Real talk - Muslims Come in..

[sundizz]

I am all for people celebrating their religion. It is the crux of culture, that which binds us to the society around us. Though I'm not particularly religious I believe in "something", be it the Force, etc. My belief ends that this something takes attendance. I live my life in as good and positive a manner as I can each day.

My main, and only question is whether you (as a Muslim) are a live and let live person?

I really am asking because of the negative portrayals etc and I believe that educated people (college educated) of all faiths are pretty much live and let live people.

Or, do you fundamentally believe everyone else is wrong and have some strong internal sort of feeling that the way they (others of a different faith/etc) are living life the wrong way? This goes beyond simple disagreement, but accepting it. I mean do you act/say like it doesn't bother you (for pure living in a society reasons) but inside you actually are strongly opposed to their choice of life?

In case I'm not clear. I do not necessarily agree that we should celebrate LGBT stuff because I consider it a fringe sexual desire. To me, it is similar to the way that some people are into animals, kids, etc. It is deviant behavior. The big HOWEVER, is that it is hurting no one. It is between two consenting adults that have both willingly made this choice. As such, though I feel some sort of way about it I still completely accept it and am happy for those people. However, I'd be lying if I said that if my son was gay I wouldn't be very disappointed initially before fully accepting him for who he is.

No poido, 9empire etc - if they post please disregard it. I'm just trying to see what real, rational, Muslim think.

[imdaman99]

I don't have the right to call another person's religion wrong, especially if they are not harming anyone.

Yes Islam is my religion but I don't necessarily believe you have to be Muslim to end up in heaven. Being a pleasant person means you're already on your way, regardless of your faith. I don't hate any religion, which is why it baffles me that there are e-terrorists on this forum that do nothing but insult my religion. I don't go around bashing another religion (except if you're a branistan, someone who worships Lebron). I don't get bothered by it, because I realize the internet allows enough privacy for even the most ignorant and hateful of people to express their views. I don't come here to get stressed out, I know I didn't join a Fox News forum. But like I said, I don't let it bother me :D it just baffles me :oldlol:

The whole LGBT topic is for another day. I don't know how I'd react if my son turned out to be gay, I doubt I'd be happy about it though.

[brownmamba00]

I don't have anything against the LGBT community...now I'll still be disgusted if say two guys start kissing eachother in front of me in public but I won't be making noise and start harassing those people:lol

but hey if 2 guys want to come together and start up a family go ahead...just don't like the whole gay parade shit that comes along with it, it's childish and retarded imo but whatever.

as far as people with other beliefs go, the Islamic holy book tells muslims to show kindness to the people of the ''book'' (bible and torah) as they could meet them in heaven in the after life.

[UK2K]

I don't have anything against the LGBT community...now I'll still be disgusted if say two guys start kissing eachother in front of me in public but I won't be making noise and start harassing those people:lol

but hey if 2 guys want to come together and start up a family go ahead...just don't like the whole gay parade shit that comes along with it, it's childish and retarded imo but whatever.

as far as people with other beliefs go, the Islamic holy book tells muslims to show kindness to the people of the ''book'' (bible and torah) as they could meet them in heaven in the after life.

Im the exact way. Im all for gay marriage, marry whoever you want (be it a dude, a chick, or two dudes, or 10 chicks).

But dont be walking down the street slapping each other with dildos. All it does it make me resent you, and not support the reason for your march.

[BigNBAfan]

I don't have anything against the LGBT community...now I'll still be disgusted if say two guys start kissing eachother in front of me in public but I won't be making noise and start harassing those people:lol

but hey if 2 guys want to come together and start up a family go ahead...just don't like the whole gay parade shit that comes along with it, it's childish and retarded imo but whatever.

as far as people with other beliefs go, the Islamic holy book tells muslims to show kindness to the people of the ''book'' (bible and torah) as they could meet them in heaven in the after life.

But what if they want to adopt a child or bring in a child into the world via IVF? Are you for/against/neural then?

[Bosnian Sajo]

Live and let live is the way to go, you said it in the op. Don't bother me, I won't bother you. Do I think my religion is correct? Of course, why else would I choose to be apart of it? But I'm not gonna go around telling people their religion is wrong, it is not my place. At the same time, if someone was interested in my faith, and me talking about it helped them become apart of my religion, well then I'll be rewarded for that inshallah.

[Bosnian Sajo]

But what if they want to adopt a child or bring in a child into the world via IVF? Are you for/against/neural then?

If you are gay you cannot be Muslim, so of course it is going to be frowned upon by the people following the religion. What mamba is saying is that he is tolerant of LGBT, which is a whole other thing. It is PC to be tolerant towards gay people, treat them like humans, in that regards yes to answer your question. Do we think it is right? No, and it isn't apart of our community, so there are no problems. Now if a gay dude wanted to come inside the mosque and pray then yes I'd have a problem with it, just like I assume mamba and imdaman would as well. It's blasphemous.

[brownmamba00]

Im the exact way. Im all for gay marriage, marry whoever you want (be it a dude, a chick, or two dudes, or 10 chicks).

But dont be walking down the street slapping each other with dildos. All it does it make me resent you, and not support the reason for your march.

yeah it differs from people to people really if you're humble and friendly there would be no reason for me to resent you.

You have two kind of gay people imo...you have homosexuals and you have **** if you know what I mean.


But what if they want to adopt a child or bring in a child into the world via IVF? Are you for/against/neural then?


If they're saving some poor kid in Africa from starvation or some type of shit I would be for it.

or those bulgarian orphanages they show on tv

[UK2K]

yeah it differs from people to people really if you're humble and friendly there would be no reason for me to resent you.

You have two kind of gay people imo...you have homosexuals and you have **** if you know what I mean.



If they're saving some poor kid in Africa from starvation or some type of shit I would be for it.

or those bulgarian orphanages they show on tv

Two kinds of whites, two kinds of blacks, two kinds of Muslims, two kinds of Hispanics.....

[UK2K]

If you are gay you cannot be Muslim, so of course it is going to be frowned upon by the people following the religion. What mamba is saying is that he is tolerant of LGBT, which is a whole other thing. It is PC to be tolerant towards gay people, treat them like humans, in that regards yes to answer your question. Do we think it is right? No, and it isn't apart of our community, so there are no problems. Now if a gay dude wanted to come inside the mosque and pray then yes I'd have a problem with it, just like I assume mamba and imdaman would as well. It's blasphemous.

You can, you'll just be thrown from a rooftop when others find out.

[Bosnian Sajo]

You can, you'll just be thrown from a rooftop when others find out.

No you can't, because it is a complete contradiction of the faith. You could do everything a Muslim does and be gay, it'd just have to be a new religion all together that's not Islam.

[brownmamba00]

If you are gay you cannot be Muslim, so of course it is going to be frowned upon by the people following the religion. What mamba is saying is that he is tolerant of LGBT, which is a whole other thing. It is PC to be tolerant towards gay people, treat them like humans, in that regards yes to answer your question. Do we think it is right? No, and it isn't apart of our community, so there are no problems. Now if a gay dude wanted to come inside the mosque and pray then yes I'd have a problem with it, just like I assume mamba and imdaman would as well. It's blasphemous.

I don't know man if he comes off as a decent and modest dude I don't think he'd get kicked out after all how would you know he's gay?

And I agree with you on the community part.

[sundizz]

Okay good to know. It seems that the problem then not is religion, but rather that there are still a lot of uneducated people running around in the world.

Almost every reasonably well educated person I've met of any faith seems to be fairly tolerant of the differences between people. Being tolerant doesn't mean approving or liking, but rather relishing the short time we have here and knowing that live and let live is the only way billions of people can co-exist peacefully.

Come to think of it I had some fairly funny thoughts about Mormons up until last year (I never knew any personally). Then, during my internship there were 8 Mormom guys that were at the same firm doing the internship. I've never met such nice, strong valued, good people. None of them pushed their ways on me at all and talked candidly about their missions to other countries etc. They just value their way of life and don't hate on what other people do. Was cool to see a bunch of 20-25 year olds that don't feel the need to use social media like crazy, drink/smoke to have a good time, and are close with their families and want to get married/start families at a younger age. Also, seems like almost all Mormons legitimately love bball - both watching and playing.

