How does Lebron get props for this?

[3ball]

2015 Playoff Stats:


41.7% FG

48.7% TS

105 ORtg

0.173 WS/48


Since when is Iverson-ball respected or lauded?

It's eye-popping how much lower these stats are than MJ's worst playoff run, and various other stars as well.

It's a testament to the weakness of his conference that these pathetic numbers succeed in getting a weak supporting cast to the Finals.. Those stats would NEVER work in another era - if MJ put up these numbers for an entire playoff run, he'd have gotten destroyed in his Eastern Conference and by the Pistons, rather than the competitive series his vastly superior stats allowed.

It's just like when Lebron's 25 ppg on 44% took the Cavs past the old, decrepit Pistons in 2007 - those would equal the worst stats of MJ's entire playoff career - but that shit WORKED to get Lebron past the Pistons.. :facepalm

This is what Durant and company think about the East: :rolleyes:

[zeerghit]

1-9

[SouBeachTalents]

2015 Playoff Stats:


41.7% FG

48.7% TS

105 ORtg

0.173 WS/48


Since when is Iverson-ball respected or lauded?

It's eye-popping how much lower these stats are than MJ's worst playoff run, and various other stars as well.

It's a testament to the weakness of his conference that these pathetic numbers succeed in getting a weak supporting cast to the Finals.. Those stats would NEVER work in another era - if MJ put up these numbers, he'd have gotten destroyed by the Pistons, rather than the competitive series his vastly superior stats allowed.

It's just like when Lebron's 25 ppg on 43% took the Cavs past the old, decrepit Pistons in 2007 - those would be worse stats than any series of MJ's entire playoff career - but that shit WORKED to get Lebron past the Pistons.. :facepalm

This is what Durant and company think about the East: :rolleyes:

These 3 series are arguably all worse than LeBron's '07 ECF

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-bulls.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-knicks.html

[Jacks3]

It is pretty amazing that a guy can take 26 shots per game with historically bad inefficiency and historically bad jump-shooting and get about 1/10th of the criticism that certain other guys have faced...and many of those other guys were much more efficient. Of course the LeBron stans will point out that he does more outside scoring and point out his rebouding and assist numbers and it's a good point, but the problem is that rebouding and assist numbers aren't really as impressive as they appear at first glance. guy is the king of inflated stats.

[Spurs m8]

Whats even more amazing is people calling it GOAT type performance.

[WindmiLL]

It is pretty amazing that a guy can take 26 shots per game with historically bad inefficiency and historically bad jump-shooting and get about 1/10th of the criticism that certain other guys have faced...and many of those other guys were much more efficient. Of course the LeBron stans will point out that he does more outside scoring and point out his rebouding and assist numbers and it's a good point, but the problem is that rebouding and assist numbers aren't really as impressive as they appear at first glance. guy is the king of inflated stats.


Wade>Kobe

[3ball]

These 3 series are arguably all worse than LeBron's '07 ECF

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1996-nba-finals-supersonics-vs-bulls.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1997-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-bulls.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bulls-vs-knicks.html
Semantics and splitting hairs.. The bottom line: one of Lebron's best playoff series ever would be one of MJ's worst (as you've identified).

MJ's 3 worst playoff series that you chose, were against 3 of the best teams he ever faced, who were all FAR better than the 2007 Pistons:

Riley's 1997 Heat had the #1 defense in the league and won 61 games.. Seattle had the #3 defense, 64 wins, and one of the better Big 3's you'll ever see - Payton, Kemp, Schrempf (6'10" point power forward, great 3-point shooter, and 3-time all-star).. And of course, the 1993 Knicks were the best of the bunch - the #1 defense three years in a row.. Stacked, deep, physical.

Of course, the Seattle and Miami series were blowouts and mostly garbage time - there was a 10 point average victory margin in the Miami series.. In the Seattle series, MJ averaged 32 ppg on 46% thru 3 games to get his team a 3-0 lead.. Everything after that is garbage time.
.

[Harison]

I dont like Lebron, but I respected his effort these Playoffs. He went down swinging. If he would do it every PO, I would respect him way more, too bad he doesnt.

[SouBeachTalents]

Semantics and splitting hairs.. The bottom line: one of Lebron's best playoff series ever would be one of MJ's worst (as you've identified).

MJ's 3 worst playoff series that you chose, were against 3 of the best teams he ever faced, who were all FAR better than the 2007 Pistons:

Riley's 1997 Heat had the #1 defense in the league and won 61 games.. Seattle had the #3 defense, 64 wins, and one of the better Big 3's you'll ever see - Payton, Kemp, Schrempf (6'10" point power forward, great 3-point shooter, and 3-time all-star).. And of course, the 1993 Knicks were the best of the bunch - the #1 defense three years in a row.. Stacked, deep, physical.

Of course, the Seattle and Miami series were blowouts and mostly garbage time - there was a 10 point average victory margin in the Miami series.. In the Seattle series, MJ averaged 32 ppg on 46% thru 3 games to get his team a 3-0 lead.. Everything after that is garbage time.
.

:biggums: I doubt anyone would consider that one of LeBron's best series. I doubt it'd even make his top 10

[ClipperRevival]

Numbers don't tell the entire story. He was on a legendary run from games 1-3, completely imposing his will on the game. This finals loss does nothing to degrade Bron. It did completely expose the fact that his iso skills aren't on par with the best ever but he carried such a load.

[knicksman]

I dont understand why people compare bran to jordan. 6/6 vs 2/6. Hes just 1/3 of jordans impact

[Sarcastic]

I dont like Lebron, but I respected his effort these Playoffs. He went down swinging. If he would do it every PO, I would respect him way more, too bad he doesnt.

Too bad he didn't go down swinging the year before, then he might actually have a 3peat.

[3ball]

(Lebron) carried such a big load.


It makes no sense to give him a pass for shooting so badly against single coverage, when if he shoots better, they WIN..

His horrible shooting percentage against single coverage proves he DIDN'T carry the load well.





He was on a legendary run from games 1-3, completely imposing his will on the game.


MJ never got a pass in 1989 and 1990 ECF against the champion Pistons, even though thru 3 and 4 games, respectively, his stats were just as good as Lebron's 2015 Finals stats (assuming you don't disregard efficiency).

In the 1989 ECF against the champion Pistons, MJ averaged 35.0/7.1/4.3 on 46.6% thru 3 games, including the game-winner over Rodman in Game 3 to get a 2-1 lead...

In 1990 ECF, he put up 35.8/7.1/5.8 on 47% thru 4 games... Again, both of these performances are equal to Lebron's numbers, unless you are disregarding efficiency.
.

[3ball]

Btw, remember, the OP stats are for Lebron's entire playoff run - most top 20 all-time players never had stats as bad as Lebron's 2015 playoff averages:

41.7% FG
48.7% TS
105 ORtg
0.173 WS/48
.

[3ball]

his iso skills aren't on par with the best ever


Lebron's efficiency was key in the Finals - it proved that he can't win a championship while shooting a high volume, alongside good OR bad players.. Alongside good players, he doesn't have the skill to find more than 18-19 shots per game (his Miami fga average).

Around lesser teammates, he can just demand the ball and waive everyone off - so he can get the volume, but he can't shoot a respectable percentage at the higher volume, so he can't WIN at the higher volume...

39.9% worked against Chicago, and 43% worked against Atlanta, but this Iverson-ball doesn't work on the top 10% of the league (the top 3-4 teams).

Otoh, Jordan WAS able to win a Finals (1993) while having a high shooting volume (33 fga) like Lebron did in these Finals, and producing equally (41/9/6 on 51%).. MJ was able to do both of the aforementioned things Lebron can't do: achieve high volume alongside decent teammates, and achieve good efficiency at that high volume.. That's why MJ won at high volume, and Lebron can't.

Like another poster said, if Lebron shoots better in these Finals - Cavs win.. MJ was able to shooter better, so his team won - believe it or not (you can look it up), both the Bulls and Suns averaged exactly 106.7 ppg in the 1993 Finals, along with exactly 113.0 ORtg for both - so every ounce of MJ's production was needed.

[3ball]

Thread Cliffs:

Lebron's 2015 playoff averages shown below are beneath MJ and far worse than MJ's worst playoff run:

41.7% FG
48.7% TS
105 ORtg
0.173 WS/48
.

[SouBeachTalents]

Btw, remember, the OP stats are for Lebron's entire playoff run - most top 20 all-time players never had stats as bad as Lebron's 2015 playoff averages:

41.7% FG
48.7% TS
105 ORtg
0.173 WS/48
.

