Do you take people's basketball ability in account???

[sundizz]

Do you take people's basketball ability in account when they give an opinion?

For example, I've heard on here a few times that CavsFTL is a pretty awful basketball player in real life (video somewhere?)

Does that make you respect his opinion on stuff less?

Just curious.

For the record, I definitely do.

Even if you are NBA good - like Dwight - but don't play a cerebral game I don't really respect their opinion. Doesn't mean they can't dominate, just that I don't really respect their understanding of the game. They dominate through physical ability and repetition rather than an innnate/learned understanding of the actual game (e.g., Bird)

[DMV2]

Jordan was the GOAT player...

As a GM, President, owner..drafting players....one of the WOAT.

[ShawkFactory]

You can be 5'8 and unathletic and still have an innate understanding of the game.

[uber]

For the record, I definitely do.


not every reporter/fan/or whatever can be a pro or at least good at basketball .. it doesn't make people less "credible" when it comes to basketball knowledge ..

i would say jalen rose was a decent basketball player and i still don't care what he has to say ..

[AboutBuckets]

I could probably beat Tex Winter in one-on-one. He has forgotten more about the actual game of basketball (not useless Wilt stories) than anyone on this forum likely has ever learned

[DMAVS41]

No

[K Xerxes]

When the guy with arguably the greatest on court bball IQ of all time has a strong history of flip flopping based on the flavor of the week, I don't really take it into account.

[KendrickPerkins]

When the guy with arguably the greatest on court bball IQ of all time has a strong history of flip flopping based on the flavor of the week, I don't really take it into account.
Franklin the Tank > Justin Weenlow

[smoovegittar]

I think you have to, to a degree. I know from experience how demanding a game it is, and only players understand subtleties. That doesn't mean you can't have a brilliant basketball mind if you haven't played...just the odds are against it.

[GimmeThat]

It's a factor. And I think it might make the situation worse by overtly trying to learn the technical stuff from the interpretation through regular conversations.

But in terms of observing, and trying to form decisions from that. Player history comes into play in my mind.

Which probably doesn't make me the best "hiring" employer, because I haven't done or ordered my fair share of background investigation.

[DCL]

there are some guys who like to compare eras or players. but they're so blind to the game that they can't even observe the speed difference of game play. they can't even break down the defensive differences. they don't even know if a basketball move is bad play or not. all they know is, if the ball goes in, it's good, if it doesn't, it's bad. they have very simpleton ways of looking at the game. and their whole analysis is based on only stats, but they are completely blind and have no eyes for what's going on. and that lack of knowledge has so much to do with being a weak ass clueless player in real life.

[KendrickPerkins]

there are some guys who like to compare eras or players. but they're so blind to the game that they can't even observe the speed difference of game play. they can't even break down the defensive differences. they don't even know if a basketball move is bad play or not. all they know is, if the ball goes in, it's good, if it doesn't, it's bad. they have very simpleton ways of looking at the game. and their whole analysis is based on only stats, but they are completely blind and have no eyes for what's going on. and that lack of knowledge has so much to them with being a weak ass clueless player in real life.
Bingo.

CavsFTW is a perfect example of this.

[triangleoffense]

Yes in terms of if they played for any type of organized, structured basketball. A person can be 5'10, unathletic but still know a great deal because he had good middle school, high school coaches that taught him the game, etc.

Versus someone who just picked up the game in their driveway or playing streetball with their friends..

For someone who has done quite a bit of both I would take the person in the first scenario way more seriously.

[inclinerator]

When the guy with arguably the greatest on court bball IQ of all time has a strong history of flip flopping based on the flavor of the week, I don't really take it into account.
who magic?

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

No.

It's pseudo appeal-to-authority logical fallacy.

[Marchesk]

Bingo.

CavsFTW is a perfect example of this.

If by that you mean he does a lot of research. Funny how Cavs doesn't get called out by guys who've been watching the game since before Kobe and Lebron.

[KendrickPerkins]

If by that you mean he does a lot of research. Funny how Cavs doesn't get called out by guys who've been watching the game since before Kobe and Lebron.
Knowing the history of the game doesn't mean you know winning basketball. There's a reason he doesn't talk about the current game, and it's because he has no idea what's going on or how to evaluate who the best is.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a purpose. He posts some interesting stuff from time to time, but he knows **** all about the game. His lack of basketball talent corresponds with his lack of basketball insight.