[Bosnian Sajo]

I don't know man if he comes off as a decent and modest dude I don't think he'd get kicked out after all how would you know he's gay?

And I agree with you on the community part.

Well that's what we are talking about, if the person was gay. Of course there might be people who go to mosque who are secretly gay, but that person would be a Munafiq if you are familiar with that term.

[navy]

No you can't, because it is a complete contradiction of the faith. You could do everything a Muslim does and be gay, it'd just have to be a new religion all together that's not Islam.
This isnt true. The reality is there are very few people who follow the rules of any religion completely in all facets. And for good reason I might add.

People pick and choose all the time. Case in point, gay muslims do exist. Whether you want to acknowledge them or not.

Who are you to decide which rules are must follow, and which arent.

[Bosnian Sajo]

This isnt true. The reality is there are very few people who follow the rules of any religion completely in all facets. And for good reason I might add.

People pick and choose all the time. Case in point, gay muslims do exist. Whether you want to acknowledge them or not.

Who are you to decide which rules are must follow, and which arent.


I don't, it is chosen for us. Farz are the rules you must follow to be a muslim and stay intact with your iman, and sunnet are rules you should follow but aren't obligated for and won't be punished for not doing.

You're right about pick and choosing, but that is because we are granted the option to do that for some things. For others, we are not. You cannot be gay and muslim, it is impossible.

[DonDadda59]

Interesting to read about Muslims' views on gays. Now is it a cultural thing or is it expressly written in your scriptures that gays can't be Muslims? I know the OT expressly forbids homosexuality, but the NT doesn't yet many Christians use their religion to justify their homophobia.

[navy]

I don't, it is chosen for us. Farz are the rules you must follow to be a muslim and stay intact with your iman, and sunnet are rules you should follow but aren't obligated for and won't be punished for not doing.

You're right about pick and choosing, but that is because we are granted the option to do that for some things. For others, we are not. You cannot be gay and muslim, it is impossible.
Chosen by who? People will always put their own personal spin on any religion. That's just the way people are. Can you confidently all people who identify as muslim follow all the Farz? Do you really think they will be identified by most or even themselves as not being muslim?

It cant be impossible. These individuals quite literally exist.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Interesting to read about Muslims' views on gays. Now is it a cultural thing or is it expressly written in your scriptures that gays can't be Muslims? I know the OT expressly forbids homosexuality, but the NT doesn't yet many Christians use their religion to justify their homophobia.

Pretty sure there is a story in the Quran (Might be a hadith? not 100%) about how Allah s.w.t destroyed an entire civilization because dudes were bumpin jimmys.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Chosen by who? People will always put their own personal spin on any religion. That's just the way people are. Can you confidently all people who identify as muslim follow all the Farz? Do you really think they will be identified by most or even themselves as not being muslim?

It cant be impossible. These individuals quite literally exist.


Chosen by god...

And sure, there are some individuals who are gay and say they are Muslim, but those people are Munafiqs. Just like you can say you are Muslim, but if you don't pay zikr (farz) then you too are a munafiq. Simple as that.

[DonDadda59]

Pretty sure there is a story in the Quran (Might be a hadith? not 100%) about how Allah s.w.t destroyed an entire civilization because dudes were bumpin jimmys.

So like Sodom and Gomorrah?

I don't have a Q'uran handy... any link to the passage(s)?

[brownmamba00]

You can, you'll just be thrown from a rooftop when others find out.
what people don't know is that the last Muslim Caliphate, the Ottoman Empire who was ruled by Sharia law was actually one of the first governments that decriminalized homosexuality all the way back in 1858.

so you shouldn't listen too much to the Salafists.

[Bosnian Sajo]

So like Sodom and Gomorrah?

I don't have a Q'uran handy... any link to the passage(s)?

Exactly, and I found a link but it is best to read it straight from the Quran which isn't possible for you unless you go to a mosque or buy a Quran (if you were to do this, pm me so I can make sure you buy the one true version, for if anything in the Quran is changed by man it is considered invalid).

The story of Lot
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1872/story-of-lot-part-1/

[sundizz]

All those terms you are using are unfamiliar with me (not Muslim).

So, in the Quran there are some MUST rules to be called a real Muslim? And some should rules? What are the must rules? In your opinion do most of the people that label themselves Muslim follow these rules?

[BigNBAfan]

Exactly, and I found a link but it is best to read it straight from the Quran which isn't possible for you unless you go to a mosque or buy a Quran (if you were to do this, pm me so I can make sure you buy the one true version, for if anything in the Quran is changed by man it is considered invalid).

The story of Lot
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1872/story-of-lot-part-1/

If this is the case, please give me YOUR interpretation of this:


And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing...
Quran (2:191-193)

[Bosnian Sajo]

All those terms you are using are unfamiliar with me (not Muslim).

So, in the Quran there are some MUST rules to be called a real Muslim? And some should rules? What are the must rules? In your opinion do most of the people that label themselves Muslim follow these rules?


Farz
pray 5 times a day
fast ramadan
pilgrimage to hajj at least once
pay zakah (I believe it is somewhere around 2% to the needy)
iman (faith)

No, most people do not follow all the rules perfectly, but as you know humans are imperfect. Islam is perfect, humans are not. Asking god for mercy when you do pray and you may be spared, because Allah s.w.t is the most merciful. But do what upsets him in this life, and you will be punished in the worst way imaginable, for there is no wrath like that of Allah s.w.t's.

[Bosnian Sajo]

If this is the case, please give me YOUR interpretation of this:


Quran (2:191-193)

Did you find that in the link I provided? Or is that from somewhere else?it's from somewhere else...I'm not trying to get it in with you dudes from the otc mhc today, OP is genuinly interested and I'll gladly cooperate, but not with you boring **** ****** trying to argue and shit.

[sundizz]

So being gay is not part of the Farz, or is it like a subtopic under faith or one of the other ones listed??

[BigNBAfan]

Did you find that in the link I provided? Or is that from somewhere else?it's from somewhere else...I'm not trying to get it in with you dudes from the otc mhc today, OP is genuinly interested and I'll gladly cooperate, but not with you boring **** ****** trying to argue and shit.


I'm not even looking to express my opinion, i'll give you the stage to explain it or else i'll just have to go off of my interpretation of it.

[Bosnian Sajo]

So being gay is not part of the Farz, or is it like a subtopic under faith or one of the other ones listed??


Farz are the do's, if you're looking for the don't then that would fall under Haram (sin).

[Bosnian Sajo]

I'm not even looking to express my opinion, i'll give you the stage to explain it or else i'll just have to go off of my interpretation of it.

Do what you gotta do

[brownmamba00]

I'm not even looking to express my opinion, i'll give you the stage to explain it or else i'll just have to go off of my interpretation of it.
**** You

[BigNBAfan]

Do what you gotta do



Sounds good, i'll leave parts of the actual quran and someones interpretation here if anyones interested... I'd be much more interested in how a muslim interprets these but obviously they dont want to because they dont want to admit to the violence their leader wants from them?

[QUOTE]Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah

[BigNBAfan]

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. Verse 9:33 tells Muslims that Allah has charted them to make Islam "superior over all religions." This chapter was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that unbelievers are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

Quran (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme." How does the Quran define a true believer?

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction." (Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

Quran (18:65-81) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with "special knowledge" who does things which don't seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would "grieve" his parents by "disobedience and ingratitude." He was killed so that Allah could provide them a 'better' son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2).)
Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter." This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered "merciless" and "horrible murder" in other translations) against three groups: Hypocrites (Muslims who refuse to "fight in the way of Allah" (3:167) and hence don't act as Muslims should), those with "diseased hearts" (which include Jews and Christians 5:51-52), and "alarmists" or "agitators who include those who merely speak out against Islam, according to Muhammad's biographers. It is worth noting that the victims are to be sought out by Muslims, which is what today's terrorists do. If this passage is meant merely to apply to the city of Medina, then it is unclear why it is included in Allah's eternal word to Muslim generations.

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost." Those who reject Allah are to be killed in Jihad. The wounded are to be held captive for ransom. The only reason Allah doesn't do the dirty work himself is to to test the faithfulness of Muslims. Those who kill pass the test.



more...

[BigNBAfan]

last of it

[QUOTE]Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"

Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted? This verse also says that those who do not fight will suffer torment in hell.

