On record 'bout Wilt (it's the off season after all)

[AirFederer]

So every Wilt fan and stan, please comment on each and every point. Yes/no is a must.

So, going by the Wilt clan, he was the
1. strongest
2.longest/longer than Shaq
3.heaviest/Shaqs equal
4.longest wingspan and standing reach
5.fastest
6.best endurance
7.best hops
8.best powerdunker
9.best post moves
10.bank shot like TD
11.fadeaway like Dirk
12.best scorer, rebounder, shot blocker of all time
13.best assisting center
14.never outplayed
15.never chocked/never lost a series he should have won
16.winning mentality on par with MJ
17.the games (38 or so) Kareem outscored him doesn't count because Wilt had had a knee operation
18.slept with 20000 women
19.killed a mountain lion with bare hands
20.world class volleyballer, weight lifter and track athlete
21. Ran 40 yards at 4.6 weighing ~345 pounds wearing suit and tie, and barefoot

Did I forget anything?
Wasn't he also first man to walk on the Moon and he invented the wheel?

Calling out Cavsftv, lazeruss, la frescobaldi, julizaver etc. C'mon!!

:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

So every Wilt fan and stan, please comment on each and every point. Yes/no is a must.

So, going by the Wilt clan, he was the
1. strongest
2.longest/longer than Shaq
3.heaviest/Shaqs equal
4.longest wingspan and standing reach
5.fastest
6.best endurance
7.best hops
8.best powerdunker
9.best post moves
10.bank shot like TD
11.fadeaway like Dirk
12.best scorer, rebounder, shot blocker of all time
13.best assisting center
14.never outplayed
15.never chocked/never lost a series he should have won
16.winning mentality on par with MJ
17.the games (38 or so) Kareem outscored him doesn't count because Wilt had had a knee operation
18.slept with 20000 women
19.killed a mountain lion with bare hands
20.world class volleyballer, weight lifter and track athlete
21. Ran 40 yards at 4.6 weighing ~345 pounds wearing suit and tie, and barefoot

Did I forget anything?
Wasn't he also first man to walk on the Moon and he invented the wheel?

Calling out Cavsftv, lazeruss, la frescobaldi, julizaver etc. C'mon!!

:cheers:

Bolded is correct.

Easily the strongest.

By far the best endurance.

Best hops for a big man. A 40-42" vertical.

He had an exceptional bank shot and fadaway.

The record book validates the best scorer and rebounder, and in the documented research we have, he was easily the game's best shot-blocker.

By far the best passing (assisting) center, and that includes outlet passing as well.

World-class volleyball player? He did dominate at least some. This is well documented. World class weight-lifter? Well Arnold would tell you he was. Even if he wasn't he was easily the strongest basketball player of all-time. World class track athlete? Let me put it to you this way...there were those that felt he would have been among the greatest, if not the greatest decathlete. And really, had Wilt concentrated on his track career, he likely would have been among the best in the world.

He did run a 4.6 40, and likely a 4.4.

The rest...he should have won in '69, and he did not play well, but his coach had more to do with it than he did. Outplayed? Statistically Kareem got the best of him in the '72 WCF's, but those that actually watched the series proclaimed that Wilt not only outplayed Kareem, there there were those that claimed that he decisively outplayed Kareem. And no, Willis Reed did not outplay Wilt in either '70 or '72...despite winning the FMVP's.

Hope that helps.

[Millslapped]

not to diminish guys like Russell and West, two great defenders...but defense back then was nowhere near as good as it is today.

[LAZERUSS]

not to diminish guys like Russell and West, two great defenders...but defense back then was nowhere near as good as it is today.

Oh really? How about you ask Kareem who gave him more trouble, Hakeem, or Thurmond. The stats CLEARLY give Nate a HUGE edge. And his second toughest defensive center he faced? An aging Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee. Again, Hakeem was nowhere near as effective. And keep in mind that Thurmond and Wilt faced a PEAK Kareem. Meanwhile a 38-40 year old Kareem just carpet-bombd a helpless 22-24 year old Hakeem (who would be All-Defense First Team at age 24.)

I could go on. The centers that gave Kareem the most trouble were those from the 60's and 70's, He slaughtered those from the 80's...two of whom were among the best centers of the 90's (Hakeem and Ewing.)

[superteamtheory]

1-11 is accurate.. 12 is debatable but he's in the convo for sure.. not sure about the rest.. the "outplayed" is less debateable because, as Russell (the guy who would have outplayed him in this argument) once put it, Wilt score 60 on me once... I didn't want him to score 60, he scored 60... against the greatest defensive player the league had seen or maybe ever has seen / will see ... So, outplayed? Russell might have overachieved at times (okay, most the time??) but I'm not sure it was physically possible to outplay Wilt unless you were one of the other 10 GOATS, like Kareem (able to put up better stats) for example..

[Millslapped]

Oh really? How about you ask Kareem who gave him more trouble, Hakeem, or Thurmond. The stats CLEARLY give Nate a HUGE edge. And his second toughest defensive center he faced? An aging Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee. Again, Hakeem was nowhere near as effective. And keep in mind that Thurmond and Wilt faced a PEAK Kareem. Meanwhile a 38-40 year old Kareem just carpet-bombd a helpless 22-24 year old Hakeem (who would be All-Defense First Team at age 24.)

I could go on. The centers that gave Kareem the most trouble were those from the 60's and 70's, He slaughtered those from the 80's...two of whom were among the best centers of the 90's (Hakeem and Ewing.)
I know that this is getting away from the original post some, but most people tend to diminish Wilt's accomplishments because he was so much bigger, taller, stronger, and more athletic than his opposing centers. And it is true, that when Wilt was scoring 50 ppg, it was Russell at 6-9 and Bellamy at 6-11, and the rest were pretty much 6-8 or 6-9 stiffs.

