ - he took a lottery team (coached by Doug Collins) to the ECF in 1989, where they went 6 games with the champion Bad Boys.

If Jordan can take the champion Bad Boys to 6, then he can easily beat the pathetic Hawks or the old, 53-win Pistons in 2007 (who no longer had Ben Wallace or a top team defense) - heck Lebron only needed to average 25 ppg on 43% to beat those Pistons!!!... That's worse than ANY playoff series in MJs career.

Clearly, MJ has the GOAT impact on bad teams (taking a lottery team to ECF and 6 games with world champs in 1989... also, MJ is the only player to ever lead a lottery team to 3-peat - even Russel's Celtics were conference finals the year before he got there)..

And of course, we all know about his GOAT impact on decent teams - the Bulls fell from 3-peat champs to 2nd Round without him in 1994, which is the biggest decline ever when a star player leaves a team.





Honest question. Have you ever actually watched an entire game of basketball (YT highlight do not count)? An ENTIRE game. In your life...?


I played D1 with tons of NBA players.. Why watch when you can do

[aj1987]

MJ removed his 32 ppg and 24 shots from the Bulls, and Pippen's stats went from 21.6 to 22.0 ppg.... While Grant went from 14/10 to 15/11.
Lies after lies.

Pippen was at 18.6 in '93 and 22 in '94. Grant added 1 PPG. BJ added 3 PPG. Not to mention the addition on Kukoc, etc..


Again, Lebron's game reduced Bosh and Love's offense by 60% or more, while Pippen and Grant played at 95% capacity alongside MJ..
Why the **** are you bringing up MJ? Is he paying you post on this board. You quoted my post about Kobe. Dumbass.

To that guy who said Bosh doesn't play in the post anymore because of LeBron, Bosh himself said that he doesn't want to play in the post anymore. That he's done "banging in the post". Oh, and 85% of Bosh's shots were jumpshots in '14. 80% in '15. A 5% difference with and without LeBron.

In the 4 years Bosh played with LeBron, he took 13 shots a game in 34 MPG. In the 7 years before that, he took 14.4 shots a game in 37 MPG. A difference of 1.4 FGA while playing with LeBron AND Wade. 20.2/9.4 to 17.3/7.4. Lets all stop pretending that Bosh is anything more than a soft ass jump shooter.

In short, Bosh's PPG dropped a whooping 3 points along with 3 MPG. This for a guy playing along side two players who need over 15 shots a game is pretty good. Not to mention his shot attempts dropped by a marginal amount as well, while going from being the #1 option to the #3 option.

BTW, dumbass, without LeBron on the Heat Bosh playing 3 minutes MORE than last season, he managed only 0.4 rebounds more than LeBron. Lets blame LeBron for that as well.



No different then MJ - he took a lottery team (coached by Doug Collins) to the ECF in 1989, where they went 6 games with the champion Bad Boys.

If Jordan can take the champion Bad Boys to 6, then he can easily beat the pathetic Hawks or the old, 53-win Pistons in 2007 (who no longer had Ben Wallace or a top team defense) - heck Lebron only needed to average 25 ppg on 43% to beat those Pistons!!!... That's worse than ANY playoff series in MJs career.

Clearly, MJ has the GOAT impact on bad teams (taking a lottery team to ECF and 6 games with world champs in 1989... also, MJ is the only player to ever lead a lottery team to 3-peat - even Russel's Celtics were conference finals the year before he got there)..

And of course, we all know about his GOAT impact on decent teams - the Bulls fell from 3-peat champs to 2nd Round without him in 1994, which is the biggest decline ever when a star player leaves a team.
What the **** is wrong with you. When did I ever say that LeBron is better than MJ? Idiot.




I played D1 with tons of NBA players.. Why watch when you can do
I honestly doubt it. I don't think you even touched a basketball in your life. Ever.

[3ball]

Pippen was at 18.6 in '93 and 22 in '94. Grant added 1 PPG. BJ added 3 PPG. Not to mention the addition on Kukoc, etc..


not in 1992.. with MJ in 1992, Pippen averaged 21.6 ppg and Grant was 14/11.

without MJ in 1994, pippen was 22.0 ppg and Grant was 15/11.

Again, they played at 95% capacity alongside MJ, who had the highest FGA ever..

How is this possible?.. GOAT skill - MJ did everyting offensively at an elite level.. So he could get his GOAT stats in whatever capacity that allowed everyone to stay in their comfort zone, which maximized team productivity and chances of winning - that's what MJ was all about, winning.

[superteamtheory]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm



You don't think the loss of 27 PPG and ~18 shots LeBron took might've something to do with Bosh adding 5 PPG? You honestly can't be this stupid. Wait. Math and analytical thinking aren't something which you're good at, right?

BTW, why did Howard go from being a DPOY player to a decent defender at best?Why did he drop 3 PPG and 2 RPG? Might have something to do with injury and sharing the ball, right? Same with Love you literal retard. Irving and LeBron account for almost 40 shots a game. That's the reason why his stats dropped. Not to mention his back injury.

Oh, and LeBron took a bunch of PO virgins to the PO's and a bunch of Finals virgins to the Finals.

Honest question. Have you ever actually watched an entire game of basketball (YT highlight do not count)? An ENTIRE game. In your life...?

He's a stats guy and an analytical guy. Common sense stuff is beyond him.

Stuff like, here's a thought, did Bosh's #'s drop from Bron ball or because up in Canada they were playing Bosh-ball as in running everything through him all the time didn't have much else so of course he's gonna look good..

Yes, his stats spiked again once Bron goes because they are doing the same thing in Miami now as Wade gets older... They got Wade and Bron as offensive options, that's it...

Bosh couldn't get out of first round before he hopped on Bron's back..

Love couldn't make playoffs... Love's # dips happened for similar reasons (in Minnesota he gets all the touches he wants) but also because it's a new roster in Cleveland and they're working things out -- things were starting to come together very nicely in the first round vs. Boston for Love and team before the injury.. if you were actually watching the games..

[aj1987]

not in 1992.. with MJ in 1992, Pippen averaged 21.6 ppg and Grant was 14/11.

without MJ in 1994, pippen was 22.0 ppg and Grant was 15/11.

Again, they played at 95% capacity alongside MJ, who had the highest FGA ever..

How is this possible?.. GOAT skill - MJ did everyting offensively at an elite level.. So he could get his GOAT stats in whatever capacity that allowed everyone to stay in their comfort zone, which maximized team productivity and chances of winning - that's what MJ was all about, winning.
Christ!

