Scottie Pippen cost the Bulls the championship in 1990 and 4-peat - FACT

[3ball]

The Bulls took the Pistons 7 games in 1990 ECF, whereas the Blazers only took them 6 in the Finals.

Based on this, we can conclude that MJ's Bulls would've beaten Clyde's Blazers in 1990 Finals.

Unfortunately, Pippen famously disappeared in the critical Game 7 against Detroit.. He later admitted in the Bad Boys documentary (link below), that "the pressure" caused him to score only 2 points and 1-10 fg in the series-decider:


"..it was the pressure.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s



Pippen cost Bulls the 1990 championship.. :facepalm
.

[livinglegend]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Trollsmasher]

that game was a prime example of Jordan being absolutely incapable of maximizing the effectivness of his teammates

in fact he did the exact opposite (he held the ball for 15 minutes in that game, clean time)

the loss falls squarely on his shoulders

http://puu.sh/j7Pmc/54b991d06a.png

that is the story of his entire career - players suffered while playing with him

[triangleoffense]

the agendas are real =/

[Smoke117]

Jordan carried Pippen through six championships...why didn't he just shoulder the load here when he was in his absolute prime? Anyway from this game 7:

Horace Grant: 3/17

Craig Hodges: 3/13

Bill Cartwright: 3/9

B.J. Armstrong: 1/8

A lot of players played like ass in that game...they didn't all have migraines though. Jordan himself needed 27 shots to score 31 points, so let's not act like he dropped 50 points or something.

[Kvnzhangyay]

If Pippen had pressure that means MJ wasn't dominant enough to take over the game :confusedshrug:

[Hey Yo]

Jordan cost the Bulls a chance to 4-peat by quitting the league in 1994 (while under contract) and 1999.

FACT

[Trollsmasher]

By the way, OP, can you give me an answer for why does Michael " "The GOAT" " Jordan have a losing career record without Scottie Pippen in the lineup?

I would've thought " "The GOAT" " would be able to at least obtain a winning record without a TOP 25 player of all time in the lineup

194-198

[kennethgriffin]

Isiah thomas doesnt get enough credit for dominating good all around jordan led bulls teams in the playoffs... bird beat up on a bad bulls team. But isiah ****ed up mj in the ecf's... like o.p saod. If the bulls win that game theyre the nba champs basically



So zeke is the only guy to handle a full healthy prime mj on a great squad and push his shit in as lead dog



Impressive to say the least


And zeke got robbed of the 1988 title / fmvp btw

[3ball]

Jordan cost the Bulls a chance to 4-peat by quitting the league in 1994 (while under contract) and 1999.

FACT
ether..

repped

[dunksby]

Didn't MJ quit on his team?

[Mgamer20o0]

Jordan cost the Bulls a chance to 4-peat by quitting the league in 1994 (while under contract) and 1999.

FACT
99 if i remember correctly was because of the owner not wanting to pay up so he left.

[sdot_thadon]

99 if i remember correctly was because of the owner not wanting to pay up so he left.
It was due to him not being willing to comeback without Phil and/or scottie........hmmm

[Smoke117]

Jordan cost the Bulls a chance to 4-peat by quitting the league in 1994 (while under contract) and 1999.

FACT

Technically he quit in 1999 because Pippen was leaving, (yeah 3ball...Jordan retired because he didn't want to play without Scottie) so it wasn't his fault they didn't four-peat. It wasn't Pips fault either...the bulls plain just didn't want to pay him. The fall of the dynasty in 98 is fully on bulls management. Considering they were garbage the next 6 seasons...actually paying Scottie and keeping the team together would have worked out just fine even if they probably would have contended for only 2 more seasons.

[Droid101]

that game was a prime example of Jordan being absolutely incapable of maximizing the effectivness of his teammates

Holy shit bran just took 35 shots per game in the last series he played in and you have the audacity to say that JORDAN can't get his teammates involved??

:roll:

[aj1987]

Holy shit bran just took 35 shots per game in the last series he played in and you have the audacity to say that JORDAN can't get his teammates involved??

:roll:
You do realize that Pip was an All-Star that season, right? Dude was a terrific player. Compare rosters in the Finals. Kobeturd... :facepalm

[Droid101]

You do realize that Pip was an All-Star that season, right? Dude was a terrific player. Compare rosters in the Finals. Kobeturd... :facepalm
Go right ahead and compare the rosters. When comparing them, a rational person would say "Yep, JR, Delly, and the rest of the shit cast shot terribly, because they suck."

and: "Wow! Pippen really choked hard there didn't he? All star played like shit, wet the bed, cost the series."

That's what you should be saying looking at the box scores.

Not "Jordan just doesn't know how to get the best out of his players." Are you ****ing kidding me?

"wadeturd" in what ever way that is relevant to the discussion.

[ClipperRevival]

that game was a prime example of Jordan being absolutely incapable of maximizing the effectivness of his teammates

in fact he did the exact opposite (he held the ball for 15 minutes in that game, clean time)

the loss falls squarely on his shoulders

http://puu.sh/j7Pmc/54b991d06a.png

that is the story of his entire career - players suffered while playing with him

Ouch. 1-10 and 2 points in the ECF? Damm.

[aj1987]

Go right ahead and compare the rosters. When comparing them, a rational person would say "Yep, JR, Delly, and the rest of the shit cast shot terribly, because they suck."

and: "Wow! Pippen really choked hard there didn't he? All star played like shit, wet the bed, cost the series."

That's what you should be saying looking at the box scores.

Not "Jordan just doesn't know how to get the best out of his players." Are you ****ing kidding me?

"wadeturd" in what ever way that is relevant to the discussion.
I'm trying to point out that there was literally no one on the Cav's on the level of some of those Bulls players. :facepalm

Yeah, MJ/JR/Shump/Delly/Mozgov would've been an AMAZING team... :facepalm

[Droid101]

I'm trying to point out that there was literally no one on the Cav's on the level of some of those Bulls players. :facepalm

Yes, those Cavs players were expected to play like shit. This is not LeBron's fault.

Pippen was expected to play well, and didn't in game 7. This was not Jordan's fault.

Glad we're in agreement there.

[ClipperRevival]

The Bulls took the Pistons 7 games in 1990 ECF, whereas the Blazers only took them 6 in the Finals.

Based on this, we can conclude that MJ's Bulls would've beaten Clyde's Blazers in 1990 Finals.

Unfortunately, Pippen famously disappeared in the critical Game 7 against Detroit.. He later admitted in the Bad Boys documentary (link below), that "the pressure" caused him to score only 2 points and 1-10 fg in the series-decider:


"..it was the pressure.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s



Pippen cost Bulls the 1990 championship.. :facepalm
.

Yeah, saw that on the Bad Boys doc. He pretty much admitted he choked. I always laugh when I watch that part. Not many people are willing to admit they choked. He did.

[aj1987]

Yes, those Cavs players were expected to play like shit. This is not LeBron's fault.

Pippen was expected to play well, and didn't in game 7. This was not Jordan's fault.

Glad we're in agreement there.
:cheers:

[sdot_thadon]

The Bulls took the Pistons 7 games in 1990 ECF, whereas the Blazers only took them 6 in the Finals.

Based on this, we can conclude that MJ's Bulls would've beaten Clyde's Blazers in 1990 Finals.

Unfortunately, Pippen famously disappeared in the critical Game 7 against Detroit.. He later admitted in the Bad Boys documentary (link below), that "the pressure" caused him to score only 2 points and 1-10 fg in the series-decider:


"..it was the pressure.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s



Pippen cost Bulls the 1990 championship.. :facepalm
.
Yeah man weird, MJ also cost the bulls an 11 peat with various gaffes throughout his career.
86-89 he played such a ball dominant sub optimal style of play that his team's were predictable and easily beaten in the postseason. He averaged 37 one season, 35-6-6, 32-8-8 and couldn't get it done.

In 89 (the year he went on the stat padding streak) he couldn't beat the pistons. He was actually up 2-1 against the champs and choked it away. What's amazing is a little known fact he quit in game 5 of the eastern conference finals with a chance to go up 3-2 and take command with a possible trip to the finals. He took 8 shots in 46 minutes. They lost in 6. Had he taken a bigger percentage of his team's shots and went down fighting he'd have been in the finals like lebron this year. And he'd surely have won the championship because according to you he guarded magic most of the series and and out dueled him as a point guard that series.

In 90 the year in question Mj couldn't get it done with an allstar teammate in scottie. It went to 7 games and again MJ failed to carry enough of the load to beat the pistons. So he couldn't win one game (game 7) against the champs with his 2nd and 3rd option not playing their best? Damn imagine if his 2nd and 3rd option hadn't been there at all....(Lebron 2 wins)

In 94 he left a team that had just went to 3 straight finals and they still won 55 without him. And perhaps were just a shady call from the finals....

95 he came back and couldn't get it done against the magic, famously choking late in one of the crucial moments.

99 he decided again to walk away when it was clear his all time great cast wouldn't be kept together by management aka unstacking his deck.

11 peat ruined, thanks goat.
/3ball logic. Btw these were all stupid arguments you used in recent threads.

[Yoda]

The Bulls took the Pistons 7 games in 1990 ECF, whereas the Blazers only took them 6 in the Finals.

Based on this, we can conclude that MJ's Bulls would've beaten Clyde's Blazers in 1990 Finals.

Unfortunately, Pippen famously disappeared in the critical Game 7 against Detroit.. He later admitted in the Bad Boys documentary (link below), that "the pressure" caused him to score only 2 points and 1-10 fg in the series-decider:


"..it was the pressure.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s



Pippen cost Bulls the 1990 championship.. :facepalm
.

Arguing against nobody you are.

[Uncle Drew]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367910
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11302454&postcount=21
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11239373&postcount=8
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11104461&postcount=28
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11028049&postcount=22
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11017040&postcount=186
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367912

:biggums:

[Kobe_6/8]

The Detroit Pistons cost the Bulls the championship in 1990. FACT.

OP's theory doesn't make sense...1-9

[SouBeachTalents]

The Bulls took the Pistons 7 games in 1990 ECF, whereas the Blazers only took them 6 in the Finals.

Based on this, we can conclude that MJ's Bulls would've beaten Clyde's Blazers in 1990 Finals.

So by this same genius logic, the '95 Magic beat the '95 Bulls in 6 but got swept by the '95 Rockets. Based on this, we can conclude MJ's Bulls would have gotten stomped by Hakeem's Rockets in the 1995 Finals

[jlip]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367910
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11302454&postcount=21
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11239373&postcount=8
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11104461&postcount=28
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11028049&postcount=22
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11017040&postcount=186
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367912

:biggums:



This is even better:


Mods, it's time to perma ban 3ball. It appears that in posts 42-48 he has been exposed as a trolling alt of riseagainst.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578593&postcount=42

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578645&postcount=43

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578656&postcount=44

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578664&postcount=45

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578669&postcount=46

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578674&postcount=47

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578715&postcount=48

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

This is even better:


I know, pretty irrefutable huh

[Bandito]

that game was a prime example of Jordan being absolutely incapable of maximizing the effectivness of his teammates

in fact he did the exact opposite (he held the ball for 15 minutes in that game, clean time)

the loss falls squarely on his shoulders

http://puu.sh/j7Pmc/54b991d06a.png

that is the story of his entire career - players suffered while playing with him
They suffered so much they are still cleaning their tears with their multiple rings.

[3ball]

So by this same genius logic, the '95 Magic beat the '95 Bulls in 6 but got swept by the '95 Rockets. Based on this, we can conclude MJ's Bulls would have gotten stomped by Hakeem's Rockets in the 1995 Finals
Exactly - Rockets would beat Bulls in 1995 specifically - like you said, it's the same logic as the Bulls beating Blazers in 1990.

But heck, when MJ came back to the Bulls in 1995, EVERY player was new except Pippen and there were only 17 games left in the regular season.

Only a delusional fool with no other argument would convince himself that chemistry should be the same after 2 years off, only 17 regular season games, and a completely new team -

But in MJ's first full season back, he returned the Bulls to a championship and eventually another 3-peat, which VERIFIED his goat 3-peat to 2nd Round impact.
.

