Were all of the all-time greats bashed and disrespected? Will future ones be?

[Westbrook0]

This is a multi-part question.

The amount of hate that a guy like LeBron gets on here is surreal. 4 MVPs, 2 rings, one of the top 4-5 all-time peaks, talent-wise.

Is it just LeBron that gets this type of hate, or has it always been this way? Duncan and Shaq don't get that type of hate. Why is that?

Have past Top 10 players received the type of hatred that LBJ does? Were people always bashing on Larry Bird or Magic Johnson back in the day, saying how much they sucked and how pathetic they were?

If not, why is it such a modern thing to hate on a Top 10 player? Does it have something to do with the prevalence of the internet and a mob mentality?

Part two: Will this type of attitude simply get worse and worse toward all-time greats in the future?

If someone in 15 years wins 4 MVPs and 2 rings, are people going to crucify him and hate on him even more than they do LeBron now, just because that's where the future of NBA fandom is going?

Or is it a hatred of an all-time great while he is still playing, that eventually turns into a recognition of greatness once you look back at it nostalgically?

[Akrazotile]

A lot of it has to do with the size of the Laker fan base. Bron is a clear threat to Kobe's legacy and all time rank, so kobe stans swarm like ants or locust etc to attack and put down Bron.

Then you have the fact that Lebron teased and spurned the Knicks during his first free agency keruffle, and they have a huge fanbase as well who are now salty af about the dude.

A lot of Bulls fans resent him for single handedly castrating their star player and entire team over a period of 3-4 years. And also as a protection mechanism to make sure he doesnt get too close to MJ's legacy to threaten it in any way.


Basically hes public enemy number 1 for a lot of the major fan bases in the league currently. If Kobe played for the Bucks and Bran had never faced the Bulls in the playoffs etc thered prob be less hate. Just kind of a confluence of circumstances.

[ISHGoat]

A lot of it has to do with the size of the Laker fan base. Bron is a clear threat to Kobe's legacy and all time rank, so kobe stans swarm like ants or locust etc to attack and put down Bron.

Then you have the fact that Lebron teased and spurned the Knicks during his first free agency keruffle, and they have a huge fanbase as well who are now salty af about the dude.

A lot of Bulls fans resent him for single handedly castrating their star player and entire team over a period of 3-4 years. And also as a protection mechanism to make sure he doesnt get too close to MJ's legacy to threaten it in any way.


Basically hes public enemy number 1 for a lot of the major fan bases in the league currently. If Kobe played for the Bucks and Bran had never faced the Bulls in the playoffs etc thered prob be less hate. Just kind of a confluence of circumstances.

good post

[Rocketswin2013]

A lot of it has to do with the size of the Laker fan base. Bron is a clear threat to Kobe's legacy and all time rank, so kobe stans swarm like ants or locust etc to attack and put down Bron.

Then you have the fact that Lebron teased and spurned the Knicks during his first free agency keruffle, and they have a huge fanbase as well who are now salty af about the dude.

A lot of Bulls fans resent him for single handedly castrating their star player and entire team over a period of 3-4 years. And also as a protection mechanism to make sure he doesnt get too close to MJ's legacy to threaten it in any way.


Basically hes public enemy number 1 for a lot of the major fan bases in the league currently. If Kobe played for the Bucks and Bran had never faced the Bulls in the playoffs etc thered prob be less hate. Just kind of a confluence of circumstances.
This. Good question and good response.

[Rocketswin2013]

I also think this era makes it easier to see flaws in these players personally and on the court.


People are also just immune to/used to how great LeBron is at this point. He made an astronomical level of play his own standard, and people struggle to actually objectively look at how ridiculous he is. Sometimes it even happens to myself.

[Lebron23]

I don't thing Lebron is hated outside this forum. Just a bunch of immature Jackoffbe fans. Some guys have plenty of account in this forum.

KObe is also hated in this forum until now.

[FreezingTsmoove]

How many damn weak crackpot finals are we going to have to witness cause of this douchebag?

[MP.Trey]

I think the fact that he was so hyped since he was like 16 and he actually lived up to it eats some people alive for some reason. People always root for the underdog.

[sdot_thadon]

Actually Kobe was the 1st I experienced get hated really hard, his was due to many factors but I think the main deal was the rise of the Internet and message boards such as these.

Lebron is the 1st social media era goat candidate. It's natural everything gets hated on nowadays, guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird, etc benefited from a far more friendly media limited era. We only had local papers and magazines along with the occasional scripted fluff interviews on tv back then. The only way to be hated back then was to be a truly bad guy. Times have most definitely changed.

