Wilt Chamberlain's Unstoppable Fadeaway

[Round Mound]

What do you get when you combine the Tim Duncan bank shot with the Dirk Nowitzki step back, and put it into the hands of a player that is bigger, faster, and stronger? You get the Wilt Chamberlain Fadeaway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA

:applause:

[inclinerator]

until the playoffs

[Millslapped]

until the playoffs
:roll:

[SugarHill]

until the playoffs:oldlol:

[ClipperRevival]

until the playoffs

:roll:

[Round Mound]

The Hate On Wilt Is At Its Peak In ISH. Why? :confusedshrug:

[Fowl]

Are you fu uucking kidding me?

Instead of looking at Wilt doing the fadeaway why don't you look at the people defending him?

They're bearly jumping to defend that sh it..

[Asukal]

The Hate On Wilt Is At Its Peak In ISH. Why? :confusedshrug:

Mainly because of his retarded stans. :oldlol:

[RightToCensor]

Nice video from CavsFTW.

Appreciate the work he and Kblaze does for basketball fans

[Asukal]

Are you fu uucking kidding me?

Instead of looking at Wilt doing the fadeaway why don't you look at the people defending him?

They're bearly jumping to defend that sh it..

And they call it unstoppable. :facepalm

Just watch that terrible defense, nobody even tried to block it. They were just putting up their arms. Wilt's fade away barely has any arc to it. Watch a michael jordan fade away video, most of the time the defense would try to block it. Jordan would incorporate footwork to create separation on his post moves, wilt will just flat out turn to one side and do the move and the defender will just put up his arms. Unstoppable indeed.... :whatever:

[aj1987]

until the playoffs
http://i.imgur.com/wC5IgeU.gif

[sd3035]

until the playoffs

http://sextoround.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/tumblr_mysigcdtI71ry1rm7o1_400.gif

[Psileas]

Are you fu uucking kidding me?

Instead of looking at Wilt doing the fadeaway why don't you look at the people defending him?

They're bearly jumping to defend that sh it..

No, you are kidding us. Instead of doing this crap with Wilt, why don't you do it with everyone else? How many jump to defend Dirk's fadeaways? How many jumped to defend Kareem's skyhook? And even among the ones who did, who managed anything substantial?

[JohnMax]

So he could shoot fadeaways but not freethrows

[AirFederer]

So defence would hack him to prevent the fade away jump shot, as it was well known Wilt couldn't hit a much easier uncontested set FT to save his life?

Makes good sense :lol

[plowking]

I'm going to hazard a guess and say he probably shot less than 30% on those. I'd hardly say it was unstoppable.

His drop step on the other hand, sure.

[Paul George 24]

The Hate On Wilt Is At Its Peak In ISH. Why? :confusedshrug:
2-7 :lol

[ClipperRevival]

The Hate On Wilt Is At Its Peak In ISH. Why? :confusedshrug:

Lazeruss and CavFTW forcing Wilt down our throats. If they would just be more objective instead of trying to give every excuse for his failures, it would be easier to like Wilt.

[4 Inches]

until the playoffs
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[kshutts1]

Lazeruss and CavFTW forcing Wilt down our throats. If they would just be more objective instead of trying to give every excuse for his failures, it would be easier to like Wilt.
Pretty sure it's only Lazeruss now.

Cavs will certainly defend Wilt, but I have not seen him force him down our throats in a long time.

[riseagainst]

until the playoffs


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kevin-garnett-reaction.gif

[KendrickPerkins]

He looks laughably horrendous. So clumsy and uncoordinated.

The game has come so far since that retard played.

:applause:

[Elosha]

I'm going to hazard a guess and say he probably shot less than 30% on those. I'd hardly say it was unstoppable.

His drop step on the other hand, sure.

That's the million dollar question, isn't it. We really have no idea how efficient he was at shooting the fadeaway shot. Just looking at his form and the fluidity of the shot in his video leads me to believe he as significantly better than 30% on such shots. But whether he shot it in the high thirties, low forties, high forties, or over fifty percent, we will probably never know since we only have highlight videos and very little unedited game footage. I do know there's several misses of the fadeaway floating around youtube, usually from unedited footage. Here's one.

https://youtu.be/TDK5VDdX-yo?t=304

As to the defense played against him on this video, it's a mixed bag. I disagree with those who have stated no one ever contests his shot, in the very first few shots of the video, you can see some very aggressive contests by Russell and others. However, there are many times throughout the video with fairly lackadaisical defense played, and with relatively little contest and often no double teams or relatively weak/late ones. However, we don't know the context of those games. Perhaps, defenders wanted to encourage Wilt to take such shots, if they were significantly less effective than dunks, putbacks, finger rolls, or baseline spins. Also, we don't know how accurate this sampling is, perhaps Wilt was aggressively double teamed on such shots far more than this limited footage suggests.

In short, I think all the evidence posted shows is that Wilt had a fadeaway upon which he fairly often relied, and in which he demonstrates good form and confidence. Whether it was truly unstoppable, or even efficient is another question entirely. Cavs, if you actually have unedited game footage from which you got all these various highlights, posting that would give us a much better idea of how good his fadeaway really was.

[CavaliersFTW]

For what it's worth players in the league and coaches called his fade away a high percentage shot. I could post articles of players and coaches saying they had to respect that shot and that it's hit at a high rate (though no numbers are given), and even specifically citing that despite whatever free throw woes he clearly had it did not reflect on his fall away shooting touch. That fade away is one of the biggest reasons his scoring was impossible to defend because you could over play him left or right and he'd just happily settle for falling back and hitting that shot over top of you. It's an option a Dwight Howard doesn't have, and an option Shaq would prefer to pass out of rather than take (though Shaq was obviously more willing to fight through or outmaneuver the overplaying to get deeper). Nate Thurmond said in an interview that (I'm guessing he's exclusively referring to post-up situations) Wilt would opt for that fadeaway 60% of the time if not more instead of the alternative of outfaking, outspinning, or out muscling opponents that overplayed the middle or baseline attempting to deny the finger roll and/or a dunk.