[Bandito]

Ouch. 1-10 and 2 points in the ECF? Damm.
Lebronesque isnt it:lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

that game was a prime example of Jordan being absolutely incapable of maximizing the effectivness of his teammates

in fact he did the exact opposite (he held the ball for 15 minutes in that game, clean time)

the loss falls squarely on his shoulders

http://puu.sh/j7Pmc/54b991d06a.png

that is the story of his entire career - players suffered while playing with him

This is hysterical. This entire game is on youtube and anyone can watch it and see that Jordan should have had like 13-15+ assists this game - his teammates blew numerous wide open attempts inside due to intimidation. His shooters were just cold, also due to mental weakness. lol @ blaming this on Jordan.

[Bandito]

This is even better:




http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578593&postcount=42

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578645&postcount=43

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578656&postcount=44

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578664&postcount=45

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578669&postcount=46

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578674&postcount=47

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11578715&postcount=48
This is why I come to Ish:hammerhead:

[TheCorporation]

:facepalm

Busted

[3ball]

Busted
I'm not riseagainst

you guys wish i were so you could disregard my arguments - but verify with the mods - 3ball only has 1 account..

[nzahir]

I'm not riseagainst

you guys wish i were so you could disregard my arguments - but verify with the mods - 3ball only has 1 account..
EXPOSED :banana:
1-9

[aj1987]

I'm not riseagainst

you guys wish i were so you could disregard my arguments - but verify with the mods - 3ball only has 1 account..
According to the mods, you have anywhere between 1-9 accounts.

[Paul George 24]

According to the mods, you have anywhere between 1-9 accounts.

2-4 :lol

[riseagainst]

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

i love this forum.

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

[WindmiLL]

Yes, those Cavs players were expected to play like shit. This is not LeBron's fault.

Pippen was expected to play well, and didn't in game 7. This was not Jordan's fault.

Glad we're in agreement there.


But when Wade and Bosh were expected to play well in several games in the Finals, and they didn't it was ALWAYS Lebron's fault. That's what every Kobetard was preaching on here ''but he didn't get them involved'', ''he's a cancer'', ''Lebron ball'' etc,....

Oh the double standards :oldlol:

[TheMan]

But when Wade and Bosh were expected to play well in several games in the Finals, and they didn't it was ALWAYS Lebron's fault. That's what every Kobetard was preaching on here ''but he didn't get them involved'', ''he's a cancer'', ''Lebron ball'' etc,....

Oh the double standards :oldlol:
Except Jordan doesn't need to hog the ball to be effective, unlike Bran.

[sdot_thadon]

Except Jordan doesn't need to hog the ball to be effective, unlike Bran.
Sure didn't stop him from hogging it before Phil came.....

[Lebron23]

Exposed

[ralph_i_el]

Have you ever had a migraine 3Ball? I used to get them about once a month from when I was a kid until I finished puberty. Here's how they went:

-slow dawning of nausea
-head starts to hurt
-light and sound start to hurt
-vision starts to go blurry and dark around the edges
-headache worsens to the point where it feels like corkscrews being tightened through each eye
-vomiting from the nausea until I passed out.


Thank god I've grown out of them mostly. I cannot contemplate a more complete form of torture.

[dunksby]

Man I knew there was something fishy about how 3ball trolled...

[KendrickPerkins]

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

i love this forum.

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
Only the morons are fooled though.

We know you're not smart enough to be 3ball...

Good effort anyways.

[Rocketswin2013]

3ball I have a question. So, Jordan was GOATing all of the 1990 postseason, went up against an extremely good defense, still played great, and lost because his teammates were terrible? Or did he just not do enough? Just want to make sure I get the accurate analysis of that postseason.

[Cali Syndicate]

There was only 5 games played in the 90 finals.

[Mr Feeny]

Jordan carried Pippen through six championships...why didn't he just shoulder the load here when he was in his absolute prime? Anyway from this game 7:

Horace Grant: 3/17

Craig Hodges: 3/13

Bill Cartwright: 3/9

B.J. Armstrong: 1/8

A lot of players played like ass in that game...they didn't all have migraines though. Jordan himself needed 27 shots to score 31 points, so let's not act like he dropped 50 points or something.

Because you don't beat entire basketball team single handily. Jordan had 31,9,8 on 48%fg against the best defensive team on the planet while his side kick had 2 points on 10%fg.

Do you have rocks in your head?

[Mr Feeny]

I'm not riseagainst

you guys wish i were so you could disregard my arguments - but verify with the mods - 3ball only has 1 account..

You quite clearly are, and you're quite pathetic.

[TheMan]

Sure didn't stop him from hogging it before Phil came.....
Yeah because you'd rather have all time greats like Ed Nealy and Brad Sellers putting up bricks...

[Blue&Orange]

that game was a prime example of Jordan being absolutely incapable of maximizing the effectivness of his teammates

in fact he did the exact opposite (he held the ball for 15 minutes in that game, clean time)

the loss falls squarely on his shoulders
So you saying he ballhogged his way to 31\8\9 and lost? I would say Lebronesque performance, But Michael Jordan can actually shoot the ball and be efficient.

[superteamtheory]

3ball I have a question. So, Jordan was GOATing all of the 1990 postseason, went up against an extremely good defense, still played great, and lost because his teammates were terrible? Or did he just not do enough? Just want to make sure I get the accurate analysis of that postseason.

The "Pippen choke" just seems to prove all the more the basic point the forum nonbelievers (the ones who will make excuses) are trying to make:

Even the GOAT is dependent on roster and teammates.

True for Jordan (not just here but also 95 -- the team hop of Horace Grant was the decisive factor in that series), LeBron (J.R. Smith doesn't come through, Delly craps out after a few games, Wade craps out in 2014 and is injured final game of 2011, arguable other examples from his early Cavs days), Allen Iverson (tell me other than 2001 & 2002 which of his rosters was ready to win a championship), Wilt Chamberlain's supporting cast vs. Bill Russell's etc. ...

I don't see how the crucial Pippen moment reflects badly on any top 50 player who has been in the situation of not having much roster support. Which is what 3Bull wants, to make everyone not MJ look bad.. Total flaming a-hole hater if there ever was one..

[superteamtheory]

Have you ever had a migraine 3Ball? I used to get them about once a month from when I was a kid until I finished puberty. Here's how they went:

-slow dawning of nausea
-head starts to hurt
-light and sound start to hurt
-vision starts to go blurry and dark around the edges
-headache worsens to the point where it feels like corkscrews being tightened through each eye
-vomiting from the nausea until I passed out.


Thank god I've grown out of them mostly. I cannot contemplate a more complete form of torture.

Oh yeah, and that too.

[97 bulls]

How is this a choke????? The man played hurt. You guys are so idiotic

[3ball]

How is this a choke????? The man played hurt.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s


"It was the pressure.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."


^^^ This was Pippen being interviewed in the Bad Boys documentary admitting how the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7, which cost the Bulls their first trip to the Finals.





You guys are so idiotic


Don't get too agitated or be surprised..

Pip has more historic chokes than any 2nd option ever: 1990 ECF Game 7... 1994 ECF Game 3... 1996 Finals... 1998 Finals Games 5 and 6

[97 bulls]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s


"It was the pressure.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."


^^^ This was Pippen being interviewed in the Bad Boys documentary admitting how the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7, which cost the Bulls their first trip to the Finals.

He was referring to the migraine you moron. Only an idiot would think that a game seven in the ECF vs a team that is literally trying to hurt you shouldn't be considered pressure. Did you even look at the video I sent you? He had a bad game at the most.



Don't get too agitated or be surprised..

Pip has more historic chokes than any 2nd option ever: 1990 ECF Game 7... 1994 ECF Game 3... 1996 Finals... 1998 Finals Games 5 and 6
He was hurt in 96. He was hurt in 98 game 6. And 90. I dont see how 94.would be.considered a choke, HE WANTED TO TAKE THE FRIGGN SHOT!!!!!!!

The game 5 was just a bad game. They happen. Was Jordans 5/19 performance in 96 finals game 6 a choke?

[Rocketswin2013]

The "Pippen choke" just seems to prove all the more the basic point the forum nonbelievers (the ones who will make excuses) are trying to make:

Even the GOAT is dependent on roster and teammates.

True for Jordan (not just here but also 95 -- the team hop of Horace Grant was the decisive factor in that series), LeBron (J.R. Smith doesn't come through, Delly craps out after a few games, Wade craps out in 2014 and is injured final game of 2011, arguable other examples from his early Cavs days), Allen Iverson (tell me other than 2001 & 2002 which of his rosters was ready to win a championship), Wilt Chamberlain's supporting cast vs. Bill Russell's etc. ...

I don't see how the crucial Pippen moment reflects badly on any top 50 player who has been in the situation of not having much roster support. Which is what 3Bull wants, to make everyone not MJ look bad.. Total flaming a-hole hater if there ever was one..
That's the point I was making. Jordan was just as good in 1990 as he was in 1991. If there is even a difference, it is, extremely marginal and definitely not the difference between losing in 7 in the ECF and coasing to a title. Even the Pistons defense and team he faced was objectively superior to the one he faced in 1991. The only difference is Pippen was all-time good for a second option, and the Bulls around Jordan were better. Obviously Pippen didn't play as well in 1990 and Grant was average at best in the '90 postseason..

[G-train]

Sometimes even great players play bad games.
Most people watched Lebron against Dallas in the finals, and plenty consider him a top 20 player ever.

[LAZERUSS]

Since Jordan obviously had pure shit supporting casts his entire career, and yet single-handedly won six rings...what happened in the other nine seasons of his career?

[3ball]

Since Jordan obviously had pure shit supporting casts his entire career


MJ's supporting casts in the 90's were not pure shit - but easily worse than Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, or Lebron's supporting cast.

Let's face it HOF Pippen + 11/8 Grant is nowhere near:


HOFS Kareem and Worthy

HOF's McHale, Parish, and DJ

HOF's Parker, Ginobili and likely Kawhi

HOF's Wade, 10-time all star Bosh, and Ray Allen

Kobe's Shaq or Shaq's Kobe





and yet single-handedly won six rings...what happened in the other nine seasons of his career?


Most of those other 9 seasons, his team was lottery without him - yet he did the most that was possible with those would-be lottery teams.

Take 1989 for example... :D

The cutoff to make the playoffs was 42 wins, so the 47-win Bulls would've missed playoffs without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%.. That means MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs in 1989, just like Lebron did this year..

Except Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.

[Hey Yo]

MJ's supporting casts in the 90's were not pure shit - but easily worse than Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, or Lebron's supporting cast.

Let's face it HOF Pippen + 11/8 Grant is nowhere near:


HOFS Kareem and Worthy

HOF's McHale, Parish, and DJ

HOF's Parker, Ginobili and likely Kawhi

HOF's Wade, 10-time all star Bosh, and Ray Allen

Kobe's Shaq or Shaq's Kobe



Most of those other 9 seasons, his team was lottery without him - yet he did the most that was possible with those would-be lottery teams.

Take 1989 for example... :D

The cutoff to make the playoffs was 42 wins, so the 47-win Bulls would've missed playoffs without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%.. That means MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs in 1989, just like Lebron did this year..

Except Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.
Those top 10 lottery draft picks (in the previous year when MJ was healthy), spawned Pippen and Grant.

The 1 season (after LeBron's rookie year) that the Cavs had a lottery pick? It was Luke Jackson.

"His playing time with the Cavaliers was limited to only 46 games over his first two NBA seasons. That fall Cleveland traded Jackson, along with an undisclosed amount of cash, to the Boston Celtics in return for center Dwayne Jones"



120th pick Pete Myers >>>>> Top 10 pick Luke Jackson.

[ShawkFactory]

MJ's supporting casts in the 90's were not pure shit - but easily worse than Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kobe, or Lebron's supporting cast.