[Marchesk]

I know that this is getting away from the original post some, but most people tend to diminish Wilt's accomplishments because he was so much bigger, taller, stronger, and more athletic than his opposing centers.

Same could be said for Shaq much of the time. How many centers in the league could physically match up with O'Neal? How much of an advantage did Magic have being 6'9 as a PG?

[DonDadda59]

Same could be said for Shaq much of the time. How many centers in the league could physically match up with O'Neal?

FAR more than what Wilt faced earlier in his career. Even when the center position started to thin out during the Lakers' 3-peat, Shaq was still going up against the 7'4" Rik Smits and the 7'2" Dikemebe whereas Wilt was facing 6'8" 230 lbs centers on a nightly basis.



How much of an advantage did Magic have being 6'9 as a PG?

Depends on who was guarding him.

If it was Dennis Johnson or Isaiah Thomas, huge physical advantage. If it was Rodman or Pippen... not so much.

[LAZERUSS]

FAR more than what Wilt faced earlier in his career. Even when the center position started to thin out during the Lakers' 3-peat, Shaq was still going up against the 7'4" Rik Smits and the 7'2" Dikemebe whereas Wilt was facing 6'8" 230 lbs centers on a nightly basis.




Depends on who was guarding him.

If it was Dennis Johnson or Isaiah Thomas, huge physical advantage. If it was Rodman or Pippen... not so much.

Smits, who was never a defensive force, was in his last season in '00, and was just a shell. Mutombo was basically 35 in '01, and going downhill, despite his "DPOY." And McCullough? :roll: :roll: :roll: McCullough would not have been a starter in Wilt's era, and may not have even made a roster. Hell that goofball only played four miserable seasons in his NBA career.

As for the "6-8" centers Wilt faced? The average starting center in '62 was 6-10. By the end of the decade, it was 6-11. Just this past year, the average starting center was 6-11 (and even that is questionable, since most of them have been measured in shoes.) There were FAR more clowns playing center in the early 00's, than what Wilt was facing in the 60's and early 70's.

[Millslapped]

Smits, who was never a defensive force, was in his last season in '00, and was just a shell. Mutombo was basically 35 in '01, and going downhill, despite his "DPOY." And McCullough? :roll: :roll: :roll: McCullough would not have been a starter in Wilt's era, and may not have even made a roster. Hell that goofball only played four miserable seasons in his NBA career.

As for the "6-8" centers Wilt faced? The average starting center in '62 was 6-10. By the end of the decade, it was 6-11. Just this past year, the average starting center was 6-11 (and even that is questionable, since most of them have been measured in shoes.) There were FAR more clowns playing center in the early 00's, than what Wilt was facing in the 60's and early 70's.
Wilt's competition in that 61-62 season was not stellar. Basically only Russell and Bellamy were anywhere near his ability...and neither could approach him in terms of statistical domination.

[Marchesk]

Wilt's competition in that 61-62 season was not stellar. Basically only Russell and Bellamy were anywhere near his ability...and neither could approach him in terms of statistical domination.

Pettit averaged 31/18.7 a game that season. Yeah, he was a PF, but he was a big.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's competition in that 61-62 season was not stellar. Basically only Russell and Bellamy were anywhere near his ability...and neither could approach him in terms of statistical domination.

Lovellette is in the HOF, and put up a 21-9 season, albeit, it was in 40 games. Kerr put up a 16-15 season, and had multiple all-star appearances, and his back-up was the 7-3 Swede Halbrook. Embry was under-sized in terms of height, but he was a powerful man who put up a 19-13 season (BTW, he is in the HOF, and was an all-star in his career.) Dukes was a legit seven-footer, who put up a 9-10 season.

BUT, Chamberlain faced Russell and Bellamy 10 times each, as well as the other's. One-fourth of his games were against HOF centers, and both were at their peak.

And yes, Wilt slaughtered all of them.

[Millslapped]

Lovellette is in the HOF, and put up a 21-9 season, albeit, it was in 40 games. Kerr put up a 16-15 season, and had multiple all-star appearances, and his back-up was the 7-3 Swede Halbrook. Embry was under-sized in terms of height, but he was a powerful man who put up a 19-13 season (BTW, he is in the HOF, and was an all-star in his career.) Dukes was a legit seven-footer, who put up a 9-10 season.

BUT, Chamberlain faced Russell and Bellamy 10 times each, as well as the other's. One-fourth of his games were against HOF centers, and both were at their peak.

And yes, Wilt slaughtered all of them.
How many other basketball players could you say that about? Perhaps Russell would be another Ben Wallace, albeit a better passer...but that is not saying much. Sure, West, Robertson, and maybe a handful of others would be good players today, but all-stars? Nah.

[LAZERUSS]

How many other basketball players could you say that about? Perhaps Russell would be another Ben Wallace, albeit a better passer...but that is not saying much. Sure, West, Robertson, and maybe a handful of others would be good players today, but all-stars? Nah.

Russell was a 19-24-5 guy in that regular season, and a 22-26-5 guy in the post-season...including a 23-27-6 .543 Finals.

And Russell led his Celtics in scoring in the '66 Finals...with a 24-24-4 .538 series. And in his '65 Finals, he put up an 18-25-6 .702 Finals (yes...a .702 FG%.)

Incidently, Russell was as tall as Cousins, D Jordan, Drummond, and Howard.

[DonDadda59]

Smits, who was never a defensive force, was in his last season in '00 and was just a shell

But he was 7'4" and very skilled. Mid range game was on point.


Mutombo was basically 35 in '01, and going downhill, despite his "DPOY."

Why the quotation marks? DPOY = DPOY. A 7'2" 250 lbs one at that.