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. This verse tells Muslims that there are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status. Also the word used for 'hard' or 'ruthless' in this verse shares the same root as the word translated as 'painful' or severe' to describe Hell in over 25 other verses including 65:10, 40:46 and 50:26..

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed! The verse explicitly refers to "battle array" meaning that it is speaking of physical conflict. This is followed by (61:9): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist." (See next verse, below). Infidels who resist Islamic rule are to be fought.

Quran (61:10-12) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of 'Adn - Eternity ['Adn (Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success." This verse refers to physical battle in order to make Islam victorious over other religions (see above). It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.

Other verses calling Muslims to Jihad can be found here at AnsweringIslam.org


From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.

Bukhari (52:65) - The Prophet said, 'He who fights that Allah's Word, Islam, should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause. Muhammad's words are the basis for offensive Jihad - spreading Islam by force. This is how it was understood by his companions, and by the terrorists of today.

Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)

Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

Bukhari (52:73) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords'."

Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."

Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."

Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"

Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite.'"

Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."

Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."

Bukhari 1:35 "The person who participates in (Holy Battles) in Allah

[Bosnian Sajo]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-aapSixaNgpE/VP23wGp_C1I/AAAAAAAAGFU/BqYeV1kfEKw/s1600/nitpicker.gif

[Trollsmasher]

not a single true muslim in the thread so far

weak minded kafirs

special place in hell is reserved for you

[poido123]

And those verses are at the core problem with Islam today. Many followers have taken to destroying the non believers any means possible whether that be by deception, infiltration, breeding out western countries, or worldwide execution in the form of ISIS.

It's sad the Muslims here will only deal with the easy stuff here and not properly address the core issues of their religion.

Again, they go ghost mode when the questions get too tough:rolleyes:

[sundizz]

Well, the thread went pretty far without being derailed by the haters.

As with most religions, any educated person doesn't really act on the stuff written down in any sort of literal way. Rather, they choose it as a template to live their lives in a positive manner.

Only extremists, anti-xyz religion haters, or uneducated people take it literally and use it as either a must do or must hate.

If the Muslims in here would like to ignore the other posts I got a few more questions:

-So, there are the absolute must Do's (Farz) and there are the absolute must Don't (Haram). What are the ones stated for Haram? I'm just trying to understand what makes someone a Muslim and what makes someone a "Muslim".

How are the people that aren't truly Muslim (by the definitions) above treated in America/England and in other parts of the world? In Christianity for example, it seems that most Christians are pretty forgiving/turn a blind eye to people that call themselves Christian but party, drink, fornicate, etc. Is it the same with Islam?

[poido123]

Well, the thread went pretty far without being derailed by the haters.

As with most religions, any educated person doesn't really act on the stuff written down in any sort of literal way. Rather, they choose it as a template to live their lives in a positive manner.

Only extremists, anti-xyz religion haters, or uneducated people take it literally and use it as either a must do or must hate.

If the Muslims in here would like to ignore the other posts I got a few more questions:

-So, there are the absolute must Do's (Farz) and there are the absolute must Don't (Haram). What are the ones stated for Haram? I'm just trying to understand what makes someone a Muslim and what makes someone a "Muslim".

How are the people that aren't truly Muslim (by the definitions) above treated in America/England and in other parts of the world? In Christianity for example, it seems that most Christians are pretty forgiving/turn a blind eye to people that call themselves Christian but party, drink, fornicate, etc. Is it the same with Islam?


You can't have a debate if two sides of the story aren't out.

They are verses from the Quran which many Muslims act upon today. It's not even conjecture, it's fact.

Those questions that you ask about Christians, th

[Droid101]

last of it
Durrrr

[quote=The Bible]1 Samuel said to Saul,

[poido123]

Durrrr



Care to explain? I'm just going to leave this interpretation up to others doe.



And how many Christians do you see acting out any of those extreme verses?


It's a cultural/Islamic thing. Many Islamic societies have not grown out of their medieval style ways and progressed into a civilised society.


Which is why you can't have fundamentalist Muslims living in a western society because they clash on all free speech/thinking levels.

[nba_55]

I don't, it is chosen for us. Farz are the rules you must follow to be a muslim and stay intact with your iman, and sunnet are rules you should follow but aren't obligated for and won't be punished for not doing.

You're right about pick and choosing, but that is because we are granted the option to do that for some things. For others, we are not. You cannot be gay and muslim, it is impossible.

Does the religion assume homosexuality is a choice? Because all the evidences show that it's not. So, if someone is born gay, he has no chance of being a muslim? Or if he is gay, but doesn't have sexual activites with other men, he can still be muslim?

[Droid101]

And how many Christians do you see acting out any of those extreme verses?

Lots of them in Africa. In fact, they exterminate gay people all over Africa in the name of Christian God.

Just because it doesn't get news doesn't mean it isn't happening.

[poido123]

Lots of them in Africa. In fact, they exterminate gay people all over Africa in the name of Christian God.

Just because it doesn't get news doesn't mean it isn't happening.


You're pointing at a drop in the ocean, compared to a worldwide problem in Islamic culture?

Aside from some extreme nut jobs in africa(blacks there are very unstable), there isn't really that much you can point a figure at.

I know statistically that more Muslims radicalise per person than Christians. That isn't even debatable.

The core reason why there's an Islamic radicalism happening worldwide is because the communities are interpreting all of the Quran and following it to a tee, like if Christians were still locked into the old ways of the bible and following it word for word.

Difference is, Christian society has progressed for the most part. However large parts of Muslim society have not.

[NumberSix]

Lots of them in Africa. In fact, they exterminate gay people all over Africa in the name of Christian God.

Just because it doesn't get news doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Where are the verses in the bible that compels believers to kill gays? :confusedshrug:

We all understand that in the bible homosexuality is a sin..... but so are a lot of other things. I'm not aware of any bible verses where this particular sin requires a death penalty. Maybe there is. I don't know. I'm not an expert.

[poido123]

Their are people in America
that think the bible is literal.


There are people in America who have sex with cars.

You're missing the point on a conclusive sample size..

[DonDadda59]

Where are the verses in the bible that compels believers to kill gays? :confusedshrug:

We all understand that in the bible homosexuality is a sin..... but so are a lot of other things. I'm not aware of any bible verses where this particular sin requires a death penalty. Maybe there is. I don't know. I'm not an expert.

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

-Leviticus 20:13

[Patrick Chewing]

If you are gay you cannot be Muslim, so of course it is going to be frowned upon by the people following the religion. What mamba is saying is that he is tolerant of LGBT, which is a whole other thing. It is PC to be tolerant towards gay people, treat them like humans, in that regards yes to answer your question. Do we think it is right? No, and it isn't apart of our community, so there are no problems. Now if a gay dude wanted to come inside the mosque and pray then yes I'd have a problem with it, just like I assume mamba and imdaman would as well. It's blasphemous.


Oh how very intolerant. So Christians are getting shit in the media, and here is a Muslim admitting what we already knew, that gay people flat out do not exist in the Muslim world. Islam will lose against the Gay Mafia just like Christianity did.

This type of primitive thinking has no place in today's modern society. If we have to deal with gay people, then so do you.

[DonDadda59]

[QUOTE=poido123]You can't have a debate if two sides of the story aren't out.

They are verses from the Quran which many Muslims act upon today. It's not even conjecture, it's fact.

Those questions that you ask about Christians, th

[Bosnian Sajo]

Oh how very intolerant. So Christians are getting shit in the media, and here is a Muslim admitting what we already knew, that gay people flat out do not exist in the Muslim world. Islam will lose against the Gay Mafia just like Christianity did.

This time of primitive thinking has no place in today's modern society. If we have to deal with gay people, then so do you.

I do deal with it, I have gay customers who come into my store everyday and I great them with a smile and small talk. Should I get down on my knees and blow their brains away?

I'm not saying they don't exist in the Muslim world moron, I am saying to you that you cannot be a Muslim if you are gay. If there is a gay muslim, that person is a Munafiq, not a Muslim.

Mun-a-fiq:
Munafiq. In Islam, a munāfiq (n., in Arabic: منافق, plural munāfiqūn) is a hypocrite who outwardly practices Islam while inwardly concealing his disbelief (kufr), perhaps even unknowingly. The hypocrisy itself is called nifāq (Arabic: نفاق‎).

