Dirk Nowitzki MVP 2006 [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

pastis

07-20-2015, 12:11 PM

Saw a discussion about players who were robbed on realgm. Besides the typical discussion about Rose MVP 2011 or Pau Gasol FMVP in 2010, or Duncan not gettin an DPOY-award, here an interesting one:

Some people say Kobe shoud have won over Nash in 2006. Here are Dirks numbers:

Winning 60 Games
led the league in Win Shares,
led the league in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes,
led the league in Offensive Win Shares, Offensive Rating and Player Efficiency Rating
7th in Points Per Game, 17th in Defensive Win Shares, 6th Defensive Rebounds, 14th in Total Rebounds, 16th in Rebounds per game, 7th in Value Over Replacement Player.
Stats: 26.6 PTS, 9.0 TRB, 1.0 BLK, 2.8 AST, 0.7 STL, 48.0 FG%, 40.6 3PT%, 90.1 FT%.

What about Dirk with an All-Defensive Team. nomination? Most people calling him a bad defender never watched him from 2003-2011, or at least not on a regular basis.

In 2003 he was 6th in Defensive Win Shares, 18th in Defensive Rating, 4th in Defensive Rebounds, 7th in Total Rebounds & Rebounds Per Game and 1.0 Blk & 1.4 STL per Game).
In 2005 he was 6th in Defensive Win Shares, 13th in Defensive Rating, 3rd in Defensive Rebounds, 9th in Total Rebounds & Rebounds Per Game, 18th in Blocks (1.5 Blk per Game) and 1.2 STL per Game.
From 2001 and 2010 he was always a top 20/25 player in Defensive Win Shares, Defensive Rating & always one of the top 5 in defensive rebounds & steals by a big man.

Dirk didnt make the all-star game 2001 while putting up 21.8/9.2/2.1 with 60.1 TS% and 2nd in WS, 3rd in WS/48, 4th in OWS...on the other hand other players are locked as an all-star even without playing....

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 12:16 PM

Dude was most definitely robbed...

1. Better team record
2. Less talent around him
3. Better statistically than Nash
4. Proved it more by carrying them deeper in the post-season

Top 15 all-time

Akrazotile

07-20-2015, 12:16 PM

Two words:

RAY CISM

pastis

07-20-2015, 12:20 PM

Dude was most definitely robbed...

1. Better team record
2. Less talent around him
3. Better statistically than Nash
4. Proved it more by carrying them deeper in the post-season

Top 15 all-time

:applause: :applause:

it kinda makes me sick to know that dirk could have won it a few times more with a solid big next to him, putting up between 15-19ppg and 10-12 reb on 50-60% with solid Defense.....he never had this in his prime....and then just 3 year of phil or pop.....that he would have won 1 more ring isnt crazy to think about imo
about a very long strecth Terry was his second best player....terry shot 3x times under 40% in the playoffs.

obvisoulsy kobe and lebron are way better players....but Dirk is underrated and nearly already forgotten.

Hamtaro CP3KDKG

07-20-2015, 12:20 PM

He was robbed for sure. Kobe didn't have the team record for it, Nash isn't on the same level not even close.

Dirk shouldve won in 11 too TBH

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 12:22 PM

He was robbed for sure. Kobe didn't have the team record for it, Nash isn't on the same level not even close.

Dirk shouldve won in 11 too TBH

What was he 4th in voting that year?

It's crazy...

Dallas was was 2-7 (.222) without Dirk, 1-3 (.250) with a getting-into-shape/limited minutes Dirk, and 54-15 (.783) with a healthy Dirk, which was the best record in the NBA..!!

edit:

:applause: :applause:

it kinda makes me sick to know that dirk could have won it a few times more with a solid big next to him, putting up between 15-19ppg and 10-12 reb on 50-60% with solid Defense.....he never had this in his prime....and then just 3 year of phil or pop.....that he would have won 1 more ring isnt crazy to think about imo
about a very long strecth Terry was his second best player....terry shot 3x times under 40% in the playoffs.

obvisoulsy kobe and lebron are way better players....but Dirk is underrated and nearly already forgotten.