Let's face it HOF Pippen + 11/8 Grant is nowhere near:


HOFS Kareem and Worthy

HOF's McHale, Parish, and DJ

HOF's Parker, Ginobili and likely Kawhi

HOF's Wade, 10-time all star Bosh, and Ray Allen

Kobe's Shaq or Shaq's Kobe



Most of those other 9 seasons, his team was lottery without him - yet he did the most that was possible with those would-be lottery teams.

Take 1989 for example... :D

The cutoff to make the playoffs was 42 wins, so the 47-win Bulls would've missed playoffs without MJ's 33/8/8 on 54%.. That means MJ took a lottery team to 6 games with the champs in 1989, just like Lebron did this year..

Except Lebron only averaged 30.1/11.3/8.5 on 41.7% in the 2015 playoffs compared to Jordan's 34.8/7.0/7.2 on 51% in 1989.

MJ has a 5-point scoring edge and 10-point efficiency edge, compared to Lebron's 4 rebound and 1.6 assist edge - obviously, MJ's huge scoring and efficiency edges are worth more, especially for a #1 option.
Where are you getting 11/8 from for Grant? God I can't wait until everyone realizes how full of shit you are. But then again so are they so I guess you'll always have a place here.

[3ball]

Where are you getting 11/8 from for Grant? God I can't wait until everyone realizes how full of shit you are. But then again so are they so I guess you'll always have a place here.


Grant's career averages alongside MJ in regular season from 1988-1993:

12/8



Grant's averages in playoffs from 1988 to 1993:

11/8



Grant's averages in playoffs during 3-peat (1991-1993):

11/8



Grant's Career Averages:

11/8



WHAT'S THE PROBLEM

[ShawkFactory]

Grant's career averages alongside MJ in regular season from 1988-1993:

12/8



Grant's averages in playoffs from 1988 to 1993:

11/8



Grant's averages in playoffs during 3-peat (1991-1993):

11/8



Grant's Career Averages:

11/8



WHAT'S THE PROBLEM
Well more of an issue with the fact that you simply label him and his impact as 11/8. Look at what he did the following year, in both the regular season AND playoffs. He was all-star.

And according to an argument I believe you previously made regarding Big Z and Lebrons supporting cast very early in his career, makes him one of the 24 best players in the league. This was a single year later.

[3ball]

Look at what he did the following year, in both the regular season AND playoffs. He was all-star.


He had a career year that year... 15/11... But pretty much the same as the 14/11 he put up alongside MJ in 1992..

As usual, MJ's teammates play at pretty much 100% capacity alongside him..

It's remarkable they could do this alongside MJ's 33 ppg and highest ever usage.. But of course, MJ got most of his buckets in a quick-reacting, off-ball fashion, so it makes sense.





And according to an argument I believe you previously made regarding Big Z and Lebrons supporting cast very early in his career, makes him one of the 24 best players in the league.


The all-star game is still a subjective process.. But Zydrunas verified his top 24 status by being picked twice for the all-star game in 2003 and 2005..

Whereas Horace was never even picked for the all-star game alongside MJ, so it's a moot point anyway.

Btw, a peak Zydrunas was on an entirely different level than peak Horace - Zydrunas was one of the best post presences in the league - you could run your offense through him and he was a very good rim protector..

Otoh, peak Horace was a double-double guy, but not a rim protector or legit post presence and therefore much more replaceable than Zydrunas.. Horace was just a play-finisher that fed off guys like MJ and Shaq.. Those are the facts.
.

[sdot_thadon]

Yeah man weird, MJ also cost the bulls an 11 peat with various gaffes throughout his career.
86-89 he played such a ball dominant sub optimal style of play that his team's were predictable and easily beaten in the postseason. He averaged 37 one season, 35-6-6, 32-8-8 and couldn't get it done.

In 89 (the year he went on the stat padding streak) he couldn't beat the pistons. He was actually up 2-1 against the champs and choked it away. What's amazing is a little known fact he quit in game 5 of the eastern conference finals with a chance to go up 3-2 and take command with a possible trip to the finals. He took 8 shots in 46 minutes. They lost in 6. Had he taken a bigger percentage of his team's shots and went down fighting he'd have been in the finals like lebron this year. And he'd surely have won the championship because according to you he guarded magic most of the series and and out dueled him as a point guard that series.

In 90 the year in question Mj couldn't get it done with an allstar teammate in scottie. It went to 7 games and again MJ failed to carry enough of the load to beat the pistons. So he couldn't win one game (game 7) against the champs with his 2nd and 3rd option not playing their best? Damn imagine if his 2nd and 3rd option hadn't been there at all....(Lebron 2 wins)

In 94 he left a team that had just went to 3 straight finals and they still won 55 without him. And perhaps were just a shady call from the finals....

95 he came back and couldn't get it done against the magic, famously choking late in one of the crucial moments.

99 he decided again to walk away when it was clear his all time great cast wouldn't be kept together by management aka unstacking his deck.

11 peat ruined, thanks goat.
I think you're scared to talk about how Mj choked away an 11 peat 3ball.

[3ball]

I think you're scared to talk about how Mj choked away an 11 peat 3ball.
In 1989, MJ's supporting cast could only muster 47 wins, despite MJ's 33/8/8 on on 54%.

Compare that to Lebron's supporting cast in 2009 that achieved 66 wins behind Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49%.

No supporting cast + superior competition = only 47 wins despite a superior 33/8/8 on 54%.. :confusedshrug:

[GimmeThat]

at least Dean Smith would have criticized Jordan

to him, he views Jordan as a skill challenge passer, not a creative passer


while things may have dampen down a bit
since the implementation of the 1-year college rule

the crop of straight to pro high school players
probably more so had an 'I can play really well if these conditions are met'
than comparing to the 'create the condition/environment, than hand me the ball'

was it due to, or has there been a shift in coaching philosophy as well as the definition of leadership?


I've never been a part of the NBA players union, nor had to go talk to an agent and sign contracts based off of the CBA.


but as to Scottie Pippen costing the Bulls the championship in 1990?

where do we rank the 1990 Pistons?

I don't know how many people buys into this, but if you look at their players minutes per game even in the playoffs and ended up with 15-5 record

this to me, is just another proof as to why Wilt is ranked where he is. If Jordan and the Bulls didn't get better and made the proper adjustments, why aren't we talking about the Pistons and its 3-peat.

[kamil]

By the way, OP, can you give me an answer for why does Michael " "The GOAT" " Jordan have a losing career record without Scottie Pippen in the lineup?

I would've thought " "The GOAT" " would be able to at least obtain a winning record without a TOP 25 player of all time in the lineup

194-198

Are you still salty about LeBron* losing for a 4th time in the finals?

Let it go dude... get over it.

[GimmeThat]

Sometimes even great players play bad games.
Most people watched Lebron against Dallas in the finals, and plenty consider him a top 20 player ever.

you know, just about every year, there are 50 more new players enter the league via NBA draft

what do you call someone who wins a championship as the 1st option in their x number of years in the league? where as x is differences between the average number of winners?

when it comes to great, surely there's how bright someone is, how solid someone could be. So that when vision meets sacrifice, it's a little similar to the war in the water diviner.

we have no where to hide.
and the champion, is the one, who lives through ill will, greeted by passion. Because bridges built by compassion, is to resolute away conflict.


and the taste of photosynthesis.

[sdot_thadon]

In 1989, MJ's supporting cast could only muster 47 wins, despite MJ's 33/8/8 on on 54%.

Compare that to Lebron's supporting cast in 2009 that achieved 66 wins behind Lebron's 28/8/7 on 49%.

No supporting cast + superior competition = only 47 wins despite a superior 33/8/8 on 54%.. :confusedshrug:
Why does his supporting cast have to make up for it? Why couldn't he just take a larger percentage of his team's shots with his goat level isolation game and produce more like you said lebron should have in 2014?

[3ball]

Why does MJ's supporting cast have to make up for it?


Because LEBRON's cast made up for it.

In 2009, the supporting cast added sufficient help ON TOP of Lebron's 28/8/7 that the Cavs won a whopping 66 games - that's a super-ton of help.

By comparison, MJ's supporting cast only added enough help on top of MJ's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.. Not much help.
.

[sdot_thadon]

Because LEBRON's cast made up for it.

In 2009, the supporting cast added sufficient help ON TOP of Lebron's 28/8/7 that the Cavs won a whopping 66 games - that's a super-ton of help.

By comparison, MJ's supporting cast only added enough help on top of MJ's 33/8/8 to win 47 games.. Not much help.
.
No sir, by all means explain to me why Mj would need his cast to step up. It's been posted day after day here by you that he did it alone, no help. You've also said he could up his production to any level needed that's why he never lost a finals, so why not do it then? You said he could morph into steph curry at will and hit 3's when he felt the need, why didn't he do it then? He was the only great defender that mattered so why couldn't he hold them to few enough points? Or average a triple double for the series? Why not be 11/11 instead of 6/6? :coleman:

[3ball]

It's been posted day after day here by you that he did it alone, no help.


I've literally never said that - you just have below-average reading comprehension.. I said Jordan had far less help than Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, and Shaq... Which is true.


HOF Pippen was less help than:


HOF's Mchale, Parish, DJ

HOF's Kareem, Worthy

HOF's Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi

HOF's Wade, Bosh, Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


I can't include Horace Grant in the above list - he obviously doesn't belong.

MJ had far less help than any of those guys, which is why he needed to put up better STATS than all those guys, and why he's the goat... Deal with it.

[sdot_thadon]

I've literally never said that - you just have below-average reading comprehension.. I said Jordan had far less help than Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, and Shaq... Which is true.


HOF Pippen was less help than:


HOF's Mchale, Parish, DJ

HOF's Kareem, Worthy

HOF's Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi

HOF's Wade, Bosh, Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


I can't include Horace Grant in the above list - he obviously doesn't belong.

MJ had far less help than any of those guys, which is why he needed to put up better STATS than all those guys, and why he's the goat... Deal with it.
I guess I'll take that as a "I can't answer your question" seems like you hold a decidedly lesser player to a higher standard than the goat, that's quite odd. Hmm....


MJ had far less help than any of those guys, which is why he needed to put up better STATS than all those guys, and why he's the goat... Deal with it.
Again why didn't he do it in the other series then and win more titles then?

[kshutts1]

The Bulls took the Pistons 7 games in 1990 ECF, whereas the Blazers only took them 6 in the Finals.

Based on this, we can conclude that MJ's Bulls would've beaten Clyde's Blazers in 1990 Finals.

Unfortunately, Pippen famously disappeared in the critical Game 7 against Detroit.. He later admitted in the Bad Boys documentary (link below), that "the pressure" caused him to score only 2 points and 1-10 fg in the series-decider:


"..it was the pressure.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s



Pippen cost Bulls the 1990 championship.. :facepalm
.
Don't care about the discussion, don't care about what I may have missed in the other posts... all I care about is the thread title and what it says about 3ball's logic.

If the Bulls win in 1990, it is not "FACT" that they win the next 3.

You may make arguments as to why Pippen, and Pippen alone, cost the Bulls the win (which I would disagree with; team sport and all). You may state that the Bulls won the next 3 titles.

But making a change to history does not mean the same outcomes will follow said change, nor does it constitute "fact".

[3ball]

Again why didn't MJ do it in the other series then and win more titles then?



Boss, I'm surprised he won anything at all with just Pippen.

That's the baffling thing for me... I can't wrap my head around how he had the goat career (other than russell) with JUST Pippen.

Everyone else had so much more:


HOF Pippen was less help than:


HOF's Mchale, Parish, DJ

HOF's Kareem, Worthy

HOF's Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi

HOF's Wade, Bosh, Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


*** Horace Grant can't be included in above list - he obviously doesn't belong
.

[kshutts1]

I've literally never said that - you just have below-average reading comprehension.. I said Jordan had far less help than Magic, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, and Shaq... Which is true.


HOF Pippen was less help than:


HOF's Mchale, Parish, DJ

HOF's Kareem, Worthy

HOF's Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi

HOF's Wade, Bosh, Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


I can't include Horace Grant in the above list - he obviously doesn't belong.

