2 killer thread ideas

[3ball]

1) Why did MJ's 33/8/8 on 54% get the Bulls only 47 wins in 1989, while Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49% got the Cavs 66 wins in 2010?


2) Let's compare MJ's playoffs stats versus the team that won the championship (1986 Celtics, 1989 Pistons, 1990 Pistons), to Lebron's stats versus the champs (2007 Spurs, 2008 Celtics, 2011 Mavs, 2014 Spurs, 2015 Warriors).

Anyone want to do that work?... I can tell you right now based on guesstimate, that MJ's stats are about 36/7/6 on 50%, while Lebron's are about 26/9/7 on 40%.

[sd3035]

1) Why did MJ's 33/8/8 on 54% get the Bulls only 47 wins in 1989, while Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49% got the Cavs 66 wins in 2010?


2) Let's compare MJ's playoffs stats versus the team that won the championship (1986 Celtics, 1989 Pistons, 1990 Pistons), to Lebron's stats versus the champs (2007 Spurs, 2008 Celtics, 2011 Mavs, 2014 Spurs, 2015 Warriors).

Anyone want to do that work?... I can tell you right now based on guesstimate, that MJ's stats are about 36/7/6 on 50%, while Lebron's are about 26/9/7 on 40%.

LOL I don't think anyone really believ es that Lebron is remotely close to as good as Jordan was

That's like comparing Magic Johnson to Andre Miller

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why do you consistently create 'LeBron vs Jordan' topics? Hell, where do you rate LeBron all-time? :confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

LOL I don't think anyone really believ es that Lebron is remotely close to as good as Jordan was

That's like comparing Magic Johnson to Andre Miller


:roll:
:roll:

[3ball]

Why do you consistently create 'LeBron vs Jordan' topics? Hell, where do you rate LeBron all-time? :confusedshrug:
top 20, maybe top 25

that's how big a misconception i think it is

[Megabox!]

Why do you consistently create 'LeBron vs Jordan' topics? Hell, where do you rate LeBron all-time? :confusedshrug:
He obviously rates him pretty damn high since he's constantly comparing him to MJ

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

top 20, maybe top 25

that's how big a misconception i think it is
:whatever:

Post your top 20-25 bruh

[Trollsmasher]

pace

nobody played defense back then... LeBron would've averaged 34/11/9 on 65% TS easily

[kshutts1]

First, I would love to hear your top 25, 3ball.

Second, you've said on here before that you don't watch games, but rather watch stats... and that's evident in your first "thread idea". There is so much more to a player's effect on the outcome of a game than just the stats.

Third, who cares about comparing numbers against teams that won the title? That's not some equality measuring stick.

Lebron has been to the finals FIVE STRAIGHT TIMES. Just let that sink in. He's amazing. Is he Jordan? No. Is he on Jordan's level? I don't think so, but he's close. Why can't we just appreciate greatness?

[inclinerator]

don't make me ban you again

[Dr Hawk]

pace

nobody played defense back then... LeBron would've averaged 34/11/9 on 65% TS easily

Spacing incoming

[Wade's Rings]

pace

nobody played defense back then... LeBron would've averaged 34/11/9 on 65% TS easily

The 80s & 90s Bulls played at a pace equivalent to Today's League.

[3ball]

:whatever:

Post your top 20-25 bruh
There are many scenarios where a championship team or near-championship team are not really that talented, but they have the perfect mix of players for optimal chemistry - think of the 90's Utah Jazz or 1998 Pacers, or the 2000's Spurs for a more contemporary example.. These teams aren't overloaded with talent - but they've found an optimal, yet delicate chemistry.

So if you replace their best player (Malone, Duncan) with a guy like Lebron, that delicate chemistry is ruined - the team falls into the Lebron-ball glass ceiling, where they're no longer able to employ the optimal strategy that made them elite - and the talent wasn't there to be elite otherwise, so Lebron is stuck with "not enough help", as always.

For example, if Lebron replaced Karl Malone on those Jazz teams, the Jazz wouldn't have been nearly as good.. Those teams relied on Malone being the most HIGHLY-ASSISTED player in the league (as all frontcourt players normally are) - if you replace him with Lebron, who plays like a point guard and is therefore highly UNassisted, the chemistry that made the team so great is gone..

Again, the team would fall into the Lebron-ball glass ceiling, where they're no longer able to employ the optimal strategy that made them elite - and the talent wasn't there to be elite otherwise, so Lebron is stuck with "not enough help", as always.

Here are the guys that are definitely ahead of Lebron imo... But there are plenty more than the guys I'm about to list where it's very close and could go either way (like the aforementioned Malone)... They're better in say, 50% of the possible scenarios, and Lebron is better in the other 50% - but here are the guys that are definites, in order: MJ, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Larry, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, West, Oscar

[Heavincent]

Anyone want to do that work?...

No.