Bird, Kobe, Baylor, Dirk, and Isiah all had playoff runs similar to that

[3ball]

Bird, Kobe, Baylor, Dirk, and Isiah all had playoff runs similar to that
Bird and Kobe had a playoff run where all four categories were as bad as Lebron's 2015 playoffs??

41.7% FG
48.7% TS
105 ORtg
0.173 WS/48

I'd be surprised if Elgin, Dirk, or Isiah did as well.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bird and Kobe had a playoff run where all four categories were as bad as Lebron's 2015 playoffs??

41.7% FG
48.7% TS
105 ORtg
0.173 WS/48

I'd be surprised if Elgin, Dirk, or Isiah did as well.

Kobe 2004
41.3% FG
50.6% TS
103 ORtg
0.145 WS/48

Bird 1982
42.7% FG
47.4% TS
103 ORtg
0.154 WS/48

Baylor 1969
38.5% FG
43.0% TS
NA 0Rtg
0.067 WS/48

Dirk 2005
40.2% FG
50.5% TS
109 ORtg
0.104 WS/48

Isiah 1989 (championship season)
41.2% FG
48.1% TS
108 ORtg
0.135 WS/48

[kamil]

1-9


Aka, damage control.

[3ball]

Lebron 2015
41.7% FG
48.7% TS
105 ORtg
0.173 WS/48

Kobe 2004
41.3% FG
50.6% TS
103 ORtg
0.145 WS/48

Bird 1982
42.7% FG
47.4% TS
103 ORtg
0.154 WS/48

Baylor 1969
38.5% FG
43.0% TS
NA 0Rtg
0.067 WS/48

Dirk 2005
40.2% FG
50.5% TS
109 ORtg
0.104 WS/48

Isiah 1989 (championship season)
41.2% FG
48.1% TS
108 ORtg
0.135 WS/48


Wow.. That's amazing how many sub-par playoff runs these guys had.

So it's pretty clear then - MJ literally towers above all these guys - he's never had a playoff run anywhere near as bad as these guys - like, the gap is massive..

He wouldn't belong within a 10 foot barge pole of that hideous list.. Pretty amazing

[red1]

Kobe 2004
41.3% FG
50.6% TS
103 ORtg
0.145 WS/48

Bird 1982
42.7% FG
47.4% TS
103 ORtg
0.154 WS/48

Baylor 1969
38.5% FG
43.0% TS
NA 0Rtg
0.067 WS/48

Dirk 2005
40.2% FG
50.5% TS
109 ORtg
0.104 WS/48

Isiah 1989 (championship season)
41.2% FG
48.1% TS
108 ORtg
0.135 WS/48
3ball getting sonned for the millionth time. what's new

[red1]

Thread Cliffs:

Lebron's 2015 playoff averages shown below are beneath MJ and far worse than MJ's worst playoff run:

41.7% FG
48.7% TS
105 ORtg
0.173 WS/48
.
this retard edited his post :roll:

[ShawkFactory]

Wow.. That's amazing how many sub-par playoff runs these guys had.

So it's pretty clear then - MJ literally towers above all these guys - he's never had a playoff run anywhere near as bad as these guys - like, the gap is massive..

He wouldn't belong within a 10 foot barge pole of that hideous list.. Pretty amazing
:facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

We saw what MJ did when he had a supporting cast that was as bad as Lebron's was in the 2015 Finals...he and his team were swept in the first round.

The '87 Celtics were a team on the decline, going 59-23, but they held MJ to .417 shooting, and swept MJ's Bulls. MJ had Charles Oakley and his 20 ppg, 15 rpg series, as well...and he still couldn't win a game.

BTW, Lebron's second best teammate was in the '15 Finals was JR Smith, who took, BY FAR, the most FGAs of any teammate...and he shot .326 (which was miles better than Delladova and Shumpert...who shot .283 and .256.)

[Rose'sACL]

It is pretty amazing that a guy can take 26 shots per game with historically bad inefficiency and historically bad jump-shooting and get about 1/10th of the criticism that certain other guys have faced...and many of those other guys were much more efficient. Of course the LeBron stans will point out that he does more outside scoring and point out his rebouding and assist numbers and it's a good point, but the problem is that rebouding and assist numbers aren't really as impressive as they appear at first glance. guy is the king of inflated stats.
He had way better stats than kobe did in 2010 finals.

[andgar923]

:wtf:
2015 Playoff Stats:


41.7% FG

48.7% TS

105 ORtg

0.173 WS/48


Since when is Iverson-ball respected or lauded?

It's eye-popping how much lower these stats are than MJ's worst playoff run, and various other stars as well.

It's a testament to the weakness of his conference that these pathetic numbers succeed in getting a weak supporting cast to the Finals.. Those stats would NEVER work in another era - if MJ put up these numbers for an entire playoff run, he'd have gotten destroyed in his Eastern Conference and by the Pistons, rather than the competitive series his vastly superior stats allowed.

It's just like when Lebron's 25 ppg on 44% took the Cavs past the old, decrepit Pistons in 2007 - those would equal the worst stats of MJ's entire playoff career - but that shit WORKED to get Lebron past the Pistons.. :facepalm

This is what Durant and company think about the East: :rolleyes:

He gets props because people are stat whores that only judge a player based on stats and not actual play.

Most people with half a brain can see his stats are misleading.

What actually amazes me the most is the fact that standards for him are so low that he gets lauded for going all out.

Seriously?

He gets praised for trying to f*ckin win (even tho he rested on defense).

Pathetic

[Lebron23]

We saw what MJ did when he had a supporting cast that was as bad as Lebron's was in the 2015 Finals...he and his team were swept in the first round.

The '87 Celtics were a team on the decline, going 59-23, but they held MJ to .417 shooting, and swept MJ's Bulls. MJ had Charles Oakley and his 20 ppg, 15 rpg series, as well...and he still couldn't win a game.

BTW, Lebron's second best teammate was in the '15 Finals was JR Smith, who took, BY FAR, the most FGAs of any teammate...and he shot .326 (which was miles better than Delladova and Shumpert...who shot .283 and .256.)


This

Oakley was better than Smith. Charles averaged 21 ppg, and 15 rpg. Jordan was completely shutdown by the Celtics defense. Thanks for the posts. They can check Jordan stats here.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1987-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-celtics.html

[andgar923]

Bron defenders don't get it.

People shit on his fg% because he was literally playing one on one for the majority of the series.

People say his performance was misleading because he dominated the ball like no other.

People make fun of him due to his exaggerated and obvious demonstration of being fatigued.

And people in general laugh at how badly he played defense, how a bench player that he was guarding and guarded him won MVP.

There are many reasons why he gets shitted on.

Taking great player's stats out of thin air doesn't change shit.

[andgar923]

This

Oakley was better than Smith. Charles averaged 21 ppg, and 15 rpg. Jordan was completely shutdown by the Celtics defense. Thanks for the posts. They can check Jordan stats here.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1987-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-celtics.html
Aside from some clips did you watch the series?

Go ahead and lie and say you did, nobody will believe you anyway

[Lebron23]

Aside from some clips did you watch the series?

Go ahead and lie and say you did, nobody will believe you anyway


I am just comparing their situations. The Warriors were the number 1 defensive and offensive team.

At least Jordan's casts were better than LeBron. He's playing without Irving and Love. Lebron won 2 games while MJ got swept in the 1st round.

[andgar923]

I am just comparing their situations. The Warriors were the number 1 defensive and offensive team.

At least Jordan's casts were better than LeBron. He's playing without Irving and Love. Lebron won 2 games while MJ got swept in the 1st round.
That's the thing, their situations were completely different.

You're ignoring how the Celtics played MJ, how MJ actually played, the rules, how great the Celtics actually were, etc etc


And you also buy into Laz's bullshit that the Celts was this crumbling team, but is it fair to say the Bulls were young and experimenting with new players, system and coach?

With MJ away from his true prime.

[Lebron23]

That's the thing, their situations were completely different.

You're ignoring how the Celtics played MJ, how MJ actually played, the rules, how great the Celtics actually were, etc etc


And you also buy into Laz's bullshit that the Celts was this crumbling team, but is it fair to say the Bulls were young and experimenting with new players, system and coach?

With MJ away from his true prime.

1980's MJ was the better athlete. 1990's MJ became a much better midrange shooter, and he greatly benefited playing with the Triangle offense & a prime Scottie Pippen.

[LAZERUSS]

That's the thing, their situations were completely different.

You're ignoring how the Celtics played MJ, how MJ actually played, the rules, how great the Celtics actually were, etc etc


And you also buy into Laz's bullshit that the Celts was this crumbling team, but is it fair to say the Bulls were young and experimenting with new players, system and coach?

With MJ away from his true prime.