Edit edit edit:
Most importantly than all else. We have access to pretty much every second of a player's career in this era. In previous eras reputations were built on limited national tv exposure and home markets only. The flaws are far more evident when you have the entire picture in front of you instead of just highlights.

[nba_55]

A lot of it has to do with the size of the Laker fan base. Bron is a clear threat to Kobe's legacy and all time rank, so kobe stans swarm like ants or locust etc to attack and put down Bron.

Then you have the fact that Lebron teased and spurned the Knicks during his first free agency keruffle, and they have a huge fanbase as well who are now salty af about the dude.

A lot of Bulls fans resent him for single handedly castrating their star player and entire team over a period of 3-4 years. And also as a protection mechanism to make sure he doesnt get too close to MJ's legacy to threaten it in any way.


Basically hes public enemy number 1 for a lot of the major fan bases in the league currently. If Kobe played for the Bucks and Bran had never faced the Bulls in the playoffs etc thered prob be less hate. Just kind of a confluence of circumstances.
:applause:

[Westbrook0]

A lot of it has to do with the size of the Laker fan base. Bron is a clear threat to Kobe's legacy and all time rank, so kobe stans swarm like ants or locust etc to attack and put down Bron.

Then you have the fact that Lebron teased and spurned the Knicks during his first free agency keruffle, and they have a huge fanbase as well who are now salty af about the dude.

A lot of Bulls fans resent him for single handedly castrating their star player and entire team over a period of 3-4 years. And also as a protection mechanism to make sure he doesnt get too close to MJ's legacy to threaten it in any way.


Basically hes public enemy number 1 for a lot of the major fan bases in the league currently. If Kobe played for the Bucks and Bran had never faced the Bulls in the playoffs etc thered prob be less hate. Just kind of a confluence of circumstances.

This is a quality answer, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Westbrook0]

Actually Kobe was the 1st I experienced get hated really hard, his was due to many factors but I think the main deal was the rise of the Internet and message boards such as these.

Lebron is the 1st social media era goat candidate. It's natural everything gets hated on nowadays, guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird, etc benefited from a far more friendly media limited era. We only had local papers and magazines along with the occasional scripted fluff interviews on tv back then. The only way to be hated back then was to be a truly bad guy. Times have most definitely changed.

Edit edit edit:
Most importantly than all else. We have access to pretty much every second of a player's career in this era. In previous eras reputations were built on limited national tv exposure and home markets only. The flaws are far more evident when you have the entire picture in front of you instead of just highlights.

Good point as well.

[KendrickPerkins]

I don't thing Lebron is hated outside this forum. Just a bunch of immature Jackoffbe fans. Some guys have plenty of account in this forum.

KObe is also hated in this forum until now.
He definitely is though.

Either you're a fan or you hate him. At least that's what I've encountered.

The Kobestard/LeBron fan rivalry actually exists.

[Westbrook0]

He definitely is though.

Either you're a fan or you hate him. At least that's what I've encountered.

The Kobestard/LeBron fan rivalry actually exists.

What reason would someone legitimately have to hate LeBron, outside of internet forum trolling?

[KendrickPerkins]

What reason would someone legitimately have to hate LeBron, outside of internet forum trolling?
They pick a side and run with it.

Just like people either hate or love obama, there's usually not a lot of middle ground.

Just is what it is. People are stupid, especially the Kobe stans.

[sdot_thadon]

They pick a side and run with it.

Just like people either hate or love obama, there's usually not a lot of middle ground.

Just is what it is. People are stupid, especially the Kobe stans.
Right, people seem to believe there's no way they can be a fan of both. I've got friends that think this way. Pretty funny too, how big a perceived rivalry it became when it was never really an actual one. Thank nike and those dumb puppets.

[sd3035]

It's pretty obvious isn't it?

Flopping, whining, stat padding, colluding, emo selfies, hair plugs, throwing teammates under the bus, choking, etc

[Trollsmasher]

A lot of it has to do with the size of the Laker fan base. Bron is a clear threat to Kobe's legacy and all time rank, so kobe stans swarm like ants or locust etc to attack and put down Bron.

Then you have the fact that Lebron teased and spurned the Knicks during his first free agency keruffle, and they have a huge fanbase as well who are now salty af about the dude.

A lot of Bulls fans resent him for single handedly castrating their star player and entire team over a period of 3-4 years. And also as a protection mechanism to make sure he doesnt get too close to MJ's legacy to threaten it in any way.