Wilt was getting thrashed regularly during his Lakers championship berth years by the 7'2" 230 lbs Kareem.


And McCullough? :roll: :roll: :roll: McCullough would not have been a starter in Wilt's era

Please don't make me post the stats and pictures of the starting centers during Wilt's era again.


As for the "6-8" centers Wilt faced? The average starting center in '62 was 6-10.

There were only 9 teams in the league. Take the 7'1" Wilt out, what's the average height of his competition then?

In '60 the average height was slightly over 6'8", weight 223 lbs. That was the size of the average center Wilt faced upon entering the NBA.



There were FAR more clowns playing center in the early 00's, than what Wilt was facing in the 60's and early 70's.

In the early 60s you had 6'8" 230 lbs guys who were only part time basketballs players who had day jobs starting as centers. Basketball was just a low paying hobby for them. Again, please don't make me post their stats and picks.

[Millslapped]

Russell was a 19-24-5 guy in that regular season, and a 22-26-5 guy in the post-season...including a 23-27-6 .543 Finals.

And Russell led his Celtics in scoring in the '66 Finals...with a 24-24-4 .538 series. And in his '65 Finals, he put up an 18-25-6 .702 Finals (yes...a .702 FG%.)

Incidently, Russell was as tall as Cousins, D Jordan, Drummond, and Howard.
The players of today are generally, and probably considerably, bigger, stronger, faster than previous eras (obviously the further back you go, the bigger the differences.

[Elosha]

You know, this is a bit of a troll post, but there is some actual food for thought in these criteria you've presented. So I'm going to try to present some thoughtful and hopefully unbiased comments to your queries in bold below.


So every Wilt fan and stan, please comment on each and every point. Yes/no is a must.

So, going by the Wilt clan, he was the
1. strongest He was certainly one of the absolute strongest players of all time, there can be no question of that. Since basketball doesn't award points for bench presses or squats, I'm more interested in seeing how a player applies "basketball strength." By all accounts, Wilt was an extremely powerful player who could move other players around quite easily to score/rebound/defend. However, based solely on the footage I've seen, I believe Shaq was a more physically dominant and explosive center, but not quite as skilled as Chamberlain in scoring moves, although Shaq was no slouch there.

2.longest/longer than Shaq It's fairly clear that Wilt was a bit taller and longer than Shaq. Shaq was probably a little over 7 foot in shoes and Wilt was about an inch taller, with a longer reach. Advantage Wilt.

3.heaviest/Shaqs equal No, it's pretty clear that throughout the phases of their careers, Shaq was the heavier and overall larger player. Advantage Shaq

4.longest wingspan and standing reach Obviously Yao, Eaton, Muresan, and Bol would beg to differ

5.fastest Wilt was extremely fast for a big man, but Wilt supporters do have to be careful here. When Wilt was younger and slimmer, he was no doubt significantly faster than when he was much heavier and older. We can't make the mistake of simultaneously crediting players like Shaq and Wilt, with both the absurd athleticism of their youth and the absolute brute strength of their primes and thereafter. I can show video of Shaq in his younger years with surprising amount of speed too, but I wouldn't argue that he was just as strong then as in his Lakers years

6.best endurance Any player that plays over 48 minutes/game over a whole year has to be considered with great endurance. Wilt's younger years of track training probably helped some, but he clearly had uncommon endurance. Best ever? Probably not, but clearly highly superior to the average center. The caveat here is that I don't personally see centers, particularly huge ones like Wilt, running nearly as hard or as much as guards or forwards. Watch footage of Wilt/Shaq or any other dominant big, and you'll notice that they are usually "chained" to the paint. That means that while the bump and push and jump for rebounds, they don't usually do nearly as much absolute movement as a perimeter player. Also, if you watch, they don't run nearly as fast usually down the floor, and once there they stay stationary in the post on offense. Now it's obviously incredibly physical down in the paint and requires great stamina, but in absolute terms, centers usually don't run as much or has hard as guards and many forwards.

7.best hops Along with Wilt's strength, this has to be one of the most contentious aspects for Wilt. On the one hand, we have many stories of his leaping prowess, which attests to a great athlete. On the other hand, when you look at his dunk footage and most of his block footage, his vertical seems somewhat underwhelming, at least by the vaunted standards to which Wilt and his supporters proclaim. Now some claim that Wilt just dunked without jumping as high as he could and saved his true vertical for blocked shots. However, in virtually every one of the blocks in which it is claimed that Wilt is jumping his highest, they are all taken from the other side of the court from above the basket. Undisputedly, those angles distort and exaggerate a player's vertical by 4 - 6 inches. The best and most clear Wilt blocks I've seen show his head about 3 inches below the rim, a jump of about 32 inches. I think it's possible that Wilt could have gotten rim level with about a 35 inch jump. But I'm going to take the significant footage we have for him over anecdotes that put him with much higher vertical leap. He is obviously one of the best jumping big men of all time, but without better evidence, I'm not going to put him over Garnett, Howard, Shaq, Robinson, DeAndre Jordan as a leaper. Doesn't mean he wasn't significantly better than all of them except Shaq.

8.best powerdunker Very powerful dunker but there are players who clearly dunked harder and more explosively, based on the footage

9.best post moves People can claim that Wilt looked awkward at times and didn't face as daunting of double teams. There may be some truth to that. But that doesn't undermine the clear amount of moves and sophistication of his offensive game. The man was a supreme scorer. There may have been a few big men and other post up players who could rival his scoring skill in terms of the number and effectiveness of their moves/countermoves, but he's clearly among the very best

10.bank shot like TD - Not really enough footage to know, nor do we really know just how efficient Wilt was in making such shots. But it clealry was an important weapon for him and one that he had a lot of confidence in.