Just because you were around to watch 80's doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

I know how to evaluate players better than you, and it's not even close. You're probably 20+ years older than me but it doesn't matter. I'm more talented than you, mentally and physically.

[PistonsFan#21]

Knowing the history of the game doesn't mean you know winning basketball. There's a reason he doesn't talk about the current game, and it's because he has no idea what's going on or how to evaluate who the best is.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a purpose. He posts some interesting stuff from time to time, but he knows **** all about the game. His lack of basketball talent corresponds with his lack of basketball insight.

Just because you were around to watch 80's doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

I know how to evaluate players better than you, and it's not even close. You're probably 20+ years older than me but it doesn't matter. I'm more talented than you, mentally and physically.

Actually thats exactly what it means...why do you think most of the great players said they studied tape of legends from the past?

[KendrickPerkins]

Actually thats exactly what it means...why do you think most of the great players said they studied tape of legends from the past?
Yet all he does it post stats and articles.

About a guy who rarely won. Hmmm.

But no, you're missing the point because you're an idiot. If I were to watch the 70's I'd know who the best players were.

The problem with someone like CavsFTW is he can watch basketball and not know who the best is or the little subtle things that make winning possible. Him and I can watch the same game and have completely different views. He doesn't know what's going on, all he has is stats and articles.

[Smoke117]

This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read. If players took into account basketball ability...half the coaches wouldn't even be listened to.

[KendrickPerkins]

This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read. If players took into account basketball ability...half the coaches wouldn't even be listened to.
Most, if not all basketball coaches played at at least a high school level. And they don't just give anybody an NBA head coaching job. You have to prove you actually know whats going on before they hire. I think the players know and respect that.

Nobody's hiring CavsFTW in any coaching position because the players would be teaching HIM how to play and what to do. :oldlol:

[TylerOO]

Yeah I do. Not on here because I've never seen any of you play, but I'm sure 99% couldn't make a foul shot if they had 10 tries.

But in real life, definitely.

[Marchesk]

Nobody's hiring CavsFTW in any coaching position because the players would be teaching HIM how to play and what to do. :oldlol:

Is anyone hiring Bill Simmons to coach?

[KendrickPerkins]

Is anyone hiring Bill Simmons to coach?
Bill Simmons has proven to have an understanding of the game though.

CavsFTW never has...

It's all Wilt talk because of his fascination with athletic traits and stats. He knows nothing about the current game.

I'd pay to see his top 10 list of today...

There's a reason he stays away. Someone like you is too dumb and biased to see why.

I dont know much about you but im starting to get the vibe that you are one of the guys im talking about, or CavsFTW himself. Which would be sad.

Either way you probably know nothing and have no talent, which is painful for you to read but the flatout truth.

[I Love the Game]

Knowing how to do something does not mean you're great at critiquing it and visa versa. Plenty of people who are good at music who can't teach it well or identify talent the same way a music business executive can when scouting for marketable talent.

It really does go both ways - often times the best teachers/executives/critics are people who can't do it at the same level of people who are actually doing it. Kinda interesting how it all works when you think about it.

[sundizz]

I think a lot of you are reading my original post wrong - my fault. I used very shizzy examples.

What i really mean is that I play basketball all the time. I've played competitively since I was 5 and haven't stopped (29 now).

However, i'm not even close to playing NBA or even competitive college level ball.

Yet, I consider myself to have an excellent analytical grasp of the game. Whether this is innate or learned is hard to say. Some people seem to play all their lives and not have it.

Some people can be great, even NBA level players without having this (kobe, jordan, russ). You don't necessarily need this ability to be a great player (size, shooting skill, defensive instincts are all equally important).

However, some players do have it. Larry Bird, Duncan, Nash, Curry, Walton, Diaw.

When playing with other players most people seem to only be able to handle small details and their individual roles. Rarely, there are those (like me) that see the bigger picture constantly while playing. I don't talk to people I play with regularly though in depth about bball topics.