MJ had far less help than any of those guys, which is why he needed to put up better STATS than all those guys, and why he's the goat... Deal with it.
And as a direct response, if you're going to "cherry pick" instances to make Jordan look better, at least be honest.

Jordan's HOF help: Pippen, Rodman, Jackson, Winter, with a likely inductee of Kerr.

And before you cry about the inclusion of Kerr, he has as much merit to be on this list as Ray Allen and Chris Bosh.

[Replay32]

Boss, I'm surprised he won anything at all with just Pippen.

That's the baffling thing for me... I can't wrap my head around how he had the goat career (other than russell) with JUST Pippen.

Everyone else had so much more, as seen in the quote above.
.

Maybe because they had a great coaching staff that put in a offense and defense system/strategy/game plan so players could succeed and do well as a TEAM. Maybe Grant and Pippen developed into better players. For all the praise Jordan gets, basketball is still a team game. And Pippen had series during their championship runs were he played just as great or better than Jordan. ECF in 1991 and 1993 come to mind. Pippen in his prime was a beast defensively too and was able to run the team when Jordan's ass was resting on the bench.

Bottom line is Jordan wouldn't of won jack without Jackson, Pip, Grant, Kuckoc, Rodman ect. They had a great mix of players that played really well together. Jordan had a lot more than just "Pippen" brah.

:coleman:

[97 bulls]

Dont see why. The Bulls had the best coach, and the best defense. Hell their assistant made the hall of fame.

Then during the second threepeat you add the best sixthman and best Rebounder and another hall of famer in Rodman.

Think about this Toni Kukoc was able to lead the Bulls to a 28 win pace in 99. Who was the next best player on that team after him? Old Ron Harper? Chris Bosh and Kevin Mchale were slightly more successful with far more talent.

[3ball]

And as a direct response, if you're going to "cherry pick" instances to make Jordan look better, at least be honest.

Jordan's HOF help: Pippen, Rodman, Jackson, Winter, with a likely inductee of Kerr.

And before you cry about the inclusion of Kerr, he has as much merit to be on this list as Ray Allen and Chris Bosh.
MJ's the only guy in history where people include 3 coaches as his supporting cast.

That proves he had the least supporting cast ever.. Thanks for making my point.

(as if Magic didn't have HOF Pat Riley, or Bird HOF coaches, or Duncan with Pop, or Kobe/Shaq with Phil... what a joke to include coaches, other than to prove my point)
.

[kshutts1]

MJ's the only guy in history where people include 3 coaches as his supporting talent.

That proves he had the least supporting talent ever.. Thanks for making my point.

(as if Magic didn't have HOF Pat Riley, or Bird HOF coaches, or Duncan with Pop, or Kobe with Phil... what a joke to include coaches, other than to prove my point)
Coaches matter.

And thanks for responding to my first post.

And for all your argument that Jordan allowed his teammates to play "optimally", thanks for comprehending the difference between abilities and roles.

And thanks for listing the 100 players better than Pippen.

And thanks for listing the 25 players better than Lebron.

[97 bulls]

MJ's the only guy in history where people include 3 coaches as his supporting talent.

That proves he had the least supporting talent ever.. Thanks for making my point.

(as if Magic didn't have HOF Pat Riley, or Bird HOF coaches, or Duncan with Pop, or Kobe with Phil... what a joke to include coaches, other than to prove my point)
Lol. So now coaches have no impact on a teams success? Even Jordan would laugh at you

[97 bulls]

And as a direct response, if you're going to "cherry pick" instances to make Jordan look better, at least be honest.

Jordan's HOF help: Pippen, Rodman, Jackson, Winter, with a likely inductee of Kerr.

And before you cry about the inclusion of Kerr, he has as much merit to be on this list as Ray Allen and Chris Bosh.
Don't forget Kukoc. He would've been an All-Star had he been on another team

[andgar923]

Not that I agree or disagree with 3Ball but he is right.

No other great has their coach mentioned.

I've never heard anybody say.. "But he had Red" or "But he had Pat"

[kshutts1]

Don't forget Kukoc. He would've been an All-Star had he been on another team
Not a HOF player, so not going to mention him. Not my silly parameter with which to rank supporting casts, but trying to follow his rules.

Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda, as they say.

[3ball]

Lol. So now coaches have no impact on a teams success? Even Jordan would laugh at you


I've never heard anyone include coaches when listing a star player's supporting cast.

People only do it with MJ because they can't find enough good PLAYERS on his team to compare to his peers.. With MJ, people literally change the traditional definition of "supporting cast" to include coaches, because there weren't enough great players to choose from on his squads.

But when talking about Magic's supporting cast, it doesn't OCCUR to anyone to change the definition of "supporting cast" to include coaches like HOF Coach Pat Riley, because people can easily identify numerous great players on Magic's teams.

Or when discussing Curry's supporting cast, it doesn't occur to anyone to change the definition to include HOF Jerry West, because the Warriors are stacked top to bottom...

Or when discussing Bird's supporting cast, they don't bring up HOF'er KC Jones.. Or when discussing Duncan's supporting cast, no one includes Pop in the Spurs Big 3 (or 4 including Kawhi).

And on and on... It doesn't OCCUR to anyone to include coaches with these guys' supporting casts, because they had tons of great PLAYERS that could fulfill the traditional definition of "supporting cast".

[kshutts1]

Ummm, what?

Phil is always mentioned alongside Kobe. Same thing with Popovich/Duncan, and Auerbach/Russell.
This.

Plus, praising the coach seems to be a more modern thing. In what I've read of NBA history, there doesn't seem to be much emphasis put on coaches. Perhaps I'm wrong, and Lazeruss or CavsFTW or Marchesk or one of the many knowledgeable posters here could correct me, but I have yet to see many coaches being applauded the way they are today.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

edited/double post:


Not that I agree or disagree with 3Ball but he is right.

No other great has their coach mentioned.

I've never heard anybody say.. "But he had Red" or "But he had Pat"

Ummm, what?

Phil is always mentioned alongside Kobe. Same thing with Popovich and Duncan.

Auerbach was the greatest and most talked about coach before Phil got 11 rings.

[andgar923]

Ummm, what?

Phil is always mentioned alongside Kobe. Same thing with Popovich and Duncan.

Auerbach was the greatest and most talked about coach before Phil got 11 rings.

What he meant was, they don't discredit those player's achievements because of their coaches.

Of course people will say "Kobe had Shaq" or "Russell won because of his HOF teammates" but it is very very rare that they attribute their success to their coach.

Not saying Phil didn't play a role in the Bulls' chips, nor that he aint a great coach. Simply that other great players don't get knocked for having a great coach.

And having said that, since people wanna count Phil as a reason for MJ's success, we should then do the same for every great. Count their great teammates along with their coaches.

[sdot_thadon]

Boss, I'm surprised he won anything at all with just Pippen.

That's the baffling thing for me... I can't wrap my head around how he had the goat career (other than russell) with JUST Pippen.

Everyone else had so much more:


HOF Pippen was less help than:


HOF's Mchale, Parish, DJ

HOF's Kareem, Worthy

HOF's Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi

HOF's Wade, Bosh, Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


*** Horace Grant can't be included in above list - he obviously doesn't belong
.
When you're on the opposite end of the discussion this is what you call an excuse. A shitty one at that.

[sdot_thadon]

What he meant was, they don't discredit those player's achievements because of their coaches.

Of course people will say "Kobe had Shaq" or "Russell won because of his HOF teammates" but it is very very rare that they attribute their success to their coach.

Not saying Phil didn't play a role in the Bulls' chips, nor that he aint a great coach. Simply that other great players don't get knocked for having a great coach.

And having said that, since people wanna count Phil as a reason for MJ's success, we should then do the same for every great. Count their great teammates along with their coaches.
And they just mentioned other instances where they are brought up. That's the dumbest thing about how Mj is spoken of, insinuating that he had help is somehow cutting him down.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This.

Plus, praising the coach seems to be a more modern thing. In what I've read of NBA history, there doesn't seem to be much emphasis put on coaches. Perhaps I'm wrong, and Lazeruss or CavsFTW or Marchesk or one of the many knowledgeable posters here could correct me, but I have yet to see many coaches being applauded the way they are today.

Yeah, but Auerbach was seemingly often talked about. Like when I used to read those old basketball almanacs he and Russell's approach to the game were discussed ad nauseum. :oldlol: Especially when they went H2H with Wilt.

Really just depends on where you're getting your info from.

ESPN and SportsCenter won't praise coaches, because highlights and hero ball are what sales. You'll rarely get pieces on Larry Brown - a guy who won at every coaching level.

[kshutts1]

Yeah, but Auerbach was seemingly often talked about. Like when I used to read those old basketball almanacs he and Russell's approach to the game were discussed quite often. Especially they went H2H with Wilt.

Really just depends on where you're getting your info from.

ESPN and SportsCenter won't praise coaches, because highlights and hero ball sales. You'll rarely get pieces on Larry Brown - a guy who won at every coaching level.
True. And I do remember a lot of information about Red.

But there is a huge information gap from Red to, say, Larry Brown. Lots of seemingly lost years. I've only heard negative things of most of those coaches.

Not sure if it's a product of living during the current seasons, or the information age, or what... but I feel like the average to advanced fan has a trove of information about even the good-but-not-great tier of coaches like Scott Skiles.

[3ball]

When you're on the opposite end of the discussion this is what you call an excuse. A shitty one at that.


It's all facts - MJ had FAR less help than Magic, Bird, Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan:


HOF Pippen was less help than:


HOF's Mchale, Parish, DJ

HOF's Kareem, Worthy

HOF's Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi

HOF's Wade, Bosh, Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


*** Horace Grant can't be included in above list - he obviously doesn't belong



AGAIN, I'M BAFFLED MJ WON ANYTHING AT ALL WITH JUST PIPPEN, WHILE THESE GUYS ALL NEEDED MANY MORE GREAT PLAYERS TO WIN

[97 bulls]

Not that I agree or disagree with 3Ball but he is right.

No other great has their coach mentioned.

I've never heard anybody say.. "But he had Red" or "But he had Pat"
Really????? Greg Popovich is never mentioned? Pat Riley? Red Auerbach,???????

[97 bulls]

Not that I agree or disagree with 3Ball but he is right.

No other great has their coach mentioned.

I've never heard anybody say.. "But he had Red" or "But he had Pat"
Really????? Greg Popovich is never mentioned? Pat Riley? Red Auerbach,???????

[sdot_thadon]

It's all facts - MJ had FAR less help than Magic, Bird, Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan:


HOF Pippen was less help than:


HOF's Mchale, Parish, DJ

HOF's Kareem, Worthy

HOF's Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi

HOF's Wade, Bosh, Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


*** Horace Grant can't be included in above list - he obviously doesn't belong



AGAIN, I'M BAFFLED MJ WON ANYTHING AT ALL WITH JUST PIPPEN, WHILE THESE GUYS ALL NEEDED MANY MORE GREAT PLAYERS TO WIN
Reposting it in defense of Mj doesn't it anymore true or make you any less of a hypocritical nut.

[97 bulls]

It's all facts - MJ had FAR less help than Magic, Bird, Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan:


HOF Pippen was less help than:


HOF's Mchale, Parish, DJ

HOF's Kareem, Worthy

HOF's Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi

HOF's Wade, Bosh, Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


*** Horace Grant can't be included in above list - he obviously doesn't belong



AGAIN, I'M BAFFLED MJ WON ANYTHING AT ALL WITH JUST PIPPEN, WHILE THESE GUYS ALL NEEDED MANY MORE GREAT PLAYERS TO WIN
What about Grant and Rodman?.and.Kukoc?

[sdot_thadon]

What about Grant and Rodman?.and.Kukoc?
They don't count because they played with Mj apparently, but all the other greats teammates count double.:biggums:

[97 bulls]

They don't count because they played with Mj apparently, but all the other greats teammates count double.:biggums:
Got it

[guy]

Really????? Greg Popovich is never mentioned? Pat Riley? Red Auerbach,???????

