Where do you guys typically rate Scottie Pippen as a player?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The trolls overrate/underrate him, but honestly, where does he rank in history? Are the Bulls just as successful without him? Is he a franchise caliber player or just a REALLY good #2 like Bean was in 2000? :confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

We'll never really know what Pippen could do as a franchise player, we didn't even get 2 seasons of that. I think he could be a solid franchise player, lead his team to the playoffs on an annual basis. Could he make/win the Finals? That'll always be a mystery

[LoneyROY7]

He's in my top 10.

I came to this conclusion using my new metric of greatness/accolades + c*ck size. And after a thorough analysis, there's very few ATG NBA'ers than can "match" up with 'ol Pip.

[kshutts1]

He's a top second fiddle, and those players are the most difficult for me to rate appropriately.

I have him in the 25-35 range. But I can see a case for higher or lower.

[Akrazotile]

We'll never really know what Pippen could do as a franchise player, we didn't even get 2 seasons of that. I think he could be a solid franchise player, lead his team to the playoffs on an annual basis. Could he make/win the Finals? That'll always be a mystery


If MJ is 1-9 in playoffs without Pippen, can MJ really be considered a franchise player?


Do we think Pippen would do much worse than 1-9? What we saw of him without MJ certainly doesnt suggest it.

[ShawkFactory]

I think he could have been a franchise caliber guy for sure. Maybe not for a dynasty but he'd compete every year and be recognized as a top 10 guy in the league at least.

Do I think he's one of the 30 or so best basketball players of all time? No not really. But I'd give him credit as a top 30 guy given his impact on 6 championship teams.

[kshutts1]

I think he could have been a franchise caliber guy for sure. Maybe not for a dynasty but he'd compete every year and be recognized as a top 10 guy in the league at least.
:biggums:
He was widely considered a top 5-10 player in the league anyway. Some even said he was the second best player, behind Jordan, a couple years.

I don't think he was ever the second best player in the league... but he was very clearly a top 10 player. If he had been the number one option on his team, and he played as well as he did in his lone full season without Jordan, then it's pretty easy to assume he'd be considered a top 5 player in the league, accounting for "leading scorer" biases.

[Heavincent]

Top 20.

[ClipperRevival]

One of the best 2nd fiddle players ever but didn't have the iso game to carry a team offensively as "the man". He had his chances in 1993-1994 and 1994-1995 and after 1997-1998 without MJ. He was a K. Leonard type player. Someone who will probably be never good enough to lead a team as "the man" but would thrive as 2nd fiddle playing next to another superstar.

Of course, one of the best defenders ever and one of the most well rounded players ever.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-17-2015/VNMnV0.gif


Here's what Shaq said to Pippen and the whole world on Twitter a couple days ago:


"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"

"Remember I WAS BATMAN YOU WAS ROBIN , I was PUFFY YOU WAS MASE"

"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to GIF above)


In reality, if the Bulls had won Game 7 of 1990 ECF against the Pistons, they would've beaten the Blazers in the Finals - they proved they were the better team because they took the Pistons 7, while the Blazers only took them 6.

But Pippen famously choked in Game 7 of ECF, with 2 points on 1-10 shooting.. Indeed, Pippen cost the Bulls their first championship in 1990 - they should've 4-peated from 1990-1993.. He later admitted (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367910) his Game 7 choke was due to the pressure.

This is nothing new - Pippen only averaged 15/8/3 on 34% in the 1996 Finals - that's the worst performance by a 2nd option EVER.. And his performance in the 1998 Finals was also bad - only 6 and 8 points in final two games for a 15 ppg on 41% series average.
.

[Trollsmasher]

somewhere around 24-25, interchangeably with Jordan

[kshutts1]

This is nothing new for Pippen - he only averaged 15/8/3 on 34% in the 1996 Finals - that's the worst performance by a 2nd option EVER..


Really? The worst one ever?
Just this year we had Iguodala and whoever was the second option for the Cavs.

[ClipperRevival]

We'll never really know what Pippen could do as a franchise player, we didn't even get 2 seasons of that. I think he could be a solid franchise player, lead his team to the playoffs on an annual basis. Could he make/win the Finals? That'll always be a mystery

Of course he was talented enough to lead a team to the playoffs every year but was he good enough to be "the man" on a championship winning team? I doubt it. The guy's talents simply blended much better as a 2nd fiddle. Someone who can play D and do the other things that impact the game and not have to worry about carrying the offensive load. He just didn't that type of iso game where he could consistently break down set defenders. A lot of his points came via transition and when the D wasn't set.

[3ball]

Really? The worst performance ever by a 2nd option?

(who) was the second option for the Cavs (this year?)


Mosgov averaged 14/8 on 55% with 2 blocks per game in 2015 Finals.

That is far superior to Pippen's 15/8 on 34%.
.

[ClipperRevival]

He's a top second fiddle, and those players are the most difficult for me to rate appropriately.

I have him in the 25-35 range. But I can see a case for higher or lower.

There are levels to greatness. At the top of the heap is "the man" that led his team to multiple championships. Then you have the 2nd tier guys like Pippen who won but as 2nd fiddle.

[Smoke117]

One of the best 2nd fiddle players ever but didn't have the iso game to carry a team offensively as "the man". He had his chances in 1993-1994 and 1994-1995 and after 1997-1998 without MJ. He was a K. Leonard type player. Someone who will probably be never good enough to lead a team as "the man" but would thrive as 2nd fiddle playing next to another superstar.

Of course, one of the best defenders ever and one of the most well rounded players ever.

Why do people bring this up like it means anything? By the time he left Chicago he was 33 with a back that would bother him the rest of his career and two knees that were starting to become bothersome. (and by 2001 be a continuous problem) He also led the league in total minutes played in the 90s...something people seem to forget when it comes to his career post Chicago. He had a lot of wear and tear on his body regardless of the back.

[ShawkFactory]

:biggums:
He was widely considered a top 5-10 player in the league anyway. Some even said he was the second best player, behind Jordan, a couple years.

I don't think he was ever the second best player in the league... but he was very clearly a top 10 player. If he had been the number one option on his team, and he played as well as he did in his lone full season without Jordan, then it's pretty easy to assume he'd be considered a top 5 player in the league, accounting for "leading scorer" biases.
Yea I was just being conservative. Top 5 or so is most likely where he'd be.

I'm thinking of 2012 or so, because right now it's a little bit of a transitional period (Kind of like the mid 90s btw). You had of LBJ, KD, Kobe, Dwight, CP3, Dirk, Wade etc. at the top. At that time who do you think he'd be considered better than?

[3ball]

Really? Pippen's 15/8 on 35% in 1996 Finals was the worst performance ever by a 2nd option?

who was the second option for the Cavs in the 2015 NBA Finals?





Mosgov averaged 14/8 on 55% with 2 blocks per game in 2015 Finals.

That is far superior to Pippen's 15/8 on 34%.


Kshutts, where you at on this ^^^^^^^^

Mosgov averaged 2 blocks per game and 14/8 on 55%.. That's much better than Pippen's 15/8 on 34%.

[TheMan]

If MJ is 1-9 in playoffs without Pippen, can MJ really be considered a franchise player?


Do we think Pippen would do much worse than 1-9? What we saw of him without MJ certainly doesnt suggest it.
This whole 1-9 crap is just a bunch garbage spewed by the dumbass Bran stan base, it holds no water.

In the 1988 playoffs, the year MJ was able to win his first playoffs series, these were his stats and Pippen's stats...

MJ 36 ppg on 53% FG with 5 asts and 7 rbs while Pippen contributed 10 ppg on 46% with 2 asts and 5 rbs...in fact, no other Bulls player scored more than 10 ppg.

I'm not saying Pippen wasn't important to the Bulls success, of course he was, but the Bulls started winning when MJ finally had decent players around him. This is something the idiots here like mehyaM24 would like you to ignore. They overrate Pip for obvious reasons...

[ClipperRevival]

Why do people bring this up like it means anything? By the time he left Chicago he was 33 with a back that would bother him the rest of his career and two knees that were starting to become bothersome. (and by 2001 be a continuous problem) He also led the league in total minutes played in the 90s...something people seem to forget when it comes to his career post Chicago. He had a lot of wear and tear on his body regardless of the back.

MJ was more productive at the age of 39 and 40 than Pip was from 34 on. Pip just didn't have the iso game to lead a team as "the man". It's plain as night and day.

Meanwhile, MJ was by far and away still the best player in the world at the age of 33, 34 and 35. This fact always gets overlooked and it is historically impressive, especially for a wing player.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I think he's top 25 pretty easily.

His blazer days at such an old age was impressive, dude was the best player on that 2000 team which almost made the finals

[kshutts1]

Kshutts, where you at on this ^^^^^^^^

Mosgov averaged 2 blocks per game and 14/8 on 55%.. That's much better than Pippen's 15/8 on 34%.
I was just waiting on your full list of 20-25 players better than Lebron.

[3ball]

somewhere around 24-25, interchangeably with Jordan


Nice.

In reality, if the Bulls had won Game 7 of 1990 ECF against the Pistons, they would've beaten the Blazers in the Finals - they proved they were the better team because they took the Pistons 7, while the Blazers only took them 6.

But Pippen famously choked in Game 7 of ECF, with 2 points on 1-10 shooting.. Indeed, Pippen cost the Bulls their first championship in 1990 - they should've 4-peated from 1990-1993.. He later admitted (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367910) his Game 7 choke was due to the pressure.

This is nothing new for Pippen - he only averaged 15/8/3 on 34% in the 1996 Finals - that's the worst performance by a 2nd option EVER..

He also famously refused to enter the game in Game 3 of 1994 ECSF, where Kukoc had to play the MJ-role and save the day so the Bulls didn't go down 3-0.. Then of course, in the 1998 Finals, Pippen disappeared in the final 2 games, with 8 and 6 points.. This was the final time he let MJ carry the team across the finish line (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdPQ3QxDZ1s).

[ShawkFactory]

Kshutts, where you at on this ^^^^^^^^

Mosgov averaged 2 blocks per game and 14/8 on 55%.. That's much better than Pippen's 15/8 on 34%.
It was 16/8 with 5 assists, 2.3 steals and 1.3 blocks. His defense was the best on the team and he was the primary playmaker.

Stop lying to yourself.

[imdaman99]

Wasn't there an outcry over Pippen making the top 50 all time greats when it was first introduced? I have a hard time believing he wouldn't be on it, considering he had 6 rings but that was before the current crop of guys like Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, KG were either barely in the league or not yet drafted.

Is he clear cut in the top 50 now? I really don't know. He took himself out of a playoff game at the end 'to stick it to his coach'.

[PJR]

His blazer days at such an old age was impressive, dude was the best player on that 2000 team which almost made the finals

No he wasn't. Rasheed Wallace was the best player on the Blazers team. Easily.

[Rocketswin2013]

I don't rank past the top 15. I wouldn't put him above Wade, Nash, etc, but he was the best defensive player and point guard on 6 championship teams. Incredibly impressive if you look at it that way.

[3ball]

It was Pippen averaged 16/8/5, 2.3 steals and 1.3 blocks.


on 34%...

So his 16/8/5 is worse than Mosgov's 14/8/3 on 55%..

can you do the math on how much better 55% is than 34%?

Mosgov's 2015 Finals is EASILY better than Pippen's 1996.. It's not close

you're acting like you're content with 34%... that's the worst percentage I've ever seen anyone shoot - have you ever seen anyone shoot worse, and who was it?

[kshutts1]

Wasn't there an outcry over Pippen making the top 50 all time greats when it was first introduced? I have a hard time believing he wouldn't be on it, considering he had 6 rings but that was before the current crop of guys like Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, KG were either barely in the league or not yet drafted.

Is he clear cut in the top 50 now? I really don't know. He took himself out of a playoff game at the end 'to stick it to his coach'.
Top 50 now? Uhh... I'll keep this to 5 names per line to make it easier to keep count. Only do the people that Pippen has zero case over.

Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan
Russell, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe
Oscar, West, Moses, Karl, KG
Barkley, Dirk, Mikan, Pettit, Baylor
Doc, Lebron, Wade...

I can't think of any other players that Pippen has NO case over. There are more that I personally rank ahead of Pippen, but there is more of a potential argument to be had.

And, as always, I may have forgotten some people.

[3ball]

Top 50 now? Uhh... I'll keep this to 5 names per line to make it easier to keep count. Only do the people that Pippen has zero case over.

Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan
Russell, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe
Oscar, West, Moses, Karl, KG
Barkley, Dirk, Mikan, Pettit, Baylor
Doc, Lebron, Wade...

I can't think of any other players that Pippen has NO case over. There are more that I personally rank ahead of Pippen, but there is more of a potential argument to be had.

And, as always, I may have forgotten some people.
Has any big name player had so many obviously horrible series?

1996 Finals - 34% FG... which is literally WOAT... and only 15 ppg

1998 Finals - 8 and 6 points in final 2 games.. 15 ppg on 41% overall

1990 ECF - 2 points on 1-10 shooting in Game 7, costing Bulls championship

1994 ECSF - sits out final possession while Kukoc plays MJ-role & hits GW to save Bulls from going down 3-0

[ShawkFactory]

on 34%...

So his 16/8/5 is worse than Mosgov's 14/8/3 on 55%..

can you do the math on how much better 55% is than 34%?

you're acting like you're content with 34%... that's the worst percentage I've ever seen anyone shoot - i've never seen ANYONE shoot that bad - have you?
Idc honestly, just poking holes in your "arguments". You round 15.7 points for Pippen down to 15. And now you seem to be rounding Mosgov's 1.5 BPG to 3? Pippen had 1.3. Mosgov had one more block in 6 games.

You're arguments can't be taken seriously if you're just a blatant liar.

And you also seem to be comparing the FG% of a perimeter player who took 99 shots in 6 games to a 7'2 big man who took 49 and was birdfeed by Lebron James as if it means something.

[kshutts1]

Has any player had so many obviously horrible series?

1996 Finals - 34% FG... which is literally WOAT... and only 15 ppg

1998 Finals - 8 and 6 points in final 2 games.. 15 ppg on 41% overall

1990 ECF - 2 points on 1-10 shooting in Game 7, costing Bulls championship

1994 ECSF - sits out final possession while Kukoc plays MJ-role and hits GW to save Bulls from going down 3-0
That depends on how you define "horrible". Since you're a box-score guy, then I can see where you're coming from. Box scores don't track defense, other than steals and blocks. They also don't track "setting up an offense" or "flow of a game".

I don't know enough stats to know if a star has ever had a worse statistical series. But I will say with confidence that there have been worse series considering more than just the stats.

[andgar923]

The trolls overrate/underrate him, but honestly, where does he rank in history? Are the Bulls just as successful without him? Is he a franchise caliber player or just a REALLY good #2 like Bean was in 2000? :confusedshrug:
With MJ as his mentor from day 1 or without?

Without MJ's tutelage we wouldn't know who he is.

[3ball]

Top 50 now? Uhh... I'll keep this to 5 names per line to make it easier to keep count. Only do the people that Pippen has zero case over.

Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan
Russell, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe
Oscar, West, Moses, Karl, KG
Barkley, Dirk, Mikan, Pettit, Baylor
Doc, Lebron, Wade...

I can't think of any other players that Pippen has NO case over. There are more that I personally rank ahead of Pippen, but there is more of a potential argument to be had.

And, as always, I may have forgotten some people.
Pippen was a Robin.. There are tons of Batmans ahead of him... He might be in the top 100.. These players are all ahead of Pippen easily:

McHale, Worthy, Parish, Bill Walton, Isiah, Dumars, Clyde, Dominique, Stockton, Havlicek, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Alonzo Mourning, Tracey McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Steve Nash, Bob Cousy.... Many, many, many more.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Pippen was a Robin.. There are tons of Batmans ahead of him... He might be in the top 100.. These players are all ahead of Pippen easily:

McHale, Worthy, Parish, Bill Walton, Isiah, Dumars, Clyde, Dominique, Stockton, Havlicek, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Alonzo Mourning, Tracey McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Steve Nash, Bob Cousy.... Many, many, many more.

:rolleyes: :facepalm :facepalm

[kshutts1]

Pippen was a Robin.. There are tons of Batmans ahead of him... He might be in the top 100.. These players are all ahead of Pippen easily:

McHale, Worthy, Parish, Bill Walton, Isiah, Dumars, Clyde, Dominique, Stockton, Havlicek, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Alonzo Mourning, Tracey McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Steve Nash, Bob Cousy.... Many, many, many more.

:wtf:

[ClipperRevival]

Pippen was a Robin.. There are tons of Batmans ahead of him... He might be in the top 100.. These players are all ahead of Pippen easily:

McHale, Worthy, Parish, Bill Walton, Isiah, Dumars, Clyde, Dominique, Stockton, Havlicek, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Alonzo Mourning, Tracey McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Steve Nash, Bob Cousy.... Many, many, many more.

Jesus Christ man. :facepalm Your agenda to boost MJ makes you lose objectivity.

[TheMarkMadsen]

No he wasn't. Rasheed Wallace was the best player on the Blazers team. Easily.

easily.. easily.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Pippen led the team in assist, rebounds and steals throughout the playofss..

Pippen had an argument

[Smoke117]

MJ was more productive at the age of 39 and 40 than Pip was from 34 on. Pip just didn't have the iso game to lead a team as "the man". It's plain as night and day.

Meanwhile, MJ was by far and away still the best player in the world at the age of 33, 34 and 35. This fact always gets overlooked and it is historically impressive, especially for a wing player.

That Jordan is better than Pippen has never been in question, but he was also a much healthier player in general. Besides the broken foot he was blessed with a mostly healthy career. Partly because of the way he played, (for better or worse always putting his body on the line) Pippen was almost always dealing with some nagging injury by most seasons end. Considering he also played the most minutes of any player in the league for the entire decade...it's not surprising that his body wasn't very cooperative anymore at 33.

When Jordan left, Pip was the best perimeter player in the league for those two seasons, so I don't see why he had anything to prove after leaving chicago all beat up...he already proved he could lead a team successfully. In particular that 1995 team had no business being over .500 when Jordan came back but they were because of how dominant Scottie was defensively that season.

[kshutts1]

With MJ as his mentor from day 1 or without?

Without MJ's tutelage we wouldn't know who he is.
I think this theory of "tutelage" is overblown at times.

Where was Jordan's tutelage of everyone but Pippen? Fact is, Pippen would have been a great, great player anyway.

Jordan may have helped him become better than he would have on his own, but Pippen would have still been great. And Pippen may have helped Jordan be better than Jordan would have been on his own, also.

[3ball]

Since you're a box-score guy


You think I need the boxscores?.. Every single game that I referenced, I watched LIVE on tv.

I only list the boxscores for you guys, since it's more credible than me saying "hey guys, I watched all the games back then... Take my word for it.. This is how it was"... You guys would never believe me then..

So I provide boxscore data in the instances where the stats are horrific enough that game flow doesn't matter - such as the boxscores showing Pippen was 1-10 with 2 points in Game 7 of ECF... Or that he had 8 and 6 points in the final 2 games of 1998 Finals.. Or that he shot 34% in 1996 Finals, which is worst of all time.. Or that he refused to enter the game on the final play of 1994 ECSF..

This is enough information to let ANYONE know that Pippen played like shit in these instances..





Stats also don't track "setting up an offense" or "flow of a game".


If you want a second-by-second game flow feel, as if you were actually there - here's Ernie Johnson describing Pippen's meltdown in the 1994 2nd Round, AS IT HAPPENED:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m23s


Here's Pippen HIMSELF saying he choked in 1990 ECSF and played poorly due to the "pressure":

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367910

From the horse's mouth... :confusedshrug:

[Smoke117]

With MJ as his mentor from day 1 or without?

Without MJ's tutelage we wouldn't know who he is.

Gotta love these arguments...Jordan made Pippen...it wasn't like he was drafted 5th overall...it wasn't like the Pistons GM BEFORE he was even drafted called him a future super star in the NBA...no, he was nothing till Jordan shaped him into a star out of shit.

[kshutts1]

You think I need the boxscores?.. Every single game that I referenced, I watched LIVE on tv.
Are you not the very same person that said you haven't watched any games since the 90s or something like that?

If I have you mistaken with someone else, I apologize.

But the rest of my point still stands.

Edit: Some poster, I thought it was you, started a thread that said they didn't watch basketball, and just used advanced analysis to make predictions. Then listed a ton of predictions that they had made that came to be true. So again, if that's not you, I do apologize for the mistake. And again, I still stand by the rest of my argument, in that Pippen's stats may not have been great, but his impact was, due to other factors.

[ShawkFactory]

You think I need the boxscores?.. Every single game that I referenced, I watched LIVE on tv.