:facepalm :facepalm

[nzahir]

3Ball actually thinking he is right
https://i1.wp.com/static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/117031/3783720-lol.gif

[Trollsmasher]

194-198

btw

1-9

[superteamtheory]

Never forget - here's both players' performances at 22 years old against championship teams:

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007: 22 ppg on 35%
Jordan vs. Celtics in 1986: 44 ppg on 51%

Btw, the 1986 Celtics had the #1 defense in the league.. This is a perfect comparison that you cannot refute one iota..

It's one of the cleanest measurements of MJ's superiority there is...

You almost had me fooled but... your age comparison, while technically accurate, isn't. (Jordan born early in February, LeBron just before the New Year in December makes this confusing tho, I'll grant you that.)

The more important stat is this: MJ has 3 years North Carolina experience... So that is equivalent to LeBron's growth during his first three NBA years... So where are they after that in that 4th year? LeBron is in the Finals, Jordan is losing to a forgettable Bucks team in round 1.

On the other hand, MJ played pretty well as can be expected in that round so how much that loss is on him is debatable... which is the whole point, the same courtesy should be applied to LeBron's losses...

As for year 5 Jordan vs. 2nd year with 3 yrs. college LBJ? Yeah, Jordan was historically great vs. those Celtics, while LeBron did something similar for at least one game (the final one) in a much more observably defensive series (I don't care who was #1 in the regular season, if they let MJ put up 63 the Celts did a bad job on him that series... but still won of course, it's a wacky era) ... Everybody talks about how poorly LeBron shot through the early part of the series -- 12 points in game 1 -- but his man, Pierce that year's FMVP, was doing the same -- 4 points in game 1, LBJ still wins ... LBJ gets within 1 win of knocking off the team that would win it all that year, better than MVP Kobe (closest thing to Jordan in that era) ... Maybe MJ would have won it all in 2008. I'm not saying he wouldn't, or that he isn't a little crucial bit better than Bron (that might prove to be the case), just that I don't think it's a stretch to say him and Bron are comparable at that age. Any respectful NBA fan should be able to give Bron that much.

I think it's more later on that Jordan will pull ahead with how amazingly graceful he aged.



MJ - he took a lottery team (coached by Doug Collins) to the ECF in 1989, where they went 6 games with the champion Bad Boys.

If Jordan can take the champion Bad Boys to 6, then he can easily beat the pathetic Hawks or the old, 53-win Pistons in 2007 (who no longer had Ben Wallace or a top team defense) - heck Lebron only needed to average 25 ppg on 43% to beat those Pistons!!!... That's worse than ANY playoff series in MJs career.


See, it's not that your dumb, it's that you an ***hole. ... Who just wants to see their side. ... Your bias completely blinds you to who you are talking about here, a Pistons team that only just a few years earlier was the league's best defensive team. Now, I'm not saying they still were, they didn't have Ben Wallace and anyway the Spurs were that year as the Finals proved, but they were still tough on the perimeter and LBJ was great you ***hole, don't try to take that away from him. ... MJ put up better scoring stats and still lost to teams sometimes... could just mean MJ was playing in a weaker era, could mean a lot of things, but however you wanna hack it, a freshly-22 yr. old LBJ was doing just fine at that age and the real question you should ask is whether the Jordan that couldn't get out of the 1st round could have in Bron's shoes with that roster beat those 2007 Spurs.. or how much better would he have done? And I don't think we can ever really know..

And then you randomly bring the Hawks into this when one second ago you were talking about 2007, now you're in 2015... wtf?!

I know what you're getting at, LBJ's 2015 Eastern conference win is overrated... Sure, okay, maybe. (That Bulls series was no joke tho.) But I could go through so many MJ years where his Bulls' rise was overrated, where he had better rosters than what Bron had in 2015 or even 2014 and of course 2010 and earlier... If Bron had a superteam every year in the East, and the East was really as weak as claimed to be every single year (it only is some years, like the upcoming 2016), I'd agree with all those complaining the East is weak is why Bron succeeds all the time. But the reality is, the situation hasn't always been ideal for Bron.

And Bron fans have achieved that victory if the number of people on this board alone who believe the rosters matter is any indication. People are starting to fight back against the "win no matter what" theory because it's b.s., always was, it's mythology, you gotta have the roster.



Clearly, MJ has the GOAT impact on bad teams (taking a lottery team to ECF and 6 games with world champs in 1989... also, MJ is the only player to ever lead a lottery team to 3-peat - even Russel's Celtics were conference finals the year before he got there)..

Well you're right about Russell and 3Ball I'll toss you a little gimme while we're on that subject... Jordan could have easily had 11 rings like Russell... Simply change the handcheck/physicality rules during the Pistons series so MJ gets the calls, don't play baseball and keep the Bulls together for one more year in 1999 ... Do the math, you'll see it comes out to 11 at least. (Maybe more but you gotta leave some room for error vs. Rockets.)

But now back to your b.s. ... The Bulls were not headed to lottery in 1989... where are you getting this? And how does a team that's been to back to back conference finals that then threepeats ... qualify as being a lottery team before threepeating? Are you going back to when Jordan first arrived with the team? Like... over 10 years, he took them from a lottery to a threepeat? I mean, if it takes that long, I'm not sure you can really call that a straight jump... If he'd threepeated by the end of 91 I'd be with you on this..

Anyway 3Ball... You got potential... You could be a contender... But I worry you are just :hammerhead: ...

[ZMonkey11]

Oh btw he started the year at 19 years old.

[superteamtheory]

So wait - your argument is that Lebron was 20 when he missed the playoffs, while MJ was 21 when he MADE the playoffs?

My argument is that you are an ***hole nitpicking what a 20 year old was doing... Jordan wasn't even in the league yet, I don't see how Bron's first three years are even relevant to comparisons to Jordan any more than Jordan's North Carolina career is relevant to these conversations (other than to observe what Jordan was doing with those three years)...



Thru 30 years old, MJ had 3 championships, 3 FMVP, while Lebron has 2 championships and 2 FMVP...


MJ has for the time being pulled ahead in terms of totals, yeah. ... Then if you consider Bron's bad fortunes in 2014&2015 vs. MJ's great ones (at least in 92 & 93), the case becomes less clear.

To anybody who isn't a Jordan or Kobe stan anyway. I know to guys like you, it's just win no matter what the circumstances. When even Jordan himself couldn't do that from 1988-1990.



And MJ's stats are FAR better.. Here are both players' playoff and Finals stats thru 30 years old:


Far better is a stretch. And again, the circumstances do play into all this. Granted, his assist numbers are better than I expected, maybe in part from him playing point for a while..