[kshutts1]

There are many scenarios where a championship team or near-championship team are not really that talented, but they have the perfect mix of players for optimal chemistry - think of the 90's Utah Jazz or 1998 Pacers, or the 2000's Spurs for a more contemporary example.. These teams aren't overloaded with talent - but they've found an optimal, yet delicate chemistry.

So if you replace their best player (Malone, Duncan) with a guy like Lebron, that delicate chemistry is ruined - the team falls into the Lebron-ball glass ceiling, where they're no longer able to employ the optimal strategy that made them elite - and the talent wasn't there to be elite otherwise, so Lebron is stuck with "not enough help", as always.

but here are the guys that are definites, in order: MJ, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Larry, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, West, Oscar
To the bolded, you are 100% right, but the same could be said for nearly any player ever; it's not just Lebron. I know you said "a guy LIKE Lebron", but then you proceeded to just use Lebron-ball as an example. It's not a video game; there are egos and emotions and chemistry to take into account. It's one of the most over-looked and misunderstood aspects of sports.

As for the list of guys definitely ahead of Lebron... I think a few of them are very arguable, but it's a legit list so far. Can't wait to see the rest.

[pastis]

1) Why did MJ's 33/8/8 on 54% get the Bulls only 47 wins in 1989, while Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49% got the Cavs 66 wins in 2010?

.

because Jordans stats were empty :yaohappy:


top 20, maybe top 25

that's how big a misconception i think it is

seriously, you have an 4x mvp and 2x fmvp, 2 ring, 11x allstar, 9x allnba first teams, 2 all-nba 2nd teams, 5x all def first team and scoring champion just 20-25?
you put bird way ahead of lebron? if you say lebron has a stacked team to win it all. so what about bird? bird played with all time greats over a long stretch in his career. bird had also awful playoffs performances and mchale has the case ove rbrid for a fmvp.
yea bird made the celtics after his draft to a contender. but so did lebron. lebron made the cavs from a lowskilled to a every year contender. as lebron left, cleveand became irrlevant until lebron came back. as lebron left miami, miami became a lottery team agian......

im def. not a lebron homer, but you just cant put this guy only rank 20. even as a hater...

[3ball]

Lebron has been to the finals FIVE STRAIGHT TIMES. Just let that sink in.



Okay... I'll let it sink in...

















Okay... done... It's sunk in..

And I realize it doesn't mean shit because Lebron's 2/6 record against the West in the Finals means he only would've made the Finals 2 times in his entire career if he played in the West!... Whereas MJ would've made the Finals 6/6 times in the West.

Btw, when I let it sink in, I also realized that when Lebron made those 5 straight Finals, he beat literally 1/3 of the number of 50-win teams as MJ or Kobe...

So wow - I'm super-glad I took your advice and let it sink in - between Lebron's 2/6 record against the West and his ESPN-verified weaker competition - now I know Lebron's playoff accomplishments are vastly overrated, as I knew all along.
.

[Dr Hawk]

Okay... I'll let it sink in...
Okay... done... It's sunk in..

And I realize it doesn't mean shit because losing in the Finals revealed an uncomfortable truth for Lebron - since Lebron is only 2/6 against the West in the Finals, it means he only would've made the Finals 2 times in his entire career if he played in the West!... Whereas MJ would've made the Finals 6/6 times in the West.

Btw, your advice to let it sink in also made me remember that when Lebron made those 5 straight Finals, he beat literally 1/3 of the number of 50-win teams as MJ or Kobe...

So wow - I'm super-glad I took your advice and let it sink in - between Lebron's 2/6 record against the West and his ESPN-verified weaker competition - now I know Lebron's playoff accomplishments are vastly overrated, as I knew all along.


:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[3ball]

To the bolded, you are 100% right, but the same could be said for nearly any player ever; it's not just Lebron.


Lebron's rigid style is less conducive than dominant bigs or guys like MJ, Kobe, Magic and Larry, whose offensive skill was far more diverse - those guys can fit on ANY team..

But not Lebron.. For example, if Lebron replaced Karl Malone on those Jazz teams, the Jazz wouldn't have been nearly as good.. Those teams relied on Malone being the most HIGHLY-ASSISTED player in the league (as all frontcourt players normally are) - if you replace him with Lebron, who plays like a point guard and is therefore highly UNassisted, the chemistry that made the team so great is gone..

Lebron would have worse chemistry alongside fellow point guard Stockton, than he had alongisde Wade.. Stockton needs to play alongside the OPPOSITE of a point guard - he needs a play-finisher like Karl for the Jazz to have optimal chemistry.

Again, the team would fall into the Lebron-ball glass ceiling, where they're no longer able to employ the optimal strategy that made them elite - and the talent wasn't there to be elite otherwise, so Lebron is stuck with "not enough help", as always.

Here are the guys that are definitely ahead of Lebron imo... But there are plenty more than the guys I'm about to list where it's very close and could go either way (like the aforementioned Malone)... They're better in say, 50% of the possible scenarios, and Lebron is better in the other 50% - but here are the guys that are definites, in order: MJ, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Larry, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, West, Oscar
.