I only list the boxscores for you guys, since it's more credible than me saying "hey guys, I watched all the games back then... Take my word for it.. This is how it was"... You guys would never believe me then..

So I provide boxscore data in the instances where the stats are horrific enough that game flow doesn't matter - such as the boxscores showing Pippen was 1-10 with 2 points in Game 7 of ECF... Or that he had 8 and 6 points in the final 2 games of 1998 Finals.. Or that he shot 34% in 1996 Finals, which is worst of all time.. Or that he refused to enter the game on the final play of 1994 ECSF..

This is enough information to let ANYONE know that Pippen played like shit in these instances..



If you want a second-by-second game flow feel, as if you were actually there - here's Ernie Johnson describing Pippen's meltdown in the 1994 2nd Round, AS IT HAPPENED:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=1m23s


Here's Pippen HIMSELF saying he choked in 1990 ECSF and played poorly due to the "pressure":

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367910

From the horse's mouth... :confusedshrug:
Leaving out 96 there. Hmmmmmmmmmm

[3ball]

.:facepalm

[3ball]

:rolleyes: :facepalm :facepalm


Here's the actual reality of what was going on at the time - because I was THERE at the time:

EVERYONE said Penny and Grant Hill were far better than Pippen.

Like, not a little bit.. Everyone at the time said Penny and Hill were FAR better.

Those guys had a real handle, with real moves and offensive games, while Pippen's game was known to be stick-figurish - he couldn't create his own shot that well like Penny and Grant.

I was IN CHICAGO at the time (well, Peoria, but that's still Bulls country and everyone was on the pulse of the team)... And this was the consensus - like, no debate - Grant and Penny destroy Pippen.

[Smoke117]

Why are people even arguing with 3ball here...he literally said Pippen wasn't even top 100...that should be cause enough to ignore him completely in this thread.

[SamuraiSWISH]

We'll never really know what Pippen could do as a franchise player, we didn't even get 2 seasons of that. I think he could be a solid franchise player, lead his team to the playoffs on an annual basis. Could he make/win the Finals? That'll always be a mystery
No. He couldn't. He just wasn't an elite half scorer of other all time greats. He wasn't clutch either. Any true Bulls fan knows this, and we also know how he was fragile mentally and quite selfish. See 1994 ECSF. Or how he let a stacked Blazers team snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. A natural beta supplemental piece. With that said he was Taylor made to be a sidekick. And I can only think of a few players who would've been a better chemistry, skill or production fit next to Jordan.

[kshutts1]

No. He couldn't. He just wasn't an elite half scorer of other all time greats. He wasn't clutch either. Any true Bulls fan knows this, and we also know how he was fragile mentally and quite selfish. See 1994 ECSF. Or how he let a stacked Blazers team snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. A natural beta supplemental piece. With that said he was Taylor made to be a sidekick. And I can only think of a few players who would've been a better chemistry, skill or production fit next to Jordan.
One doesn't have to be an elite half-court scorer to lead a team to the finals or a title.

I'll admit that it's more easy to attain that way, but it's not the only way.

[Lebron23]

Gotta love these arguments...Jordan made Pippen...it wasn't like he was drafted 5th overall...it wasn't like the Pistons GM BEFORE he was even drafted called him a future super star in the NBA...no, he was nothing till Jordan shaped him into a star out of shit.


This

Pippen was a very good player in College.

[3ball]

Why are people even arguing with 3ball here...he literally said Pippen wasn't even top 100..


A lot of people think this ^^^^... Isiah Thomas (one of MJ's enemies), thinks Pippen is garbage.. He's made this evident many times - and that means the ENTIRE PISTON TEAM thinks he's garbage:


Bill Laimbeer:

"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."


Here was Isiah and Dumars' reaction to the Bulls taking a 2-1 series lead on MJ's game winner over Rodman - they were up ALL NIGHT conspiring how to stop MJ:


Dumars: "Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".

Isiah: "Dumars and i were on the phone for HOURS, talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s




Chuck Daly:

It doesn't entail me playing you, necessarily.. It's our 5.... playing... you"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s

[kshutts1]

A lot of people think this ^^^^... Isiah Thomas (one of MJ's enemies), thinks Pippen is garbage.. He's made this evident many times - and that means the ENTIRE PISTON TEAM thinks he's garbage:


Bill Laimbeer:

"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."


Here was Isiah and Dumars' reaction to the Bulls taking a 2-1 series lead on MJ's game winner over Rodman - they were up ALL NIGHT conspiring how to stop MJ:


Dumars: "Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".

Isiah: "Dumars and i were on the phone for HOURS, talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s




Chuck Daly:

It doesn't entail me playing you, necessarily.. It's our 5.... playing... you"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s

Well, that settles it. Since Jordan was better than Pippen, Pippen is not top 100. Thanks! :cheers:

[3ball]

In another episode Isiah Thomas dissed Pippen by saying some players that won rings were

just riding in the car but never driving it.

( This was from "The 50 Greatest & Next 10" Episode)



^^^^^ This was the consensus about Pippen:


Shaquille O'Neal:

"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"

"Remember I WAS BATMAN YOU WAS ROBIN , I was PUFFY YOU WAS MASE"

"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to 2000 WCF Game 7)



Bill Laimbeer:


"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s




Phil Jackson:


"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not TIME yet."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s

This was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything down the stretch of games.




Chuck Daly:


"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s




Horace Grant:


"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s



Dumars and Isiah:


"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and i were on the phone for HOURS, talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

This was Dumars' and Isiah's reaction to the Bulls taking 2-1 series lead in 1989 ECF after MJ hit GW over Rodman.





Reporter Pat O'Brien in 1989, confirming that Chuck Daly's championship defense was about stopping 1 guy via the "Jordan Rules":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=3m27s




Bill Laimbeer:


"The Jordan Rules were just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=1m22s




Scottie Pippen:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

This was Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary ADMITTING he the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7 - this cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals and the ring - (Bulls would've beaten Blazers - Blazers only took Pistons 6, while Bulls took then 7.
.

[ClipperRevival]

That Jordan is better than Pippen has never been in question, but he was also a much healthier player in general. Besides the broken foot he was blessed with a mostly healthy career. Partly because of the way he played, (for better or worse always putting his body on the line) Pippen was almost always dealing with some nagging injury by most seasons end. Considering he also played the most minutes of any player in the league for the entire decade...it's not surprising that his body wasn't very cooperative anymore at 33.

When Jordan left, Pip was the best perimeter player in the league for those two seasons, so I don't see why he had anything to prove after leaving chicago all beat up...he already proved he could lead a team successfully. In particular that 1995 team had no business being over .500 when Jordan came back but they were because of how dominant Scottie was defensively that season.

I am not disputing his greatness. I would love a guy like that on my team. There is huge value in bball for a long, athletic, two-way wing player and always will be. Bu, what I am saying is that he was not good enough to be "the man" on a championship winning team. Was he good enough to lead a decent team to the playoffs? Yes.

[3ball]

Was he good enough to lead a decent team to the playoffs? Yes.
jfc... only after coming off a literal 3-peat..

but to you, I'm sure this situation is no different from any random team trying to make the playoffs.. :rolleyes:

can pippen build a lottery team into a playoff team like a true cornerstone player is expected to?.. We don't know for sure, in the same way we don't know for sure if OJ killed those two people... Feel me?

[mehyaM24]

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/05/scottie-pippen-im-the-greatest-chicago-bull-of-all-time-video/

its funny though - some claim pippen was being facetious in his claim, but if you knew anything about pippen (look at his twitter exchange with shaq), or at least what was leaked out during the bulls' reign, you would know there's a lot of truth behind that statement. just think about this for a second: prior to drafting pippen, the bulls had NEVER won a championship AND were also 1-9 in the playoffs with jordan as their captain.

the very season pippen was drafted, chicago break that drought and win their first playoff series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M

^^^^ in a do-or-die game, pippen delivered the goods - closing out the cavs in epic fashion with his rebounding, assists, steals, blocks (defense) and points. basically his usual self.

the bulls would later go-on to win 6 championships, all with pippen being the lead playmaker, defender, & more importantly, anointed TEAM captain by phil jackson. phil knew pippen's impact went beyond volume scoring, which is why he relied/put so much trust & responsibility onto him.

http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1996.html
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1997.html

^^^^ checkout pippen's defensive impact during the 2nd three peat. his OVERALL impact was greater than any chicago bull that season, and despite the injuries, which hindered his offense, a top 10 player still and all - the ultimate all-around player.

[Rocketswin2013]

I am not disputing his greatness. I would love a guy like that on my team. There is huge value in bball for a long, athletic, two-way wing player and always will be. Bu, what I am saying is that he was not good enough to be "the man" on a championship winning team. Was he good enough to lead a decent team to the playoffs? Yes.
There have been worse #1's on title teams than Scottie Pippen.

[K Xerxes]

Great player and the perfect complement to Jordan. Top 25 easily IMO, possibly top 20.

[G0ATbe]

Top 15. He would've been top 10 to the masses easily if he wasn't overshadowed by Jordans overratedness. He was a slightly better version of him at his best and it's a shame he was drafted by the bulls.

[TheMan]

Pippen was a Robin.. There are tons of Batmans ahead of him... He might be in the top 100.. These players are all ahead of Pippen easily:

McHale, Worthy, Parish, Bill Walton, Isiah, Dumars, Clyde, Dominique, Stockton, Havlicek, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Alonzo Mourning, Tracey McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Steve Nash, Bob Cousy.... Many, many, many more.
I disagree

[3ball]

McHale, Worthy, Parish, Bill Walton, Isiah, Dumars, Clyde, Dominique, Stockton, Havlicek, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Gary Payton, Walt Frazier, Alonzo Mourning, Tracey McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Steve Nash, Bob Cousy.... Many, many, many more.




I disagree


Let me know which guys you disagree with specifically..

I'm open to suggestions - the ones I'm probably wrong about and should remove from the list are Parish, Dumars, Frazier, Kevin Johnson...

What do you think about that?

[Smoke117]

Chuck Daly:


"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s

Are you really using Chuck Daly as an example? :oldlol: He was a HUGE Pippen fan you dolt:

[superteamtheory]

he can't possibly rank in the top 25...

but... I'd put him somewhere near bottom of top 40 (maybe even 40)... and in a longer span? he'll be out of the top 50 forever in a couple decades and eventually may lose a spot in the top 100... which is maybe what Isaiah and company are getting at, that when the dust settles he'll be a guy people have to read up on, not one whose legend precedes him..

but he was the perfect swingman wingman for Jordan (and could have been for others too) and is one of the best defenders ever ... and the 94 season coupled with his role on the 2000 Blazers show he could have success outside of Jordan, be a key guy on a playoff team without Jordan, not sure they prove he's the man tho ... he was a major talent, a star, but would have never won a ring or even made Finals without Jordan or some other greatest player or exceptionally deep roster to help him get there...

[triangleoffense]

top30-35 for sure.. he's a "tier 2" level player for me and in the same conversation as Havlichek, Dr. J, Baylor, Ewing, etc.. could have been the #1 for a bunch of different teams but decided to win 6 with the true GOAT... I think MJ himself said there's no way he wins 6 without him.

[Smoke117]

Charley Rosen- "an incredible defender and facilitator. With his length and athleticism, Pippen could excel at every position except center. Like a middle linebacker in the NFL, it was Pippen who called the defensive signals."

[B]Charley Rosen- "Indeed, there were times when Phil Jackson would berate a player for departing from the previously designed defensive alignment.[COLOR="Red"] Only one self defense was acceptable:

[hateraid]

Underrated by Jordan stans for sure. There is this failure to recognize how immensely important to the Bulls runs he was. Lead the same team to a 55 win season and almost lead them to a series win over one of the greatest Knicks team ever assembled.

[bizil]

GOAT wise, I think Pip can warrant being rated in the top 30-35. Among SF's I would say he's in the top 6-8 area. In the two way sense (offense and defense as a combo), Lebron, Hondo, and Pippen are the gold standard at the SF position. Pip totally redefined the SF position and point forward position at the same time! And is arguably the GOAT perimeter defender.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Pippen showed more takeover scoring ability, he would likely be a top 10-15 GOAT player. Dude has SIX RINGS!! More than Bron and Bird COMBINED!!

So why isn't Pippen rated as highly as those guys on a GOAT level. Or higher than Dr. J? It's because Doc, Bird, and Bron can dominate and carry a team scoring. What other reason could it be for? Pip held his own OR WAS BETTER at every other facet of basketball than those guys besides scoring.

[mehyaM24]

Charley Rosen- "an incredible defender and facilitator. With his length and athleticism, Pippen could excel at every position except center. Like a middle linebacker in the NFL, it was Pippen who called the defensive signals."

Charley Rosen- "Indeed, there were times when Phil Jackson would berate a player for departing from the previously designed defensive alignment. Only one self defense was acceptable: ‘Scottie told me to do it.’"

Bill Cartwright- "Former teammate and current Bulls coach Bill Cartwright flatly states that Pippen 'was as much a part of winning the championships as MJ. I don't think it would have gotten done without him.’"

Tex Winter- "Michael realized how easy it was to play with him and how he helped make his teammates better. It's often said Jordan needed Pippen and Pippen needed Jordan. I'm not sure Jordan didn't need Pippen more than Pippen needed Jordan."

Doug Collins: ‘Scottie and Michael were the two best perimeter defensive players ever. Scottie could shut down anyone and take away half the court.’”

cartwright and tex winter preaching what i've been saying for months - but ofc, jockers would rather live in a dream state where hero ball & iso scoring are the end all be all.

thanks for the quotes - never knew tex said that :cheers:

[3ball]

Are you really using Chuck Daly as an example? He was a HUGE Pippen fan you dolt:


Every player has said something nice about Pippen before, just like they would about any player.. That's not remarkable or noteworthy.

Otoh, Chuck Daly said his championship defense was about stopping 1 guy and devised the "Jordan Rules" to stop MJ - this is verified as fact by Pat O'Brien in 1989:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=3m27s


Bill Laimbeer:


"The Jordan Rules were just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=1m22s

[ShawkFactory]

Every player has said something nice about Pippen before, just like they would about any player.. That's not remarkable or noteworthy.

Otoh, Chuck Daly said his championship defense was about stopping 1 guy and devised the "Jordan Rules" to stop MJ - this is verified as fact by Pat O'Brien in 1989:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=3m27s


Bill Laimbeer:


"The Jordan Rules were just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=1m22s
That was in 1989, Pippen's second year in the league. Jesus Christ.

[Hey Yo]

Nice.

In reality, if the Bulls had won Game 7 of 1990 ECF against the Pistons, they would've beaten the Blazers in the Finals - they proved they were the better team because they took the Pistons 7, while the Blazers only took them 6.

But Pippen famously choked in Game 7 of ECF, with 2 points on 1-10 shooting.. Indeed, Pippen cost the Bulls their first championship in 1990 - they should've 4-peated from 1990-1993.. He later admitted (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367910) his Game 7 choke was due to the pressure.

This is nothing new for Pippen - he only averaged 15/8/3 on 34% in the 1996 Finals - that's the worst performance by a 2nd option EVER..

He also famously refused to enter the game in Game 3 of 1994 ECSF, where Kukoc had to play the MJ-role and save the day so the Bulls didn't go down 3-0.. Then of course, in the 1998 Finals, Pippen disappeared in the final 2 games, with 8 and 6 points.. This was the final time he let MJ carry the team across the finish line (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdPQ3QxDZ1s).
Your boy "all-star Ilgauskas" in the 2007 Finals avg. 8/10 with 1 block on 35% shooting.

you were saying about worst 2nd options?

[Smoke117]

Your boy "all-star Ilgauskas" in the 2007 Finals avg. 8/10 with 1 block on 35% shooting.

you were saying about worst 2nd options?

Pippen also led the 96 playoffs in drating and defensive win shares while playing with a ankle and knee sprain throughout the playoffs...but those are facts that are conveniently left off of 3balls tiresome diatribes.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I think he's top 25 pretty easily.

His blazer days at such an old age was impressive, dude was the best player on that 2000 team which almost made the finals

Haven't given my opinion yet, but I would lean towards a top 25 player myself. His offense (scoring) left a lot of room for improvement, but he was basically elite in every other aspect.

Too bad we couldn't see Pip in an 'alpha role' longer than a season (and a half). I also think people underrate him when talking about mental makeups. Pippen was by all intents and purposes an 'alpha' in the way he approached his teammates and held everyone accountable.

[3ball]

:lol:

[3ball]

Pippen was by all intents and purposes an 'alpha' in the way he approached his teammates and held everyone accountable.
wtf this is utter garbage

one of the biggest betas ever and this is the consensus.. folded so many times it takes a while to list them all.

mj raised him like a baby - this is well-documented.. alpha my ass.. good troll

[3ball]

That was in 1989, Pippen's second year in the league. Jesus Christ.


So why do you guys say MJ's supporting cast was stacked then?

2nd-year Pippen and his 14/6/3 was Jordan's SECOND OPTION in 1989.

Obviously, this is a garbage supporting cast, which is why the Bulls only won 47 games, even though MJ averaged 33/8/8 on 54%... Compare that to Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49% that garnered 66 wins in 2009 - that's how much better his supporting cast was and his competition weaker.

Btw, the cutoff to make the lottery was 42 games in 1989.. Obviously, the 47-win Bulls are lottery without MJ, which means he took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs, just like Lebron did this year.. But Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to MJ's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has 5-point scoring edge and 11-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 2 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

wtf this is utter garbage

one of the biggest betas ever and this is the consensus.. folded so many times it takes a while to list them all.

mj raised him like a baby - this is well-documented.. alpha my ass.. good troll

How is that "trolling" when his coaches and peers(teammates) echoed those same sentiments? :confusedshrug:

Your MJ fandom is unhealthy, bro.

[nba_55]

Top 15

[Hey Yo]

Pippen also led the 96 playoffs in drating and defensive win shares while playing with a ankle and knee sprain throughout the playoffs...but those are facts that are conveniently left off of 3balls tiresome diatribes.
Huh? 3ball not mention Pippen's defense? I'm sure it was just an honest mistake on his part..........for the 100th time.

[AceManIII]

Argubly the greatest team player ever...Top 25 at the very least

[bizil]

Let's say Pippen never won ANY RINGS, where would he rank historically? Guys like Barkley and Mailman are universally rated HIGHER than Pippen on GOAT list without ANY RINGS! If Pip's peak value was ANYWHERE CLOSE to a Lebron or Bird, that wouldn't be the case. The most PREMIUM asset in basketball is takeover scoring ability.

Once again Pippen has SIX RINGS!! Why isn't he regarded closer to the top 10-15 GOAT? Its because the perception of Pippen is a GREAT ALL AROUND PLAYER. BUT ONLY a very good scorer.

Guys like Bird, Bron, Barry, and Baylor were GREAT ALL AROUND PLAYERS AND DOMINANT SCORERS! That combo is gonna trump a guy like Pippen peak wise. GOAT wise, he gets hurt by that. BECAUSE peak value plays a significant part in the GOAT debate. The ONLY GUY with more rings in the top 10 GOAT is Bill Russell!! Think about that!! Pip has more rings than Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Magic, Wilt, Bird, and Bron.

[colts19]

OK. Serious question. If when Jordan quit on his team and Pippen lead the Bulls to 2 less regular season wins than the year before and a loss to the Knicks in the playoffs. Had they replaced Jordan with another Pippen instead of some D league player. What would have happened.

Maybe 60 plus wins and another championship. Probably 60 plus wins and another championship. You tell me.

[Mass Debator]

Probably a 93 at his peak on 2K

[Smoke117]

Probably a 93 at his peak on 2K

He was a 90 in the very first NBA2K that was released on Dreamcast...I still remember that.

[Hey Yo]

As usual.......3ball bails once he gets ruined.

[bizil]

MJ was more productive at the age of 39 and 40 than Pip was from 34 on. Pip just didn't have the iso game to lead a team as "the man". It's plain as night and day.

Meanwhile, MJ was by far and away still the best player in the world at the age of 33, 34 and 35. This fact always gets overlooked and it is historically impressive, especially for a wing player.

Well said! The kink in Pippen's armor was the fact that he wasn't an alpha dog scorer. People bitch and moan about that. BUT being an alpha dog-takeover scorer in the most premium asset in basketball. Guys do it differently, but it's the most premium asset to have.

Pip was a very good scorer. But Pippen's max scoring potential was like 23 points a night. HE PROVED THAT in the season without MJ. The guys like MJ, Kobe, Big O (he was a pass first PG to boot) Bird, Lebron, Barry, West, Baylor, etc. MAX SCORING POTENTIAL is AT LEAST TEN POINTS HIGHER than Pippen. And ALL OF THOSE GUYS had or have epic all around games as well.

