For those who have Kobe in their Top 10 all-time, who do you leave out? Hakeem? Shaq?

[Westbrook0]

Duncan?

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron most likely

[Kvnzhangyay]

Probably Lebron. Most people are either only Lebron or only Kobe. Can't appreciate the greatness of both :confusedshrug:

[miles berg]

Would have to be LeBron.

But they're wrong. Kobe is 11th.

[Cold soul]

Hakeem

[Prime_Shaq]

How the fk do you leave Shaq out of the Top 10?

[SouBeachTalents]

How the fk do you leave Shaq out of the Top 10?

Bill Simmons did

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/simmons_pyramid.html

[rmt]

9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11. Lebron until he wins another ring - just a matter of time.

If the question was, who I want to start a franchise with:

Hakeem
Lebron
Kobe

[bballnoob1192]

easily hakeem. dude gets so overrated on this board.

[shrempf_on_rice]

easily hakeem. dude gets so overrated on this board.

He is overrated. Good guy great player but if he was playing today jumping from team to team to join other stars he would be kicked out of the top 15 in a millisecond.

[RightToCensor]

easily hakeem. dude gets so overrated on this board.
:facepalm

[nzahir]

Bill russell, im serious.
I have him #11-12 mostly based on respect, but when there is only 6-8 teams and u have the best team every year winning isnt as impressive. Not highly skilled on offense.
Mj, Kaj, Bird/Magic, Shaq, Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Wilt.
And if people say you have to keep russell I would take out hakeem, he did nothing until MJ left and lost in the 1st round multiple times and even missed playoffs in prime

[Mr. Jabbar]

let me help you op. no1 leaves kobe or shaq out of their top 10, hakeem is arguable, so may be pulled out. lebron barely cracks top 20 (lol @ top 10). if you have any more questions pls pm me so u dont pollute the main nba page

[RightToCensor]

Hakeem Olajuwon:

10th All-Time in Points
13th All-Time in Rebounds
9th All-Time in Assists (for centers)
1st All-Time in Blocks
9th All-Time in Steals


6x All-NBA 1st Team
3x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team

12x All-Star
2x Defensive Player of the Year
2x Finals MVP
1x NBA Most Valuable Player

[SouBeachTalents]

Hakeem Olajuwon:

10th All-Time in Points
13th All-Time in Rebounds
1st All-Time in Blocks
9th All-Time in Steals


6x All-NBA 1st Team
3x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team

12x All-Star
2x Defensive Player of the Year
2x Finals MVP
1x NBA Most Valuable Player

Also the only player to win MVP, Finals MVP, and DPOY in the same year, all while carrying arguably the worst championship roster of all time

[Kvnzhangyay]

Hakeem Olajuwon:

10th All-Time in Points
13th All-Time in Rebounds
9th All-Time in Assists (for centers)
1st All-Time in Blocks
9th All-Time in Steals


6x All-NBA 1st Team
3x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team

12x All-Star
2x Defensive Player of the Year
2x Finals MVP
1x NBA Most Valuable Player

Not to mention IMO only behind Jordan, Shaq, and LBJ peakwise

For me a really big problem is he never led the league in WS (Win shares when used in context is actually a very good stat imo for star players. Look at WS leaders, pretty representative of best player that season http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly.html)

Anything from 7-11 is reasonable for Hakeem imo

[Kobe_6/8]

Hakeem Olajuwon:

10th All-Time in Points
13th All-Time in Rebounds
9th All-Time in Assists (for centers)
1st All-Time in Blocks
9th All-Time in Steals


6x All-NBA 1st Team
3x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team

12x All-Star
2x Defensive Player of the Year
2x Finals MVP
1x NBA Most Valuable Player

http://i2.nxez.com/2008/32020swyu840.gif

[rmt]

Also the only player to win MVP, Finals MVP, and DPOY in the same year, all while carrying arguably the worst championship roster of all time

That's why I still have Hakeem ahead of Lebron - (relatively) crappy team mates vs franchise team mates. Not to worry, Bron fans, another championship will come soon - more team hopping.

[sportjames23]

Also the only player to win MVP, Finals MVP, and DPOY in the same year, all while carrying arguably the worst championship roster of all time

Roster so bad, they repeated. :facepalm

Dream gets shit on around here by young stans, but others tend to tear down his teammates to prop him up, like you all say 3ball does with Pippen to prop up MJ.

Smith, Cassell, Horry, Thorpe and Maxwell (or later, Drexler) were anything but scrubs.

[Angel Face]

No one... Shaq,Duncan, Hakeem and Kobe are all top 10 players.