[Patrick Chewing]

I do deal with it, I have gay customers who come into my store everyday and I great them with a smile and small talk. Should I get down on my knees and blow their brains away?

I'm not saying they don't exist in the Muslim world moron, I am saying to you that you cannot be a Muslim if you are gay. If there is a gay muslim, that person is a Munafiq, not a Muslim.

Mun-a-fiq:
Munafiq. In Islam, a munāfiq (n., in Arabic: منافق, plural munāfiqūn) is a hypocrite who outwardly practices Islam while inwardly concealing his disbelief (kufr), perhaps even unknowingly. The hypocrisy itself is called nifāq (Arabic: نفاق‎).


I'm telling you, you can no longer think like this. What country do you live in?

If the United States accepts Bruce Jenner as a woman now and if there are gay Christians getting married in Christian churches, then Islam will be the next major religion to fall to the Gay Mafia and be scrutinized for their primitive belief system. If Christians have to accept gay people, then so does Islam.

This is the type of intolerance that is giving Islam a bad name. You are speaking for God if you say gay people cannot be Muslim and no one speaks for God.

[poido123]

Christians today are fugazis and the GOD of the bible gets angrier and angrier everyday they don't follow his edicts. You are commanded to stone to death blasphemers, adulteress women, homosexuals, and unruly children. One thing you can say about the Muslim extremists- they are the real deal. If their GOD exists (and he doesn't), they will be dining in paradise for eternity while the half-stepping, pick and choose buffet, one day a week 'believers' are roasting in Hades.



A book which derives an outlook dating back over 2000 years ago. Christians understand that the world today deal with justice and life differently.

Fundamentalist Muslims are brainwashed mutha fckers

[Bosnian Sajo]

Christians today are fugazis and the GOD of the bible gets angrier and angrier everyday they don't follow his edicts. You are commanded to stone to death blasphemers, adulteress women, homosexuals, and unruly children. One thing you can say about the Muslim extremists- they are the real deal. If their GOD exists (and he doesn't), they will be dining in paradise for eternity while the half-stepping, pick and choose buffet, one day a week 'believers' are roasting in Hades.


If you consider IS Muslim extremists, then no, and you have learned nothing from Lurking/casually discussing the many Muslim threads (those with us posting of course, not talking about 9er/chewing/etc.).

But if you consider a Muslim extremist as the man who prays 5 times a day, everyday; fasts each and every Ramadan while going the extra mile during the month; being apart of hajj at least once in his life; Paying zakah each and every year, making sure it goes into the right hands; TRULY believing in the following:

Amantu billahi ( To believe in Allah ) wa malaikatihi ( To believe in His angels ) wa kutubihi ( To believe in His books ) wa rusulihi ( To believe in His prophets ) wal-yawmil-akhiri ( To believe the Day of Judgment;life after death ) wa bil-qadari khayrihi wa sharrihi minallahi taala ( To believe in destiny (qadar), that the good and the evil are from Allah. ) ashhadu an la ilaha illallah wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluh. ( I witness that there is no god but Allah and I witness that Hazrat Muhammad is his slave and messenger. ).


...then yes, you're right.

[Bosnian Sajo]

This is the type of intolerance that is giving Islam a bad name. You are speaking for God if you say gay people cannot be Muslim and no one speaks for God.

I didn't say gay people cannot be Muslim, I said you cannot be gay and Muslim.

Get it through your thick skull Patrick, you weren't sent down here to reform Islam. Not happening, *****.

[Droid101]

lol gay mafia.

Chewing sounds exactly like a repressed gay. You know he's taking it from a big ol' hairy bear on the regular.

[Bosnian Sajo]

lol gay mafia.

Chewing sounds exactly like a repressed gay. You know he's taking it from a big ol' hairy bear on the regular.

I imagine a bunch of dudes with dildo guns and fuzzy cuffs :lol

[nba_55]

A book which derives an outlook dating back over 2000 years ago. Christians understand that the world today deal with justice and life differently.

Fundamentalist Muslims are brainwashed mutha fckers

I see you hating on the whole muslim community in different threads. Why are you attacking all of them when it's clear that not all of them are intolerant? Most of them accept that the world today deal with justice and life differently.

[BigNBAfan]

Durrrr



Care to explain? I'm just going to leave this interpretation up to others doe.

?? Wtf, i dont believe in the bible... why should i explain?

[poido123]

I didn't say gay people cannot be Muslim, I said you cannot be gay and Muslim.

Get it through your thick skull Patrick, you weren't sent down here to reform Islam. Not happening, *****.


Yes, a gay man can be Muslim. Gay men don't choose to be gay, it is incredibly hypocritical of you to do so, when you expect other races/religions to be acceptant of Muslim poor human rights and behaviour throughout the world.

[DonDadda59]

A book which derives an outlook dating back over 2000 years ago. Christians understand that the world today deal with justice and life differently.

Fundamentalist Muslims are brainwashed mutha fckers

You don't get to put an expiration date on GOD's eternal law. If he commanded you to stone to death blasphemers and adulteress women 6,000 years ago, the order still stands today.


If you consider IS Muslim extremists, then no, and you have learned nothing from Lurking/casually discussing the many Muslim threads (those with us posting of course, not talking about 9er/chewing/etc.).

But if you consider a Muslim extremist as the man who prays 5 times a day, everyday; fasts each and every Ramadan while going the extra mile during the month; being apart of hajj at least once in his life; Paying zakah each and every year, making sure it goes into the right hands; TRULY believing in the following:

Amantu billahi ( To believe in Allah ) wa malaikatihi ( To believe in His angels ) wa kutubihi ( To believe in His books ) wa rusulihi ( To believe in His prophets ) wal-yawmil-akhiri ( To believe the Day of Judgment;life after death ) wa bil-qadari khayrihi wa sharrihi minallahi taala ( To believe in destiny (qadar), that the good and the evil are from Allah. ) ashhadu an la ilaha illallah wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluh. ( I witness that there is no god but Allah and I witness that Hazrat Muhammad is his slave and messenger. ).


...then yes, you're right.

That's all and well but there are clear, not open to interpretation edicts wherein Allah commands his followers to kill infidels... same as Yahweh commands his followers to do (only difference seems to be that Allah prefers beheadings whereas Yahweh is a Stones fan).

You and I may not support such an act... but it is a divinely inspired and pious act according to the Holy books.

Which is why it's hilarious to me that certain people don't want a separation of Church and State but favor a Theocracy instead. Take a long hard look at ISIS because that's what it looks like when a political/state system actually carries out what the religious texts command. :lol

[Bosnian Sajo]

Yes, a gay man can be Muslim. Gay men don't choose to be gay, it is incredibly hypocritical of you to do so, when you expect other races/religions to be acceptant of Muslim poor human rights and behaviour throughout the world.

You're typing too quick. I'm going to get something to eat, edit and clean this shit up by the time I get back if you ever expect to continue this conversation, Poidiot.

[poido123]

I see you hating on the whole muslim community in different threads. Why are you attacking all of them when it's clear that not all of them are intolerant? Most of them accept that the world today deal with justice and life differently.


The "moderate Muslims" harbor the extreme element in their religion. More needs to be done about the fundamentalists who promote sharia law and all that it brings.

Until necessary change and progress takes place, who else can they blame but themselves? They have done very little to stamp out fundamentalism in islam.


They do that, they reach the point that all other religions have got to for the most part.


The Muslims on this site have the wrong attitude. They think the problem lies with everyone else.

[RidonKs]

lovely thread sundizz, i dig the framing of your primary question, since that's what matters

[Bosnian Sajo]

You don't get to put an expiration date on GOD's eternal law. If he commanded you to stone to death blasphemers and adulteress women 6,000 years ago, the order still stands today.



That's all and well but there are clear, not open to interpretation edicts wherein Allah commands his followers to kill infidels... same as Yahweh commands his followers to do the same exact thing (only difference seems to be that Allah prefers beheadings whereas Yahweh is a Stones fan).

You and I may not support such an act... but it is a divinely inspired and pious act according to the Holy books.

Which is why it's hilarious to me that certain people don't want a separation of Church and State but favor a Theocracy instead. Take a long hard look at ISIS because that's what it looks like when a political/state system actually carries out what the religious texts command. :lol

Those texts are taken out of context. I mean think, why hasn't anyone at my mosque (200+ people at friday prayer, minimum) killed an "infidel" yet? Btw, wtf is an infidel? The only people who ever use that word seems to be white people and politicians, I've never heard my Imam utter that word.