I wouldn't even say Kobe is a way better player... I think their impact year-by-year is really close.

pastis

07-20-2015, 12:25 PM

What was he 4th in voting that year?

It's crazy...

Dallas was was 2-7 (.222) without Dirk, 1-3 (.250) with a getting-into-shape/limited minutes Dirk, and 54-15 (.783) with a healthy Dirk, which was the best record in the NBA..!!

yes DIrk had a legit shot....lebron, dirk, kobe...should have been the top 3 mvp-voting in 2011

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 12:26 PM

yes DIrk had a legit shot....lebron, dirk, kobe...should have been the top 3 mvp-voting in 2011

Kobe had zero reason to be top 3.

What Howard did was pretty damn good, on an all-time scale. That was peak Howard, defensive anchor/DPOTY, 20+ ppg scorer, top rebounder, took an average Orlando team to home court.

pastis

07-20-2015, 12:27 PM

Kobe had zero reason to be top 3.

What Howard did was pretty damn good, on an all-time scale. That was peak Howard, defensive anchor/DPOTY, 20+ ppg scorer, top rebounder, kept an average Orlando team holding home court.

yes that was crazy as well.

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 12:27 PM

lol, Dirk was actually 6th in MVP voting in 2011... behind KD/KB :lol :facepalm

...

two words:

RAY CISM!

kennethgriffin

07-20-2015, 12:29 PM

Its obvious kobe deserved a 1988 jordan type mvp in 2006

pastis

07-20-2015, 12:30 PM

lol, Dirk was actually 6th in MVP voting in 2011... behind KD/KB :lol :facepalm

damn only sixth :facepalm :facepalm

pastis

07-20-2015, 12:31 PM

Its obvious kobe deserved a 1988 jordan type mvp in 2006

what does an "1988-jordan-type"-MVP mean? serious question

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 12:33 PM

Its obvious kobe deserved a 1988 jordan type mvp in 2006

Kobe's 35/5/5 on 45% looks alot more like 2006 Iverson 33/3/7 on 45% than 1988 Jordan 35/6/6 on 54% on a 50-win team and the 3rd seed

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

07-20-2015, 12:34 PM

what does an "1988-jordan-type"-MVP mean? serious question

Having the stats, but your teams record is so-so (off the top, I believe the bulls were 3rd or 4th in the eastern conference alone).

Kobe had a legit case for MVP. But so did a few others.

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 12:35 PM

Having the stats, but your teams record is so-so (off the top, i believe the bulls were 4th or 5th in the eastern conference alone).

Kobe had a legit case for MVP. But so did a few others.

3rd act.

Akrazotile

07-20-2015, 12:37 PM

What was he 4th in voting that year?

It's crazy...

Dallas was was 2-7 (.222) without Dirk, 1-3 (.250) with a getting-into-shape/limited minutes Dirk, and 54-15 (.783) with a healthy Dirk, which was the best record in the NBA..!!

edit:

I wouldn't even say Kobe is a way better player... I think their impact year-by-year is really close.

I have Dirk comfortably ahead of Kobe in the all-time impact/eye test GOAT rankings.

It is what it is. Kobe stans just need to learn how to deal.

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

07-20-2015, 12:39 PM

3rd act.

Ninja edit, fool ... :pimp:

But yeah, I would have no qualms with anyone having Dirk as MVP. Second best record out West (the best conference) with a decent supporting cast, better stats than Nash, and you guys said it best, he backed it up in the playoffs with an epic game 7 @ San Antonio and a finals appearance to boot.

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 12:42 PM

Ninja edit, fool ... :pimp:

But yeah, I would have no qualms with anyone having Dirk as MVP. Second best record out West (the best conference) with a decent supporting cast, better stats than Nash, and you guys said it best, he backed it up in the playoffs with an epic game 7 @ San Antonio and a finals appearance to boot.

