Why is Jordan's 1996 finals celebrated, and LeBron's 2015 finals not?

[mehyaM24]

so because lebron had a worse team that was decimated with injuries, we should ignore his insane production?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2015/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996/

~36/13/9 on 40%fg. nearly a triple-double playing the warriors single-highhandedly at times.

otoh, jordan averaged ~27/5/4 on 41%fg. worse all-around numbers, play, and scoring (his best attribute). but he's praised for being a "killer" with an "assassins mentality".

why is there a double standard here?

[Yoda]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/59871212.jpg

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The game is played beyond what you see on the stat-sheet. LeBron's jumper and defense was f*ckin horrid in the finals.

[mehyaM24]

^^^^^ jordan's stats and scoring accolades are always praised here - but now all of the sudden stats don't mean anything? :rolleyes:

[LoneyROY7]

Your arguments are really f*cking bad. And I think Jordan is a massive f*ggot.

[Droid101]

"Insane production" that any swingman type player could have bested with that many touches, easily.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1854144-lebron-james-says-he-could-score-60-70-points-if-he-got-37-shots-in-a-game


“If you give me 37 shots in a game, I’d have 60...70,” LeBron said, per ESPN's Tom Haberstroh.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/michael-jordan-laugh.gif

[JellyBean]

If you gotta ask a silly question like that, you don't understand the game of basketball.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The game is played beyond what you see on the stat-sheet.

bran fans refuse to accept this

[9erempiree]

so because lebron had a worse team that was decimated with injuries, we should ignore his insane production?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2015/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996/

~36/13/9 on 40%fg. nearly a triple-double playing the warriors single-highhandedly at times.

otoh, jordan averaged ~27/5/4 on 41%fg. worse all-around numbers, play, and scoring (his best attribute). but he's praised for being a "killer" with an "assassins mentality".

why is there a double standard here?

You just look at stat sheets. In terms of impact, MJ raised a trophy and Lebron continues his losing way in the Finals.

[TheMarkMadsen]

"Insane production" that any swingman type player could have bested with that many touches, easily.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1854144-lebron-james-says-he-could-score-60-70-points-if-he-got-37-shots-in-a-game



http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/michael-jordan-laugh.gif

then he takes 35 shots per game in a series and averages 36

:roll: :roll:

[GrapeApe]

Since when are performances in losses ever "celebrated"? Since when is sub 40% shooting ever "celebrated"?

[Inferno]

Because his man held him to shitty shooting (low 30%'s, IIRC), and won the FMVP :confusedshrug: LeBron was great, but he couldn't do shit outside like 5 feet

[Magic 32]

"The only stats that matters are winning stats" - Charley Rosen

[DMAVS41]

Well, reality is probably just because Jordan won and Lebron didn't.

It might not be fair, but that answers your question.

Also, it's a bit unfair of a comparison because MJ's back was never against the wall in the finals.

The Bulls were up 3-0 in that series and definitely kind of just "relaxed" in games 4 and 5 imo.

With Lebron, his back was against the wall...and while he had a very good series overall....his scoring efficiency was really poor given the circumstances if single coverage most of the series.

Just really not a good comparison imo. Just so different circumstances in terms of being up 3-0 in a series and what just happened in the finals.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I've never heard MJ's 1996 Finals be "celebrated." He won, and had a good series, but that's about it.

[GimmeThat]

so because lebron had a worse team that was decimated with injuries, we should ignore his insane production?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2015/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1996/

~36/13/9 on 40%fg. nearly a triple-double playing the warriors single-highhandedly at times.

otoh, jordan averaged ~27/5/4 on 41%fg. worse all-around numbers, play, and scoring (his best attribute). but he's praised for being a "killer" with an "assassins mentality".

why is there a double standard here?

Do rankings(school) matters?

You would probably be surprised by how many veterans who just completely ignores their coach.

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't think I've ever head anyone "celebrate" Jordan's '96 Finals. It was the only Finals he was merely mortal in, and a lot of people think Rodman should have won Finals MVP

[Natureland]

How much is Jordan's '96 Finals really "celebrated" though? You get that one Game 3 evisceration that gets touted but other than that I see "Rodman should have won FMVP" or "Payton shut him down" narratives emerging from that series more than I see any real MJ praise.

[livinglegend]

Because Jordan had more stacked teammates.
Give Lebron Baldan's teammates and give baldan Lebron's teammates, everyone would celebrate Lebron instead of Jordan.

Objectively, 2015 Lebron finals > 1996 Jordan finals

[mehyaM24]

How much is Jordan's '96 Finals really "celebrated" though? You get that one Game 3 evisceration that gets touted but other than that I see "Rodman should have won FMVP" or "Payton shut him down" narratives emerging from that series more than I see any real MJ praise.

that illustrates my point. certain posters give jordan max credit despite his teammates arguably being more valuable than he was (payton shut him down in that series, i made a thread months back on it). the "6/6" stuff get touted as some crazy feat, while 2/6 and being a "loser" is spammed here ad nauseum.

ring counting is silly. fact is lebron was better than jordan last finals. a lot better.




Because Jordan had more stacked teammates.
Give Lebron Baldan's teammates and give baldan Lebron's teammates, everyone would celebrate Lebron instead of Jordan.

Objectively, 2015 Lebron finals > 1996 Jordan finals

exactly.

had lebron played like jordan, people would rip him for being "passive". the hypocrisy is real.

[Magic 32]

had lebron played like jordan, people would rip him for being "passive". the hypocrisy is real.


Passive?

31, 5, 5, 46% shooting in first 3 games/wins.

Series was over after that.

[mehyaM24]

Passive?

31, 5, 5, 46% shooting in first 3 games.

Series was over at that.

the series went 6 games. not 3.

unless you think that series was the best of 5, no, jordan shot ~41% from the field. not that far off from lebron who's volume completely eclipsed his.

[Magic 32]

the series went 6 games. not 3.

unless you think that series was the best of 5, no, jordan shot ~41% from the field. not that far off from lebron who's volume completely eclipsed his.

3-0 is all you need.

Series is basically over.

Jordan showed up at the right time, then his teammates took it home in game 6.

Where was Lebron in game 4 and 6?

Where was he at the end of game 1,2, 5 and 6?

The Cavs should have won the first 3 games.

[mehyaM24]

3-0 is all you need.

but the series went 6 games. not 3.

your comparison is a false equivalency :confusedshrug:

[Droid101]

3-0 is all you need.

Series is basically over.

No team has ever come back from 3-0, so yes, series over. Clearly Bulls weren't trying anymore which is why it took a few more games.

branstans are furious.

[mehyaM24]

No team has ever come back from 3-0, so yes, series over. Clearly Bulls weren't trying anymore which is why it took a few more games.

branstans are furious.

that doesn't even make sense. the bulls threw away the last 2 games because "they felt like it"?

spoken like a dweeb behind a keyboard. :oldlol:

[Magic 32]

threw away the last 2 games because "they felt like it"?


That would explain 2011.

[Blue&Orange]

that illustrates my point. certain posters give jordan max credit despite his teammates arguably being more valuable than he was (payton shut him down in that series, i made a thread months back on it). the "6/6" stuff get touted as some crazy feat, while 2/6 and being a "loser" is spammed here ad nauseum.

ring counting is silly. fact is lebron was better than jordan last finals. a lot better.


You are so dumb.

[Smoke117]

Passive?

31, 5, 5, 46% shooting in first 3 games/wins.

Series was over after that.

And Payton didn't switch onto him till half way through game 3...where he was then locked up by a pg...pathetic. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Angel Face]

Only a dumb idiot would celebrate Lebron's 2015 Finals, 38%fg on single coverage leading to 2/6.

Anyways, Jordan's 1996 finals, considered not so good series for his standards was still better than most of Lebron's finals series. Fact.