People suggesting "terrible defense" ...well, let's just understand that's the 3rd option shot they all probably wanted Wilt to take over a finger roll or dunk because it at least removes him from easy rebounds. He probably took 60% or more fade aways in the post because that's probably the poison the defense picked.

[LAZERUSS]

Are you fu uucking kidding me?

Instead of looking at Wilt doing the fadeaway why don't you look at the people defending him?

They're bearly jumping to defend that sh it..

You obviously didn't watch the video, did you?

A near 6-10 world-class leaper extending himself to within Wilt's fingertips, and then later, a 7-2 Kareem all over a past-his-prime Chamberlain...and yet Wilt still nails those shots.

Chamberlain faced Russell, Thurmond, and then a peak Kareem at his defensive best. Am I supposed to believe that DeAndre Jordan, who was no taller than Russell, and with a 31" vertical, would give that Wilt more problems? And after Jordan, who? Cousins...all 6-9 3/4 and with his 28" vertical? An injury-prone stumble-bum like the 6-11 Bogut? A broken down 6-10 1/2 Noah?


So he could shoot fadeaways but not freethrows

Wilt MADE 6057 FTs in his NBA career, which ranks 19th among NBA-ABA players all-time. How about this? Wilt played 14 seasons in his NBA career, and MADE over 2000 more FTs than Larry Bird, who played 13 seasons? Hell, he made 600 more than Hakeem, who played 18 seasons. Kareem? Sure Kareem made more, but he played 20 seasons. However, Wilt averaged 432 MADE per season...Kareem...335.

Or how about this? Chamberlain MADE 835 FTs in his 61-62 season...which is SECOND ALL-TIME, behind West's 840 in 65-66, and just ahead of MJ's 833 in 86-87.

Or how about this? In Wilt's 100 point game... 28-32. And in a span of four games, including that 100 point game...games of 17-22, 15-20, 13-17, and that 28-32...or 73-91... or .802.

Wilt was a 61% FT shooter coming out of college, and in his highest scoring season in the NBA, he shot over 61%.

Outside shooting ability?

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html




Carl Braun said "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70

Finally, Wilt led the league in FG% NINE times in his 14 seasons (and it likely would have been 10 had he not blown out his knee in game nine of the 69-70 season...when he was averaging 32.2 ppg on a .579 FG%.)

And we have the FOOTAGE which CLEARLY shows Wilt with a deadly turn-around fall-away bank shot.

[LAZERUSS]

No, you are kidding us. Instead of doing this crap with Wilt, why don't you do it with everyone else? How many jump to defend Dirk's fadeaways? How many jumped to defend Kareem's skyhook? And even among the ones who did, who managed anything substantial?

We KNOW that a 33+ year old Wilt (actually 27 of the 28 H2H's at 34+), on a surgically repaired knee, and past-his-prime, was knocking a peak Kareem's sky hook all over the gym. And yet a 38-39 year old was reigning skyhooks on a helpless Hakeem.

Furthermore, the little known Nate Thurmond turned a peak Kareem into a putrid brick-layer, and yet an old Kareem could hang 40+ point games on not only Hakeem (hell, ROUTINE 40+), but Patrick Ewing, as well.

[Millslapped]

Ah. So now Lazzerus is arguing that Wilt was actually a good freethrow shooter. Okay.

[LAZERUSS]

Ah. So now Lazzerus is arguing that Wilt was actually a good freethrow shooter. Okay.

An early Wilt, from his two years in college to '62-63, was a 60% FT shooter. No one would claim that as good. But then again, Hakeem and Kareem were around 70%... and neither were MAKING the number of FTs that a 60-63 Wilt was (not even close.)

Of course, shooting turn-around bank shots from 10-12 feet, is not quite the same as shooting FTs, either.

[KG215]

Wilt MADE 6057 FTs in his NBA career, which ranks 19th among NBA-ABA players all-time. How about this? Wilt played 14 seasons in his NBA career, and MADE over 2000 more FTs than Larry Bird, who played 13 seasons? Hell, he made 600 more than Hakeem, who played 18 seasons. Kareem? Sure Kareem made more, but he played 20 seasons. However, Wilt averaged 432 MADE per season...Kareem...335.

Or how about this? Chamberlain MADE 835 FTs in his 61-62 season...which is SECOND ALL-TIME, behind West's 840 in 65-66, and just ahead of MJ's 833 in 86-87.

Or how about this? In Wilt's 100 point game... 28-32. And in a span of four games, including that 100 point game...games of 17-22, 15-20, 13-17, and that 28-32...or 73-91... or .802.

Wilt was a 61% FT shooter coming out of college, and in his highest scoring season in the NBA, he shot over 61%.
:oldlol:

Are you actually trying to argue that Wilt was a good FT shooter? You do a lot of reaching, cherry-picking, excuse making, goalpost moving, etc. when defending Wilt, but this may be your most "blinded-by-love" argument ever if you're actually attempting to argue Wilt was a good FT shooter.

He was a career 51% FT shooter. That's really bad. The last 10 seasons of his career he shot 47% from the FT line. That's terrible. He got even worse in the playoffs, and shot 46.5% from the FT line for his playoff career. He had playoff runs of 39% (15 G), 38% (13 G), 39% (18 G), and 41% (18 G) shooting from the FT line. And he averaged 167 FTA per playoff run, or 10.4 FTA/game. That's a big enough sample size to tell us he sucked as a FT shooter. I'll give it to him for his playoff run in 1962 (12 G) where he shot 64%, but that's not enough to overshadow his otherwise terrible FT shooting.