Even pass first PG's like Magic, Isiah, Nash, Frazier, and Payton had more alpha dog presence than Pippen. I'm not even going to go into the new wave of PG's like a Curry, Westbrook, Irving, D Rose, etc.

[3ball]

How is that "trolling" when his coaches and peers(teammates) echoed those same sentiments?


Nice things are frequently said about all NBA players, all the time - pointing out some quotes about Pippen to prove he was a good player, only proves he wasn't - do I need to provide quotes to show you Bird, Magic, Kobe, Moses Malone, or anyone of that caliber is a good player??.. Of course not, and that would be ridiculous.

As for saying he's an alpha - that's horseshit that you made up, and it's opposite from the historical fact.

The historical facts are that Pippen was known for choking in the clutch - he has far more historical chokes than clutch moments.. that's a fact.. He has virtually no notable game-winners or clutch moments.. None.. And only 2 game-winners in his entire career.

All the facts say he's only notable for playing alongiside MJ - Pippen has said this before, just like Horace Grant said:


"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s

[DMV2]

Between #25-#30

[ClipperRevival]

Let's say Pippen never won ANY RINGS, where would he rank historically? Guys like Barkley and Mailman are universally rated HIGHER than Pippen on GOAT list without ANY RINGS! If Pip's peak value was ANYWHERE CLOSE to a Lebron or Bird, that wouldn't be the case. The most PREMIUM asset in basketball is takeover scoring ability.

Once again Pippen has SIX RINGS!! Why isn't he regarded closer to the top 10-15 GOAT? Its because the perception of Pippen is a GREAT ALL AROUND PLAYER. BUT ONLY a very good scorer.

Guys like Bird, Bron, Barry, and Baylor were GREAT ALL AROUND PLAYERS AND DOMINANT SCORERS! That combo is gonna trump a guy like Pippen peak wise. GOAT wise, he gets hurt by that. BECAUSE peak value plays a significant part in the GOAT debate. The ONLY GUY with more rings in the top 10 GOAT is Bill Russell!! Think about that!! Pip has more rings than Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Magic, Wilt, Bird, and Bron.

You answered your own question. Pip never had the iso skills to be "the man" and carry a team offensively. That is a trait that not many possess. Malone and Barkley were both "the man" on their teams.

[K Xerxes]

So why do you guys say MJ's supporting cast was stacked then?

2nd-year Pippen and his 14/6/3 was Jordan's SECOND OPTION in 1989.

Obviously, this is a garbage supporting cast, which is why the Bulls only won 47 games, even though MJ averaged 33/8/8 on 54%... Compare that to Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49% that garnered 66 wins in 2009 - that's how much better his supporting cast was and his competition weaker.

Btw, the cutoff to make the lottery was 42 games in 1989.. Obviously, the 47-win Bulls are lottery without MJ, which means he took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs, just like Lebron did this year.. But Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to MJ's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has 5-point scoring edge and 11-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 2 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

Why are you talking about LeBron in a thread about Pippen?

[aj1987]

Why are you talking about LeBron in a thread about Pippen?
3ball, dude. That's why.


Why hasn't 97_bulls posted in this thread yet? :wtf:

I would rank him anywhere between 20-25.

Top 5 GOAT SF?

[ClipperRevival]

Well said! The kink in Pippen's armor was the fact that he wasn't an alpha dog scorer. People bitch and moan about that. BUT being an alpha dog-takeover scorer in the most premium asset in basketball. Guys do it differently, but it's the most premium asset to have.

Pip was a very good scorer. But Pippen's max scoring potential was like 23 points a night. HE PROVED THAT in the season without MJ. The guys like MJ, Kobe, Big O (he was a pass first PG to boot) Bird, Lebron, Barry, West, Baylor, etc. MAX SCORING POTENTIAL is AT LEAST TEN POINTS HIGHER than Pippen. And ALL OF THOSE GUYS had or have epic all around games as well.

Even pass first PG's like Magic, Isiah, Nash, Frazier, and Payton had more alpha dog presence than Pippen. I'm not even going to go into the new wave of PG's like a Curry, Westbrook, Irving, D Rose, etc.

And that's why guys like MJ, Kobe, Wade, Bron, etc were so valuable because they not only played on both ends but had ability to carry the offensive load. You are right. The single, hardest thing to do in bball is to create your own shot against set defenders time and time again. And to take it further, continue to produce offensively while facing the doubles every night. People don't realize how hard it is to be "the man". There is so much burden as the focal point of the D every night.

[bizil]

And that's why guys like MJ, Kobe, Wade, Bron, etc were so valuable because they not only played on both ends but had ability to carry the offensive load. You are right. The single, hardest thing to do in bball is to create your own shot against set defenders time and time again. And to take it further, continue to produce offensively while facing the doubles every night. People don't realize how hard it is to be "the man". There is so much burden as the focal point of the D every night.

For sure! And physically, it can also be very taxing as well. People gotta realize that teams throw EVERY LOOK at the great scorers. They try guys of different heights, weights, etc. As u stated, they are gonna see the double teams as well. The fact that MJ, Kobe, Wade, and Bron were also great passers ALLOWED them to play chess on the defense.

People also need to realize that u have duos where u have TWO ALPHA DOGS under one roof. The Jordan-Pip combo wasn't that kind of setup AT ALL! And that's ok obviously because they won six rings.

MJ was such a beast that he DIDN'T need another alpha dog player on the team. BUT he needed teammates that could play at an All Star or in Pip's case an HOF kind of level.

U can be an HOFer WITHOUT being an alpha dog kind of guy. Pippen allowed MJ the luxury to NOT HAVE to be the main facilitator or lockdown defender on the Bulls. And he gave MJ a guy that could score 20-22 points a night. So I give Pip his props. BUT those that think he's a top 20 GOAT player or in the class of Bird, Bron, or the Doctor are sadly mistaken.

[colts19]

OK. Serious question. If when Jordan quit on his team and Pippen lead the Bulls to 2 less regular season wins than the year before and a loss to the Knicks in the playoffs. Had they replaced Jordan with another Pippen instead of some D league player. What would have happened.

Maybe 60 plus wins and another championship. Probably 60 plus wins and another championship. You tell me.

Ok, so no takers on my post. Let me add this. In the 90's Pippen for at least 5 or 6 years was at least top 10 and for a couple years top 5. I just get tired of people not giving Pippen the credit he deserve's. So while MJ may or may not be the GOAT. When you have another top 5 or 10 player in the league on your team it sure makes you look good.

[ShawkFactory]

So why do you guys say MJ's supporting cast was stacked then?

2nd-year Pippen and his 14/6/3 was Jordan's SECOND OPTION in 1989.

Obviously, this is a garbage supporting cast, which is why the Bulls only won 47 games, even though MJ averaged 33/8/8 on 54%... Compare that to Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49% that garnered 66 wins in 2009 - that's how much better his supporting cast was and his competition weaker.

Btw, the cutoff to make the lottery was 42 games in 1989.. Obviously, the 47-win Bulls are lottery without MJ, which means he took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs, just like Lebron did this year.. But Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to MJ's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has 5-point scoring edge and 11-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 2 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.
Are you kidding me? None of this has any relevance to what me or anyone else is saying. We're talking about Pippens impact and ranking not 89 MJ vs 09 Lebron

[ClipperRevival]

For sure! And physically, it can also be very taxing as well. People gotta realize that teams throw EVERY LOOK at the great scorers. They try guys of different heights, weights, etc. As u stated, they are gonna see the double teams as well. The fact that MJ, Kobe, Wade, and Bron were also great passers ALLOWED them to play chess on the defense.

People also need to realize that u have duos where u have TWO ALPHA DOGS under one roof. The Jordan-Pip combo wasn't that kind of setup AT ALL! And that's ok obviously because they won six rings.

MJ was such a beast that he DIDN'T need another alpha dog player on the team. BUT he needed teammates that could play at an All Star or in Pip's case an HOF kind of level.

U can be an HOFer WITHOUT being an alpha dog kind of guy. Pippen allowed MJ the luxury to NOT HAVE to be the main facilitator or lockdown defender on the Bulls. And he gave MJ a guy that could score 20-22 points a night. So I give Pip his props. BUT those that think he's a top 20 GOAT player or in the class of Bird, Bron, or the Doctor are sadly mistaken.

:applause:

[sdot_thadon]

He's gotten tougher to rank over the years as more players enter the league at one point i thought top 20-25, but I feel top 30-35 may be a bit more appropriate. He was at one point considered the 2nd best player in the league while playing on MJ's team. All of the quotes so far in this thread really illustrate his value. iirc Phil called scottie to help kobe learn the triangle early on. His leadership, intelligence and impact should always keep his name amongst some of the best. But 2nd tier players usually fall behind 1st tier ones, so he rubs elbows with the likes of hondo, clyde, mchale etc . arguably the best of that tier tho.

Bonus question: how many of these 2nd tier guys were considered leaders of their teams?

[SouBeachTalents]

He's gotten tougher to rank over the years as more players enter the league at one point i thought top 20-25, but I feel top 30-35 may be a bit more appropriate. He was at one point considered the 2nd best player in the league while playing on MJ's team. All of the quotes so far in this thread really illustrate his value. iirc Phil called scottie to help kobe learn the triangle early on. His leadership, intelligence and impact should always keep his name amongst some of the best. But 2nd tier players usually fall behind 1st tier ones, so he rubs elbows with the likes of hondo, clyde, mchale etc . arguably the best of that tier tho.

Bonus question: how many of these 2nd tier guys were considered leaders of their teams?

I'd hardly consider Hondo a 2nd tier player. He was arguably the best player on the '68, '69, and '74 Celtic championship teams

[PickernRoller]

Above Lebron in Top 15.

[SouBeachTalents]

Above Lebron in Top 15.

Rent free

[sdot_thadon]

I'd hardly consider Hondo a 2nd tier player. He was arguably the best player on the '68, '69, and '74 Celtic championship teams
I know that, it just seems like on an all time scale he isn't as valued as he could be. I won't claim to be any expert on his particular career but I've never seen him very high in any lists.

[iamgine]

Today he would be a Draymond Green impact level on defense and John Wall impact level on offense.

[PickernRoller]

Rent free

OP: Where do you guys typically rate Pippen?

Above Lebron in Top 15.
----------------------------------------

Y'all nikka's are too ****ing pathetic and sensitive that you'll come out of nowhere to post rent-free as some sort of slay.

How ****ing mad and "rent free" are you? :oldlol: :oldlol:

[bizil]

I'd hardly consider Hondo a 2nd tier player. He was arguably the best player on the '68, '69, and '74 Celtic championship teams

I agree! Hondo wasn't a second tier guy in his peak at all! At one time, Hondo was likely the GOAT SF BEFORE the Doc and Bird came around. Peak wise, I think Baylor and Barry were better. BUT GOAT wise, Hondo's rings gave him the edge on those two. Hondo was ACTUALLY a precursor to Pippen in many ways. Point forward ability, can play PG, SG, and SF on both sides, and epic defense. Floor game and athletic ability wise, Pippen took what Hondo did to the next level. BUT Hondo was the superior scorer and a guy who could carry the scoring load.

[3ball]

****ing lies itt

[SouBeachTalents]

****ing lies itt

Like Pippen not being top 100?

[mehyaM24]

Haven't given my opinion yet, but I would lean towards a top 25 player myself. His offense (scoring) left a lot of room for improvement, but he was basically elite in every other aspect.

Too bad we couldn't see Pip in an 'alpha role' longer than a season (and a half). I also think people underrate him when talking about mental makeups. Pippen was by all intents and purposes an 'alpha' in the way he approached his teammates and held everyone accountable.
repped. good post brah




Bonus question: how many of these 2nd tier guys were considered leaders of their teams?

this. this. this.

[3ball]

In another episode Isiah Thomas dissed Pippen by saying some players that won rings were

just riding in the car but never driving it.

( This was from "The 50 Greatest & Next 10" Episode)



^^^^^ This was the consensus about Pippen:


Shaquille O'Neal:

"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"

"Remember I WAS BATMAN YOU WAS ROBIN , I was PUFFY YOU WAS MASE"

"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to 2000 WCF Game 7)



Bill Laimbeer:


"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s




Phil Jackson:


"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not TIME yet."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s

This was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything down the stretch of games.




Chuck Daly:


"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s




Horace Grant:


"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s



Reporter Pat O'Brien confirms that Chuck Daly's championship defense was about stopping 1 guy via the "Jordan Rules":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=3m27s




Bill Laimbeer:


"The Jordan Rules were just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=1m22s




Scottie Pippen:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

This was Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary ADMITTING he the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7 - this cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals and the ring - (Bulls would've beaten Blazers - Blazers only took Pistons 6, while Bulls took then 7.




Dumars and Isiah:


"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and i were on the phone for HOURS, talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

This was Dumars' and Isiah's reaction to the Bulls taking 2-1 series lead in 1989 ECF after MJ hit GW over Rodman.

.

[ClipperRevival]

3ball. Seek help.

[3ball]

3ball. Seek help.
I was going to say the same thing about you... Posting as much as you do on ISH is bad for your health... You have thousands of posts and probably a few alts.

And your understanding of the game is shallow, but that's why you fit in so well on the many forums that you're a member of

Btw, my opinions about Pippen are shared by MANY.. It's the consensus actually - you guys are simply biased in your defense of him because you weren't there to actually see MJ play while his reign was going on..

Instead, you prefer to think that a player who would only make the Finals twice in their entire career if they were in the West, can **** with MJ.. it's a joke
.

[3ball]

Pippen allowed MJ the luxury to NOT HAVE to be the main facilitator or lockdown defender on the Bulls.


This is not only factually incorrect, but it's an ignorant attempt to rewrite history.

MJ guarded Magic Johnson for 14 of 20 quarters* in the 1991 NBA Finals.. This is not disputable... It's FACT.. So MJ led the defense.

Then he averaged 11.4 APG.... So he was the main facilitator... That means he was the main facilitator AND he guarded Magic, which means your statement above is factually incorrect.

MJ was the best defender, passer and scorer on the 1st three-peat Bulls - this is common knowledge fact.. But for those like you who weren't there to see - just compare MJ and Pippen's assists per game and assist %... And then stop lying about Pippen "facilitating" (a term you could not define if you had to - it's just some ambiguous bullshit that allows you to deflect the reality of MJ's goatness).


*Pippen guarded 6 of 20 quarters in 1991 Finals - specifically he guarded Magic for 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 2... the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3... the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Games 1 or 5... So that's 6 quarters out of 20 (30%)... MJ guarded Magic for the remaining 14 of 20 (70%):

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddik5aZ02uA
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMTY0xJSwRY
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzLssE0Vcm4
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFcMrcXfCcU
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9B9654H0Cc

[ClipperRevival]

I was going to say the same thing about you... Posting as much as you do on ISH is bad for your health... You have thousands of posts and probably a few alts.

And your understanding of the game is shallow, but that's why you fit in so well on the many forums that you're a member of

Btw, my opinions about Pippen are shared by MANY.. It's the consensus actually - you guys are simply biased in your defense of him because you weren't there to actually see MJ play while his reign was going on..

So you want to believe a guy that would only get out of the West twice in his entire career can **** with MJ.. it's a joke
.

Why the hell would I have an alt? This board isn't that important to me. Your need to defend MJ at all costs completely skews your objectivity. If you will take the time to actually read what I said in this thread, you will see that we both agree to some extent that Pippen was a 2nd tier great.

Like I said, seek help. You make MJ fans look bad. Your constant bashing of Lebron indicates some form of insecurity. MJ is the GOAT. His resume speaks for itself. Stop trying so hard.

[3ball]

you will see that we both agree to some extent that Pippen was a 2nd tier great.


No.. we don't agree.. I don't think he's a 2nd tier great like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Lebron, Isiah, or guys on that level

So no, you and I do NOT agree - I agree with all-time greats - guys like Isiah and other greats that view Pippen as vastly overrated - when I was a fan watching the Bulls and MJ, it was common knowledge that Pippen was shyte and MJ was doing everything..

And looking back - there are SO MANY instances where Pippen played like dog meat... See 1996 Finals - I know you want to say "b-b-but defense, rebounding, other stuff..."... But that's just avoiding the elephant in the room - 34% fg... that is all...

Except that wasn't NEARLY the only time Pippen came up short - there are so many CONSPICUOUS instances.. Again, idiots come on here post frieking quotes about how "so-and-so said Pippen was a fine player"...

Again, posting generic quotes only PROVES that Pippen is several tiers below - I would never need to post quotes about Stockton, or Malone, or Lebron, or Isiah... Everyone knows those guys were great 2nd tier players... But Pippen wasn't, so idiots post generic quotes to prove he was... Again, its a joke

[Round Mound]

Top 7 of The Top 10 All Time SF. Top 50 Player Of All Time

1-Bird
2-Lebron
3-Baylor
4-Erving
5-Havlicek
6-Barry
7-Pippen

[ClipperRevival]

No.. we don't agree.. I don't think he's a 2nd tier great like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Lebron, Isiah, or guys on that level

So no, you and I do NOT agree - I agree with all-time greats - guys like Isiah and other greats that view Pippen as vastly overrated - when I was a fan watching the Bulls and MJ, it was common knowledge that Pippen was shyte and MJ was doing everything..

And looking back - there are SO MANY instances where Pippen played like dog meat... See 1996 Finals - I know you want to say "b-b-but defense, rebounding, other stuff..."... But that's just avoiding the elephant in the room - 34% fg... that is all...

Except that wasn't NEARLY the only time Pippen came up short - there are so many CONSPICUOUS instances.. Again, idiots come on here post frieking quotes about how "so-and-so said Pippen was a fine player"...

Again, posting generic quotes only PROVES that Pippen is several tiers below - I would never need to post quotes about Stockton, or Malone, or Lebron, or Isiah... Everyone knows those guys were great 2nd tier players... But Pippen wasn't, so idiots post generic quotes to prove he was... Again, its a joke

There is tremendous value in a tall, long, athletic, two-way wing player in bball. Pippen was one of the best perimeter defenders ever. Also, one of the most well rounded players ever. He filled up the stat sheets. His only real flaw (and this is what drops him a tier), was his inability to take over a game offensively. That's what separates him from guys like Kobe, MJ, Wade, Bron, etc. Those guys could carry the offensive load AND give you an all around game.

Kwahi is a poor man's version of Pip today. A long and athletic, two-way wing who impacts the game in many facets. And like I said, there is tremendous value for a player like that.

I rank him anywhere from 25-35. I would have to sit down and do an actual list but he is an all time great despite his iso scoring abilities because he impacted the game in so many ways. He is a 2nd tier great because he was never "the man" and was 2nd fiddle when he won. I'll leave it at that.

[KungFuJoe]

He's Paul George at PG's best.

Biggest knock on Pippen is that he was never a reliable superstar level scorer. It's what keeps him on a tier lower than the best of the best.

[Kvnzhangyay]

No.. we don't agree.. I don't think he's a 2nd tier great like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Lebron, Isiah, or guys on that level

So no, you and I do NOT agree - I agree with all-time greats - guys like Isiah and other greats that view Pippen as vastly overrated - when I was a fan watching the Bulls and MJ, it was common knowledge that Pippen was shyte and MJ was doing everything..

And looking back - there are SO MANY instances where Pippen played like dog meat... See 1996 Finals - I know you want to say "b-b-but defense, rebounding, other stuff..."... But that's just avoiding the elephant in the room - 34% fg... that is all...

Except that wasn't NEARLY the only time Pippen came up short - there are so many CONSPICUOUS instances.. Again, idiots come on here post frieking quotes about how "so-and-so said Pippen was a fine player"...

Again, posting generic quotes only PROVES that Pippen is several tiers below - I would never need to post quotes about Stockton, or Malone, or Lebron, or Isiah... Everyone knows those guys were great 2nd tier players... But Pippen wasn't, so idiots post generic quotes to prove he was... Again, its a joke

I highly doubt you watched MJ, and even if you did, you were just a kid.

You claimed you watched MJ, and you ALSO claimed you used to play D1 Ball and played against Zach Randolph. Well, Zebo is 34, so HE himself was 10 years old when it was 1991. That means when you talk about MJ, if you are not making up stuff, you were just a kid when watching, so obviously you were easily influenced by highlights and don't watch the whole thing. I know when I was a kid all I did was watch highlights and care about flashy dunks and stuff.

[ShawkFactory]

I was going to say the same thing about you... Posting as much as you do on ISH is bad for your health... You have thousands of posts and probably a few alts.

And your understanding of the game is shallow, but that's why you fit in so well on the many forums that you're a member of

Btw, my opinions about Pippen are shared by MANY.. It's the consensus actually - you guys are simply biased in your defense of him because you weren't there to actually see MJ play while his reign was going on..