What I see from this forum often is that people analyze the same way. They seem to only be able to only understand a small portion of a big pie when it comes to evaluating a player. This seems to stem from their real life basketball skills. Leads me to believe if you are a low skilled, narrow sighted player in real life you prolly also suck at analysis. Again, not equating this with your impact. You could be a great rebounder and 3 ball maker but still be a low skilled narrow sighted player.

[KendrickPerkins]

I think a lot of you are reading my original post wrong - my fault. I used very shizzy examples.

What i really mean is that I play basketball all the time. I've played competitively since I was 5 and haven't stopped (29 now).

However, i'm not even close to playing NBA or even competitive college level ball.

Yet, I consider myself to have an excellent analytical grasp of the game. Whether this is innate or learned is hard to say. Some people seem to play all their lives and not have it.

Some people can be great, even NBA level players without having this (kobe, jordan, russ). You don't necessarily need this ability to be a great player (size, shooting skill, defensive instincts are all equally important).

However, some players do have it. Larry Bird, Duncan, Nash, Curry, Walton, Diaw.

When playing with other players most people seem to only be able to handle small details and their individual roles. Rarely, there are those (like me) that see the bigger picture constantly while playing. I don't talk to people I play with regularly though in depth about bball topics.

What I see from this forum often is that people analyze the same way. They seem to only be able to only understand a small portion of a big pie when it comes to evaluating a player. This seems to stem from their real life basketball skills. Leads me to believe if you are a low skilled, narrow sighted player in real life you prolly also suck at analysis. Again, not equating this with your impact. You could be a great rebounder and 3 ball maker but still be a low skilled narrow sighted player.
Of course you'll take it into account. If a guy who does nothing but shoot in a pickup game and doesn't play D and who yells at teammates for mistakes - well...

there's a reason his favorite player is kobe. (kobe does play D and is a winner, it's not a knock on kobe, but he tends to attract the stupid fans)

Very rarely will a guy who plays selfish losing basketball be someone who knows the game off the court. Because why wouldn't they implement their knowledge? They play that way because they're oblivious to the big picture of winning as a team.

[Millslapped]

KP going in. Holy shit.

[Kobe_6/8]

It depends. If they think they can play, then yeah I do take their ability into account. Otherwise no, tons of teams hire guys who never played but have a genius understanding of the game.

[jstern]

I take their intelligence, logic, and critical thinking into account. That's the most important aspect in a person's opinion.

Playing basketball does give you an ability to be able to relate and understand certain situations. You don't necessarily have to be great. But at the same time most people that I see play have really low basketball IQ, but think they're really good because they over dribble under their legs, etc.

I would say that the majority of people on ISH has a better basketball IQ than the average person because they're exposed to so much in depth basketball talk. But out of everybody on ISH, I would say that around 3 posters really have a sound basketball mind. And the fact of the matter is that even though most think that they know a lot about the game, most people are just extremely ignorant and have a bias mind.

[Fowl]

I could probably take on 20 year old Greg Poppovich from the 70s.

[KendrickPerkins]

I could probably take on 20 year old Greg Poppovich from the 70s.
http://cdn4.everyjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/young-gregg-popovich.jpg

Looks intimidating though.

[Rake2204]

I sometimes take people's basketball ability into account, but the situations in which I do almost always vary, meaning it's never a flat "He can't make a layup, so he must know nothing" or "He played DI so he must know more than everyone who didn't." It can sometimes be one element of indication.

There are certain times where I read or hear a person talk and it becomes immediately clear that the person attempting to make a point has a very limited or poor hands-on history with the game, whether it be regarding rules or on-court decisions made by players they're watching, things that probably would have never been said if they had played at even a locally high level.

On the other hand, I've known some incredibly effective and high level players that actually knew much less about the game than one would imagine. Sometimes players can just play, even while largely oblivious to the world around them (especially if they're 6'8'' with a 7'2'' wingspan).

So yeah, knowledge of the game is not always directly correlated to skill level one way or another. However, when there's a significant void of even minimal official experience with the game, that can oftentimes show itself more readily in discussions (which is obviously so).

