'The Godfather' Question: Did Michael in someway blame Tom for Sonny's death?

[Tarik One]

"You're not a wartime consigliere"......"You're out, Tom"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/67/Tom_Hagen.jpg/250px-Tom_Hagen.jpg
I've always had a feeling that Michael had some residual anger towards Tom after Sonny's death. He may have felt that Tom being Consigliere should have been more protective of Sonny even to the point of protecting Sonny from himself. Everyone knew he was an impulsive hothead. You don't let the boss of a family drive off by himself even if it involves his sister.

Just my take...

[DonDadda59]

I think Michael just knew that Tom was too much of a diplomat and would never go along with a purging of the leadership of the rival families. Earlier in the movie he was initially against the murder of the police captain because he knew that the family's political and law enforcement connections would sever all ties with the Corleones. It took Michael coming up with the newspaper manipulation to convince Tom it might be a good strategy (I also think that was the first time Hagen was impressed by Michael's potential leadership).

He was also against hitting Tattaglia's son and wanted to make a deal with Sollozo and the other families instead of going to war when he was Sonny's consigliere (after the 2 attempts on Vito). I don't think he faulted Hagen at all for what happened to Sonny. He understood Sonny was a hothead and would've never listened to Hagen anyway.

[KirbyPls]

I think Michael just knew that Tom was too much of a diplomat and would never go along with a purging of the leadership of the rival families. Earlier in the movie he was initially against the murder of the police captain because he knew that the family's political and law enforcement connections would sever all ties with the Corleones. It took Michael coming up with the newspaper manipulation to convince Tom it might be a good strategy (I also think that was the first time Hagen was impressed by Michael's potential leadership).

He was also against hitting Tattaglia's son and wanted to make a deal with Sollozo and the other families instead of going to war when he was Sonny's consigliere (after the 2 attempts on Vito). I don't think he faulted Hagen at all for what happened to Sonny. He understood Sonny was a hothead and would've never listened to Hagen anyway.

Great take Don! Now, if you would only see the light on Lebron :lol . I think Tom was much more pragmatic businessman than true gangster; preferring quiet, sustained profitability for the family in its position of substantial power within the fictional Commission, then personal, bloody alpha or family centric beefs. Although very intelligent, perhaps he was a bit naive in thinking that business could continue to roll along and expand without fellow mobsters pulling power plays to take a larger slice for themselves and their mafia families. But, to be fair to Tom, there could have been significant unintended consequences to the Family from both the Sollozo murder and the purge of the fellow bosses, since both were high-risk, unpredictable reward propositions.

[DonDadda59]

Now, if you would only see the light on Lebron :lol .

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3448574/don-corleone-slap-o.gif



I think Tom was much more pragmatic businessman than true gangster; preferring quiet, sustained profitability for the family in its position of substantial power within the fictional Commission, then personal, bloody alpha or family centric beefs. Although very intelligent, perhaps he was a bit naive in thinking that business could continue to roll along and expand without fellow mobsters pulling power plays to take a larger slice for themselves and their mafia families. But, to be fair to Tom, there could have been significant unintended consequences to the Family from both the Sollozo murder and the purge of the fellow bosses, since both were high-risk, unpredictable reward propositions.

The funny thing is, after all the fighting and hits on both sides, in the end when Vito is back in the big chair the syndicate ended up making a deal about drugs like Hagen had wanted the first time Sollozo/Barzini attempted to hit Vito. And yeah, Michael's decisions were extremely risky and put the family in serious danger and someone as pragmatic as Hagen would've never supported the boss purge. Killing police officials and politicians is a no no for obvious reasons. And killing of the heads of the other families would've most likely led to an all out war in real life.

The films never go into detail about the immediate ramifications of the baptism murders. Can't imagine the subordinates of Tattaglia, Cuneo, Stracci, and Barzini would've just shrugged off the head of their families being rubbed out. It's possible Michael made deals with the underbosses and consiglieres of the other families beforehand, maybe the novel goes into the backstory but I haven't read it.

