Were Nash & Rose top 5 players in the league the years they won MVP?

[SouBeachTalents]

'05 is one of the hardest seasons to rank players, as no one clearly established themselves as the best in the league, and ranking a top 5 that year is extremely difficult. But considering the Suns turnaround with his arrival, helping lead his team to the most wins in the league, plus playing as well as anybody else in the playoffs, I'd consider Nash a top 5 player in '05

'06 is a lot easier, and I'd easily rank Kobe, Wade, Dirk, LeBron, and Duncan over Nash, and there's arguably a couple others others you could as well

As for 2011, I'd rank Dirk, Dwight, LeBron, Wade, and Durant over Rose, but if you swapped out Durant for Rose I wouldn't necessarily disagree

What say you ISH?

[branslowski]

Dirk wasn't a top 5 player in 2011:facepalm

[IncarceratedBob]

They were top 1. MVP = best player in the league

[R.I.P.]

Dirk wasn't a top 5 player in 2011:facepalm

Thoughts Bill?

http://www.hardwoodcanvas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/DirkMVPFinalsMVP.jpg

[Nash]

of course they were,

[DMAVS41]

Dirk wasn't a top 5 player in 2011:facepalm

What the **** are you talking about?

He led the league in RAPM in the regular season and led that mediocre supporting cast that sucked with him off the floor to a 55-18 record...2-7 without him.

Then was easily the best player overall in the playoffs.

If that doesn't warrant top 5...we might as well just stop talking basketball.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Nash was top 5 in 06 easily

Rose was top 5 in 11 easily

[Dresta]

They were top 1. MVP = best player in the league
:facepalm

It doesn't mean that at all.

[HylianNightmare]

Yes

[ClipperRevival]

Yes, that's why they won MVPs.

[Legends66NBA7]

I would definitely say Nash was Top 5 in 05, but I am not sure about 06.

Dirk was definitely top 5 in 11, no doubt.

[RightTwoCensor]

Why do idiots still try to bring postseason success into MVP conversations? It's 2015, do you retards not understand how irrelevant that is.

25 points per game/7 assists per game/4 rebounds per game/1 steal per game

Anyway, best player on the best team. (funny because people criticize Rose for winning the award but believe Curry was the MVP this year)

[DMAVS41]

Why do idiots still try to bring postseason success into MVP conversations? It's 2015, do you retards not understand how irrelevant that is.

25 points per game/7 assists per game/4 rebounds per game/1 steal per game

Anyway, best player on the best team. (funny because people criticize Rose for winning the award but believe Curry was the MVP this year)

The OP asked if they were top 5 players the year they won MVP....and is including the playoffs.

That is different than MVP.

One can think Nash deserved MVP, but wasn't the best player in the league.

I'm not sure why people like you can't see the difference.

I rarely see people say Rose doesn't deserve the MVP actually. It's just that he clearly wasn't the best player in the game.

I don't think Curry was the best either, but he has a better case than Rose did.

[Wade's Rings]

They were top 1. MVP = best player in the league

MVP doesn't mean that at all :facepalm

[TheMarkMadsen]

Why do idiots still try to bring postseason success into MVP conversations? It's 2015, do you retards not understand how irrelevant that is.

25 points per game/7 assists per game/4 rebounds per game/1 steal per game

Anyway, best player on the best team. (funny because people criticize Rose for winning the award but believe Curry was the MVP this year)

except no, the criteria changes every year

if the criteria was "best player on the best team" Shaq would have 2+ MVPs

[SamuraiSWISH]

Nash was in 2006, and Rose was in 2011.

[greatest-ever]

I think Nash was top 3 in 05, and top 5 in 06. Rose could be argued anywhere from 5-8. He had no argument ahead of Lebron, Dirk, Wade or Dwight. He's interchangeable with KD Kobe and Cp3.

[Akrazotile]

Why do idiots still try to bring postseason success into MVP conversations? It's 2015, do you retards not understand how irrelevant that is.

25 points per game/7 assists per game/4 rebounds per game/1 steal per game

Anyway, best player on the best team. (funny because people criticize Rose for winning the award but believe Curry was the MVP this year)


He asked if the players who won MVP were the BEST players in the YEAR they won it.

The MVP award doesnt take post season into account, but determining who the best actual players that year should. He didnt ask if the MVP winner had the best season. He asked if they were a top 5 player.

Dirk was clearly a top 5 player in '11.

[Akrazotile]

The OP asked if they were top 5 players the year they won MVP....and is including the playoffs.

That is different than MVP.

One can think Nash deserved MVP, but wasn't the best player in the league.

I'm not sure why people like you can't see the difference.

I rarely see people say Rose doesn't deserve the MVP actually. It's just that he clearly wasn't the best player in the game.

I don't think Curry was the best either, but he has a better case than Rose did.


Guess this guy beat me to it.

[BasedTom]

Nash was in the conversation at least. Rose had absolutely no business in the top 5.

[Smoke117]

Dirk wasn't a top 5 player in 2011:facepalm

Laker fans. :facepalm

[Optimus Prime]

Nash probably. Rose definitely not.

:kobe:

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk wasn't a top 5 player in 2011:facepalm

what the ****... I'm disgusted to see this post not replied to 10+ times with multiple facepalms :facepalm :facepalm


Nash was in 2006, and Rose was in 2011.

nahh..

Dirk/Bron/Wade/Howard are easy choices over Rose, and KD is VERY probable, Paul is arguable.

[Pointguard]

'05 is one of the hardest seasons to rank players, as no one clearly established themselves as the best in the league, and ranking a top 5 that year is extremely difficult. But considering the Suns turnaround with his arrival, helping lead his team to the most wins in the league, plus playing as well as anybody else in the playoffs, I'd consider Nash a top 5 player in '05

'06 is a lot easier, and I'd easily rank Kobe, Wade, Dirk, LeBron, and Duncan over Nash, and there's arguably a couple others others you could as well

As for 2011, I'd rank Dirk, Dwight, LeBron, Wade, and Durant over Rose, but if you swapped out Durant for Rose I wouldn't necessarily disagree

What say you ISH?