It's difficult to rank eras. The '87 Celtics were, in terms of pure talent, were a greater team that the '15 Warriors. But we do know, that in terms of dominating their peers, the '15 Warriors were significantly better than the '87 Celtics.

And again...MJ never had a supporting cast as bad as Lebron's in the '15 Finals. This isn't even debatable. When your two best available players are Knick rejects, who are just awful in that series, well...not even close to MJ's worst. And yet, Lebron single-handedly took that POS roster to a 2-1 series lead, and then two more close losses against a 67-15 Warrior team. Meanwhile, MJ shot as poorly as Lebron did against a better defensive team...and his team was swept.

[Rocketswin2013]

:wtf:

He gets props because people are stat whores that only judge a player based on stats and not actual play.

Most people with half a brain can see his stats are misleading.

What actually amazes me the most is the fact that standards for him are so low that he gets lauded for going all out.

Seriously?

He gets praised for trying to f*ckin win (even tho he rested on defense).

Pathetic
His impact was better than his stats. LeBron secured DREB after DREB and controlled the pace of the game. He literally single-handedly took away the best part of Golden States offense(fast break) because of this. His scoring efficiency was especially sub-par because he took away one of his own strengths(transition baskets). But that's ok, because on top of this, he had nearly 9 APG with absolute garbage around him. Right around 3 TOV, too. Crazy control over the game. He did this playing 45+ minutes(and his team crumbled every time he took a rest).

His BPM and VORP were extremely high. GOAT-level high throughout the playoffs.

His impact was definitely immense, and even raw stats don't do it justice.

[superteamtheory]

39.9% worked against Chicago, and 43% worked against Atlanta, but this Iverson-ball doesn't work on the top 10% of the league (the top 3-4 teams).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmi91E3SMiI
^ Iverson ball vs. a top 1 team.

depth of Lakers (because of dynamic big 2) wears down thin 76ers by end of (fairly close) game 2, Lakers then proceed to take the rest of the series... Iverson got nothing to do with the loss.. or anything that went wrong in Philly other than maybe that 02 postgame..

as for LBJ 2015...

series vs. Boston -- he's coasting, not really interested

series vs. Bulls -- he's guarded by one of the league's premiere defenders against a very good defensive team, tries coasting for 1 more game doesn't work they lost, wakes up is a little more aggessive for game 2 gets the win, game 3 Kyrie goes down with injury so they are having to make adjustments on the fly might have affected his game, game 4 is struggling with his shot but still hits the one that matters and has a good all round game (25, 14, 8), game 5 clutch swinggame he has 38 on +.500, 12, 6, 4 and 3 (is that not propsworthy? are you not entertained?)... game 6 they were able to close the Bulls out without him needing to do more or waste energy thanks to a great game from Delly... so show me where in the Bulls series he wasn't playing well given the context..

series vs. Hawks -- again as the lone serious offensive weapon against a premiere defender/defensive team, game 1 is 31 (+.400),8,6, game 2 is 30 (+.400), 11,9, game 3 is 37 on a supbar .378 shooting with 18 & 13, he's starting to get tired... game 4 is 23 (efficient .500 shooting), 9 and 7 as the sweep is complete... where did he falter in any serious way here?

series vs. Warriors -- against the top defensive team now with elite defenders like Green and more so Iggy (2x all nba), he struggled a bit and also started to ware down under the pressure... it is The Finals after all...

game 1 - almost .500 shooting (.475) for 44 points, to go with 8 and 6 and not much defensive impact ... they almost get the win, lose in OT after he misses the potential game winner (which he hit in similar situation in Oracle in 2014) and after Kyrie goes out but I'm not sure Kyrie would have made the difference, the Cavs let this one get away on them

game 2 - 39 points but on 1 in 3 shooting isn't that impressive but he does have 16 rebounds and 11 assists, 1 steal 1 block, to go with, better all round effort, better team effort, W.

game 3 - 40 on +.400 with 12 and 8, 4 steals, 2 blocks < that is ****ing propsworthy, period. also, another W.

game 4 - Delly craps out, J.R. Smith doesn't step up to fill void, it's literally all on Bron now ... he finally cracks. ... 20 (mostly in first half) on .300, 12 rebounds and 8 assists but not much clutch production, he disappears/backs down/ runs out of energy ... or some combo of all the above ... I'll admit, I was disappointed, especially after he started the game out so well. but given the circumstances, I'll grant him one bad game (that pulled down his averages)...

game 5 - .441 shooting, 40 points, 14, 11, 1 steal, 5 fouls is a sign he was active (his man Iggy didn't go off like in other games, had a more typical 14)... he was great in this game and the team rallied around him, the Cavs just came up short / outgunned in what was IMO the Warriors' best game..

game 6 - .394 almost .400 shooting so the shooting is fine for 32 points, 18 rebounds so he's active, 9 assists (did have 6 costly turnovers tho) and 2 steals ... and he let Iggy get about 10 points too many ... *sigh* ... I mean, he is tired, there is that, but this was a more mediocre game from him ... so,

I mean, he gave 3 or 4 truly great efforts, a mixed game and a bad game ...
all things considered given circumstances he was much more great than not.

I honestly believe that if Kyrie and Love don't go down he has his 3rd ring right now.. or even if he has better supporting efforts in games 4 and 6..

On the other hand, would 93 Jordan have won games 4 and 6 anyway? It's possible yeah because Jordan's smaller frame / greater speed would have played better into the small ball / pickup game nature of the series...

[LAZERUSS]

Again, I don't know why 3Ball feels it necessary to disparage Lebron here. I don't know of any rational posters here who would claim that Lebron was greater than MJ.

BUT, Lebron is an all-time great, whose career is far from over. No need to rip the guy.

[LAZERUSS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmi91E3SMiI
^ Iverson ball vs. a top 1 team.

depth of Lakers (because of dynamic big 2) wears down thin 76ers by end of (fairly close) game 2, Lakers then proceed to take the rest of the series... Iverson got nothing to do with the loss.. or anything that went wrong in Philly other than maybe that 02 postgame..

as for LBJ 2015...

series vs. Boston -- he's coasting, not really interested

series vs. Bulls -- he's guarded by one of the league's premiere defenders against a very good defensive team, tries coasting for 1 more game doesn't work they lost, wakes up is a little more aggessive for game 2 gets the win, game 3 Kyrie goes down with injury so they are having to make adjustments on the fly might have affected his game, game 4 is struggling with his shot but still hits the one that matters and has a good all round game (25, 14, 8), game 5 clutch swinggame he has 38 on +.500, 12, 6, 4 and 3 (is that not propsworthy? are you not entertained?)... game 6 they were able to close the Bulls out without him needing to do more or waste energy thanks to a great game from Delly... so show me where in the Bulls series he wasn't playing well given the context..

series vs. Hawks -- again as the lone serious offensive weapon against a premiere defender/defensive team, game 1 is 31 (+.400),8,6 , game 2 is 30 (+.400), 11, 9, game 3 is 37 on a supbar .378 shooting with 18 & 13, he's starting to get tired... game 4 is 23 (efficient .500 shooting), 9 and 7 as the sweep is complete... where did he falter in any serious way here?

series vs. Warriors -- against the top defensive team now with elite defenders like Green and more so Iggy (2x all nba), he struggled a bit and also started to ware down under the pressure... it is The Finals after all...

game 1 - almost .500 shooting (.475) for 44 points, to go with 8 and 6 and not much defensive impact ... they almost get the win, lose in OT after he misses the potential game winner (which he hit in similar situation in Oracle in 2014) and after Kyrie goes out but I'm not sure Kyrie would have made the difference, the Cavs let this one get away on them

game 2 - 39 points but on 1 in 3 shooting isn't that impressive but he does have 16 rebounds and 11 assists, 1 steal 1 block, to go with, better all round effort, better team effort, W.

game 3 - 40 on +.400 with 12 and 8, 4 steals, 2 blocks < that is ****ing propsworthy, period. also, another W.

game 4 - Delly craps out, J.R. Smith doesn't step up to the fill void, it's literally all on Bron now ... he finally cracks. ... 20 (mostly in first half) on .300, 12 rebounds and 8 assists but not much clutch production, he disappears/backs down/ runs out of energy ... or some combo of all the above ... I'll admit, I was disappointed, especially after he started the game out so well. but given the circumstances, I'll grant him one bad game (that pulled down his averages)...

game 5 - .441 shooting, 40 points, 14, 11, 1 steal, 5 fouls is a sign he was active (his man Iggy didn't go off like in other games, had a more typical 14)... he was great in this game and the team rallied around him, the Cavs just came up short / outgunned in what was IMO the Warriors' best game..

game 6 - .394 almost .400 shooting so the shooting is fine for 32 points, 18 rebounds so he's active, 9 assists (did have 6 costly turnovers tho) and 2 steals ... and he let Iggy get about 10 points too many ... *sigh* ... I mean, he is tired, there is that, but this was a more mediocre game from him ... so,

I mean, he gave 3 or 4 truly great efforts, a mixed game and a bad game ...
all things considered given circumstances he was much more great than not.