That ****ed up playoff seeding format, Mavs with 60 wins and the #2 record v.s. Spurs with 63 wins and the #1 record... in the 2nd round... :facepalm

I mean, that was the WCF... in terms of records and team strength, but if we ACTUALLY HAD that as the WCF, and the series plays out the same way, it just would have made it all a bit more legendary.

aj1987

07-20-2015, 12:44 PM

STATUTORY

07-20-2015, 12:44 PM

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 12:46 PM

:coleman:

:rolleyes:

:confusedshrug:

:no:

pastis

07-20-2015, 12:47 PM

not even hitler would have dirk in the top 15

blonde, 7foot tall, alpha-warrior-genetics....Hitler would have had Dirk nr. 1 dude :lol

seriously, i think you can rank him 15-20 all time. saying that, everyone outside the locked top 10 are difficult to rank. So Dirk has def. a case to be up in the top 15-18...but so do other players as well....

STATUTORY

07-20-2015, 12:48 PM

blonde, 7foot tall, alpha-warrior-genetics....Hitler would have had Dirk nr. 1 dude :lol

http://d236bkdxj385sg.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Dirk-Nowitzki-Jessica-Olsoon.jpg

http://www.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/49-hitler.jpg

kuniva_dAMiGhTy

07-20-2015, 12:51 PM

That ****ed up playoff seeding format, Mavs with 60 wins and the #2 record v.s. Spurs with 63 wins and the #1 record... in the 2nd round... :facepalm

I mean, that was the WCF... in terms of records and team strength, but if we ACTUALLY HAD that as the WCF, and the series plays out the same way, it just would have made it all a bit more legendary.

The series vs Phoenix is an afterthought in history (no Amare), so I think of Dirk's G7 as a WCF performance anyway. Hah

What an amazing game though. Undoubtedly his revenge from the 2003 debacle (when healthy that was the best Mavs team of all-time imo).

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 12:51 PM

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/Basketball/Dirk%20Nowitzki/tumblr_llq3xsgnze1qiaw26o1_400_zpswstifok1-1.png
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/Basketball/Dirk%20Nowitzki/Dirk_zpswmyzlyha.gif
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/Basketball/Dirk%20Nowitzki/dal_mavericks_06_zps8j0n16oq.jpg
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/Basketball/Dirk%20Nowitzki/Dirk-Nowitzki-charging_zps83e02870.jpg

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/0Rqx1gQ_zpshjstukhx.gif

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 12:54 PM

The series vs Phoenix is an afterthought in history (no Amare), so I think of Dirk's G7 as a WCF performance anyway. Hah

What an amazing game though. Undoubtedly his revenge from the 2003 debacle (when healthy that was the best Mavs team of all-time imo).

the 2003 one? Yeah, probably the only one that could also be deemed 'stacked' in Dirk's prime... and in THAT year, in the WCF, Dirk suffers his only mid-playoffs injury of his career, ending the season.... :lol :facepalm :cry:

StephHamann

07-20-2015, 01:03 PM

AW has the haters shook

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 01:08 PM

AW has the haters shook

always :pimp:

Wade's Rings

07-20-2015, 01:08 PM

Dude was most definitely robbed...

1. Better team record
2. Less talent around him
3. Better statistically than Nash

Nash won 54 Games without Amare that year. Comparing their Role Players they seemed about even statistically.

4. Proved it more by carrying them deeper in the post-season

Top 15 all-time

The Post Season doesn't decide the MVP :facepalm If so Wade would probably have 2 MVPs.

riseagainst

07-20-2015, 01:11 PM

i don't care what rank people put him. He is one of the most liked players ever. And he is unselfish and driven to win, very competitive. Incredibly skilled obviously. Probably the greatest shooting big man ever. I'm so blessed to have him play for my city.