Basically hes public enemy number 1 for a lot of the major fan bases in the league currently. If Kobe played for the Bucks and Bran had never faced the Bulls in the playoffs etc thered prob be less hate. Just kind of a confluence of circumstances.
well articulated and thought out post:applause:

[WillC]

Shaq also divided fans; some thought he was great and loved him because of his larger-than-life personality, whereas others thought his style of play went against the rules (i.e. offensive fouling during his post play) and dominated purely because of his size. Like Goliath, many fans wanted to see Shaq lose, especially against smaller players like Iverson and his Sixers.

But, whereas Shaq was disliked because of his perceived bully-boy tactics, LeBron and Kobe are disliked by fans because of their sheer arrogance and holier-than-thou attitudes. Both act like spoiled brats at times, pampered by the media from a young age.

Jordan was, of course, similarly arrogant. However, he didn't enter the league as the Chosen One, and, instead, actually outperformed everyone's expectations.

As for Bird and Magic (along with Dr J), they were universally liked because of their playing style and charismatic personalities. Although not on their level, the same was true of players like Grant Hill, David Robinson and, more so, Steve Nash.

Fans want their all-time greats to be likeable. That's why Kevin Durant and Steph Curry have proven so popular; both seem like decent guys who you could enjoy a beer with.

It's hard to like Kobe Bryant or LeBron James.

Now, historically, one of the most disliked superstars was Oscar Robertson who, rightly or wrongly, was vilified by the press and the antithesis of the All-American hero, Jerry West.

Likewise, Wilt Chamberlain was almost like Shaq in that people were in awe of him and liked his friendly persona, but also wanted to see him lose. Nobody cheers for Goliath, as he once famously said.

So, in conclusion, no, not all of the all-time greats were bashed or disrespected. Just those who acted a certain arrogant way.

[WillC]

While I think about it, it's worth analysing the popularity of a couple of other all-time greats, both on different ends of the popularity spectrum.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was hugely popular when he was in college, at UCLA. Of course, back then he was Lew Alcindor, and fans were excited to see him enter the league - he was regarded as the new Wilt Chamberlain. However, his moody, sullen, outspoken persona didn't sit well with the American public - nor did his religious beliefs - so, while he was well-respected, fans just didn't warm to him in the same way that they did other superstars. It was only really in his twilight years that fans started to cheer him; his last year or two in the League were somewhat of a retirement tour.

"You don't know what you've got until it's gone".

It'll be the same way with Kobe this year, just you see. Most fans hated him for 18 years but now they'll want to pay their respects and see him one more time.

Now for a more popular all-time great: John Havlicek. He was hugely popular and I don't remember a bad word being said about him. Hondo earned his dues as a bench player and then progressed to being arguably the best player in the league, with an outstanding work ethic. What's not to like?

[GimmeThat]

Greats?

any time anyone talked to someone else about one who is great, and start with the conversation "that someone/person" is something special


without being echoed with agreements, what are they treated with.?


"well, that person/someone can do that, but can thy do this/something else, later on?"

some people know, some people recognize


just do it? I think therefore I am

[Psileas]

Shaq also divided fans; some thought he was great and loved him because of his larger-than-life personality, whereas others thought his style of play went against the rules (i.e. offensive fouling during his post play) and dominated purely because of his size. Like Goliath, many fans wanted to see Shaq lose, especially against smaller players like Iverson and his Sixers.

But, whereas Shaq was disliked because of his perceived bully-boy tactics, LeBron and Kobe are disliked by fans because of their sheer arrogance and holier-than-thou attitudes. Both act like spoiled brats at times, pampered by the media from a young age.

Jordan was, of course, similarly arrogant. However, he didn't enter the league as the Chosen One, and, instead, actually outperformed everyone's expectations.

As for Bird and Magic (along with Dr J), they were universally liked because of their playing style and charismatic personalities. Although not on their level, the same was true of players like Grant Hill, David Robinson and, more so, Steve Nash.

Fans want their all-time greats to be likeable. That's why Kevin Durant and Steph Curry have proven so popular; both seem like decent guys who you could enjoy a beer with.

It's hard to like Kobe Bryant or LeBron James.

Now, historically, one of the most disliked superstars was Oscar Robertson who, rightly or wrongly, was vilified by the press and the antithesis of the All-American hero, Jerry West.