To me, if you make a team realize that they are a contender, when they are new to each other and weren't top flight the year before, you are among the best in the league because there is nothing harder to do in the sport. An inspirational leader that wins most of the battles on his back is always worth more than the best of solders - competition rarely ever deviates from this.

Both Nash and Rose had way more responsibilities on their backs than the other top players as well. They were the most consistent in showing up, and playing hard to beat teams those years as well. The both of them came to play everyday and were beating the better teams consistently (Chicago dominated the elite for 3 months).

Durant was just a gifted scorer at this time. It took awhile before leadership took shape and other parts of his game developed. He wasn't better or more effective than Rose in either season.

As the season was going on I was critical of Howard's lack of leadership the whole year. It took two years for most to see it, but he just played the game without much of a connection with teammates. While I will say he played hard and well but without much influence. His lack of seriousness even counter-productive. He couldn't make things happen and like Durant wasn't better than Rose in either season.

It was the year of the underdog in 2011. Lebron and Wade had show up issues all year long and it ended on that note. DH was in the third year of his team building up around him and underachieved - just as the Lakers did. Few seen Dirk and Rose coming. I can see the argument for Lebron and Dirk, being better but I have trouble with other guys as being listed as better.

[DMAVS41]

To me, if you make a team realize that they are a contender, when they are new to each other and weren't top flight the year before, you are among the best in the league because there is nothing harder to do in the sport. An inspirational leader that wins most of the battles on his back is always worth more than the best of solders - competition rarely ever deviates from this.

Both Nash and Rose had way more responsibilities on their backs than the other top players as well. They were the most consistent in showing up, and playing hard to beat teams those years as well. The both of them came to play everyday and were beating the better teams consistently (Chicago dominated the elite for 3 months).

Durant was just a gifted scorer at this time. It took awhile before leadership took shape and other parts of his game developed. He wasn't better or more effective than Rose in either season.

As the season was going on I was critical of Howard's lack of leadership the whole year. It took two years for most to see it, but he just played the game without much of a connection with teammates. While I will say he played hard and well but without much influence. His lack of seriousness even counter-productive. He couldn't make things happen and like Durant wasn't better than Rose in either season.

It was the year of the underdog in 2011. Lebron and Wade had show up issues all year long and it ended on that note. DH was in the third year of his team building up around him and underachieved - just as the Lakers did. Few seen Dirk and Rose coming. I can see the argument for Lebron and Dirk, being better but I have trouble with other guys as being listed as better.


Except Rose really didn't have what you claim. His team straight up murdered people when he wasn't on the court. His teams defense/rebounding straight up dominated other teams and wore them down.

Rose had a lot of offensive responsibility to make it work well enough...and he did a great job of that in the regular season, but he didn't have an abnormal burden or anything in 11.

That supporting cast just continues to be absurdly under-rated in the regular season.

You just rarely see a team that is able to trounce opponents to the tune of plus 6.1 points per 100 without their best player. You always ignore this. You really need to realize how rare that is. It makes life so much easier on the best player when he goes to the bench and his team than proceeds to dominate the opponent routinely. And it wasn't a fluke either...the next season in 12 they were plus 8.7 points per 100 without Rose.

That shit is crazy.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

best player on the best team

Where's Duncan's MVP in '14?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

No to both

05

KG
Timmy
Dirk
Shaq
Manu
Wade

06

Kobe
Dirk
Wade
KG
Timmy
Bran

11

Dirk
Wade
Dwight
Bran
KD
CP

[superteamtheory]

'05 is one of the hardest seasons to rank players, as no one clearly established themselves as the best in the league, and ranking a top 5 that year is extremely difficult.

I hear what you're saying but...

Iverson was the best in the league that year. (That year's All-star MVP not by accident.)

He'll just never get credit for it because he'll never get credit in general. / The league had turned on A.I. by that point, he was yesterday's news, bad boys were out, Nice Guys were coming in political style, Duncan, Nash etc...

But Iverson was the best. (His typical scoring numbers with career high assists, still a very reliable defensive thief.) His numbers aren't incomparable to Nash's, the only difference is Nash is a Nice Guy who plays with Stoudemire, Marion etc. so he does better and better records = MVP in the eyes of stupid voters who are unfortunately the majority / ones in power..

With his typical hacked together 76ers roster (some new guys like Korver and Iggy who were too inexperienced), he lost to the eventual Eastern champs who would take the Spurs to 7 games. There was no personal underachievement of Iverson that year, he had one of his best seasons, just didn't have the roster.

The only other guys I'd be willing to hear an argument for is Duncan... but again, Duncan is playing with peak Ginobili and a Parker that is becoming an all-star and a deep roster with recent champ experience. ... A.I. is playing with a washed up Chris Webber. ...

[Wade's Rings]

I hear what you're saying but...

Iverson was the best in the league that year. (That year's All-star MVP not by accident.)

He'll just never get credit for it because he'll never get credit in general. / The league had turned on A.I. by that point, he was yesterday's news, bad boys were out, Nice Guys were coming in political style, Duncan, Nash etc...

But Iverson was the best. (His typical scoring numbers with career high assists, still a very reliable defensive thief.) His numbers aren't incomparable to Nash's, the only difference is Nash is a Nice Guy who plays with Stoudemire, Marion etc. so he does better and better records = MVP in the eyes of stupid voters who are unfortunately the majority / ones in power..

With his typical hacked together 76ers roster (some new guys like Korver and Iggy who were too inexperienced), he lost to the eventual Eastern champs who would take the Spurs to 7 games. There was no personal underachievement of Iverson that year, he had one of his best seasons, just didn't have the roster.

The only other guys I'd be willing to hear an argument for is Duncan... but again, Duncan is playing with peak Ginobili and a Parker that is becoming an all-star and a deep roster with recent champ experience. ... A.I. is playing with a washed up Chris Webber. ...

How does winning the All-Star Game MVP validate him as the best in the Game?

[Human Error]

Both were not even top 10 players so no.

[Ncrazyballa]

Rose had a lot of offensive responsibility to make it work well enough...and he did a great job of that in the regular season, but he didn't have an abnormal burden or anything in 11.