:bowdown:

Hamtaro CP3KDKG

07-20-2015, 01:13 PM

Dirk is EASILY top 15 lol nikkas trippin

Young X

07-20-2015, 01:21 PM

He should've won it that year.

Nash wasn't any better individually and was on a lower seeded team. Kobe's team was a 7th seed, I don't think any MVP has ever been on a seed lower than 3rd at least in the modern era.

Looking back, Nash should've won in '07 if anything. It should've been the other way around.

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 01:23 PM

He should've won it that year.

Nash wasn't any better individually and was on a lower seeded team. Kobe's team was a 7th seed, I don't think any MVP has ever been a seed lower than 3rd at least in the modern era.

Looking back, Nash should've won in '07 if anything. It should've been the other way around.

Nash had a better argument in 2007 than 2006? Probably.. but he still shouldn't have won over Dirk, who won 67 games with perhaps the weakest roster to ever win just sixty+ games (among those LeBron 60 win teams).

Wade's Rings

07-20-2015, 01:27 PM

Nash had a better argument in 2007 than 2006? Probably.. but he still shouldn't have won over Dirk, who won 67 games with perhaps the weakest roster to ever win just sixty+ games (among those LeBron 60 win teams).

Those teams were amazing Defensively.

Hamtaro CP3KDKG

07-20-2015, 01:27 PM

Young X

07-20-2015, 01:32 PM

That's why I said "if anything".

Nash's regular season in '07 was ridiculous and his team won 61 games. Dirk still deserved it more but Nash's argument was better in '07 than '06.

superteamtheory

07-20-2015, 01:41 PM

I'll say this for Kobe: That 2006 roster, without him, is going down as one of the worst teams ever.

But Dirk.. as the OP outlined.. is in his defensive prime, known by now as one of the most unstoppable offensive forces ever, very capable rebounder... Dirk is having one of his most Kareem Abdul-Jabbar esque seasons in 06..

(It was Bosh who first compared Dirk's one legged fadeaway to the Kareem hook. Ever since then I've started to see peak Dirk years as approaching Jabbar-like greatness.)

...

And yeah, I see people on here talking about the 2003 injury series... while we can't know for sure of course... :cry: it would have been beautiful for those Mavs to win that year..

HighFlyer23

07-20-2015, 02:23 PM

There are not more than 15 players who are better than Dirk in NBA history.

And yeah, he and Kobe definitely deserved it over Nash that year

TheMarkMadsen

07-20-2015, 03:18 PM

when your MVP competition comes to your home court and literally beats your team by himself.. you don't win MVP

besides the Dirk and the Mavs had just lost a series the previous year in which his former teammate killed them..

Dirk's teammate left, won MVP and beat him in the playoffs.. Dirk wasn't about to win MVP a year after that shit lol

had a great year though

Megabox!

07-20-2015, 03:45 PM

TheMarkMadsen

07-20-2015, 03:56 PM

You don't judge whether a player deserves the MVP off of a playoff series that happened last god damn season or 1 regular season game.

uhhh MVP is all about narrative, and the narrative for Dirk that year was that he had been playing with an MVP and then got beat by his former teammate..

players get judged for shit that happened in the playoffs all the time that ends up affecting their MVP status for the next season.. that's just common knowledge

and yes, when an MVP candidate comes to your floor and beats your team by himself in historic fashion it's hard to claim that you are the best in the game and deserve MVP

MVP has come down to 1 regular season game plenty of times, there are always games at the end of the year featuring the top 2 MVP candidates which ultimately sway the MVP voting big time if both players were seen as having equal seasons up to that point..

KD & Lebron in 14, Curry & Harden in 15, hell Kobe & Cp3 basically came down to the last game of the season of 08..

Young X

07-20-2015, 03:58 PM

^ That Dallas/Lakers game happened in December tho...

TheMarkMadsen

07-20-2015, 04:00 PM

^ That Dallas/Lakers game happened in December tho...

point being that one regular season game between two MVP candidates can do a lot to sway voters, as it has in the past.