I cannot explain you the Quran piece by piece because it would take a lifetime, only you can open up the book and see truly what is inside. Or you can keep nitpicking like poidio, but that'll get you no where.

[Akrazotile]

You don't get to put an expiration date on GOD's eternal law. If he commanded you to stone to death blasphemers and adulteress women 6,000 years ago, the order still stands today.



That's all and well but there are clear, not open to interpretation edicts wherein Allah commands his followers to kill infidels... same as Yahweh commands his followers to do (only difference seems to be that Allah prefers beheadings whereas Yahweh is a Stones fan).

You and I may not support such an act... but it is a divinely inspired and pious act according to the Holy books.

Which is why it's hilarious to me that certain people don't want a separation of Church and State but favor a Theocracy instead. Take a long hard look at ISIS because that's what it looks like when a political/state system actually carries out what the religious texts command. :lol

Well a lot of church =/= state advocates want an institution of Arbitrary Liberal Morals and State. Which is kind of hypocritical since liberal morals have no more basis in science and evolution than do judeo-christian teachings.

But people rally around Arbitrary Liberal Morals and those on the tv who preach them just as others do around theistic religious teachings. Liberalism basically IS a religion. It operates EXACTLY like one on a social level.



I mean I'd be okay with separating the state from moralist judgement-call politics like telling business whom they can hire. Especially when we dont even enforce it uniformly. Microsoft will get killed if they dont visibly employ x amount of women, but Hooters can turn away fruity male apllicants who wanna wear leggings and a low cut? Wheres the "equality"?


Most liberals love all the government coerced morality and "equality". Like how all states have to recognize gay marriage. So if you want church and state separate, surely you want state and Arbitrary Liberal Morals separate. Otherwise it looks kinda disingenuous.

Wouldnt u say?

[poido123]

Those texts are taken out of context. I mean think, why hasn't anyone at my mosque (200+ people at friday prayer, minimum) killed an "infidel" yet? Btw, wtf is an infidel? The only people who ever use that word seems to be white people and politicians, I've never heard my Imam utter that word.

I cannot explain you the Quran piece by piece because it would take a lifetime, only you can open up the book and see truly what is inside. Or you can keep nitpicking like poidio, but that'll get you no where.


Taqiyaa exhibited here? It doesn't happen at my mosque, therefore...?

Mosques here in australia have found isis recruiters, one guy on Americas most wanted list openly recruiting inside a mosque. There have been accounts of "visitors" attending a woman only night in a mosque and being labeled the kafir and dimmi just to make his presence feel unwelcome.

There are good Muslims, I have an Iranian friend in my basketball team and good friends with a Lebanese family. I take issue with the fundamentalist Muslims, the ones who want sharia law and are clearly fcked in the head. These are the type who are presently causing major political issues here in my country.

[Akrazotile]

Those texts are taken out of context. I mean think, why hasn't anyone at my mosque (200+ people at friday prayer, minimum) killed an "infidel" yet? Btw, wtf is an infidel? The only people who ever use that word seems to be white people and politicians, I've never heard my Imam utter that word.

I cannot explain you the Quran piece by piece because it would take a lifetime, only you can open up the book and see truly what is inside. Or you can keep nitpicking like poidio, but that'll get you no where.


You purposely interpret them out of context. Which is fine. I'm not your thought police. Thats your prerogative.

But at least cop to the fact theyre straightforward and you choose to view them in a different way personally. Others do take them literally and thats what causes problems.

Hiding behind "out of context" doesnt give you any credibility.

[Bosnian Sajo]

There are good Muslims, I have an Iranian friend in my basketball team and good friends with a Lebanese family. I take issue with the fundamentalist Muslims, the ones who want sharia law and are clearly fcked in the head. These are the type who are presently causing major political issues here in my country.

So then why do you try to give us Muslims here on ISH a hard time? Do you see us as the bad ones?

[Bosnian Sajo]

You purposely interpret them out of context. Which is fine. I'm not your thought police. Thats your prerogative.

But at least cop to the fact theyre straightforward and you choose to view them in a different way personally. Others do take them literally and thats what causes problems.

Hiding behind "out of context" doesnt give you any credibility.

Talking about something you've never opened up yourself gives you even less credibility, I'm afraid.

You won't catch me talking about the Torah, cause I'm not familiar with it.

[DonDadda59]

Those texts are taken out of context. I mean think, why hasn't anyone at my mosque (200+ people at friday prayer, minimum) killed an "infidel" yet?

Because the 200+ people at your mosque gloss over the less desirable edicts of Allah while those who don't gloss over those passages have started a massive movement that is sweeping through the Middle East as I type this. Whether or not you want to acknowledge it, you want to claim it's 'taken out of context'... there are people who read it and take it literally.



Btw, wtf is an infidel? The only people who ever use that word seems to be white people and politicians, I've never heard my Imam utter that word.

I honestly don't know what the official Q'uran term is for it, but a non-believer(s).


Well a lot of those people want an institution of Arbitrary Liberal Morals and State. Which is kind of hypocritical since liberal morals have no more basis in science and evolution than to judeo-christian teachings.

But people rally around Arbitrary Liberal Morals and those preach them just as others do around theistic religious teachings. Liberalism basically IS a religion. It operates EXACTLY like one on a social level.



I mean I'd be okay with separating the state from moralist judgement-call politics like telling business whom they can hire. Especially when we dont even enforce it uniformly. Microsoft will get killed if they dont visibly employe x amount of women, but Hooters can turn away fruity male apllicants who wanna wear leggings and a low cut?


Most liberals love all the government coerced morality and equality. Like how all states have to recognize gay marrie. So if you want church and state separate, surely you want state and Arbitrary Liberal Morals separate. Otherwise it looks kinda disingenuous.

Wouldnt u say?

This post is all over the place, can I get the bullet points on the points being attempted? :confusedshrug:

[9erempiree]

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

http://img.memecdn.com/Gay-Muslim_o_106443.jpg
http://conservativepapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Gay-Muslim.jpg
http://www.gaylaxymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/GayMuslimsExist1-e1281529089994-360x270.jpg
http://sdgln.com/files/gay_muslims-glbtnn-30105.jpg
http://cnho.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/gay_mujahid.jpg

ISH's resident Muslims are wrong again. They do exist.

[Akrazotile]

Talking about something you've never opened up yourself gives you even less credibility, I'm afraid.

You won't catch me talking about the Torah, cause I'm not familiar with it.



Okay.

Well I think it's clear we are fundamentally different psychologically and in how we look at the world. So I dont think we're gonna get anywhere belaboring this. Guess we'll agree to disagree.



But boy, I tell ya.... Sometimes I just dont.....


I dont even know. The world is really hard to understand sometimes.

[poido123]

So then why do you try to give us Muslims here on ISH a hard time? Do you see us as the bad ones?


I do when you guys aren't open to discuss core issues of Islam, producing radical elements in society. The ones who are fcking up western societies with their religious demands and open disgust of the host country.

Look at it in our shoes. Australia has been a free and multicultural country for some time now. We have experienced all types of religious diversity and cultures. Now, our laws our way of life has dramatically turned on its head and it's because of the fundamentalist Muslims who are coming in in droves. He'll we even have Chinese/Indian/Europeans protesting against Islam in Australia. That's how bad it is.

I never had to worry about taking public transport. In today's world climate, it's not so safe anymore. In the back of my mind, I fear a terrorist attack.

[Akrazotile]

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

http://img.memecdn.com/Gay-Muslim_o_106443.jpg



:roll: that sign



http://sdgln.com/files/gay_muslims-glbtnn-30105.jpg


.

:roll: Those white onlookers, like "I love when people see me cheer on minorities like theyre a disabled little brother! Ah, I'm so important. I should treat myself to gelatto before my hair appointment."

[navy]

Wouldnt u say?
Typical Akrazotile. :lol

Alright buddy, where do you get your morals from. Dont go on a ranting tangent and answer the question please.

[9erempiree]

I find it quite funny that we can be called bigots and islamophobes, if such a word exists, but its ok for them to deny their gay brothers and sisters. It's quite hilarious to be honest with you.