I honestly believe that if Kyrie and Love don't go down he has his 3rd ring right now.. or even if he has better supporting efforts in games 4 and 6..

On the other hand, would 93 Jordan have won games 4 and 6 anyway? It's possible yeah because Jordan's smaller frame / greater speed would have played better into the small ball / pickup game nature of the series...

Damn!

Finally another knowledgeable poster on this forum. Welcome to a forum that so desperately needs one.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Trollsmasher]

1-9

194-198

[Marchesk]

1-9

194-198

Bird on Jordan in the 86 playoffs:


I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us," marveled Celtics ace Larry Bird. "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan.

[Trollsmasher]

Bird on Jordan in the 86 playoffs:
And Jordan quit on his team in the very next game. He was the reason the Bulls lost the series, as he took his teammates (including a 24 ppg, 60% TS 2nd option Orlando Woolridge) out of the rhythm by jacking all the shots in game 2, only to quit in game 3.

1-9

194-198

[superteamtheory]

And again...MJ never had a supporting cast as bad as Lebron's in the '15 Finals.

Well, he did, from 1985-1988 but I don't think we gain much from examining those first three years..
1988 vs. 2015 tho...

If athletic-prime MJ wasn't able to muster more than 1 win vs. an elite roster, then we have to give Bron the pass in 2015 in a similar situation...

On the other hand, the Bad Boys were a much tougher defence than anything Bron faced in 2015 and Jordan was able to shoot more efficiently than Bron is doing in 2015 ... But Jordan was also shooting / averaging less ... So I dunno, plus I don't like comparing them at different ages because experience/mileage definitely plays a part.

But in terms of roster differentials, I think those would be the years to compare and they had similar outcomes.. the one man + role players roster loses to the well balanced, deep roster..

But then in 89 it happens again, even with Pippen's improvement. (They win 1 more game tho, so it's still progress against a tough team that plays slightly dirty.) In 1990, with Phil as coach, they just plain straight up lose to the Bad Boys. (And then in 1991 they just plain straight up destroy the Bad Boys forever..) ... I think they had equal rosters for sure in 1990, debatably 89, MJ loses 2 of 3 ... and this would be one of the last times the odds were equal for him. (The last was 95 vs. Shaq & Penny, a loss, which even if he'd won might have just been the warm up for Hakeem & Drexler..) He had advantages (however slight) in 92 & 93, 94 if he had played, 96-98. ...

[Hey Yo]

Bron defenders don't get it.

People shit on his fg% because he was literally playing one on one for the majority of the series.

People say his performance was misleading because he dominated the ball like no other.

People make fun of him due to his exaggerated and obvious demonstration of being fatigued.

And people in general laugh at how badly he played defense, how a bench player that he was guarding and guarded him won MVP.

There are many reasons why he gets shitted on.

Taking great player's stats out of thin air doesn't change shit.
Exaggerated?

It was his 5th straight Finals appearance and 4th straight in leading his team in MP, scoring, rebounds and assists in the postseason.

You think it would have been better for James to have taken last season off and most of next season? Then comeback with 17 games left to try to win himself a cheap ring like MJ did?

He wouldn't have been shit on for doing that?

[3ball]

y'all crazy

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

MJ never had a supporting cast as bad as Lebron's in the '15 Finals.


He did in 1989 - Pippen was a 2nd year player, who only averaged 14/6/3 as Jordan's 2nd option.. 2nd year Grant was third option at 12/9 - everyone else was an uber-stiff.. This is just as bad as Lebron's cast in this year's playoffs.

Bottom Line: The 1989 Bulls were a lottery team without MJ.. But with him, they took the champs 6 games, just like Lebron did - they even got the same 2-1 lead (after MJ hit the game-winner in Rodman's face in Game 3).





MJ had bad supporting casts from 1985-1988


1989 and 1990 too.. Otherwise, why did Jordan's DPOY-level defense and 33/8/8 on 54% only garner 47 wins in 1989, when Lebron's inferior 28/8/7 on 49% garnered 66 wins in 2010?

This can only be due to weaker supporting cast and superior competition.. There is no way to refute this.

In 2010, Lebron's entire team were seasoned veterans, including all-star Mo Williams (16/5a) and Antawn Jamison (16/8r) - this is clearly superior to Pippen's 14/6 and Grant's 12/9, who were unreliable, 2nd year players.

Along with Mo Williams and Jamison, the Cavs had veterans Delonte, Shaq, Hickson, Zydrunas, and Varejao - these guys were seasoned vets and far superior to the caliber of young support that MJ had in 1989.. It's not even close.
.

[ShawkFactory]

He did in 1989 - Pippen was a 2nd year player, who only averaged 14/6/3 as Jordan's 2nd option.. 2nd year Grant was third option at 12/9 - everyone else was an uber-stiff.. This is just as bad as Lebron's cast in this year's playoffs.

Bottom Line: The 1989 Bulls were a lottery team without MJ.. But with him, they took the champs 6 games, just like Lebron did - they even got the same 2-1 lead (after MJ hit the game-winner in Rodman's face in Game 3).



1989 and 1990 too.. Otherwise, why did Jordan's DPOY-level defense and 33/8/8/54% only garner 47 wins in 1989, when Lebron's inferior 28/8/7/49% get 66 wins in 2010?
JJ Hickson and Delontr West were seasoned veterans? :roll:

This can only be due to weaker supporting cast and superior competition.. There is no way to refute this.

In 1989, MJ's entire team was extremely young and unreliable.. Pippen was a 2nd year player who averaged 14/6/3 as Jordan's 2nd option.

Otoh, Lebron's entire team were seasoned veterans, including all-star Mo Williams (16/5a) and Antawn Jamison (16/8r) - both superior to 2nd year Pippen's 14/6..

Along with Mo Williams and Jamison, the Cavs had veterans Delonte, Shaq, Hickson, Zydrunas, and Varejao - these guys were seasoned vets and far superior to the caliber of support that MJ had in 1989.. It's not even close.
.
JJ Hickson, Delante West, and Varejao were seasoned veterans?? :roll:

Dude, just because you type a lot doesn't mean your posts aren't filled with biased bullshit.

[superteamtheory]

Along with Mo Williams and Jamison, the Cavs had veterans Delonte, Shaq, Hickson, Zydrunas, and Varejao - these guys were seasoned vets and far superior to the caliber of support that MJ had in 1989.. It's not even close.

:no:

To me, this is one of the great myths out there, that the Cavs roster was improved somehow in 2009 or 2010...

You can't just plug in players and expect production, there has to be some sort of logic to what the team is building, team chemistry etc., I don't think the 09 or 10 Cavs had that, they were still just a one man team with role players ... Granted if it's 2005-2006 or even 2008 Shaq were talking about here I'd feel differently. But this Shaq was injury prone, washed up, like a 13 and 8 guy when healthy, not much more production there than a Horace Grant..

Big Z was more towards retirement too which is why they needed Varajeo to have another big... Hickson did give them a good hustle lift in limited use... so basically it comes back to two scoring guards, Mo and Delonte, which is redundant but at least they have shooters and an Antawn Jamison past his prime was most of all supposed to be the saviour... Jamison is basically a scorer, which I'm not so sure is what this team needed... I mean, there was no rhyme or reason to this squad, the Cavs management had no vision, no idea what they were doing, they were just trying to acquire bargain bin used talent and hope Bron would recycle spare parts into a masterpiece ...

This is why the Magic beat them. The Magic had a clear concept: Dwight as center of attention with kick outs to plenty of shooters ... and on the flip side we try to acquire a decent perimeter defender (Pietrus for example) and 3x DPOY Dwight has the paint on lockdown. LeBron averaged 38.5, 8, 8, 1 and 1 for the series and that still wasn't enough, not because he doesn't have enough talent on his team (tho they were hardly a great roster) but more so because the Magic actually have a functional basketball roster whereas the Cavs were just Bron with Mo/Delonte/Jamison/oldShaq standing around witnessing...

This is also why the Celtics beat them. The 08 & 10 Celtics were a truly great ballclub whose only weakness was maybe a lack of a true center. The Celtics were built on D and on offence a very functional design of penetration by Rondo, a postgame in K.G., shooters to kick to in Allen and Pierce and Pierce can also create his own shot in a sticky situation ... Their bench depth was solid with capable shot hitters and defenders who played their role. ... There was nothing surprising or shameful about Bron's loss to them.