Making a ton of FTs =/= being a good FT shooter.

[LAZERUSS]

:oldlol:

Are you actually trying to argue that Wilt was a good FT shooter? You do a lot of reaching, cherry-picking, excuse making, goalpost moving, etc. when defending Wilt, but this may be your most "blinded-by-love" argument ever if you're actually attempting to argue Wilt was a good FT shooter.

He was a career 51% FT shooter. That's really bad. The last 10 seasons of his career he shot 47% from the FT line. That's terrible. He got even worse in the playoffs, and shot 46.5% from the FT line for his playoff career. He had playoff runs of 39% (15 G), 38% (13 G), 39% (18 G), and 41% (18 G) shooting from the FT line. And he averaged 167 FTA per playoff run, or 10.4 FTA/game. That's a big enough sample size to tell us he sucked as a FT shooter. I'll give it to him for his playoff run in 1962 (12 G) where he shot 64%, but that's not enough to overshadow his otherwise terrible FT shooting.

Making a ton of FTs =/= being a good FT shooter.

Do you see anything in my post which claimed that Wilt was a "good" FT shooter?

I merely pointed out that a college to early 60's Wilt was about a 60% FT shooter. Certainly not good, BUT, most "good" FT shooting centers have been around 70%.

And again...Wilt was MAKING FTs. FAR more than Larry Bird for example.

Of course, taking 10-12+ turn-around bank shots, is not the same as taking a FT, either.

Chamberlain's Fadeaway was one of the deadliest shots in NBA history, and we have footage which proves it...as well as first hand accounts of his "outside" shooting.

[Cocaine80s]

until the playoffs
https://theofficialmmanation.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/overeem-knockout.gif

[LAZERUSS]

https://theofficialmmanation.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/overeem-knockout.gif

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yep...a prime Chamberlain who averaged 30-27-5-8 .515 (in post-season league's that shot about .425 in that same span) in his first 67 playoff games.

This choking Chamberlain who had post-season runs of 28-30, 29-27, 33-26, 35-25, and 37-23. The same Wilt who had post-season series of 37-23, 37-23, 39-23, and 39-23. The same Wilt who had post-season series against Russell of 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 33-27. The same Chamberlain who, had FOUR 50+ point games, including the ONLY THREE by a GOAT candidate in "must-win" games, and a "must-win" Finals game of 45-27.

[Cocaine80s]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Yep...a prime Chamberlain who averaged 30-27-5-8 .515 (in post-season league's that shot about .425 in that same span) in his first 67 playoff games.

This choking Chamberlain who had post-season runs of 28-30, 29-27, 33-26, 35-25, and 37-23. The same Wilt who had post-season series of 37-23, 37-23, 39-23, and 39-23. The same Wilt who had post-season series against Russell of 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 33-27. The same Chamberlain who, had FOUR 50+ point games, including the ONLY THREE by a GOAT candidate in "must-win" games, and a "must-win" Finals game of 45-27.
Lavine>>>

[josh99]

Nice video thanks, he was pretty damn fluid for a center.

[4 Inches]

I heard Wilt always used to fadeaway in the 4th quarter.





















But I ain't talking bout shooting

[Dr.J4ever]

What do you get when you combine the Tim Duncan bank shot with the Dirk Nowitzki step back, and put it into the hands of a player that is bigger, faster, and stronger? You get the Wilt Chamberlain Fadeaway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA

:applause:

The video is personally very impressive to me.

Even if you grant that today's players are bigger(height and weight) and more athletic from positions 1-5, the video clearly shows how Wilt's game would definitely translate in today's era. Wilt wasn't just a finger roller and dunker, which might net you 10-15ppg in today's NBA, but this demonstrates an ability to shoot from close range with a shot launched at the peak of his jump fading away. All this from a legit 7'1. This would be just as unstoppable in today's NBA. Add another 10-15ppg for that.

The extreme example is high school basketball. Even at that level, you are able to determine gifted athletes. YT videos are all over the net touting this or that players skills while playing high school ball. Trained eyes will show how players talents can translate.

There's really no other way to spin it except that Wilt would be a major scorer in today's NBA. He would be contending for league MVP, if he played today.

[aj1987]

I recently saw a Dwyane Wade video. Wade has an unstoppable 3pt shot.

[sd3035]

until the playoffs

http://rubbermallet.org/gonzaga-crocop.gif

[AirFederer]

http://media.giphy.com/media/1ovkqrgWOoqoE/giphy.gif

[RidonKs]

great vid

wilt would be a bigger stronger hakeem if he grew up in the modern era

probably with more range based on this video, that awkward one hand release would have been changed pretty quick

[coin24]

until the playoffs


Oh shit:lol :lol :lol

[ClipperRevival]

great vid

wilt would be a bigger stronger hakeem if he grew up in the modern era

probably with more range based on this video, that awkward one hand release would have been changed pretty quick

:biggums: No big at 6'11" and over had Hakeem's fluidity of movement. NO ONE.

And Hakeem had the most complete offensive arsenal ever for a big. Don't know where you get the notion that Wilt would have better range as Hakeem had a very reliable face up jumper along with turn around jumper from 15-17 feet. Wilt played most of his game within 10 feet.

It's a disserve to Hakeem's all around game to compare Wilt's game to it if you ask me.

[RidonKs]

:biggums: No big at 6'11" and over had Hakeem's fluidity of movement. NO ONE.

And Hakeem had the most complete offensive arsenal ever for a big. Don't know where you get the notion that Wilt would have better range as Hakeem had a very reliable face up jumper along with turn around jumper from 15-17 feet. Wilt played most of his game within 10 feet.

It's a disserve to Hakeem's all around game to compare Wilt's game to it if you ask me.
well it sounds like you're taking it a little seriously then :lol

i ain't trying to do disservice to hakeem by comparing his arsenal to wilt fking chamberlain who had great touch from an array of contorted body positions out to 15 feet.