25 points and 7 assists as a pg isnt abnormal?:lol 27 points and 7 assists against the top 8 teams in the nba isnt abnormal. You are looking at stats, you didnt even watch the games. rose legit carried the bulls to dozens of victories in the 4th quarter. 30-10 record in clutch scenarios, the bench doesnt play a role in that. you're just retarded. The bulls lost in the first round in 2012 without rose even with their awesome bench, the year before he cake walked the bulls to the ECF. huge difference, and its always been a huge difference without rose for the bulls.

30-10 record in clutch games, it was the bulls bench playing in those last 5 minutes???LOL.

[DMAVS41]

25 points and 7 assists as a pg isnt abnormal?:lol 27 points and 7 assists against the top 8 teams in the nba isnt abnormal. You are looking at stats, you didnt even watch the games. rose legit carried the bulls to dozens of victories in the 4th quarter. 30-10 record in clutch scenarios, the bench doesnt play a role in that. you're just retarded. The bulls lost in the first round in 2012 without rose even with their awesome bench, the year before he cake walked the bulls to the ECF. huge difference, and its always been a huge difference without rose for the bulls.

30-10 record in clutch games, it was the bulls bench playing in those last 5 minutes???LOL.


What is this supposed to mean? He had a very good regular season. I already said that. And believe me...I watched. And you are the one quoting irrelevant stats.

None of which has to do with my point.

[branslowski]

What the **** are you talking about?



LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Dwight, Rose, Cp3 >>>Dirk:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

Actually quick edit those 5 players I listed was also All-NBA First Team that year.


To other posters acting shocked like Dirk cant be out of the top 5, suck a d!ck and learn ball...

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Dwight, Rose, Cp3 >>>Dirk:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

Actually quick edit those 5 players I listed was also All-NBA First Team that year.


To other posters acting shocked like Dirk cant be out of the top 5, suck a d!ck and learn ball...

What's Kobe or CP3's argument over Dirk in 2011?

[GrapeApe]

It depends on the interpretation of the question. If we're retrospectively looking at entire seasons including playoffs, neither has ever been a top 5 player in the league. I don't think Nash was ever considered a top 5 player at any point. Rose has a case during the '11 regular season. I seem to recall him being regarded as a fringe top 5 player at the time.

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Dwight, Rose, Cp3 >>>Dirk:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

Actually quick edit those 5 players I listed was also All-NBA First Team that year.


To other posters acting shocked like Dirk cant be out of the top 5, suck a d!ck and learn ball...

You're really gonna say shit you don't even believe just cause you're

a) butthurt that he swept your team & lover
b) you hate a certain poster here

really? REALLY?!










































































































http://media.tumblr.com/6a83ebded0e403e94578bda63508af60/tumblr_inline_mypc17m6io1qmi1x8.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

What's Kobe or CP3's argument over Dirk in 2011?

I also wanna know KD's... and Rose's.. 2011 had a pretty clear top 4, being Bron/Dirk/Dwight/Wade.

[Megabox!]

Both were not even top 10 players so no.
Uhhhhh....wat

[branslowski]

NBA First Team All-NBA that year

Kobe
Durant
Dwight
Rose
LeBron

Obviously not the only one who didn't think Dirk was top 5 that year...Who cares wat a couple of ISH dumbass's have to say.:oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

NBA First Team All-NBA that year

Kobe
Durant
Dwight
Rose
LeBron

Obviously not the only one who didn't think Dirk was top 5 that year...Who cares wat a couple of ISH dumbass's have to say.:oldlol:

I guess by that genius logic Robinson > Hakeem in '95 because he made All-NBA First Team. Same with Kidd > Kobe in '01

[ArbitraryWater]

NBA First Team All-NBA that year

Kobe
Durant
Dwight
Rose
LeBron

Obviously not the only one who didn't think Dirk was top 5 that year...Who cares wat a couple of ISH dumbass's have to say.:oldlol:

dude, all other Laker fans aren't this annoying.. actually, they put Dirk at one since it also kinda takes a year away from Bron lol.. try going that direction, makes you look alot less stupid than saying he wasn't top 5.

As you might also noticed, Kobe is first team in 2011 even though we all know Wade was better. Just sad that you have to rely on that this way.

[ZMonkey11]

what the ****... I'm disgusted to see this post not replied to 10+ times with facepalms.

You don't feed the trolls. They die off. They go away. Don't feed the trolls.

[branslowski]

dude, all other Laker fans aren't this annoying.. actually, they put Dirk at one since it also kinda takes a year away from Bron lol.. try going that direction, makes you look alot less stupid than saying he wasn't top 5.

As you might also noticed, Kobe is first team in 2011 even though we all know Wade was better. Just sad that you have to rely on that this way.

Nah, didn't rely on this in particular, it was just an exclamation point to my already knowing who the better pure players were that year by watching.

[DMAVS41]

LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Dwight, Rose, Cp3 >>>Dirk:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

Actually quick edit those 5 players I listed was also All-NBA First Team that year.


To other posters acting shocked like Dirk cant be out of the top 5, suck a d!ck and learn ball...

That actually isn't a list of the best players. That is a list of an all nba team...which is different.

It's totally meaningless either way, but one can be a top 5 player and not make first team all nba. You might want to realize that.

Anyway....on your list...Durant, Kobe, Rose, and CP3 have absolutely 0 case over Dirk in 11 if you base it on real evidence.

But keep on going on...you'll be roasted here. No need from me to pile on.

[branslowski]

That actually isn't a list of the best players. That is a list of an all nba team...which is different.

It's totally meaningless either way, but one can be a top 5 player an not make first team all nba. You might want to realize that.

Anyway....on your list...Durant, Kobe, Rose, and CP3 have absolutely 0 case over Dirk in 11 if you base it on real evidence.

But keep on going on...you'll be roasted here. No need from me to pile on.

Kobe higher PER and PPG aswell as assist and he was the better defender easily/ Next?:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Kobe higher PER and PPG aswell as assist and he was the better defender easily/ Next?:confusedshrug:

But Kobe wasn't the better defender though. Kobe's defense was actually bad in 11. Dirk's was actually good.