MJ's 1985-1990 rosters are recognized as being the most 1-man teams of all time.... That's why he faced the "Jordan Rules"... This is historical fact - Jordan's arduous ordeals as a 1-man team are well-documented.

I could post a million quotes from Bill Laimbeer, Isiah, Dumars, Chuck Daly, Rodman, Phil Jackson saying that the Bulls were a 1-man team in the 80's.. But that would be a waste of time - it would be like me posting quotes of people saying Westbrook is fast..

It's not my fault that you're ignorant about the basics of basketball history (i.e. that the 80's Bulls were the most 1-man team in history).


And it's not my fault you're an agenda-serving P.O.S. but hey, takes all kinds I guess...

I may be overstating the case a bit, yeah, in 88 and 89 ... Maybe Jordan never really had a shot there because Adrian Dantley is still there on the other side adding extra scoring punch... Maybe it was just a bit too much on the Pistons and the Bulls "simply ran out of talent"...

But as for your 2 stars 90's claims...

david robinson - tim duncan < after Jordan

shawn kemp - gary payton - detlef schrempf < Jordan is superior to Payton, Pippen's contributions will lessen the effects of peak Kemp, for every Schrempf there is a Kukoc ... this was a 2 star team this Sonics, with only 1 HOF player, so to me still more of a 1 star team

charles barkley - kevin johnson - dan majerle < you really believe KJ and Thunder Dan were stars? "allstars" maybe but great players? this team had Barkley he was the star. ... and anyway Jordan is superior by a bit to peak Barkley, for every KJ trying his hardest there is a Pippen punching the clock, sure they got Thunder Dan but Bulls got Horace Grant who eventually was an all-star...

john stockton - karl malone - hornacek < this one I agree with, this one is legit, but they were exceptions, most teams did not have 2 stars, on the other side... Jordan (superior to Malone), Stockton = Pippen, for every Hornacek a Kukoc or Rodman ... s

tim hardaway - alonzo mourning < alright, you got me there ... but again, Bulls had their 2 stars so it didn't matter and anyway Miami, Orlando and Utah were more so the anomalies

shaq - penny hardaway - horace grant < and the Bulls lost .. but then yeah, bounced back, dominated, that was kind of impressive yeah

shaq - kobe bryant - eddie jones - nick van exel < Kobe wasn't there yet, Eddie Jones is not a household name, Nick was pretty good in his youth but come on, you're reaching, this was a Shaq team

hakeem olajuwon - clyde drexler - charles barkley < Barkley is washed up, Hakeem and Drexler are on their way out too, the 95 Rockets tho were briefly a 2 star team that was on par with Pippen-Jordan but we never got to see it...

isiah thomas - joe dumars - dennis rodman < for one year, yeah

and these next ones just... no...
brad daughtery - mark price - larry nance (and Ron Harper)
jason kidd - jamal mashburn - jim jackson
chris webber - juwan howard - rod strickland

I'm surprised you didn't list Reggie Miller & Rik Smits.. That unstoppable force, Rik Smits..



Your post is factually inaccurate - ESPN pointed out that MJ played the FAR better competition:

Ah, ESPN, that most reliable and agenda-less of sources...

If anything that ESPN stat suggests Kobe Bryant was possibly a bit better than Jordan.

Which we all know is... no.

You gotta look at the matchups, that's all I'm saying. Round by round, you'll see what Bron was working with / up against vs. what Jordan was up against but working with...

Most other things are deceptive. (Stats are only somewhat meaningful.)

The one thing 3Ball that you do that I kinda like is the video analysis ... but you cherry pick a bit too much to emphasize moments when LeBron failed ... but in any case, the eye test and arguments about defensive differences is a much better argument IMO anyway than trying to act like rosters haven't played into Bron's lack of 1 or 2 rings.. or that Bron failed somehow that way.. or that MJ had comparable situations.. that's all just propaganda that you are way too kneedeep in to be able to get your head dislodged from...



Didn't have Pippen?... That means Lebron's championships don't count because he had Wade and Bosh.. For Lebron to win a championship, he needed a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option (Bosh), AND Dwayne Wade.

Calm.. down... All I meant was, the way y'all talk about Jordan, it's as if he did all this without the rosters, as if he took those 88-90 teams all the way... That was all I meant by he'd impress me more -- he'd impress me the way he impresses you guys -- if he did it without Pippen.

The way I see it now, he may be the GOAT but the distance between him and the others (Kobe, LBJ) is greatly exaggerated, at least so far..

[superteamtheory]

I played D1 with tons of NBA players.. Why watch when you can do

Ya ever played with LeBron?

Can't wait to see that.. make sure to post your analysis of him smacking the ball back in your face!

[PickernRoller]

Overrated player is overrated.

Water is wet...

[Hey Yo]

No different then MJ - he took a lottery team (coached by Doug Collins) to the ECF in 1989, where they went 6 games with the champion Bad Boys.

If Jordan can take the champion Bad Boys to 6, then he can easily beat the pathetic Hawks
1989, Game 5 ECF with series tied at 2. MJ in the clutch!!

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198905310DET.html

[BasedTom]

Meanwhile D-Wade was playing in the ECF :lol:

[3ball]

But now back to your b.s. ... The Bulls were not headed to lottery in 1989...

where are you getting this?


You misunderstood - WITHOUT Jordan in 1989, the 47-win, 6th seeded Bulls would've missed the playoffs and been a lottery team.. The cutoff to make it was 42 games.

Without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54% and DPOY-level defense, the Bulls wouldn't have won anywhere near 47 games, or the necessary 42 games.. I'm quite certain those GOAT stats (better than anything Lebron has ever done) are worth 5 games.

That's what I've been trying to explain to you.. MJ's goat stats only got the Bulls a frieking SIX seed... Whereas Lebron's inferior stats got his team a 2-seed and 50 wins in 2007 - that's how much weaker Lebron's era is.

Keep in mind - MJ did everything that year - he played PG for 24 games and averaged 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) on 52%, including a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games)





Jordan that couldn't get out of the 1st round could have in Bron's shoes with that roster beat those 2007 Spurs.. or how much better would he have done? And I don't think we can ever really know..


Every time you say the bolded above, you are saying the 1986 and 1987 Celtics = Gilbert Arenas Wizards (who Lebron played in the 1st round for 3 yrs in a row)..

I don't think you are dumb enough to think this - so you should probably stop being intellectually dishonest by saying it.





But I could go through so many MJ years where his Bulls' rise was overrated, where he had better rosters than what Bron had in 2015 or even 2014 and of course 2010 and earlier...