[Rocketswin2013]

Shit post.

[jayfan]

Here are the guys that are definitely ahead of Lebron imo... But there are plenty more than the guys I'm about to list where it's very close and could go either way (like the aforementioned Malone)... They're better in say, 50% of the possible scenarios, and Lebron is better in the other 50% - but here are the guys that are definites, in order:
MJ,
Wilt,
Russell,
Kareem,
Magic,
Larry,
Shaq,
Kobe,
Hakeem,
Duncan,
West,
Oscar

Not a bad list. Might change the order of a couple.


.

[kshutts1]

Okay... I'll let it sink in... Okay... done... It's sunk in..

And I realize it doesn't mean shit because Lebron's 2/6 record against the West in the Finals means he only would've made the Finals 2 times in his entire career if he played in the West!... Whereas MJ would've made the Finals 6/6 times in the West.

Btw, when I let it sink in, I also realized that when Lebron made those 5 straight Finals, he beat literally 1/3 of the number of 50-win teams as MJ or Kobe...

So wow - I'm super-glad I took your advice and let it sink in - between Lebron's 2/6 record against the West and his ESPN-verified weaker competition - now I know Lebron's playoff accomplishments are vastly overrated, as I knew all along.
.
That logic. Awesome.

I guess some people would rather hate on greatness than appreciate it. I'm sorry for you. I know I'm enjoying the ride. I don't like Lebron, or the Cavs, or the Heat, but I'd be lying if I said that he was not compelling and incredible and awesome.

Some day, I'll be telling my kids and grandkids that I was able to watch Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan and KG play. Doesn't matter that only Jordan was on my favorite team. Doesn't matter that none of them are my favorite player. I'm just enjoying and appreciating the greatness.

[SpecialQue]

1) Why did MJ's 33/8/8 on 54% get the Bulls only 47 wins in 1989, while Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49% got the Cavs 66 wins in 2010?


2) Let's compare MJ's playoffs stats versus the team that won the championship (1986 Celtics, 1989 Pistons, 1990 Pistons), to Lebron's stats versus the champs (2007 Spurs, 2008 Celtics, 2011 Mavs, 2014 Spurs, 2015 Warriors).

Anyone want to do that work?... I can tell you right now based on guesstimate, that MJ's stats are about 36/7/6 on 50%, while Lebron's are about 26/9/7 on 40%.

If you want to start another Jordan dick-sucking thread, YOU do the work. This shit right here is hilariously lazy.

[3ball]

Not a bad list. Might change the order of a couple.


Cool, thanks.. Keep in mind, that list doesn't include guys that could go either way - guys that would be better fits on a team than Lebron 50% or more (while Lebron is a better fit the other 50%).

For example, if Lebron replaced Karl Malone on those Jazz teams, the Jazz wouldn't have been nearly as good.. Lebron would have worse chemistry alongside fellow point guard Stockton, than he had alongisde Wade.. Stockton needs to play alongside the OPPOSITE of a point guard - he needs a play-finisher like Karl for the Jazz to have optimal chemistry.

Those teams relied on Malone being one of the most HIGHLY-ASSISTED players in the league (as all frontcourt players normally are) - but if you replace him with Lebron, who plays like a point guard and is therefore highly UNassisted, the chemistry between stockton/malone that made the team so great is gone..

Again, the team would fall into the Lebron-ball glass ceiling, where they're no longer able to employ the optimal strategy that made them elite - and the talent wasn't there to be elite otherwise, so Lebron is stuck with "not enough help", as always.
.

[aj1987]

Not a bad list. Might change the order of a couple.


.
West and Oscar above LeBron? :oldlol:

[Megabox!]

Okay... I'll let it sink in...

















Okay... done... It's sunk in..

And I realize it doesn't mean shit because Lebron's 2/6 record against the West in the Finals means he only would've made the Finals 2 times in his entire career if he played in the West!... Whereas MJ would've made the Finals 6/6 times in the West.
:roll: This is the dumbest f*cking logic I've ever seen. You've finally outdone yourself 3ball

[Megabox!]

Not a bad list. Might change the order of a couple.


.
He has Oscar and West above LBJ...... :facepalm LBJ is slightly ahead of Hakeem too IMO not Duncan tho

[superteamtheory]

To the bolded, you are 100% right, but the same could be said for nearly any player ever; it's not just Lebron. I know you said "a guy LIKE Lebron", but then you proceeded to just use Lebron-ball as an example. It's not a video game; there are egos and emotions and chemistry to take into account. It's one of the most over-looked and misunderstood aspects of sports.

kshutts,

what's your thoughts on the early Bron Cavs rosters in terms of their identity/chemistry as a team? I know they were defensively really good (#1 in league some years) and had some good players but how do you think it all fit together as a vision? particularly in 2009 and 2010?