Definitely never hear about Duncan having Pop. I guess part of the reason is because Duncan didn't really have a chance to do anything without Pop since he's been there his whole career. Makes sense. What doesn't make sense is people acting like Jordan not winning without Phil for only 4 full seasons while he was a younger player on bad teams is that much different.

Riley doesn't get much credit partly because many people remember him more for losing to Jordan. No one really considers him on Phil's level. The funny thing is if he was the one with Jordan in the 90s he would be the one considered the GOAT coach. Another part of the reason is cause Magic and Kareem won without Riley. And somehow people idiotically conclude Jordan couldn't have won without Phil just cause he didn't in the limited time and overall bad situations he was in without Phil.

Red? People barely acknowledge his existence.

[3ball]

They don't count because they played with Mj apparently, but all the other greats teammates count double.


How am I supposed to include Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman with this group of supporting talent?


HOF's Mchale/Parish/DJ

HOF's Kareem/Worthy

HOF's Wade/Bosh

HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi


Do you really think Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman belong with these guys?.. It's ridiculous

[ShawkFactory]

How am I supposed to include Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman with this group of supporting talent?


HOF's Mchale/Parish/DJ

HOF's Kareem/Worthy

HOF's Wade/Bosh

HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi


Do you really think Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman belong with these guys?.. It's ridiculous
Apparently Ray Allen should have been there.

And you're including Kawhi Leonard, who has yet to make the all star team as a HOFer. :lol

Again, your arguments can't be taken seriously.

[3ball]

Apparently Ray Allen should have been there.

And you're including Kawhi Leonard, who has yet to make the all star team as a HOFer. :lol



My post was 100% fine.. It's not a stretch to say Kawhi will probably make the HOF... But I'll redo the post:


How am I supposed to include Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman with this group of supporting talent?


HOF's Mchale/Parish/DJ

HOF's Kareem/Worthy

HOF's Wade/Bosh

HOF's Parker/Ginobili


Do you really think Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman belong with these guys?.. It's ridiculous

**** Indeed, it should be noted that Magic had dpoy Michael Cooper off the bench, and Duncan had Kawhi, who was also DPOY... Meanwhile, Lebron enjoyed the presence of HOF Ray Allen, the GOAT shooter who saved his career.


Is that better?... :facepalm

[Smoke117]

My post was 100% fine.. It's not a stretch to say Kawhi will probably make the HOF... But I'll redo the post:


How am I supposed to include Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman with this group of supporting talent?


HOF's Mchale/Parish/DJ

HOF's Kareem/Worthy

HOF's Wade/Bosh

HOF's Parker/Ginobili


Do you really think Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman belong with these guys?.. It's ridiculous

**** Indeed, it should be noted that Magic had dpoy Michael Cooper off the bench, and Duncan had Kawhi, who was also DPOY... Meanwhile, Lebron enjoyed the presence of HOF Ray Allen, the GOAT shooter who saved his career.


Is that better?... :facepalm

The only point you are making is that for the majority of the 90s the talent was thinned out by expansion...good job. A lot of people are nostalgic about 90s basketball and yes there was a lot of talent, but expansion spread it out. Trying to compare the 80s celtics and lakers level of talent to the Bulls is just idiotic. (so right up your alley) It's also hilarious how you belittle a "35 year old Rodman" when you originally named a 37 year old Ray Allen on the heat like that means something. You are such a clown.

[3ball]

The only point you are making is that for the majority of the 90s the talent was thinned out by expansion...


30 teams back then and 30 teams now.

No difference whatsoever... try again

(this one was a particularly lame attempt at an argument)

[ShawkFactory]

30 teams back then and 30 teams now.

No difference whatsoever... try again

(this one was a particularly lame attempt at an argument)
What does that have to do with anything? Wasn't the argument about the 90s and help Jordan had?

[97 bulls]

My post was 100% fine.. It's not a stretch to say Kawhi will probably make the HOF... But I'll redo the post:


How am I supposed to include Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman with this group of supporting talent?


HOF's Mchale/Parish/DJ

HOF's Kareem/Worthy

HOF's Wade/Bosh

HOF's Parker/Ginobili


Do you really think Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman belong with these guys?.. It's ridiculous

**** Indeed, it should be noted that Magic had dpoy Michael Cooper off the bench, and Duncan had Kawhi, who was also DPOY... Meanwhile, Lebron enjoyed the presence of HOF Ray Allen, the GOAT shooter who saved his career.


Is that better?... :facepalm
Again selective facts. Manu was 36 when the Spurs won in 2014. Parish was 34 or 35 I believe. Kareem was 40 when the Lakers won in 88.

[3ball]

Again selective facts. Manu was 36 when the Spurs won in 2014.


MJ was 35 when the Bulls 3-peated.. **** a one-off ring.

And who cares.. Duncan had Ginobili for ALL his rings, back when Ginobili was in his 20's...

Then recently, dpoy and FMVP Kawhi joined the mix.. Duncan's cup runneth over alike a mother****er





Parish was 34 or 35 I think when Bird on in 1986.


Parish was 32 when Bird won his last ring.. nice try.. Don't you get tired of reaching for straws?

[ShawkFactory]

MJ was 35 when the Bulls 3-peated.. **** a one-off ring.

And who cares.. Duncan had Ginobili for ALL his rings, back when Ginobili was in his 20's...

Then recently, dpoy and FMVP Kawhi joined the mix.. Duncan's cup runneth over alike a mother****er



Parish was 32 when Bird won his last ring.. nice try.. Don't you get tired of reaching for straws?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-U9I1LIbOzuM/T9iV7QfEb5I/AAAAAAAAAJ8/OHk3jTTvK1E/s1600/iron-kettle.jpg

[97 bulls]

MJ was 35 when the Bulls 3-peated.. **** a one-off ring.

And who cares.. Duncan had Ginobili for ALL his rings, back when Ginobili was in his 20's...

Then recently, dpoy and FMVP Kawhi joined the mix.. Duncan's cup runneth over alike a mother****er



Parish was 32 when Bird won his last ring.. nice try.. Don't you get tired of reaching for straws?
Wait a minute. What does Jordan's age have to do with anything. You we're proping up Jordan.because he won with a 35 year old Rodman right? Well other players have.won with older players making key.contributions as well.

And.for the record. Jordan wasn't your avergae 35 year old. He didn't have a much.wear and tear on his bidy thanks to taking his two year hiatus

[LAZERUSS]

How am I supposed to include Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman with this group of supporting talent?


HOF's Mchale/Parish/DJ

HOF's Kareem/Worthy

HOF's Wade/Bosh

HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi


Do you really think Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman belong with these guys?.. It's ridiculous

We saw how Jordan fared against the best teams of the 80's...and it wasn't pretty.

In the watered down 90's, and with NOWHERE NEAR the same level of competition that was on the Sixers in the first half of the decade of the 80's; the Bad Boys in the second half of the 80's; and the Lakers and Celtics the entire decade of the 80's...

Put MJ's 90's Bulls into the 80's and he wouldn't have gone 6-8. Maybe 0-10.

[LAZERUSS]

How am I supposed to include Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman with this group of supporting talent?


HOF's Mchale/Parish/DJ

HOF's Kareem/Worthy

HOF's Wade/Bosh

HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi


Do you really think Grant, Kukoc or 35-year old Rodman belong with these guys?.. It's ridiculous

So in all scenarios...we exclude Pippen?

I would take Pippen and Grant, from '91 thru '94 without question over Wade and Bosh from '11 thru '14.

Not even close.

[LAZERUSS]

Pippen and Grant without MJ in '94...

Pippen 51-21, Grant 48-22.

Wade and Bosh in '15...

Wade 28-34, Bosh 22-30.

[3ball]

I would take Pippen and Grant, from '91 thru '94 without question over Wade and Bosh from '11 thru '14.


Of course - Pippen was 25, while Wade was 30.

But if you compare them at the same age - Pippen's 1996-1998 playoff stats vs. Wade's from 2011-2014 - Wade's are better:

Wade.. 2011-2014: 20/5/4 on 47.5%
Pippen 1996-1998: 17/7/5 on 40.8%


If you want to compare 25 year old Pippen to someone, compare him to 25-year old Wade... See how that works out... Prime Pippen is a "bum" compared to prime Wade (those aren't my words... those are Shaq's)

[LAZERUSS]

Of course - Pippen was 25, while Wade was 30.

But if you compare them at the same age - Pippen's 1996-1998 playoff stats vs. Wade's from 2011-2014 - Wade's are better:

Wade.. 2011-2014: 20/5/4 on 47.5%
Pippen 1996-1998: 17/7/5 on 40.8%


If you want to compare 25 year old Pippen to someone, compare him to 25-year old Wade... See how that works out... Prime Pippen is a "bum" compared to prime Wade (those aren't my words... those are Shaq's)

Did a 25 year old Wade play with Lebron?

Lebron had a broken down has-been for three years, and not much better in the other one.

MJ had a PEAK Pippen for three years, and then a PEAK Pippen carried an MJ-less team to a 51-21 record.

GTFO.

[3ball]

PEAK Pippen carried an MJ-less team to a 51-21 record.


Only after the Bulls had developed a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork from 3-peating with MJ..

But before MJ led them to a 3-peat, the Bulls were lottery without MJ - like in 1989, when the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 42-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8.. Where as Pippen then?..

The playoff reality was that the Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, and a 3-peat dynasty with him..

You'll NEVER get past those facts.
.

[LAZERUSS]

Only after the Bulls had developed a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork from 3-peating with MJ.

The playoff reality was that the Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, and a 3-peat dynasty with him..

You'll NEVER get past those facts.

Pure BULLSHIT.

They were an even WORSE second round team in '95 WITH Jordan.

Funny...MJ couldn't win shit before Pippen and Grant arrived. I wonder who taught whom how to win?

[3ball]

Pure BULLSHIT.


What's bullshit?

The Bulls only won 55 games AFTER they had developed a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy and teamwork from 3-peating with MJ.

This is a fact.. If you don't agree, tell me SPECIFICALLY which part of the sentence above is not factual.

Of course, before MJ led them to a 3-peat, the Bulls were lottery without MJ - like in 1989, when the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 42-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8.. Where as Pippen then?..

Nowhere.. Pippen was a baby sucking on MJ's proverbial titty while MJ led that lottery team to 6 games with the champs (the goat impact on a lottery team).
.

[97 bulls]

Only after the Bulls had developed a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy, and teamwork from 3-peating with MJ..

But before MJ led them to a 3-peat, the Bulls were lottery without MJ - like in 1989, when the 47-win Bulls needed MJ's 33/8/8 to make the 42-win playoff cut.. Where as Pippen then?.. Nowhere

The playoff reality was that the Bulls were a 2nd Round team without MJ, and a 3-peat dynasty with him..

You'll NEVER get past those facts.
Youbkeep saying this. But what does it prove. As I told you in the other thread. No team has been as successful as the Bulls under similar circumstances. Meaning roughly the same core, battle tested in the playoffs, and plenty of championship experience. But one caveat.....the Bulls didnt find a suitable replacement for Jordan. The other teams did have decent to very good replacements.

The other teams failed miserably. They either didn't make the playoffs or were swept in the first round.

And your rebuttal is those teams didn't threepeat. Even though mist either made it to at least four finals and won at least two and did win back to back.

[LAZERUSS]

What's bullshit?

The Bulls only won 55 games AFTER they had developed a 3-peat caliber of execution, strategy and teamwork from 3-peating with MJ.

This is a fact.. If you don't agree, tell me SPECIFICALLY which part of the sentence above is not factual.

Of course, before MJ led them to a 3-peat, the Bulls were lottery without MJ - like in 1989, when the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 42-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8.. Where as Pippen then?..

Nowhere.. Pippen was a baby sucking on MJ's proverbial titty while MJ led that lottery team to 6 games with the champs (the goat impact on a lottery team).

Pippen and Grant were KEY COMPONENTS of those "three-peat" teams. MJ does not beat either the Pistons, nor the Lakers in the '91 post-season without those two and their HUGE contributions. And they would continue to massively contribute in all three title runs.