I don't think I have heard a hardcore Christian denouncing their gay people on ISH.

[Bosnian Sajo]

I find it quite funny that we can be called bigots and islamophobes, if such a word exists, but its ok for them to deny their gay brothers and sisters. It's quite hilarious to be honest with you.

I don't think I have heard a hardcore Christian denouncing their gay people on ISH.

If only we could all be losers like you :(

[Bosnian Sajo]

Because the 200+ people at your mosque gloss over the less desirable edicts of Allah while those who don't gloss over those passages have started a massive movement that is sweeping through the Middle East as I type this. Whether or not you want to acknowledge it, you want to claim it's 'taken out of context'... there are people who read it and take it literally.





We don't gloss over it, damn how many times do I gotta fckin say it, read the full quran to understand it. And even then you won't understand it all, the Quran is made so that everytime you read it you will learn something new.

Deep stuff guys, if you're really interested go to a local mosque (ask what mesheb they follow, if they say they don't follow a mesheb walk out because you may get wrong answers) and pick the imams brain, not mine.

And for those who do take it literally, bruh we are taking care of it (trying, doing our best at least), those dudes are fools.

[9erempiree]

:roll: that sign



:roll: Those white onlookers, like "I love when people see me cheer on minorities like theyre a disabled little brother! Ah, I'm so important. I should treat myself to gelatto before my hair appointment."

A gay Muslim has all the basis all the ticks checked. Gay and Muslim.

[DonDadda59]

We don't gloss over it, damn how many times do I gotta fckin say it, read the full quran to understand it. And even then you won't understand it all, the Quran is made so that everytime you read it you will learn something new.

Deep stuff guys, if you're really interested go to a local mosque (ask what mesheb they follow, if they say they don't follow a mesheb walk out because you may get wrong answers) and pick the imams brain, not mine.

And for those who do take it literally, bruh we are taking care of it (trying, doing our best at least), those dudes are fools.

Definitely. But it's not like they're plucking their beliefs out of thin air. :confusedshrug:

[Patrick Chewing]

I didn't say gay people cannot be Muslim, I said you cannot be gay and Muslim.



Does this statement make sense to you?

[Patrick Chewing]

If only we could all be losers like you :(


I'm laughing over here. So here we are seeing how hypocritical Islam and its followers really are. Religion of peace, but only if you are straight.


Glad that you've exposed yourselves for the true bigots that you are.


I can accept Christians believing in traditional marriage, but I cannot accept your asinine statement that you cannot be gay and Muslim. I bet there are millions upon millions of gay, repressed Muslims. You're probably one of them since you are in such staunch denial.

Islam, a death cult consisting of anti-gay bigots.

[Akrazotile]

Typical Akrazotile. :lol

Alright buddy, where do you get your morals from. Dont go on a ranting tangent and answer the question please.

My "morals" come from an internal sense of compassion for certain things, which I cant explain. However everything that I feel compassion for will not be everything that you do and vice versa. There will certainly be plenty of overlap, but our "morals" will not be identical. Why should we pretend they are? So opportunistic businesses and politicians can conveniently round us up into one barrell and shoot us like fish? Thats the whole point of political correctness. And average people go along with it because making everyone else be part of the same group as them validates their belief.

We should have minimal federal regulation where some guys in washington are telling people in every corner of the country what to do. But ofc when they make a conservative decree the left thinks its bullshit that Bush and the Republicans can tell them what to do. But when Obama and the Dems tell everyone what to do, oh, yeah, well then its totally cool.


Admittedly what I am espousing is very idealistic in itself bc it requires an intelligent, thinking public. Which unfortunately may not ever be a reality.

[poido123]

My "morals" come from an internal sense of compassion for certain things, which I cant explain. However everything that I feel compassion for will not be everything that you do and vice versa. There will certainly be plenty of overlap, but our "morals" will not be identical. Why should we pretend they are? So opportunistic businesses and politicians can conveniently round us up into one barrell and shoot us like fish? Thats the whole point of political correctness. And average people go along with it because making everyone else be part of the same group as them validates their belief.

We should have minimal federal regulation where some guys in washington are telling people in every corner of the country what to do. But ofc when they make a conservative decree the left thinks its bullshit that Bush and the Republicans can tell them what to do. But when Obama and the Dems tell everyone what to do, oh, yeah, well then its totally cool.


Admittedly what I am espousing is very idealistic in itself bc it requires an intelligent, thinking public. Which unfortunately may not ever be a reality.


The thoughts I share, but couldn't put to paper. Well written post :applause:


Repped

[Akrazotile]

The thoughts I share, but couldn't put to paper. Well written post :applause:


Repped



Thanks, mate :cheers:

[Nick Young]

I don't have the right to call another person's religion wrong, especially if they are not harming anyone.

Yes Islam is my religion but I don't necessarily believe you have to be Muslim to end up in heaven. Being a pleasant person means you're already on your way, regardless of your faith. I don't hate any religion, which is why it baffles me that there are e-terrorists on this forum that do nothing but insult my religion. I don't go around bashing another religion (except if you're a branistan, someone who worships Lebron). I don't get bothered by it, because I realize the internet allows enough privacy for even the most ignorant and hateful of people to express their views. I don't come here to get stressed out, I know I didn't join a Fox News forum. But like I said, I don't let it bother me :D it just baffles me :oldlol:

The whole LGBT topic is for another day. I don't know how I'd react if my son turned out to be gay, I doubt I'd be happy about it though.
Would you describe Islam as a religion of peace?

Would you disown your son if he banged a dude?

[RidonKs]

Would you describe Islam as a religion of peace?
would you describe judaism as a religion of hesitation?
would you describe zoroastrianism as a religion of distraction?
would you describe buddhism as a religion of self-loathing?
would you describe christianity as a religion of imposition?
would you describe jainism as a religion of inaction?

and so on and so forth

stop asking dumb questions

[Nick Young]

would you describe judaism as a religion of hesitation?
would you describe zoroastrianism as a religion of distraction?
would you describe buddhism as a religion of self-loathing?
would you describe christianity as a religion of imposition?
would you describe jainism as a religion of inaction?

and so on and so forth

stop asking dumb questions
1. would you describe judaism as a religion of hesitation?
No

2. would you describe zoroastrianism as a religion of distraction?
No

3. would you describe buddhism as a religion of self-loathing?
No

4. would you describe christianity as a religion of imposition?
No

5. would you describe jainism as a religion of inaction?
No


Would you describe Islam as a religion of peace, Ridonks?

[RidonKs]

sometimes i would, nick young. other times i would not. to be honest, i think your answering negatively to every one of those questions spells out your clear bias. i chose those adjectives for a reason, primarily because they are adequate descriptions for those aforementioned religions, under certain circumstances.

is america a country of peace?

[Nick Young]

sometimes i would, nick young. other times i would not. to be honest, i think your answering negatively to every one of those questions spells out your clear bias. i chose those adjectives for a reason, primarily because they are adequate descriptions for those aforementioned religions, under certain circumstances.

is america a country of peace?
No they aren't. If you really think so, you are revealing your own ignorance and bigotry.


is america a country of peace?
No

[RidonKs]

No they aren't. If you really think so, you are revealing your own ignorance and bigotry.


is america a country of peace?
No
adequate descriptions. not comprehensive descriptions. but i digress.

you believe we ought to have a serious conversation about the problems with islam, because it is NOT a religion of peace, thus violence spreads with its propagation. if you believe that america is NOT a country of peace, thus violence spreads from its propagation, why do you not spend a considerable amount of your time spreading that message as you do others?

you are revealing you own ignorance and bigotry.

[Nick Young]

adequate descriptions. not comprehensive descriptions. but i digress.

you believe we ought to have a serious conversation about the problems with islam, because it is NOT a religion of peace, thus violence spreads with its propagation. if you believe that america is NOT a country of peace, thus violence spreads from its propagation, why do you not spend a considerable amount of your time spreading that message as you do others?

you are revealing you own ignorance and bigotry.
Wrong. I am simply asking a simple and basic question. Stop projecting yourself on to me. My intention is to hear different thoughts and views of different people, so that it can help to inform my own view.




Is Islam a religion of peace?