At least with the Bulls they had an identity from about 89 and onward which was defensive -- guys like Grant and Pippen were being groomed to help this team become defensively excellent -- while offensively yes it was a one man show with MJ but at least he has an athletic running mate in Pippen, which I agree was inconsistent at first but by 1990 they had a really good thing going. I honestly think a young Pippen with potential is preferrable to having a washed up Antawn Jamison or other such bandaid players ...

[Kblaze8855]

Since when is Iversonball respected?

The way people talk you would think AI wasnt a lock to be a first ballot hall of famer.

Lebron put up 30/11/9 2 steals and a block over 20 games of playoff ball 16 of which were against some of the leagues best defenses(worst D they faced was 12th...and that was the first round) and people act like it was something to hate on.

Nobody who ever played the game would deserve hate for such a performance. Literally. Nobody has ever set a standard so high that leading those misfits to within a couple wins of the title and putting up 30/11/9 would be...by those standards...something to make fun of.

Which is probably why every single person involved with basketball seemed to be impressed.

The only people acting like he played poorly or somehow proved something negative about himself are a few legit idiots and a lot of people pretending to be idiots for a reaction.

NBA legends, coaches, announcers and so on who have been in the game for decades...these dudes are so enamored with Lebron they make statements beyond those of some of his biggest fans....

It isnt everyone but the haters being blind. Its haters being idiots.

Its almost always...haters being idiots. The few detractors who make a great effort to be seen over the wave of praise are pretty much always just too obsessed to see the obvious. That being...

Only the unbelievably great ever get enough praise to generate haters who have to make it their everything.

Which is why most obsessed haters are idiots. You spend all day hating on something because its incredibly praised...when its only praised so much...because it doesnt do much to justify detractors.

Greatness generates praise...praise generates haters...who then go on pretend the greatness didnt exist to begin with. The problem being....their very existence is proof of the greatness...because in a round about way...

The greatness created them.

You...the haters of Lebron James....of Kobe...of Jordan...of Wilt....are the most obvious proof they as great they are...as great as you cant accept.

If they were anything less....you wouldnt exist to hate on them.

[3ball]

JJ Hickson, Delante West, and Varejao were seasoned veterans?? :roll:


Seasoned veteran Antawn Jamison (16/8/3) > 2nd year player Horace Grant (12/9/3)

All-star and veteran Mo Williams (16/3/5) > 2nd year player Pippen (14/6/3).


Now let's look at the rest of the rosters:

Shaq's 12/7 on 57% with 1.2 blk > Cartwright's 12/7 on 48% with 0.5 blk

Varejao (9/8), Zydrunas (7/5), Hickson (9/5) > Sellers (7/3), Corzine (6/4), Davis (4/3)

Delonte, Anthony Parker = Paxson, Hodges





Dude, just because you type a lot doesn't mean your posts are filled with biased bullshit.


:facepalm .. you can't even answer a simple question without melting down

Why did Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54% only garner 47 wins in 1989, when Lebron's inferior 28/8/7 on 49% garnered 66 wins in 2010?
.

[ShawkFactory]

Seasoned veteran Antawn Jamison (16/8/3) > 2nd year player Horace Grant (12/9/3)

All-star and veteran Mo Williams (16/3/5) > 2nd year player Pippen (14/6/3).


Now let's look at the rest of the rosters:

Shaq's 12/7 on 57% with 1.2 blk > Cartwright's 12/7 on 48% with 0.5 blk

Varejao (9/8), Zydrunas (7/5), Hickson (9/5) > Sellers (7/3), Corzine (6/4), Davis (4/3)

Delonte, Anthony Parker = Paxson, Hodges



:facepalm .. you can't even answer a simple question without melting down

Why did Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54% only garner 47 wins in 1989, when Lebron's inferior 28/8/7 on 49% garnered 66 wins in 2010?
.
Lol I don't give a shit about your questions. I'm not going to engage in an argument with you.

Just pointing out that you called Hickson, West, and Varajao seasoned veterans :lol

[3ball]

09 or 10 Cavs were a one man team with role players


Not more of a 1-man team than MJ in 1989 - that's why he had to average 33/8/8 on 54%, compared to Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49%.. That's a big difference..

MJ's weaker supporting cast is why his superior stats garnered 47 wins, while Lebron's crappier stats got 66 wins.

In 1989, MJ's 2nd option was 2nd year Pippen's 14/6/3, which was worse than all-star Mo Williams 16/3/5 in 2010.. Also, 2nd year Grant was the third option at 12/9, which is worse than the 16/8 from seasoned veteran Antawn Jamison.

It's clear as day how much better Lebron's 2009 and 2010 rosters were than MJ's in 1989 - there has to be a reason why MJ's 33/8/8 on 54% only garnered 47 wins, while Lebron's inferior 28/8/7 on 49% garnered 66 wins.





You can't just plug in players and expect production


Stop making excuses.

Other than Pippen, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER WAS DIFFERENT when MJ three-peated the 2nd time.

MJ 3-peated with two completely different teams.
.

[Hey Yo]

Originally Posted by 3ball
In 1989, MJ's 2nd option was 2nd year Pippen's 14/6/3, which was worse than all-star Mo Williams 16/3/5 in 2010.. Also, 2nd year Grant was the third option at 12/9, which is worse than the 16/8 from seasoned veteran Antawn Jamison.
Pippen's and Grant's defense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mo and Jamison.

[tmacattack33]

2015 Playoff Stats:


41.7% FG

48.7% TS

105 ORtg

0.173 WS/48


Since when is Iverson-ball respected or lauded?

It's eye-popping how much lower these stats are than MJ's worst playoff run, and various other stars as well.

It's a testament to the weakness of his conference that these pathetic numbers succeed in getting a weak supporting cast to the Finals.. Those stats would NEVER work in another era - if MJ put up these numbers for an entire playoff run, he'd have gotten destroyed in his Eastern Conference and by the Pistons, rather than the competitive series his vastly superior stats allowed.

It's just like when Lebron's 25 ppg on 44% took the Cavs past the old, decrepit Pistons in 2007 - those would equal the worst stats of MJ's entire playoff career - but that shit WORKED to get Lebron past the Pistons.. :facepalm

This is what Durant and company think about the East: :rolleyes:

You listed just scoring stats (and didn't even mention overall ppg nonetheless).

Lebron made his mark with his passing and rebounding (which was very important for Cleveland since they had no Love or Varejao).

This is one of the dumbest threads ever due to the above oversight. And what's funny is that you made the opening post a damn essay :oldlol: ...you put so much effort into it, yet it was so bad... LOL

[superteamtheory]

Since when is Iversonball respected?

The way people talk you would think AI wasnt a lock to be a first ballot hall of famer.

nah, blaze, it's only 3Ball... Any real ball fan would never talk shit about A.I. ... For 3Ball there is only Jordan, nothing else.. he's not a ball fan, he's a Jordan jocker... He's probably one of those old farts who thought it was disrespectful when Iverson crossed MJ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJMi5lvQqq8

[3ball]

You listed just scoring stats (and didn't even mention overall ppg nonetheless).

Lebron made his mark with his passing and rebounding (which was very important for Cleveland since they had no Love or Varejao).

This is one of the dumbest threads ever due to the above oversight. And what's funny is that you made the opening post a damn essay :oldlol: ...you put so much effort into it, yet it was so bad... LOL
His FG% ruined his performance.. It's important because it WOULD have made a difference - if he shoots better, the Cavs WIN...

A few extra defensive rebounds is okay, but not as much as 10% more in efficiency and 10 more ppg.. That's why the whole argument saying "he led team in pts, rebs, assists" is garbage - 10 more ppg (Jordan's ppg advantage in the Finals) is worth far more than a few defensive rebounds.

When MJ won in 1993, he averaged 41/9/6 on 51%... If he shot even 49%, the Bulls lose - the stats prove that every iota of this production was needed to win because the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg for the series and exactly 113.0 ORtg (pretty amazing, but it's true - look it up)..
.

[3ball]

Its haters being idiots.


Summary:

Ultimately, both players led teams that were lottery without them (1989 Bulls and 2015 Cavs), to 6 games with the champs.

But obviously, NEITHER can take a lottery team to championship in just 1 season..

In Lebron's case, he can't do it AT ALL - he's never built a lottery team into a champion, whereas MJ has (and he didn't just build A champion.. he built two 3-peat dynasties).





I disagree (that Lebron's teams simply don't improve under his leadership)


Lebron's current Cavs team has already peaked early, just like his previous Cavs did in 2007.. His ball-dominant, athleticism-driven style doesn't foster growth in teammates, superior strategy, or an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play, so his teams never improve over the years to win a championship, LIKE MJ'S DID.