It wasn't as if those two were riding the bench in those three years.

Furthermore...just how much of a factor was GRANT? Well, the '95 Bulls added 20 ppg Harper to a roster that went 55-27 without MJ. So, they basically replaced Grant with Jordan in '95...and were WORSE in the '95 post-season WITH Jordan, than they were in the '94 run WITHOUT MJ.

Oh, and in the '95 post-season...how did GRANT do against Jordan's Bulls?

MJ needed not only Harper on a 55 win roster...but had to have a HOF PF come in in '96 to win another ring.

What is not FACTUAL about ALL of the above?

[3ball]

Pippen and Grant were KEY COMPONENTS of those "three-peat" teams.


None of that matters - HOF Pippen is less help than:


HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ

HOF's Kareem/Worthy

HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi

HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


As you can see, I can't even include Horace Grant in the above list - he doesn't belong - he'd be the lone orange in a bowl full of apples.. :confusedshrug:






1) the '95 Bulls added 20 ppg Harper

2) but had to have a HOF PF come in in '96 to win another ring.

3) the Bulls were WORSE in the '95 post-season WITH Jordan, than they were in the '94 run WITHOUT MJ.


What is not FACTUAL about ALL of the above?


1) Harper was not a 20 ppg scorer - he was averaging exactly 6.9 ppg when MJ returned at the end of the 1995 regular season.

2) They didn't need Rodman or a HOF power forward to win rings... All they needed was an 11/8 guy that played decent defense - they proved that by 3-peating in 1991-1993 with 11/8 Horace Grant.

3) The Bulls were not the same because of no chemistry - this is a fact - when MJ came back in 1995, every single player on the roster was new, except Pippen.. The Bulls went from 3-peat chemistry in 1994, to square 1 in 1995 with a completely new team and only 17 games to prepare, while the rest of the league got the entire year to prepare..

But in MJ's first full season back, he returned the Bulls to a championship and eventual 3-peat, thus validating his goat 3-peat to 2nd Round impact.

[kshutts1]

3ball,

Legit question, because I'm legit curious. Can you please give me some background on yourself?

Age? When did you start watching ball? Playing? What attracted you to the sport? Who's your favorite all time player? Least favorite? What's the single greatest moment you ever saw, in the NBA, live? What did Pippen do to your mother? After whom did you model your game? When did you become so stats-focused? Do you have a strong math/analytics background?

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/NvZjP5m.gif

http://i.imgur.com/pHsSA51.gif



When did you become so stats-focused?

No one uses more GIFs than me... No one has a better eye test than me... in the whole world.. Maybe Jerry West... Nah, not even

The only reason I started using stats was because you guys said I used to many GIFs and eye test.

I don't even bother broach half the shit I know because no one would have a clue what I'm talking about.
.

[97 bulls]

http://i.imgur.com/NvZjP5m.gif

http://i.imgur.com/pHsSA51.gif


No one uses more GIFs than me... No one has a better eye test than me... in the whole world.. Maybe Jerry West... Nah, not even

The only reason I started using stats was because you guys said I used to many GIFs and eye test.

I don't even bother broach half the shit I know because no one would have a clue what I'm talking about.
.
Using a gif is not the same as the eye test. A gif is another way to cherry pick a situation. Something you're good at.

I often wonder how you can call an injured player a choker.

[sdot_thadon]

I don't even bother broach half the shit I know because no one would have a clue what I'm talking about.
.
Why don't you start with broaching ****ing reality 1st bro, then maybe someone will take you as more than a joke.

You keep saying pippen cost the bulls a 4peat while out the other side of your mouth saying he wasn't great help. Can't have it both ways man, why didn't Mj do all the amazing things he could do on command and win the series? You know up his volume at will, morph into Reggie miller on cue, off ball passing, chest to chest, etc? Your logic is shit sir.

[97 bulls]

The Bulls were not the same because of no chemistry - this is a fact - when MJ came back in 1995, every single player on the roster was new, except Pippen.. The Bulls went from 3-peat chemistry in 1994, to square 1 in 1995 with a completely new team and only 17 games to prepare, while the rest of the league got the entire year to prepare..*
Kukoc, Kerr, Myers, and Longley werent even on the 1st threepeat team. Scott Williams was hurt most of the year. Staacy King was traded for Longley. John Paxson was used sparringly. Their core had chemistry. But the team as a whole? Not so much. If you "witnessed" this like you say then you would know this.

This is why I say you use selective facts.

[Dragonyeuw]

3ball, if Pippen was as crappy as you've often argued across your various threads and posts, how then did he cost the Bulls a title? Your argument is built on a narrative that MJ took the Bulls to championships with little help, requiring him to score at GOAT levels. There are about 1000 posts on this forum we can dig up where you say that, since you cut and paste the same crud over and over and over. So with that said, if Pippen was a bum like Shaq claims( and you agreed with in the other thread), then his failing to come through in 1990 is of no consequence to what happened that year.

FFS, I can't believe I'm actually arguing with someone * against * MJ here.

[r15mohd]

3ball, if Pippen was as crappy as you've often argued across your various threads and posts, how then did he cost the Bulls a title? Your argument is built on a narrative that MJ took the Bulls to championships with little help, requiring him to score at GOAT levels. There are about 1000 posts on this forum we can dig up where you say that, since you cut and paste the same crud over and over and over. So with that said, if Pippen was a bum like Shaq claims( and you agreed with in the other thread), then his failing to come through in 1990 is of no consequence to what happened that year.

FFS, I can't believe I'm actually arguing with someone * against * MJ here.

he makes all MJ fans have some dislike with the way he carries on and tries to prove his agenda :banghead:

[TheMan]

he makes all MJ fans have some dislike with the way he carries on and tries to prove his agenda :banghead:
3ball is so MJ obsessed it makes us regular Bulls/MJ fans cringe :oldlol:

[3ball]

huh?

[3ball]

HOF Pippen is less help than:


HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ

HOF's Kareem/Worthy

HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi

HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


As you can see, I can't even include Horace Grant in the above list - he doesn't belong - he'd be like a dry apple in a bowl full of juicy mangoes




3ball, if Pippen was as crappy as you've often argued across your various threads and posts, how then did he cost the Bulls a title?


Huh?.. you can't be serious.. you're asking me how did Pippen's crappiness cost the Bulls the title?

What kind of question is that?... That's one of those questions that provides the answer within the question itself.. Your question answered itself.

But if you're still confused, re-read the OP boss.. the explanation is pretty clear... from Potty Pip's own mouth.

[bond10]

The real question is which Bulls squad wins more championships if we swap out Pippen or Jordan with:

Jordan+Glen Rice
Jordan+Grant Hill
Jordan+Dominque

Pippen+Clyde Drexler
Pippen+Reggie Miller
Pippen+Mitch Richmond

[Dragonyeuw]

Huh?.. you can't be serious.. you're asking me how did Pippen's crappiness cost the Bulls the title?

What kind of question is that?... That's one of those questions that provides the answer within the question itself.. Your question answered itself.

But if you're still confused, re-read the OP boss.. the explanation is pretty clear... from Potty Pip's own mouth.

Yes, I am serious. You have hundreds of posts on here where you've trivialized Pippen as a player. Do we need to bring up your cut and paste bile about how MJ had less help than other GOAT candidates? How he had to score at GOAT levels due to lack of help?

So I'll play along with you and agree that Scottie was a glorified role player, a bit player hanging on MJ's coattails riding him to 6 titles. Why would such a marginal player be the reason the Bulls didn't win the 1990 title? :confusedshrug: Because on one side of your mouth, MJ carried the largest burden in history and pretty much won titles by his greatness alone, and on the other side a glorified role player is responsible for the Bulls not winning. Which one is it?

[andgar923]

The real question is which Bulls squad wins more championships if we swap out Pippen or Jordan with:

Jordan+Glen Rice
Jordan+Grant Hill
Jordan+Dominque

Pippen+Clyde Drexler
Pippen+Reggie Miller
Pippen+Mitch Richmond

Pip none

but

What if MJ had Stacy Augmon from day 1?
Grant Hill?
Sean Elliot?
Reggie Lewis?
Todd Day?
Ed O'Bannon?

We don't know what their careers would've turned out to be if they played with MJ from day 1. Every day in practice, MJ taking them under his wing making them mentally tough, and making them better defenders.

So it's easy to dismiss some of these players now, but what if?

[Lebron23]

Pip none

but

What if MJ had Stacy Augmon from day 1?
Grant Hill?
Sean Elliot?
Reggie Lewis?
Todd Day?
Ed O'Bannon?

We don't know what their careers would've turned out to be if they played with MJ from day 1. Every day in practice, MJ taking them under his wing making them mentally tough, and making them better defenders.

So it's easy to dismiss some of these players now, but what if?


I really hate you Jordan Worshipers. Pippen was a very good player in College. And even without Jordan he played in the 2000's Western Conference Finals.

Pippen had the length and talent to be a very good player in the NBA.

[3ball]

You have hundreds of posts on here where you've trivialized Pippen as a player.


I'm merely stating the truth, which is an opinion shared by many people who were THERE - Shaq is just the latest... Isiah said the same thing... Laimbeer said the same thing.

It shouldn't be a surprise that the leaders of the Pistons felt Pippen was garbage, considering their entire defense was designed to stop MJ (here's Chuck Daly specifically talking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s) about the "Jordan Rules").

It's just like Laimbeer said, they "didn't even THINK about Pippen".. Laimbeer used that exact inflection (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s) in his voice when he said "think".





Do we need to bring up your cut and paste bile about how MJ had less help than other GOAT candidates? How he had to score at GOAT levels due to lack of help?


Wow dude.. You're having a hard time accepting that the sky is blue.

Pippen IS much less help than all those guys - unless you think Pippen is MORE help than Kareem/Worthy, or Mchale/Parish/DJ, or Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi, etc, etc..

In which case, let's just agree to disagree on that, and I'd recommend you get some help (i hear aj1987 knows some people)





So I'll play along with you and I'll agree that Scottie was a glorified role player, a bit player hanging on MJ's coattails riding him to 6 titles. Why would such a marginal player be the reason the Bulls didn't win the 1990 title?


because he was the 2nd option, yet he was the bolded above - you answered your own question again.
.

[Lebron23]

Pippen averaged 24 ppg, and 10 rpg in College. He wasn't some Division II or II scrubs who suddenly became a great NBA player.

[kshutts1]

Huh?.. you can't be serious.. you're asking me how did Pippen's crappiness cost the Bulls the title?

What kind of question is that?... That's one of those questions that provides the answer within the question itself.. Your question answered itself.

But if you're still confused, re-read the OP boss.. the explanation is pretty clear... from Potty Pip's own mouth.
I'm fairly certain that is point is that we don't hold losses against "scrubs".

No one ever cites Matthew Dellavedova as a reason the Cavs lost this finals.
No one points to Kirk Hinrich and points to him being the reason the Bulls couldn't get past Lebron.
No one says Kareem Rush is the reason the Lakers lost the title in 2004.

We only praise or ignore "scrubs".
We only blame stars and coaches.

[andgar923]

I really hate you Jordan Worshipers. Pippen was a very good player in College. And even without Jordan he played in the 2000's Western Conference Finals.

Pippen had the length and talent to be a very good player in the NBA.

Newsflash.... ALMOST EVERY PLAYER IN THE NBA WAS VERY GOOD IN COLLEGE.

There are first rounders and top picks that have fallen into obscurity, and there's late round picks that become HOFers, but they don't make the NBA without being good.

You guys act like Pip was leading teams in the NCAA Final 4 vs Duke, UNC, UMass etc.etc.

There's been 'community college' players that became all stars, players walking off the street that got NBA contracts and wrecked.

It takes more than raw talent to make it in the NBA and become great thereafter.

What MJ did for Pip was make him tougher both mentally and physically. He made him a better defender and allowed him to flourish on the court by taking the pressure off him. This is all well documented as FACT, MJ essentially molded Pip into the player he became.