[Droid101]

that doesn't even make sense. the bulls threw away the last 2 games because "they felt like it"?

spoken like a dweeb behind a keyboard. :oldlol:
Every post you make is spoken like a 13 year old who started watching basketball in 2011.

Future neg.

[Magic 32]

And Payton didn't switch onto him till half way through game 3...where he was then locked up by a pg...pathetic. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Better than being outscored...

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/jet3.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

And Payton didn't switch onto him till half way through game 3...where he was then locked up by a pg...pathetic. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Lol, it's not like it was any "PG", Payton is one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time, even won DPOY that year

[mehyaM24]

Every post you make is spoken like a 13 year old who started watching basketball in 2011.

Future neg.

is that supposed to hurt my feelings? :rolleyes:

seriously, "feels like it" and "not trying" are 2 of the dumbest answers to jordan being shut-down i've ever read. congrats on not knowing anything about the topic. :oldlol:

[Droid101]

is that supposed to hurt my feelings? :rolleyes:

Nope. But since you're admitting it, this fact certainly calls any type of credibility you think you have into question.

Hold this L

[tpols]

And Payton didn't switch onto him till half way through game 3...where he was then locked up by a pg...pathetic. :roll: :roll: :roll:

uh.. too little, too late. Jordan applied the pressure when it was necessary. And that run is nothing more than icing on the cake.. not the foundation. Brons last Finals, while a valiant effort at first to try and drag the game to a crawl and even get a series lead out of it was ultimately unsustainable since his jumper was so broke.. and he wasn't facing a prime GP, rather an old out of prime iggy who previous to the series had been pretty much unheard of all season production/impact wise. :rolleyes:

[G0ATbe]

"Why don't we celebrate losing?":facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[mehyaM24]

Lol, it's not like it was any "PG", Payton is one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time, even won DPOY that year

payton was a defensive maestro, but still, jordan got shut-down to the likes we haven't seen in ANY of his finals performances. the closest was back vs the knicks in 93 who completely thrashed him outside of his 55 point game. the heat did a pretty good job on him in 97 as well.

but again, that's been my point all along. why does jordan's series and 6/6 stuff get spammed here incessantly as if he was some perfect cyborg in the finals, individually. lebron outplayed him by all objective measures last year yet he's still labeled a "2/6 loser".

[Asukal]

Because Jordan had more stacked teammates.
Give Lebron Baldan's teammates and give baldan Lebron's teammates, everyone would celebrate Lebron instead of Jordan.

Objectively, 2015 Lebron finals > 1996 Jordan finals

Replace MJ with lebaldo in 96 and GP wins FMVP. :rolleyes:

[SouBeachTalents]

payton was a defensive maestro, but still, jordan got shut-down to the likes we haven't seen in ANY of his finals performances. the closest was back vs the knicks in 93 who completely thrashed him outside of his 55 point game. the heat did a pretty good job on him in 97 as well.

but again, that's been my point all along. why does jordan's series and 6/6 stuff get spammed here incessantly as if he was some perfect cyborg in the finals, individually. lebron outplayed him by all objective measures last year yet he's still labeled a "2/6 loser".

Jordan had what, 3-4 legitimately bad games in 6 Finals, that's pretty damn indicative of how great he was. How many bad Finals games has LeBron had? Hell, how many bad Finals has LeBron had?

[mehyaM24]

Jordan had what, 2 legitimately bad games in 6 Finals, that's pretty damn indicative of how great he was. How many bad Finals games has LeBron had? Hell, how many bad Finals has LeBron had?

how many bad finals games did lebron have this past series vs golden state? because that's the comparison here.
so, with nearly a 30 point triple-double average, i'm curious as to which games he really played awful in.

[livinglegend]

Jordan had what, 3-4 legitimately bad games in 6 Finals, that's pretty damn indicative of how great he was. How many bad Finals games has LeBron had? Hell, how many bad Finals has LeBron had?

you are going off topic.
He was talking about 96 and 2015.

[Asukal]

how many bad finals games did lebron have this past series vs golden state? because that's the comparison here.
so, with nearly a 30 point triple-double average, i'm curious as to which games he really played awful in.

He had 1 or 2 bad games but what's more important is he wasn't a closer. When crunch time came, he couldn't do shit. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Why is Jordan's 1996 finals celebrated, and LeBron's 2015 finals not?


Lebron's 2015 Finals isn't celebrated for the same reason that many of MJ's playoff series weren't celebrated, even though he put up the best stats in the series: because he LOST those series.

Otoh, MJ gets celebrated when he WINS a playoff series while putting up the best stats of anyone in the series (i.e. 1996 Finals, 1991 Finals, or any playoff series he was ever in).

Anyone can get stats for the purpose of getting stats, but it takes an entirely different level of ability to get those same stats while using an approach that can actually win.





MJ had worse all-around numbers, play, and scoring


That's where you're wrong - MJ played better than Lebron - MJ's style allowed his team to employ a superior brand of basketball - that's why they could win 72 games, while Lebron with Love and Kyrie healthy all year only won 52.

Also, the game played differently in 1996.

You couldn't clear out the strongside by forcing defenders to guard 3-point shooters on the far weakside, because those 3-point shooters didn't exist.

Consequently, MJ didn't get nearly as many isolations as Lebron got against Atlanta and Golden State.

And when MJ did get isolations, there were no shooters spreading the floor on the weakside - defenders could stay on the strongside and consequently, were closer to help on strongside action - compare the difference between the defense Lebron faced, and the defense MJ faced - night and day:

Warrior's defense on Lebron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ
Sonics' defense on Jordan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw





Give Lebron Baldan's teammates and give baldan Lebron's teammates, everyone would celebrate Lebron instead of Jordan.


Not unless he averaged 36/6/8 on 53% in the Finals like MJ did thru 30 years old (his first 3-peat), instead of Lebron's 26/6/7 on 44% career Finals averages...

See, that's where your argument falls down - for your statement to be true, Lebron would have to put up FAR better stats than he has put up thus far -

He'd have to put up the exact same stats as MJ, and he's simply a LONG way off from that:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381330
.

[livinglegend]

3-0 is all you need.

Series is basically over.

Jordan showed up at the right time, then his teammates took it home in game 6.

Where was Lebron in game 4 and 6?

Where was he at the end of game 1,2, 5 and 6?

The Cavs should have won the first 3 games.

The series was 3-0, but Lebron had better stats after 3 games and it wasn't 3-0. It just shows how stacked the bulls were.
And don't forget, in game 3, Payton switched on Jordan.
That's why his stats slipped. Not because ''it was over''. :lol

[Magic 32]

how many bad finals games did lebron have this past series vs golden state? because that's the comparison here.
so, with nearly a 30 point triple-double average, i'm curious as to which games he really played awful in.

Game 4 and 6 and every 4th qtr.

[livinglegend]

Not unless he averaged 36/6/8 on 53% in the Finals, instead of 26/6/7 on 44%...

See, that's where your argument falls down - for your statement to be true, Lebron would have to put up FAR better stats than he has put up thus far.

Off-topic.
We are only talking about 2015 and 1996.


next

[livinglegend]

Game 4 and 6 and every 4th qtr.

lie

[mehyaM24]

Game 4 and 6 and every 4th qtr.

his 4th quarters were great in games 1 & 3, but notice all you have is one game?

again, you guys are making my point for me. lebron honestly had ONE bad game in this series, yet we're gonna sit here and give jordan more credit for winning a ring because his team was better? :roll:

[Blue&Orange]

how many bad finals games did lebron have this past series vs golden state? because that's the comparison here.
so, with nearly a 30 point triple-double average, i'm curious as to which games he really played awful in.
terrible efficiency, statpadding with innocuous no impact rebound and assists, disappearing from the game after Curry cross him over, have his coach bench Mozgov who had a great game but that led to Lebron having less point and assists, have his coach keep Curry being double teamed when it was obvious it wasn't working, and even, EVEN after the series was over, just so Lebron would had a chance at FMVP.