MJ's teams were eventually perceived as one of the NBA's "smart" teams that used the best strategy and had played the best brand of basketball, just like the Warriors, Mavericks and Spurs of today's game.. MJ's goat offensive sophistication enabled him to fit a goat scoring production seamlessly within an optimal, winning framework.

[Young X]

His first 2 rounds weren't impressive but the Hawks and Warriors series were pretty good despite his inefficiency.

Overall it was a very good playoff run. His runs from '12-'14 were all better though.

[ShawkFactory]

Summary:

Ultimately, both players led teams that were lottery without them (1989 Bulls and 2015 Cavs), to 6 games with the champs.

But obviously, NEITHER can take a lottery team to championship in just 1 season..

In Lebron's case, he can't do it AT ALL - he's never built a lottery team into a champion, whereas MJ has (and he didn't just build A champion.. he built two 3-peat dynasties).



Lebron's current Cavs team has already peaked early, just like his previous Cavs did in 2007.. His ball-dominant, athleticism-driven style doesn't foster growth in teammates, superior strategy, or an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play, so his teams never improve over the years to win a championship, LIKE MJ'S DID.

MJ's teams were eventually perceived as one of the NBA's "smart" teams that used the best strategy and had played the best brand of basketball, just like the Warriors, Mavericks and Spurs of today's game.. MJ's goat offensive sophistication enabled him to fit a goat scoring production seamlessly within an optimal, winning framework.
Guess what the 90s Bulls and today's Mavericks, Warriors, and Spurs have in common? Is it a coincidence that the three teams you listed have the three best coaches in the NBA?? They were the smart team because they had one of the best coaches ever.

[superteamtheory]

Guess what the 90s Bulls and today's Mavericks, Warriors, and Spurs have in common? Is it a coincidence that the three teams you listed have the three best coaches in the NBA?? They were the smart team because they had one of the best coaches ever.

no, dude, it was all MJ's leadership...
- 3Ball

[funnystuff]

1-9, never won anything without a great team and coach. GOAT tho

[Hey Yo]

Summary:

Ultimately, both players led teams that were lottery without them (1989 Bulls and 2015 Cavs), to 6 games with the champs.

But obviously, NEITHER can take a lottery team to championship in just 1 season..

In Lebron's case, he can't do it AT ALL - he's never built a lottery team into a champion, whereas MJ has (and he didn't just build A champion.. he built two 3-peat dynasties).



Lebron's current Cavs team has already peaked early, just like his previous Cavs did in 2007.. His ball-dominant, athleticism-driven style doesn't foster growth in teammates, superior strategy, or an optimal brand of basketball for the team to play, so his teams never improve over the years to win a championship, LIKE MJ'S DID.

MJ's teams were eventually perceived as one of the NBA's "smart" teams that used the best strategy and had played the best brand of basketball, just like the Warriors, Mavericks and Spurs of today's game.. MJ's goat offensive sophistication enabled him to fit a goat scoring production seamlessly within an optimal, winning framework.
LeBron's Cavs didn't have the luxury of having 3 lottery picks (Sellers, Pippen, Grant in 86 and 87) like MJ and the Bulls did. Plus MJ had both Pippen and Grant until 1994

Cavs had 1 lottery pick (Luke Jackson) the first 7yrs LeBron played for them. Who were the other 2 staples in the Cavs starting lineup (year after year) after LeBron was drafted?

[Smoke117]

1-9 and had to be carried by Pippen against the knicks just to get to the 93 finals.

[3ball]

no, dude, it was all MJ's leadership...
- 3Ball
To win a championship using the triangle, you need the best post player in the game, or very close to it - first it was MJ.... then Shaq... then Kobe/Pau.

And the post players must be quick decision-makers on the post.

But Lebron only posts up 8.6% of the time, which is bottom of the league... His post PPP and FG% are 85th and 125th respectively:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1

The reality is that Lebron is not a post player - he's a ball-dominating point guard.. The stats show that Lebron and Harden are the only non-point guards that dominate the ball as much or more than starting point guards.

But the triangle doesn't use a point guard or allow point-guard-level ball-domination.. If Lebron were on the Bulls, he'd bolt as soon as he found out he wouldn't get to play point guard anymore, like he has since he was in junior high.

[ShawkFactory]

To win a championship using the triangle, you need the best post player in the game, or very close to it - first it was MJ.... then Shaq... then Kobe/Pau.

And the post players must be quick decision-makers on the post.

But Lebron only posts up 8.6% of the time, which is bottom of the league... His post PPP and FG% are 85th and 125th respectively:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1

The reality is that Lebron is not a post player - he's a ball-dominating point guard.. The stats show that Lebron and Harden are the only non-point guards that dominate the ball as much or more than starting point guards.

But the triangle doesn't use a point guard or allow point-guard-level ball-domination.. If Lebron were on the Bulls, he'd bolt as soon as he found out he wouldn't get to play point guard anymore, like he has since he was in junior high.
:roll:

Literally has nothing to do with what he or I said.

[3ball]

:roll:

Literally has nothing to do with what he or I said.
yeah it does - Phil can institute all the great strategy he wants but without one of the league's best post players (MJ, Shaq, Pau), it won't work.

The stats show Lebron is a below-average post player and nowhere near one of the best post players in the league, so he wouldn't work in the triangle.

Furthermore, the triangle doesn't use a point guard, or anyone that dominates the ball as much as point guards - again, the stats show that Lebron is the only non-point guard that dominates the ball as much as point guards - THIS DOESN'T WORK in the triangle.

Does this make sense?... You can have all the great strategy you want, but you need the players with the capacity to EXECUTE that strategy - that would be MJ, Shaq, Pau, and Kobe - guys that are elite post player who don't have to dominate the ball.

[ShawkFactory]

yeah it does - Phil can institute all the great strategy he wants but without one of the league's best post players (MJ, Shaq, Pau), it won't work.

The stats show Lebron is a below-average post player and nowhere near one of the best post players in the league, so he wouldn't work in the triangle.

Furthermore, the triangle doesn't use a point guard, or anyone that dominates the ball as much as point guards - again, the stats show that Lebron is the only non-point guard that dominates the ball as much as point guards - THIS DOESN'T WORK in the triangle.

Does this make sense?... You can have all the great strategy you want, but you need the players with the capacity to EXECUTE that strategy - that would be MJ, Shaq, Pau, and Kobe - guys that are elite post player who don't have to dominate the ball.
So it was Phils strategy (that michael worked perfectly in) that allowed championships. What if michael didn't have Phils strategy, perfectly planned to take advantage of a skillset like that?

[superteamtheory]

Not more of a 1-man team than MJ in 1989 - that's why he had to average 33/8/8 on 54%, compared to Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49%.. That's a big difference..

8 (last number of those statlines) is not a lot more than 7. ... So it's about 5-7 more points MJ is responsible for on only 6% better shooting. ...

That is a difference, yes. But a "big difference" ... ? In your world of course it is..

A big difference to me would be: 38/8/8 vs. Bron's line on the same % or better OR 33/8/8 on 60% ... Those statlines would be worlds apart (even as boards and assists are about the same)..

It's not that I think LBJ is better (per se, I mean he's not done yet), it's that I don't think they are worlds apart. But you do. Can I ask you then, who would you rank in your top 5 after Jordan? I'm curious..

[3ball]

So it was Phils strategy (that michael worked perfectly in) that allowed championships. What if michael didn't have Phils strategy, perfectly planned to take advantage of a skillset like that?
MJ's skillset fit into any offense.

MJ put up the best stats of all time in Doug Collins' offense, playing off-ball mostly, but also as a point guard for 24 games.. As a point guard, he averaged 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) on 51%, including a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games).

That's as well as anyone's ever played at point guard, and he was already the best SG ever - how's that for versatility.

Otoh, where would Lebron's stats be in the 2015 Finals if Blatt didn't run clearout for him every possession?.. He would never have gotten 35 shot attempts so he can reach 35 ppg.
.

[ShawkFactory]

MJ's skillset fit into any offense.

MJ put up the best stats of all time in Doug Collins' offense, playing off-ball mostly, but also as a point guard for 24 games.. As a point guard, he averaged 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) on 51%, including a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games).

That's as well as anyone's ever played at point guard, and he was already the best SG ever - how's that for versatility.

Otoh, where would Lebron's stats be in the 2015 Finals if Blatt didn't run clearout for him every possession?.. He would never have gotten 35 shot attempts so he can reach 35 ppg.
.
There was no better option. If there was Blatt wasn't a good enough coach like Phil to find it.

Plus you're backtracking. You say Michael caused championships with his style of play and then proceeded to list his numbers from a non-championship team once I questioned if Phils offense is the true reason for Michael being a champion.