No you couldn't - do it, or stop lying.. MJ's 1985-1990 rosters are recognized as being the most 1-man teams of all time.... That's why he faced the "Jordan Rules"... This is historical fact - Jordan's arduous ordeals as a 1-man team are well-documented.

I could post a million quotes from Bill Laimbeer, Isiah, Dumars, Chuck Daly, Rodman, Phil Jackson saying that the Bulls were a 1-man team in the 80's.. But that would be a waste of time - it would be like me posting quotes of people saying Westbrook is fast..

It's not my fault that you're ignorant about the basics of basketball history (i.e. that the 80's Bulls were the most 1-man team in history).





If Bron had a superteam every year in the East, and the East was really as weak as claimed to be every single year (it only is some years, like the upcoming 2016), I'd agree with all those complaining the East is weak is why Bron succeeds all the time.


The last championship-level team in the East other than the Heat superteams was the 2010 Celtics.. Before that, it was the 2006 Pistons (that had RAPM leader, Ben Wallace, a rich man's Rodman).

And that's it - in Lebron's entire career.. Of course, he's only beaten seven 50-win teams in his entire playoff career, literally 1/3 of MJ:

http://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9lezeXPnksBqScKND55F1Ewuenk1HdMDpsFC_vpawj8.jpg





You gotta have a roster


Your team must have a record of improving under your leadership, which Lebron has never had, and never will have - he's already peaked with this team, just like he did in 2007..

His ball-dominant, athleticism-driven style doesn't foster growth in teammates, superior strategy, or an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play, so his teams never improve over the years to win a championship, LIKE MJ'S DID.

MJ's teams were eventually perceived as one of the NBA's "smart" teams that used the best strategy and had played the best brand of basketball, just like the Warriors, Mavericks and Spurs of today's game.. MJ's goat offensive sophistication enabled him to fit a goat scoring production seamlessly within an optimal, winning framework





See, it's not that your dumb, it's that you an ***hole. ... Who just wants to see their side. ...

they didn't have Ben Wallace and anyway the Spurs were that year as the Finals proved, but they were still tough on the perimeter and LBJ was great you ***hole, don't try to take that 2007 series against Detroit away from him.


Again, Lebron's 25 ppg on 43% would be the worst playoff series of MJ's career and it would have gotten MJ destroyed.. But Lebron's conference is so weak, it gets him to the Finals!

And it wasn't an upset - the Cavs had won 50 games for the 2 seed.. Detroit had won 53 games for the 1 seed.. Hardly juggernauts and hardley an upset.. Detroit was aging and had replaced heart-and-soul, RAPM leader Ben Wallace, with decrepit Chris Webber.

Whereas MJ took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in 1989 from the 6-seed (and 7 games in 1990), which is easily a better accomplishment than beating the old, 2007 Pistons from the 2-seed (with what would be the worst stats of MJ's playoff career)..

Here's statistical detail comparing MJ's 1989 playoff run to Lebron's in 2007 - MJ's run was easily the bigger overachievement - MJ took a lower-seeded team against teams with much better records and defensive rankings than Lebron's opponents, while putting up better stats:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=361889

[superteamtheory]

Before I start, I just wanna clear one thing...
When making comparisons between these two, these are the years to compare (since you seem to have trouble sticking with one to ones, here's a chart)...

2004 = North Carolina year 1
2005 = North Carolina year 2
2006 = North Carolina year 3
2007 = 1985
2008 = 1986
2009 = 1987
2010 = 1988
2011 = 1989
2012 = 1990
2013 = 1991
2014 = 1992
2015 = 1993
*
2016 = 1994 (hypothetical year if he didn't baseball)
*
2017 = 1995 (mix of hypothetical year / what happened when he came back)
2018 = 1996
2019 = 1997
2020 = 1998
2021 = 1999 (hypothetical if they kept Bulls together another year)


You misunderstood - WITHOUT Jordan in 1989, the 47-win, 6th seeded Bulls would've missed the playoffs and been a lottery team.. The cutoff to make it was 42 games.

Without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54% and DPOY-level defense, the Bulls wouldn't have won anywhere near 47 games, or the necessary 42 games.. I'm quite certain those GOAT stats (better than anything Lebron has ever done) are worth 5 games.

That's what I've been trying to explain to you.. MJ's goat stats only got the Bulls a frieking SIX seed... Whereas Lebron's inferior stats got his team a 2-seed and 50 wins in 2007 - that's how much weaker Lebron's era is.

Those stats are worth 5 games, I agree, MJ's presence on this team kept them from being a lottery team, I agree, the Bulls went from being mediocre-with-potential to super great in 5 years, I agree.

I would never phrase it the way you do tho that they went from the lottery to a threepeat -- for that to have happened they would have had to have actually done that OR at the least went from the potentially-lottery season straight into the threepeat with no growth inbetween.. but okay, whatever, inflate the mythology slightly, sure why not..

Also, most teams are a lottery team without their best player... and at the end of the day, while not MJ's fault, they didn't win the championship, proving the need for a superior roster.



Every time you say the bolded above, you are saying the 1986 and 1987 Celtics = Gilbert Arenas Wizards (who Lebron played in the 1st round for 3 yrs in a row)..

:facepalm

No. ... No. ... Because first of all, I'm comparing MJ's 4th year out of highschool, in which he loses to the Bucks, to LeBron's 4th year out of highschool, in which he beats the Pistons and loses to the Spurs at the finish line... I mean, if you'd like, we could leave the Pistons out of it and compare LBJ's first round matchup of Gilbert Arenas' Wizards to a Bucks team full of forgettables. Personally, I think Arenas and the Wiz are probably tougher. (And then there's Carter & Kidd..)

As for the NEXT year, 5 post-highschool vs. 5 post-highschool, I'm comparing
LBJ's 2008 campaign, in which he comes up less than a game short vs. eventual champion and great team (or you don't think so??) 2008 Celtics vs. MJ going up against, hopelessly I agree, Bird's peak Celtics. ... In that year, especially with how MJ played, I don't think we can say LeBron is doing better, but it might be a stretch to say Jordan is way ahead of him. ... I understand the 86 Celts could be great defensively but they weren't against Jordan if they let him get 63. ... I feel like the 08 series was more reliably defensive with Bron and Pierce eventually wearing each other down so their defence slips and they go off in the final game..



No you couldn't - do it, or stop lying.. MJ's 1985-1990 rosters are recognized as being the most 1-man teams of all time.... That's why he faced the "Jordan Rules"... This is historical fact - Jordan's arduous ordeals as a 1-man team are well-documented.