was it something more than Bron and spare parts awkwardly plugged in / slapped together b/c Cavs management wasn't sure what else to do at that time (unable to draw meaningful free agents) and were randomly trying to just acquire washed up talent hoping Bron would recycle it into a masterpiece? or was there actually a lot of rhyme and reason and balance to the team structure? like, for example, Warriors in 2015 defensively elite, known for great / high octane shooting and small ball .. what were the 2009 & 2010 Cavs known for?

follow up question: would you say the 2009 Magic roster wasn't deeper than the Cavs but was a more functional roster -- they had a specific gameplan, ball into Howard, Howard kicks out to ballswingers/shooters and on defence it's a team effort with 3x DPOY Howard patrolling the paint strongly even if (because of rules) he's not camped in it..

one more question: Bron averaged 38.5,8,8,1&1 in the 09 conference finals... is the problem that Bron needed to average, like, 45 a game? is the problem that Bron as a not top 20 player simply wasn't doing enough by averaging nearly 40 a game and nearly a triple double with active defensive contributions and hitting a game winner along the way? when they lose by 1 point in game 1 which keeps there from being a game 7 in Cleveland... is it because LeBron's 8 assist, 49 point game on .667 shooting needed to be 50 on like .700 shooting? or would you say this was what human beings with a soul call a "heartbreaker"?
... or is it because his 3 blocks and 2 steals and only 2 turnovers that game needed to be a little sharper... like 6 blocks and 4 steals to go with the nearly 50 points and 8 assists and he needed to have no turnovers? ... do you think the problem in this series was that LeBron needed to work more in the offseason on his ability to fly?

bonus question with no right answer: you have to score a bucket. ... would you rather go up against a (old) Bill Walton (or Robert Parish) camped in the paint after you beat Danny Ainge ... or would you rather have to beat Mickael Pietrus and then go up against (prime) Dwight Howard ... but he's not camped in the paint so it should be easy!

:banghead: :hammerhead: :roll:

[kshutts1]

kshutts,

what's your thoughts on the early Bron Cavs rosters in terms of their identity/chemistry as a team? I know they were defensively really good (#1 in league some years) and had some good players but how do you think it all fit together as a vision? particularly in 2009 and 2010?

was it something more than Bron and spare parts awkwardly plugged in / slapped together b/c Cavs management wasn't sure what else to do at that time and were trying to just acquire talent? or was there actually a lot of rhyme and reason and balance to the team structure? like, for example, Warriors in 2015 defensively elite, known for great / high octane shooting and small ball .. what were the 2009 & 2010 Cavs known for?

follow up question: would you say the 2009 Magic roster wasn't deeper than the Cavs but was a more functional roster -- they had a specific gameplan, ball into Howard, Howard kicks out to ballswingers/shooters and on defence it's a team effort with 3x DPOY Howard patrolling the paint strongly even if (because of rules) he's not camped in it..

one more question: Bron averaged 38.5,8,8,1&1 in the 09 conference finals... is the problem that Bron needed to average, like, 45 a game? is the problem that Bron as a not top 20 player simply wasn't doing enough by averaging nearly 40 a game and nearly a triple double with active defensive contributions and hitting a game winner along the way? when they lose by 1 point in game 1 which keeps there from being a game 7 in Cleveland... is it because LeBron's 8 assist, 49 point game on .667 shooting needed to be 50 on like .700 shooting? or would you say this was a heartbreaker? ... or is it because his 3 blocks and 2 steals and only 2 turnovers that game needed to be a little sharper... like 6 blocks and 4 steals to go with the nearly 50 points and 8 assists and he needed to have no turnovers? ... do you think the problem in this series was that LeBron needed to work more in the offseason in his ability to fly?

bonus question with no right answer: you have to score a bucket. ... would you rather go up against a Bill Walton (or Robert Parish) camped in the paint after you beat Danny Ainge ... or would you rather have to beat Mickael Pietrus and then go up against Dwight Howard ... but he's not camped in the paint so it should be easy!

:banghead: :hammerhead: :roll:
Edit: Just read your whole post, and I don't understand what you're getting at. The initial question seemed serious (hence my saving this spot for a later edit), but after that you were clearly trolling, but I don't know to what end.


I'll answer more seriously, though. I'm not sure if Cleveland built a quality roster on accident or on purpose, but they surrounded a jack-of-all trades superstar with great shooting and great hustle guys.

That's a winning mixture in my mind, with the one glaring weakness being that they offered no second star, someone that could take the pressure off Lebron and/or keep the team flowing when Lebron sat.

To that end, Orlando was better built in '09, because they relied on Howard a lot on D, but on offense he was a decoy in the sense that the gameplan was to get Howard double- or triple-teamed and then to pass it out to a dead-eye shooter. That game plan is easier on the star.

And for the bonus question, what version of Howard? If it's the Orlando version, then I'd much rather NOT go against him. He had the athleticism and ability to get in to the paint in time.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lol, LeBron went from top 25 to top 13 in a matter of minutes

[Smoke117]

top 20, maybe top 25

that's how big a misconception i think it is


I'm curious...if Lebron is top 20, top 25...where is Dwyane Wade on your list? Flash is my favorite player currently, but as I'm not a delusional stan I know he's not higher all time than Lebron...so where is Wade on your list?