Likewise, Wilt Chamberlain was almost like Shaq in that people were in awe of him and liked his friendly persona, but also wanted to see him lose. Nobody cheers for Goliath, as he once famously said.

So, in conclusion, no, not all of the all-time greats were bashed or disrespected. Just those who acted a certain arrogant way.

(On my bolded): Not me. I love bigs, the game has tried and still tries to limit their dominance because "it knows" bigs are the real best players of it, but unfortunately, bigs don't create the fuzz smalls with their flashy style do and audience always matters.

[GimmeThat]

(On my bolded): Not me. I love bigs, the game has tried and still tries to limit their dominance because "it knows" bigs are the real best players of it, but unfortunately, bigs don't create the fuzz smalls with their flashy style do and audience always matters.

only if you are the student, would you know it.

know how many point guards that took years to develope, just to get the right balance of every minute the coach has decided to put them on the floor?

I would have to say this is maybe where Deron Williams had fallen off. which really does make that Lionel Hollins hiring a great move for the Nets.


I may contribute it to his tendency on utilizing the 3 as a part of the front court. and it'll really break away Deron's old playing style, if he can still be the passer the league has come to expect him to be.

anyone really misses Kirilenko's playing style?

[choppermagic]

It's pretty obvious isn't it?

Flopping, whining, stat padding, colluding, emo selfies, hair plugs, throwing teammates under the bus, choking, etc


Yup, as unfairly as it might sound, a player's personality and how they came across to the general media will have an effect on how they will be remembered. I think Lebron will suffer a downgrade over time, like other players who were surly in the past. It happens when media and other people don't write favorable articles about him after he retires and how stories about him might be about his ego or the drama of switching teams in his career.

While other players who have traits like loyalty like Duncan will probably enjoy a reputation bump after he retires as people appreciate things he brought to the NBA.

[superteamtheory]

Shaq and Duncan were hated on, more so Shaq ..

Duncan just because he was perceived as boring and also some found him overrated -- actually some still do, I've seen that argued in these forums, that he's a glorified role player these days, that he has the appeal of a Christian rock band (that is a funny line tho :rockon: )… Duncan still gets a bit of hate but less post-2013&2014 runs, those seemed to bring about some reevaluation of the guy (and Spurs, whose name got dirtied a bit because of the 07 Suns series suspension controversies... and then the Spurs weren't able to win again for a while which didn't redeem them for a long time) ... Because minds are a little more enlightened these days, he generally gets bigtime respect now.. altho, as I get older, I'm starting to realize he still doesn't get enough. This is the greatest PF ever, he should be getting at least the buzz Magic got as greatest PG.

Shaq got various criticisms from the moment he entered but to me the most important were when he got swept in the Finals was thought a born loser (lacks the killer instinct etc., stuff that looks silly now -- let's face it he lost because he was inexperienced and because Hakeem and the Rockets were great) and then he took tons of heat when he made the original "Decision" to take his talents to West Coast... and held the long televised press conference and also got at-that-time-alltime-huge contact from L.A. that was debated by some … and THEN the harshest judgements came (prematurely, as they typically do) when Shaq's Lakers weren't able to win duringhis 1st 3 years: "Shaq is a great player but he'll never be one of the all-time great centres, can't win a ring etc." and then Phil Jackson showed up and the rest is history… his big accomplishment with the Heat franchise just further cemented the legacy...

Magic got a major media beatdown when Bird defeated him the first time -- they labelled him a choker etc. sort of like many did with Bron in 2011, same thing happened with Dr. J too when he couldn't win … Bird meanwhile was disliked by some in the black communities of 80's basketballwatching America -- the Lakers were seen as the more progressive streetball friendly team, lots of black players, whereas the Celtics had a lot of whiteboys and with Bird as their poster boy were seen as sort of the team white people want to win … I mean, all this is silly, but this is apparently was the feeling on the street (so claims the Magic & Bird documentary anyway .. and I kinda believe it, makes sense), I think the Isaiah Thomas comment about Bird is "overrated because he's white" kinda shows the sentiment of the times (it was such a sensitive issue they actually had to have a peacemaking press conference before a Finals game to clear the air)…

Jordan had a lot of disbelievers, skeptics, critics etc. early on -- a lot of the criticisms you hear about Kobe today, he takes it himself or shoots all the time etc., same sort of things with Jordan early on (and some are still claiming this is Jordan's flaw… I never really bought it, he's too effective and I bet it's the same with Kobe or Allen Iverson -- they'll give the rock up if you're worth giving it to) …and anyway it took a while for the consensus to come around to the idea that he might be the best ever… it was a big deal when Bird came out and said "God disguised as MJ"… and then wMJ ran into some trouble with the back to back to back Bad Boys series they lost… but I mean, once that was over with, the tide turned in a huge way, MJ wasn't God to the league (that might be David Stern, or Stern is the devil, take your pick) but MJ was definitely elevated to Christlike worship so far as basketball goes..