I'm not looking just at those years... After 91, 92 and onward he never comes up against a comparable roster again. (Maybe his loss in 95.) ... Making up for lost time vs. Pistons & Celtics maybe? It all evens out somehow? I might accept that argument if you're talking about Jordan's 85-88 years during which there are reasonable excuses. By 89, with the improvement to Pippen, they had enough to pull off the upset over the deeper Pistons roster -- maybe the Pistons' over the top physical play is an excuse then, as well as in 1990. (By 1990, Pippen was ballin, it wasn't a one man team at that point, he had a legit sidekick.)

I think the early parts of LBJ and MJ's careers (2007-2010 and 85-88) are fairly comparable far as rosters/playoff matchups/wins/expectations etc. ... after, LeBron briefly (2011-2012) is in a better situation at that age then Jordan is at his (1989-1990) but then the reverse becomes true (2014-2015 vs. 1992-1993) quickly after...

And as far as stats go, this is the only one I really need 3Ball... the rest is all relative...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e1/e2/ed/e1e2eda2d7d05cdfa41720f416049e13.jpg

[3ball]

When making comparisons between these two, these are the years to compare - here's a chart


So we can't compare what MJ did at 25 years old to what Lebron did at 25 years old, because it doesn't match up to your chart?.. GTFO

Here's both players' performances at 22 years old against championship teams:

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007: 22 ppg on 35%
Jordan vs. Celtics in 1986: 44 ppg on 51%

This is one of the cleanest measurements of MJ's superiority there is.. Btw, the 1986 Celtics had the #1 defense in the league.





(MJ's 33/8/8) are worth 5 games, I agree - MJ's presence on the 1989 Bulls kept them from being a lottery team, I agree


Okay great - all I needed was your agreement that the 1989 Bulls were lottery without MJ - because that means MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs, just like Lebron did in 2015.

Btw, MJ's impact was even more than that - going into the 1990 season, instead of being lottery without MJ, the Bulls were ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting a 3-peat.. THAT'S the goat impact: lottery vs. 1 season away from starting 3-peat.. Lebron can't do that.

So there you have it, case closed - MJ has the same impact as Lebron on bad teams.. And on good teams, everyone knows MJ's impact was GOAT - the Bulls fell from 3-peat champs to 2nd Round in 1994 without MJ, which is the biggest fall in history when a star player leaves the team.





I think LBJ's 2007-2010 rosters are fairly comparable to MJ's 1985-1988


Ridiculous - just look at the stats - Lebron's averaged 30/7/9 on 50% in 2010, which won his team 61 games.

MJ got 33/8/8 on 54% in 1989, but this superior production only garnered 47 wins - this can only be due to weaker supporting cast and superior competition.. There is no way to refute this.

MJ's entire team was extremely young and unreliable in 1989.. Pippen was a 2nd year player who averaged 14/6/3 as Jordan's 2nd option.

Otoh, Lebron's entire team were seasoned veterans, including all-star Mo Williams (16/5a) and Antawn Jamison (16/8r) - both superior to 2nd year Pippen's 14/6.. Along with Mo Williams and Jamison, the Cavs had veterans Delonte, Shaq, Hickson, Zydrunas, and Varejao - these guys were seasoned vets and far superior to the caliber of support that MJ had in 1989.. It's not even close..





(By 1990, Pippen was ballin, it wasn't a one man team at that point, he had a legit sidekick.)


In 1990, Pippen averaged 16/6/3 on 42% against Detroit in 1990 ECF (same as his RS stats), including his famous choke in Game 7, where he disappeared altogether with 2 points on 1-10 shooting.

Here's Laimbeer talking about Pippen's impact in 1990:


"We didn't even think about Pippen.. It was Jordan and the Jordannaires, and you can't win with just 1 player like that."

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367912





I would never phrase it the way you do tho that they went from the lottery to a threepeat -- for that to have happened they would have had to went from the lottery straight into the threepeat.


The same Bulls team in 1988 that you say was horrible, was the exact same roster that won the championship in 1991..

So regardless of how long it took, MJ is the only player in history to turn a team from lottery to 3-peat champions - even Bill Russell didn't do that (his Celtics were conference finals the year before he got there).





while not MJ's fault, they didn't win the championship, proving the need for a superior roster


Again, they didn't need a superior roster - they just needed their existing roster to IMPROVE - their 1988 roster was identical to the one that won championship in 1991.. Only MJ's team improved so much under his leadership.

Otoh, Lebron's teams don't improve under his leadership - he's already peaked with this team, just like he did in 2007..

His ball-dominant, athleticism-driven style doesn't foster growth in teammates, superior strategy, or an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play, so his teams never improve over the years to win a championship, LIKE MJ'S DID.

MJ's teams were eventually perceived as one of the NBA's "smart" teams that used the best strategy and had played the best brand of basketball, just like the Warriors, Mavericks and Spurs of today's game.. MJ's goat offensive sophistication enabled him to fit a goat scoring production seamlessly within an optimal, winning framework.





Personally, I think Arenas and the Wiz are probably tougher than the 1985 Bucks were


What a joke.. Gilbert Arenas Wizards were 42-40 with the league's #22 defense.

The 1985 Bucks were the best team the Bucks ever had in their history - they won 59 games as a 2-seed, they had the #2 defense in the league, and reigning DPOY Sidney Moncrief..

MJ averaged 29/6/9 on 58% true shooting in his first playoff series against these Bucks and the DPOY - that's the GOAT performance for anyone in their very first playoff series.





I understand the 86 Celts could be great defensively but they weren'tagainst Jordan if they let him get 63


When the GOAT scorer gets buckets in a GOAT fashion against the #1 defense, it's because he's the GOAT scorer, not because the #1 defense in the league is somehow not really the #1 defense.







http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-19-2015/KRhFa2.gif


I feel like the 08 series was more reliably defensive with Bron and Pierce eventually wearing each other down so their defence slips and they go off in the final game..



WTF - if their defense slips, then it isn't as reliable.

MJ didn't need the Celtics to wear down - he dropped 49 points in Game 1 to put them on notice... Then in Game 2, when the Celtics were hell-bent on stopping a repeat performance, MJ breaks the scoring record in their building.

Btw, part of the reason the Celtics were the #1 defense in the league is specifically because they stretched the limits of allowable paint-camping (see Bill Walton above) - the Celtic defenders were habitual paint-campers.

This is no surprise - a primary characteristic of the best teams has always been their superior acumen and strategy, which includes the ability to interpret and stretch the limits of the existing rule structure better than other teams (see the Spurs, Warriors, Mavs).