Instead, you prefer to think that a player who would only make the Finals twice in their entire career if they were in the West, can **** with MJ.. it's a joke
.
I'm pretty sure you spend more time than literally anyone on this board. Like the mods can't even **** with the amount of time and energy you spend here. And for what? Making outrageously biased arguments to prove something that people already know?

Plus...you're a fvcking liar lol. Why wouldn't anyone take what you have to say with a HUGE grain of salt? You're either THAT sad...or the most dedicated troll in history. Actually either way it's sad.

[bizil]

This is not only factually incorrect, but it's an ignorant attempt to rewrite history.

MJ guarded Magic Johnson for 14 of 20 quarters* in the 1991 NBA Finals.. This is not disputable... It's FACT.. So MJ led the defense.

Then he averaged 11.4 APG.... So he was the main facilitator... That means he was the main facilitator AND he guarded Magic, which means your statement above is factually incorrect.

MJ was the best defender, passer and scorer on the 1st three-peat Bulls - this is common knowledge fact.. But for those like you who weren't there to see - just compare MJ and Pippen's assists per game and assist %... And then stop lying about Pippen "facilitating" (a term you could not define if you had to - it's just some ambiguous bullshit that allows you to deflect the reality of MJ's goatness).


*Pippen guarded 6 of 20 quarters in 1991 Finals - specifically he guarded Magic for 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 2... the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3... the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Games 1 or 5... So that's 6 quarters out of 20 (30%)... MJ guarded Magic for the remaining 14 of 20 (70%):

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddik5aZ02uA
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMTY0xJSwRY
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzLssE0Vcm4
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFcMrcXfCcU
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9B9654H0Cc

You're a clown who has NO COMPREHENSION SKILLS!! In my earlier post, my point was Pippen was such a great all around player THAT HE GAVE MJ THE HELP HE NEEDED TO GET OVER THE HUMP!! We all know MJ is the GOAT! And could do ANYTHING on a basketball court. BUT ITS A TEAM GAME!!

The evolution of Pippen ALLOWED MJ to conserve energy on defense when it was needed. BECAUSE Pippen was arguably the best perimeter defender ever. Which IN TURN gave MJ more energy to dominate scoring even more. MJ DIDN'T have to always be the main facilitator because Pippen was a top five passer EVER at the SF position. MJ and Pippen could trade off duties passing and defense wise. They complemented each other as well as any perimeter tandem EVER!

Early in their careers, guys like MJ and Bron SPREAD THEMSELVES TOO THIN having to do everything for their teams. That SHIT DOESN'T work against machines like the Bad Boy Pistons or the San Antonio Spurs. U need guys like Pippen to step up and play at a Hall of Fame level to win rings.

Plain and simple, u can't touch me on this site! Take MJ's dick outta your mouth and learn the game!!

[3ball]

Pippen's only real flaw (and this is what drops him a tier), was his inability to take over a game offensively.


Generally, that's the biggest flaw a player can have.. Pippen was also not a leader, and he had a shaky hand in the clutch, while lacking other intangibles as well.





That's what separates Pippen from guys like Kobe, MJ, Wade, Bron, etc., and puts Pippen on the 2nd tier


What about Stockton, Malone, Isiah, Barkley, Clyde, Moses Malone and guys on that tier - these guys aren't on the MJ/Magic/Larry tier, but they are above Pippen..

That's why Pippen isn't 2nd tier - 2nd tier is Barkley, Isiah, KG, Dirk, Nash, Stockton, Moses, McHale, Wade - all these guys could take over a game offensively as well, and were ranked above Pippen, but still below Wilt/MJ/Magic/Larry/Russell
.

[SouBeachTalents]

Generally, that's the biggest flaw a player can have.. Pippen was also not a leader, and he had a shaky hand in the clutch, while lacking other intangibles as well.



What about Stockton, Malone, Isiah, Barkley, Clyde, Moses Malone and guys on that tier - these guys aren't on the MJ/Magic/Larry tier, but they are above Pippen..

That's why Pippen isn't 2nd tier - 2nd tier is Barkley, Isiah, KG, Dirk, Nash, Stockton, Moses, McHale, Wade - all these guys could take over a game offensively as well, and were ranked above Pippen, but still below Wilt/MJ/Magic/Larry/Russell
.

Why would McHale be ranked above Pippen?

[oarabbus]

Why would McHale be ranked above Pippen?


Honestly he's better tho. Only player to have 60% FG and 80% FT.

BTW he was a 26ppg scorer that season.

Only player ever to put up 25+ on >60%fg. 60% fg is MADNESS for a guy like Tyson Chandler or DeAndre... and McHale did it on 25ppg, ****ING 25ppg :biggums:

Mchale takes a fat shit on Pippen.

[Round Mound]

Honestly he's better tho. Only player to have 60% FG and 80% FT.

BTW he was a 26ppg scorer that season.

Only player ever to put up 25+ on >60%fg. 60% fg is MADNESS for a guy like Tyson Chandler or DeAndre... and McHale did it on 25ppg, ****ING 25ppg :biggums:

Mchale takes a fat shit on Pippen.

Charles Barkley did it also if you take away his 3-pointers made and missed he still shot over 60% on 25 PPG ...3 or close to 4 times.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233742&page=2

You Are Right Though McHale Is Severly Underrated Here in ISH and Better Than Pippen as a Focal Scorer, Post Player, FT Shooter and Shot Blocker .

[3ball]

Pippen's defense allowed MJ to conserve energy on defense


This argument makes no sense - Pippen wasn't out there guarding 2 guys at once.

MJ always had to guard his man, whether that as Drexler, Reggie Miller, Kevin Johnson, or Isiah.





Pippen was arguably the best perimeter defender ever.


So was MJ.

MJ was the best defender in the game (1988 DPOY) - based on his dpoy and most-ever 1st team all defense selections, he likely has the best case for greatest perimeter defender ever.





Pippen's defense gave MJ more energy to dominate scoring even more.


Again, bullshit - MJ led the league in scoring with 37 ppg while Pippen was in college - he didn't need extra energy from anyone.. MJ dominated scoring LESS when Pippen came aboard.

MJ also led the league in scoring in 1988, while also winning DPOY - meanwhile, Pippen was a 7.9 ppg rookie that didn't even start.





MJ didn't have to always be the main facilitator


MJ passed FAR more - his assist percentage in playoffs is 28.1 to Pippen's 21.2 - so MJ assisted on 33% more possessions.

There it is in black and white - a statistical FACT - MJ passed 33% more in the playoffs.. He had higher assist percentage in RS too (24.9 to 23.4).





MJ couldn't do everything himself - he need guys like Pippen to step up


Lebron had way more help - he had a 10-time all-star and 20/10 player as his 3rd option (Bosh)..

MJ had far less help, which is why his stats had to be much better:


Playoffs Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 34.7 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 6.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BLK, 25.4 FGA, 50.1 FG%, 29.6 PER
Lebron: 28.2 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BLK, 20.8 FGA, 47.3 FG%, 27.4 PER


Finals Thru Age 30:

Jordan: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.76 BPG, 52.6% FG, 40.7% 3 PT
Lebron: 26.4 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 6.9 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.54 BPG, 44.6 FG%, 31.9% 3 PT
.

[bizil]

Charles Barkley did it also if you take away his 3-pointers made and missed he still shot over 60% on 25 PPG ...3 or close to 4 times.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233742&page=2

You Are Right Though McHale Is Severly Underrated Here in ISH and Better Than Pippen as a Focal Scorer, Post Player, FT Shooter and Shot Blocker .


I agree! Peak wise, no doubt McHale is the superior player to Pippen. Great scoring, great defense, and the best low post PF of all time. Even over Duncan because of McHale's footwork and craftiness. Even from a GOAT perspective, McHale had a case as the GOAT PF (along with Petitt and Hayes) until Barkley and Malone built their resumes up.

I have NO DOUBT that McHale would have been putting up 28-30 points and 11-12 boards a night if he had to be the best player on the team. I mean shit he was averaging 26 points in a season WITH Bird on the squad.

Rebounds wise, he was splitting the pie with Bird and the Chief as well. No question he was a number two option that was REALLY an alpha dog quality scorer!

[Round Mound]

I agree! Peak wise, no doubt McHale is the superior player to Pippen. Great scoring, great defense, and the best low post PF of all time. Even over Duncan because of McHale's footwork and craftiness. Even from a GOAT perspective, McHale had a case as the GOAT PF (along with Petitt and Hayes) until Barkley and Malone built their resumes up.

I have NO DOUBT that McHale would have been putting up 28-30 points and 11-12 boards a night if he had to be the best player on the team. I mean shit he was averaging 26 points in a season WITH Bird on the squad.

Rebounds wise, he was splitting the pie with Bird and the Chief as well. No question he was a number two option that was REALLY an alpha dog quality scorer!

:applause: Well its no accident that Charles Barkley always mentions McHale as "The Best Player He Played Against".

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Pip has more rings than Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Magic, Wilt, Bird, and Bron.

Not for long.

[houston]

Pippen better than Mchale. Mchale so overhyped dude wasn't never a double digit rebounder. It alot of all-time great PF over him.

[kshutts1]

Anyone else see similarities in 3ball and Lazeruss? Has this been mentioned before and I'm just very out of the loop? They have a lot of good information, but neither can comprehend a counter argument. At all. Their response is to always cherry-pick stats from a previously-posted argument.

[ClipperRevival]

Generally, that's the biggest flaw a player can have.. Pippen was also not a leader, and he had a shaky hand in the clutch, while lacking other intangibles as well.



What about Stockton, Malone, Isiah, Barkley, Clyde, Moses Malone and guys on that tier - these guys aren't on the MJ/Magic/Larry tier, but they are above Pippen..

That's why Pippen isn't 2nd tier - 2nd tier is Barkley, Isiah, KG, Dirk, Nash, Stockton, Moses, McHale, Wade - all these guys could take over a game offensively as well, and were ranked above Pippen, but still below Wilt/MJ/Magic/Larry/Russell
.

I don't have a problem with putting Pippen in the 2nd tier when you consider the fact that he was clearly the 2nd fiddle on 6 championship winning teams, was one of the best perimeter defenders ever and one of the most well rounded players ever. Simply put, any team he played on, he would've impacted the game in so many ways and help you win.

I hate to keep repeating myself but there is tremendous value in bball for a tall, long, athletic wing player who can play both ways. That means he is impacting the game in so many facets. Pip fit that too a tee.

[ClipperRevival]

You're a clown who has NO COMPREHENSION SKILLS!! In my earlier post, my point was Pippen was such a great all around player THAT HE GAVE MJ THE HELP HE NEEDED TO GET OVER THE HUMP!! We all know MJ is the GOAT! And could do ANYTHING on a basketball court. BUT ITS A TEAM GAME!!

The evolution of Pippen ALLOWED MJ to conserve energy on defense when it was needed. BECAUSE Pippen was arguably the best perimeter defender ever. Which IN TURN gave MJ more energy to dominate scoring even more. MJ DIDN'T have to always be the main facilitator because Pippen was a top five passer EVER at the SF position. MJ and Pippen could trade off duties passing and defense wise. They complemented each other as well as any perimeter tandem EVER!

Early in their careers, guys like MJ and Bron SPREAD THEMSELVES TOO THIN having to do everything for their teams. That SHIT DOESN'T work against machines like the Bad Boy Pistons or the San Antonio Spurs. U need guys like Pippen to step up and play at a Hall of Fame level to win rings.

Plain and simple, u can't touch me on this site! Take MJ's dick outta your mouth and learn the game!!

Again. :applause:

[GimmeThat]

Rod Strickland
Kyle Korver
Glen Robinson
Scottie Pippen
Vlade Divac

Michael Carter William
Jeff Foster
Brandon Bass


this is not how I typically rate Scottie Pippen

Edit:
Rod Strickland
Doug Cristie
Scottie Pippen
Drew Gooden
Vlade Divac

Michael Carter William
Jeff Foster
Glen Davis

if that prior team was too or 'not' stacked enough for any HOF candidate coaches
this pretty much shows you just about when I started watching the NBA.

[SHAQisGOAT]

As far as SF's, all-time...

1. Bird
2. LeBron
3. Dr J
4. Hondo
5. Baylor
6. Barry
7. Pippen
...
then you got Worthy, Nique, Pierce, so on...

Pippen had a great peak too, top10 for SF's as well.
And he can be argued as the GOAT 2nd option.

On my all-time list I'd probably have him as top30/35, no less than 40...



Honestly he's better tho. Only player to have 60% FG and 80% FT.

BTW he was a 26ppg scorer that season.

Only player ever to put up 25+ on >60%fg. 60% fg is MADNESS for a guy like Tyson Chandler or DeAndre... and McHale did it on 25ppg, ****ING 25ppg :biggums:

Mchale takes a fat shit on Pippen.

:rolleyes: Great arguments... :rolleyes:

You can argue about peak, it's very close and I'd even go with McHale... But Pippen won more, had more longevity, proved himself more as the main-man, has more all-nba team selections (even 1st) and defensive, higher in MVP award shares...
Seriously, I can't see Kevin ranked above Pippen all-time... Peak probably so, but that even lasted very little...

And 3ball saying Scottie is ranked below the likes of Parish, Worthy, Stockton, Mourning, T-Mac, AD...... is dumb af, but we all know his agenda.
Shit, I'd most likely even take McGrady over Pip as my team's 1st option, at their best (not like many on that list though) but there's no way that Tracy is higher on the all-time list.

[superteamtheory]

:pimp:


Why would McHale be ranked above Pippen?

not sure about Stockton either, Stock is pretty comparable to Pippen in that.. both are guys who would be lead stars if they weren't sidekicks, but make better sidekicks.. guys that have all-round game and are supergreat in specific areas of game but not dominant enough to be in the top tiers..


Between #25-#30

someone in here is sane. :cheers:

and i even think 25-30 is generous

[Dragonyeuw]

You're a clown who has NO COMPREHENSION SKILLS!! In my earlier post, my point was Pippen was such a great all around player THAT HE GAVE MJ THE HELP HE NEEDED TO GET OVER THE HUMP!! We all know MJ is the GOAT! And could do ANYTHING on a basketball court. BUT ITS A TEAM GAME!!

The evolution of Pippen ALLOWED MJ to conserve energy on defense when it was needed. BECAUSE Pippen was arguably the best perimeter defender ever. Which IN TURN gave MJ more energy to dominate scoring even more. MJ DIDN'T have to always be the main facilitator because Pippen was a top five passer EVER at the SF position. MJ and Pippen could trade off duties passing and defense wise. They complemented each other as well as any perimeter tandem EVER!

Early in their careers, guys like MJ and Bron SPREAD THEMSELVES TOO THIN having to do everything for their teams. That SHIT DOESN'T work against machines like the Bad Boy Pistons or the San Antonio Spurs. U need guys like Pippen to step up and play at a Hall of Fame level to win rings.

Plain and simple, u can't touch me on this site! Take MJ's dick outta your mouth and learn the game!!

Agree there, Pippen's development, perimeter defense, and ability to initiate the triangle gave the Bulls the luxury of allowing MJ to play more off-ball and having the energy to consistently come through in the clutch. This was especially important in the 2nd 3peat with an older MJ. The best thing was, you could sit MJ down at the end of quarters, leave Pip in there to run the second unit until MJ came back in and the offense wouldn't go off the rails. It doesn't at all detract from MJ's greatness acknowledging the symbiotic MJ-Pip relationship.

[bizil]

Agree there, Pippen's development, perimeter defense, and ability to initiate the triangle gave the Bulls the luxury of allowing MJ to play more off-ball and having the energy to consistently come through in the clutch. This was especially important in the 2nd 3peat with an older MJ. The best thing was, you could sit MJ down at the end of quarters, leave Pip in there to run the second unit until MJ came back in and the offense wouldn't go off the rails. It doesn't at all detract from MJ's greatness acknowledging the symbiotic MJ-Pip relationship.

Well said! As great as MJ was, NOBODY is immune to injuries, fatigue, and being overmatched. We saw it with Bron in the Finals this past year. With Love and Irving out, there was NO WAY the Cavs could beat the Warriors. Was Bron the best player in the series, HELL YA!! But in the end, he still lost.

Until Pippen came of age, the Bulls were overmatched against the Pistons. The greatness of MJ could only keep them afloat for so long. Once Pip came of age, the Pistons didn't have an answer. Even though the Pistons still had more talent depth, Pippen and MJ were so EPIC that it superceded EVERY TEAM in the NBA.

[97 bulls]

I agree! Peak wise, no doubt McHale is the superior player to Pippen. Great scoring, great defense, and the best low post PF of all time. Even over Duncan because of McHale's footwork and craftiness. Even from a GOAT perspective, McHale had a case as the GOAT PF (along with Petitt and Hayes) until Barkley and Malone built their resumes up.

I have NO DOUBT that McHale would have been putting up 28-30 points and 11-12 boards a night if he had to be the best player on the team. I mean shit he was averaging 26 points in a season WITH Bird on the squad.

Rebounds wise, he was splitting the pie with Bird and the Chief as well. No question he was a number two option that was REALLY an alpha dog quality scorer!
Lol. Unbelievable. Aren't you the one that constantly criticizes Pippen for not winning a championship in 94 because he didn't score enough? Well Mchale was in the exact same situation and he didn't score more and his team with him as the leader was a total failure.

I swear poster like you literally have no filter. In that you dont even care to be a least ablittle consistent.

Theres so many holes in your post its pathetic

[bizil]

Lol. Unbelievable. Aren't you the one that constantly criticizes Pippen for not winning a championship in 94 because he didn't score enough? Well Mchale was in the exact same situation and he didn't score more and his team with him as the leader was a total failure.

I swear poster like you literally have no filter. In that you dont even care to be a least ablittle consistent.

Theres so many holes in your post its pathetic

GOAT wise, Pippen is the superior player. And GOAT list is the DEFINING LIST when evaluating players. So stop BITCHING!!

Peak wise, I prefer a dominant low post monster and great defender over what Pippen brought to the table. It's not A STRETCH AT ALL to take McHale over Pippen peak wise!! Barkley himself said McHale was the best PF he ever went up against. Stephen A Smith thinks McHale is a top 3 GOAT PF. So take Pip's dick out of your mouth and STOP BEING SO SENSITIVE!!

[GimmeThat]

any all time great passers may probably prefer a dominant low post scorer and rebounder given both are defensive 1st team.

Not a stretch at all?

Without generalizing that playing styles and injury prone/history are correlated. I wouldn't be surprised that players with dominant peak but career was ruined due to injury would side with Kevin McHale.

[3ball]

Pippen's ballhandling gave the Bulls the luxury of [B]allowing MJ to play more off-ball


False.. Pippen didn't 'allow' MJ to play off-ball - that's a gross misunderstanding of what happened.

MJ was already off-ball because he was an off-ball player.. He'd always been an off-ball player since HS, college, and throughout his NBA career..

His off-ball play allowed Pippen to handle the ball more often than he would alongside a ball-dominating, PG-style player, who would shut down the ballhandling part of Pippen's game.

Of course, MJ still had elite primary ballhandler capability that he frequently was required to use, but more than half of his offense had always come while playing off-ball.





Pippen's presence saved MJ energy so he could consistently come through in the clutch.


Pippen's presence alongside MJ was far less help than:

- Kareem/Worthy alongside Magic
- Shaq alongside Kobe (or vice versa)
- 10-time all-star Bosh as 3rd option, plus Wade alongside LBJ
- McHale/Parish/DJ alongside Bird
- Ginobili/Kawhi/Parker alongside Duncan

MJ had the least help by FAR.... Like, you couldn't put 11/8 player Horace Grant on the above list.. That would be laughable... :oldlol:





Pippen's development as a ballhandler and ability to initiate the triangle was like a point guard


This is a severe lack of knowledge about the varying degrees of ball-domination and ballhandling duties that exist.

Both MJ and Pippen had primary ballhandling duties, but BOTH players actually scored more than half their field goals playing off-ball.. Neither guy used point-guard levels of ball-domination and time of possession, like Lebron and Harden do in today's game (the stats show they are the only guys that dominate the ball as much as starting PG's).

MJ and Pippen didn't dominate the ball at the point guard levels of Lebron and Harden.. And between the two, MJ handled the ball more than Pippen - MJ had the ball more often because he scored more than anyone ever - more importantly, he was an actual guard, so he naturally had the ball more and it wasn't perceived as unusual when he handled the ball.