Without MJ we may not even know who Pip is today.:confusedshrug:

Rookie Pip stats:

7.9pts 3.8 boards 2.1 assists .463 fg% .576 ft%

That sure as f*k sounds like an all star player!!!


Steve Francis coming straight out of a community college was easily superior.

[3ball]

I'm fairly certain that is point is that we don't hold losses against "scrubs".


hell yeah we do - none of the guys you listed were 2nd options.

but if a 2nd option plays like a scrub, he deserves blame for the loss (Pippen).

i suggest you re-read the OP... denial is a helluva drug

[Dragonyeuw]

I'm merely stating the truth, which is an opinion shared by many people who were THERE - Shaq is just the latest... Isiah said the same thing... Laimbeer said the same thing.

It shouldn't be a surprise that the leaders of the Pistons felt Pippen was garbage, considering their entire defense was designed to stop MJ (here's Chuck Daly specifically talking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s) about the "Jordan Rules").

It's just like Laimbeer said, they "didn't even THINK about Pippen".. Laimbeer used that exact inflection (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s) in his voice when he said "think".



Wow dude.. You're having a hard time accepting that the sky is blue.

Pippen IS much less help than all those guys - unless you think Pippen is MORE help than Kareem/Worthy, or Mchale/Parish/DJ, or Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi, etc, etc..

In which case, let's just agree to disagree on that, and I'd recommend you get some help (i hear aj1987 knows some people)



because he was the 2nd option, yet he was the bolded above - you answered your own question again.
.

So basically:

3ball left side of mouth: Pippen was a bum, a glorified role player, unimportant per various comments from Shaq, Laimbeer, etc etc etc etc etc who Jordan had to carry along with the other Bulls. No-one that had to be game-planned for yadda yadda...

3ball right side of mouth: Pippen was a vital component of the Bulls and was the sole reason they didn't win the 1990 title.

Got it.

[Lebron23]

Newsflash.... ALMOST EVERY PLAYER IN THE NBA WAS VERY GOOD IN COLLEGE.

There are first rounders and top picks that have fallen into obscurity, and there's late round picks that become HOFers, but they don't make the NBA without being good.

You guys act like Pip was leading teams in the NCAA Final 4 vs Duke, UNC, UMass etc.etc.

There's been 'community college' players that became all stars, players walking off the street that got NBA contracts and wrecked.

It takes more than raw talent to make it in the NBA and become great thereafter.

What MJ did for Pip was make him tougher both mentally and physically. He made him a better defender and allowed him to flourish on the court by taking the pressure off him. This is all well documented as FACT, MJ essentially molded Pip into the player he became.

Without MJ we may not even know who Pip is today.:confusedshrug:

Rookie Pip stats:

7.9pts 3.8 boards 2.1 assists .463 fg% .576 ft%

That sure as f*k sounds like an all star player!!!


Steve Francis coming straight out of a community college was easily superior.

Pippen was a late bloomer. Not everyone is as good as LeBron, Melo and Durant in their Rookie Season.

[3ball]

So basically:

Pippen was a bum, a glorified role player, unimportant per various comments from Shaq, Laimbeer, etc etc etc etc etc who Jordan had to carry along with the other Bulls. No-one that had to be game-planned for yadda yadda...


if a 2nd option plays like a scrub, he deserves blame for the loss (Pippen).

i suggest you re-read the OP... denial is a helluva drug

[kshutts1]

hell yeah we do - none of the guys you listed were 2nd options.

but if a 2nd option plays like a scrub, he deserves blame for the loss (Pippen).

i suggest you re-read the OP... denial is a helluva drug
Very key point right here.

I'll even rehash it, with emphasis, to make his point (and please correct me if I'm wrong as to this being your point)...

"...but if a 2nd option plays LIKE a scrub, he deserves blame for the loss (Pippen)."

Playing "like" a scrub is not the same as BEING a scrub.

[tpols]

Pip none

but

What if MJ had Stacy Augmon from day 1?
Grant Hill?
Sean Elliot?
Reggie Lewis?
Todd Day?
Ed O'Bannon?

We don't know what their careers would've turned out to be if they played with MJ from day 1. Every day in practice, MJ taking them under his wing making them mentally tough, and making them better defenders.

So it's easy to dismiss some of these players now, but what if?


This dude thinks MJ could turn Ed O'Bannon into a top 25 GOAT... :facepalm



Why did Jordan make no one better but pippen.. ? everyone else, more or less did the same or better w/o MJ.. all his recruits that he tried to train and embarrass in practice to 'toughen' them up, all failed miserably. Meanwhile, Grant and Pippen had same great impact level of play in years without Jordan altogether.. mindblowing delusion here.

[Dragonyeuw]

if a 2nd option plays like a scrub, he deserves blame for the loss (Pippen).

i suggest you re-read the OP... denial is a helluva drug

I deny nothing. What you are in essence saying is that Pippen actually WAS important enough to be a cause for the Bulls losing if he underperformed......except when he was a bum, unimportant, MJ GOAT scoring, yadda yadda, etc etc, and yadda yadda. Two sides of your mouth, unable to get along with each other. Guess it depends on what pro-MJ agenda you're on that given day.

[andgar923]

This dude thinks MJ could turn Ed O'Bannon into a top 25 GOAT... :facepalm



Why did Jordan make no one better but pippen.. ? everyone else, more or less did the same or better w/o MJ.. all his recruits that he tried to train and embarrass in practice to 'toughen' them up, all failed miserably. Meanwhile, Grant and Pippen had same great impact level of play in years without Jordan altogether.. mindblowing delusion here.

What do you mean who else did he make better?

He made his entire TEAM better!

PIp had the talent to become a good player, but so do many players coming into the league, it's called POTENTIAL. And players get signed based on said POTENTIAL.

Rip Hamilton actually gave Mj props for showing him how to be a better player, and so have a number of players. They've said that MJ has showed them how to prepare, how to be a professional and what to work on. Some have worked out with him and mentioned he pushed them to be better and showed them the game. People from Melo, to Wade have given him props in helping them.

Oh... and then there's this one guy who he's mentored.

http://lakerholicz.com/kobe-bryant-on-his-relationship-with-michael-jordan/2013/08/28

There was another link (can'tt find it) that talked about Mj being on the phone with Kobe for hours, and how MJ would let Kobe pick his brain.

[kshutts1]

What do you mean who else did he make better?

He made his entire TEAM better!

PIp had the talent to become a good player, but so do many players coming into the league, it's called POTENTIAL. And players get signed based on said POTENTIAL.

Rip Hamilton actually gave Mj props for showing him how to be a better player, and so have a number of players. They've said that MJ has showed them how to prepare, how to be a professional and what to work on. Some have worked out with him and mentioned he pushed them to be better and showed them the game. People from Melo, to Wade have given him props in helping them.

Oh... and then there's this one guy who he's mentored.

http://lakerholicz.com/kobe-bryant-on-his-relationship-with-michael-jordan/2013/08/28

There was another link (can'tt find it) that talked about Mj being on the phone with Kobe for hours, and how MJ would let Kobe pick his brain.
Literally ever vet does this. And that makes it a perfect example of what I hate about MJ worshippers. They take something that is impressive, but not all that uncommon and make it sound like something only Jordan could do... or something that is not at all quantifiable and state unequivocally that it's Jordan's doing, and call it proof.

[kshutts1]

Very key point right here.

I'll even rehash it, with emphasis, to make his point (and please correct me if I'm wrong as to this being your point)...

"...but if a 2nd option plays LIKE a scrub, he deserves blame for the loss (Pippen)."

Playing "like" a scrub is not the same as BEING a scrub.
Did I find something that 3ball's warped MJ mind can't refute? Or is he just not on the site?

[andgar923]

Literally ever vet does this. And that makes it a perfect example of what I hate about MJ worshippers. They take something that is impressive, but not all that uncommon and make it sound like something only Jordan could do... or something that is not at all quantifiable and state unequivocally that it's Jordan's doing, and call it proof.

No not every vet does this.

And nobody stated that ONLY Mj could do it, there's been many examples of vets making younger players better. But what MJ did, was make young players all stars and HOFers, make journeymen into champions, and make a struggling organization into a dynasty.

That't the difference between MJ and others.

Only a 'handful' of greats can claim the same, and that's what separates them from the rest, and what separates MJ from them.

Don't twist my posts, because never did I ever state MJ was the ONLY one.

[kshutts1]

No not every vet does this.

And nobody stated that ONLY Mj could do it, there's been many examples of vets making younger players better. But what MJ did, was make young players all stars and HOFers, make journeymen into champions, and make a struggling organization into a dynasty.

That't the difference between MJ and others.

Only a 'handful' of greats can claim the same, and that's what separates them from the rest, and what separates MJ from them.

Don't twist my posts, because never did I ever state MJ was the ONLY one.
You're right. You didn't. :facepalm

Whether you technically did or not, however, is irrelevant, as you clearly implied it. And you use this "vet mentorship" as an example of why Jordan is better... when it is commonplace to do such things.

Again, this particular "example" is just another one of MJ's "legends" that is a legend only because it's about MJ. It's rarely mentioned who mentors whom; it's not tracked which mentorship helped players reach AS status, much less HOF status.

Aside from the implied statement that Jordan was the "only" one to do so, it's just a silly argument regardless, because no one cares about such mentorships and the success of them beyond Jordan worshippers. Never, ever seen it argued otherwise.

I've seen people argue that Duncan and Russell and Magic helped create cultures that fostered winning, but not that they, individually, molded/mentored players to become HOFers.

[3ball]

What you are saying is that Pippen actually WAS important enough to be a cause for the Bulls losing if he underperformed


By definition, 2nd options are important to all teams - when they underperform and/or play like scrubs, they should be blamed for losses, like Pippen does for Game 7 of 1990 ECF.

The funny thing is that it's widely known and documented that Pippen choked in Game 7 of 1990 ECF... It's amazing how people are denying what is considered one of the epic chokes in history..

It's so well-known, that Pippen ADMITTED his poor performance was due to the "pressure".. Like, he's not refuting it.. Yet you are... :applause:

[Dragonyeuw]

It's so well-known, that Pippen ADMITTED his poor performance was due to the "pressure".. Like, he's not refuting it.. Yet you are... :applause:

Actually, I'm not. I'm merely showing you how hypocritical your views are. If Pippen is that important that his subpar play was the cause for the Bulls not winning the 1990 title, then he can't be the unimportant, glorified, role playing bum you argue him to be whenever you go on one of your redundant MJ IS GOD rants.

I'm fully aware that Pippen playing up to capability in 1990 may have swayed history( along with the rest of Bulls supporting players not sucking ass that game 7), and that's my point. Unlike you, I recognize Pippen's value and greatness in his own right, and don't feel the need to tear him down just to prop up MJ like you do. There's a number of hardcore MJ fans on this site, I count myself as one of them but I don't lack objectivity. You, on the other hand, are so far to the extreme that you're almost a caricature or parody.

You cherrypick a part of my post but again seem unable to answer how double standard your views are. I guess you don't have a reply for that typed up on your MS word ready to cut and paste.

[tpols]

What do you mean who else did he make better?

He made his entire TEAM better!
.


His teammates all made all star games the year after he retired.. and were on a 60+ win pace barring injuries. They also had the best defensive season of the entire Bulls tenure up to that point in 94.

How much more evidence do you need? :lol


Jordan is in the mold of a takeover/pure individual dominance.. opposite of in the flow player like pippen who makes guys better throughout the game but cant close well, while Jordan doesn't really make anyone better than they already were with his selfish attitude, yelling and pointing fingers.. but he's the best takeover player ever which is why hes GOAT.


But this whole MJ made all his teammates.. such a joke.

[andgar923]

His teammates all made all star games the year after he retired...

That IS the definition of making teammates better.

You instill the confidence, the toughness, the discipline, etc.etc necessary for them to succeed.

MJ pushing them, demanding them, and challenging them to be great is what leadership is all about. It is the essence of making teammates better.

do you guys not understand what 'leadership' is?