Higher PER and ppg? Like really? That is your argument?

Terrible argument, but we can play by those rules. Let's add up PER and ppg for playoffs and regular season to get take it all in.

Again...using your criteria so you lose on your own logic.

Points per game...(regular season plus playoffs)

Dirk...51 points
Kobe...48 points


PER...(regular season plus playoffs)

Dirk....48
Kobe...45

So....even on your own ****ed up and limited criteria...you lose.

[branslowski]

Kobe- 25ppg 5reb 5ast 1.2stl 45%FG 24 PER

Dirk- 23ppg 7reb 2ast 0stl 0blk 51%fg (7 footer) PER 23.4

Kobe All-Defensive First Team aswell....This voted by NBA coaches, not online forum posters. So Kobe better raw numbers, better PER, and was better defensively than Dirk....Yawl can't be serious...And the posters I'm allegedly debating with all hates Kobe so ofcource we already know you gonna suck eachother off and ignore the facts.:confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe- 25ppg 5reb 5ast 1.2stl 45%FG 24 PER

Dirk- 23ppg 7reb 2ast 0stl 0blk 51%fg (7 footer) PER 23.4

Kobe All-Defensive First Team aswell....This voted by NBA coaches, not online forum posters. So Kobe better raw numbers, better PER, and was better defensively than Dirk....Yawl can't be serious...And the posters I'm allegedly debating with all hates Kobe so ofcource we already know you gonna suck eachother off and ignore the facts.:confusedshrug:

Just like you're going to completely ignore the postseason

[DMAVS41]

Kobe- 25ppg 5reb 5ast 1.2stl 45%FG 24 PER

Dirk- 23ppg 7reb 2ast 0stl 0blk 51%fg (7 footer) PER 23.4

Kobe All-Defensive First Team aswell....This voted by NBA coaches, not online forum posters. So Kobe better raw numbers, better PER, and was better defensively than Dirk....Yawl can't be serious...And the posters I'm allegedly debating with all hates Kobe so ofcource we already know you gonna suck eachother off and ignore the facts.:confusedshrug:

Those aren't the only "facts" though.

Also, I'm curious if you will follow your criteria through:

Dirk....25.4/10/3 58% TS...24 PER...

Kobe....25.6/5/5 54% TS....22.4 PER...

So will you admit Dirk has been better in the playoffs than Kobe has for their careers?

Dirk has averaged only .2 less points while shooting better from everywhere. On 2's, 3's, and the ft line. He's been better when you combined rebounds and assists....and he beats Kobe in your favorite metric...PER.

So do you yield that Dirk is the better playoff player?

Please answer.

Also, please explain how Kobe is better than Lebron if it's boiled down to what you say above.

Lebron scores more than Kobe. Is more efficient than Kobe. Plays better defense than Kobe. And has a much higher PER than Kobe.

So.....I ask again...will you carry this through.

If so, I'll gladly let you have Kobe in 11 if you admit Dirk has been better in the playoffs overall. By all means...for once I hope you do stay consistent.

[branslowski]

Just like you're going to completely ignore the postseason

When thread title talkin about Nash and Rose winnin Regular season MVP's?? The playoffs with a 20 game stretch vs a 10 game stretch? Over a 82 game stretch?? Toughest defensive team Mavs played was the Thunder, and the Heat don't count cause LeBron quit.:confusedshrug:

[Pointguard]

Rose had a lot of offensive responsibility to make it work well enough...and he did a great job of that in the regular season, but he didn't have an abnormal burden or anything in 11.
Really.
1. He was responsible for more of his teams points than any other player.
2. The frontcourt scoring got off on offensive rebounding because of Rose's penetration. So scoring from his presence vs the team output, is now at an absurd high level already, close to 40%.
3. He was the only consistently creative player on the team. The only one that could consistently get his own shot. Its now abnormal.
4. The offense was predicated on him breaking down and wearing out the defense.
5. He was the only player top ten in scoring and assist.
6. The coach isn't offensive minded and dedicated only 20 minutes of practice on offense.
7. It was a young new team, with new players whose second best offensive player was benched twice in ECF for not knowing the very few players they ran.
8. Rose had to spread the floor and create space for himself.
9. Rose was tripled team more than any player and he's a perimeter player.
10.The team couldn't break a trap and still had the best record in the league, better than a team that got tons of easy points with both Wade and Lebron on it.
11. Not one player on his team was close to being top ten in any offensive category.
12. Not one player on the team was proficient in any way offensively. Not one solid finisher or shooter. Not one great athlete. And the team got few easy baskets.

Please humor me with another player CLOSE to what Rose did, and had the best record in the league... ever.

You a funny dude man.

[ArbitraryWater]

Really.
1. He was responsible for more of his teams points than any other player.
2. The frontcourt scoring got off on offensive rebounding because of Rose's penetration. So scoring from his presence vs the team output, is now at an absurd high level already, close to 40%.
3. He was the only consistently creative player on the team. The only one that could consistently get his own shot. Its now abnormal.
4. The offense was predicated on him breaking down and wearing out the defense.
5. He was the only player top ten in scoring and assist.
6. The coach isn't offensive minded and dedicated only 20 minutes of practice on offense.
7. It was a young new team, with new players whose second best offensive player was benched twice in ECF for not knowing the very few players they ran.
8. Rose had to spread the floor and create space for himself.
9. Rose was tripled team more than any player and he's a perimeter player.
10.The team couldn't break a trap and still had the best record in the league, better than a team that got tons of easy points with both Wade and Lebron on it.
11. Not one player on his team was close to being top ten in any offensive category.
12. Not one player on the team was proficient in any way offensively. Not one solid finisher or shooter. Not one great athlete. And the team got few easy baskets.

Please humor me with another player CLOSE to what Rose did, and had the best record in the league... ever.