Here have fun dumb *******.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380294


That's why he is 2/6 and lost fmvp too two SF role players in a row.

:roll:
:roll:

[Smoke117]

uh.. too little, too late. Jordan applied the pressure when it was necessary. And that run is nothing more than icing on the cake.. not the foundation. Brons last Finals, while a valiant effort at first to try and drag the game to a crawl and even get a series lead out of it was ultimately unsustainable since his jumper was so broke.. and he wasn't facing a prime GP, rather an old out of prime iggy who previous to the series had been pretty much unheard of all season production/impact wise. :rolleyes:

Hilarious how many people think I was making a serious response...it's the summer, come on man.

[mehyaM24]

terrible efficiency, statpadding with innocuous no impact rebound and assists, disappearing from the game after Curry cross him over, have his coach bench Mozgov who had a great game but that led to Lebron having less point and assists, have his coach keep Curry being double teamed when it was obvious it wasn't working, and even after the series was over, just so Lebron would had a chance at FMVP.

Here have fun dumb *******.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=380294


That's why he is 2/6 and lost fmvp too two SF role players in a row.

:roll:
:roll:




No g

:oldlol: at this low iq ape. so according to you idiots lebron was "garbage" in 4th quarters, but still managed to stat-pad his way to a 30 point triple-double the first 3 quarters????

lmao

[livinglegend]

:oldlol: at this low iq ape. so according to you idiots lebron was "garbage" in 4th quarters, but still managed to stat-pad his way to a 30 point triple-double the first 3 quarters????

lmao
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Magic 32]

his 4th quarters were great in games 1 & 3, but notice all you have is one game?

I had 2 games.

And again, all the 4th qtrs.

G1 last 10 minutes of the game = 2-8 FG (and one of those shots were statpadding BS). So 1-7

G3 4th = 3-8 FG (and a crapload of FT's)

And he almost lost big leads in both.

Meh

[mehyaM24]

I had 2 games.

And again, all the 4th qtrs.

G1 last 10 minutes of the game = 2-8 FG (and one of those shots were statpadding BS). So

G3 4th = 3-8 FG (and a crapload of FT's)

An almost lost big leads in both.

Meh

his 4th quarter in game 2 was better than in game 1. not sure what you're talking about. again, this stat-padding nonsense holds no weight when most of these games were close throughout.

lebron had ONE bad game realistically, 2 according to you, but still less than jordan had vs payton's sonics. :confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

his 4th quarter in game 2 was better than game 1, so i'm not really sure what you're talking about. this stat-padding stuff holds no weight when most of these games were close throughout.

he had 1 bad game, 2 according to you, but still less than jordan had vs payton's sonics. :confusedshrug:

Jordan had 2 bad games in the '96 Finals, Games 4 & 6

[mehyaM24]

Jordan had 2 bad games in the '96 Finals, Games 4 & 6

9/22 fg with less production all-around in game 2 isn't holding him to the same standards though, is it?

if we're counting that game, it's 3. clearly.

[SouBeachTalents]

9/22 fg with less production all-around in game 2 isn't holding him to the same standards though, is it?

if we're counting that game, it's 3. clearly.

29/6/8 on 41% is an ok game, but yes, I'd say LeBron's '15 Finals > Jordan's '96 Finals

[mehyaM24]

29/6/8 on 41% is an ok game, but yes, I'd say LeBron's '15 Finals > Jordan's '96 Finals

it is. but under this comparison, its just not as good as most of lebron's games.

thank you for being objective though. rare sight on here. :applause:

[Magic 32]

his 4th quarter in game 2 was better than in game 1.

YOU picked game 1.

I can do game 2 if you want to. He was even worse in fact.



not sure what you're talking about. again, this stat-padding nonsense holds no weight when most of these games were close throughout.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxN5ahX3s3A&t=6m35s

Outside of that layup he was 1-7 in the last 10 minutes. So a bad 4th and OT. Very bad.

[riseagainst]

this thread is hilarious.

:lol

http://38.media.tumblr.com/ebc48f507c8945b81cb2c7ee00196e2a/tumblr_mgzm7qeUjl1qgx4b2o2_250.gif

[Asukal]

:oldlol: at this low iq ape. so according to you idiots lebron was "garbage" in 4th quarters, but still managed to stat-pad his way to a 30 point triple-double the first 3 quarters????

lmao

Taking 33 shots and can't play off the ball? Tell us again how great lechoke is. :rolleyes:

[mehyaM24]

Taking 33 shots and can't play off the ball? Tell us again how great lechoke is. :rolleyes:

better than 96 jordan in the finals, which you can't objectively argue against.

:confusedshrug:

[Asukal]

better than 96 jordan in the finals, which you can't objectively argue against.

:confusedshrug:

Sure. I'll give the edge to lebron but only because Jordan missed a lot of open pull ups in that 96 series. Defense wise, Jordan by a mile. :rolleyes:

It's really funny that you compare Jordan's worst vs Lebron's best. Ultimately, jordan's 96 is celebrated because they won. Lebron while statistically great gave fmvp to a role player, didn't show up in crunch time, and declares he is the best in the world then loses. :oldlol:

[mehyaM24]

Sure. I'll give the edge to lebron

"lechoke" having a better finals than jordan? maybe he's not so bad after all? :confusedshrug:


It's really funny that you compare Jordan's worst vs Lebron's best.

lebron's had 2 other finals better, or just as good tbf

[diamenz]

nt, op. it was a nt.

[mehyaM24]

nt, op. it was a nt.

what was? you guys act like i'm saying anything remotely nonobjective.

lebron's 2015 finals were objectively better than jordan's 1996 finals.

lebron also has at least 2 better finals (arguably) than in 2015. 2014 & 2012 are ones that come to mind. with his game 7 performance, you could put 2013 in that mix too.

[Soundwave]

Losers don't get celebrated.

[mehyaM24]

Losers don't get celebrated.

jordan lost more than he won (6/15) so what's your point? :confusedshrug:

[jstern]

Lebron's performance is actually celebrated. And I don't particular see a lot of people praising Jordan's 1996 performance, since he's had so many others that were completely dominant.

Lebron's performance is actually celebrated, but not as much here on ish. Like someone else said, he team didn't win. And no matter how much he was carrying on his shoulders, losing by nature doesn't get celebrated.

Also, Lebron was having trouble getting off a shot in the final minutes. Due to fatigue, and not having the offensive game of a Jordan.

[diamenz]

what was? you guys act like i'm saying anything remotely nonobjective.

lebron's 2015 finals were objectively better than jordan's 1996 finals.

lebron also has at least 2 better finals (arguably) than in 2015. 2014 & 2012 are ones that come to mind. with his game 7 performance, you could put 2013 in that mix too.

it's the middle of summer.

go outside.

you're bad.

[mehyaM24]

it's the middle of summer.

go outside.

you're bad.

my first time in weeks logging on here & talking hoops.

thanks for caring though. :cheers:

[diamenz]

my first time in weeks logging on here & talking hoops.

thanks for caring though. :cheers:

where? i don't see it anywhere.

[mehyaM24]

where? i don't see it anywhere.
anything to add here, or are you just gonna throw around one-liners and ad-hominems? i don't think i've ever seen you post here outside the threads i create. kinda lame.

[diamenz]

anything to add here, or are you just gonna throw around one-liners and ad-hominems? i don't think i've ever seen you post here outside the threads i create. kinda lame.

i just stay on par with the quality of the forum man. douche on, brother.

[3ball]

anything to add here, or are you just gonna throw around one-liners and ad-hominems? i don't think i've ever seen you post here outside the threads i create. kinda lame.
MJ had the best stats of anyone in the 1996 Finals - that's all you can ask for because every series is different and plays differently.