It isn't making a pass for an easy basket, it isn't about telling people where to go on defense, it's more than just that. And you hear the greats and teammates of greats talk about it all the time.

But it isn't limited to just sports but life in general.

Some of you either don't want to get it.
Simply don't get it.
Haven't been exposed to it.
Or aren't it.

Btw.. in order to be a leader one needs to learn how to be led. You can't be a great leader if you don't know how to follow. Which is something people in the military should be familiar with.

[3ball]

I'm fully aware that Pippen playing up to capability in 1990 may have swayed history and that's my point.

(But) don't feel the need to tear him down just to prop up MJ like you do.



I don't tear Pippen down - I merely present facts, such as the following:


HOF Pippen is less help than:


HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ

HOF's Kareem/Worthy

HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi

HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


As you can see, I can't even include Horace Grant in the above list - he doesn't belong.



I just present these facts, along with the consensus that the Bulls were all about MJ:


Shaq Diesel on Pippen:

"You were not the main focus of the six rings. Don't make me pull up the scouting report. You wasn't even a factor on the scouting report. It was all about Mike."



Chuck Daly specifically discussing the "Jordan Rules":


"We knew how dangerous he was. And we knew we had to devise something special.. And so we most definitely devised, what we called, THE JORDAN RULES"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s




Bill Laimbeer:


"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s




Phil Jackson:


"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not TIME yet."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s

This was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything down the stretch of games.




Chuck Daly:


"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s




Horace Grant:


"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s


Dumars and Isiah:


"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and i were on the phone for HOURS, talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

This was Dumars' and Isiah's reaction to the Bulls taking 2-1 series lead in 1989 ECF after MJ hit GW over Rodman.





Reporter Pat O'Brien in 1989, confirming that Chuck Daly's championship defense was about stopping 1 guy via the "Jordan Rules":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=3m27s




Bill Laimbeer:


"The Jordan Rules were just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=1m22s




Scottie Pippen:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell.."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

This was Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary ADMITTING he the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7 - this cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals and the ring - (Bulls would've beaten Blazers - Blazers only took Pistons 6, while Bulls took then 7.

[andgar923]

You're right. You didn't. :facepalm

Whether you technically did or not, however, is irrelevant, as you clearly implied it. And you use this "vet mentorship" as an example of why Jordan is better... when it is commonplace to do such things.

Again, this particular "example" is just another one of MJ's "legends" that is a legend only because it's about MJ. It's rarely mentioned who mentors whom; it's not tracked which mentorship helped players reach AS status, much less HOF status.

Aside from the implied statement that Jordan was the "only" one to do so, it's just a silly argument regardless, because no one cares about such mentorships and the success of them beyond Jordan worshippers. Never, ever seen it argued otherwise.

I've seen people argue that Duncan and Russell and Magic helped create cultures that fostered winning, but not that they, individually, molded/mentored players to become HOFers.

If you feel I 'implied' such thing, that's YOU and your problem.

We are talking about MJ here, not Bill Russell, not Magic, not Zeke, not Bird.

If you want we can and they'll be in the same boat as MJ as players making others great.

But they aren't part of the discussion are they?

And if there is any separation between MJ and others, is the FACT that MJ managed to win more than most of his peers. Not just win, but win 6 in a row and how they won.

But let me be very clear.... I am NOT once again before your panties get all twisted.. I am NOT stating that MJ was the only player to make his teammates better and be a great leader. Just that he separates himself from players like Kobe, Chuck, Bron, Ewing, Malone, etc.etc.

MJ, Bird, Zeke, Russell, Magic, are simply on a different level.

Does that make you happy now?

Do I need to spell things out and make shit clearer for you, or are you still gonna 'assume' shit?

[Smoke117]

^^^ What the ****? Why doesn't 3ball ever get banned? He literally makes the same posts over and over and over again. I must have seen that same god damn post at least a dozen times in the last week.

[tpols]

That IS the definition of making teammates better.

You instill the confidence, the toughness, the discipline, etc.etc necessary for them to succeed.
.

*rubs eyes*

Is that you 3ball ?

[andgar923]

*rubs eyes*

Is that you 3ball ?

You caught me.

Want me to post gifs to prove it?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9ra5uZ2uW1rrbogso3_500.gif

[Smoke117]

*rubs eyes*

Is that you 3ball ?

Andgar has been an obnoxious jordan stan for, forever now. You really should just move on Kshutts...you can't argue or debate with delusion and insanity.

[bond10]

*rubs eyes*

Is that you 3ball ?

He has a point...if your teammates are improved during and after you leave, didn't you just make them better?

[fpliii]

^^^ What the ****? Why doesn't 3ball ever get banned? He literally makes the same posts over and over and over again. I must have seen that same god damn post at least a dozen times in the last week.
I don't agree with his take 100% of the time but he posts pure basketball discussion. Even if someone doesn't agree with his opinion I don't know how you can ban someone for that.

[andgar923]

Andgar has been an obnoxious jordan stan for, forever now. You really should just move on Kshutts...you can't argue or debate with delusion and insanity.
suck my d*ck


http://myveganjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/duck1.jpg

[97 bulls]

I don't agree with his take 100% of the time but he posts pure basketball discussion. Even if someone doesn't agree with his opinion I don't know how you can ban someone for that.
I don't think he should be banned. BUT he is a troll. He makes stuff up, twist quotes, refuses to acknowledge when he is wrong. And not that he should acknowledge it but why continue to say something when you know its not true? Like when he says the Bulls had the same exact team from 93 to 94. Thats not true. I show him, then he goes into another threas posting the same BS.

[Smoke117]

I don't agree with his take 100% of the time but he posts pure basketball discussion. Even if someone doesn't agree with his opinion I don't know how you can ban someone for that.

I'm saying he literally makes the same post over and over. That post with the quotes...he probably has made that same post in some form half a dozen times in this thread alone and deleted it and posted it again.


suck my d*ck

That maturity. :kobe:

[fpliii]

I don't think he should be banned. BUT he is a troll. He makes stuff up, twist quotes, refuses to acknowledge when he is wrong. And not that he should acknowledge it but why continue to say something when you know its not true? Like when he says the Bulls had the same exact team from 93 to 94. Thats not true. I show him, then he goes into another threas posting the same BS.
I'm not a regular poster here anymore but if you feel someone has an agenda or is twisting facts, you can either call him/her out on it or ignore it. I know a big part of ISH is the banter but there's nothing to be gained IMO by going back and forth if you know something to be wrong and if someone isn't willing to change his/her viewpoint when disproved or corrected (EDIT: or willing to back off and agree to disagree).


I'm saying he literally makes the same post over and over. That post with the quotes...he probably has made that same post in some form half a dozen times in this thread alone and deleted it and posted it again.



That maturity. :kobe:
Oh ok I got you.

[andgar923]

That maturity. :kobe:

What? you don't like my d*ck (http://myveganjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/duck1.jpg)? :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

I'm not a regular poster here anymore but if you feel someone has an agenda or is twisting facts, you can either call him/her out on it or ignore it. I know a big part of ISH is the banter but there's nothing to be gained IMO by going back and forth if you know something to be wrong and if someone isn't willing to change his/her viewpoint when disproved or corrected (EDIT: or willing to back off and agree to disagree).

Very good point. Im just a sucker for a debate. But a discussion with 3ball is like talking to a wall.

[Dragonyeuw]

I don't tear Pippen down - I merely present facts, such as the following:


HOF Pippen is less help than:


HOF's McHale/Parish/DJ

HOF's Kareem/Worthy

HOF's Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi

HOF's Wade/Bosh/Allen

Shaq's Kobe or Kobe's Shaq


As you can see, I can't even include Horace Grant in the above list - he doesn't belong.



I just present these facts, along with the consensus that the Bulls were all about MJ:


Shaq Diesel on Pippen:

"You were not the main focus of the six rings. Don't make me pull up the scouting report. You wasn't even a factor on the scouting report. It was all about Mike."



Chuck Daly specifically discussing the "Jordan Rules":


"We knew how dangerous he was. And we knew we had to devise something special.. And so we most definitely devised, what we called, THE JORDAN RULES"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s




Bill Laimbeer:


"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordannaires - and you can't win championships like that with only 1 player."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h07m33s




Phil Jackson:


"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not TIME yet."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s

This was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything down the stretch of games.




Chuck Daly:


"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s




Horace Grant:


"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s


Dumars and Isiah:


"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and i were on the phone for HOURS, talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

This was Dumars' and Isiah's reaction to the Bulls taking 2-1 series lead in 1989 ECF after MJ hit GW over Rodman.





Reporter Pat O'Brien in 1989, confirming that Chuck Daly's championship defense was about stopping 1 guy via the "Jordan Rules":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=3m27s




Bill Laimbeer:


"The Jordan Rules were just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=1m22s




Scottie Pippen:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell.."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

This was Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary ADMITTING he the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7 - this cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals and the ring - (Bulls would've beaten Blazers - Blazers only took Pistons 6, while Bulls took then 7.

The innocent 'I'm merely stating facts' doesnt become you. On the other thread about Shaq and Pippen you were in full agreement with Shaqs comment that Pippen was a bum. In plenty of threads you've torn down Pippen to elevate MJ. You can take a break from cut and pasting the quotes, I caught them the first 1000 fcuking times.

Though on those quotes, what you overlook is that the majority of comments came before Pippen had elevated to a legit star. How about Daly calling Pip the second best player on the Dream team, featuring several HOFs in their prime. What about MJ himself saying Pip was the MVP halfway through the 96 campaign? I can go on google and in 5 mins find a bunch of pro-Pippen quotes.

And, your logic that the Bulls beat Blazers just because they took the Pistons to 7 while Portland took them to 6 is retarded. Basketball isnt strictly a game of A>B and B> C, so automatically A> C. Basketball is a far more nuanced game than that, which you should know since you act like the foremost authority around here. Which, let me clarify, Im not making a case for whoever wins that series. But using the amount of games Chicago and Portland took Detroit to as an arguing point is ridiculous.

[superteamtheory]

That's the baffling thing for me... I can't wrap my head around how he had the goat career (other than russell) with JUST Pippen.

He had Rodman for 3. That counts for at least 1...

George Karl: "Give him credit. He was their m.v.p. tonight. Jordan will get his points, but Rodman's rebounds, that was the difference." Tying Elvin Hayes's finals record for most offensive rebounds in a game -- 11 -- Rodman finished with 20 rebounds total.

"His offensive rebounds at the end killed us," Detlef Schrempf said. "He kept them in the game."

"He's probably the best in history at getting through two guys and getting the rebound," Hersey Hawkins said.

...

Grant was an all-star caliber player at his best. He showed what his value was when he team hopped in 95, resulting in the Bulls' loss to the Magic that year. Or at least, common sense watching the series, you'd have to say that was the difference. ... Also, by your typical logic, it was "Jordanball" that was holding back his stats in other years -- when Jordan left, he flourished... Of course, we all that know that's bullshit, just like we know it's bullshit with Bron and Bosh..

...

Ginobili and Parker were rooks/sophomores for the 2003 ring -- so if rookie Grant & Pippen don't count in 88 (because heaven forbid that would mean MJ actually lost something), then Gino & Parker are just role players in 03 -- so
Duncan won that one himself with marginal depth because... it was a weaker year, just like MJ benefited from some weaker years -- most notably 92 and 96... but honestly even 98... They already know they can beat the Jazz and the Pacers do not have the same level of star power to be able to match the Bulls... as was the case with most teams in this era.


Duncan had Ginobili for ALL his rings, back when Ginobili was in his 20's...

Duncan did not have Gino even on the roster for the 1st ring and David Robinson was aging...


Then recently, dpoy and FMVP Kawhi joined the mix.. Duncan's cup runneth over alike a mother****er

Well, that's true. Also why they were a superstacked team comparable to some of the other best teams ever. That was who the Heat played twice in a row, surviving them the first time then the second time with Bron missing parts of a game, Wade's body shutting down for the last two and Bosh playing like the overglorified marginal-HOFamer he is ..