[kshutts1]

Lol, LeBron went from top 25 to top 13 in a matter of minutes
Yeah... I'm waiting for the rest of his list.

There are not many other players that can be put ahead of Lebron without my laughing. I already disagree with his list, but that's obviously the point... it's about differing opinions and discussions.

But I can't think of 20-25 players that legitimately have a case over Lebron, and I know the history of the game relatively well. Those that he has mentioned are not crazy. A case can be made for all of them, and a handful of others. But not a dozen more.

[jayfan]

He has Oscar and West above LBJ...... :facepalm LBJ is slightly ahead of Hakeem too IMO not Duncan tho

I'd put Hakeem above Duncan. Both above Lebron.



.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah... I'm waiting for the rest of his list.

There are not many other players that can be put ahead of Lebron without my laughing. I already disagree with his list, but that's obviously the point... it's about differing opinions and discussions.

But I can't think of 20-25 players that legitimately have a case over Lebron, and I know the history of the game relatively well. Those that he has mentioned are not crazy. A case can be made for all of them, and a handful of others. But not a dozen more.

Even Oscar and West is a joke, neither has a legit argument over him. LeBron is at the absolute worst top 11 imo, there's no logical argument to have him lower than that

[kshutts1]

Even Oscar and West is a joke, neither has a legit argument over him. LeBron is at the absolute worst top 11 imo, there's no logical argument to have him lower than that
I won't argue West, but I rank Oscar more highly than Lebron, too. He was voted player of the century, after all. The same century in which Jordan played. Just saying.

This is taken from Oscar's wiki page (emphases mine)...
"Robertson was enshrined in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame on April 28, 1980. He received the "Player of the Century" award by the National Association of Basketball Coaches in 2000 and was ranked third on SLAM Magazine's Top 75 NBA Players in 2003, behind fellow NBA legends Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain. Furthermore, in 2006, ESPN named Robertson the second greatest point guard of all time, praising him as the best post-up guard of all time and placing him only behind Los Angeles Lakers legend Magic Johnson.[23]"

[Kvnzhangyay]

Even Oscar and West is a joke, neither has a legit argument over him. LeBron is at the absolute worst top 11 imo, there's no logical argument to have him lower than that

This. Even then, 3ball only named, what, 10-15 players? Who else is he gonna put over him, Durant? :roll:

[superteamtheory]

Edit: Just read your whole post, and I don't understand what you're getting at. The initial question seemed serious (hence my saving this spot for a later edit), but after that you were clearly trolling, but I don't know to what end.


I'll answer more seriously, though. I'm not sure if Cleveland built a quality roster on accident or on purpose, but they surrounded a jack-of-all trades superstar with great shooting and great hustle guys.

That's a winning mixture in my mind, with the one glaring weakness being that they offered no second star, someone that could take the pressure off Lebron and/or keep the team flowing when Lebron sat.

To that end, Orlando was better built in '09, because they relied on Howard a lot on D, but on offense he was a decoy in the sense that the gameplan was to get Howard double- or triple-teamed and then to pass it out to a dead-eye shooter. That game plan is easier on the star.

And for the bonus question, what version of Howard? If it's the Orlando version, then I'd much rather NOT go against him. He had the athleticism and ability to get in to the paint in time.

Okay, I'll stop messing around... and sorry man, I didn't mean to bring you in on a joke you're not in on yet...

You choose NOT Howard (and I do mean the Orlando version, sorry), as would I. ... Because the paint-camping rules don't always matter, it's more about specific matchups ... 3Ball would argue the 90's are always superior any circumstance, any defenders.. It seems OBVIOUS to me that Howard and a lot of other DPOY type NBA players (like prime Tyson Chandler) can get to the paint in time... It also seems obvious to me that being guarded by Andre Iguodala is worse than being guarded by Danny Ainge.. and yet 3Ball will use examples where Jordan is guarded by Ainge compared to LBJ guarded by an Iggy who isn't incomparable to Bron in terms of athleticism.. (He's also fond of this one play in which Gordon Hayward shut down Bron in an early season 2015 game when Cavs were still trying to figure things out. I mean, putting aside that Hayward's athleticism is still superior to Ainge, he's cherry picking that one play from a game that's meaningless in the bigger picture.)

Okay, next stupid argument I've had with 3Ball... I tried to tell 3Ball that Orlando was better built than the 09 Cavs and he interpreted all this as "making excuses"... :confusedshrug: So... oh... kayee... then... so if we play that game, what should Bron have done better in that series is I guess the question ... As I look it over, I can't possibly ask him to do more without being a sadist... He did just about everything but score the 1 extra point needed in game 1. (A heartbreaker plain and simple that set the series up for tragedy from the start..) ... It wasn't on him. The excuse is real: The Cavs roster wasn't quite good enough, the Magic roster was excelling -- they were the ones with the actual shooters, notably reliable Lewis & a career year Turkoglu... Cavs didn't even really have a bench.