11.fadeaway like Dirk Same as above

12.best scorer, rebounder, shot blocker of all time - All of this is relative, based on era, pace, and the caliber/size/and athleticism of the competition. But in general terms, he was very dominant in all three areas

13.best assisting center He certainly has some impressive passes in the limited footage that we have, and of course averaged over 8 in one season. He's got to be ranked up there with Walton, Divac, etc. as one of the best.

14.never outplayed Every player in history has been outplayed at one time or another

15.never chocked/never lost a series he should have wonWilt played well in many series/aspects and not so well in others. I don't believe he was a choker or a loser, but I don't think he was as competitive or lifted his game as much as some other all time greats. But he's not alone in that regard. Shaq for instance, got swept many times in his career and had multiple times in which he came up small in big moments. People forget that with all of the "MDE" worship.

16.winning mentality on par with MJ No but why would anyone hold that against him?

17.the games (38 or so) Kareem outscored him doesn't count because Wilt had had a knee operation There's a case to be made that KAJ outplayed Wilt head to head and an opposite position that Wilt outplayed KAJ when it counted. Each argument is respectable.

18.slept with 20000 women Nothing to do with basketball

19.killed a mountain lion with bare hands Same.

20.world class volleyballer, weight lifter and track athlete Already addressed sufficiently above

21. Ran 40 yards at 4.6 weighing ~345 pounds wearing suit and tie, and barefoot Wilt was very fast. Whether this particular story is accurate is unknowable.

Did I forget anything?
Wasn't he also first man to walk on the Moon and he invented the wheel?

Calling out Cavsftv, lazeruss, la frescobaldi, julizaver etc. C'mon!!

:cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

But he was 7'4" and very skilled. Mid range game was on point.



Why the quotation marks? DPOY = DPOY. A 7'2" 250 lbs one at that.

Wilt was getting thrashed regularly during his Lakers championship berth years by the 7'2" 230 lbs Kareem.



Please don't make me post the stats and pictures of the starting centers during Wilt's era again.



There were only 9 teams in the league. Take the 7'1" Wilt out, what's the average height of his competition then?

In '60 the average height was slightly over 6'8" 223 lbs. That was the size of the average center Wilt faced upon entering the NBA.




In the early 60s you had 6'8" 230 lbs guys who were only part time basketballs players who had day jobs starting as centers. Basketball was just a low paying hobby for them. Again, please don't make me post their stats and picks.

First of all, Smits was punching bag in '00. A complete waste defensively. A prime Chamberlain, would have demolished him and Davis as badly as Shaq did. Mutombo was not on Russell's level defensively, especially at age 35, and a prime Wilt was hanging 30-31 .555 FG% series on him.

And you're 6-8 center in '60? Who cares? By '62 there were 7-0+ centers in the league, as well as 6-11 centers who would measure at 7-0+ today...and Chamberlain destroyed them all...including HOFers Russell and Bellamy.

By the mid-60's, and in 9-10 team leagues, the starting centers were HOFers Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond (BTW, we KNOW that Nate ROUTINELY shut down a PEAK Kareem, and in fact, outscored and outshot him in their '72 playoff series H2H), Russell, and Wilt...along with an exceptional center in Zelmo Beaty, and Embry. And guys like Dierking and Imhoff were as good as the average centers of today (hell, there was a game in which Dierking outscored Kareem.) And there were other seven-footers in the league as well. And keep in mind that you could add an inch to nearly every player who played back then, had they been measured in today's NBA.

But, again...in a 9-10 league...Chamberlain was facing a HOF center in 40-50+% of his games, and good centers in another 10-20%. And...he CRUSHED them all.

As for Kareem...most everyone that watched both the '71 and '72 WCF's would tell you that a 34-35 year old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee...OUTPLAYED a PEAK Kareem. And, of course, a pre-injury Wilt just hammered him in every facet of the game.

[superteamtheory]

The players of today are generally, and probably considerably, bigger, stronger, faster than previous eras (obviously the further back you go, the bigger the differences.

I used to believe this too man when I was growing up... it's okay man, I know how mystifying this is at first... but... Russell and Wilt were legendary beasts... I mean the more correct comparison might be between them and a T-Rex or something vs. today's NBA players...

Russell would be a far superior version of DeAndre Jordan today and look at all the headaches this summer over DeAndre even..

Today's players are *a little smoother* than the raw originals and they are accustomed to the complex defensive schemes and resulting offences and a kick out to 3 game... I'm pretty sure all that could have gotten ironed out over a couple seasons for Russell and Wilt if they were to time travel to today's league (and Oscar Robertson absolutely could have expanded his dribbling game, etc.)... Also, when games break down, as they often do, smoothness goes out the window and raw talent becomes important again, as does intensity/drive and Russell had that, Wilt could summon it up when he wanted to... Russell said once: "Wilt didn't realize stars were going to be such a big thing [talked about forever in the future], if he did he would have tried harder." ... A guy who could put up 60 on any given night, wasn't even trying a lot of the time because he figured everybody would forget whatever happened that night by tomorrow, because those were the times, they were decades away from internet, nobody could have imagined the obsessiveness of today's fans, so Wilt was just punching the clock during the regular season and during playoffs playing purely for his team / Philly, San Fran or L.A....

But I *do* think the average talent level of the league's talent pool has risen considerably from the 60's & 70's, so there is that, that's what would bring Russell and Wilt's stats down IMO. Oscar Robertson's too. But then it would also depend what era they're in... I'm not sure their stats would drop as severely in the modern era...

[DonDadda59]

First of all, Smits was punching bag in '00. A complete waste defensively. A prime Chamberlain, would have demolished him and Davis as badly as Shaq did. Mutombo was not on Russell's level defensively, especially at age 35, and a prime Wilt was hanging 30-31 .555 FG% series on him.