And as far as stats go, this is the only one I really need 3Ball... the rest is all relative...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e1/e2/ed/e1e2eda2d7d05cdfa41720f416049e13.jpg
^^^^^^^^ the dumbest argument ever

35/5/5 Games
Jordan: 34
James: 17

40/5/5 Games
Jordan: 17
James: 8

45/5/5 Games
Jordan: 10
James: 5

50/5/5 Games
Jordan: 2
James: 0

55/5/5 Games
Jordan: 2
James: 0

60/5/5 Games
Jordan: 1
James: 0

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2013/02/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

[aj1987]

3ball, honestly kid, I'll ask my friends to help you for free. They will. NY/LA/CHI. Seriously, dude. You NEED to contact a shrink. They're among the best in those place, BTW.

EDIT: Detroit and Miami as well.

[3ball]

3ball, honestly kid, I'll ask my friends to help you for free. They will. NY/LA/CHI. Seriously, dude. You NEED to contact a shrink. They're among the best in those place, BTW.

EDIT: Detroit and Miami as well.
you can't even admit Lebron is nowhere near MJ, despite all the evidence staring you in the face.

i'm sure your friends would tell you - that's called denial

[aj1987]

you can't even admit Lebron is nowhere near MJ, despite all the evidence staring you in the face.

i'm sure your friends would tell you - that's called denial
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

I have MJ as the GOAT and LeBron at ~8-10. You, OTOH are OBSESSED with LeBron.

Honestly, I can hook you up with shrinks in those areas. Please, dude. Get some help.

[3ball]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

I have MJ as the GOAT and LeBron at ~8-10. You, OTOH are OBSESSED with LeBron.

Honestly, I can hook you up with shrinks in those areas. Please, dude. Get some help.
I understand this is you being mad and lashing out because my arguments are fact and logic-based and annoyingly irrefutable.

Carry on my friend

[Trollsmasher]

Hey 3ball, what do you think about the following

194-198

I want a direct answer, lad

[superteamtheory]

I'll only reply to a few things, since most of what your spewing is biased, delusional garbage at this point...

- LBJ isn't done yet and scoring stats aren't everything and nobody is gonna argue or is arguing Jordan wasn't the greatest scorer.

- You don't think Phil Jackson (not to mention 10 years experience together) had anything to do with them eventually being regarded as one of the smartest / most functional teams?

- LBJ could put up similar numbers in that Bucks series. Not so much with the Celtics, there Jordan's scoring prowess is on display.

- This lottery to threepeat thing you're talking about is utter garbage mythology you are spinning to inflate their accomplishment. It wasn't the same team because guys got significantly better from where they were at the start and they all got more experienced. If you take a team literally from the lottery and within one or two seasons (a la Duncan with Spurs 1st win) win... and then threepeat... then that would be it. ... But whatever I mean, this is getting silly, I'm sitting here, you're telling me GOAT impact! GOAT impact! meanwhile I have MJ as GOAT anyway and am not disputing that. I just think Bron's not as far off as you believe. And that some of the other stuff you're saying is b.s.

-
as of jan 1st:

LBJ:
when he just turned 19 he's in nba year 1 (2003 last day of year so let's say 2004)
when he just turned 20 he's in nba year 2 (2005)
when he's just turned 21 he's in nab year 3 (2006)
when he just turned 22 he's in nba year 4 (2007)

MJ...
just turned 19 (feburary bday) he's in NC year 1 (1982)
20 nc year 2 (1983)
21 nc year 3 (1984)
22 nba year 1

You're just plain lining up the years wrong. It's easy for you to fix it. But you won't because, well, we've already been over why. :banghead:

- That Celtics video... is that Danny Ainge he's schooling there? Where's the help? All he has to do is blow by Ainge and trick layup around Walton... I mean easier said than done but not for MJ... Is that the famous 80's-90's defence I hear so much about? No wonder he dropped 63...

[funnystuff]

Shaw, Dwight, Gasol, Grant, Malone, and Bynum.
:roll: :roll:

[funnystuff]

3Ball single handily making Jordan fans the most hated on the forum. Impressive. TheMan also contributes.

[3ball]

Is that the famous 80's-90's defence I hear so much about?



Which defense is harder to score on?


Option A) Against Iggy with all 4 help defenders on weakside and furthest to help on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif



Option B) Against Rodman with all 4 help defenders on strongside and closest to help on strongside action:


http://i.imgur.com/k5NhDI9.gif


Weakside spacing leaves the strongside with fewer defenders (1st GIF), which necessitates the flooding of defenders BACK TO the strongside - this is how strongside floods originated.

Otoh, without weakside spacing (seen in 2nd GIF), defenders just remained on the strongside and closest to help on strongside action.. With defenders staying on strongside, the strongside was already flooded with all 5 defenders (5-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21), which is stark contrast from today's weakside spacing and resulting 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570)).
.

[ShawkFactory]

Guess what the 90s Bulls and today's warriors, Mavericks, and Spurs have in common? Is it a coincidence that the three teams you listed have the three best coaches in the NBA?? They were a smart team because they had one of the best coaches ever.

And Michaels GOAT scoring skillset was framed into a winning team with the strong aid of said coach

[3ball]

This lottery to threepeat thing you're talking about is utter garbage


Both players led teams that were lottery without them (1989 Bulls and 2015 Cavs), to 6 games with the champs.

However, it's obvious that NEITHER player can take a lottery team to championship in just 1 season.

But in Lebron's case, he can't do it AT ALL - he's never built a lottery team into a champion, whereas MJ has.... and he didn't just build A champion.. he built two 3-peat dynasties.





It wasn't the same team because guys got significantly better from where they were at the start and they all got more experienced.


Again, neither player can take a lottery team to champion in 1 season - but at least MJ's teams improve under his leadership, so a lottery team can EVENTUALLY win a ring... Otoh, Lebron's teams simply don't improve under his leadership.

Lebron's current Cavs team has already peaked early, just like his previous Cavs did in 2007.. His ball-dominant, athleticism-driven style doesn't foster growth in teammates, superior strategy, or an optimal brand of basketball, so his teams never improve over the years to win a championship, LIKE MJ'S DID.

MJ's teams were eventually perceived as one of the NBA's "smart" teams that used the best strategy and had played the best brand of basketball, just like the Warriors, Mavericks and Spurs of today's game.. MJ's goat offensive sophistication enabled him to fit a goat scoring production seamlessly within an optimal, winning framework.





scoring stats aren't everything and nobody is gonna argue or is arguing Jordan wasn't the greatest scorer.


Jordan's 10 more ppg in the Finals is worth more than Lebron's 2-3 extra rebounds... That's why the whole "b-b-but Lebron leads his team in pts, rebs, assists" is garbage.