The offense ran through MJ - he has the highest usage in NBA history (shot attempts + turnovers) AND he assisted on 33% more plays than Pippen in the RS and playoffs (28.2 assist percentage to Pippen's 21.2).. By having far more shot attempts AND more assists, MJ ran the offense, as would be expected from the 11-time MVP in RS and Finals.. MJ running the team was obvious to everyone and was historical fact, for the next time you wonder (since you weren't there):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=20m23s





It doesn't at all detract from MJ's greatness acknowledging that Pippen was capable of running the 2nd unit or that MJ sat at the end of quarters


It's dumb though, because ALL coaches do this with their best player (rest at end of quarters), and all 2nd options occasionally run the second unit, just like 1st options do.

By acting like these standard practices are unique to MJ and important in his relationship with Pippen, is a foolish and transparent attempt to deflect MJ's goat status.
.

[ArbitraryWater]

There are plenty Pip versions better than 2000 Bean.

[3ball]

There are plenty Pip versions better than 2000 Bean.


Who cares.. both Kobe and Pip were 2nd options, just like Wade, Shaq, Lebron (2011), Kareem, Magic, and Duncan.

Only MJ was never a 2nd option.. Bird never was either, but he had another guy win FMVP once (cornbread)

[bizil]

Lol. Unbelievable. Aren't you the one that constantly criticizes Pippen for not winning a championship in 94 because he didn't score enough? Well Mchale was in the exact same situation and he didn't score more and his team with him as the leader was a total failure.

I swear poster like you literally have no filter. In that you dont even care to be a least ablittle consistent.

Theres so many holes in your post its pathetic

But STILL when comparing McHale to Pippen peak wise, I would rather have McHale. That was THE BASIS OF MY ARGUMENT!! GOAT wise, Pippen is the superior player! And when Bird missed most of the 1989 season, the Celtics best days were gone anyway.

McHale wasn't the same McHale he was three years ago. They say McHale never was really the same after he broke his foot. So instead of his game going to possibly another level, he didn't get better. And even regressed some. When Pippen took over in 94, Pippen was AT HIS PEAK!!

[Dragonyeuw]

False.. Pippen didn't 'allow' MJ to play off-ball - that's a gross misunderstanding of what happened.

MJ was already off-ball because he was an off-ball player.. He'd always been an off-ball player since HS, college, and throughout his NBA career..

His off-ball play allowed Pippen to handle the ball more often than he would alongside a ball-dominating, PG-style player, who would shut down the ballhandling part of Pippen's game.

Of course, MJ still had elite primary ballhandler capability that he frequently was required to use, but more than half of his offense had always come while playing off-ball.



Pippen's presence alongside MJ was far less help than:

- Kareem/Worthy alongside Magic
- Shaq alongside Kobe (or vice versa)
- 10-time all-star Bosh as 3rd option, plus Wade alongside LBJ
- McHale/Parish/DJ alongside Bird
- Ginobili/Kawhi/Parker alongside Duncan

MJ had the least help by FAR.... Like, you couldn't put 11/8 player Horace Grant on the above list.. That would be laughable... :oldlol:



This is a severe lack of knowledge about the varying degrees of ball-domination and ballhandling duties that exist.

Both MJ and Pippen had primary ballhandling duties, but BOTH players actually scored more than half their field goals playing off-ball.. Neither guy used point-guard levels of ball-domination and time of possession, like Lebron and Harden do in today's game (the stats show they are the only guys that dominate the ball as much as starting PG's).

MJ and Pippen didn't dominate the ball at the point guard levels of Lebron and Harden.. And between the two, MJ handled the ball more than Pippen - MJ had the ball more often because he scored more than anyone ever - more importantly, he was an actual guard, so he naturally had the ball more and it wasn't perceived as unusual when he handled the ball.

The offense ran through MJ - he has the highest usage in NBA history (shot attempts + turnovers) AND he assisted on 33% more plays than Pippen in the RS and playoffs (28.2 assist percentage to Pippen's 21.2).. By having far more shot attempts AND more assists, MJ ran the offense, as would be expected from the 11-time MVP in RS and Finals.. MJ running the team was obvious to everyone and was historical fact, for the next time you wonder (since you weren't there):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=20m23s



It's dumb though, because ALL coaches do this with their best player (rest at end of quarters), and all 2nd options occasionally run the second unit, just like 1st options do.

By acting like these standard practices are unique to MJ and important in his relationship with Pippen, is a foolish and transparent attempt to deflect MJ's goat status.
.

Here we go with the tedious over-glorification, like you're the only person who watched MJ or is qualified to make an opinion on him. MJ did a great deal more ballhandling prior to Pip's arrival. In fact, when he was asked to play the PG role in the 89 season, he averaged a triple double playing a very ball-dominant role, something I'm sure you've ranted over and over about during one of your pro-MJ slurp session.

Stop acting like MJ was a one-man team when they were winning titles. He wasn't no matter how many redundant posts and gifs you spam the board with. MJ's my favorite all-time player, so why the fcuk would I be trying to deflect his greatness? It doesn't take away from his greatness acknowledging teammates who were important contributors during the Bulls glory days. That doesn't mean that MJ wasn't the most important reason, or didn't carry the biggest burden, or that it lessons his case for GOAT. You thinking I'm sitting here with some agenda to diminish him is truly hilarious, and your obsession more than a little creepy.

[97 bulls]

But STILL when comparing McHale to Pippen peak wise, I would rather have McHale. That was THE BASIS OF MY ARGUMENT!!
No thats not the basis. Thats your opinion. And I obviously can't disagree with it. Your basis is WHY or how you've formed that opinion.



GOAT wise, Pippen is the superior player! And when Bird missed most of the 1989 season, the Celtics best days were gone anyway.
They won 42 games in an expansion year. With 8 of those wins comming against expansion teams. And they had a good replacement for Bird in Reggie Lewis. You gonna actually take the stance that they fell that hard?????



McHale wasn't the same McHale he was three years ago. They say McHale never was really the same after he broke his foot.
You know who says this???? Mchale apologists. Even if what you say is true, he didn't fall that far off. In fact, 89 was one of his best seasons.


So instead of his game going to possibly another level, he didn't get better. And even regressed some. When Pippen took over in 94, Pippen was AT HIS PEAK!!
So let's say Mchale was at his peak. How much better are the 89 Celtics???

[bizil]

No thats not the basis. Thats your opinion. And I obviously can't disagree with it. Your basis is WHY or how you've formed that opinion.



They won 42 games in an expansion year. With 8 of those wins comming against expansion teams. And they had a good replacement for Bird in Reggie Lewis. You gonna actually take the stance that they fell that hard?????



You know who says this???? Mchale apologists. Even if what you say is true, he didn't fall that far off. In fact, 89 was one of his best seasons.


So let's say Mchale was at his peak. How much better are the 89 Celtics???

I've HEARD McHale say he wasn't the same player after the foot injury. Before that it never entered my mind. So **** that apologists shit. When the Celtics needed McHale to take a bigger role to win a chip in 89, he wasn't able to elevate his game like he wanted to. THE MAIN REASON WAS THE FOOT! Sure he was still a great player. But he wasn't at his peak anymore. And physically, he couldn't dial it up to the level he was capable of ONCE Bird was hurt!

When I said I WOULD TAKE Mchale over Pippen in general, MY BASIS was his peak value. For my personal taste, I use peak value for my argument. For a historical standpoint, I use GOAT status. So you MISUNDERSTOOD ME!!

[bizil]

No thats not the basis. Thats your opinion. And I obviously can't disagree with it. Your basis is WHY or how you've formed that opinion.



They won 42 games in an expansion year. With 8 of those wins comming against expansion teams. And they had a good replacement for Bird in Reggie Lewis. You gonna actually take the stance that they fell that hard?????



You know who says this???? Mchale apologists. Even if what you say is true, he didn't fall that far off. In fact, 89 was one of his best seasons.


So let's say Mchale was at his peak. How much better are the 89 Celtics???

I think the Celtics time had passed anyway. It was time for Detroit and Chicago to do their thing.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen's presence alongside MJ was far less help than:

- 10-time all-star Bosh as 3rd option, plus Wade alongside LBJ

MJ had the least help by FAR.... Like, you couldn't put 11/8 player Horace Grant on the above list.. That would be laughable... :oldlol:

In the playoffs

'12 Wade: 23/5/4 on 46%
'91 Pippen: 22/9/6 50%

'12 Bosh: 14 & 8 on 49%
'91 Grant: 13 & 8 on 58%

'13 Wade: 16/5/5 on 46%
'92 Pippen: 20/9/7 on 47%

'13 Bosh: 12 & 7 on 46%
'92 Grant: 11/9/3 on 54%

[LAZERUSS]

In the playoffs

'12 Wade: 23/5/4 on 46%
'91 Pippen: 22/9/6 50%

'12 Bosh: 14 & 8 on 49%
'91 Grant: 13 & 8 on 58%

'13 Wade: 16/5/5 on 46%
'92 Pippen: 20/9/7 on 47%

'13 Bosh: 12 & 7 on 46%
'92 Grant: 11/9/3 on 54%

Let's add to this...

Wade in 2014-15 without Lebron? 28-34.
Bosh in 2014-15 without Lebron? 22-30.

Grant in 93-94 without MJ? 48-22.
Pippen in 93-94 without MJ? 51-21.

What is even more laughable, is that Grant and Pippen missed a combined 22 games in 93-94...and the Bulls still went 55-27 that season. Call it the "Pete Myers effect."

[97 bulls]

I've HEARD McHale say he wasn't the same player after the foot injury. Before that it never entered my mind. So **** that apologists shit.
So how are you quantifying how much effect that "injury" had on him? Certainly not statistics. He turned in one of the best seasons of his career. I mean here are his numbers

87
26/10/3 60%

89
23/8/3 55%

Hardly a huge drop. And please answer my question. How many more wins do the Celtics get with your "peak value wise" Mchale? 10? 15?


When the Celtics needed McHale to take a bigger role to win a chip in 89, he wasn't able to elevate his game like he wanted to. THE MAIN REASON WAS THE FOOT!
Lol. The Celtics didnt win in 89 for the same reason the Bulls didnt. THEY WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH!!!!!!&!

And using injuries is an excuse. A weak one at that. When an injury effects a player, they miss a lot of games, their stats suffer their career is cut short. None of.these things happened to Mchale. And please show us where he says the foot was the reason the Celtics won only 40 games in 89.


Sure he was still a great player. But he wasn't at his peak anymore. And physically, he couldn't dial it up to the level he was capable of ONCE Bird was hurt!
Ok but yoj excuse him but defame Pippen. Again its your opinion ti choose Mchale over Pip. But your reasons are inconsistent, hypocritical, and unrealistic. Again for emphasis. A players prime normally lasts from 26 to about 32. The early years of that tend to be more athletic based and the latter more based on experience. Neither is better than the other.


When I said I WOULD TAKE Mchale over Pippen in general, MY BASIS was his peak value. For my personal taste, I use peak value for my argument. For a historical standpoint, I use GOAT status. So you MISUNDERSTOOD ME!!
Even if you take "peak value". How is 26/10/2 on 60% shooting in an era that is widely acknowledged for offense (meaning it was easier to score) any better than 22/9/6 50% in an era known for defense. Meaning that it was harder to score. And this isnt even taking for account intangibles. Pippen ran the offense and anchored the defense. He was a better defender. Even though Mchale was good in his own right.

Youre reasons lean more toward an agenda.

[Young X]

Let's add to this...No matter what you say...

NOTHING will be more "laughable" than Wilt losing WITH his teammate winning FMVP.

He had his own teammate dominating to the point where they had to give him FMVP and he STILL LOST.

[97 bulls]

I think the Celtics time had passed anyway. It was time for Detroit and Chicago to do their thing.
Im not saying they (the 89 Celtics) should've won a championship. But you're on record knocking Pippen because he didnt do more to win a championship. That he should've done more. As if being the Bulls best scorer, 2nd best rebounder, best passer, defender, defensive anchor, offense catalyst. You feel he should've done more???????

The fact is the Bulls overavhieved, while the Celtics underachieved.

[97 bulls]

@,3ball
MJ had the least help by FAR.... Like, you couldn't put 11/8 player Horace Grant on the above list.. That would be laughable...
Let me ask you this...... how many supporting casts were better DEFENSIVELY than the one Jordan had?

[LAZERUSS]

No matter what you say...

NOTHING will be more "laughable" than Wilt losing WITH his teammate winning FMVP.

He had his own teammate dominating to the point where they had to give him FMVP and he STILL LOST.

THAT was the problem. The team failed with West. Guess what? The Lakers essentially fired Van Breda Kolff right after that disgraceful coaching debacle, and replaced him with Joe Mullaney. Mullaney's first order of business...make WILT the focal point of the offense. Chamberlain then went out and was leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%), when he shredded his knee in that ninth game.

Still, a one-legged Wilt was the Lakers best player in that post-season. Oh, and West puked all over the floor in the game seven Finals loss, while his counter-part, Walt Frazier, hung one of the most memorable game seven's of all-time.

After that season, West was a side-kick who choked in his post-seasons, but was lucky enough to have a 35 year old WILT carry his '72 Lakers to a title (and FMVP), which was the only ring of West's career.

[jaydacris]

time to terminate

[Kvnzhangyay]

Even if you take "peak value". How is 26/10/2 on 60% shooting in an era that is widely acknowledged for offense (meaning it was easier to score) any better than 22/9/6 50% in an era known for defense. Meaning that it was harder to score. And this isnt even taking for account intangibles. Pippen ran the offense and anchored the defense. He was a better defender. Even though Mchale was good in his own right.

Youre reasons lean more toward an agenda.

The 80s and 90s were not the hardest eras to score in :biggums:

Scoring is what made the 90s interesting to me (and hence why I hated watching teams like the Knicks)

[Young X]

Oh, and West puked all over the floor in the game seven Finals loss, while his counter-part, Walt Frazier, hung one of the most memorable game seven's of all-time.Wasn't that the Willis Reed game?

Same game where Wilt went 1-11 from the line?

Same game where he even couldn't dominate his opponent who was playing on one good foot?

[97 bulls]

The 80s and 90s were not the hardest eras to score in :biggums:

Scoring is what made the 90s interesting to me (and hence why I hated watching teams like the Knicks)
I didnt say the 80s was a hard era to score in. I said the 90s was hard. And i was comparing the 80s to the 90s.

[LAZERUSS]

Wasn't that the Willis Reed game?

Same game where Wilt went 1-11 from the line?

Same game where he even couldn't dominate his opponent who was playing on one good foot?

You mean the ONE-LEGGED Chamberlain who outscored Reed, 21-4; outrebounded Reed, 24-3; and outshot Reed from the floor, 10-16 to 2-5?

[Young X]

You mean the ONE-LEGGED Chamberlain who outscored Reed, 21-4; outrebounded Reed, 24-3; and outshot Reed from the floor, 10-16 to 2-5?...And still lost.

He went ONE FOR ELEVEN from the line in a GAME 7.

He went 4-13 from the line in a 2 point game 7 loss the previous year while his own teammate dropped 42 and won FMVP.

Sounds like Wilt was the one "puking all over the floor".

[bizil]

So how are you quantifying how much effect that "injury" had on him? Certainly not statistics. He turned in one of the best seasons of his career. I mean here are his numbers

87
26/10/3 60%

89
23/8/3 55%

Hardly a huge drop. And please answer my question. How many more wins do the Celtics get with your "peak value wise" Mchale? 10? 15?


Lol. The Celtics didnt win in 89 for the same reason the Bulls didnt. THEY WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH!!!!!!&!

And using injuries is an excuse. A weak one at that. When an injury effects a player, they miss a lot of games, their stats suffer their career is cut short. None of.these things happened to Mchale. And please show us where he says the foot was the reason the Celtics won only 40 games in 89.


Ok but yoj excuse him but defame Pippen. Again its your opinion ti choose Mchale over Pip. But your reasons are inconsistent, hypocritical, and unrealistic. Again for emphasis. A players prime normally lasts from 26 to about 32. The early years of that tend to be more athletic based and the latter more based on experience. Neither is better than the other.


Even if you take "peak value". How is 26/10/2 on 60% shooting in an era that is widely acknowledged for offense (meaning it was easier to score) any better than 22/9/6 50% in an era known for defense. Meaning that it was harder to score. And this isnt even taking for account intangibles. Pippen ran the offense and anchored the defense. He was a better defender. Even though Mchale was good in his own right.

Youre reasons lean more toward an agenda.

There is NO AGENDA! THE ONLY TIME I get on Pippen's scoring is when people try to say he's a top 20 player of all time. Or that he's on the level of Bird, Bron, or Dr. J. I HAVE SAID that if Pippen was a great scorer that he would have been at one point the GOAT SF. The SCORING part was the only thing that stopped from being the GOAT SF. Because he was an EPIC ALL AROUND PLAYER AND has six rings.

And in general, I would rather have McHale on my team that Pippen. McHale was a great scorer, great defender, and UNSTOPPABLE in the paint. Those are enough reasons for me to want McHale over Pippen. GOAT wise, they are right around the same level for their respective positions.

When I was talking about McHale in 89, I meant the ONLY WAY the Celtics could have got close to a ring was for McHale to be at a peak level. And put up 28 points and 12-13 boards a game. With Bird out that season, they weren't going to win anyway.

But to MAXIMIZE what the team could be, McHale would have had to put up those numbers. At that point, McHale wasn't PHYSICALLY ABLE to amp his game like that. When u are a 2nd option alpha dog, u STEP UP YOUR GAME when the big dog goes down. Westbrook did it with OKC. Kobe did it all the time with Shaq. Magic did it with Kareem. And when Harden (a third option) went to Houston, he EXPLODED on the scene.

I FIRMLY BELIEVE a peak McHale in 1989 could have put up 28 points and 12-13 boards a game. HE AVERAGED 26 points and 10 boards in the 87 season splitting the pie with Bird and Parish in terms of points and rebounding.

If McHale was the go to guy AND HAD to be the dominant rebounder on his team, he could have put up 28 points and 12 boards year after year. While ALSO providing 1st team All NBA defense.

[LAZERUSS]

...And still lost.

He went ONE FOR ELEVEN from the line in a GAME 7.

He went 4-13 from the line in a 2 point game 7 loss the previous year while his own teammate dropped 42 and won FMVP.

Sounds like Wilt was the one "puking all over the floor".

Did you research that '70 game seven? Wilt went 1-8 from the line in the first half...when his team was down by 27 points. And before you blame WILT, he was the ONLY Laker who played well in that game (11 points and 12 rebounds in the first half BTW.)

As for game seven of the '69 Finals...yes, let's ignore Wilt's 7-8 from the FIELD in that game. BTW, Russell shot 2-7 from the field (and 2-4 from the line)...which was interesting. Subtract Wilt's and Russell's FG%'s in that game seven, and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's from the floor by a .477 to .360 margin...in a two point Boston win (and with Wilt sitting on the bench in the last five minutes...after leading a furious comeback which had cut a Boston 17 point lead down to 7 in a span of four minutes.)

Of course, your definition of "puking all over the floor" is for a player who put up an 18-27 7-8 game, and then a 21-24 10-16 game. BTW, find me another all-time great who put up a 23-24 .625 FG% series (in seven games BTW, and only four months removed from major knee surgery.)

[97 bulls]

There is NO AGENDA! THE ONLY TIME I get on Pippen's scoring is when people try to say he's a top 20 player of all time. Or that he's on the level of Bird, Bron, or Dr. J. I HAVE SAID that if Pippen was a great scorer that he would have been at one point the GOAT SF. The SCORING part was the only thing that stopped from being the GOAT SF. Because he was an EPIC ALL AROUND PLAYER AND has six rings.

And in general, I would rather have McHale on my team that Pippen. McHale was a great scorer, great defender, and UNSTOPPABLE in the paint. Those are enough reasons for me to want McHale over Pippen. GOAT wise, they are right around the same level for their respective positions.

When I was talking about McHale in 89, I meant the ONLY WAY the Celtics could have got close to a ring was for McHale to be at a peak level. And put up 28 points and 12-13 boards a game. With Bird out that season, they weren't going to win anyway.

But to MAXIMIZE what the team could be, McHale would have had to put up those numbers. At that point, McHale wasn't PHYSICALLY ABLE to amp his game like that. When u are a 2nd option alpha dog, u STEP UP YOUR GAME when the big dog goes down. Westbrook did it with OKC. Kobe did it all the time with Shaq. Magic did it with Kareem. And when Harden (a third option) went to Houston, he EXPLODED on the scene.

I FIRMLY BELIEVE a peak McHale in 1989 could have put up 28 points and 12-13 boards a game. HE AVERAGED 26 points and 10 boards in the 87 season splitting the pie with Bird and Parish in terms of points and rebounding.

If McHale was the go to guy AND HAD to be the dominant rebounder on his team, he could have put up 28 points and 12 boards year after year. While ALSO providing 1st team All NBA defense.
Again. You're missing the point. If Mchale had more impact than Pippen and was better, then there should be some results. The Celtics underachieved. The Bulls overachieved. And Mchale had a guy to replace Bird. The Bulls didnt.