Russell 6'10" 215 lbs
Dikembe 7'2" 250 lbs

And the much smaller Russell at 34 led his team to the championship against Wilt (who only averaged 12 PPG in the finals mind you)... as always.


And you're 6-8 center in '60? Who cares? By '62 there were 7-0+ centers in the league, as well as 6-11 centers who would measure at 7-0+ today...and Chamberlain destroyed them all...including HOFers Russell and Bellamy.

Anyone who studies basketball History :confusedshrug:

6'8" 223 lbs was the average size of starting centers when Wilt entered the NBA.

As more legitimate centers starting trickling into the league and they started getting bigger and more skilled, Wilt's scoring production was sheared in half from age 25-30. By the time the 70s rolled around and Kareem was in the league, Chamberlain was a poor man's Bill Russell with far less results in the ring department.

[LAZERUSS]

The players of today are generally, and probably considerably, bigger, stronger, faster than previous eras (obviously the further back you go, the bigger the differences.

I would tell you that the centers of the early 70's, including the 7-2 Gilmore from the ABA...would just MOP the floor with the best centers of this era. Not even close. Centers such as Reed, Bellamy, Unseld, Hayes, Lanier, Cowens, Thurmond, Gilmore, Kareem, and Wilt...FAR better than what we have today. Hell, the "average" centers were Neal Walk (a 20-12 guy at his peak), and Tom Boerwinkle who was Noah-type passer, scorer, and a better rebounder. And I would argue that a college Walton, and teammate Swen Nater, were better than the majority of today's centers, as well.

Keep in mind, too, that you can't go what a player's LISTED height is today. For example...Cousins, Drummond, D Jordan, and Howard...all 6-9 3/4. Geez, the "7-1" Spencer Hawes is actually 6-10 1/2. Tim Duncan may not even be a full 6-11, and he generally towers over most of his peers.

[Marchesk]

The players of today are generally, and probably considerably, bigger, stronger, faster than previous eras (obviously the further back you go, the bigger the differences.

Name the bigs today who are bigger, stronger, faster. Where are the Shaqs, David Robinsons and Hakeems (even though he wasn't a 7 footer)?

Demarcus Cousins is one of the best bigs in the league, and he has a 27 inch vertical. Howard was very athletic, but he is only Russell's height.

With all the talk about the evolution of players, you'd think that Shaq and D. Robinson would be the norm, but they're the once in a generation type players.

[Millslapped]

Name the bigs today who are bigger, stronger, faster. Where are the Shaqs, David Robinsons and Hakeems (even though he wasn't a 7 footer)?

Demarcus Cousins is one of the best bigs in the league, and he has a 27 inch vertical. Howard was very athletic, but he is only Russell's height.

With all the talk about the evolution of players, you'd think that Shaq and D. Robinson would be the norm, but they're the once in a generation type players.
The arguement that today's players and athletes are bigger, stronger, faster, better trained, better fed, have better equipment, better medical care, and yes, even better illegal performance enhancers, is indisputeable

[DonDadda59]

Name the bigs today who are bigger, stronger, faster. Where are the Shaqs, David Robinsons and Hakeems (even though he wasn't a 7 footer)?

Demarcus Cousins is one of the best bigs in the league, and he has a 27 inch vertical. Howard was very athletic, but he is only Russell's height.

With all the talk about the evolution of players, you'd think that Shaq and D. Robinson would be the norm, but they're the once in a generation type players.

This is easily the worst era for Cs since the early-mid 60s, no one is denying that. But it is considerably better, deeper, more athletic, more skilled than it was when Wilt first entered the league.

70s and 90s were golden eras for centers. All the guys who were going to be potentially great now all went down with catastrophic injuries.

[LAZERUSS]

Russell 6'10" 215 lbs
Dikembe 7'2" 250 lbs

And the much smaller Russell at 34 led his team to the championship against Wilt (who only averaged 12 PPG in the finals mind you)... as always.



Anyone who studies basketball History :confusedshrug:

6'8" 223 lbs was the average size of starting centers when Wilt entered the NBA.

As more legitimate centers starting trickling into the league and they started getting bigger and more skilled, Wilt's scoring production was sheared in half from age 25-30. By the time the 70s rolled around and Kareem was in the league, Chamberlain was a poor man's Bill Russell with far less results in the ring department.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Wilt averaged 50 ppg, 45 ppg, 37 ppg, 35 ppg (and was at 40 ppg at mid-season), 34 ppg, and 24 ppg. BUT, as I ripped your ass on this several times now...he was hanging games of 52, 53, 53, 58, 60, 66, and 68...from '67 thru '69. And when SI ran an article in '69 claiming that he could no longer score...he hung a 60 point game, and followed it up with a 66 point game. Th fact was, he could have scored FAR more in his career...as evidenced by his 32.2 ppg average in his '69-70 season (on a .579 FG%.)

And a "poor man's" Russell was a better rebounder (Wilt was leading the league in every season in the 70's...unlike Russell who was getting crushed by Wilt in the 60's), and Wilt was a FAR more efficient shooter, and in fact, set the all-time record in a league with Thurmond, Cowens, Lanier, Unseld, Hayes, Bellamy, Reed, and Kareem. Oh, and he had more "winning" success in his four seasons in the league with Kareem (actually a 3-1 Finals edge.)

[LAZERUSS]

You know, this is a bit of a troll post, but there is some actual food for thought in these criteria you've presented. So I'm going to try to present some thoughtful and hopefully unbiased comments to your queries in bold below.