You a funny dude man.


http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/d2d0927c0f_zpstio4fe0f.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/MaleRuler/media/GIFs/d2d0927c0f_zpstio4fe0f.gif.html)


You don't feed the trolls. They die off. They go away. Don't feed the trolls.

good point

[DMAVS41]

Really.
1. He was responsible for more of his teams points than any other player.
2. The frontcourt scoring got off on offensive rebounding because of Rose's penetration. So scoring from his presence vs the team output, is now at an absurd high level already, close to 40%.
3. He was the only consistently creative player on the team. The only one that could consistently get his own shot. Its now abnormal.
4. The offense was predicated on him breaking down and wearing out the defense.
5. He was the only player top ten in scoring and assist.
6. The coach isn't offensive minded and dedicated only 20 minutes of practice on offense.
7. It was a young new team, with new players whose second best offensive player was benched twice in ECF for not knowing the very few players they ran.
8. Rose had to spread the floor and create space for himself.
9. Rose was tripled team more than any player and he's a perimeter player.
10.The team couldn't break a trap and still had the best record in the league, better than a team that got tons of easy points with both Wade and Lebron on it.
11. Not one player on his team was close to being top ten in any offensive category.
12. Not one player on the team was proficient in any way offensively. Not one solid finisher or shooter. Not one great athlete. And the team got few easy baskets.

Please humor me with another player CLOSE to what Rose did, and had the best record in the league... ever.

You a funny dude man.

Did you actually just say "ever"? And you want to be taken seriously here? Holy shit man.

You can continue to list 100 other BS things and it won't change the fact that the Bulls were dominant without Rose. You don't get that and never will.

It's such a huge factor in winning games in the regular season.

An off differential of plus 6.1 is ****ing silly good.

[branslowski]

Those aren't the only "facts" though.

Also, I'm curious if you will follow your criteria through:

Dirk....25.4/10/3 58% TS...24 PER...

Kobe....25.6/5/5 54% TS....22.4 PER...

So will you admit Dirk has been better in the playoffs than Kobe has for their careers?

Dirk has averaged only .2 less points while shooting better from everywhere. On 2's, 3's, and the ft line. He's been better when you combined rebounds and assists....and he beats Kobe in your favorite metric...PER.

So do you yield that Dirk is the better playoff player?

Please answer.

You take a L in one house n run to the next? I'll play...

Playoff Points Top 5:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Kobe
4. Shaq
5. Duncan


17. Dirk

Lets go defense: Playoff All-Time stl list and blocks list

Blocks: Dirk 126, Kobe 144

Stls:: Dirk 147/ 43rd All-Time, Kobe 310/ 5th All-Time

Kobe 5 Titles 2 Finals MVP's vs Dirk 1 Title 1 Final MVP

Not sure if you serious at this point..:coleman:

[DMAVS41]

You take a L in one house n run to the next? I'll play...

Playoff Points Top 5:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Kobe
4. Shaq
5. Duncan


17. Dirk

Lets go defense: Playoff All-Time stl list and blocks list

Blocks: Dirk 126, Kobe 144

Stls:: Dirk 147/ 43rd All-Time, Kobe 310/ 5th All-Time

Kobe 5 Titles 2 Finals MVP's vs Dirk 1 Title 1 Final MVP

Not sure if you serious at this point..:coleman:


You can't do that....you can't shift.

If winning a title and finals mvp matters so much to you...how was Kobe better in 11?

You see how you are caught here?

You list the stats and PER and claim Kobe was better. Then when I do the same,...you shift the criteria to something else.

So which is it? Try to actually argue in good faith and consistently.

But alas...I waste my time. I thought you would have read a book or two in prison and learned to think. But you clearly didn't. You got dumber.

[branslowski]

You can't do that....you can't shift.

If winning a title and finals mvp matters so much to you...how was Kobe better in 11?

You see how you are caught here?

You list the stats and PER and claim Kobe was better. Then when I do the same,...you shift the criteria to something else.

So which is it? Try to actually argue in good faith and consistently.

But alas...I waste my time. I thought you would have read a book or two in prison and learned to think. But you clearly didn't. You got dumber.

There goes that "If you don't agree with me your a stupid" BS you always kickin when you run out of gas:oldlol:

1. You again try to ignore the clear raw facts in Kobe's corner for their career.

2. Speaking of Career thats the numbers I got for a CAREER...So i'm not going to do the 2011 single season the same way I would someone whole career...Would be idiotic.

EX: In 2011 I think Rose was better than Wade that year....But All-Time I got Wade better.:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

There goes that "If you don't agree with me your a stupid" BS you always kickin when you run out of gas:oldlol:

1. You again try to ignore the clear raw facts in Kobe's corner for their career.

2. Speaking of Career thats the numbers I got for a CAREER...So i'm not going to do the 2011 single season the same way I would someone whole career...Would be idiotic.

EX: In 2011 I think Rose was better than Wade that year....But All-Time I got Wade better.:confusedshrug:

Actually not at all.

I used your own criteria to put you into a corner to see if you'd be consistent.

Shocking...you weren't...you shifted and changed.

Again...clearly you think there is more than PER and raw stats....otherwise....Kobe simply isn't anywhere near as good as you claim.

We all know this, but I'm just trying to use your own logic here to show you why it's flawed here.

But you won't listen...like usual.

And your example doesn't work either...at all.

[Pointguard]

That supporting cast just continues to be absurdly under-rated in the regular season.
Not one of them proved to be much of a player after that outside of Gibson but he was a rookie. They all had no stats that year and moved on to better situations but never added up to much. Korver had lost his shot after the all star break and was garbage the rest of the year. Asik, CJ Watson, Bogans... Please stop while you are behind.

By contrast GSW had a guy who could lead the league blocks now. A guy that won FMVP while guarding the best player on the planet, right now. And a 20/10 allstar who can still put up those numbers. Shawn Livingston and Harrison Barnes could start for 10 teams each. Barbosa made more meaningful shots than that Bulls whole bench.


You just rarely see a team that is able to trounce opponents to the tune of plus 6.1 points per 100 without their best player. You always ignore this. You really need to realize how rare that is. It makes life so much easier on the best player when he goes to the bench and his team than proceeds to dominate the opponent routinely. And it wasn't a fluke either...the next season in 12 they were plus 8.7 points per 100 without Rose.