All of these fans would INSTANTLY exchange a few extra defensive rebounds for 10 more ppg... Or in these latest Finals, they would trade Lebron's 13 rebounds for 8 rebounds and 10% better efficiency (50% vs. 40%).





You don't think Phil Jackson (not to mention 10 years experience together) had anything to do with them eventually being regarded as one of the smartest / most functional teams?


To win a championship using the triangle, you need the best post player in the game, or very close to it - first it was MJ.... then Shaq... then Kobe/Pau.

And the post players must be quick decision-makers on the post.

But Lebron only posts up 8.6% of the time, which is bottom of the league... His post PPP and FG% are 85th and 125th respectively:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1

The reality is that Lebron is not a post player - he's a ball-dominating point guard.. The stats show that Lebron and Harden are the only non-point guards that dominate the ball as much or more than starting point guards.

But the triangle doesn't use a point guard or allow point-guard-level ball-domination.. If Lebron were on the Bulls, he'd bolt as soon as he found out he wouldn't get to play point guard anymore, like he has since he was in junior high.





as of jan 1st:

LBJ:

MJ..
just turned 19 (feburary bday) he's in NC year 1 (1982)


Who cares about a few MONTHS difference in age?.. So we can't compare guys because of a few months?

You don't really believe that - but it helps you avoid the truth about MJ's vast superiority - a superiority that is best shown by looking at what both players did as 22 year old against championship teams:

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007: 22 ppg on 35%
Jordan vs. Celtics in 1986: 44 ppg on 51%

This is one of the cleanest measurements of MJ's superiority there is.. Btw, the 1986 Celtics had the #1 defense in the league.






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/MDO9KZ.gif


That Celtics video... All he has to do is blow by Ainge and trick layup around Walton



Actually, Jordan DOESN'T blow by Ainge there - Ainge is playing that Gordon Hayward defense (shown above)..

But unlike Lebron, Jordan has too many moves, quickness and FEETwork, so he still scores.







http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-19-2015/KRhFa2.gif


Is that the famous 80's and 90's defense I hear about?



Indeed, Walton is legally paint-camping the entire time - paint-camping means Walton is WAITING for Jordan in the paint.

But paint-camping is banned under the current rules.

Accordingly, Lebron has never faced defenders WAITING in the paint for him (except in 2004 before the rule changes, when his stats as a bright, young rookie were far worse than any other season of his career, even worse than 40-year old, decrepit MJ in 2003).

[Hey Yo]

Originally posted by 3ball
Accordingly, Lebron has never faced defenders WAITING in the paint for him (except in 2004 before the rule changes, when his stats as a bright, young rookie were far worse than any other season of his career, even worse than 40-year old, decrepit MJ).

April 01, 2001|By Sam Smith.

"The subject was defense in the NBA, and Michael Jordan was speaking, although more about offense, especially his. We know few defenses could do anything about that.

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba

[3ball]

What if MJ had to face an actual zone defense


MJ was POY in college over bigs like Hakeem, Ewing and others where a true zone was allowed.. Otoh, today's game does not allow true zone because zone isn't allowed AT ALL inside the paint.. Inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area, defenders have to remain within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man (about 3 feet) at all times.

Otoh, defenders in previous eras were allowed to stay in the paint when their man was far out of armslength - Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to stand in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere in the paint, or within 3 feet of either side.

To summarize - defenders in today's game aren't allowed to stand in the paint when there's no one else around, while previous era defenders could.


http://i.imgur.com/rW270Q6.gif


Notice Speights on baseline, left of the rim - ideally, he'd be waiting under the rim the whole time to contest Lebron.. But today's defensive 3 seconds rule doesn't allow defenders to wait in the 16 x 19 foot painted area if no one is within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) (about 3 feet).. So Speights has walk to AWAY from the rim to remain within armslength of his man, which prevents him from contesting Lebron.

Otoh, in previous eras, Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere inside the paint, or within 3 feet or either side.. So in the clip above, Speights would've been waiting under the rim to contest Lebron and force him into a tougher shot.





When MJ has to face an actual zone defense where players can immediately leave their man and stop the driving lanes


However, to your point about zoning, defenders ARE allowed to zone outside the paint - but only outside the paint..

And the tradeoff is the aforementioned paint-camping ban - big men are forced to come OUT of their wheelhouse (the paint) to contest guards in THEIR wheelhouse, the perimeter.. Even Austin Rivers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374490) can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims.

Of course, previous eras shaded heavily in screen-roll situations too (seen below) - MJ destroyed these situations, but he had to pull-up for more jumpers, because the paint was not open after the screen roll like it is with today's spacing - in MJ's day, after the screen-roll, the paint would still be crowded because there was no spacing to draw everyone to the perimeter:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8.
.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Big-Z, Larry Hughes and Donyell Marshall.

No excuses.

That is quite obviously the strongest supporting cast in history.

LeBron James sucks at basketball, if he couldn't win a ring with the most stacked supporting cast in NBA history then you know he's horrible.

[3ball]

April 01, 2001|By Sam Smith.

Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.


Look at the date of your article - MJ said this in 2001, when he thought the NBA was about to allow a pure, 100% zone, like what he faced in college when he was Player of the Year over Hakeem and won the national championship in hero fashion over Ewing.

But new rules were instituted in 2005 that banned zone in the paint and all paint-camping, along with a ban on hand-checking and physicality.

Not surprisingly, once he saw the new rules in 2005, he said he could score 100 points under the new rules:

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/2010/10/michael-jordan-if-i-played-today-i-could-have-scored-100-points/

“It’s less physical and the rules have changed, obviously,” said Jordan. “Based on these rules, if I had to play with my style of play, I’m pretty sure I would have fouled out or I would have been at the free throw line pretty often and I could have scored 100 points.”

[superteamtheory]

Who cares about a few MONTHS difference in age?.. So we can't compare guys because of a few months?.

What is so wrong with a simple year to year / exact age comparison (which only seems fair)... why are you having so much trouble with this? I could be like you and say it's because you know it will make LeBron look better and you don't want that..

But I know the real reason is something else, which is that you're just a mofo..

But fine, let's do it your way...Okay, so 2009 Bron then... vs. 87 Jordan... because Jordan being a few months younger don't mattter... LeBron's final round he's averaging 38.5, 8, 8, 1 and 1 vs. Jordan's final round he is averaging 35.5, 7, 6, 2 and 2 ... But hey, I guess Jordan is still infinitely greater...

Yet another example: you are seriously thinking LeBron's 19 year old stats vs. Jordan's old age stats prove something. If anything I would expect Jordan to be better with all that experience vs. LeBron's lack thereof as a teenager..