[West-Side]

Michael Jordan
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Shaquille O'Neal
LeBron James
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bill Russell

Yeah, it's definitely Hakeem.
No way LeBron gets dropped over him, no way.

Kobe accomplished more in this league than Hakeem; despite Hakeem's incredible peak play. Kobe just did more in this league. Won more, achieved more, broke more records; will be remember as one of the most complete basketball players that ever lived.

5-6 years from now; many of the people that are hating on the man will miss him dearly. He is a generational player; we don't see that type of specimen that often.

[Dr Hawk]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq
6. Magic
7. LeBron
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10. Kobe


Russell = not ranked yet

[L.A. Jazz]

watching the docu "clutch City" about the Rockets changed a Little bit how i see Dream.

- he wasnt a leader or good teammate until 1992, thats when he start caring and leading (before he just played), passing more. maybe because of Islam and missing the Playoffs.

- the series against Robinson is often mentioned as how good he was, but his teammates said he did moves they never saw before. WHY? so he Wasnt playing like that all the time. not before, not after.

- he was good for a Long time, but was he great for lots of years? Shaq was great from 1996 to 2004 and dominated 1999-2002 even more than Dream.

- Awards like MVP and DOY are nice, but i dont care much about them. his trophies are legit but Shaq has more.

So Shaq over Dream for me.

[West-Side]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bryant
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. James
10. Bird

In terms of their skills, accomplishments, peak play, longevity and two-way game.

[superteamtheory]

Bill russell, im serious.
I have him #11-12 mostly based on respect, but when there is only 6-8 teams and u have the best team every year winning isnt as impressive. Not highly skilled on offense.
Mj, Kaj, Bird/Magic, Shaq, Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Wilt.

^ this is the correct answer

:applause: :rockon: :cheers:

edit: I wasn't sure if anybody else out there had my top 10 mix, really good to know some people have it right... (not sure if that's your exact order tho? but that's okay, I'm always second guessing some of the ordering anyway but those are the right 10.)

[Vertical-24]

1. Michael Jeffrey Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Earvin Magic Johnson
4. Bill Russell
5. Larry Bird
6. Kobe Bean Bryant (interchangeable with Duncan)
7. Timothy Theodore Duncan (interchangeable with Bryant)
8. Shaquille Kazzam O'Neal (in the mix with Bryant and Duncan)
9. Hakeem the Dream Olajuwon
10. LeBron James / Wilt Chamberlain/ Oscar Rob.

[K Xerxes]

What's the value of a 'top 10' list? Why not a 'top 11' list? Most people seem to be in agreement that there are 11 players above all others, yet we need to spend so much time debating who misses the top 10 cut? Let's say you have:

#9 - Kobe
#10 - LeBron
#11 - Hakeem

Most people debate who is #10 and #11, yet is it that much different from debating #9 and #10? Maybe it's just me, but it seems silly.

[Psileas]

Κοbe isn't a definite top 10 in my book, but "10" is just a round number and means little more than "11" or "12". Any player that I may rank at 10 is essentially at the same tier with the 11th or 12th. So, it's about as easy/hard for me to leave Kobe or Hakeem outside of my top 10.

[Psileas]

What's the value of a 'top 10' list? Why not a 'top 11' list? Most people seem to be in agreement that there are 11 players above all others, yet we need to spend so much time debating who misses the top 10 cut? Let's say you have:

#9 - Kobe
#10 - LeBron
#11 - Hakeem

Most people debate who is #10 and #11, yet is it that much different from debating #9 and #10? Maybe it's just me, but it seems silly.

Haha :cheers:

[brownmamba00]

Dream>Snaq, TD, LbJ

[K Xerxes]

Haha :cheers:

:cheers:

Out of interest, who do you also put in that same tier? I'm guessing some of the old timers like Oscar, West, Baylor? Dr J, Moses even? Just wondering, because I'd usually cut off that tier at LeBron, Duncan and Kobe, and then go to the next tier with those lot. But I'm not old enough to have watched them play, so I don't really count my opinion lol.

[Psileas]

:cheers:

Out of interest, who do you also put in that same tier? I'm guessing some of the old timers like Oscar, West, Baylor? Dr J, Moses even? Just wondering, because I'd usually cut off that tier at LeBron, Duncan and Kobe, and then go to the next tier with those lot. But I'm not old enough to have watched them play, so I don't really count my opinion lol.

Yes, these are approximately the ones. I'm a little hesitant with Baylor (longevity/health issues) and Erving (dominated the NBA visibly less than the ABA, although the Sixers' depth wasn't favoring individual dominant stats), although their primes still stick fine.