That shit is crazy.
:lol
And not one of those players can be starters on bad teams. Should tell you the value of your stat. And yeah you don't watch the games you keep making crazy mistakes like this all the time. ALL THE TIME.

[The_Pharcyde]

Did you actually just say "ever"? And you want to be taken seriously here? Holy shit man.

You can continue to list 100 other BS things and it won't change the fact that the Bulls were dominant without Rose. You don't get that and never will.

It's such a huge factor in winning games in the regular season.

An off differential of plus 6.1 is ****ing silly good.

the 2012-13 and 2013-14 Bulls were dominant
6 playoff wins in 2 years but man they were an absolute force

[Pointguard]

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/d2d0927c0f_zpstio4fe0f.gif (http://s1383.photobucket.com/user/MaleRuler/media/GIFs/d2d0927c0f_zpstio4fe0f.gif.html)

good point
:lol
AreBitsh Water, that's your new name. You flow as the piss pot leads.

[DMAVS41]

Not one of them proved to be much of a player after that outside of Gibson but he was a rookie. They all had no stats that year and moved on to better situations but never added up to much. Korver had lost his shot after the all star break and was garbage the rest of the year. Asik, CJ Watson, Bogans... Please stop while you are behind.

By contrast GSW had a guy who could lead the league blocks now. A guy that won FMVP while guarding the best player on the planet, right now. And a 20/10 allstar who can still put up those numbers. Shawn Livingston and Harrison Barnes could start for 10 teams each. Barbosa made more meaningful shots than that Bulls whole bench.

:lol
And not one of those players can be starters on bad teams. Should tell you the value of your stat. And yeah you don't watch the games you keep making crazy mistakes like this all the time. ALL THE TIME.

Man...I try with you...I really do.

I don't make crazy mistakes...you do.

You should really check yourself. You and Brans man...you guys have lost your minds.

You are the ones saying that the Cavs were better without Irving/Love. Which is about as dumb as it gets.

But you guys can have this one. It's old hat at this point. I'll let someone else try it with you two.

For the next guy....

Notice how Brans changes his criteria in each post.

Notice how PG can't grasp how dominant the Bulls were without Rose on the court...and don't bother responding to his subjective nonsense that includes phrases like "Rose turns the creative wheel of the team"...

Enjoy mates.

[branslowski]

Actually not at all.

I used your own criteria to put you into a corner to see if you'd be consistent.

Shocking...you weren't...you shifted and changed.

Again...clearly you think there is more than PER and raw stats....otherwise....Kobe simply isn't anywhere near as good as you claim.

We all know this, but I'm just trying to use your own logic here to show you why it's flawed here.

But you won't listen...like usual.

And your example doesn't work either...at all.


So at the end of the day, you wanted me to use the same criteria for 1 single season aswell as for comparing that to a whole career?:facepalm

In other words, I don't do season vs season the same as career vs career....You get it now? Or are you gonna continue to pretend I'm shifting gears on the same premise when we both now know where I stand on comparing 1 year to a WHOLE CAREEER?...:confusedshrug:

[branslowski]

Man...I try with you...I really do.

I don't make crazy mistakes...you do.

You should really check yourself. You and Brans man...you guys have lost your minds.

You are the ones saying that the Cavs were better without Irving/Love. Which is about as dumb as it gets.

But you guys can have this one. It's old hat at this point. I'll let someone else try it with you two.

For the next guy....

Notice how Brans changes his criteria in each post.

Notice how PG can't grasp how dominant the Bulls were without Rose on the court...and don't bother responding to his subjective nonsense that includes phrases like "Rose turns the creative wheel of the team"...

Enjoy mates.

Translated: Damn this black guy is handing me my ass in this fist fight, i'm a bloody mess, what should I do? Oh I know "Hey everybody, me fighting Jamaal isn't proving anything, he's still gonna be the same person who kicks my ass:cry: , to the next guys who fight him notice how he throws 2 left jabs and a powerful righthand hook, ITS CHEATING!!!:lebroncry:"

Truth.com

[Pointguard]

Did you actually just say "ever"? And you want to be taken seriously here? Holy shit man.
Show me a team that could not break a trap, that had a guy rocking 30% of its points that had the best record in the league. That's a simple request, if its that crazy right???


You can continue to list 100 other BS things and it won't change the fact that the Bulls were dominant without Rose. You don't get that and never will.

It's such a huge factor in winning games in the regular season.

An off differential of plus 6.1 is ****ing silly good.
They were not dominant without Rose. Are you nuts? They were a good defensive team that wasn't going to dominate elite teams. You are talking about bench players playing other inferior players for 12 minutes a game. Its insanity. Watch the game and you will see why its such a silly concept.

[Pointguard]

Man...I try with you...I really do.

I don't make crazy mistakes...you do.

You should really check yourself. You and Brans man...you guys have lost your minds.

You are the ones saying that the Cavs were better without Irving/Love. Which is about as dumb as it gets.

when you start getting your butt whopped you bring up all types of stuff.

Focus!!!


But you guys can have this one. It's old hat at this point. I'll let someone else try it with you two.

For the next guy....

Notice how Brans changes his criteria in each post.

Notice how PG can't grasp how dominant the Bulls were without Rose on the court...and don't bother responding to his subjective nonsense that includes phrases like "Rose turns the creative wheel of the team"...

Enjoy mates.
:lol :lol :lol
Name us the player that had Rose's responsibility. I shredded that argument. Nobody else is going in your stead because they have pride. You can't grasp that bench players that can't handle starters, and who only play 12 minutes are not why a team has the best record in the league.

[Legends66NBA7]

LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Dwight, Rose, Cp3 >>>Dirk:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

Actually quick edit those 5 players I listed was also All-NBA First Team that year

All-NBA First team doesn't make you a lock for Top 5 for the whole year.

Paul and Rose aren't over Dirk for the whole season, neither is Kobe. Put in playoff play and it's not debatable that they are over Dirk. How can Kobe be over Dirk when he played like crap in those playoffs ?