Perhaps the less experienced just have more to make up for in terms of learning or knowing the game, with voids often manifesting themselves in the absence of well-guided immersive research.

[And1AllDay]

For me, I look at it like this. If you're not good at playing basketball/athletic then it won't undermine your opinion. But if you are good at the sport and have played (NBA/college level) then it adds merit to your opinion.

[oarabbus]

OP is a ****ing retard if he takes basketball ability into account. He's basically saying he'd take JR Smith's basketball opinion over Gregg Popovich. Dumbest shit ever.

[kshutts1]

I take thought processes into account. If the poster sounds like they know what they're talking about, present things in a coherent manner, etc, then I take that into more consideration.

I think it would be more interesting to discuss posting STYLES and how we view those opinions. I never cared for Bizil's opinion just because the style in which he posts is so difficult to read... then I read some of his stuff and, while I don't agree with everything he says, he knows more than I gave him credit.

[RidonKs]

god no

it's worth briefly noting where the opinion comes from

but with shaquille o'neal and gary payton getting airwaves on the regular to spew nonsense, two all time great players one of whom was heady and gritty on an mj level, it's easy to understand the difference




if i want to know how to BE a really good basketball player, i ask gary payton. if i want to understand what MAKES really good basketball, i ask some beatnik reporter or better yet a coach who probably wasn't that good even in his hayday

for the record, you can be smooth as fk cuz you grew up with the sport but at the same time know very little about it. cavs is the opposite where he picked it up late so he looks awkward as fk but would probably outplay 75% of the board here because he understands his role



edit: seems everything i just said was already said

[SugarHill]

I don't listen to people's films reviews either because they never made a film in their life.

[GimmeThat]

I'm not 'upset' when I give someone 50 bucks and all they do is return 20 when maybe the average is at 28 on their first try.

I do get upset when I give someone 50 bucks and they still give me that same 20 on my 3rd try.


if upset means having to sit down and talk to Dr. Phil


as for the regular managers out there, "hey Pal, I don't know what to tell ya, but something tells me you've lived with that 20 longer than others have"


but hey, you lived, right.



free lance work, what use is it to be an artist.

me, my opinion, and my shot gun kill list.

[SpanishACB]

there are some guys who like to compare eras or players. but they're so blind to the game that they can't even observe the speed difference of game play. they can't even break down the defensive differences. they don't even know if a basketball move is bad play or not. all they know is, if the ball goes in, it's good, if it doesn't, it's bad. they have very simpleton ways of looking at the game. and their whole analysis is based on only stats, but they are completely blind and have no eyes for what's going on. and that lack of knowledge has so much to do with being a weak ass clueless player in real life.

This.

They have forced their way into liking the game instead of liking it naturally by playing it at a young age. Stats are the worst drug for these kind of people.

[swagga]

KendrickPerkins bullying this thread tbh :applause:

and lol @ people saying "but but but he watch tape, he learning doe". Like dwight howard, watch hakeem all summer, learn jack shit, impregnate 16 yo to pass time. :lol

[SpanishACB]

its very apparent with cavsftw and lazarus, they rarely talk of teams but of players, many times it appears they completely ignore one of the simplest things of the sport, one thing that you learn very early if you compete, even at school level: it's a team game.

I jsut read the old man himself ask why didn't MJ win a ring in the 90s. As if a single man could, by ability and decision, win a basketball game.

severe lack of undertanding of the sport

[HylianNightmare]

Plenty of great coaches never playe a high level of ball so no

[rmt]

Why does anyone even come on a board like this if not to hear the opinions of others? Does anyone have to do something to know about it? Does one "do" centuries of scientific work in order to know about science - or do they read about it, listen to documentaries, observe?

I'm a Spur fan - I know of the players, their strengths, weaknesses, personalities, families, defensive schemes, offensive schemes, history, etc. I've been watching the NBA since 1977, but have I EVER played basketball in my life? NO. Does that make me less knowledgeable than my 13 year old son who plays basketball in my driveway everyday?

[HoopologyPhD]

NO! Just because Shaq and Barkley were all time greats doesn't negate the fact that they are barely literate, immature, loud mouthed idiots with stupid opinions most of the time.

Maybe they should start posting on ISH...