[ClipperRevival]

well it sounds like you're taking it a little seriously then :lol

i ain't trying to do disservice to hakeem by comparing his arsenal to wilt fking chamberlain who had great touch from an array of contorted body positions out to 15 feet.

Hakeem is one of my all time fav players, be careful how you speak of his game. :cheers:

[LAZERUSS]

:biggums: No big at 6'11" and over had Hakeem's fluidity of movement. NO ONE.

And Hakeem had the most complete offensive arsenal ever for a big. Don't know where you get the notion that Wilt would have better range as Hakeem had a very reliable face up jumper along with turn around jumper from 15-17 feet. Wilt played most of his game within 10 feet.

It's a disserve to Hakeem's all around game to compare Wilt's game to it if you ask me.

Hakeem was barely 6-10. BTW, Bob McAdoo was close to 6-10, and he had a FAR greater offensive arsenal than Hakeem.

On the flip side, Shaq couldn't shoot from 5+ feet, and yet he OWNED Hakeen in their career matchups.

It's doing a great dis-service to the truly dominant centers, like Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq, to be compared to a Hakeem that was NOWHERE NEAR as dominant as those three.

:facepalm

[ClipperRevival]

Hakeem was barely 6-10. BTW, Bob McAdoo was close to 6-10, and he had a FAR greater offensive arsenal than Hakeem.

On the flip side, Shaq couldn't shoot from 5+ feet, and yet he OWNED Hakeen in their career matchups.

It's doing a great dis-service to the truly dominant centers, like Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq, to be compared to a Hakeem that was NOWHERE NEAR as dominant as those three.

:facepalm

Hakeem was a true C. McAdoo wasn't. No C had Hakeem's complete offensive arsenal. No one.

And yeah, I would say Hakeem is different from a guy like Wilt because he actually performed better in the playoffs, like averaging 25.9 ppg. And even higher in the finals at 27.5 ppg. I know this is something you can't relate to as a Wilt fan because you're used to your man disappearing when it counts.

[ClipperRevival]

Wilt led the playoffs in scoring just once while Hakeem did it 3 times. Hakeem has the higher playoff PER at 25.7 to Wilt's 22.7.

Wilt is one of the most overrated players EVER. His whole legacy is based on what he did in his first 5-6 years in the league when he had the green light to shoot it over 32 times every game. The most shot attempts Hakeem ever took in a season was 21 per game. A lot of great C would've put up big numbers had they been allowed to shoot 32 times every game for 5-6 straight years.

Wilt = choker. Hakeem = winner.

[LAZERUSS]

Hakeem was a true C. McAdoo wasn't. No C had Hakeem's complete offensive arsenal. No one.

And yeah, I would say Hakeem is different from a guy like Wilt because he actually performed better in the playoffs, like averaging 25.9 ppg. And even higher in the finals at 27.5 ppg. I know this is something you can't relate to as a Wilt fan because you're used to your man disappearing when it counts.

McAdoo was a STARTING CENTER in his PRIME, and yes, he was a FAR greater scorer than Hakeem.

As for Wilt...how many 33+ ppg post-seasons did Hakeem have again? And did he have FOUR 37+ ppg post-season series, including two of 39? Did he have four 50+ point playoff games, with THREE in "must win" games?

How about 45 point Finals games? And how about a 29-28 .517 Finals (against RUSSELL no less)? maybe you can find a Finals in which Hakeem hung a 23-24 .625 stat-line?

How many times was Wilt outrebounded by an opposing center in his 29 post-season series? Yep...ZERO. How about Hakeem? Guys like Shaq pounded him in two, Ewing in one, and even his own teammates, Thorpe and Barkley were outrebounding him.

Chamberlain held a PEAK Kareem to .481 and .457 FG%'s. My god, a 37-41 year old Kareem SHELLED Hakeem, and, overall, in their 23 career H2H's...Kareem outshot a 22-25 year by a .607 to .512 margin. Oh, and Shaq hung a .590 Finals on a helpess Hakeem.

Hakeem averaged 33 ppg in a finals in which he took 29 FGAs per game, and in a post-season NBA that shot an eFG% of .504. Hell, Hakeem didn't even shoot the post-season league average (.488 eFG%.) Chamberlain averaged 29 ppg on 24 FGAs, with a .517 eFG%, in a post-season NBA that shot .420.

Wilt was SIMPLY...FAR MORE DOMINANT, including the POST-SEASON.

Oh, and Hakeem went down in flames in the First Round EIGHT TIMES in his 15 post-seasons. Just PATHETIC.

[midatlantic09]

Wilt is ridiculously overrated and would not be a star player in today's NBA. Sure, he was great back when players were shorter, slower, and less athletic, but he wouldn't be all that great in 2015 with the same skill set he had in the 60s.

Guys like Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, Ewing, Demarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, etc would DESTROY Wilt.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt led the playoffs in scoring just once while Hakeem did it 3 times. Hakeem has the higher playoff PER at 25.7 to Wilt's 22.7.

Wilt is one of the most overrated players EVER. His whole legacy is based on what he did in his first 5-6 years in the league when he had the green light to shoot it over 32 times every game. The most shot attempts Hakeem ever took in a season was 21 per game. A lot of great C would've put up big numbers had they been allowed to shoot 32 times every game for 5-6 straight years.

Wilt = choker. Hakeem = winner.

:roll: :roll: :roll:




And, had he had the good "fortune" to have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, EIGHT times, as was the case with Hakeem, his first round numbers were often HIGHER. And, I have read an idiot post claiming that Hakeem outshot Wilt from the field in the post-season (by a .528 to .522 margin), BUT, I will be comparing their post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, (and even including eFG%'s), which CLEARLY gives Chamberlain a HUGE edge.