The bottom line - MJ had the best stats of anyone in the 1996 Finals, and his team WON, while Lebron had the best stats of anyone in the 2015 Finals, but his team LOST..

Think about it this way - Love and Kyrie were healthy for the entire regular season, which gave the Cavs more talent than the 1996 Bulls - so why didn't the Cavs win 72 games (why only 52)?... Because Lebron's style doesn't allow his teams to play as well as MJ's teams.. Period.

[mehyaM24]

MJ had the best stats of anyone in the 1996 Finals - that's all you can ask for because every series is different and plays differently.

The bottom line - MJ had the best stats of anyone in the 1996 Finals, and his team WON, while Lebron had the best stats of anyone in the 2015 Finals, but his team LOST..

Think about it this way - Love and Kyrie were healthy for the entire regular season, which gave the Cavs more talent than the 1996 Bulls - so why didn't the Cavs win 72 games (why only 52)?... Because Lebron's style doesn't allow his teams to play as well as MJ's teams.. Period.

i would agree with you if we didn't already see lebron, straight out of highschool, take a team to the finals without another all-star caliber player.

otoh, it wasn't until pippen became an all-star caliber player and was drafted that jordan won his first playoff series. does that take away from jordan? no - he's still one of the best scorers ever, but when it comes to impacting the all-around game, lebron has him beat there.

[plowking]

When Gary Payton was on Jordan that series, he held him to worse shooting than Iggy did Bron.

Just a heads up is all.

[SouBeachTalents]

MJ had the best stats of anyone in the 1996 Finals - that's all you can ask for because every series is different and plays differently.

The bottom line - MJ had the best stats of anyone in the 1996 Finals, and his team WON, while Lebron had the best stats of anyone in the 2015 Finals, but his team LOST..

Think about it this way - Love and Kyrie were healthy for the entire regular season, which gave the Cavs more talent than the 1996 Bulls - so why didn't the Cavs win 72 games (why only 52)?... Because Lebron's style doesn't allow his teams to play as well as MJ's teams.. Period.

:biggums:

Pippen > Kyrie
Rodman > Love
Kukoc > J.R.
Phil > Blatt

[Kobe_6/8]

Jordan won, and LeBron lost. Nobody cares about a losing effort, no matter how impressive it may seem.

[nba_55]

When Gary Payton was on Jordan that series, he held him to worse shooting than Iggy did Bron.

Just a heads up is all.
:lebronamazed:

[nba_55]

Jordan won, and LeBron lost. Nobody cares about a losing effort, no matter how impressive it may seem.

Bulls won and Cavaliers lost, OP is talking about their individual performances.

[Rose'sACL]

Gary Payton locked Jordan worse than iggy guarded lebron.

This is before we even compare Jordan and lebron's supporting cast in those finals.

Lebron's 2015 finals> Jordan's 96 finals > Kobe's 2010 finals.

[chazzy]

Jordan: 53.8 TS%
Lebron: 47.7 TS%

[nba_55]

Jordan: 53.8 TS%
Lebron: 47.7 TS%

Lebron: 36/13/9
Jordan: 27/5/4

[3ball]

Kukoc > J.R.


JR Smith > Kukucs... Kukoc has never averaged 18/8 in any playoff series like JR Smith just did..

Also, the stats give JR the edge - JR is 13/3/2 on 42% and 37% from three, while Kukocs is 12/4/4 on 45% and 33.5% from 3.





Rodman > Love


Love > 35 year-old Rodman.. It's not just the argument-ending statistical advantage that Love has, but 35 year-old Rodman was the caliber of player that still routinely disappeared and was non-productive, as in, AT ALL.

Rodman averaged 3 ppg and 7 rpg for the entire 1997 playoffs and the same in the 1998 Finals.. No matter how bad Love plays - he'll never play that bad for even 1 game, let alone an entire series or playoffs..

Love is just a different caliber player than 35-year old Rodman, who was a specialist.. More of an unskilled offensive player and fouler, and capable of completely disappearing for 2 of 3 playoff runs with MJ (3 ppg and 7 rpg in 1997 playoffs and same in 1998 Finals).

[sekachu]

but the series went 6 games. not 3.

your comparison is a false equivalency :confusedshrug:





Ever heard of any teams losing in the final when they are up to 3-0 lead in nba? Are you confused or just ignore the fact?

[sekachu]

The series was 3-0, but Lebron had better stats after 3 games and it wasn't 3-0. It just shows how stacked the bulls were.
And don't forget, in game 3, Payton switched on Jordan.
That's why his stats slipped. Not because ''it was over''. :lol




Do you research, Jordan was 11-23 which is 47% in game 3. The series is over. No team in nba history coming back from 0-3 down.

[SexSymbol]

Jordan won and was good defensively
LeBron lost, was terrible defensively, was too selfish and was terrible in the clutch

[sekachu]

Gary Payton locked Jordan worse than iggy guarded lebron.

This is before we even compare Jordan and lebron's supporting cast in those finals.

Lebron's 2015 finals> Jordan's 96 finals > Kobe's 2010 finals.



Payton guarded him well but MJ focus was off in game 4 obviously. He wasn't being aggressive like lebron and he wasn't being single coverage like lebron. The myth that lebron could get 60 points if he was given 35 shots a games is exposed.

[sportjames23]

You just look at stat sheets. In terms of impact, MJ raised a trophy and Lebron continues his losing way in the Finals.


When 9erempiree can make you look more stupid than you already are, it's time for you to ban yourself.

[mehyaM24]

Ever heard of any teams losing in the final when they are up to 3-0 lead in nba? Are you confused or just ignore the fact?

and yet, in actuality, the series was over 3 games afterward.

i don't understand this 'series was over' nonsense. its nice to say in hindsight, but we've seen plenty of teams come back from a 3-0 deficit and make it a competitive series (in other sports, coming back to win the whole thing). that is exactly what seattle did, so unless you think the finals is a best of 5 series, you guys better think of another excuse.

[MP.Trey]

Because who celebrates losses?

[mehyaM24]

Because who celebrates losses?

teams celebrate championships, but jordan's series in itself shouldn't be praised. he was shut-down by gary payton for half the series - completely eviscerated by a midget.

[superteamtheory]

OP,

I see what you're getting at and feel some of your pain (I'm guessing like me you are somebody who feels Jordan jockers' bias overlook things to keep their mythology spotless, whereas LBJ defenders never have their case heard fairly)...

but there is no meaningful comparison between 1996 and 2015, man..

the meaningful comparison is 1993 and 2015 , when Jordan and Bron are roughly the same age ... Jordan comes out with 1 ring more than Bron, while Bron has 1 more MVP, so it's a draw to this point, Bron does not seem to have dethroned MJ ... but when you look closer, all is not as it seems...

MJ + Pippen + Grant > Barkley + KJ & Thunderdan ... Suns never had a shot
MJ + Pippen + Grant > Ewing + X-Man & Starks ... Knicks never had a shot but went 7 games and lost with an injured Ewing
vs.
LBJ + reliable sidekicks for 3 games < Curry + Iggy + Klay + depth (Bogut, Green, Barbosa, etc.)
LBJ + reliable sidekicks for 2 games < Duncan + Parker & Gino + Kawhi + depth (shooters like Green, etc.)

MJ had back to back roster advantages (even if slight) while LBJ had back to back hopeless scenarios ... The reason this is so hard for the doubters to accept is simple: They are sadistic a-holes and/or delusional about wanting to believe that there are superhuman players who can do anything to win... is not never was true, except for maybe one game here or there..

[smoovegittar]

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. And the "memories" of some fools make liars of us all.

If you're under the age of thirty, you don't remember the real greatness of Jordan. It's like some of these stupid "Wilt" posts. Yeah we ALL remember...