[RidonKs]

Is Islam a religion of peace?
i have friends who are devout and wouldn't swat a fly.

given this fact, in addition to everything we see on the news every day, you can hopefully understand the difficulty i have answering your facile question. it is a contentious and unproductive line of questioning you're using to get a response to a question on which you've already made up your mind. in the real world, that is what we call propaganda.

[Nick Young]

i have friends who are devout and wouldn't swat a fly.

given this fact, in addition to everything we see on the news every day, you can hopefully understand the difficulty i have answering your facile question. it is a contentious and unproductive line of questioning you're using to get a response to a question on which you've already made up your mind. in the real world, that is what we call propaganda.
My mind is not made up. I always like to learn different views and opinions. It is very telling when people are afraid to answer a basic question though.

I didn't as "Are all people who follow Islam peaceful?" which is the question you answered.

I asked "Is Islam a religion of peace?"


I would also like to ask, are you very familiar with the basic history of Mohammad and Islam and how the religion grew during Mohammad's lifetime under Mohammad's leadership?

[RidonKs]

hey nick young, i have several related retarded questions for you

is the world peaceful?
are east asians skinny?
do people eat pancakes?
are dogs loyal or disobedient?
do i get a cramp when i go into the pool a half hour after eating? john oliver says that's horseshit but i think it has a lot to do with militant struggle in the middle east

stfu

[RidonKs]

I would also like to ask, are you very familiar with the basic history of Mohammad and Islam and how the religion grew during Mohammad's lifetime under Mohammad's leadership?
not even slightly familiar. do bear in mind i'm a simple minded idiot.

please take time out of your day to sincerely inform me. i would appreciate any information you have to offer.

[Nick Young]

hey nick young, i have several related retarded questions for you

is the world peaceful?
are east asians skinny?
do people eat pancakes?
are dogs loyal or disobedient?
do i get a cramp when i go into the pool a half hour after eating? john oliver says that's horseshit but i think it has a lot to do with militant struggle in the middle east

stfu


1. is the world peaceful?
Not in my opinion.

2. are east asians skinny?
I would estimate that the majority of Asians in the world are skinny compared to fat ones.

3. do people eat pancakes?
Yes

4. are dogs loyal or disobedient?
Loyalty and obedience are two different things. I think that dogs are very loyal, many can be disobedient whilst being badly trained, but is still ultimately loyal to its owner deep down inside.

5. do i get a cramp when i go into the pool a half hour after eating?
I don't know. I personally never have gotten cramps by swimming within 30 minutes of eating. I am not sure if this is an urban legend but everyone says its extremely bad for you to do that. I don't know the truth.

6. john oliver says that's horseshit but i think it has a lot to do with militant struggle in the middle east
This isn't a question.


I have one question for you: What makes you think these questions of yours are 'retarded'?

[Nick Young]

not even slightly familiar. do bear in mind i'm a simple minded idiot.

please take time out of your day to sincerely inform me. i would appreciate any information you have to offer.
There is no need to be defensive and insecure about your ignorance. It is ok. Everyone in the world is ignorant about a great many things, myself included.

This is a good documentary that is a great jumping on point for people unfamiliar with the personal life and history of Mohammad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTZDBNVmIo:cheers:

[RidonKs]

1. is the world peaceful?
Not in my opinion.

2. are east asians skinny?
I would estimate that the majority of Asians in the world are skinny compared to fat ones.

3. do people eat pancakes?
Yes

4. are dogs loyal or disobedient?
Loyalty and obedience are two different things. I think that dogs are very loyal, many can be disobedient whilst being badly trained, but is still ultimately loyal to its owner deep down inside.

5. do i get a cramp when i go into the pool a half hour after eating?
I don't know. I personally never have gotten cramps by swimming within 30 minutes of eating. I am not sure if this is an urban legend but everyone says its extremely bad for you to do that. I don't know the truth.

6. john oliver says that's horseshit but i think it has a lot to do with militant struggle in the middle east
This isn't a question.


I have one question for you: What makes you think these questions of yours are 'retarded'?
they are shallow. when the questioner demands either a yes or a no, as opposed to the sort of qualified answer you gave regarding dogs, it ruins the conversation and turns it into something like an antagonistic screaming match. i ain't down for that shit, my voice is loud enough as it is without extra encouragement.

[RidonKs]

There is no need to be defensive and insecure about your ignorance. It is ok. Everyone in the world is ignorant about a great many things, myself included.

This is a good documentary that is a great jumping on point for people unfamiliar with the personal life and history of Mohammad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTZDBNVmIo:cheers:
in all honestly i will probably not watch that. but i will read a summary if you would care to provide one.

[Nick Young]

they are shallow.
Only to those whose minds lack original thoughts of their own. Stop projecting yourself on to others. I advise you learn to start letting go of your ego. It is holding you back in life, bro:cheers:

[Nick Young]

in all honestly i will probably not watch that. but i will read a summary if you would care to provide one.
Summary: The life of Mohammad from birth to death, with commentary from Christian, Jewish, Muslim and secular historians as well as theologians and religious leaders. It is a good documentary and very informative, making sure to show many different points of view.

[RidonKs]

Only to those whose minds lack original thoughts of their own. Stop projecting yourself on to others. I advise you learn to start letting go of your ego. It is holding you back in life, bro:cheers:
excellent advice sir, much appreciated

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Summary: The life of Mohammad from birth to death, with commentary from Christian, Jewish, Muslim and secular historians as well as theologians and religious leaders. It is a good documentary and very informative, making sure to show many different points of view.

First of all first and biggest point here.
IS PEACE
the term.
Is not..
"non-fighting" {Although it states in the Qu'ran in NON-FIGHTING times that one should strive not to make mischief or be quarrelsome and it STATES in FIGHTING times that one should be violent.. similar to the Albanian blood feuds culture)
It's Sakinah Peace
It's very complicated but the Arabic 2 English translations are SO SO SO wack, since Arabic is a very different language based off of Akkad, Sumerian, Aramic; whcih are far more technical and less prone to vague variations (like how there are dozens of thesaurus synonyms for English)

Peace would, wrongfully, conjure an image of a hippie with two fingers coming across.
But watch this video and skip to the end.
And slightly closer to the peace, that Muslims hope to attain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW62OOVioHU
See how the Human Energy Body kind of ... dissolves into the Light around it? That's a fairly decent depiction of Submission to Allah's Will.
With Satan being the rebellious accursed devil, whispering people away from the Muslim Straight Path.

Dude I actually kinda respect your thread inputs seeing as how you've mathematically proven Landon Donovan > Wayne Rooney (that was awesome). And you at least try to act fair on threads to everyone and call things as you see them. That's a trait that's missing in many posters. But ya gotta be fair here.

You continuously call the Prophet a Warlord and all that and more but you conveniently left out the mentality of the Quraysh tribe at the time.

Abu Sufyan, Abu Lahab, and other dudes power were flat out thieves, humongous misogynists, imposed taxes on the poor, continuously smacked down orphans, superstitious, profited off the pilgrims, arrogant, far more intolerant etc.

That place was a hot mess of corruption. An old version of a rundown Mexico, except more desert, people burying daughters, and superstitions everywhere. Oh and more poetry. Just like how Jesus was PISSED THE F*CK OFF when he saw a bunch of corrupt azz clowns celebrating in temples passing around booze at the behest of slave labor. Hence why he came there to take a whip of cords and to set things straight.

How the heck is one to fix that corruption without hatching a few eggs ESPECIALLY when the nikkas wanted your head on a stick for preaching other than the status quo?

These are the same nikkas (Abu Lahab and co.) that KILLED THE MOTHER (Suhaila sp?) of a child IN FRONT OF HER SON (Hasan) for not accepting their idols.

He was Jesus-like in the beginning preaching and having only a bunch of followers (Sahaba) including Bilal.