I don't agree with some of this...particularly his leaping ability...even in the footage he is near the top of the backboard...and there were just too many credible witnesses watching him dunking on 12 ft rims, dunking his FTs, and touching the top of the backboard. Furthermore, there is footage in the '71 playoffs, when a 34 year old Wilt, at over 300 lbs, on a surgically repaired knee, and going straight up...without benefit of a running start, and blocking a shot in which his fingertips were above the square. Also, a 33-36 Wilt routinely blocked the "unblockable" skyhook, and we even have video footage with TWO blocks in a span of a few seconds.

But the rest is very well critiqued.

:cheers:

[RightTwoCensor]

Bill Russell would not be better than DeAndre Jordan in this era.

We're assuming Russell was this Ben Wallace type defender but the fact of the matter is he played against inferior competition during his era. Even though DeAndre isn't an elite man or help defender he still possess more physical and athletic qualities that would allow him to dominate the game in the paint.

[DonDadda59]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Wilt averaged 50 ppg, 45 ppg, 37 ppg, 35 ppg (and was at 40 ppg at mid-season), 34 ppg, and 24 ppg. BUT, as I ripped your ass on this several times now...he was hanging games of 52, 53, 53, 58, 60, 66, and 68...from '67 thru '69. And when SI ran an article in '69 claiming that he could no longer score...he hung a 60 point game, and followed it up with a 66 point game. Th fact was, he could have scored FAR more in his career...as evidenced by his 32.2 ppg average in his '69-70 season (on a .579 FG%.)

So basically after Wilt's scoring in his prime, from ages 25-30, dropped by more than half... he had the odd game here and there were he put up points.

A 39-40 year old Jordan did something similar.

Most impressive. :applause:


And a "poor man's" Russell was a better rebounder (Wilt was leading the league in every season in the 70's...unlike Russell who was getting crushed by Wilt in the 60's), and Wilt was a FAR more efficient shooter, and in fact, set the all-time record in a league with Thurmond, Cowens, Lanier, Unseld, Hayes, Bellamy, Reed, and Kareem. Oh, and he had more "winning" success in his four seasons in the league with Kareem (actually a 3-1 Finals edge.)

Wilt was 1-4 in the finals as a Laker, in the Russell role (including losing to Russell in 7, in Bill's last series... scoring only 12 PPG). Kareem also won 1 title during that span with considerably less ATGs on his squad.

How many game 7s did this guy lose in the finals? To call him a poor man's Bill Russell would be an insult to the greatest winner in NBA History. Let's call him a upper middle class man's DeAndre Jordan. :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Bill Russell would not be better than DeAndre Jordan in this era.

We're assuming Russell was this Ben Wallace type defender but the fact of the matter is he played against inferior competition during his era. Even though DeAndre isn't an elite man or help defender he still possess more physical and athletic qualities that would allow him to dominate the game in the paint.

You're entitled to your opinion, but there is footage of a prime Russell out there, and he was a considerably better offensive player...especially if you include his passing. I also believe he was a better individual and team defender, and a better rim-protector. As for rebounding...very close...albeit, I would like to Jordan's numbers playing 44-45 mpg.

[LAZERUSS]

So basically after Wilt's scoring in his prime, from ages 25-30, dropped by more than half... he had the odd game here and there were he put up points.

A 39-40 year old Jordan did something similar.

Most impressive. :applause:



Wilt was 1-4 in the finals as a Laker, in the Russell role (including losing to Russell in 7, in Bill's last series... scoring only 12 PPG). Kareem also won 1 title during that span with considerably less ATGs on his squad.

How many game 7s did this guy lose in the finals? To call him a poor man's Bill Russell would be an insult to the greatest winner in NBA History. Let's call him a upper middle class man's DeAndre Jordan. :applause:

Then you obviously don't think much of Kareem, who had far more stacked rosters in '72, '73, '74, '78, and '79, than Wilt did from '60 thru '65, and yet Wilt was carrying those rosters to game seven defeats to the greatest dynasty in NBA history, on two occasions, and then in '67, with an equal supporting cast, just obliterated Russell and his eight-time defending champs.

A prime Kareem, in his ten seasons in the league...ONE ring (and arguably the easiest run to a title in NBA history...and also outplayed by Wilt in the WCF's); TWO Finals, losing the second Finals in a blowout loss on his home floor, and in a game in which he was outplayed by Cowens; two WCF's, getting beaten in six games by Wilt and his Lakers in one of them (and puking all over the floor in the 4th quarter in the clinching loss), and swept by a 49-33 team despite HCA; a second round blowout loss against a team with far less talent; a first round loss against that same team; a first round loss in which he took his 60-22 team down the toilet against a 47-35 team (and the same team that Wilt would slaughter in the very next round); and two seasons in which he couldn't take his teams to the playoffs.

[Marchesk]

Bill Russell would not be better than DeAndre Jordan in this era.

When Deandre Jordan starts leading the Clippers to multiple titles and winning MVPs, we can discuss him in the same sentence as Bill Russell.

[RightTwoCensor]

When Deandre Jordan starts leading the Clippers to multiple titles and winning MVPs, we can discuss him in the same sentence as Bill Russell.
Different Eras.

I'm talking about skill-wise, I could name up to 20 centers dating back to the 1980s who are more skilled than Russell.

[Marchesk]

Different Eras.

I'm talking about skill-wise, I could name up to 20 centers dating back to the 1980s who are more skilled than Russell.

So you think you could time travel Jordan to the 57, and the Celtics would basically win 11 of 13 titles, with Jordan being awarded 5 MVPs over the likes of Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit.

[LAZERUSS]

Different Eras.

I'm talking about skill-wise, I could name up to 20 centers dating back to the 1980s who are more skilled than Russell.

How "skilled" was Shaq?

[DonDadda59]

Then you obviously don't think much of Kareem, who had far more stacked rosters in '72, '73, '74, '78, and '79, than Wilt did from '60 thru '65, and yet Wilt was carrying those rosters to game seven defeats to the greatest dynasty in NBA history, on two occasions, and then in '67, with an equal supporting cast, just obliterated Russell and his eight-time defending champs.