As for the tier thing, it's as when we're comparing values like 94%, 93.5%, 93%, etc. (E.g, without looking at it, who's the greater FT shooter, Bird or Ray Allen?) Each number has a small separation from the other, so it's a bit hard to really distinguish tiers, therefore, you are pressed to create artificial ones, even if they don't really exist (which is basically the same with the #10, #11, #12, etc. problem).

[T_L_P]

Wilt/Kobe are interchangeable for me at #10.

[HOoopCityJones]

Wilt/Kobe are interchangeable for me at #10.

If Wilt is at number 10, Duncan must be Top 30.

[T_L_P]

If Wilt is at number 10, Duncan must be Top 30.

Duncan is in the top 30.

[HOoopCityJones]

Duncan is in the top 30.

If Wilt is number 10, Duncan is number 30 on the All time list.

[branslowski]

Hakeem Olajuwon:




6x All-NBA 1st Team
3x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team

12x All-Star
2x Defensive Player of the Year
2x Finals MVP
1x NBA Most Valuable Player

Yea, do Kobe now.:oldlol:

[kshutts1]

As a few posters have recently said, what's the point of even having a top 10? The 11th player is not magically half the player that #10 is.

Better to do in blocks or tiers. Better picture of things, IMO.

[RightToCensor]

Yea, do Kobe now.:oldlol:
How about you do it since you want to request it.

I'm here pointing out how people love to underrate Hakeem Olajuwon and how he's regarded as one of, if not the greatest all around center in NBA History. To be ranked 10th All-Time in Points and 13th All-Time in Rebounds during the peak of center play is amazing, adding to the fact that he's Top 10 in both Blocks and Steals is otherworldly.

It's hard to discredit that talent out of the Top 10 when you factor in the positional competition he went up against.

[branslowski]

How about you do it since you want to request it.

I'm here pointing out how people love to underrate Hakeem Olajuwon and how he's regarded as one of, if not the greatest all around center in NBA History. To be ranked 10th All-Time in Points and 13th All-Time in Rebounds during the peak of center play is amazing, adding to the fact that he's Top 10 in both Blocks and Steals is otherworldly.

It's hard to discredit that talent out of the Top 10 when you factor in the positional competition he went up against.

k.

Kobe 11x All-NBA 1st Team
Kobe 9x All-Defensive First Team
Kobe 17x All-Star

Same 2 Finals MVP's and more Titles.:bowdown:

[KendrickPerkins]

Not to mention IMO only behind Jordan, Shaq, and LBJ peakwise

For me a really big problem is he never led the league in WS (Win shares when used in context is actually a very good stat imo for star players. Look at WS leaders, pretty representative of best player that season http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly.html)

Where's Kobe?

:oldlol:

[rmt]

Where's Kobe?

:oldlol:

Kobe is usually nowhere to be found when it comes to advanced stats.

[RightToCensor]

Pretty sure this dude is agenda driven...

I'll just say that I have Kobe Bryant 7th and Shaquille O'Neal 8th on my All-Time rankings and Hakeem tied for 10th with Lebron James.

[West-Side]

Hakeem Olajuwon:

10th All-Time in Points
13th All-Time in Rebounds
9th All-Time in Assists (for centers)
1st All-Time in Blocks
9th All-Time in Steals


6x All-NBA 1st Team
3x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team

12x All-Star
2x Defensive Player of the Year
2x Finals MVP
1x NBA Most Valuable Player

3rd All-Time in Points
1st All-Time in Rebounds (for his position)
2nd in All-Time in Assists (for his position, only 3 behind Drexler)
41st All-Time in Steals

17 All-Stars
1 MVP
2 Finals MVP

11 x 1st Team All-NBA
2 x 2nd Team All-NBA
2 x 3rd Team All-NBA

Also,

Kobe

17 - Time Player of the Month
33- Time Player of the Week

5 - NBA Championships
7 - Conference Titles
173.1 Win Share (15th)
123.0 Offensive Win Share (12th)
1.000 Hall of Fame Probability
23.2 PER (19th)

Hakeem

6 - Player of the Month
12 - Player of the Week

162.8 Win Share (18th)
68.3 Offensive Win Share (55th)
23.6 PER (16th)

So Kobe has more conference titles, championships, more all-star selections, has more career points and assists. Has more 1st team All-NBA's, higher offensive win share and higher win share. Hakeem has more steals and blocks, slightly higher PER rating and 2 DPOTY awards.