You also say the Cavs had no real gameplan, it was just a "jack of all trades" player making things happen... In other words, a 1 man roster with spare parts... and I guess we disagree there, you say that's a winning formula, I say it's not.

I say Bron was just lifting this "team" to success, not much different than what Jordan is doing at his respective age with his "team"..

[Heatles201]

Why do mods allow the same thread to be recreated every single day just with a different title?

it always ends up in 3ball praising how great MJ is and how overrated LeBron is smfh agenda threads become annoying after a while

[3ball]

:roll: This is the dumbest f*cking logic I've ever seen. You've finally outdone yourself 3ball
There is no "logic".. I'm just stating historical fact - in 2007, 2011, 2014, and 2015, Lebron couldn't beat the best team in the West..

That's the best basis possible to conclude that Lebron would not get out of the West in those years, if his team was IN the West.

[Young X]

You can't talk about Lebron being a "loser" or not playing "winning basketball" then put Oscar and West above him, especially not Oscar.

We clown Bron for going 2-6 in the finals all the time, but West went 1-9 and Oscar went 10+ years without getting to the finals. Oscar's only ring came when he teamed up with Kareem, the same thing we look down on Lebron for.

West and Oscar also have 1 MVP and FMVP combined to Bron's 2 and 4.

People are only this critical of Lebron because they've watched his entire career unfold while not knowing the ins and outs of past players's careers. Y'all would be shitting on the same guys you praise today if you seen the down parts of their careers.

[mehyaM24]

There is no "logic".. I'm just stating historical fact - in 2007, 2011, 2014, and 2015, Lebron couldn't beat the best team in the West..

That's the best basis possible to conclude that Lebron would not get out of the West in those years, if his team was IN the West.
:oldlol:

[3ball]

kshutts,

what's your thoughts on the early Bron Cavs rosters in terms of their identity/chemistry as a team?


To understand complete evolution of Cavs' identity, first here's their history:

2006 was the first playoffs for the all-star tandem of Lebron and Zydrunas since they teamed up in 2004, at a time when Zydrunas had made the all-star team twice in three years (17/9 and 2.1 blk).. The tandem destroyed Gilbert Arenas' 42-40 Wizards and their #22 defense, but fell to the Pistons in the next round.

In 2007, the Cavs added the NBA steals leader and 1st Team All-NBA defender.. However, this addition didn't help the Cavs nearly as much as Detroit losing two-time DPOY and RAPM league leader Ben Wallace, the heart and soul of Detroit.. The Pistons only won 53 games without him in 2007, but that was still good enough for the 1 seed, while the 50-win Cavs had the 2 seed - going into the ECF, there was no clear favorite.. Maybe that's why Lebron only needed 25 ppg on 44% to beat the Pistons, a stark contrast to the mammoth efforts needed by previous stars to make the Finals.

Unfortunately, after their Finals run in 2007, the Cavs never again reached the Finals during Lebron's first tenure, despite adding a slew of players to find the right combination (mostly seasoned veterans): Mo Williams (16/4/5), Antawn Jamison (16/8), Shaq (12/7), Delonte West (10/4), Varejao (9/8), Hickson (7/6), and more.

This was above-average supporting talent - certainly nowhere near the worst.. The worst would be if the 2nd and 3rd options were just second-year players, and only contributed 14/6 and 12/9, whereas the Cavs had 2 veterans (one of them an all-star) producing 16/5 and 16/8..

Yet Lebron was unable to even lead this above-average cast TO the Finals, let alone win it.
.

[3ball]

what's your thoughts on the early Bron Cavs rosters in terms of their identity/chemistry as a team?


History shows that the Cavs' growth peaked early and then gradually declined.. This unfavorable trend was because Lebron's game can't fit into an advanced strategical approach that allows role players to consistently be engaged in making decisions and plays (like the Spurs, Mavs, Warriors, and MJ's Bulls).

When role players are consistently engaged in making decisions (not just finishing plays), the team improves it's ability to execute at a high level over time.

However, when Lebron scores, he does it himself while dominating the ball, as opposed to playing off-ball and facilitating a higher team assist capacity.. The Cavs' attack was basically a Lebron drive and kick or screen-roll - in the playoffs, defenses invariably got into a steady rhythm stuffing this predictable, simple attack.





But their offense was the area where they were
was it something more than Bron and spare parts awkwardly plugged in / slapped together


Not at all - again, they were a drive-and-kick team with a lot of shooters..

The team was 39% from three-point range, which was #2 in the league.. Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Daniel Gibson, and Antawn Jamison all made more than 1 per game.

The ball-dominant, drive-and-kick style is fine in the regular season, but it gets shut down in the playoffs - ask Chris Paul or Nash.. Lebron was just a bigger version and at SF instead, with half the assists and everyone playing out of position.