A prime Kareem, in his ten seasons in the league...ONE ring (and arguably the easiest run to a title in NBA history...and also outplayed by Wilt in the WCF's); TWO Finals, losing the second Finals in a blowout loss on his home floor, and in a game in which he was outplayed by Cowens; two WCF's, getting beaten in six games by Wilt and his Lakers in one of them (and puking all over the floor in the 4th quarter in the clinching loss), and swept by a 49-33 team despite HCA; a second round blowout loss against a team with far less talent; a first round loss against that same team; a first round loss in which he took his 60-22 team down the toilet against a 47-35 team (and the same team that Wilt would slaughter in the very next round); and two seasons in which he couldn't take his teams to the playoffs.

And yet Kareem has 6 rings on his fingers today. :confusedshrug:

Wilt was tortured by the Celtics for a whole decade and always had the teammates excuse to fall back on until '69 when he had Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (both HOFers/ATGs) vs Russell on his literal last legs.

Wilt proceeded to average only 12 PPG and his teammate West won FMVP in a losing effort (only time in History that happened) averaging 40/5/7. It wasn't Dippy's teammates that caused him to lose yet another game 7 in the finals vs Russell and the Celtics.

Meanwhile, Kareem won 5 rings in the 80s, lifting 2 off the Celtics.

Kareem>>>>Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

And yet Kareem has 6 rings on his finger today. :confusedshrug:

Wilt was tortured by the Celtics for a whole decade and always had the teammates excuse to fall back on until '69 when he had Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (both HOFers/ATGs) vs Russell on his literal last legs.

Wilt proceeded to average only 12 PPG and his teammate West won FMVP in a losing effort (only time in History that happened) averaging 40/5/7. Clearly it was Wilt's teammates that caused him to lose yet another game 7 in the finals vs Russell and the Celtics. In the game seven loss...Chamberlain shot .875 from the field, Russell shot .286. Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's by a .477 to .360 margin...in a two point win.

Meanwhile, Magic won 5 rings in the 80s, with side-kick Kareem contributing significantly in three of them, and even at his best...it was Magic who carried that team to a title with a clinching game six performance of 42-15-7...all while Kareem watched from his couch. Magic lifted 2 off the Celtics, and it should have been three.

Magic >>> Kareem.

Fixed...

BTW, please provide us all here Baylor's numbers in LA's four losses in the '69 Finals...as well as Wilt's and Russell's in that game seven.

[RightTwoCensor]

So you think you could time travel Jordan to the 57, and the Celtics would basically win 11 of 13 titles, with Jordan being awarded 5 MVPs over the likes of Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor, Pettit.
I'm sorry but who's locking down Jordan?

What team in that generation is giving him a bigger challenge than what he faced in the late 80s and 90s against the Pistons, Knicks, and Jazz?

Jordan was always the Most Dominant Player in the league in the 1990s even though he didn't win the MVP every year. To think that the most skilled player in our game's history couldn't dominate the laughable perimeter defenders of Wilt and Russell's era is blasphemous.

No team in that era is beating a Michael Jordan led squad. He's arguable the greatest mid ranged player in our game's history and arguable the greatest non-Big Man post player in history. I don't see what's stopping Jordan from averaging 50 or 60 PPG (and I didn't even touch on his strength and athleticism which allowed him to finish over the greatest of rim protectors of the 1990s).

Just wanted to post that, don't expect a response.

[DonDadda59]

Fixed...

If you give Magic all the credit... gotta take away all of Wilt's accomplishments post '68. :confusedshrug:

Jerry West>>>>Wilt.

[RightTwoCensor]

How "skilled" was Shaq?
Footwork and Touch, nothing special. Russell didn't have either to the point where he could average 20 PPG.

[LAZERUSS]

If you give Magic all the credit... gotta take away all of Wilt's accomplishments post '68. :confusedshrug:

Jerry West>>>>Wilt.

Did Kareem win a ring in a post-season in which Magic shot .376 from the field, and then an even worse .325 in the Finals?

I can find a Finals in which Magic won a ring and in which Kareem put up a 13-4 .414 statline, with a game seven of 4 pts, on 2-7 shooting, with 3 rbs, 3 TOs, and 5 PFs in his 29 minutes, and getting destroyed by Laimbeer and Salley.

Furthermore, please provide us all here West's playoff numbers in the '71 post-season. And then West's numbers in the '73 Finals. Hell, how about BOTH Wilt's and West's numbers (as well as Reed's and Frazier's) in game seven of the '70 Finals.

[DonDadda59]

Did Kareem win a ring in a post-season in which Magic shot .376 from the field, and then an even worse .325 in the Finals?

The skill level in the league had grown exponentially by the 80s in the post merger, post racial quota era. Guys could do things like dribble with their off hand and could actually shoot.


I can find a Finals in which Magic won a ring and in which Kareem put up a 13-4 .414 statline, with a game seven of 4 pts, on 2-7 shooting, with 3 rbs, 3 TOs, and 5 PFs in his 29 minutes, and getting destroyed by Laimbeer and Salley.

You mean when Kareem was 40? What about when Wilt averaged 11.7 PPG in the finals at 32 years old in yet another game 7 loss in the finals to Bill Russell and the Celtics :yaohappy:

[Marchesk]

I'm sorry but who's locking down Jordan?

You mean Deandre Jordan? :coleman:


No team in that era is beating a Michael Jordan led squad. He's arguable the greatest mid ranged player in our game's history and arguable the greatest non-Big Man post player in history.