Plus plus, bron has had stat lines over 11 games similar to that before.

[3ball]

[B]So it's about 5-7 more points MJ is responsible for on only 6% better shooting. ...


That's it... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: ....

You win the award for dumbest poster.. How many games are decided by 5-7 points?

MOST.... THE VAST MAJORITY.... Plus the big gap in efficiency (54% to 49%)

But again - you've addressed the elephant in the room - how did Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49% win him 66 games in 2009, while MJ's superior 33/8/8 on 54% only win him 47 games?

[ShawkFactory]

That's it... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: ....

You win the award for dumbest poster.. How many games are decided by 5-7 points?

MOST.... THE VAST MAJORITY.... Plus the big gap in efficiency (54% to 49%)

But again - you've addressed the elephant in the room - how did Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49% win him 66 games in 2009, while MJ's superior 33/8/8 on 54% only win him 47 games?
Jordan TS%: .614
Lebron TS%: 604

Not much of a difference

[Hey Yo]

MJ's skillset fit into any offense.

MJ put up the best stats of all time in Doug Collins' offense, playing off-ball mostly, but also as a point guard for 24 games.. As a point guard, he averaged 30/9/11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1989/#322-345-sum:pgl_basic) on 51%, including a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games (http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/01/michael-jordan-point-guard-in-1989-posted-triple-double-10-of-11-games).

That's as well as anyone's ever played at point guard, and he was already the best SG ever - how's that for versatility.

Otoh, where would Lebron's stats be in the 2015 Finals if Blatt didn't run clearout for him every possession?.. He would never have gotten 35 shot attempts so he can reach 35 ppg.
.
But those padded stats and style didn't mean anything cause it didn't get the Bulls a championship or even a Finals appearance.

Once Phil got there and taught Michael how to "share" the ball (because he was neglecting Pippen's and Grant's talent) is when the Bulls started winning rings

Those are facts

[3ball]

I questioned if Phils offense is the true reason for Michael being a champion.


Phil's offense isn't the reason MJ scored so many points or had great stats - we know that for a fact..

Otoh, it was MJ's ability to score so many points that made the offense work..

More specifically, it was his ability to score so many points within the triangle while not diminishing his teammates stats that enabled the team to play to capacity and win championships.. :confusedshrug:





There was no better option (than to let Lebron isolate)


This is false - Lebron only shot 33.1% on isolations - the Warriors EXPLOITED Lebron's poor isolation ability by letting him isolate over and over.

It's always the best defensive strategy to let someone take a 33% shot over and over.

It's similar to how teams let Deandre shoot FT's - hack-a-Deandre... The Warriors strategy was to letta-Lebron-isolate.. :lol ... but realtalk

Keep in mind that Lebron isolates more than anything else he does - so his poor FG% on those isolations was the biggest factor reducing his overall FG% - since isolation ability drove Lebron's FG%, we know Jordan's goat isolation ability would've yielded a much better overall efficiency on all those isolations.. It's all but statistical FACT.





Plus plus, bron has had stat lines over 11 games similar to that before.


no - his stats were 28/8/10 over 11 games.. a far cry from 31/9/11 over 24 games.

of course, lebron fans are used to settling for less, and then calling it the same.. this is standard procedure for Lebron fans.
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[nzahir]

Ive figured it all out, 3ball actually hates MJ and acts so stupid so he brings MJ a bad name and people will actually like Lebron more.
3ball is really a lebron fan and has lebron in his top 3.

3ball real top 3
1. KAJ
2. Russell
3. Lebron

[superteamtheory]

Ive figured it all out, 3ball actually hates MJ and acts so stupid so he brings MJ a bad name and people will actually like Lebron more.
3ball is really a lebron fan and has lebron in his top 3.

3ball real top 3
1. KAJ
2. Russell
3. Lebron

I asked him what his next 4 are after Jordan and got no response...

I think he's just your standard bland one-track mind Jordan jocker ..

but I'll ask him one more time while we're all here one last time... what are your other top guys 3Ball?

[nzahir]

I asked him what his next 4 are after Jordan and got no response...

I think he's just your standard bland one-track mind Jordan jocker ..

but I'll ask him one more time while we're all here one last time... what are your other top guys 3Ball?
He never replies when he knows he is in trouble or the question negatively affects his point of view

[gilalizard]

1-9

Literally nobody gives a solitary **** about that "stat", except for LeBron stans.

And nobody ever will.

[Trollsmasher]

Literally nobody gives a solitary **** about that "stat", except for LeBron stans.

And nobody ever will.
1-9

194-198

[gilalizard]

1-9

194-198

Here's a couple Finals relevant stats, that people besides LeBron stans actually do care about:

6/6
5/7
2/6

Or something actually relevant today...

28% from outside five feet while single covered. Steve Kerr's coaching masterpiece. I'd suspect his fellow NBA coaches will care quite a bit about this stat in the future.

[Megabox!]

Here's a couple Finals relevant stats, that people besides LeBron stans actually do care about:

6/6
5/7
2/6

Or something actually relevant today...

28% from outside five feet while single covered. Steve Kerr's coaching masterpiece. I'd suspect his fellow NBA coaches will care quite a bit about this stat in the future.
LOL @ coaching masterpiece. The master plan was "let's just hold off their rally for 3 quarters, they'll eventually get really tired by the 4th because they only have 6 f*cking guys playing this whole series." 2015 finals in a nutshell

[Trollsmasher]

Here's a couple Finals relevant stats, that people besides LeBron stans actually do care about:

6/6
5/7
2/6

Or something actually relevant today...

28% from outside five feet while single covered. Steve Kerr's coaching masterpiece. I'd suspect his fellow NBA coaches will care quite a bit about this stat in the future.
Why couldn't "the GOAT" achieve a career winning record without Scottie Pippen in the lineup?

[superteamtheory]

Why couldn't "the GOAT" achieve a career winning record without Scottie Pippen in the lineup?

Because the lineup was ****?

85 is a bit odd that the Bulls couldn't overcome the Bucks but okay, it was his first year, their first year with him and in playoff position, so you chalk it up to inexperience.. if they did advance they'd eventually run into the 76ers or Celtics anyway.. stop sign.

Besides an Oakley here or Woolridge there, it was just MJ and spare parts from 85-88ish.. and there's no way that's gonna beat a deep, beautifully constructed Celtics roster in 86 or 87 (maybe not even 88?)..

Jordan absolutely could have won rings on the right squad during those years... There was never really a point where he wasn't a contender, just years where he had weaker rosters or came up a bit short...

[Trollsmasher]

Because the lineup was ****?

85 is a bit odd that the Bulls couldn't overcome the Bucks but okay, it was his first year, their first year with him and in playoff position, so you chalk it up to inexperience.. if they did advance they'd eventually run into the 76ers or Celtics anyway.. stop sign.

Besides an Oakley here or Woolridge there, it was just MJ and spare parts from 85-88ish.. and there's no way that's gonna beat a deep, beautifully constructed Celtics roster in 86 or 87 (maybe not even 88?)..

Jordan absolutely could have won rings on the right squad during those years... There was never really a point where he wasn't a contender, just years where he had weaker rosters or came up a bit short...
I am not even talking the playoffs exclusively

Just a career record

194-198

[sdot_thadon]

Since when is Iversonball respected?

The way people talk you would think AI wasnt a lock to be a first ballot hall of famer.

Lebron put up 30/11/9 2 steals and a block over 20 games of playoff ball 16 of which were against some of the leagues best defenses(worst D they faced was 12th...and that was the first round) and people act like it was something to hate on.

Nobody who ever played the game would deserve hate for such a performance. Literally. Nobody has ever set a standard so high that leading those misfits to within a couple wins of the title and putting up 30/11/9 would be...by those standards...something to make fun of.

Which is probably why every single person involved with basketball seemed to be impressed.

The only people acting like he played poorly or somehow proved something negative about himself are a few legit idiots and a lot of people pretending to be idiots for a reaction.

NBA legends, coaches, announcers and so on who have been in the game for decades...these dudes are so enamored with Lebron they make statements beyond those of some of his biggest fans....

It isnt everyone but the haters being blind. Its haters being idiots.

Its almost always...haters being idiots. The few detractors who make a great effort to be seen over the wave of praise are pretty much always just too obsessed to see the obvious. That being...

Only the unbelievably great ever get enough praise to generate haters who have to make it their everything.

Which is why most obsessed haters are idiots. You spend all day hating on something because its incredibly praised...when its only praised so much...because it doesnt do much to justify detractors.

Greatness generates praise...praise generates haters...who then go on pretend the greatness didnt exist to begin with. The problem being....their very existence is proof of the greatness...because in a round about way...

The greatness created them.