Also, I hope you are writing a royalty cheque to the NBA every time you use that Jazz game clip.. I mean it's only fair what with you using that one clip so much to stand in for all LeBron plays..

I could also ask if you would rather face a camped Bill Walton or Dwight Howard at the rim but I won't because I really don't give a flying **** what you think about that one..

[Trollsmasher]

Hey 3ball, what do you think about the following

194-198

I want a direct answer, lad

[3ball]

I could also ask if you would rather face a camped Bill Walton or Dwight Howard at the rim


Are you mentally slow?... I'm being dead serious - Dwight Howard wasn't ALLOWED to camp at the rim - paint-camping was banned in 2005..

That's the whole point - Bill Walton could paint-camp, while Dwight could not... jfc - I hate wasting time due to people stupidity.

It's amazing that you keep arguing for Lebron - you don't really think MJ is better than him.. It's amazing..

Lebron can't even play 1-on-1 or shoot 40% while getting the MOST isolations of all time, and the MOST SECLUDED isolations of all time (see post #121 at top of page).





Also, I hope you are writing a royalty cheque to the NBA every time you use that Jazz game clip..


Everyone knows Lebron struggles to get by his man because he lacks burst and moves... So why dispute it?... Did you even watch the Finals - here, refresh your memory - these are just from from Game 1:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398





you are seriously thinking LeBron's 19 year old stats vs. Jordan's old age stats prove something.


One guy is 40 years old with a small fraction of his prior athleticism.. The other guy is full of youthful athleticism, but inexperienced...

I'd say it evens itself out... The unreasonable stance is your biased stance - that it DOESN'T even itself out.





Ok, fine, lets' do it your way


Great - here's "my way" - compare both players at 22 years old against championship teams and #1 defenses:

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007: 22 ppg on 35%
Jordan vs. Celtics in 1986: 44 ppg on 51%

This is one of the cleanest measurements of MJ's superiority there is.. That's "my way" that you requested.
.

[Hey Yo]

Look at the date of your article - MJ said this in 2001, when he thought the NBA was about to allow a pure, 100% zone, like what he faced in college when he was Player of the Year over Hakeem and won the national championship in hero fashion over Ewing.

But new rules were instituted in 2005 that banned zone in the paint and all paint-camping, along with a ban on hand-checking and physicality.

Not surprisingly, once he saw the new rules in 2005, he said he could score 100 points under the new rules:

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/2010/10/michael-jordan-if-i-played-today-i-could-have-scored-100-points/

“It’s less physical and the rules have changed, obviously,” said Jordan. “Based on these rules, if I had to play with my style of play, I’m pretty sure I would have fouled out or I would have been at the free throw line pretty often and I could have scored 100 points.”
So now you're going to speak for MJ and tell us what he was thinking?

:lol

Not strange to you that they didn't implement any part of it in order to comply with his pleas?

[KNOW1EDGE]

This is one of the worst troll threads to make it 9 pages.

Why do people even bother?

[3ball]

So now you're going to speak for MJ and tell us what he was thinking?


No, I just report what he said in 2010:


“It’s less physical and the rules have changed, obviously,” said Jordan. “Based on these rules, if I had to play with my style of play, I’m pretty sure I would have fouled out or I would have been at the free throw line pretty often and I could have scored 100 points.”

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/2010/10/mi...ed-100-points/

[Hey Yo]

No, I just report what he said in 2010:


“It’s less physical and the rules have changed, obviously,” said Jordan. “Based on these rules, if I had to play with my style of play, I’m pretty sure I would have fouled out or I would have been at the free throw line pretty often and I could have scored 100 points.”

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/2010/10/mi...ed-100-points/
Wait....you mean old MJ said something 9yrs later that would have made him look better in the past?

:eek: :eek:

:roll:

[3ball]

Wait....you mean old MJ said something 9yrs later that would have made him look better in the past?


That was the first time he'd ever commented on the 2005 rules.

When he made the comment you reference in 2001, that was before the paint-camping ban and hand-check ban... Naturally, it makes sense that he'd provide new comments about these new rules (comments which are echoed by many, btw).

Are you really surprised he said he'd score 100 points if there was no hand-checking or paint-camping, when he was the goat scorer WITH these things?... C'mon.. it makes perfect sense.

[SpecialQue]

This is one of the worst troll threads to make it 9 pages.

Why do people even bother?

This one's pretty bad, but I've seen worse.

[nzahir]

Only 42-40?... Despite having an all-star center that gets 17/9 with 2.1 blocks?

In the weakest conference of all time?.. How does that compare to MJ getting the exact same record, WITHOUT any all-stars in a tougher conference?



Zydrunas averaged 2.1 blocks per game.

Before he declined around 2008-2009, Z was known as a good shot-blocker (obviously) and a very good 1-on-1 post defender.. He played Shaq as well as anyone.. His good defense on Shaq was mentioned all the time.



WTF?

Lebron's 2nd option was all-star Zydrunas Illgauskas, remember?... The all-star center that averaged 17/9 with 2.1 blocks?.. That's the entire point of the thread - where do you get off lying and saying his 2nd option was someone else?

As for MJ, he never had an all-star center as his 2nd option or anything CLOSE to that early in his career.. It's common knowledge that MJ's early Bulls teams were the most 1-man team in history.. People forget this because his run at the top lasted so long.



Statistical anomaly - they happen.. The Bulls still had the 8th best record in the toughest conference of all time - that's all that matters.

One thing to remember - there were only 10 teams in the conference... A 10-team conference with 2 championship level teams (Pistons, Celtics) is much tougher than a 15 team conference with 2 championship level teams.

The Bulls had to play the Celtics and Pistons 6 times each every season, compared to 3 times per season today.



Anytime you say 1-9 without Pippen, you are saying the 1986 and 1987 Celtics = Gilbert Arenas Wizards (who Lebron played in the first round for 3 straight years).

By repeating something false over and over (that Arenas' Wizards = Bird's Celtics) that makes you a liar or dumb, or both.

Also, even after Pippen became an all-star, every single Bulls team required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the GOAT scorer (while still having equal assists as Lebron) - this proves MJ had the least help of all time - no other team required this of their star (only MJ was required to be the GOAT scorer and get Lebron-level assists).

People like to say that Lebron gets 2-3 more defensive rebounds per game - a couple extra defensive rebounds doesn't compare to MJ scoring 10 ppg more in the Finals or 6 ppg more in the playoffs.
.
Do you have a small brain? I said outside of big z, yet you dont quote that part(obviously).
Lebron top 3 all time, 1-9 jordan