:no:

[mehyaM24]

OP,

I see what you're getting at and feel some of your pain (I'm guessing like me you are somebody who feels Jordan jockers' bias overlook things to keep their mythology spotless, whereas LBJ defenders never have their case heard fairly)...

but there is no meaningful comparison between 1996 and 2015, man..

the meaningful comparison is 1993 and 2015 , when Jordan and Bron are roughly the same age ... Jordan comes out with 1 ring more than Bron, while Bron has 1 more MVP, so it's a draw to this point, Bron does not seem to have dethroned MJ ... but when you look closer, all is not as it seems...

MJ + Pippen + Grant > Barkley + KJ & Thunderdan ... Suns never had a shot
MJ + Pippen + Grant > Ewing + X-Man & Starks ... Knicks never had a shot but went 7 games and lost with an injured Ewing
vs.
LBJ + reliable sidekicks for 3 games < Curry + Iggy + Klay + depth (Bogut, Green, Barbosa, etc.)
LBJ + reliable sidekicks for 2 games < Duncan + Parker & Gino + Kawhi + depth (shooters like Green, etc.)

MJ had back to back roster advantages (even if slight) while LBJ had back to back hopeless scenarios ... The reason this is so hard for the doubters to accept is simple: They are sadistic a-holes and/or delusional about wanting to believe that there are superhuman players who can do anything to win... is not never was true, except for maybe one game here or there..

i think lebron played an ATG series when you take into consideration that his best players were hurt and DNP - but mj's series in 1993 was better. lets not get carried away here.

your point about bias & mythology with the jordan fanbase is spot-on though. +1

[Asukal]

Oh poor lebronski always so unfortunate..... NOT! :oldlol: :lol :roll:

That's what you get for taking shortcuts and colluding you POS! :lol :oldlol: :roll:

[Da_Realist]

Yeah, it was great watching Lebron struggle to beat one-on-one coverage, miss layups and wide open jumpshots, stand around the 3 point line on the few occasions he wasn't pounding the ball in the ground, completely disappear in the 4th quarters and whine about how tired he was after taking a 3rd of the season off just "because" and having 2 weeks off before the Finals.

The summary of his series: pound, pound, pound, clank, clank, clank.

Only Golden State fans would want to look at that series again. Ugly. I see why Lebron fans spend more time watching basketball-reference than basketball.

MJ wishes Seattle played him like GS played Lebron. It was a man's game in 96.

[superteamtheory]

i think lebron played an ATG series when you take into consideration that his best players were hurt and DNP - but mj's series in 1993 was better. lets not get carried away here.

your point about bias & mythology with the jordan fanbase is spot-on though. +1

first, thanks, appreciate it.

yeah sorry dude, right after posting i thought... ehh, i should have mentioned something about Jordan's 40 ppg in 93 tho. even with the advantages, that's still impressive and if Bron could have matched his shooting %, then we'd have an even greater case here that they share the same DNA..

and i agree LBJ's 2015 was outstanding and those complaining about his very nearly .400% are missing the point.. i watched his whole playoffs every step of the way -- he was already exhausted by the Hawks series, the team's roster was already faltering from injury, I didn't think he had any more in him after his game 1 of the Finals, thought that was his last big punch, then he somehow got better for the next 2 games.. and still had something in the tank for that game 5 -- where Curry finally grew up and threw the knockout.. I don't see how anybody can put 2015 on LBJ, if anything give the Warriors' credit for not choking down the stretch..

[branslowski]

http://oi59.tinypic.com/bg9pvd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZZKU24N.jpg


Game 1: 18/38 44 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists, 20 missed shots
Game 2: 11/35 39 points, 16 rebounds, 11 assists, 24 missed shots
Game 3: 14/34 40 points, 12 rebounds, 8 assists, 20 missed shots
Game 4: 7/22 20 points, 12 rebounds, 8 assists, 15 missed shots
Game 5: 15/34 40 points, 14 rebounds, 11 assists, 19 missed shots
Game 6: 13/33 32 points, 18 rebounds, 9 assists, 20 missed shots

1 missed shot away from 5 games with 20+ misses. And the other game he shot 31.8%


:lebroncry:

[sportjames23]

http://oi59.tinypic.com/bg9pvd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZZKU24N.jpg



:lebroncry:


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[superteamtheory]

Yeah, it was great watching Lebron struggle to beat one-on-one coverage, miss layups and wide open jumpshots, stand around the 3 point line on the few occasions he wasn't pounding the ball in the ground, completely disappear in the 4th quarters and whine about how tired he was after taking a 3rd of the season off just "because" and having 2 weeks off before the Finals.

The summary of his series: pound, pound, pound, clank, clank, clank.

Only Golden State fans would want to look at that series again. Ugly. I see why Lebron fans spend more time watching basketball-reference than basketball.

MJ wishes Seattle played him like GS played Lebron. It was a man's game in 96.

I agree, MJ's era was manlier, so he's a failure then for going 1-3 vs. Pistons even tho he probably had the better roster.

But more to your point... I hear ya, I dunno if people are saying Bron played a perfect series, which let's face it is what you haters need -- a literally perfect series before you'll even begin to give credit...

What other options did Bron have with that roster? It was one of the weakest to ever be in the Finals, there were very little options offensively once Kyrie went out, they got a brief defensive lift from Delly to even the playing field but then even that fell through... J.R. was inconsistent, Shumpert is a limited player, Mozgov was ineffective even when scoring because of the small ball factor, Kevin Love might have been the perfect wingman for this sort of series because it gives Bron a reliable dish/bailout but they had no Love...

So OF COURSE he's gonna pound the ball, take some bad shots, shoot a lot and not always the best, he really doesn't have much to work with. ... You can talk single coverage all you want but Iggy did a really good job on him (Payton did a good job on MJ in 96 -- shooting struggles happen, it can be part of the game) and so he was contained -- just 30+ a game with near triple double stats, just the best player on the floor every night, that's all...

At the end of the day they don't lose the series because of Bron, they lose because 1) J.R. is MIA down the stretch in game 4 -- costs them one possible win to go up 3-1 2) in game 5, Warriors were just a bit better, both teams played great, was a tossup and 3) by game 6, exhaustion really was the issue and that's when your depth has to carry you but the Cavs have none whereas Dubs do and 4) David Blatt failed to come up with any genius coaching changes, whereas Kerr made some right calls..

But whatever, I know this is all meaningless to you folks because Jordan had stacked odds in a weak 1 star era and that's all that it takes to be A Man.. whereas a real underdog like LBJ will get no credit for battling..

[comerb]

^^^^^ jordan's stats and scoring accolades are always praised here - but now all of the sudden stats don't mean anything? :rolleyes:

Jordan wins. Stats don't mean much if you lose.

[Blue&Orange]

i don't understand this 'series was over' nonsense. its nice to say in hindsight, but we've seen plenty of teams come back from a 3-0 deficit
:facepalm

You're a member of this exclusive club of really really dumb delusional ph@gots completely out of touch with reality, that keep getting owned time after time, left and right, but like the dumb delusional ph@gots that you are keep coming up with the same garbage.

Keep up with you dumb delusional ph@got circle jerk while the rest of the sane world laughs at you.


Wanna know a fact, i gave you very detailed and specific reasons why Lebron is a fraud, his performance was a fraud, he is a statpaded loser, your answer was ZERO, you had NOTHING, "but.bu.bu herp derp look at the boxscore, herp derp bu-bu-bu".