So you want to talk MJ instead. Okay. The Celtics had a HOF SG in Sam Jones. He wasn't MJ, but he was good. What made the Celtics all-time winners was Russell. Replace Russell with Jordan and who do the Celtics have inside to go against Wilt and the other HOF centers back then? Jordan/Sam Jones combo (if a bit redundant) would be ridiculous, but how many titles were the Lakers winning with West/Baylor on the perimeter tearing up the league? Those two averaged a combined 72 points in one finals and the Lakers still lost.


don't see what's stopping Jordan from averaging 50 or 60 PPG (and I didn't even touch on his strength and athleticism which allowed him to finish over the greatest of rim protectors of the 1990s).

Well Wilt averaged 50/25 and it wasn't enough. Oscar averaged a 30 point triple double, won an MVP over Wilt & Russell, and he never made it to the finals until he was on Kareem's team.

What do you suppose Wilt have done to the Celtics minus Bill Russell? What, is (Michael) Jordan going to guard him? He destroyed the Lakers because they had no one to hold him in check, unfortunately, Wilt never got to play the Lakers in the finals.

I'm not saying that Wilt is better than MJ, rather I'm saying that Russell was the perfect fit for the Celtics back then, and you needed a great big to win titles. The league has changed since then, obviously. But it took until the MJ and the Bulls to recognize that you didn't need a great center, although I don't think they're winning without Grant and Rodman (indispensable defense and rebounding inside otherwise Shaq and Ewing would have owned them down there).

[Dr.J4ever]

And yet Kareem has 6 rings on his fingers today. :confusedshrug:

Wilt was tortured by the Celtics for a whole decade and always had the teammates excuse to fall back on until '69 when he had Elgin Baylor and Jerry West (both HOFers/ATGs) vs Russell on his literal last legs.

Wilt proceeded to average only 12 PPG and his teammate West won FMVP in a losing effort (only time in History that happened) averaging 40/5/7. It wasn't Dippy's teammates that caused him to lose yet another game 7 in the finals vs Russell and the Celtics.

Meanwhile, Kareem won 5 rings in the 80s, lifting 2 off the Celtics.

Kareem>>>>Wilt.

Good debate. Ultimately unresolvable, but entertaining:cheers:

I am on the side of Kareem>Wilt maybe because I saw Kaj slaughter 76er centers during the early 80s, and Doc couldn't get his NBA title until we had Moses. Let's not forget though that Wilt won a title vs. the Celtic dynasty, no less, in 1967, in what was billed for many years after that as the greatest team ever with the 76ers.

Another point, and this is more for the other thread when Laz was talking about Kaj's peak in the early 70s. Yes, Kaj's peak ATHLETICALLY was probably during the early 70s when he was a very young player, but his below 50% FG shows me what I have been saying here for a long time, Kaj's skyhook accuracy was better during the 80s.

I simply can't imagine a Kaj shooting below 50% in any era against any center. Yes, he was more mobile and a better rebounder during the early 70s, but his skyhook became more accurate and he relied on it more during the 80s than during the 70s. Don't have the stats with me, but I'm pretty sure Kaj had very high 50% plus FG during his best years in the 80s in both the RS and playoffs. This has to be factored in when discussing his duels with Wilt when Kaj was a very young player.

BTW, nice debate and both sides have presented compelling cases. Carry on :cheers:

[AirFederer]

Why Wilt didn't win more? Why Russel won while Wilt set individual records?

Look no further

[QUOTE]

[scandisk_]

1. strongest - top 10
2.longest/longer than Shaq - yep
3.heaviest/Shaqs equal
4.longest wingspan and standing reach
5.fastest - top 10 for a bigman
6.best endurance - top 10 ever
7.best hops - top 10 for a bigman
8.best powerdunker
9.best post moves
10.bank shot like TD
11.fadeaway like Dirk
12.best scorer, rebounder, shot blocker of all time - top 3 in every category
13.best assisting center - nah
14.never outplayed - check KAJ
15.never chocked/never lost a series he should have won
16.winning mentality on par with MJ - not even close
17.the games (38 or so) Kareem outscored him doesn't count because Wilt had had a knee operation
18.slept with 20000 women -
19.killed a mountain lion with bare hands
20.world class volleyballer, weight lifter and track athlete
21. Ran 40 yards at 4.6 weighing ~345 pounds wearing suit and tie, and barefoot



there you go

[LoneyROY7]

So, I just watched this clip of the 1967 playoffs (Boston v. Philly): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDK5VDdX-yo, and...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

The level of basketball back then wasn't even close to what it is today. These dudes were out there dribbling with only one hand and throwing up awful looking shots. :oldlol:

Y'all old heads need to wake up and smell the f*cking roses. Basketball today is on a completely different level than it was 45-50 years ago. FACT. Period. Move the f*ck on.

[Asukal]

not to diminish guys like Russell and West, two great defenders...but defense back then was nowhere near as good as it is today.

I know that this is getting away from the original post some, but most people tend to diminish Wilt's accomplishments because he was so much bigger, taller, stronger, and more athletic than his opposing centers. And it is true, that when Wilt was scoring 50 ppg, it was Russell at 6-9 and Bellamy at 6-11, and the rest were pretty much 6-8 or 6-9 stiffs.

Wilt's competition in that 61-62 season was not stellar. Basically only Russell and Bellamy were anywhere near his ability...and neither could approach him in terms of statistical domination.

LOLOLOLOLOL! Loseruss getting trolled by his own words.... :oldlol: :lol :roll:

[Psileas]

Poor haters. Every time they put the mental force to structure a post more than a couple of lines long, they think they made a thread-worthy post and therefore post their shit again as separate threads. :lol If only Laz had cared to operate the same way (create a thread for every long message he posts), he would have led you to depression. :oldlol:
Why care about the OP? Take any center in history and start answering the same questions, then compare these answers to the case for Wilt, Wilt is going to have more boxes checked.