As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455.) Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-seasob career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11.

Hakeem?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

FIRST ROUND FLOP JOBS IN OVER HALF OF HIS PLAYOFF CAREER.

BTW, Hakeem has ONE MVP, ONE 2nd, and TWO 4th's in the MVP voting in his entire career. Hell, he wasn't even voted Top-10 in EIGHT of his 18 seasons.

THAT was the REALITY of Hakeem's CAREER. Seldom even considered a Top-5 player in his OWN era, much less in any all-time lists.

Borderline Top-10, and realistically... Top-13.

[RidonKs]

Wilt is ridiculously overrated and would not be a star player in today's NBA. Sure, he was great back when players were shorter, slower, and less athletic, but he wouldn't be all that great in 2015 with the same skill set he had in the 60s.
but if he played right now.... HE WOULDNT HAVE THE SAME SKILLSET

but he would be just as smart, confident, coordinated, strong, and agile as he was bad then... only more so because he would have access to more resources. hell he might even have a left hand if he played right now.

same dude... different era... better player. like how a shitty youtube user might SOUND better than the crazy african lady who invented rhythms that sound just right to make your hair stand on end in anticipation but she screams incoherent out of tune gibberish while dancing around a camp fire because she hasn't been exposed to western music systems cuz she lived in chad in 1204 AD.... but if you put that same lady as a baby in a cradle on the step of a middle class family in 1992, chances are she could be a fking musical prodigy by 2015.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt is ridiculously overrated and would not be a star player in today's NBA. Sure, he was great back when players were shorter, slower, and less athletic, but he wouldn't be all that great in 2015 with the same skill set he had in the 60s.

Guys like Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, Ewing, Demarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, etc would DESTROY Wilt.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

[ClipperRevival]

All you have on your side is a lot of empty stats that Wilt accumulated in his first 6 years in the league when he took 32.5 shots per game and averaged 40.6 ppg. After that, when he actually went to teams that had enough talent to compete and had to cater his game to win with others, he failed many more times than he succeeded.

Sorry, but the individual stats of Wilt overrate who he really was, which was a choker. A guy who couldn't elevate his game when it mattered most. Meanwhile, Hakeem had a legendary playoff run in 1994 and 1995 which will never be forgotten and he competed in the greatest era ever for Cs.

[Psileas]

Wilt is ridiculously overrated and would not be a star player in today's NBA. Sure, he was great back when players were shorter, slower, and less athletic, but he wouldn't be all that great in 2015 with the same skill set he had in the 60s.

Guys like Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, Ewing, Demarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis, etc would DESTROY Wilt.

:facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

All you have on your side is a lot of empty stats that Wilt accumulated in his first 6 years in the league when he took 32.5 shots per game and averaged 40.6 ppg. After that, when he actually went to teams that had enough talent to compete and had to cater his game to win with others, he failed many more times than he succeeded.

Sorry, but the individual stats of Wilt overrate who he really was, which was a choker. A guy who couldn't elevate his game when it mattered most. Meanwhile, Hakeem had a legendary playoff run in 1994 and 1995 which will never be forgotten and he competed in the greatest era ever for Cs.

No one "choked" like your boy "Mr. First Round Exit" Hakeem.

And Shaq just pounded Hakeem in the '95 Finals. Had Hakeem's TEAMMATES not overwhelmed Shaq's and Hakeem would have one less ring. Oh, and he also won a ring in a season in which the best player in the league took the year off.

Of course, a more peak Shaq just castrated a virtually helpless Hakeem in their '99 playoff H2H.

Hakeem had EIGHT FIRST ROUND exits, and the majority of those were blowout losses.

Seldom even a Top-5 player in his OWN era.

[Psileas]

but if he played right now.... HE WOULDNT HAVE THE SAME SKILLSET

but he would be just as smart, confident, coordinated, strong, and agile as he was bad then... only more so because he would have access to more resources. hell he might even have a left hand if he played right now.

same dude... different era... better player. like how a shitty youtube user might SOUND better than the crazy african lady who invented rhythms that sound just right to make your hair stand on end in anticipation but she screams incoherent out of tune gibberish while dancing around a camp fire because she hasn't been exposed to western music systems cuz she lived in chad in 1204 AD.... but if you put that same lady as a baby in a cradle on the step of a middle class family in 1992, chances are she could be a fking musical prodigy by 2015.

Unfortunately, this goes way beyond the logic of the average ISH Wilt basher.

[ClipperRevival]

No one "choked" like your boy "Mr. First Round Exit" Hakeem.

And Shaq just pounded Hakeem in the '95 Finals. Had Hakeem's TEAMMATES not overwhelmed Shaq's and Hakeem would have one less ring. Oh, and he also won a ring in a season in which the best player in the league took the year off.

Of course, a more peak Shaq just castrated a virtually helpless Hakeem in their '99 playoff H2H.

Hakeem had EIGHT FIRST ROUND exits, and the majority of those were blowout losses.

Seldom even a Top-5 player in his OWN era.

And what was Wilt's record against the Celtics in playoff series? Elimination games against Russell?

[aj1987]

Borderline Top-10, and realistically... Top-13.
Wilt? Sure.

[LAZERUSS]

And what was Wilt's record against the Celtics in playoff series? Elimination games against Russell?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

And what was Hakeem's records against playoff teams with centers like Eaton, Oliver Miller, Mychal Thompson, et. al.

Hakeem was the KING of the FIRST ROUND EXIT. He seldom got his teams to 50+ wins, and never to 60. And then routinely was blown out in the FIRST ROUND.

Chamberlain was either crushing the Celtic Dynasty (or Kareem's supposed next great dynasty), or losing to them in game seven's, by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points, and in series in which Chamberlain either outplayed, or downright obliterated Russell.

Next...