You...the haters of Lebron James....of Kobe...of Jordan...of Wilt....are the most obvious proof they as great they are...as great as you cant accept.

If they were anything less....you wouldnt exist to hate on them.
/thread

[knicksman]

Its easier to be 2/6 than 6/6

[knicksman]

But those padded stats and style didn't mean anything cause it didn't get the Bulls a championship or even a Finals appearance.

Once Phil got there and taught Michael how to "share" the ball (because he was neglecting Pippen's and Grant's talent) is when the Bulls started winning rings

Those are facts


And if you werent dumb, you wouldve realized that lebron is doing it for his entire career, thus 2/6

[SyRyanYang]

I dont like Lebron, but I respected his effort these Playoffs. He went down swinging. If he would do it every PO, I would respect him way more, too bad he doesnt.

Are we going to ignore the fact he played poor defense all season along? If you call that swinging, he was probably not aiming for the opponents.

[3ball]

Some crazies in here..

This thread points out Lebron's 35 fga to get 35 points is BAD, and everyone's like "but he averaged 35 ppg"
.

[3ball]

:lol

I accidentally deleted my post

[3ball]

NBA legends, coaches, announcers and so on who have been in the game for decades...these dudes are so enamored with Lebron they make statements beyond those of some of his biggest fans....


Only the ones lucky enough to have job in pro basketball in their post-playing career.





Which is probably why every single person involved with basketball seemed to be impressed.


Some feel that Lebron's inefficient, Iverson-level offense is the best thing going in this weak era.. Whoop-ti-do.. But many aren't impressed, as they shouldn't be.

Also, make no mistake - every single person would snap-trade 3-4 defensive rebounds for 10% more efficiency

(and stamina so Lebron doesn't get "gassed" in critical game 4 at home.. don't get mad - those were his words and explanation).





Lebron put up 30/11/9 2 steals and a block over 20 games of playoff ball

Nobody who ever played the game would deserve hate for such a performance. Literally.


Don't be naive.. MJ got hate for averaging 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51.0% in the 1989 playoffs and taking the champs to 6 games - that's exactly what Lebron did in these playoffs, while averaging 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7%.

MJ has a 5 point scoring edge and a 10 point efficiency edge, while Lebron has a 4 rebound edge and 1.6 assist edge.. MJ's edges are more valuable for a team's #1 scoring option.

In 1990, MJ averaged 36.8/7.2/6.8 on 51.4% in the playoffs, and took the champion Pistons to 7 games this time.. Again, those stats are better than Lebron's in these playoffs, unless you're disregarding the 10 point efficiency gap and 7 point scoring gap.

Tbh, MJ's career playoff stats 33.4/6.4/5.7 on 48.7% and his career playoff stats thru 30 years old of 34.7/6.7/6.6 on 50.1% - are better than Lebron's 30.1/11.3/8.5 apg on 41.7% in these playoffs... Again, unless you're disregarding the 10 point efficiency gap and the 5 point scoring gap (and goat 4th quarter scoring (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381330) and clutch).





Lebron, MJ, Magic, Kareem, Kobe - if they were anything less....haters wouldnt exist to hate on them.


Why do people say stuff like "why are you even comparing mj and lebron" when you post stuff like your post above - by mentioning lebron and MJ together in the specific way you did, you clearly imply they're on the same level - it's basic English language and reading comprehension..

So THAT'S why people compare them - because there are people out there saying they're on the same level.. Also, people forget the obvious elephant in the room - he plays in a very weak conference.. Put him in the West, and he would've made 2 Finals thus far in his entire 11 year career (2/6 against the West means he would only make it through the West twice - pretty massive argument in favor of MJ, since MJ makes it thru the West 6/6 times).

Of course, the funny thing is that Lebron's unadjustable, ball-dominant style is perfect for stat-padding alongside lesser teammates - but a ball-dominant, stat-padding style (i.e. slow isolation every play.. waive everybody off, etc.) is not the optimal style to beat ANY team, especially alongside lesser teammates.. Lesser teammates need a system or advanced strategy that can get them opportunities.. Lebron-ball doesn't do that.. It's a gimmick, which by definition, gets easily solved (and destroyed, tbh).
.

[ShawkFactory]

Only the ones lucky enough to have job in pro basketball in their post-playing career.



Some feel that Lebron's inefficient, Iverson-level offense is the best thing going in this weak era.. Whoop-ti-do.. But many aren't impressed, as they shouldn't be.

Also, make no mistake - every single person would snap-trade 3-4 defensive rebounds for 10% more efficiency

(and stamina so Lebron doesn't get "gassed" in critical game 4 at home.. don't get mad - those were his words and explanation).



Don't be naive.. MJ got hate for averaging 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51.0% in the 1989 playoffs and taking the champs to 6 games - that's exactly what Lebron did in these playoffs, while averaging 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7%.

MJ has a 5 point scoring edge and a 10 point efficiency edge, while Lebron has a 4 rebound edge and 1.6 assist edge.. MJ's edges are more valuable for a team's #1 scoring option.

In 1990, MJ averaged 36.8/7.2/6.8 on 51.4% in the playoffs, and took the champion Pistons to 7 games this time.. Again, those stats are better than Lebron's in these playoffs, unless you're disregarding the 10 point efficiency gap and 7 point scoring gap.

Tbh, MJ's career playoff stats 33.4/6.4/5.7 on 48.7% and his career playoff stats thru 30 years old of 34.7/6.7/6.6 on 50.1% - are better than Lebron's 30.1/11.3/8.5 apg on 41.7% in these playoffs... Again, unless you're disregarding the 10 point efficiency gap and the 5 point scoring gap (and goat 4th quarter scoring (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=381330) and clutch).



Why do people say stuff like "why are you even comparing mj and lebron" when you post stuff like your post above - by mentioning lebron and MJ together in the specific way you did, you clearly imply they're on the same level - it's basic English language and reading comprehension..

So THAT'S why people compare them - because there are people out there saying they're on the same level.. Also, people forget the obvious elephant in the room - he plays in a very weak conference.. Put him in the West, and he would've made 2 Finals thus far in his entire 11 year career (2/6 against the West means he would only make it through the West twice - pretty massive argument in favor of MJ, since MJ makes it thru the West 6/6 times).

Of course, the funny thing is that Lebron's unadjustable, ball-dominant style is perfect for stat-padding alongside lesser teammates - but a ball-dominant, stat-padding style (i.e. slow isolation every play.. waive everybody off, etc.) is not the optimal style to beat ANY team, especially alongside lesser teammates.. Lesser teammates need a system or advanced strategy that can get them opportunities.. Lebron-ball doesn't do that.. It's a gimmick, which by definition, gets easily solved (and destroyed, tbh).
.
He's implying they're both great basketball players, not that they're on the exact same level. When talking about all time greats should he mention Kobe, Lebron, and bird and then create a new sentence for Jordan? Stop being obtuse

[3ball]

[/COLOR][/COLOR]


He's implying they're both great basketball players, not that they're on the exact same level.


Who cares.. This thread is about how Lebron's offensive performance in the 2015 Finals was inefficient and equivalent to Iverson in 2001 Finals.

To Lebron's credit, he led a team that would be lottery without him to 6 games with the champs, but MJ did that too in 1989 and 1990, with better stats:

Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51.0% in the 1989 playoffs are better than Lebron's 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs - MJ has a 5 point scoring edge and a 10 point efficiency edge, while Lebron has a 4 rebound edge and 1.6 assist edge.. MJ's edges are more valuable for a team's #1 scoring option.

In 1990, MJ averaged 36.8/7.2/6.8 on 51.4% in the playoffs, and took the champion Pistons to 7 games this time.. Again, those stats are better than Lebron's in these playoffs, unless you're disregarding the 10 point efficiency gap and 7 point scoring gap.





Stop being obtuse


Stop ignoring the elephant in the room.

Why did MJ's 33/8/8 on 54% only garner the Bulls 47 wins in 1989, while Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49% garnered the Cavs 66 wins in 2010?... That's just how much better Lebron's supporting cast was and how much weaker his era, conference and competition was... Plain and simple.

Lebron's 2009 and 2010 supporting casts destroy MJ's 1989 cast.. 2nd year Pippen's 14/6/3 was the second option, which was less than veteran and all-star Mo Williams 16/3/5..

2nd year Grant's 12/9 is less than seasoned veteran Antawn Jamison's 16/8..

The Cavs also had Varejao, Shaq, Delonte, Hickson and Zydrunas, who are all a completely different caliber of player from the remaining Bulls players.. We know that SOMETHING has to explain gap between 66 wins and 47.. It can't be magic and MJ had the better stats - so it has to be a superior supporting cast and weaker competition.
.