Then you run to Mchales injury. The fact is it didnt really effect him. He played 70+ games every year after even one where he played a full 82 game season. His stats were normal. I jusr dont see it. Injuries clearly effected the careers of Grant Hill, Tracy Mcgrady, Amare Stoudemire, Andrew Toney, Derrick Rose, Bill Walton amongst others. They played far less games, and their stats showed.

[3ball]

the Bulls still made the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994


MJ had to build the team up into 3-peat champions before they could be 2nd Round without him.

However, before MJ built them into champions, the Bulls were lottery without him - just look at 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would never have made the 42-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%.. They would've been lottery instead of battling the champion Pistons to 6 games in ECF - so MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs in 1989, just like Lebron did this year.

But Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth much more, especially for a #1 option.

[97 bulls]

MJ had to build the team up into 3-peat champions before they could be 2nd Round without him.

However, before MJ built them into champions, the Bulls were lottery without him - just look at 1989 - the 47-win Bulls would never have made the 42-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%.. They would've been lottery instead of battling the champion Pistons to 6 games in ECF - so MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs in 1989, just like Lebron did this year.

But Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth far more, especially for a #1 option.
.
Jordan did not build the Bulls into champions. He was losing year after year just like them. What world do you live on?

And whats with your fascination with Lebron James?

[ClipperRevival]

If I am starting a team, having a guy like Pip is mandatory. That long, ultra athletic wing player who can play both ways. With his freakish wingpsan, athleticism and quickness, he impacted the game in so many ways.

Yes, if we are ranking the best ever, he is clearly a level below tier 1 because he couldn't take over offensively. But in terms of the other positive things he brought to the table (all time great D, ability to play PG, ability to run in transition, ability to finish, pass, rebound, generate steals and just be all over the court with his wingspan and athleticism), his value to any team was tremendous.

So we need to rank Pip accordingly. A clear level below tier 1 but I have no problem ranking him at tier 2. He was never going to lead a team to a ring but he might be the best 2nd fiddle ever. He's the type of talent who could jell with almost any team because he didn't need the ball to score and just played within the flow. Sort of like Kawhi Leonard right now. Just so impactful.

[Round Mound]

If I am starting a team, having a guy like Pip is mandatory. That long, ultra athletic wing player who can play both ways. With his freakish wingpsan, athleticism and quickness, he impacted the game in so many ways.

Yes, if we are ranking the best ever, he is clearly a level below tier 1 because he couldn't take over offensively. But in terms of the other positive things he brought to the table (all time great D, ability to play PG, ability to run in transition, ability to finish, pass, rebound, generate steals and just be all over the court with his wingspan and athleticism), his value to any team was tremendous.

So we need to rank Pip accordingly. A clear level below tier 1 but I have no problem ranking him at tier 2. He was never going to lead a team to a ring but he might be the best 2nd fiddle ever. He's the type of talent who could jell with almost any team because he didn't need the ball to score and just played within the flow. Sort of like Kawhi Leonard right now. Just so impactful.

Kawahi Leonard is similar to Pippen defensively but has nothing offensively compared to Pippen. Pippen wasn`t a great scorer but he`d give you 20-22 ppg on around 47% FG and could handle the ball and create like a point-guard. He was the best point-forward of the 90s. Other than that, you are right about Pippen. I have him Top 7 among All Time SFs.

[ClipperRevival]

Kawahi Leonard is similar to Pippen defensively but has nothing offensively compared to Pippen. Pippen wasn`t a great scorer but he`d give you 20-22 ppg on around 47% FG and could handle the ball and create like a point-guard. He was the best point-forward of the 90s. Other than that, you are right about Pippen. I have him Top 7 among All Time SFs.

Yup. Leonard has a ways to go before he can impact the game like Pip. As a perimeter defender, I would probably rank him right at the top all time. With his wingspan (7'3"?), quick feet and athleticism, he gave anyone he guarded hell. And Leonard is working on his offense and seems to be imoroving but Pip could run the offense and get his once in a while. He just wasn't able to DOMINATE offensively like some of the other GOAT wing scorers. And that's no shame because being able to dominate offensively is something only a few can do.

[bizil]

If I am starting a team, having a guy like Pip is mandatory. That long, ultra athletic wing player who can play both ways. With his freakish wingpsan, athleticism and quickness, he impacted the game in so many ways.

Yes, if we are ranking the best ever, he is clearly a level below tier 1 because he couldn't take over offensively. But in terms of the other positive things he brought to the table (all time great D, ability to play PG, ability to run in transition, ability to finish, pass, rebound, generate steals and just be all over the court with his wingspan and athleticism), his value to any team was tremendous.

So we need to rank Pip accordingly. A clear level below tier 1 but I have no problem ranking him at tier 2. He was never going to lead a team to a ring but he might be the best 2nd fiddle ever. He's the type of talent who could jell with almost any team because he didn't need the ball to score and just played within the flow. Sort of like Kawhi Leonard right now. Just so impactful.

Right on the money! I'm fine with Pippen as a tier two player. The problem is when people underrate alpha dog scoring ability. The better all around player ISN'T the better player in all cases.

The litmus test I always use with Pippen is those six rings. Let's say Barkley had six rings. NO QUESTION he would be a top 10 GOAT. The fact that Pippen ISN'T ANYWHERE CLOSE to top 10 GOAT status tells the tale. Epic all around player and a very good scorer. But he's not on the level of an MJ, Bird, or Bron where they are EPIC in the all around sense and scoring sense. If people think about it like that more often, Pip will be judged properly.

[ClipperRevival]

Right on the money! I'm fine with Pippen as a tier two player. The problem is when people underrate alpha dog scoring ability. The better all around player ISN'T the better player in all cases.

The litmus test I always use with Pippen is those six rings. Let's say Barkley had six rings. NO QUESTION he would be a top 10 GOAT. The fact that Pippen ISN'T ANYWHERE CLOSE to top 10 GOAT status tells the tale. Epic all around player and a very good scorer. But he's not on the level of an MJ, Bird, or Bron where they are EPIC in the all around sense and scoring sense. If people think about it like that more often, Pip will be judged properly.

Yup. And he is ranked accordingly. Nothing carries more weight than winning multiple rings as "the man". Being the focal point of the D every night, facing the doubles and still coming through and dominating and holding that Lombardi trophy at the end of the season. Pip complimented MJ perfectly. Like you said before, his D allowed MJ to conserve some energy and not always guard the opposition's best player every night. And together, they formed the most devastating 2/3 combo ever.

[97 bulls]

Right on the money! I'm fine with Pippen as a tier two player. The problem is when people underrate alpha dog scoring ability. The better all around player ISN'T the better player in all cases.

The litmus test I always use with Pippen is those six rings. Let's say Barkley had six rings. NO QUESTION he would be a top 10 GOAT. The fact that Pippen ISN'T ANYWHERE CLOSE to top 10 GOAT status tells the tale. Epic all around player and a very good scorer. But he's not on the level of an MJ, Bird, or Bron where they are EPIC in the all around sense and scoring sense. If people think about it like that more often, Pip will be judged properly.
I think Pippen isnt ranked higher because he wasn't the best player on any of his teams. Not because he wasnt a big time scorer.

[ClipperRevival]

Does anyone know Pip's wingspan? I was doing a little searching and I see alot of 7'2"ish. That's freakish as hell. And one of several reasons why he was so impactful. And he was so fluid, quick, explosive and coordinated. If you had to draw up the perfect wing player, Pip would be that guy. The guy was just blessed and hit the genetic lottery.

[TheCorporation]

This is nothing new for Pippen - he only averaged 15/8/3 on 34% in the 1996 Finals - that's the worst performance by a 2nd option EVER..


Jason Terry put up 18-3-2 on 49% on obviously much less defense. Dirk's 2nd option wasn't the greatest.

15/8/3 on 34% vs 18-3-2 on 49% (And Terry's stats on inflated because he had a huge game 6 putting up 27 on 69%) if you take away that game, then up to the game 6 Terry was putting up: 16-3-2 on 43%

Yes, I know Dirk had Marion (who was still serviceable at the time) and Barea had a good series, and having the eventual DPOY Tyson Chandler around helped too, but Dirk's 2nd option was nothing special.

[3ball]

Does anyone know Pip's wingspan?


Not sure.

But when I played with Anthony Parker in 1997, he had just played with the Select Team against the 1996 Dream Team.. AP claimed Pippen was 6'9"... This didn't surprise me.. I always though Pippen looked a lot taller than 6'7".. That's barely an inch taller than MJ.

[TheCorporation]

Kawahi Leonard is similar to Pippen defensively but has nothing offensively compared to Pippen. Pippen wasn`t a great scorer but he`d give you 20-22 ppg on around 47% FG and could handle the ball and create like a point-guard. He was the best point-forward of the 90s. Other than that, you are right about Pippen. I have him Top 7 among All Time SFs.

If we are attempting to make modern comparisons I'd much rather say Pippen is closer to Paul George because of his offense. Leonard is closer on defense, though.

[TheCorporation]

If I am starting a team, having a guy like Pip is mandatory. That long, ultra athletic wing player who can play both ways. With his freakish wingpsan, athleticism and quickness, he impacted the game in so many ways.

Yes, if we are ranking the best ever, he is clearly a level below tier 1 because he couldn't take over offensively. But in terms of the other positive things he brought to the table (all time great D, ability to play PG, ability to run in transition, ability to finish, pass, rebound, generate steals and just be all over the court with his wingspan and athleticism), his value to any team was tremendous.

So we need to rank Pip accordingly. A clear level below tier 1 but I have no problem ranking him at tier 2. He was never going to lead a team to a ring but he might be the best 2nd fiddle ever. He's the type of talent who could jell with almost any team because he didn't need the ball to score and just played within the flow. Sort of like Kawhi Leonard right now. Just so impactful.

Hard to rank a better second fiddle higher, although I have to say that other all-time great second fiddles were once the #1 guy (Kobe with Shaq, who later became the man and won back to back), or (Wade with LBJ, but Wade did get his Finals MVP in 06), or (Kareem with Magic) you get the idea. Pippen never lead his team to a Finals like the other all-time great second options did. Having said that, I still think Pippen is in tier 2. If we are saying tier 1 is top 10, tier 2 is top 25, tier 3 top 50.

[ClipperRevival]

Not sure.

But when I played with Anthony Parker in 1997, he had just played with the Select Team against the 1996 Dream Team.. AP claimed Pippen was 6'9"... This didn't surprise me.. I always though Pippen looked a lot taller than 6'7".. That's barely an inch taller than MJ.

I said wingspan. Not height.

[3ball]

Jordan did not build the Bulls into champions. He was losing year after year just like them.


Without MJ's 33/8/8 in 1989, the 47-win Bulls miss the playoff cut of 42 wins and are in the lottery.

So it's pretty obvious how MJ built the Bulls into champions: in 1989, he put a lottery team in ECF with goat stats and performance - then he kept building the team from there.

But if the Bulls didn't have MJ in 1989 and were a lottery team, they would've been a totally different team by 1994 - they wouldn't be defending, 3-peat champions and capable of executing at a 3-peat level, or anywhere remotely close.

So again, the achievements of the 1994 Bulls (2nd Round) were only possible after MJ built them up into 3-peat champions - that exact same roster was lottery-quality in 1989 (before MJ put them in ECF and built the team into champions with goat stats and performance).

[97 bulls]

Without MJ's 33/8/8 in 1989, the 47-win Bulls miss the playoff cut of 42 wins and are in the lottery.

So it's pretty obvious how MJ built the Bulls into champions: in 1989, he put a lottery team in ECF with goat stats and performance - then he built the team from there.

But if the Bulls didn't have MJ in 1989 and were a lottery team, they would've been a totally different team by 1994 - they wouldn't be defending, 3-peat champions and capable of executing at a 3-peat level, or anywhere remotely close.

So again, the achievements of the 1994 Bulls (2nd Round) were only possible after MJ built them up into 3-peat champions - that exact same roster was LOTTERY-quality in 1989.
I dont know about that. Jordan basically missed three seasons during his career. 86, 94, and 95. They made the playoffs all three years. Care to explain why?

[ClipperRevival]

Hard to rank a better second fiddle higher, although I have to say that other all-time great second fiddles were once the #1 guy (Kobe with Shaq, who later became the man and won back to back), or (Wade with LBJ, but Wade did get his Finals MVP in 06), or (Kareem with Magic) you get the idea. Pippen never lead his team to a Finals like the other all-time great second options did. Having said that, I still think Pippen is in tier 2. If we are saying tier 1 is top 10, tier 2 is top 25, tier 3 top 50.

Yeah, those guys were "the man" before so it's different. I probably put Pippen somewhere from 25-35.

[TheCorporation]

Yeah, those guys were "the man" before so it's different. I probably put Pippen somewhere from 25-35.

You know, I find it hard to rank him, too. Because he has the hardware (6 rings as the second option each year is pretty impressive, yes he never won the Finals MVP, but he was clearly the #2 guy every single year, which is still impressive). You look at teams like the Spurs and their #2 guys changes every year they won (practically). Usually guys that win 6 rings don't win them all as the second option each time. So while he isn't the #1 guy, I think it would be terribly hard to win 6 rings as even the #2 guy each year. I think I have to put Pippen in the top 25 for that reason. His amazing defense and ability to score the ball, his intangibles etc. are also other reasons to rank him so highly.

[3ball]

Jordan basically missed three seasons during his career. 86, 94, and 95. They made the playoffs all three years. Care to explain why?



I already did, but you're not smart enough to comprehend my posts.. But I'll answer your redundant questions anyway, because I like when people learn.


1986:


MJ was hurt and the Bulls replaced him with 22 ppg George Gervin - this helped them win a paltry 30 games... But for that particular season, 30 games was just enough for the 8 seed.. (MJ actually contributed too - he played 18 games where they went 9-9 for .500, which is far better than their .366 overall win %)


1994:


MJ needed to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty before they could make the 2nd Round without him.. Before that, the exact same roster was lottery-quality (in 1989, Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54% allowed the Bulls to win 47 games and avoid playoff cutoff of 42 wins).


1995:


Other than Pippen, every single player was new when MJ game back.. Only a delusional fool with no other argument would convince himself that the chemistry should be the same after 2 years off, only 17 regular season games, and a completely new team.

But in MJ's first full season, he led the Bulls back to a championship and eventually another 3-peat, which VERIFIED his goat 3-peat to 2nd Round impact.*

* MJ had the goat impact on bad teams too, even more than Lebron - both players led a team that would've been lottery without them, to 6 games with the champs, except MJ's stats were better.

Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.


.

[97 bulls]

Also. Let's take into consideration who he was second fiddle to. Jordan is the consensus best ever. Anyone would be second fiddle to him. Some of you guys act like he was the number two guy behind Chauncy Billups.

[3ball]

Bulls made playoffs in 1994 without MJ and even made 2nd Round


MJ needed to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty before they could make the 2nd Round without him..

This is a fact..

Before that, the exact same roster was lottery-quality in 1989, when Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54% allowed the Bulls to win 47 games and avoid playoff cutoff of 42 wins..

But if the Bulls didn't have MJ in 1989 and were a lottery team, they would've been a totally different team by 1994 - they wouldn't be defending, 3-peat champions and capable of executing at a 3-peat level, or anywhere remotely close.

So again, the achievements of the 1994 Bulls (2nd Round) were only possible after MJ built them up into 3-peat champions because that exact same roster was LOTTERY in 1989.

[97 bulls]

MJ needed to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty before they could make the 2nd Round without him..

This is a fact..

Before that, the exact same roster was lottery-quality in 1989, when Jordan's 33/8/8 on 54% allowed the Bulls to win 47 games and avoid playoff cutoff of 42 wins..

But if the Bulls didn't have MJ in 1989 and were a lottery team, they would've been a totally different team by 1994 - they wouldn't be defending, 3-peat champions and capable of executing at a 3-peat level, or anywhere remotely close.

So again, the achievements of the 1994 Bulls (2nd Round) were only possible after MJ built them up into 3-peat champions because that exact same roster was LOTTERY in 1989.
How did he build them? He wasn't winning until his team improved. Please answer this??? Jordan to learn how to win himself. He had ti stop being a ball hog. He had to utilze his team better. Please address this

[3ball]

How did he build them?


Here's how MJ built the team:

They were lottery in 1989 without MJ.... but they were ECF and 1 season away from starting 3-peat with MJ.

No one else can say that (remember a three-peat team is FAR better than a 1 or 2-off champion).





He had ti stop being a ball hog. He had to utilze his team better.


MJ was a ball-hog his entire career.. His assist percentages were much higher in the 80's than the 90's... He averaged 8 apg in 1989!!

Don't listen to everything you hear on TV - most of it is WRONG - you will learn that more and more as you get older.

Here's what actually happened - MJ schooled Pippen on the game and Pippen got better.. When Pippen was good enough, they started winning.. But Pippen was still less help than Magic's Kareem/Worthy.. or Kobe's Shaq... Or Lebron's 10-time all-star 3rd option (Bosh), plus Wade... Or Duncan's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi... Seriously - all players need help, but MJ clearly has the least.. Just look at that list of players.. It's not close.

Btw, when MJ ball-hogged, he did it smartly, like Bird (off-ball, quick decisions and less time of possession to optimize chemistry and offensive options... and also so teammates don't stand around)
.

[nzahir]

1989 was ALL JORDAN - he took a lottery team to the ECF and 6 games with the champs.

Accordingly, going into the 1990 season, the Bulls were just 1 season away from starting a 3-peat, instead of lottery if they didn't have MJ..

THAT'S how MJ built the team - his presence - lottery vs. ECF and 1 season away from starting 3-peat - no one else can say that (remember a three-peat team is FAR better than a 1 or 2-off champion).



MJ was a ball-hog his entire career.. His assist percentages were much higher in the 80's than the 90's... He averaged 8 apg in 1989!!

Don't listen to everything you hear on TV - most of it is WRONG - you will learn that more and more as you get older.

Here's what actually happened - MJ schooled Pippen on the game and Pippen got better.. When Pippen was good enough, they started winning.. But Pippen was still less help than Magic's Kareem/Worthy.. or Kobe's Shaq... Or a 10-time all-star as 3rd option plus Wade... Or Duncan's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi... Seriously - all players need help, but MJ clearly has the least.. Just look at that list of players.. It's not close.

Btw, when MJ ball-hogged, he did it smartly, like Bird (off-ball, quick decisions and less time of possession to optimize chemistry and offensive options... and so teammates don't stand around)
.
1991-1993 were average final supporting teams but the 2nd 3 peat had the best supporting cast ever. Rodman(great defender and goat rebounder) pippen(best wing defender ever and could guard 1-4 for sure and even 5 at times), kukoc(great stretch 4), kerr(one of best shooters ever), harper(averaged 20 or more 2 years before comign to chicago, and 20 the year before coming), and longley. https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=610&h=2028

[3ball]

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=610&h=2028


Honestly, I don't know how anyone that is college-educated falls for that chart.

That chart assumes a supporting player will play the same regardless of who they are playing alongside of.

For example, the chart says Lebron's supporting casts aren't that great, when those guys simply don't play well next to Lebron (i.e. Love, Bosh)...

Otoh, MJ's less talented teammates (guys like Kerr, Paxson) play better alongside MJ, than the MORE talented Chalmers and Cole played alongside Lebron.. Like, if Chalmers and Cole played alongside MJ, their stats would be a little better, so the chart would say MJ's cast is better.. :hammerhead:

[Kvnzhangyay]

Otoh, MJ's less talented teammates (guys like Kerr, Paxson) play better alongside MJ, than the MORE talented Chalmers and Cole played alongside Lebron.. Like, if Chalmers and Cole played alongside MJ, their stats would be a little better, so the chart would say MJ's cast is better.. :hammerhead:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Honestly, I don't know how anyone that is college-educated can believe that, as anyone that is college educated should be old enough to have actually watched the bulls.

Anyone that thinks that the supporting cast for the Heat is better than Chicago's back then obviously has not watched enough games of the Bulls in the 90's

[nzahir]

Honestly, I don't know how anyone that is college-educated falls for that chart.

That chart assumes a supporting player will play the same regardless of who they are playing alongside of.

For example, the chart says Lebron's supporting casts aren't that great, when those guys simply don't play well next to Lebron (i.e. Love, Bosh)...