[Dro]

Mainly because of his retarded stans. :oldlol:
This is what I don't get. There's maybe 2 super Wilt stans on this site, 3 maybe yet everyone uses this as an excuse to slam players. Its not like there's 10-20 Wilt stans running around here and I wouldn't call Laz retarded definitely. At least he posts stuff to back up his opinion when the rest of these idiots spit witty one liners...The same overused one liners/opinions.

[Dro]

And I think Hakeem is GREAT player, borderline top 10 but he honestly might not have a ring if MJ doesn't retire. I mean sure you can't say the Bulls would definitely have won but come on, they won the previous 3 before MJ retired and the next 3 when he came back for his first FULL season.

So honestly it makes no sense to bash Wilt and not bash Hakeem. Plus Wilt faced WAY tougher competition. He faced all time great teams. Hakeem beat a young Magic team with a young Shaq and then I will give the Rockets credit for beating a tough Knicks team.

[Dro]

Hakeem was a true C. McAdoo wasn't. No C had Hakeem's complete offensive arsenal. No one.

And yeah, I would say Hakeem is different from a guy like Wilt because he actually performed better in the playoffs, like averaging 25.9 ppg. And even higher in the finals at 27.5 ppg. I know this is something you can't relate to as a Wilt fan because you're used to your man disappearing when it counts.
And Hakeem is like 6'10. You could argue he's a PF playing C, just like Tim Duncan but we all really consider Timmy a PF. :confusedshrug:

[-23-]

No one "choked" like your boy "Mr. First Round Exit" Hakeem.

And Shaq just pounded Hakeem in the '95 Finals. Had Hakeem's TEAMMATES not overwhelmed Shaq's and Hakeem would have one less ring. Oh, and he also won a ring in a season in which the best player in the league took the year off.

Of course, a more peak Shaq just castrated a virtually helpless Hakeem in their '99 playoff H2H.

Hakeem had EIGHT FIRST ROUND exits, and the majority of those were blowout losses.

Seldom even a Top-5 player in his OWN era.

Shaq pounded Hakeem? Are you fking senile old man? Shaq HIMSELF doesn't even agree with you. Fking fggot.

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq pounded Hakeem? Are you fking senile old man? Shaq HIMSELF doesn't even agree with you. Fking fggot.

I don't give a damn what Shaq SAID.

And obviously YOU didn't watch a minute of that series. But I will let someone who not only watched it, but researched nearly every possession give him his opinion...

Thanks to Colts18


I decided to rewatch the 1995 finals and chart each possession to see to how effective Shaq and Hakeem were on the court. A special shout out to Jordanbulls for providing the video of this series


Total:
Hakeem: 253 touches, 140 doubles (55.3%)
Shaq: 221 touches, 146 doubles (66.1%)

Here are their stats when they were guarded by each other:
Shaq 32-57 (56.1 FG%), 6-8 FT, 67.3 double teamed%, .578 TS%, 17 assists, 1 O-reb allowed to Hakeem
Hakeem: 31-75 (41.3 FG%), 9-13 FT, 60.2 double teamed%, .446 TS%, 8 assists, 3 O-reb allowed to Shaq

Shaq blocked 2 Hakeem shots, Hakeem blocked 0 Shaq shots. Hakeem did make a 3P on Shaq. Hakeem guarded Shaq on 73.3% of the touches he had, while Shaq guarded Hakeem on 69.6% of his touches. Hakeem got a lot more fastbreak touches than Shaq so in the halfcourt, they guarded each other about even.

When they weren't being guarded by each other, Shaq was being guarded by Charles Jones and Hakeem by Horace Grant.

Shaq vs Jones: 7-11 FG (63.6 FG%), 35 doubles in 52 touches (67.3%), 2 assists
Hakeem vs Grant: 13-24 (54.2 FG%), 33 double teams in 58 touches (56.9%), 6 assists

Jump shots:
Hakeem: 27-62 (43.5%)
Shaq: 2-7 (28.6%)

The vast majority of Shaq's shots were close range hooks.

Dunks:
Hakeem: 1 dunk (vs grant)
Shaq: 9 dunks (2 of them were in Hakeem's face)

Fouls drawn on offense:
Shaq: 37 (17 on Hakeem)
Hakeem: 21 (9 on Shaq)

Hakeem did draw 4 Shaq charges.

Shaq was called for 5 travels, Hakeem 2.

Plus/Minus (Houston outscored Orlando by 28 points total):
On court:
Shaq: -12 in 180 minutes
Hakeem: +17 in 179 minutes

Off court:
Shaq: -16 in 16:37 of action (Houston scored 133 points per 48 in the minutes Shaq missed)
Hakeem: +11 in 17:11 of action (134 points per 48 in the minutes he was off the court)

Interestingly enough, in 2 of the games, the Magic outscored the Rockets when Shaq was on the court. The magic were -8 in about 9 minutes of action without Shaq in game (lost by just 2 points). In game 3, they were -4 in the minutes Shaq missed in a game where they lost by 3 points. In game 1, the Rockets outscored the magic by 9 in the minutes Hakeem missed, but they were outscored by a combined 4 points in games 3 and 4 without Hakeem.

Observations:
-Orlando was for some reason really committed to doubling Hakeem in game 1. They were throwing a lot of hard doubles. Hakeem had 5 assists in that game, all of them 3 pointers, 4 came off of doubles (one was a triple team). I'm guessing it was a response to Hakeem's series vs Robinson. For the rest of the series, Orlando didn't double Hakeem as much and they threw softer doubles.

-Hakeem made like 5 or 6 baskets in transition to Shaq's 1 or so. So while Shaq didn't get credit for giving up those buckets since he didn't guard, a few of those times Shaq was slow in transition. Shaq got about 3 or shots

-One of the commentators compared Horry to Scottie Pippen and Walton took the comment seriously. They are vastly different players IMO

-I'm not sure why Penny wasn't more aggressive. Kenny Smith couldn't guard him at all. When Penny did drive to the basket, he made a few shots over Hakeem.