[mehyaM24]

dirk & lebron were clearly the best players who carried the most impact in games.

http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2011-rapm/

^^^^ adjusted for minutes, it really isn't a close comparison either. paul/howard are somewhere in the top 5, while kobe has no argument whatsoever. none, unless you think being a net negative on defense constitutes as winning basketball. :oldlol:

[PickernRoller]

They were top 1. MVP = best player in the league

Lol what? :oldlol: :oldlol:

[FKAri]

wow branslowski is f***in retarded

You can lead a horse to water but you can't do anything if he chokes on a d1ck and dies instead :lol

[Young X]

Name us the player that had Rose's responsibility. I shredded that argument. Nobody else is going in your stead because they have pride. You can't grasp that bench players that can't handle starters, and who only play 12 minutes are not why a team has the best record in the league.The Bulls still outplaying teams to that degree with Rose on the bench is a huge reason why they had the best record.

Let's say the Bulls are up 27-21 with Rose in the 1st quarter before he sits.

You mean to tell me that the Bulls holding onto their lead (37-31) instead of losing their lead (31-37) when Rose comes back in isn't a huge reason for their success in the regular season?

People look too much at offensive talent when looking at "help". No, the Bulls weren't that talented offensively but they had a great bench and elite defense/rebounding.

[Ncrazyballa]

He had a very good regular season


rightt.... a very good regular season wins you the youngest mvp in nba history. :lol youre an idiot dude.

[Ncrazyballa]

Notice how PG can't grasp how dominant the Bulls were without Rose on the court...and don't bother responding to his subjective nonsense that includes phrases like "Rose turns the creative wheel of the team"...

Enjoy mates.

are you saying rose won mvp because his bench outplayed opponents bench most of the time, or is it because he had that kind of impact to lead the bulls to a 30-10 record in clutch games? please let me know idiot. oh and please dont tell me it was joakim noahs rebounding that gave them a 75 percent win percentage in clutch situations. lol

[Rocketswin2013]

Nash was a dominant player. Very huge offensive to impact. IIRC Rose was really good. He broke defenses down off the dribble, but there were probably3-5 better players.


So yes to Nash, possibly(but not likely) to rose.

[Pointguard]

The Bulls still outplaying teams to that degree with Rose on the bench is a huge reason why they had the best record.

Let's say the Bulls are up 27-21 with Rose in the 1st quarter before he sits.

You mean to tell me that the Bulls holding onto their lead (37-31) instead of losing their lead (31-37) when Rose comes back in isn't a huge reason for their success in the regular season?

People look too much at offensive talent when looking at "help". No, the Bulls weren't that talented offensively but they had a great bench and elite defense/rebounding.

I am assuming you seen the games? How did they outscore their opponent? Tell me how the bench did it as well. What type plays did they run and how they got their points. Remember this is a young team, new to each other, without an offensive coach and they won more games that they were losing in the 4th quarter than any other team. Rose lead the league in 4th scoring and it was steeper in close games.

Do young teams new to each other know how to out execute elite teams in close games? Is this your level of understanding the game? Do you seriously think that you win without execution in close games and nearly in all your games against the elite during the year. That all you need is defense and rebounding and a bench that can't contain starters? Do you really think there is no offensive burden on the team? Its not like they won games scoring only 70 points, they scored a high 99ppg.

I await your response... if you indeed do.

[Pointguard]

are you saying rose won mvp because his bench outplayed opponents bench most of the time, or is it because he had that kind of impact to lead the bulls to a 30-10 record in clutch games? please let me know idiot. oh and please dont tell me it was joakim noahs rebounding that gave them a 75 percent win percentage in clutch situations. lol

He and Young X are great examples of how hate dumbs you down.

[IncarceratedBob]

Lol what? :oldlol: :oldlol:
In my opinion the best player in the league is the player who adds the most value(wins) to their team. Kinda the way WAR evaluates the amount of wins the player is worth to their team, MVP in the NBA is awarded to the most VALUABLE player. For my money the MVP is the best player in the NBA because he brings the most added VALUE over a replacement caliber player.

[SouBeachTalents]

In my opinion the best player in the league is the player who adds the most value(wins) to their team. Kinda the way WAR evaluates the amount of wins the player is worth to their team, MVP in the NBA is awarded to the most VALUABLE player. For my money the MVP is the best player in the NBA because he brings the most added VALUE over a replacement caliber player.

So you agree with every MVP selection, and believe they were all the best player in the league?

[Young X]

Do young teams new to each other know how to out execute elite teams in close games? Is this your level of understanding the game? Do you seriously think that you win without execution in close games and nearly in all your games against the elite during the year. That all you need is defense and rebounding and a bench that can't contain starters? Do you really think there is no offensive burden on the team? Its not like they won games scoring only 70 points, they scored a high 99ppg.

I await your response... if you indeed do.No one's saying you only need defense, rebounding and bench play without having execution in close games. I'm simply saying you can't ignore how important those factors were to their success that season.

Rose did a terrific job with that team offensively. He was one of the best players in the league in 2011, I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying it wasn't only Rose, he had a very good team around him, maybe not offensively, but overall.

[Pointguard]

No one's saying you only need defense, rebounding and bench play without having execution in close games. I'm simply saying you can't ignore how important those factors were to their success that season.

Rose did a terrific job with that team offensively. He was one of the best players in the league in 2011, I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying it wasn't only Rose, he had a very good team around him, maybe not offensively, but overall.

My whole point here has demonstrated that Rose had a tremendous amount responsibility because of the team situation offensively. That they out executed elite teams like crazy that year with a coach that was never up to par offensively.

Are you aware that Rose was the only player on his team that was top three in rebounding at his position. And that his team had the best perimeter defense where there is the least amount of help. And that Rose had shut down elite players opposite him better than any player that year. He also lead all PG's in blocks that year. Only player on his team to rank top ten at his position in that category as well. He was also a major reason why they ranked so high in offensive rebounding.

Just threw that in there because a lot of people want to contribute to the conversation without seeing the games and Rose's play on that side of the ball.

[DMAVS41]

Haha....Brans.

You acting like I'm afraid to argue with you? I've never run from any argument on here.