BlakFrankWhite

07-20-2015, 04:06 PM

Meh, KD was more deserving in 2013...than Dirk in '06

28-8-5 on 50/40/90

Leading OKC to 60 wins in the wild west

Rocketswin2013

07-20-2015, 04:07 PM

No amount of history revision can change the fact that Nash had a top 3 impact on winning from.'04-'06. He deserved both of his MVP's. He was also top 5 at worst in terms of impact in '07.

DMV2

07-20-2015, 04:07 PM

He was robbed for sure. Kobe didn't have the team record for it, Nash isn't on the same level not even close.

Dirk shouldve won in 11 too TBH
If you just go by efficiency...yes.

Dirk was extremely conservative after he sustained his Dec. injury.

Rocketswin2013

07-20-2015, 04:11 PM

Meh, KD was more deserving in 2013...than Dirk in '06

28-8-5 on 50/40/90

Leading OKC to 60 wins in the wild west
So Dirk didn't deserve consideration at, all? Durant had no case over LeBron 2013. I was actually going to make a thread on how underrated Durant's entire 2013 was. Better than '15 Curry, or anyone else in 2015.

BlakFrankWhite

07-20-2015, 04:12 PM

Saying Kobe deserved MVP in '06...is like saying Westbrook deserved MVP this season (which he didn't )

Young X

07-20-2015, 04:19 PM

point being that one regular season game between two MVP candidates can do a lot to sway voters, as it has in the past.But Kobe didn't end up winning. He wasn't even top 3 in voting and Dirk still finished above him.

The other games you're referring to were the top 2 MVP candidates at the end of the season. That wasn't the case with that 62 in 3 quarters game.

Meh, KD was more deserving in 2013...than Dirk in '06

28-8-5 on 50/40/90

Leading OKC to 60 wins in the wild westNo he wasn't.

Lebron had one of the greatest regular seasons of all time in 2013 and led his team to a better record winning 27 games in a row at one point. KD had no argument over him, shit was almost unanimous.

Dirk on the other hand was on a higher seeded team than Nash while being better individually and was on a much more successful team than Kobe. He had the best argument that season when you look back at it.

branslowski

07-20-2015, 04:51 PM

Posters saying "Dirk>>>Kobe All-Time" :facepalm

Hamtaro CP3KDKG

07-20-2015, 04:55 PM

Posters saying "Dirk>>>Kobe All-Time" :facepalm
Kobes better but theyre on similar tiers. Dirk just been mad underrated his whole career hes prob better in the playoffs

mehyaM24

07-20-2015, 04:56 PM

But Kobe didn't end up winning. He wasn't even top 3 in voting and Dirk still finished above him.

The other games you're referring to were the top 2 MVP candidates at the end of the season. That wasn't the case with that 62 in 3 quarters game.

No he wasn't.

Lebron had one of the greatest regular seasons of all time in 2013 and led his team to a better record winning 27 games in a row at one point. KD had no argument over him, shit was almost unanimous.

Dirk on the other hand was on a higher seeded team than Nash while being better individually and was on a much more successful team than Kobe. He had the best argument that season when you look back at it.

nash is and always has been overrated. great impact on the offensive end, but still a product of d'antoni's system - plus he doesn't play a lick of defense.

lebron could have won in 2006 and 2007. nobody would bat an eye, because he was the better player and his teams overachieved.

branslowski

07-20-2015, 05:02 PM

Kobes better but theyre on similar tiers. Dirk just been mad underrated his whole career hes prob better in the playoffs

No

Magic 32

07-20-2015, 05:07 PM

Kobe's 35/5/5 on 45% looks alot more like 2006 Iverson 33/3/7 on 45% than 1988 Jordan 35/6/6 on 54% on a 50-win team and the 3rd seed

Smush + Kwame + Luke + Western Conference = 45 wins

Miraculous

kentatm

07-20-2015, 05:21 PM

I've always kind of thought that his 2007 MVP was a make up for him not getting it in 06.