-Drexler was the man in this series. He really wanted to get his first title badly. For some reason, people rarely talk about him despite him getting more WS than Hakeem in that playoff run

-It's fashionable these days to **** on Hakeem's cast in 94, but this cast was much better than that one. The guards outplayed Orlando's guards. Horry played really well. The 3P shooters benefited a lot from the shortened 3P line.

-Contrary to popular belief, handchecking wasn't allowed in 95. The refs called like 2 handchecking fouls in this series

-I'm so thankful the NBA got rid of the illegal defense. The refs called like 5 of them in each game. It destroyed the flow of the game and limited the ways you could double team a player.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW,

here are the Shaq-Hakeem career H2H's...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01


Decidedly in favor of Shaq.

And while the Hakeem fans will try to claim that a PEAK Hakeem outplayed a young Shaq in the '95 Finals...(which was not the case)...

they will never bring up their '99 playoff series H2H. How come?

[-23-]

I don't give a damn what Shaq SAID.

And obviously YOU didn't watch a minute of that series. But I will let someone who not only watched it, but researched nearly every possession give him his opinion...

Thanks to Colts18


Obviously you're fking senile. Shaq PLAYED Hakeem. His words > yours by miles. Dumb fkng fggot.

[Lebron23]

And I think Hakeem is GREAT player, borderline top 10 but he honestly might not have a ring if MJ doesn't retire. I mean sure you can't say the Bulls would definitely have won but come on, they won the previous 3 before MJ retired and the next 3 when he came back for his first FULL season.

So honestly it makes no sense to bash Wilt and not bash Hakeem. Plus Wilt faced WAY tougher competition. He faced all time great teams. Hakeem beat a young Magic team with a young Shaq and then I will give the Rockets credit for beating a tough Knicks team.


Not true. I think the Rockets would beat the Pre Dennis Rodman Bulls in a best of 7 series. And as far as I remember the Rockets had a better record than the Bulls in their head to head match up.

[Dro]

Not true. I think the Rockets would beat the Pre Dennis Rodman Bulls in a best of 7 series. And as far as I remember the Rockets had a better record than the Bulls in their head to head match up.
Thats true, they did have a better record but if I recall, the Bulls at least one of those other years did not have the best record either. They're kinda like the Spurs, they pace themselves during the season but then turn it up on the playoffs. But MJ always turned it up in the playoffs. They weren't favored against the Suns either in '93 but MJ pretty much was the difference.

But during that stretch from '91 to '98, I would choose the Bulls in the Finals regardless of the opponent.

[ClipperRevival]

And I think Hakeem is GREAT player, borderline top 10 but he honestly might not have a ring if MJ doesn't retire. I mean sure you can't say the Bulls would definitely have won but come on, they won the previous 3 before MJ retired and the next 3 when he came back for his first FULL season.

So honestly it makes no sense to bash Wilt and not bash Hakeem. Plus Wilt faced WAY tougher competition. He faced all time great teams. Hakeem beat a young Magic team with a young Shaq and then I will give the Rockets credit for beating a tough Knicks team.

You're selling Hakeem short. He played in the greatest era ever for big men and he schooled them all in legendary fashion. I would say that Hakeem played in the tougher era. Sure, Wilt had to face the Celtics but it's not like he didn't have help with the 76ers or Lakers.

Anyways, it's obvious Wilt was a special talent and would've been a dominant force in any era. But this Laz dude makes it hard for me to be objective regarding Wilt because he's so biased.

[Fallen Angel]

wilt would be a bigger stronger hakeem

http://i.imgur.com/I8Ux374.gif

Never talk about Hakeem again...

[ClipperRevival]

And Hakeem is like 6'10. You could argue he's a PF playing C, just like Tim Duncan but we all really consider Timmy a PF. :confusedshrug:

Hakeem was closer to 6'11". But anyways, the point is, he protected the paint at an all time great level. McAdoo didn't do that.

[LAZERUSS]

Hakeem was closer to 6'11". But anyways, the point is, he protected the paint at an all time great level. McAdoo didn't do that.

Hakeem was a borderline 6-10, and McAdoo was nearly 6-10 (he was listed at 6-10 in college at the time he played at NC.)

At best, Hakeem was just a shade taller. Hell, Russell was as tall as Hakeem in the photos I have seen, and we KNOW that he was a shade under 6-10.

[Dro]

Hakeem was closer to 6'11". But anyways, the point is, he protected the paint at an all time great level. McAdoo didn't do that.
I agree, McAdoo was a below average defender in all facets.

But I still don't think the Rockets beat the Bulls. I know Kenny Smith feels differently though. The Bulls can't matchup with Hakeem at all but MJ would have absolutely used Maxwell in a Finals matchup. Vernon talks too much smack and MJ would have no shortage of motivation to try to drop 50 on him every game.

[warriorfan]

Wilt shot 30% from the line during what people consider his "best finals" and then these guys try to tell us he has a fadeway like Dirk? (Someone who shoots 90% from the line)



:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Hakeem was a borderline 6-10, and McAdoo was nearly 6-10 (he was listed at 6-10 in college at the time he played at NC.)

At best, Hakeem was just a shade taller. Hell, Russell was as tall as Hakeem in the photos I have seen, and we KNOW that he was a shade under 6-10.

McAdoo was "forced" to play like a center, in his best years, though (still beasted)... He was always more of a PF.

Bob's scoring game was similar to having Dirk with more athleticism but some worse shooting and some worse range, although still being a pretty good shooter with range. And in terms of hitting contested jumpers, Big Mac is one of the greatest ever, just crazy to see.
McAdoo was also a great rebounder. Solid passer.
He definitely had a good post-game but not rivaling the best centers, certainly not competing with Hakeem's...