Those Cavs teams were deep with shooters and strong interior players - other than Lebron, they had all-star Mo Williams (16/4/5), Antawn Jamison (16/8), Shaq (12/7), Delonte West (10/4), Varejao (9/8), Hickson (7/6), Zydrunas (8/5) and more.





or was there actually a lot of rhyme and reason and balance to the team structure? like, for example, defensively elite, or known for great / high octane shooting and small ball ..

what were the 2009 & 2010 Cavs known for?


They surrounded Lebron with a lot of shooters and were a drive and kick, screen-roll team.. Every play..

However, these types of teams simple teams can't compete at an elite level in the playoffs - this is actually common knowledge - infact, it was Lebron's unexpected failures of losing with the favored Cavs (#1 seed in 2009 and 2010 with 60+ wins) that were a big factor bringing the fallacy of ball-domination to light.





would you say the 2009 Magic roster wasn't deeper than the Cavs but was a more functional roster -- they had a specific gameplan, ball into Howard, Howard kicks out to ballswingers/shooters


Yes - the Magic weren't as deep as the Cavs, but they had developed a superior attack around their star than Cleveland had.

Otoh, Lebron's rigid style isn't capable of fitting into an advanced strategical approach that allows role players to be consistently engaged in making decisions and plays (like the Spurs, Mavs, Warriors, and MJ's Bulls)..

When role players are consistently engaged in making decisions (not just finishing plays), the team improves it's ability to execute at a high level over time.





one more question: Bron averaged 38.5,8,8,1&1 in the 09 conference finals... is the problem that Bron needed to average, like, 45 a game?


It's not about how non-goat Lebron's stats were in the best statistical series of his 11-year career..

It's about the capacity his teammates have alongside him - that's what determines the TEAM'S capacity..

Unfortunately, Lebron's rigid style isn't capable of fitting into an advanced strategical approach that allows role players to be consistently engaged in making decisions and plays (like the Spurs, Mavs, Warriors, and MJ's Bulls)..

When role players are consistently engaged in making decisions (not just finishing plays), the team improves it's ability to execute at a high level over time.






http://i.imgur.com/yjM3Sgo.gif


bonus question with no right answer: you have to score a bucket. ... would you rather go up against a (old) Bill Walton (or perennial all-star Robert Parish) camped in the paint after you beat Danny Ainge ...

or would you rather have to beat Mickael Pietrus and then go up against (prime) Dwight Howard ... but he's not camped in the paint so it should be easy!



It wasn't just Bill Walton in the paint, or just the center - everybody could camp in the paint - and they did because their man was always closer to the rim and never out at the 3-point line (2 three-point attempts per game in 1985)..

Also, why only choose Dwight Howard?... Why not Patrick Ewing, Shaquille O'Neal, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo, or Hakeem?.. All of whom were posterized multiple times apiece by MJ and dominated.. Let me know if you want GIFs of the posters.
.

[knicksman]

Bran is a pippen type of player trying to be a no. 1 option. But at the end he got exposed

[knicksman]

You can't talk about Lebron being a "loser" or not playing "winning basketball" then put Oscar and West above him, especially not Oscar.

We clown Bron for going 2-6 in the finals all the time, but West went 1-9 and Oscar went 10+ years without getting to the finals. Oscar's only ring came when he teamed up with Kareem, the same thing we look down on Lebron for.

West and Oscar also have 1 MVP and FMVP combined to Bron's 2 and 4.

People are only this critical of Lebron because they've watched his entire career unfold while not knowing the ins and outs of past players's careers. Y'all would be shitting on the same guys you praise today if you seen the down parts of their careers.

Not a surprise they all have identical stats. Players who wouldnt forego stats for chemistry. And wilt is the bigman version of them

[Jacks3]

You can't talk about Lebron being a "loser" or not playing "winning basketball" then put Oscar and West above him, especially not Oscar.

We clown Bron for going 2-6 in the finals all the time, but West went 1-9 and Oscar went 10+ years without getting to the finals. Oscar's only ring came when he teamed up with Kareem, the same thing we look down on Lebron for.

West and Oscar also have 1 MVP and FMVP combined to Bron's 2 and 4.

People are only this critical of Lebron because they've watched his entire career unfold while not knowing the ins and outs of past players's careers. Y'all would be shitting on the same guys you praise today if you seen the down parts of their careers.

This is so true. The superstars of the past have it so easy compared to the top guys today.

[red1]

If you actually read 3balls posts and ignore the gifs and stats you will realize that he actually doesn't have a clue. He legitimately attempted to convince me that jordan's cast in 91 was inferior to the cavs team lebron had in 2010. Absolutely ridiculous.

He is just a hardcore jordan fanboy who posts the same shit over and over in hopes that it will eventually stick.

[Rocketswin2013]

This is so true. The superstars of the past have it so easy compared to the top guys today.
Magic's atrocious western conference competition, and Bird losing 7 times with HCA would be talked about over and over.