If a person came on this thread and wanted to know something about Muhammad pbuh, and only him they'd think he was some kind of warmonger pedophile without even getting to know the character in depth.
It is by no coincidence that 1,000,000,000 revere him.
- Orphan in the desert
- Respected and revered by every Arab person around him BEFORE "Islam" (I say Islam in quotes because Islam actually refers to Submission to God thereby making it as old as time was time) for being "The Honest One."
That titles pretty hard to earn and even harder to keep.
- Extremely courteous to cats (actually cut off his own sleeve) to allow a cat to peacefully sleep
- FED SEVENTY PEOPLE for stages of time at his home, and almost always OFFERED his extra food to the people around him despite Fasting.
- Seemed to take only as much as needed from Mother Earth in terms of resources.
- Elevated and loved a common slave, Bilal, and asked him to perform a prayer. This was when people USED to prostrate themselves to relatives of higher status and if you were lower... you were basically an object. Slaves were the lowest of the low.
- Mastered trance meditation at a young age
- Used to sexually satisfy his wives making rounds and being fair to each of them in time allotted (it's really really really hard to be fair to f*ckbuddies.. even your own friends). AFTER age 40.
-
* A dozen* more to come*


What happened after, I'm still learning/ researching but will get back to you. This was likely where the "warmonger" idea came fom.


Then came battle after battle. Most of the verses of the Qu'ran are of a Defensive nature. I will admit that a lot of Muslims.. Ottoman Expansion with their devirse system as well as the grandsons of the Mongols (Tamerlane) and then the guy in India.. were the aggressors.

And in the Qu'ran it does state that "Allah hates the aggressors."
Henceforth, why when the 5 Muslim nations tried to take down your homeboy nation Israel, relatively recently, they failed, epically.

But on the flipside

The Mamluk Sultanate
Baibars protecting his people from the Mongols
The Indonesian people in general
and the majority pray 5X a day, work, have families, have manners etc.
Rand influenced Greenspan and Greenspan did something that tremendously f*cked up the lives of our SE Asian buddies)



If you're going to say "how it is" then you need a Beginning and a context to that. And you need to disclose the details where they wanted a 10 year peace treaty between the Quraysh tribe. And then put them all on a scale and make the verdict.

The same matter of disgust you felt when you linked us to that Palestine children brainwashing video (which was terrible and intellectually dishonest on behalf of the Palestinians) is being regurgitated now through you.

That's ok I'm prone to imitating sinful behavior and it's something we gotta work on. It's also why Madonna wears the bracelet around her arm..as a symbol to restrict the effect of the ego, which amplifies the ailments of the herat.



...edit: This post is incomplete I'll come back to this

[beer]

half way through that documentary nick young posted. It's really good with a lot of big names like john esposito, karen armstrong, tariq ramadan etc

Thanks for posting it.

[Nick Young]

First of all first and biggest point here.
IS PEACE
the term.
Is not..
"non-fighting" {Although it states in the Qu'ran in NON-FIGHTING times that one should strive not to make mischief or be quarrelsome and it STATES in FIGHTING times that one should be violent.. similar to the Albanian blood feuds culture)
It's Sakinah Peace
It's very complicated but the Arabic 2 English translations are SO SO SO wack, since Arabic is a very different language based off of Akkad, Sumerian, Aramic; whcih are far more technical and less prone to vague variations (like how there are dozens of thesaurus synonyms for English)

Peace would, wrongfully, conjure an image of a hippie with two fingers coming across.
But watch this video and skip to the end.
And slightly closer to the peace, that Muslims hope to attain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW62OOVioHU
See how the Human Energy Body kind of ... dissolves into the Light around it? That's a fairly decent depiction of Submission to Allah's Will.
With Satan being the rebellious accursed devil, whispering people away from the Muslim Straight Path.

Dude I actually kinda respect your thread inputs seeing as how you've mathematically proven Landon Donovan > Wayne Rooney (that was awesome). And you at least try to act fair on threads to everyone and call things as you see them. That's a trait that's missing in many posters. But ya gotta be fair here.

You continuously call the Prophet a Warlord and all that and more but you conveniently left out the mentality of the Quraysh tribe at the time.

Abu Sufyan, Abu Lahab, and other dudes power were flat out thieves, humongous misogynists, imposed taxes on the poor, continuously smacked down orphans, superstitious, profited off the pilgrims, arrogant, far more intolerant etc.

That place was a hot mess of corruption. An old version of a rundown Mexico, except more desert, people burying daughters, and superstitions everywhere. Oh and more poetry. Just like how Jesus was PISSED THE F*CK OFF when he saw a bunch of corrupt azz clowns celebrating in temples passing around booze at the behest of slave labor. Hence why he came there to take a whip of cords and to set things straight.

How the heck is one to fix that corruption without hatching a few eggs ESPECIALLY when the nikkas wanted your head on a stick for preaching other than the status quo?

These are the same nikkas (Abu Lahab and co.) that KILLED THE MOTHER (Suhaila sp?) of a child IN FRONT OF HER SON (Hasan) for not accepting their idols.

He was Jesus-like in the beginning preaching and having only a bunch of followers (Sahaba) including Bilal.

If a person came on this thread and wanted to know something about Muhammad pbuh, and only him they'd think he was some kind of warmonger pedophile without even getting to know the character in depth.
It is by no coincidence that 1,000,000,000 revere him.
- Orphan in the desert
- Respected and revered by every Arab person around him BEFORE "Islam" (I say Islam in quotes because Islam actually refers to Submission to God thereby making it as old as time was time) for being "The Honest One."
That titles pretty hard to earn and even harder to keep.
- Extremely courteous to cats (actually cut off his own sleeve) to allow a cat to peacefully sleep
- FED SEVENTY PEOPLE for stages of time at his home, and almost always OFFERED his extra food to the people around him despite Fasting.
- Seemed to take only as much as needed from Mother Earth in terms of resources.
- Elevated and loved a common slave, Bilal, and asked him to perform a prayer. This was when people USED to prostrate themselves to relatives of higher status and if you were lower... you were basically an object. Slaves were the lowest of the low.
- Mastered trance meditation at a young age
- Used to sexually satisfy his wives making rounds and being fair to each of them in time allotted (it's really really really hard to be fair to f*ckbuddies.. even your own friends). AFTER age 40.
-
* A dozen* more to come*


What happened after, I'm still learning/ researching but will get back to you. This was likely where the "warmonger" idea came fom.


Then came battle after battle. Most of the verses of the Qu'ran are of a Defensive nature. I will admit that a lot of Muslims.. Ottoman Expansion with their devirse system as well as the grandsons of the Mongols (Tamerlane) and then the guy in India.. were the aggressors.

And in the Qu'ran it does state that "Allah hates the aggressors."
Henceforth, why when the 5 Muslim nations tried to take down your homeboy nation Israel, relatively recently, they failed, epically.

But on the flipside

The Mamluk Sultanate
Baibars protecting his people from the Mongols
The Indonesian people in general
and the majority pray 5X a day, work, have families, have manners etc.
Rand influenced Greenspan and Greenspan did something that tremendously f*cked up the lives of our SE Asian buddies)



If you're going to say "how it is" then you need a Beginning and a context to that. And you need to disclose the details where they wanted a 10 year peace treaty between the Quraysh tribe. And then put them all on a scale and make the verdict.

The same matter of disgust you felt when you linked us to that Palestine children brainwashing video (which was terrible and intellectually dishonest on behalf of the Palestinians) is being regurgitated now through you.

That's ok I'm prone to imitating sinful behavior and it's something we gotta work on. It's also why Madonna wears the bracelet around her arm..as a symbol to restrict the effect of the ego, which amplifies the ailments of the herat.



...edit: This post is incomplete I'll come back to this
You are right. Me referring to Mohammad as a warlord is a hyperbole and unfair. I will stop doing that. At the same time I don't think everything he did was noble, and he had some missteps IMO along the way that I can't really support. Was he one of the greatest and most charismatic humans in history? IMO yes.


He was Jesus-like in the beginning but the compromises in his message he took to grow his followers(the Satanic verses, becoming power hungry IMO) revealed his very human flaws.

Jesus of course probably had flaws too but they were edited out of the bible/he died before he could go (IMO) corrupt like Mohammad did.

[Patrick Chewing]

Nick Young being pulled into the dark side.


Fight it.

[Nick Young]

Calling Mohammad a warlord is unfair. A warlord is someone like Vlad the Impaler or Attilla the Hun.

I would more accurately describe Mohammad as a dude who started with a great idea, and was spreading a decent message, but due to compromises and politics his message became muddled and IMO corrupted even before his death.

That's my view on Mohammad right now based on research I've done.

[Patrick Chewing]

No doubt he was a warlord from my estimation. And of course that whole pedo thing too.

He sanctioned raids and beheadings. Muslims are going to expect people to believe that it was due to self-defense or any other justifiable reason? And this is your prophet?