Now STFU biatch

[mehyaM24]

first, thanks, appreciate it.

yeah sorry dude, right after posting i thought... ehh, i should have mentioned something about Jordan's 40 ppg in 93 tho. even with the advantages, that's still impressive and if Bron could have matched his shooting %, then we'd have an even greater case here that they share the same DNA..

and i agree LBJ's 2015 was outstanding and those complaining about his very nearly .400% are missing the point.. i watched his whole playoffs every step of the way -- he was already exhausted by the Hawks series, the team's roster was already faltering from injury, I didn't think he had any more in him after his game 1 of the Finals, thought that was his last big punch, then he somehow got better for the next 2 games.. and still had something in the tank for that game 5 -- where Curry finally grew up and threw the knockout.. I don't see how anybody can put 2015 on LBJ, if anything give the Warriors' credit for not choking down the stretch..

post more often. your knowledge of the game is up to par :cheers:

its like i said during the finals: without lebron, this cavs team wouldn't even sniff the playoffs, and with him, they beat one of the best teams in NBA history twice and had and opportunity to make it 3, with a game 7 had other cavs players stepped it up. while I don't think its a consensus, i think there's a decent argument for it being one of the best series since shaq's 2002 finals - and up there with his 2014 and 2012 performances.

like jerry west, lebron should have been awarded fmvp IMO - which speaks to his greatness

[Bandito]

it is. but under this comparison, its just not as good as most of lebron's games.

thank you for being objective though. rare sight on here. :applause:
Being objective is agreeing with you now?:lol

How much of a moron this guy is!!?..



Reminds me of ******being:oldlol:

[tpols]

I agree, MJ's era was manlier, so he's a failure then for going 1-3 vs. Pistons even tho he probably had the better roster.

But more to your point... I hear ya, I dunno if people are saying Bron played a perfect series, which let's face it is what you haters need -- a literally perfect series before you'll even begin to give credit...

What other options did Bron have with that roster? It was one of the weakest to ever be in the Finals, there were very little options offensively once Kyrie went out, they got a brief defensive lift from Delly to even the playing field but then even that fell through... J.R. was inconsistent, Shumpert is a limited player, Mozgov was ineffective even when scoring because of the small ball factor, Kevin Love might have been the perfect wingman for this sort of series because it gives Bron a reliable dish/bailout but they had no Love...

So OF COURSE he's gonna pound the ball, take some bad shots, shoot a lot and not always the best, he really doesn't have much to work with. ... You can talk single coverage all you want but Iggy did a really good job on him (Payton did a good job on MJ in 96 -- shooting struggles happen, it can be part of the game) and so he was contained -- just 30+ a game with near triple double stats, just the best player on the floor every night, that's all...

At the end of the day they don't lose the series because of Bron, they lose because 1) J.R. is MIA down the stretch in game 4 -- costs them one possible win to go up 3-1 2) in game 5, Warriors were just a bit better, both teams played great, was a tossup and 3) by game 6, exhaustion really was the issue and that's when your depth has to carry you but the Cavs have none whereas Dubs do and 4) David Blatt failed to come up with any genius coaching changes, whereas Kerr made some right calls..

But whatever, I know this is all meaningless to you folks because Jordan had stacked odds in a weak 1 star era and that's all that it takes to be A Man.. whereas a real underdog like LBJ will get no credit for battling..

They didn't lose because of Lebron.. he gave a valiant effort, but the point is MJ could've done more given the circumstances. MJ isn't missing 70+% of his jumpers and seeing single coverage.. mozzy and Tristan Thompson were already dominating their matchups while having men on them, imagine being freed up even more because MJ would require a hard double everytime.. mj very well could've won with that cast.. breeze through the east, and go HAM in the Finals. He also isn't having a 20 point game 4 while being able to sense blood and go for the kill on GS. I think cavs would've won in 6.

[sekachu]

and yet, in actuality, the series was over 3 games afterward.

i don't understand this 'series was over' nonsense. its nice to say in hindsight, but we've seen plenty of teams come back from a 3-0 deficit and make it a competitive series (in other sports, coming back to win the whole thing). that is exactly what seattle did, so unless you think the finals is a best of 5 series, you guys better think of another excuse.



How laughable when you talk about excuse. It looks like you are the one who using absurd excuse. What kind of nonsense theory is that as you stated there were 3 more games after the bulls up to 3-0 lead? No teams ever come back from 0-3 down which is a fact apply in nba and this is still validity until now.

[tpols]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ[/url]
Defense in 1996 Finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw

Jordan's off ball posting skill is amazing in that video..

[3ball]

Jordan's off ball posting skill is amazing in that video..
look at the physicality MJ had to deal with.

look how much more HECTIC and FRANTIC everything is because the lack of spacing/defenders in closer proximity meant there was no time to wait around.

seriously - take a REAL LOOK and compare the footage from 1996 to the footage from the 2015 Finals.. Night and day... the 2015 footage shows everyone standing around, because the spacing ALLOWS it.
.

[3ball]

Yeah, it was great watching Lebron struggle to beat one-on-one coverage, miss layups and wide open jumpshots, stand around the 3 point line on the few occasions he wasn't pounding the ball in the ground, completely disappear in the 4th quarters and whine about how tired he was after taking a 3rd of the season off just "because" and having 2 weeks off before the Finals.

The summary of his series: pound, pound, pound, clank, clank, clank.

Only Golden State fans would want to look at that series again. Ugly. I see why Lebron fans spend more time watching basketball-reference than basketball.



Exactly - I would say "Fugly" is the only way to describe Lebron's bumbling and stumbling his way to the basket (because he lacks the sufficient burst and moves to get by his man):


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/XIjX_w.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/P5Zone.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/I7p0lg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/xUCd0U.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-05-2015/CU5j5S.gif

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan won, even though that's by far his worst Finals performance. That's why it's celebrated. He wasn't good, terrible by his all-time best Finals standards but his game 3 performance on the road basically sealed the win on the series.

It's Mike's worst performance in a Finals series, but it's still better than Kobe, and LeBron's worst Finals series. MJ's '96 > Bron '07, '11 and Kobe's '00, '04, and '08.

LeBron's performance was kind of fool's gold. He was very good, never great. But he shot really poorly, against a defensive strategy that saw him face one defender consistently, being dared to beat them by scoring. And he grossly underperformed in important games in game 4, and game 6 @ home.

[sd3035]

OP gettin killed in here

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Beastmode88]

What was his 3 point shooting like in the 2015 finals? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

If only Seattle played MJ like GS played Lebron.


Exactly - incessant double-teaming - facilitated by no-spacing.. The best defensive teams understood that no-spacing facilitates easier double-teaming.. With defenders in closer proximity, they have less distance to travel to provide help.





It was a man's game in 96.


It's a stark difference from today's spacing - with today's spacing and defenders spread out further, there's an expectation that once the ball movement or penetration begins, the defense will invariably shift to cover that extra ground, and a play will develop.. So the spacing allows players the luxury of standing and waiting for the inevitable play to develop.

But with NO spacing and players occupying the paint, there was no such guarantee or expectation that the defense would shift once ball movement started or penetration was attempted - a defender standing in the paint will turn his head and body like a swivel chair when the ball is swung.. Likewise, a defender already standing in the paint doesn't have to move at all when penetration occurs..

So players couldn't wait around for the perfect spot to attack like today's spacing allows - consequently, the pace was more hectic and frantic as players sought open looks THROUGHOUT the shot-clock.. This is confirmed by the eyetest - footage is available to compare the defense played in the 2015 Finals to the 1996 Finals, and it's already been edited:

Defense in 2015 Finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ
Defense in 1996 Finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw

[jrong]

I just got finished watching Jordan's game 6 against the Suns in the 93 Finals. That was actually a fairly pedestrian game for him in that series. And yet just in that one game, you can see his clear-cut superiority over LeBron.

Because the bottom-line is that, say what you want about injuries, if LeBron could have made a jumpshot, the Cavs would be champs. If he shot 50 percent instead of 40 percent, the Cavs would be champs (to say nothing of his inflated percentages on the Heat-- I correctly predicted that neither he nor Wade would come close to those shooting numbers ever again once they were apart).

What we learned in the Finals is that, when it matters, LeBron without superstar backing is a glorified Russell Westbrook.