Otoh, MJ's less talented teammates (guys like Kerr, Paxson) play better alongside MJ, than the MORE talented Chalmers and Cole played alongside Lebron.. Like, if Chalmers and Cole played alongside MJ, their stats would be a little better, so the chart would say MJ's cast is better.. :hammerhead:
Now you are just lying to yourself.
Chalmers fg% dropped 5% without bron and 3s dropped by 9%; wade fg% dropped 8%, bosh fg% dropped 6% but his 3pt pct went up(he shooting more though).
Lebron is a better passer and playmaker than MJ(ANY ANALYST WILL TELL YOU THIS) so he can make the best of any shooters and find them quickly.
Lebrons impact....cavs go from bottom feeders to almost winning it all with huge injuries. Heat go from 4 finals trips to missing the east playoffs. Stop it. 1-9 without pippen. Lebron the GOAT impact, its true. Mj still the goat but stop disrespecting Lebron. Lebron top 5-7 easy rn and can end up top 3 or maybe better

[SouBeachTalents]

But Pippen was still less help than Lebron's 10-time all-star 3rd option (Bosh), plus Wade... MJ clearly has the least


In the playoffs

'12 Wade: 23/5/4 on 46%
'91 Pippen: 22/9/6 50%

'12 Bosh: 14 & 8 on 49%
'91 Grant: 13 & 8 on 58%

'13 Wade: 16/5/5 on 46%
'92 Pippen: 20/9/7 on 47%

'13 Bosh: 12 & 7 on 46%
'92 Grant: 11/9/3 on 54%

..

[Lakers Legend#32]

He will always be Robin.

[nzahir]

..
Hell never reply truthfull or objectivelly tbh and pippen is goat wing defender

[aj1987]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Honestly, I don't know how anyone that is college-educated can believe that, as anyone that is college educated should be old enough to have actually watched the bulls.

Anyone that thinks that the supporting cast for the Heat is better than Chicago's back then obviously has not watched enough games of the Bulls in the 90's
The guy probably has never even touched a basketball in his life. Dude admitted that he doesn't watch games either. He just goes off of BB-Ref. He's a stat nerd, who pretends to have been a college basketball player.

[Kvnzhangyay]

The guy probably has never even touched a basketball in his life. Dude admitted that he doesn't watch games either. He just goes off of BB-Ref. He's a stat nerd, who pretends to have been a college basketball player.

But wait, he apparently used to play D1 ball and dunked on Zach Randolph before!! :bowdown: :bowdown:

[aj1987]

But wait, he apparently used to play D1 ball and dunked on Zach Randolph before!! :bowdown: :bowdown:
The only dunking he has ever experienced is when Jordan dunked his nuts in 3balls mouth.

[3ball]

But wait, he apparently used to play D1 ball


for 2 different schools.





and dunked on Zach Randolph before!! :bowdown: :bowdown:


4 times in a row.. 3 of those times I used the same move (hesitation dribble going left - Zach slow af)

I've dunked on tons of dudes that way, literally many hundreds, including this guy for example:


http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAz/z/Ya8AAMXQudxRYXF9/$T2eC16d,!ysE9sy0jLFoBRY(F9UULw~~60_35.JPG

[ClipperRevival]

for 2 different schools.



4 times in a row.. 3 of those times I used the same move (hesitation dribble going left - Zach slow af)

I've dunked on tons of dudes that way, literally many hundreds, including this guy for example:


http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAz/z/Ya8AAMXQudxRYXF9/$T2eC16d,!ysE9sy0jLFoBRY(F9UULw~~60_35.JPG

If you played for 2 different colleges, you should be on the web. What's your name and what school did you play for so I can look it up?

[kshutts1]

So again, the achievements of the 1994 Bulls (2nd Round) were only possible after MJ built them up into 3-peat champions - that exact same roster was lottery-quality in 1989 (before MJ put them in ECF and built the team into champions with goat stats and performance).
I can't believe no one has blasted him about this little nugget.

[ShawkFactory]

for 2 different schools.



4 times in a row.. 3 of those times I used the same move (hesitation dribble going left - Zach slow af)

I've dunked on tons of dudes that way, literally many hundreds, including this guy for example:


http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAz/z/Ya8AAMXQudxRYXF9/$T2eC16d,!ysE9sy0jLFoBRY(F9UULw~~60_35.JPG
If that's true that would put you WELL into your 30s :roll:

[kshutts1]

If that's true that would put you WELL into your 30s :roll:
His posting style, where he doesn't respond to, or even read, responses to his own posts says that he's in his 70s.

Way too "stuck in his ways" to be anything but retirement age.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball's alts giving him traction and forum notoriety. Hilarious. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Honestly, I don't know how anyone that is college-educated can believe that

(that Chalmers and Norris Cole were more talented than Kerr, Paxson)



:wtf: ... Chalmers and Cole are FAR more talented than Kerr, Paxson:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-23-2015/jv0aJN.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-23-2015/vwqub-.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-23-2015/BigGHc.gif


Show me where Paxson and Kerr exhibited this level of talent.. I'll wait

Again, MJ got more out of less talented teammates - this isn't disputable - the stats prove it, and Kerr/Paxson are CLEARLY less talented than Chalmer/Cole.

[kshutts1]

:wtf: ... Chalmers and Cole are FAR more talented than Kerr, Paxson:
Show me where Paxson and Kerr exhibited this level of talent.. I'll wait

Again, MJ got more out of less talented teammates - this isn't disputable - the stats prove it, and Kerr/Paxson are CLEARLY less talented than Chalmer/Cole.
You're right. Dunking is the only way to show skill.

[3ball]

I can't believe no one has blasted him about this little nugget (that MJ's Bulls were lottery without him in 1989)


What the **** are you talking about.

The Bulls won 47 games in 1989... The cutoff to make playoffs was 42... Without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%, the Bulls miss playoffs.

That means MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs in 1989, just like Lebron did this year.

Except Lebron's stats weren't as good.. Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

[kshutts1]

What the **** are you talking about.

The Bulls won 47 games in 1989... The cutoff to make playoffs was 42... Without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%, the Bulls miss playoffs.

That means MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs in 1989, just like Lebron did this year.

Only Lebron's stats weren't as good.. Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.
You LITERALLY didn't respond to anything I posted.

You said the teams of '89 and '94 were the exact same. That is, literally, one of the most idiotic things I have ever read on this forum, and that includes posts by Theoo and KendrickPerkins and Fudge and all the other people that try to be imbeciles.

[ClipperRevival]

3ball's alts giving him traction and forum notoriety. Hilarious. :oldlol:

Hope you aren't referring to me cause I'm not that guy. Last thing I want to be known for is being a guy who lacks objectivity.

[LAZERUSS]

:wtf: ... Chalmers and Cole are FAR more talented than Kerr, Paxson:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-23-2015/jv0aJN.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-23-2015/vwqub-.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-23-2015/BigGHc.gif


Show me where Paxson and Kerr exhibited this level of talent.. I'll wait

Again, MJ got more out of less talented teammates - this isn't disputable - the stats prove it, and Kerr/Paxson are CLEARLY less talented than Chalmer/Cole.

Give me James White over John Stockton any day of the week.

Much more talented.

[3ball]

You LITERALLY didn't respond to anything I posted.


Of course I did - you didn't believe the Bulls were a lottery team in 1989 without MJ - when I said this, you called it "a little nugget", which means you thought it was BS.

So I had to show you that:

The Bulls won 47 games in 1989... The cutoff to make playoffs was 42... Without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%, the Bulls miss playoffs.

That means MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs in 1989, just like Lebron did this year.

Only Lebron's stats weren't as good.. Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.





You said the teams of '89 and '94 were the exact same.


Learn to read.. Seriously - you've misread virtually every single post of mine that you quoted.

I said the 1989 and 1991 rosters were identical, proving that the team improved under MJ's leadership... This shows MJ's goat impact: without MJ, the Bulls were a lottery team heading the 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting 3-peat.

Remember, MJ didn't just take them from lottery in 1989 to a 1-off championship in 1991 - he took them from lottery in 1989 to 3-peat, which is a MUCH further distance to travel and represents a far greater impact.
.

[TheMan]

3ball embarrassing himself in this thread :facepalm

[kshutts1]

Of course I did - [B]you didn't believe the Bulls were a lottery team in 1989 without MJ -

Learn to read.. Seriously - you've misread virtually every single post of mine that you quoted.

I said the 1989 and 1991 rosters were identical, proving that the team improved under MJ's leadership...
.
To the first point, I believe that they would have been a lotto team without him in 1989. That was never part of my response.

To my second point, perhaps you made a typo, then, because you clearly said '94 and '89 were the same team.

And, typo or not, it's entirely misleading to claim that, while the pieces may be the same (players), the roster itself has not changed (players getting much much better, or worse).

The last two points were the two that I was making. But there was a miscommunication between us, whether through lack of comprehension or a typo, I'm not sure which.

[3ball]

Give me James White over John Stockton any day of the week.

Much more talented.


you must've done horrifically on the analogy section of any test you took.

cole, chalmers, paxson and kerr are all the exact same type of player - spot-up shooting role players.

It's literally the definition of dumb to think kerr vs. cole and james white vs. stockton are the same comparisons... I'm guessing your SAT score was less than 1000, probably A LOT less.

if i were you, i would just accept that cole and chalmers had superior talent, so you don't look like a complete dumbass that needs a GED

[kshutts1]

you must've done horrifically on the analogy section of any test you took.

cole, chalmers, paxson and kerr are all the exact same type of player - spot-up shooting role players.

It's literally the definition of dumb to think kerr vs. cole and james white vs. stockton are the same comparisons... I'm guessing your SAT score was less than 1000, probably A LOT less.

if i were you, i would just accept that cole and chalmers had superior talent, so you don't look like a complete dumbass that needs a GED
If that's their role, and you acknowledge that, why do you determine the skill level of each by using an area outside of their defined role, namely dunking?

[3ball]

If that's their role, and you acknowledge that, why do you determine the skill level of each by using an area outside of their defined role, namely dunking?
even spot-up shooters are forced to make plays during the game - chalmers and cole have the athletic talent to be far superior in this area, yet they weren't.

of course, their defensive capacity was even greater - they should've been FAR superior defenders... not even close

(however, when i was playing college ball near chicago, we were visited by Jerry Krause, a fat, disgusting human being... but it was still an honor and he actually knew a ton about the game - and he told us that the way Kerr and Paxson stayed in front of quicker defenders was to use a little-known technique (Krause implied it was proprietary to the Bulls, at least at the time) where they bounced on their toes the entire time while guarding a quick ball-handler - it had been proven that by doing so, you react quicker to the ballhandler's move... Coach made the team adopt this technique and we were the best defensive team in the conference, by far (that shit works like a mother****er)
.

[nzahir]

you must've done horrifically on the analogy section of any test you took.

cole, chalmers, paxson and kerr are all the exact same type of player - spot-up shooting role players.

It's literally the definition of dumb to think kerr vs. cole and james white vs. stockton are the same comparisons... I'm guessing your SAT score was less than 1000, probably A LOT less.

if i were you, i would just accept that cole and chalmers had superior talent, so you don't look like a complete dumbass that needs a GED
Norris cole-33% from 3; steve kerr 46% from 3.......:facepalm
You are the worst poster on here and you never replied to this b/c you knew you had 0 case against it. Plus pippen is a much better defender(well b/c hes the goat perimeter defender). You constantly try to make Mj's teammates look bad even though statistics say he had some of the best teams ever and you constantly lie in general. Nobody here believes you played basketball. If so whats your name and lets see a tagged pic of your id(cover your address). You give MJ a terrible name, people on other forums laugh at this forum b/c of people like u.
In the playoffs

'12 Wade: 23/5/4 on 46%
'91 Pippen: 22/9/6 50%

'12 Bosh: 14 & 8 on 49%
'91 Grant: 13 & 8 on 58%

'13 Wade: 16/5/5 on 46%
'92 Pippen: 20/9/7 on 47%

'13 Bosh: 12 & 7 on 46%
'92 Grant: 11/9/3 on 54%

[ShawkFactory]

you must've done horrifically on the analogy section of any test you took.

cole, chalmers, paxson and kerr are all the exact same type of player - spot-up shooting role players.

It's literally the definition of dumb to think kerr vs. cole and james white vs. stockton are the same comparisons... I'm guessing your SAT score was less than 1000, probably A LOT less.

if i were you, i would just accept that cole and chalmers had superior talent, so you don't look like a complete dumbass that needs a GED
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

The second paragraph of course.

[aj1987]

3ball literally just admitted that basketball today is better than in the '90's, since Shitmers and Cole > Kerr and Paxon.

Give it up dude. You've admitted that you don't actually watch the games. You've never even touched a basketball in your life. You get all your "facts" from BB-Ref.

tl;dr - You're a stat nerd who thinks he knows basketball.

[KirbyPls]

Norris cole-33% from 3; steve kerr 46% from 3.......:facepalm
You are the worst poster on here and you never replied to this b/c you knew you had 0 case against it. Plus pippen is a much better defender(well b/c hes the goat perimeter defender). You constantly try to make Mj's teammates look bad even though statistics say he had some of the best teams ever and you constantly lie in general. Nobody here believes you played basketball. If so whats your name and lets see a tagged pic of your id(cover your address). You give MJ a terrible name, people on other forums laugh at this forum b/c of people like u.
In the playoffs

'12 Wade: 23/5/4 on 46%
'91 Pippen: 22/9/6 50%

'12 Bosh: 14 & 8 on 49%
'91 Grant: 13 & 8 on 58%

'13 Wade: 16/5/5 on 46%
'92 Pippen: 20/9/7 on 47%

'13 Bosh: 12 & 7 on 46%
'92 Grant: 11/9/3 on 54%

Yikes. :eek:

[3ball]

Norris cole-33% from 3; steve kerr 46% from 3


Battier, Ray Allen, Cole, Chalmers - they ALL had far more athletic ability than Kerr and Paxson, yet the the story was frequently how they underperformed alongside Lebron.. But when MJ was winning rings with Kerr, Paxson and other supporting help, the story was never how they underperformed alongside MJ.

Kerr and Paxson played so well alongside MJ, it led to notoriety, which benefited their post-playing career.. If it wasn't for MJ, you'd never have heard of Kerr or Paxson..

But Chalmers, Cole, Battier - there is a much less likelihood that anyone will have any idea who these guys are 10 years from now because they never played that great alongside Lebron, despite having more athletic talent than Paxson, Kerr.





Plus pippen is a much better defender(well b/c hes the goat perimeter defender).


Unlike you, I have support for my claims that MJ is the better defender: Pippen never won the award for best defensive player in the NBA.

Whereas MJ did in 1988, while also being the scoring leader - he was the best offensive AND defensive player in the same season.. But keep deluding yourself about Pippen.. Jerry West (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtKnm-Sf7t8&t=1m18s) and countless others have said MJ was the best defender in the game.





Nobody here believes you played basketball.


Don't care.. I can remember my organized playing days anytime I want.

The only reason I ever mention it at all on an internet forum, is because sometimes it's worth mentioning when we're talking about basketball.





'12 Wade: 23/5/4 on 46%
'91 Pippen: 22/9/6 50%


Here's an objective analysis of Wade vs. Pippen at the same age:

Wade's playoff averages (11'-14') (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 20.3 ppg.. 5.2 rpg.. 4.3 apg.. 47.5% fg
Pippen's playoff averages (96'-98') (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game): 17.1 ppg.. 7.4 rpg.. 5.0 apg.. 40.8% fg
.

[Hey Yo]

I said the 1989 and 1991 rosters were identical, proving that the team improved under MJ's leadership... This shows MJ's goat impact: without MJ, the Bulls were a lottery team heading the 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from starting 3-peat
One big difference was that Collins was the coach in 1989 and PJ 1991.

Surely you can't think that Phil and his new system intoduced to the players had nothing to do with the teams improvements.

[3ball]

One big difference was that Collins was the coach in 1989 and PJ 1991.


Phil didn't win in 1990 when he took over.

He just continued the direction Collins was going - Phil lost to Pistons in 7 games, after Collins had lost in 6 and 5 games the previous 2 years (1988 and 1989).

That's not to say that the triangle didn't give the role players a more consistent means of being involved... That's true... But this requires tremendous skill and ability of the star players to allow this to happen - the triangle is one of the most complicated offenses of all time.. Nt ANY team can run the triangle..

Infact, almost no team can.. The only teams that ever have, were teams that had MJ, Shaq and Kobe.





Surely you can't think that Phil and his new system intoduced to the players had nothing to do with the teams improvements.


The system is nothing without the most dominant post player in the game - i.e. Shaq... MJ... or Kobe/Pau.

And for Jordan, it required him to BUY IN... He had to agree to get his points in different fashion than he was accustomed (even more off-ball than before, and much less breaking the offense to go 1-on-1).
.

[nzahir]

Battier, Ray Allen, Cole, Chalmers - they ALL had far more athletic ability than Kerr and Paxson, yet the the story was frequently how they underperformed alongside Lebron.. But when MJ was winning rings with Kerr, Paxson and other supporting help, the story was never how they underperformed alongside MJ.

Kerr and Paxson played so well alongside MJ, it led to notoriety, which benefited their post-playing career.. If it wasn't for MJ, you'd never have heard of Kerr or Paxson..

But Chalmers, Cole, Battier - there is a much less likelihood that anyone will have any idea who these guys are 10 years from now because they never played that great alongside Lebron, despite having more athletic talent than Paxson, Kerr.



Unlike you, I have support for my claims that MJ is the better defender: Pippen never won the award for best defensive player in the NBA.

Whereas MJ did in 1988, while also being the scoring leader - he was the best offensive AND defensive player in the same season.. But keep deluding yourself about Pippen.. Jerry West (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtKnm-Sf7t8&t=1m18s) and countless others have said MJ was the best defender in the game.



Don't care.. I can remember my organized playing days anytime I want.

The only reason I ever mention it at all on an internet forum, is because sometimes it's worth mentioning when we're talking about basketball.



Here's an objective analysis of Wade vs. Pippen at the same age:

Wade's playoff averages (11'-14') (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:playoffs_per_game):. 20.3 ppg.. 5.2 rpg.. 4.3 apg.. 47.5% fg
Pippen's playoff averages (96'-98') (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_per_game): 17.1 ppg.. 7.4 rpg.. 5.0 apg.. 40.8% fg
.
:facepalm
If you really played sports you would give us proof, but since you wont then everything is you say is false and biased.
So if athleticism was so important why is bird top 5 all time? And his prime arguably better than Mj's?
I dont think anybody would even know about cole or chalmers nba careers without lebron. I gave you proof on how his teammates numbers werent as good this year without him. I wonder if people even cared about TT before this year...they didnt, everyone called him a bust. Why was kyrie called a loser and not able to make playoffs without lebron...same for love? You are just making yourself look bad.


And remember...1-9 without pippen and 55 wins without MJ

[3ball]

This is to Hey Yo - I significantly edited my response to your post above.

[ShawkFactory]

This is to Hey Yo - I significantly edited my response to your post above.
This is to you - you're a pathetic human being

[nzahir]

This is to you - you're a pathetic human being
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Kevin-Garnett-Reaction-at-2013-Dunk-Contest.gif

[3ball]

And remember...1-9 without pippen


And remember - anytime you say this, you're saying Bird's 60+ win Celtics and their #1 defense are equal to Gilbert Arenas' 42-40 Wizards and their 22-ranked defense.

But this is why ESPN decided to squash the 1-9 poppycock by proving Lebron plays far worse competition:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCgun8e3oSoCJayBFfL2V1_wN_yWMj9 _flu8D0Lm8G9y9nyq-dllP0jQ


Of course, MJ didn't have any all-star help when battling the Celtics.

Otoh, Zydrunas Illgauskas was named an all-star in 2003 and 2005.. So Lebron missed the playoffs in 2005 despite having an All-Star on his team.. And when he won his first playoff game in 2006, he did so with the help of a 2-time All-Star.

Otoh, MJ never played with an all-star, or anything NEAR that during his early playoff career... But once he got just 1 all-star, he went 6/6.. Whereas, Lebron missed the playoffs despite having an all-star, and only went 2/4 with two all-stars in Miami.





and 55 wins without MJ


The playoffs is what matters and the Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, after being a 3-peat dynasty with MJ.

Of course, the Bulls didn't just make the 2nd round randomly - MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty first, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.

But before MJ led them to a 3-peat, the Bulls were lottery without him.. Just look at 1989 - the cutoff to make the playoffs was 42 wins, so without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%, the 47-win Bulls would've missed playoffs.. That means MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs in 1989, just like Lebron did this year.

Except Lebron's stats were worse.. He averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

Remember, every Bulls championship required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer of all time (all-time PPG leader in RS, PO and Finals).. Therefore, it's a mathematical fact that MJ had the least help of all time.

So when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers that could score a lot of points, it was due to the 3-peat caliber of strategy, execution, and mental ability accumulated from winning 3 straight championships..

The accumulation of execution ability with each championship run is why MJ had to lead the Bulls to 3-peat, before the team had the capability to make 2nd Round without him.. Before MJ did led them to a 3-peat, the Bulls were lottery without MJ (see the aforementioned 1989 season).
.