[Rocketswin2013]

Not to mention IMO only behind Jordan, Shaq, and LBJ peakwise

For me a really big problem is he never led the league in WS (Win shares when used in context is actually a very good stat imo for star players. Look at WS leaders, pretty representative of best player that season http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly.html)

Anything from 7-11 is reasonable for Hakeem imo
His teammates really sucked and it hurt his scoring efficiency(TOV) and offensive winshares. As a talent, he was much better than his actual impact. His impact was actually a bit better than his advanced stats because he was anchoring top 5 defenses with scubs most here have never heard of, but his situations fcked him.

Hakeem could've been a lot better in better situations in the early part of his career.

[KendrickPerkins]

Kobe is usually nowhere to be found when it comes to advanced stats.
aha...

Mr. Eye Test.

Mr. Alpha.

http://i.imgur.com/XpLGQ68.jpg

:bowdown:

[rezznor]

I would rather build my team around a prime Hakeem or LeBron over prime kobe

[Genaro]

I know there isn't much people who agree but I don't have Bill Russell on my top 10.

[Wade's Rings]

I know there isn't much people who agree but I don't have Bill Russell on my top 10.

Because of him playing in weak era?

[Wade's Rings]

3rd All-Time in Points
1st All-Time in Rebounds (for his position)
2nd in All-Time in Assists (for his position, only 3 behind Drexler)
41st All-Time in Steals

17 All-Stars
1 MVP
2 Finals MVP

11 x 1st Team All-NBA
2 x 2nd Team All-NBA
2 x 3rd Team All-NBA

Also,

Kobe

17 - Time Player of the Month
33- Time Player of the Week

5 - NBA Championships
7 - Conference Titles
173.1 Win Share (15th)
123.0 Offensive Win Share (12th)
1.000 Hall of Fame Probability
23.2 PER (19th)

Hakeem

6 - Player of the Month
12 - Player of the Week

162.8 Win Share (18th)
68.3 Offensive Win Share (55th)
23.6 PER (16th)

So Kobe has more conference titles, championships, more all-star selections, has more career points and assists. Has more 1st team All-NBA's, higher offensive win share and higher win share. Hakeem has more steals and blocks, slightly higher PER rating and 2 DPOTY awards.

:oldlol:

[West-Side]

:oldlol:

Hey I didn't include those awards into my final deliberation! :cheers: :lol

[branslowski]

3rd All-Time in Points
1st All-Time in Rebounds (for his position)
2nd in All-Time in Assists (for his position, only 3 behind Drexler)
41st All-Time in Steals

17 All-Stars
1 MVP
2 Finals MVP

11 x 1st Team All-NBA
2 x 2nd Team All-NBA
2 x 3rd Team All-NBA

Also,

Kobe

17 - Time Player of the Month
33- Time Player of the Week

5 - NBA Championships
7 - Conference Titles
173.1 Win Share (15th)
123.0 Offensive Win Share (12th)
1.000 Hall of Fame Probability
23.2 PER (19th)

Hakeem

6 - Player of the Month
12 - Player of the Week

162.8 Win Share (18th)
68.3 Offensive Win Share (55th)
23.6 PER (16th)

So Kobe has more conference titles, championships, more all-star selections, has more career points and assists. Has more 1st team All-NBA's, higher offensive win share and higher win share. Hakeem has more steals and blocks, slightly higher PER rating and 2 DPOTY awards.

Facts.

[rmt]

Hey I didn't include those awards into my final deliberation! :cheers: :lol

I'll give you credit: you didn't try to use Kobe's all-defensive awards in a debate vs Hakeem. You know what a fallacy that would be.

[mehyaM24]

shaq is a top 5 player, at the very least top 6 or 7.

any idiot that leave him out of their 10 should just quit watching basketball. the sport isn't for you.

[Rocketswin2013]

I'll give you credit: you didn't try to use Kobe's all-defensive awards in a debate vs Hakeem. You know what a fallacy that would be.
Right. :oldlol:


Hakeem also tops Kobe as a playoff performer. And was probably the second-best big game player of the entire 90's decade, only behind Jordan.

[theoneneo]

I would rather build my team around a prime Hakeem or LeBron over prime kobe

Lebron is most likely to leave your team, or hold your team hostage.

You get Prime Kobe one half dcenet All star and you win Rings :applause:

[ZMonkey11]

Lebron is most likely to leave your team, or hold your team hostage.

You get Prime Kobe one half dcenet All star and you win Rings :applause:

If you don't get that All-star, he threatens to leave.

Also, if you give him too many all-stars, his team tends to suck.

[RightToCensor]

I'd love to see people's All-Time lists instead of them mindlessly bashing Hakeem Olajuwon to prop Kobe Bryant.