It's over fanboys. GOAT is off the table. He could become the second best player ever, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

But, his playoff failures against the Celtics that cost the Cavs a chance to compete for a title in 2008 (when he shot 36% with 6 TOs) and 2010 (when he quit) and his Finals failure that cost the Heat a title against the Mavs (when he never even showed up) can't be ignored. You can't just look at the positive size of his ledger. You have to factor in the negative side too.

And Jordan's positive ledger is a lot bigger than LBJ's, and LBJ's negative ledger is a LOT bigger than Jordan's. That's why LeBron is, wait for it... 2/6 and MJ is 6/6.

Game over.

[sportjames23]

OP gettin absolutely reck't in his own thread.

http://abload.de/img/0099_2bjto.gif

[Phong]

Celebrating losing... :facepalm

[superteamtheory]

They didn't lose because of Lebron.. he gave a valiant effort, but the point is MJ could've done more given the circumstances. MJ isn't missing 70+% of his jumpers and seeing single coverage.. mozzy and Tristan Thompson were already dominating their matchups while having men on them, imagine being freed up even more because MJ would require a hard double everytime.. mj very well could've won with that cast.. breeze through the east, and go HAM in the Finals. He also isn't having a 20 point game 4 while being able to sense blood and go for the kill on GS. I think cavs would've won in 6.

I don't disagree and it's not guys like you that I have an issue with...

It's all this macho b.s. and saying Bron played horrible or something. That is all garbage these people just want to believe is true...

I'll admit I'm a bit confused too why he doesn't drive more sometimes... I try my best to see it from his POV, he's tired, the whole defence will collapse on him (the single coverage is an illusion), he's not getting friendly calls from the refs, he's feeling like he can simply shoot over Iggy on the perimeter (but after a few games, it becomes obvious that isn't the case, even if he does make some tough shots here and there, he's not doing it consistently) ... Maybe he'll look at the tapes too and learn from it and hopefully sharpen the jumper this summer too. I don't think he'll ever be as great midrange as Kobe and Jordan (or Bird) but I know he is normally better than that .400 %...

[mehyaM24]

Celebrating losing... :facepalm
i'm pointing out the hypocrisy in people's logic.

lebron this past finals played a really good series, and was clearly better than jordan in 1996 as most objective people would agree. how AND why that's celebrates losing (the title but not the substance in here), a team accomplishment, i'm not really sure. take it up with the people who have done nothing here but add little one liners. :oldlol:

[Bay Area Baller]

You caught me I am in celebration of Jordan's 1996 performance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M

:rockon: :rockon:

[mehyaM24]

How laughable when you talk about excuse. It looks like you are the one who using absurd excuse. What kind of nonsense theory is that as you stated there were 3 more games after the bulls up to 3-0 lead? No teams ever come back from 0-3 down which is a fact apply in nba and this is still validity until now.

this doesn't even make sense.

plenty of teams have come back from 3-0 to make it a series. some have even tied it up at 3. whether or not anybody has come from such deficit, to win the series, is irrelevant because its been done before in sports - it CAN happen. fact.

hindsight is always 20/20, but the sonics ACTUALLY made the series competitive. payton shutting jordan down had a lot to do with it.

[Da_Realist]

It's over fanboys. GOAT is off the table. He could become the second best player ever, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

Only if you judge by the stat sheet. He's great, but he's not second greatest player ever great. He's the only great player I know where a team can build a winning strategy by leaving him alone.

[nba_55]

Jordan won, even though that's by far his worst Finals performance. That's why it's celebrated. He wasn't good, terrible by his all-time best Finals standards but his game 3 performance on the road basically sealed the win on the series.

It's Mike's worst performance in a Finals series, but it's still better than Kobe, and LeBron's worst Finals series. MJ's '96 > Bron '07, '11 and Kobe's '00, '04, and '08.

LeBron's performance was kind of fool's gold. He was very good, never great. But he shot really poorly, against a defensive strategy that saw him face one defender consistently, being dared to beat them by scoring. And he grossly underperformed in important games in game 4, and game 6 @ home.

Bulls won, not only Jordan. That shows how much better Jordan's team was compared to Lebron's.

[Dresta]

OP is a first rate retard.

His idiocy deserves no further response than that. You're wasting your time trying to discuss anything with someone that deluded (fyi 96 was Jordan's worst finals performance, and isn't 'celebrated' anyway). Lebron is always disappearing in the biggest moments of various series, and his stans can't handle it, the pathetic idolising children they are.

[knicksman]

The better question is will bran surpass wilt next season?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bulls won, not only Jordan.
Did I say otherwise?


That shows how much better Jordan's team was compared to Lebron's.
The 1996 team compared to what LeBron had around him in the Finals? Obviously.

Also, did I say or was anyone arguing otherwise?

Also MJ's '96 Finals isn't celebrated. And we're taking MJ's worst, against arguably LeBron's best (next to 2012) and comparing them? Um ok.

Objectively MJ's '91 - '93, and '97 shit all over the best LeBron has managed to produce in the Finals.

The only thing celebrated is LeBron's 2015 Finals. And it's overrated. The team lost. He shot atrociously, and played horrendously in the two most important games: 4 and 6.

[ArbitraryWater]

Did I say otherwise?


The 1996 team compared to what LeBron had around him in the Finals? Obviously.

Also, did I say or was anyone arguing otherwise?

Also MJ's '96 Finals isn't celebrated. And we're taking MJ's worst, against arguably LeBron's best (next to 2012) and comparing them? Um ok.

Objectively MJ's '91 - '93, and '97 shit all over the best LeBron has managed to produce in the Finals.

The only thing celebrated is LeBron's 2015 Finals. And it's overrated. The team lost. He shot atrociously, and played horrendously in the two most important games: 4 and 6.

How is game 4 any more important than game 2, or game 3?

[knicksman]

How is game 4 any more important than game 2, or game 3?

Bran stans logic:
Garbage time is as important as clutch. :lol
Thats why you guys are the dumbest on this board.

[Indian guy]

He shot atrociously, and played horrendously in the two most important games: 4 and 6.

That's pretty arbitrary. Why exactly were games 4 & 6 any more important than the other 4 games? Particularly Game 4, considering Cleveland was up in the series at that point. Seems like you're trying way too hard to attach an extra negative to those sub-par games. And I would hardly call 32/18/9, even on 40% shooting, a "horrendous" game.

[andgar923]

Warrior's defense on Lebron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ
Sonics' defense on Jordan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpkXlrJxtw




.Lebron would've retired after the first game.

Posting his emotional retirement on Instagram a la Drake.

[Spurs m8]

Because LeBron lost the series for his team.

Op...you stupid motherfuker

[Nash]

lebron had much better individual series, jordan won.

easy as that, dunno what the hell you guys are discussing.

[3ball]

:lol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's pretty arbitrary. Why exactly were games 4 & 6 any more important than the other 4 games?
Pretty easy to understand.

Game 4 was a momentum game, the only point in the Finals that Cleveland had control of the series ... they lost it all that game.

Game 6, do I need to explain? It was elimination game.


And I would hardly call 32/18/9, even on 40% shooting, a "horrendous" game.
Not horrendous, but LeBron had shot poorly all series. His all around game, apart from lazy defensive spells was very good. Are you insinuating his game 6 was the best he could do?

[3ball]

He's the only great player I know where a team can build a winning strategy by leaving him alone.


What winning strategy - they lost - what you said is the opposite of the truth..

These Finals proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Lebron CAN'T win a championship at a high shot volume, with good teammates or bad.

With good teammates, his game isn't nuanced enough to achieve high shot volume to begin with - on the Heat, he only averaged 18 shots per game during his 4 years, which hurt him in the 2014 Finals (where he also averaged 4 apg).. He simply didn't have the skill necessary to get his 2015 playoffs shot volume alongside other good teammates - if he could, the Heat would've been blowing everyone away EVERY YEAR..