ArbitraryWater

07-20-2015, 06:55 PM

Meh, KD was more deserving in 2013...than Dirk in '06

28-8-5 on 50/40/90

Leading OKC to 60 wins in the wild west

Thats...not close to being right, though.

In fact, KD didn't get a SINGLE MVP winning (first place) vote.

No amount of history revision can change the fact that Nash had a top 3 impact on winning from.'04-'06. He deserved both of his MVP's. He was also top 5 at worst in terms of impact in '07.

agreed, Nash gets underrated alot in retrospect, but Dirk did deserve 2006 more.

TheMarkMadsen

07-20-2015, 07:12 PM

But Kobe didn't end up winning. He wasn't even top 3 in voting and Dirk still finished above him.

The other games you're referring to were the top 2 MVP candidates at the end of the season. That wasn't the case with that 62 in 3 quarters game.

what's your point here?? regular season game can and have swayed voting which as my point

and LOL at you bringing up where Kobe finished.. he was 2nd in first place votes yet 4th overall.. there were literally sports writers who left Kobe off the ballot out of spite..

I remember Barkley specifically going off about Kobe being left off ballots

anyways who cares about MVP, Dirk made the finals while the guy in his conference who won it did not make the finals..

I'm sure Dirk or any star player for that matter would take a finals trip over an MVP 10/10

Cali Syndicate

07-20-2015, 08:00 PM

Megabox!

07-20-2015, 08:29 PM

uhhh MVP is all about narrative, and the narrative for Dirk that year was that he had been playing with an MVP and then got beat by his former teammate..

players get judged for shit that happened in the playoffs all the time that ends up affecting their MVP status for the next season.. that's just common knowledge
What? :oldlol: nobody takes in what happen in the previous season to choose the league MVP. If that was the case then LBJ wouldn't have gotten it in 2012 since he was so damn bad in the 2011 finals. "Well last year Dirk lost to a former teammate so let's completely dismiss everything he's done this season and give the MVP to someone else." What kind of shit is that? :oldlol:

mehyaM24

07-20-2015, 08:40 PM

What? :oldlol: nobody takes in what happen in the previous season to choose the league MVP. If that was the case then LBJ wouldn't have gotten it in 2012 since he was so damn bad in the 2011 finals. "Well last year Dirk lost to a former teammate so let's completely dismiss everything he's done this season and give the MVP to someone else." What kind of shit is that? :oldlol:
kobe crying to stephen a smith and begging to be traded awarded him mvp votes in 2008. duh.

StephHamann

07-21-2015, 11:58 AM

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-21-2015/4-qE7z.gif

Dirk with the Hakeem/Robinson on Bran

:bowdown:

pastis

07-21-2015, 01:01 PM

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-21-2015/4-qE7z.gif

Dirk with the Hakeem/Robinson on Bran

:bowdown:

that game was crazy. g3 of the finals. dirk scored the las 14 mavericks points and egalized 2x times with tough shots in the last 2 minutes. unfortunatelly he missed the game winner.

but the turn-around fadeaway against wade was just brilliant to watch in that game
:applause:

Papaya Petee

07-21-2015, 04:46 PM

Did someone say Dirk deserved 2011 MVP?:lol

Lebron, Wade, Rose, Dwight, Durant and even Kobe had better regular seasons than Dirk.

Playoffs had nothing to do with regular season MVP

Dirk was at 22/7/3 on a 57-25 team. Not even close.

Fire Colangelo

07-21-2015, 05:03 PM

Meh, all about the narrative...

The narrative in 05 was that Nash turned around a 29 win team. Critics responded that Amare's emergence was the main reason the Suns turnaround. Nash proceeded to lead the Suns to 54 wins without Amare for the year and shut down all the critics.

Great season by Nash imo, you can't deny his impact on the team. They probably barely win 20 wins without him.