I'm just not going to waste my time with someone that sets a criteria (as flawed as yours was) and then changes said criteria when it doesn't work for you.

[GimmeThat]

People sign long term contracts to help the team and keep its core in tact.

On that bases where personnel movements are limited. Rose as a rookie, certainly made a wonderful case for it. The salary cap as a topic can be brought in or stand alone.

The best PG in a time where dribble penetration along the 3 point line being the biggest issue to cover in regards to perimeter play. He took away that, all while being extremely effective/efficient.

[KendrickPerkins]

To me, if you make a team realize that they are a contender, when they are new to each other and weren't top flight the year before, you are among the best in the league because there is nothing harder to do in the sport. An inspirational leader that wins most of the battles on his back is always worth more than the best of solders - competition rarely ever deviates from this.

Both Nash and Rose had way more responsibilities on their backs than the other top players as well. They were the most consistent in showing up, and playing hard to beat teams those years as well. The both of them came to play everyday and were beating the better teams consistently (Chicago dominated the elite for 3 months).

Durant was just a gifted scorer at this time. It took awhile before leadership took shape and other parts of his game developed. He wasn't better or more effective than Rose in either season.

As the season was going on I was critical of Howard's lack of leadership the whole year. It took two years for most to see it, but he just played the game without much of a connection with teammates. While I will say he played hard and well but without much influence. His lack of seriousness even counter-productive. He couldn't make things happen and like Durant wasn't better than Rose in either season.

It was the year of the underdog in 2011. Lebron and Wade had show up issues all year long and it ended on that note. DH was in the third year of his team building up around him and underachieved - just as the Lakers did. Few seen Dirk and Rose coming. I can see the argument for Lebron and Dirk, being better but I have trouble with other guys as being listed as better.
:facepalm

That's why they made the NBA finals the very next year. He made that change in less than a year?

No, they just ran into the eventual champs in the WCF.

Durant was and always has been a MUCH better player than Rose. You're a ****ing moron for even considering Rose over Durant. Kill yourself.

[ShawkFactory]

In my opinion the best player in the league is the player who adds the most value(wins) to their team. Kinda the way WAR evaluates the amount of wins the player is worth to their team, MVP in the NBA is awarded to the most VALUABLE player. For my money the MVP is the best player in the NBA because he brings the most added VALUE over a replacement caliber player.
But MVP isn't a value based statistic like WAR. It's just a vote..

[Cone]

Dirk wasn't a top 5 player in 2011:facepalm

dirk was easily top 5. hell he was easily top 3.

stop being so butthurt that he absolutely demolished the los angeles fakers in a ****ing sweep :lol . goat playoff run might i add. ending the dreams of a 3peat and sticking a knife into kobe and phil jacksons overrated careers

[Pointguard]

:facepalm

That's why they made the NBA finals the very next year. He made that change in less than a year?

No, they just ran into the eventual champs in the WCF.

Durant was and always has been a MUCH better player than Rose. You're a ****ing moron for even considering Rose over Durant. Kill yourself.
You have the credibility of ant and it crumbles every time you post you aborted elephant diarrhea. Try making a coherent retort idiot.

:lol

[GimmeThat]

:facepalm

That's why they made the NBA finals the very next year. He made that change in less than a year?

No, they just ran into the eventual champs in the WCF.

Durant was and always has been a MUCH better player than Rose. You're a ****ing moron for even considering Rose over Durant. Kill yourself.

there were no reason as to why Kevin Martin could not have excelled under Okc. You can either blame the coach, or Durants to blame.

[KendrickPerkins]

You have the credibility of ant and it crumbles every time you post you aborted elephant diarrhea. Try making a coherent retort idiot.

:lol
Ok 40 year old delusional guy that no one takes seriously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMXEPPKdGVA

The last memory of "MVP" Rose. This was his peak as a player.

Now he's just like you... worthless.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Yes.

[Ncrazyballa]

Durant was and always has been a MUCH better player than Rose. You're a ****ing moron for even considering Rose over Durant. Kill yourself.

youre kidding right. westbrook, the athletic imbecile with a basketball has been considered better than durant at times.:lol durants another melo.

[ISHGoat]

Pointguard is legit retarded

Durant one one leg this season > peak rose

Derrick in his best season was a borderline top 10 player in the league. Him and westbrook had the same stats and played the exact same in his mvp season lmao

[Ncrazyballa]

Pointguard is legit retarded

Durant one one leg this season > peak rose

Derrick in his best season was a borderline top 10 player in the league. Him and westbrook had the same stats and played the exact same in his mvp season lmao

no they didnt:roll: against the top 8 teams, westbrook averaged like 20 points and 5 assists, with a terrible record, and rose had 27 points and 7 assists with a winning record. youre legit retarded. any version of westbrook is still worst than mvp rose. put mvp rose on okc this season and they would have made the playoffs. lol.

[Pointguard]

That's why they made the NBA finals the very next year. He made that change in less than a year?
Westbrook did it in a year so why not. This is the year after they made the finals. It applies to you as well. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NJqy8dIU1HU/U31h7d9NXpI/AAAAAAAAG3s/ufW9P-E1V2s/s1600/west.gif. Not that you have a thinking apparatus - so don't get excited.



Now he's just like you... worthless.
:lol
I mean thats still better than stupid, rude, unfocused and worthless like you. I see you have a history of people recognizing this about you. Your red bar grew since this thread started and I didn't hit you up. You are horrible at making the point that you haven't thought out, but if you want to expose yourself more, I'm good with it. You're hick stupid and apparently hell bent on showing the world.

[Pointguard]

Derrick in his best season was a borderline top 10 player in the league. Him and westbrook had the same stats and played the exact same in his mvp season lmao

Not that I think you are on the level of Kendrick Perkins above, but if you had any reading comprehension of this thread, Rose accounted for more than 30% of his teams points and they had the best record in the league. Ncrazyballa already handled you, but that point addresses both Durant and Westbrook in one shot. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NJqy8dIU1HU/U31h7d9NXpI/AAAAAAAAG3s/ufW9P-E1V2s/s1600/west.gif and this is their seventh year together.