I don't even understand why people are getting sensitive trying to bring down Hakeem Olajuwon.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Where's Kobe?

:oldlol:

Kobe gets the nod for me ahead of Hakeem because although his peak was definitely meh, 5 rings is still hard to ignore. Also, his longevity has been much better than Hakeem's. I can totally see other people ranking Hakeem ahead of Kobe though. Was an amazing defensive bigman that also became an amazing offensive scorer later in his career

This is my all time list btw

1 mj
2 kaj
3 russell
4 wilt
5 magic
6 duncan
7 shaq
8 lebron
9 bird
10 kobe
11 hakeem

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe gets the nod for me ahead of Hakeem because although his peak was definitely meh, 5 rings is still hard to ignore. Also, his longevity has been much better than Hakeem's. I can totally see other people ranking Hakeem ahead of Kobe though. Was an amazing defensive bigman that also became an amazing offensive scorer later in his career

This is my all time list btw

1 mj
2 kaj
3 russell
4 wilt
5 magic
6 duncan
7 shaq
8 lebron
9 bird
10 kobe
11 hakeem

Brah, 81 points, an MVP, 3 straight Finals, and 2 Finals MVP's is "meh"?

[nzahir]

Brah, 81 points, an MVP, 3 straight Finals, and 2 Finals MVP's is "meh"?
Its not meh, but its certainly not better than a guy like lebron or shaq so they have to stay there.
Lebron: 4 mvps, 2 fmvps, 2 rings
Shaq: 3 rings, an mvp, 3 fmvp

Both guys won as many or up to 3 more mvps than kobe, kobe's 2 fmvps is same as lebron but has 3 less mvps and still 1 under shaq in terms of fmvps. Kobe also had worst stats of those 3 in prime.

[SouBeachTalents]

Its not meh, but its certainly not better than a guy like lebron or shaq so they have to stay there.
Lebron: 4 mvps, 2 fmvps, 2 rings
Shaq: 3 mvps, an mvp, 3 fmvp

Both guys won as many or up to 3 more mvps than kobe, kobe's 2 fmvps is same as lebron but has 3 less mvps and still 1 under shaq in terms of fmvps. Kobe also had worst stats of those 3 in prime.

:biggums: Shaq has as many MVP's as Kobe

[nzahir]

:biggums: Shaq has as many MVP's as Kobe
My bad I meant to put rings; still got an extra fmvp and the stats

[ZMonkey11]

Shaq has 4 rings.....

[West-Side]

Its not meh, but its certainly not better than a guy like lebron or shaq so they have to stay there.
Lebron: 4 mvps, 2 fmvps, 2 rings
Shaq: 3 rings, an mvp, 3 fmvp

Both guys won as many or up to 3 more mvps than kobe, kobe's 2 fmvps is same as lebron but has 3 less mvps and still 1 under shaq in terms of fmvps. Kobe also had worst stats of those 3 in prime.

James never won shit without Wade & Bosh; Shaquille has never won shit without Kobe & Wade, yet Kobe managed to make three straight final appearances with Gasol & Odom.

And that's not better? :rolleyes:

Nick Van Axel, Eddie Jones & Elden Campbell is easily comparable to having Fisher, Odom & Gasol as teammates. What has Shaq done with them or with Penny?

[riseagainst]

according to anti-kobe guys on this forum, Gasol > Wade and Bosh, and Gasol > 00-02 Kobe

:lol

[ArbitraryWater]

according to anti-kobe guys on this forum, Gasol > Wade and Bosh, and Gasol > 00-02 Kobe

:lol

2008-2010 Gasol > 2012-2014 Wade :confusedshrug:
2008-2010 Odom = 2012-2014 Bosh

[nzahir]

Shaq has 4 rings.....
I was talking about prime. mia wasnt his prime like how kobes first 3 rings werent his prime

[kamil]

LeBron most likely

Bingo. Losing records in NBA finals dont get you into the top 10.

[kamil]

James never won shit without Wade & Bosh; Shaquille has never won shit without Kobe & Wade, yet Kobe managed to make three straight final appearances with Gasol & Odom.

And that's not better? :rolleyes:

Nick Van Axel, Eddie Jones & Elden Campbell is easily comparable to having Fisher, Odom & Gasol as teammates. What has Shaq done with them or with Penny?

Nobody ever won shit on their own though, so it's a meaningless argument.

[aau]

haha

shaq not top 10?

[Showtime2001]

2008-2010 Gasol > 2012-2014 Wade :confusedshrug:
2008-2010 Odom = 2012-2014 Bosh
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee212/RedSoxPrince/mj-laughing.gif