[nzahir]

Lol, LeBron went from top 25 to top 13 in a matter of minutes
Itll be top 10 in a matter of an hour and then top 5 in a year or 2

[kshutts1]

but here are the guys that are definites, in order: MJ, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Larry, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, West, Oscar
.
Still waiting to hear the rest of the "20 or 25" players better than Lebron

[Living Being]

1) Why did MJ's 33/8/8 on 54% get the Bulls only 47 wins in 1989, while Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49% got the Cavs 66 wins in 2010?


2) Let's compare MJ's playoffs stats versus the team that won the championship (1986 Celtics, 1989 Pistons, 1990 Pistons), to Lebron's stats versus the champs (2007 Spurs, 2008 Celtics, 2011 Mavs, 2014 Spurs, 2015 Warriors).

Anyone want to do that work?... I can tell you right now based on guesstimate, that MJ's stats are about 36/7/6 on 50%, while Lebron's are about 26/9/7 on 40%.
Wait, did you just make two threads at the same time?

[Lebron23]

Jeff is owning this clown. Just Ban him.

[Living Being]

Still waiting to hear the rest of the "20 or 25" players better than Lebron
Jordan
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
MJ
Chamberlain
Shaq
J. West
Abdul Jabbar
Kobe
Larry
T. Duncan
Oscar
Magic
O'Neal
Bird
Bill Russell
Olajuwon
Duncan
Bryant
Robertson
West
The Dream

There's 23 right there.

[Megabox!]

Jordan
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
MJ
Chamberlain
Shaq
J. West
Abdul Jabbar
Kobe
Larry
T. Duncan
Oscar
Magic
O'Neal
Bird
Bill Russell
Olajuwon
Duncan
Bryant
Robertson
West
The Dream

There's 23 right there. :lol

[superteamtheory]

If you actually read 3balls posts and ignore the gifs and stats you will realize that he actually doesn't have a clue. He legitimately attempted to convince me that jordan's cast in 91 was inferior to the cavs team lebron had in 2010. Absolutely ridiculous.

He is just a hardcore jordan fanboy who posts the same shit over and over in hopes that it will eventually stick.

Yes and no..

He has a clue. His belief that Bron's offball reluctance is what sinks his team is an interesting theory... He just tends to overstate his case. ... But I'm beginning to think maybe in the spirit of enjoying life I'll just let it go and chalk it up to fan enthusiasm/delusion that we all have each in our own way...

Mr. 3Ball knows the game well and can make good observations which is why I bother with him in the first place... but, IMO, he buys in way too much to ideas about intellectual superiority and those effects on the game and it's how we end up with him believing Bron's "seasoned" (read: aging) misfits are superior to Jordan's budding fresh legged Pippen & Grant and company..

It's also how he mistakes the draw and kick as what sunk Chris Paul and Steve Nash too... Nash needed a center like Tyson Chandler and/or Robert Horry to not bodycheck him and/or David Stern to not suspend two of his key sidekicks, Chris Paul's just come up against tough teams for the most part, but why am I even..

To common sense thinking, Bron, for whatever reason, has never played with one of the league's top coaches (Spoelstra as a puppet for Pat Riley might have been the best so far but that's not saying much) and so he's stuck with a Mike Brown offence -- anybody watch what that did to a Big 3 Lakers in 2012 vs. the Thunder? And so if you don't have some offensive scheme, all you got is your D.. and the mechanics of your roster..

You look at the 09 Magic vs. Cavs, the Orlando design isn't vastly different really, a postplayer to set up threes instead of perimeter oriented player, but what makes their "developed superior attack" is their core guys work together a little bit better because the roles are defined a bit better (Alston for example knows I'm here to run offence or hit threes that's it, Lewis knows he's the prime shooter), they have no redundancies like Mo-Wil & D.West (same not-true-PG scoring player but one is a marginally better overglorified "all-star" version), they also have capable reliable players vs. an old man Ilgauskus who Howard walked all over and this inability to defend well despite their investment in defence means the pieces aren't fitting quite right.. Idunno, I just don't find this roster they assembled that year that impressive. Maybe if, instead of West, they've got a more reliable sniping SG (like Danny Green, who Cleveland's brilliant management crew cut from their roster, would become) then yeah, no excuses.. I don't mean to knock West too much but if they've got Mo Wil to replace the role he formerly played, then I think he's gotta be a trade chip -- tho they probably liked his defence that in the end wasn't enough to stop Pietrus/Lewis/Turkoglu who were big parts of 4 100+ games for Orlando, at least one too many..

..GM Chris Grant (now fired, not to be trusted buddy of Mike Brown), Mike Brown or Dan Gilbert.. these guys are not basketball geniuses and when you're trying to win a championship, it takes something more than "ahh, a few shooters and some D oughta do tha trick!" :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

There is no "logic"..
Best post of your life, you should consider retirement. No topping this shit.