[nzahir]

And remember - anytime you say this, you're saying Bird's 60+ win Celtics and their #1 defense are equal to Gilbert Arenas' 42-40 Wizards and their 22-ranked defense.

But this is why ESPN decided to squash the 1-9 poppycock by proving Lebron plays far worse competition:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCgun8e3oSoCJayBFfL2V1_wN_yWMj9 _flu8D0Lm8G9y9nyq-dllP0jQ


Of course, MJ didn't have any all-star help when battling the Celtics.

Otoh, Zydrunas Illgauskas was named an all-star in 2003 and 2005.. So Lebron missed the playoffs in 2005 despite having an All-Star on his team.. And when he won his first playoff game in 2006, he did so with the help of a 2-time All-Star.

Otoh, MJ never played with an all-star, or anything NEAR that during his early playoff career... But once he got just 1 all-star, he went 6/6.. Whereas, Lebron missed the playoffs despite having an all-star, and only went 2/4 with two all-stars in Miami.



The playoffs is what matters and the Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, after being a 3-peat dynasty with MJ.

Of course, MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat dynasty first, before the team could make the 2nd Round without him.

But before MJ led them to a 3-peat, the Bulls were lottery without him.. Just look at 1989 - the cutoff to make the playoffs was 42 wins, so without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%, the 47-win Bulls would've missed playoffs.. That means MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs in 1989, just like Lebron did this year.

Except Lebron's stats were worse.. He averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

Remember, every Bulls championship required MJ to lead the league in scoring and be the greatest scorer of all time (all-time PPG leader in RS, PO and Finals).. Therefore, it's a mathematical fact that MJ had the least scoring help of all time.

So when the Bulls won 55 games in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers that could score a lot of points, it was due to the 3-peat caliber of strategy, execution, and mental ability accumulated from winning 3 straight championships.
.

1-9
55 wins
Didnt read anything, im just never going to give u a real reply anymore and hope you waste your time

[3ball]

1-9
55 wins
Didnt read anything, im just never going to give u a real reply anymore and hope you waste your time
cool..2/6 then

which means lebron makes exactly 2 Finals in his entire career if he was in the west.. hey at least he'd be 2-2... oh wait.. that's still only 1/3 of MJ...

and ahem, 39.8% against single-coverage
.

[Hey Yo]

Phil didn't win in 1990 when he took over.

He just continued the direction Collins was going - Phil lost to Pistons in 7 games, after Collins had lost in 6 and 5 games the previous 2 years (1988 and 1989).

That's not to say that the triangle didn't give the role players a more consistent means of being involved... That's true... But this requires tremendous skill and ability of the star players to allow this to happen - the triangle is one of the most complicated offenses of all time.. Nt ANY team can run the triangle..

Infact, almost no team can.. The only teams that ever have, were teams that had MJ, Shaq and Kobe.



The system is nothing without the most dominant post player in the game - i.e. Shaq... MJ... or Kobe/Pau.

And for Jordan, it required him to BUY IN... He had to agree to get his points in different fashion than he was accustomed (even more off-ball than before, and much less breaking the offense to go 1-on-1).
.
I agree that not any team can, but to say that the only teams who succeeded are who had MJ, Shaq and Kobe on it is a no brainer cause Phil's only coached for those 2 franchises. I'm sure there were other past teams who would have thrived also if givin' the chance.

At no time was MJ, Pau or Kobe "the most current dominant post player in the game."

[Smoke117]

1-9
55 wins
Didnt read anything, im just never going to give u a real reply anymore and hope you waste your time

Gotta wonder what you were thinking to even give him one in the first place...and after his Pippen isn't a top 100 player early in this thread. 3ball has no credibility to be worthy to debate with.

[Smoke117]

I agree that not any team can, but to say that the only teams who succeeded are who had MJ, Shaq and Kobe on it is a no brainer cause Phil's only coached for those 2 franchises. I'm sure there were other past teams who would have thrived also if givin' the chance.

At no time was MJ, Pau or Kobe "the most current dominant post player in the game."


I dunno...I think you could legitimately say that about Pau for a period of time. It's not like we've had a lot of great post up players the last 10 years.

[3ball]

I'm sure there were other past teams who would've thrived using the triangle if coached by Phil


Not unless those teams also had top 10 all-time players like MJ, Shaq and Kobe.. That's not a lot of teams.





At no time was MJ, Pau or Kobe "the most current dominant post player in the game."


MJ definitely was, or least top 5... Ditto on Pau...

Bottom line - you need a top 5 post player to run the triangle (shaq, mj, pau), so Lebron could not run it, since he ranks 125th in post PPP and worse in post FG%..

Also, his post up style of pounding the rock doesn't work in the triangle - you have to act super-quick when you catch it on the post - if you slowed it down like Lebron and lolly-gagged, the offense would suck compared to the way MJ did it.

Also, Lebron is a pg-style ball-dominator, which is exactly what the triangle doesn't permit.

[Hey Yo]

Not unless those teams also had top 10 all-time players like MJ, Shaq and Kobe.. That's not a lot of teams.



MJ definitely was, or least top 5... Ditto on Pau...

Bottom line - you need a top 5 post player to run the triangle (shaq, mj, pau), so Lebron could not run it, since he ranks 125th in post PPP and worse in post FG%..

Also, his post up style of pounding the rock doesn't work in the triangle - you have to act super-quick when you catch it on the post - if you slowed it down like Lebron and lolly-gagged, the offense would suck compared to the way MJ did it.

Also, Lebron is a pg-style ball-dominator, which is exactly what the triangle doesn't permit.
Nobody mentioned LeBron and the triangle.

Why bring him up?

[nzahir]

Not unless those teams also had top 10 all-time players like MJ, Shaq and Kobe.. That's not a lot of teams.



MJ definitely was, or least top 5... Ditto on Pau...

Bottom line - you need a top 5 post player to run the triangle (shaq, mj, pau), so Lebron could not run it, since he ranks 125th in post PPP and worse in post FG%..

Also, his post up style of pounding the rock doesn't work in the triangle - you have to act super-quick when you catch it on the post - if you slowed it down like Lebron and lolly-gagged, the offense would suck compared to the way MJ did it.

Also, Lebron is a pg-style ball-dominator, which is exactly what the triangle doesn't permit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ErmRVndzqQ
Once again, I conclude with 1-9 and 55 wins

[3ball]

Nobody mentioned LeBron and the triangle.

Why bring him up?
he's such an easy mark, especially talking about the triangle because that offense is the exact opposite of what suits Lebron's game.

otoh, Klay Thompson would destroy the triangle as a 2nd or 3rd option... so would bosh as a 1-3 option.. their games are perfectly suited for it

and unlike lebron-ball where everyone thinks its so great that everyone is turned play-inishers, the triangle is ADVANCED strategy that allows the role players to remain consistently involved in DECISION-making, similar to Spurs, Warriors, mavs advaned strategy offenses..

This is why MJ's off-ball game was so perfect for the triangle - his off-ball presence was a reservoir for teammates to pass to him and get assists - with a 30 ppg player running arouond off-ball, that makes it easier for role players who are tasked with making plays wthin the triangle (the triangle is similar to the Mavs, Spurs, or Warrior offenses, where EVERYONE makes plays, not just 1 or 2 guys - for role players that aren't used to this, it's way easier to make plays when you have a 30 ppg player running around off-ball)
.

[3ball]

Lebron post-up vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ErmRVndzqQ


http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/post-up/?dir=1&PT=player&OD=offensive

^^^^ That's the NBA's player-tracking stats on post-ups - Lebron posts up 8% of the time, good for 117th in the league..

And you'll see that Lebron isn't even on the first page of rankings - he's on the 2nd and 3rd pages, where he ranks in the 100's in post-up efficiency.



[url]

Once again, I conclude with 1-9 and 55 wins


And I conclude with this:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11599650&postcount=226
.

[Hey Yo]

he's such an easy mark, especially talking about the triangle because that offense is the exact opposite of what suits Lebron's game.

otoh, Klay Thompson would destroy the triangle as a 2nd or 3rd option... so would bosh as a 1-3 option.. their games are perfectly suited for it

and unlike lebron-ball where everyone thinks its so great that everyone is turned play-inishers, the triangle is ADVANCED strategy that allows the role players to remain consistently involved in DECISION-making, similar to Spurs, Warriors, mavs advaned strategy offenses..

This is why MJ's off-ball game was so perfect for the triangle - his off-ball presence was a reservoir for teammates to pass to him and get assists - with a 30 ppg player running arouond off-ball, that makes it easier for role players who are tasked with making plays wthin the triangle (the triangle is similar to the Mavs, Spurs, or Warrior offenses, where EVERYONE makes plays, not just 1 or 2 guys - for role players that aren't used to this, it's way easier to make plays when you have a 30 ppg player running around off-ball)
.
LeBron has never been givin' the option to play in the triangle. You're just heavily speculating that his game would be the same.

MJ was ball dominant before Phil and was less after, due to him buying into getting his lottery pick teammates, Grant and Scottie, more involved on offense.

[3ball]

LeBron has never been givin' the option to play in the triangle. You're just heavily speculating that his game would be the same.


It's not speculation - these are facts:


1) Other than his 24-game stretch at point guard in 1989, MJ never dominated the ball anywhere NEAR as much as starting point guards.

2) Lebron dominates the ball MORE than starting point guards every year - this is a statistical fact, based on the NBA's player-tracking data.

3) The triangle doesn't allow PG-style play - the offense doesn't use a point guard


Conclusion based on above facts: Lebron would not run the triangle without significant struggle (or he wouldn't run it at all and opt to use his patented team-hop move instead).





MJ was ball dominant before Phil and was less after


For you to say MJ was a ball-dominator, is equal to some idiot 15 years from now - who never saw Lebron play - saying he was a mid-range player..

That's how dumb you sound right now saying MJ was a ball-dominator.
.

[LAZERUSS]

Pretty amazing...

Pippen is not even a Top-100 player all-time, and Grant was nothing more than an "11-8 guy"....yet those two took a crappy roster, that had the likes of Paxson and Kerr (two players that 3ball has claimed weren't as good as Cole and Chalmers) to a 55-27 record withOUT Jordan in '94.

Furthermore, those two combined to miss 22 games that season. Think about that...had Pippen and Grant played a full season in '94, they likely would have won 60+ games.

And how huge would that have been? That 55-27 team lost a close (and controversial) seven game series in the ECSF's, to a 56-26 Knicks team. BUT, the Bulls won ALL THREE games on their home court.

Then, the 56-26 Knicks lost a game seven to the 58-24 Rockets by FOUR points, and in fact, outscored the Rockets in that series.

A 60 win Bulls team might well have won the title in '94.


But it gets even better. Jordan returns to a Bulls team that had lost Grant in the off-season. So, Pippen had taken a cast of role players to a 34-31 record by himself (Jordan had losing seasons before Pippen arrived, and with better supporting casts.) By the time the playoffs start, MJ had a solid 17 "exhibition" games under his belt.

So, a completely refreshed MJ, and likely the most healthy player in the '95 post-season, and playing at nearly the same level he had in his '93 run, and considerably better than his '96 run...

took the EXACT SAME ROSTER that the '94 Bulls had, sans the "11-8" Grant, but adding a 20 ppg scorer and solid defender in Ron Harper, ...down the drain in a 4-2 series loss to the Magic in the ECSF's. Oh, and the "11-8" Grant PUMMELED the Bulls in that series, hanging an 18-11 .647, and as Jlip provided, was the ECSF MVP.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357166


Oh, and then the Magic team that pounded MJ's and his Bulls...goes on to a sweeping loss against the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

Since 3ball has claimed that Pippen and Grant were basically garbage...the only rational conclusion...PETE MYERS was the equal of MJ.

Call it "the Pete Myers effect."


Of course, the Bulls knew that they couldn't win another title without an elite PF, so they then ADDED a HOF PF in Rodman, to a roster that had won 55 games (and could have been 60+) withOUT Jordan, and then went on to a second three-peat. Think about this...the '96 Bulls basically replaced only Grant with Rodman...but then added not only MJ, but Harper as well, to a team that had gone 55-27 with just Grant, and that could easily have won 60+ games.

But, as 3ball has educated us all here...MJ took nothing but scrubs to six titles.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Grant was a good PF but not the type the Bulls needed at the time. Rodman complemented that team perfectly. I remember watching parts of a Hardwood Classic game yesterday- Lakers vs Sixers - 2001 and Grant made at least 2-3 dumb plays for a "league veteran." He was an above average PF in his prime but nothing special.

[LAZERUSS]

Grant was a good PF but not the type the Bulls needed at the time. Rodman complemented that team perfectly. I remember watching parts of a Hardwood Classic game yesterday- Lakers vs Sixers - 2001 and Grant made at least 2-3 dumb plays for a "league veteran." He was an above average PF in his prime but nothing special.

Grant was more than just a "good PF"...at least from '90-91 thru '94-95. The Bulls proved that they couldn't win without an elite PF. And aide from being a 14-10 .530 guy in those four years with the Bulls, his offensive IMPACT was much better than "good." He had regular season ORtgs of 126, 132, and then 126 with the Magic, in those five seasons. Then from the '90-91 thru '95-96 post-seasons, he put up ORtgs of 123, 126, 127, 127, 130, and 142...all of which were MILES ahead of Chris Bosh's best post-seasons.

[ImKobe]

He'd be in that Barkley/Stockton/Malone/Robinson tier IMO

elite numbers and maybe a Finals appearance or two as the #1 guy but that's it. Probably 25/8/8 would have been his peak averages if he played on a shitty team with a green light, Lebron/Grant Hill type numbers.

But I think he was better off being a sidekick and getting to experience all those title runs instead of being Michael's competition and never winning one on his own.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, this Paxson who was "not as talented as Cole or Chalmers"...had three straight Finals of 13.4 ppg on an eFG% of .663; 10.3 ppg on an eFG% of .590; and 5.8 ppg on an eFG% of .833.

[LAZERUSS]

And while I have never taken the time to rank Pippen, I suspect that he would be in the 25-35 range all-time. In his peak years with the Bulls he was between a Top-5 to Top-10 player in the league, and finished as high as #3 in the MVP balloting (in a season in which MJ missed.)

[TheMan]

Pretty amazing...

Pippen is not even a Top-100 player all-time, and Grant was nothing more than an "11-8 guy"....yet those two took a crappy roster, that had the likes of Paxson and Kerr (two players that 3ball has claimed weren't as good as Cole and Chalmers) to a 55-27 record withOUT Jordan in '94.

Furthermore, those two combined to miss 22 games that season. Think about that...had Pippen and Grant played a full season in '94, they likely would have won 60+ games.

And how huge would that have been? That 55-27 team lost a close (and controversial) seven game series in the ECSF's, to a 56-26 Knicks team. BUT, the Bulls won ALL THREE games on their home court.

Then, the 56-26 Knicks lost a game seven to the 58-24 Rockets by FOUR points, and in fact, outscored the Rockets in that series.

A 60 win Bulls team might well have won the title in '94.


But it gets even better. Jordan returns to a Bulls team that had lost Grant in the off-season. So, Pippen had taken a cast of role players to a 34-31 record by himself (Jordan had losing seasons before Pippen arrived, and with better supporting casts.) By the time the playoffs start, MJ had a solid 17 "exhibition" games under his belt.

So, a completely refreshed MJ, and likely the most healthy player in the '95 post-season, and playing at nearly the same level he had in his '93 run, and considerably better than his '96 run...

took the EXACT SAME ROSTER that the '94 Bulls had, sans the "11-8" Grant, but adding a 20 ppg scorer and solid defender in Ron Harper, ...down the drain in a 4-2 series loss to the Magic in the ECSF's. Oh, and the "11-8" Grant PUMMELED the Bulls in that series, hanging an 18-11 .647, and as Jlip provided, was the ECSF MVP.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357166


Oh, and then the Magic team that pounded MJ's and his Bulls...goes on to a sweeping loss against the 47-35 Rockets in the Finals.

Since 3ball has claimed that Pippen and Grant were basically garbage...the only rational conclusion...PETE MYERS was the equal of MJ.

Call it "the Pete Myers effect."


Of course, the Bulls knew that they couldn't win another title without an elite PF, so they then ADDED a HOF PF in Rodman, to a roster that had won 55 games (and could have been 60+) withOUT Jordan, and then went on to a second three-peat. Think about this...the '96 Bulls basically replaced only Grant with Rodman...but then added not only MJ, but Harper as well, to a team that had gone 55-27 with just Grant, and that could easily have won 60+ games.

But, as 3ball has educated us all here...MJ took nothing but scrubs to six titles.
You've posted this at least a dozen times before :rolleyes:

BTW, you're the last guy to critisize 3ball, you're exactly like him except you're a Wilt zealot instead of MJ...

[LAZERUSS]

You've posted this at least a dozen times before :rolleyes:

BTW, you're the last guy to critisize 3ball, you're exactly like him except you're a militant stan of Wilt instead of MJ...

I have posted it a dozen times before, and will continue to do so EVERY DAMNED TIME this clown brings up those "scrubs" that MJ was winning rings with.

But let me ask YOU...just how crappy were MJ's teammates in his seven years from '90-91 thru '97-98?

[TheMan]

Grant was a good PF but not the type the Bulls needed at the time. Rodman complemented that team perfectly. I remember watching parts of a Hardwood Classic game yesterday- Lakers vs Sixers - 2001 and Grant made at least 2-3 dumb plays for a "league veteran." He was an above average PF in his prime but nothing special.
Exactly, HoGrant was a very good ROLE player but the way LOOSERUS lies to the younger ISHers here, you'd think he was a top 90s PF on the level of Barkley, Malone...:rolleyes:

LOOSERUS, just put your money where your mouth is, do you rank Horace Grant a top 10 GOAT? Ok that's a stretch, top 25? Nah, honestly I don't...top 50?!?! I never seen him in a top 50 all time list. Top 100??? I've never seen him in one either, WTF. One of the top PFs in the 90s (according to you) can't crack the top 100 NBA all time players? :biggums:

[TheMan]

BTW, this Paxson who was "not as talented as Cole or Chalmers"...had three straight Finals of 13.4 ppg on an eFG% of .663; 10.3 ppg on an eFG% of .590; and 5.8 ppg on an eFG% of .833.
Yeah, while being fed the ball by MJ or Scottie because Pax couln't create his own shot to save his life, you forgot to add that part :rolleyes:

[TheMan]

I have posted it a dozen times before, and will continue to do so EVERY DAMNED TIME this clown brings up those "scrubs" that MJ was winning rings with.

But let me ask YOU...just how crappy were MJ's teammates in his seven years from '90-91 thru '97-98?
Real talk? Pretty good, all time stacked like the 80s elite clubs? Hell no. Relative to competition? There were teams that were at least as talented but the Bulls always had the best player in their series.

Let's break it down...

The first threepeat had the GOAT at his peak, a very good all around wing player in Pippen (top 20 NBA player in the first threepeat) coming into his own and a solid PF who played his role well. The bench wasn't that strong, but solid overall with BJ, Will Perdue, Scott Williams, Stacy King, Trent Tucker, CHodges, BHanson, Cliff Levingston. Like I said, solid role players but not an obvious 6th man candidate in the bunch. Overall, a well oiled machine led by a title hungry MJ but if you want to call them stacked, then I have to say you really don't know what stacked means...

Second threepeat was a more talented team, especially with Rodman and Kukoc. MJ was older, Pippen was becoming injury prone. Kerr was money during the RS but struggled in the postseason for the most part. Longley was serviceable, Brian Williams was a needed spark off the bench but he quickly left the team. Ron Harper, solid defender, could provide some scoring but not close to his Cavs playing days. The rest of the guys like Simpkins, Buechler, Randy Brown, JSalley, Wennington were all pretty much replaceable. In all, the second threepeat team was really good team that were very strong in every area, especially defense...best player in the league, MJ. Best perimeter defender, Pippen. Best 3pt shooter, Kerr. Elite 6th man, Kukoc. Best rebounder, Rodman. Best coach, PJax...yeah, that's a pretty good damn team. But make no mistake, MJ is their best player, without him, they ain't winning shit.

[Indian guy]

Grant was a good PF but not the type the Bulls needed at the time.

Huh? Grant was exactly what the Bulls needed, he just wasn't available. The only reason Bulls even needed a PF who could defend and rebound was because Grant left in '94 and left a gaping hole at that spot. The guy was pretty much the perfect role player. Defend, rebound, spot-up, finish and could even create a little for himself. He was better than 96-98 Rodman and A LOT more valuable to those Bulls teams too. Rodman's impact is ridiculously overblown on that 2nd 3peat team.