Alongside bad teammates, he can easily get the volume, as we saw in these playoffs (27 fga for playoffs and 33 fga for Finals) - but he can't shoot nearly well enough at that volume to win - shooting 39% works against Chicago, but not against the top 10% of the league..

Since Lebron can't achieve high volume around good teammates, and since he shoots poorly even when he gets the high volume alongside bad teammates, he simply CANNOT win a championship while shooting a high volume.





If you go by the stat sheet


If you go by the stat sheet, Jordan COULD win a championship at high shot volume, specifically because he shot so much better.. In 1993, Jordan had higher fga and usage (27 fga, 38.0%) than Lebron had in these playoffs (27 fga, 37.6%).. But Jordan's 119 ORtg efficiency was a more credible threat than Lebron's 105, which gave his team considerably more strategic and overall capacity on the offensive end.

MJ's playoff career usage was 35.6%, #1 all time, with an ORtg of 118, compared to Lebron's 30.2% as a Heat, and 32.1% for his career.. So no one was a bigger force, or was "left more alone" than MJ..

Also, MJ could've focused on other things AND LOST, like Lebron - he could've demanded to be a ball-dominant point guard so he could average 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) on 52% including 10 triple doubles in 11 games (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games) like he did when he played PG for 24 games in 1989.. But the ball-dominant style doesn't win, so he played off-ball and maximized his teams capacity and chances of winning.

Btw, Lebron losing to the champs in 6 games is no more of a winning strategy than the MJ going crazy against the champion Celtics in 1986, and their #1 defense - in both cases, they LOST while putting up raw stats (MJ's were much better)...

However, Jordan WAS able to win a Finals (1993) while producing like Lebron did in these Finals, because he was able to achieve both high volume and good efficiency, despite playing with other good players and using advanced strategy (triangle).. Like another poster said, if Lebron shoots better in these Finals - Cavs win.. MJ was able to shooter better, so he won at the high shooting volume, while Lebron failed.
.

[mehyaM24]

^^^^^^^^^^

jordan was not able to win a championship until scottie pippen was drafted. his playoff record without pippen, the worst of any top 10 all-time, speaks for itself.

jordan was like vegeta-raw talent, skill, ruthlessness
pippen was goku-innate leadership, no weaknesses

phil had more trust in pippen because he was the steady player of the two. while jordan scored a lot of points and made his defenders pay, scottie took the bulls offense by the horns and made opposing TEAM DEFENSES (and offenses) pay.

[3ball]

jordan was like vegeta-raw talent, skill, ruthlessness
pippen was goku-innate leadership, no weaknesses


Since Lebron can't achieve high shooting volume around good teammates, and since he shoots poorly even when he gets the high volume alongside bad teammates, he simply CANNOT win a championship while shooting a high volume.

Whereas Jordan CAN achieve a high shooting volume around good teammates and he CAN shoot a high percentage at the higher volume, so he DID win a championship shooting high volume (33 fga in 1993 Finals - 41/6/9 on 50%.. yikes)

[mehyaM24]

Since Lebron can't achieve high shooting volume around good teammates, and since he shoots poorly even when he gets the high volume alongside bad teammates, he simply CANNOT win a championship while shooting a high volume.

Whereas Jordan CAN achieve a high shooting volume around good teammates and he CAN shoot a high percentage at the higher volume, so he DID win a championship shooting high volume (33 fga in 1993 Finals - 41/6/9 on 50%.. yikes)
lol

jordan could only muster 1 playoff win without pippen. 1 win in 10 tries.

[3ball]

1-9


Whenever you say 1-9, it's equal to saying the 1986 and 1987 Celtics = Gilbert Arenas Wizards (who Lebron played 3 years in a row in 1st round).. :confusedshrug:


Now let's compare both players' performances at 22 years old against championship teams:

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007:. 22 ppg on 35%
Jordan vs. Celtics in 1986: 44 ppg on 51%

Btw, the 1986 Celtics had the #1 defense in the league.

[mehyaM24]

Whenever you say 1-9, it's equal to saying the 1986 and 1987 Celtics = Gilbert Arenas Wizards (who Lebron played 3 years in a row in 1st round).. :confusedshrug:


Now let's compare both players' performances at 22 years old against championship teams:

Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007:. 22 ppg on 35%
Jordan vs. Celtics in 1986: 44 ppg on 51%

Btw, the 1986 Celtics had the #1 defense in the league.

the 87 celtics were taken to 7 games by ricky pierce's bucks, who jordan routinely torched and had a winning record against in the rs.

jordan being swept by a depleted celtics team in 87, not 86, shouldn't be excused as "but he faced the GOAT team". utter and complete nonsense. :lol

1-9 is meaningful because it proves what i have been saying all along - jordan was one of the best scorers ever, but his impact wasn't as great when it came to the team concept. lebron took his team to the finals at 21, around the same age jordan got knocked out of the first round.

[PickernRoller]

LeTards reaching a new low...:oldlol: :oldlol: :facepalm :facepalm

A bottomless pit it seems.

[knicksman]

2/6 and 6/6 is all we care. So just deal with it bran stans.

[PickernRoller]

2/6 and 6/6 is all we care. So just deal with it bran stans.

They don't understand winning. It's like losing is in their genes....kinda like their idol.

[knicksman]

They don't understand winning. It's like losing is in their genes....kinda like their idol.

Yup. They dont understand that statpadders=losers. Players who care about individual awards are automatically losers. The best dont need to prove through stats. They just let their rings do the talking.

[Indian guy]

Game 4 was a momentum game

It's the Finals, dude. Every game, every qtr is ridiculously important and an opportunity to gain/shift momentum. Still not seeing why Game 4 was the "momentum game" and the rest weren't. And Cleveland already had the momentum - they had won the last 2 games and could've taken control of the series, before GS reminded everybody that they were the super-deep, 67-win team going up against a paper-thin, 1-man crew missing 2 of its 3 best players. None of the games after Game 3 were competitive. Cleveland was outclassed once Kerr figured out how to speed up the tempo(Bogut out, Iguodola in).



Not horrendous


Exactly. Nobody's saying he played a good game, but certainly far from "horrendous". I have nothing but admiration for LeBron's performance in the NBA Finals. No perimeter player in NBA history would've been efficient in his position. No one. Cleveland didn't have anything resembling a playmaker outside of LeBron. Any possession that didn't involve him was a complete disaster. So he literally had to do everything - and he was undertaking that volume against a 67-win, #1 ranked defensive team that also scored better than anyone. Yeah, it would've been great had he shot well, but given the responsibility he had, totally unrealistic.

[Young X]

1-9 is meaningful because it proves what i have been saying all along - jordan was one of the best scorers ever, but his impact wasn't as great when it came to the team concept. lebron took his team to the finals at 21, around the same age jordan got knocked out of the first round.^ How is this any different from...

"2-6 is meaningful because it proves what i have been saying all along - lebron is a great all around player, but his killer instinct isn't as great when it came to winning in the finals. jordan led his team to more championships at the same age as lebron (30) in less trips to the finals."

They're both stupid, but what makes you think your post is right?

When it comes to winning rings you wanna say they're team accomplishments (true) but you're quick to downplay Jordan's impact by pointing out his teams lack of success before Pippen.

Never seen a fanbase more concerned about 1st round series wins and conference finals championships over actually winning it all.

[TheMan]

^ How is this any different from...

"2-6 is meaningful because it proves what i have been saying all along - lebron is a great all around player, but his killer instinct isn't as great when it came to winning in the finals. jordan led his team to more championships at the same age as lebron (30) in less trips to the finals."

They're both stupid, but what makes you think your post is right?

When it comes to winning rings you wanna say they're team accomplishments (true) but you're quick to downplay Jordan's impact by pointing out his teams lack of success before Pippen.

Never seen a fanbase more concerned about 1st round series wins and conference finals championships over actually winning it all.
rat poison