For Kobe, it was a combination of things, that he couldn't make it work with Shaq for a few more years, that there was off court courtroom drama, that the team didn't immediately contend with him as the man now, that he's not as talented or as tough as Jordan was and is a spoiled prince vs. His Airness (this backlash belief happening when Kobe isn't able to win a ring yet, peaking around 2008 because of the Finals loss), then later when they started failing again (2011 they get swept by Mavs) it was that he doesn't play well others, that he's scaring free agents away that could help Lakers contend again, etc. ... A lot of it is garbage. ... Some of how he carries himself, comments like "Friends come and go but banners last forever" rub people the wrong way too... But I dunno, I always found Kobe hugely likeable albeit a bit tunnel-visioned ... I thought Kobe had a better sense of humour than Jordan and more boyish glee when he was winning (Jordan was always crying, seemingly in agony) ... Kobe would take the dramatic ill-advised shots where Jordan would make the more efficient play (like Duncanbot), so Jordan's stats would come out cleaner but Kobe was often more outrageous, more delirious fun. ... But this is getting off topic... Point is, Kobe was criticized for not playing smarter, letting emotions get in the way etc. ... And man, the hate goes on really for Kobe... I mean people act as if he couldn't have won 5 rings without Shaq... but all it takes is for some years to turn out a little more ideal, situationally, he absolutely could have won at various times that he did not, it wasn't his shortcomings holding it back, it was Lakers' management.. (But I better not get them going about that either since they seem to believe they have a great GM...) Kobe gets almost as much hate as Bron...

But Bron ... I think the basic thing is people have got it into their head he's lacking toughness somehow. Granted, I see how this was influenced by various events and factors: his naturally strong body, his needing a great sidekick, the No AC cramp game even tho Barkley has gone on record: no player has defeated the cramps ever, his wearing down during the 2015 run -- many expect him to instead fly around and shoot laser beams from his hands when his roster is depleted -- and maybe some other factors, he seems reluctant to drive (at times, not all the time, sometime he just bowls guys over Shaq-style), settles for awkward jumpers and maybe hasn't worked on the midrange or postgame as much as he needs to, has defensive inconsistencies... whereas ubermachoman Jordan or the other greatest SF ever, Bird... that's who he's supposed to be like... I mean, these things apply somewhat to Kobe, but Kobe's got the better jumper as bailout and until recently the more explosive firststep so he escapes more media wrath...

The fact that Bron is indeed the first truly internet-era player, the first to be so hypermonitored every misstep or gasp of the way, this does not help the situation, haters are constantly surveilling his every move (yet ignoring the highlights) and always scheming new ways to make him look bad...

Is this the new norm? Maybe.. I just don't think it'll matter for anybody else.. It matters for Jordan, Kobe, Bron because it seemed that at one point (around 2010ish) *mainstream* belief of the moment opinion was that these would be the three best the league ever sees... (Interesting how just 5 years changes tunes...) Because Kobe and LBJ came directly after Jordan's era, people could make very easy, meaningful comparisons... It may not be as easy to draw parallels with the future GOAT contenders whenever they come around (which honestly may not be for a while... I do *think* Wiggins will be a great one, just not that great, more Julius Erving level popularity than MJ/Kobe/Bron) ... I really don't think there'll ever be the same significance or level of hype again... but I dunno for sure because the league is gonna last at least another hundred years if the world doesn't end before then..

[superteamtheory]

Yup, as unfairly as it might sound, a player's personality and how they came across to the general media will have an effect on how they will be remembered. I think Lebron will suffer a downgrade over time, like other players who were surly in the past. It happens when media and other people don't write favorable articles about him after he retires and how stories about him might be about his ego or the drama of switching teams in his career.

While other players who have traits like loyalty like Duncan will probably enjoy a reputation bump after he retires as people appreciate things he brought to the NBA.

LeBron's career highlight reel > Duncan's

^ that's what the kids of the future will care about... they may grow to respect Duncan more as they learn .. but the eye test will favor LeBron (and Kobe)

[StrongLurk]

Lebron isn't an all time great...