Plus, he didn't have the weight or strength of a Hakeem Olajuwon, which led to him having lots of problems inside with them bigger centers like Lanier, Gilmore, shit even Kareem...




I agree, McAdoo was a below average defender in all facets.

Don't agree at all...

McAdoo, when playing the 5, was once 3rd in the league in BPG and twice 6th. He created TO's too, while being a good m2m defender, on the block and on the wing.

Even in his Lakers day, he was pretty important not just for his scoring off the bench but also for his defense on the wing, which many were praising.

He was not that defensive anchor type though, not even a "real center" so also had trouble with the big dogs, like I've said.
Also not a paint-protector as someone like Hakeem.
But, imo, Mac was certainly not a below average defender, especially when talking about all facets.

[Asukal]

This is what I don't get. There's maybe 2 super Wilt stans on this site, 3 maybe yet everyone uses this as an excuse to slam players. Its not like there's 10-20 Wilt stans running around here and I wouldn't call Laz retarded definitely. At least he posts stuff to back up his opinion when the rest of these idiots spit witty one liners...The same overused one liners/opinions.

He posts a wall of text of cherry picked stats and you call that credibility? Anyone can do that. He deserves the trolling he gets for being a biased POS. Thanks to him many posters got educated about wilt and his choking ass. :oldlol:

[senelcoolidge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7thLbVldwfM

[warriorfan]

https://youtu.be/2Q3ULtuljME?t=7m4s

Yeah this is the guy who supposedly has an unstoppable fadeaway.

Seems legit.

[La Frescobaldi]

You're selling Hakeem short. He played in the greatest era ever for big men and he schooled them all in legendary fashion. I would say that Hakeem played in the tougher era. Sure, Wilt had to face the Celtics but it's not like he didn't have help with the 76ers or Lakers.

Anyways, it's obvious Wilt was a special talent and would've been a dominant force in any era. But this Laz dude makes it hard for me to be objective regarding Wilt because he's so biased.

Incorrect. Olajuwon did not play in the greatest era for big men.

So far the greatest era for the big man was '68 to '75 (which I watched live). No other NBA time frame since then has ever been even remotely close for so many teams with hall of fame level talent in the paint.

During all other times since then there have been large numbers of teams with weak or non-existent centers. In other words, lots of nights off. Hakeem himself said that regularly.

[ClipperRevival]

Incorrect. Olajuwon did not play in the greatest era for big men.

So far the greatest era for the big man was '68 to '75 (which I watched live). No other NBA time frame since then has ever been even remotely close for so many teams with hall of fame level talent in the paint.

During all other times since then there have been large numbers of teams with weak or non-existent centers. In other words, lots of nights off. Hakeem himself said that regularly.

I take Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Mutombo and Mourning over any era. Then you had guys below that tier in Daugherty, Divac, Seikaly, etc. I know I'm missing a few. And the great thing is outside of Shaq, the other 3 bigs were near their peaks at the same time. That can't be saif for 68-75.

[Marchesk]

I take Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Mutombo and Mourning over any era. Then you had guys below that tier in Daugherty, Divac, Seikaly, etc. I know I'm missing a few. And the great thing is outside of Shaq, the other 3 bigs were near their peaks at the same time. That can't be saif for 68-75.

Kareem, Wilt, Reed, Thurmond, Unseld, Cowens, Russell, Hayes, McAdoo, Walton. That's pretty good. Those are all HOFers and most of them have at least one MVP. McAdoo led the league in scoring 3 straight seasons.

[ClipperRevival]

Kareem, Wilt, Reed, Thurmond, Unseld, Cowens, Russell, Hayes, McAdoo, Walton. That's pretty good. Those are all HOFers and most of them have at least one MVP. McAdoo led the league in scoring 3 straight seasons.

Very impressive. And if they had all peaked at around the same time, it would blow my list away. But Russell retired in 1969 and Wilt was past his best and Walton just started in 1975. So the only legit top 10 big was KAJ. Meanwhile, 3 of the top 10 ever were peaking at around the same time in the 90's.

[La Frescobaldi]

Kareem, Wilt, Reed, Thurmond, Unseld, Cowens, Russell, Hayes, McAdoo, Walton. That's pretty good. Those are all HOFers and most of them have at least one MVP. McAdoo led the league in scoring 3 straight seasons.
Without even thinking too hard you left out HoF guys Walt Bellamy and Bob Lanier, along with high quality second level guys who were easily Daugherty level or higher like Bob Rule, Jim Fox, Tom Boerwinkel.

It's not even close. One who had actually watched the NBA through all those years would almost be forced to say the WEAKEST of all the eras for centers was precisely when Olajuwon was winning rings (outside of the 2010s when our entire generation of 7 footers has been wrecked by injuries).
4 great opponents in a league of 30 teams is a lot of nights off for your center. Over 80% of the games against puffballs.

vs. about only 15 or 20% of the time your center had an easy opponent during the most dominating era, which was quite obviously late '60s through early '70s.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

I respect Wilt as an all-time great but highlight videos don't really prove anything. You could make an hour long highlight reel for Antoine Walker sinking 3's

Common sense overrides shoddy anecdotal evidence. Wilt was one of the worst free throw shooters of all time. You can bet that any time he took a shot outside 7-8 feet, it was a low percentage one. Doesn't mean he didn't make a bunch. Just that it wasn't a good shot to take. Wilt barely made 50% of his free throws. Of course, these are uncontested shots where he has all the time in the world. Put a man on him and take his time away, and that percentage takes a huge nosedive, even if its from 10-12 feet instead. As 3ball would say, "its intuitive that this would be a suboptimal shot within the framework of the offense they run. OTOH, MJ's fadeaway....."