[KirbyPls]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3448574/don-corleone-slap-o.gif




The funny thing is, after all the fighting and hits on both sides, in the end when Vito is back in the big chair the syndicate ended up making a deal about drugs like Hagen had wanted the first time Sollozo/Barzini attempted to hit Vito. And yeah, Michael's decisions were extremely risky and put the family in serious danger and someone as pragmatic as Hagen would've never supported the boss purge. Killing police officials and politicians is a no no for obvious reasons. And killing of the heads of the other families would've most likely led to an all out war in real life.



The films never go into detail about the immediate ramifications of the baptism murders. Can't imagine the subordinates of Tattaglia, Cuneo, Stracci, and Barzini would've just shrugged off the head of their families being rubbed out. It's possible Michael made deals with the underbosses and consiglieres of the other families beforehand, maybe the novel goes into the backstory but I haven't read it.

Agree, and the GOAT actor slapping .gif is perfect to my comment. :applause: (I know MJ >LBJ forever, just thought I'd throw that out).

Don, have you read the Five Families by Raab? I'm going to bet you have given your real-world mafia knowledge I've seen in other posts. If not, it's a treat and then some for anyone interested in the New York mafia. :cheers:

Also agree on the fallout from the bosses' murders. The most logical/realistic explanation would have to involve deals with underbosses, contracts, bigger slices of the rackets, I can't imagine Michael (a pragmatist in his own right) not carefully laying a solid foundation before a move like that.

[DonDadda59]

Don, have you read the Five Families by Raab? I'm going to bet you have given your real-world mafia knowledge I've seen in other posts. If not, it's a treat and then some for anyone interested in the New York mafia. :cheers:

Haven't read it but definitely on my to-read list.


Also agree on the fallout from the bosses' murders. The most logical/realistic explanation would have to involve deals with underbosses, contracts, bigger slices of the rackets, I can't imagine Michael (a pragmatist in his own right) not carefully laying a solid foundation before a move like that.

Yeah that' the most likely, not shown on screen version of what happened. Tom makes it clear that Michael put together a secret regime (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESBg8PBCi64) led by Rocco Lampone and had Al Nieri reporting directly to him, which was out of the norm. I assume Lampone put together the hit squads and planned the actual murders while Nieri was secretly negotiating deals with the underbosses/consiglieres of the other families.

Whenever a boss was hit in the History of organized crime, there was always a concerted effort made to bring along the target's subordinate in order to avoid war/chaos. Luciano was underboss to both Masseria and Maranzano when he agreed/plotted to kill them. When Genovese wanted Anastasia eliminated, he enlisted his underboss Carlo Gambino in the plot. Galante was killed with the help of his own personal bodyguard. Etc and so on.

Only makes sense that Michael didn't make his move until all the pieces were in place.

[BasedTom]

part 2 shows that michael is just as flawed as sonny and fredo are

Vito >>>>>>

[KirbyPls]

Haven't read it but definitely on my to-read list.



Yeah that' the most likely, not shown on screen version of what happened. Tom makes it clear that Michael put together a secret regime (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESBg8PBCi64) led by Rocco Lampone and had Al Nieri reporting directly to him, which was out of the norm. I assume Lampone put together the hit squads and planned the actual murders while Nieri was secretly negotiating deals with the underbosses/consiglieres of the other families.

Whenever a boss was hit in the History of organized crime, there was always a concerted effort made to bring along the target's subordinate in order to avoid war/chaos. Luciano was underboss to both Masseria and Maranzano when he agreed/plotted to kill them. When Genovese wanted Anastasia eliminated, he enlisted his underboss Carlo Gambino in the plot. Galante was killed with the help of his own personal bodyguard. Etc and so on.

Only makes sense that Michael didn't make his move until all the pieces were in place.

You have to read "Five Families" homie, it's amazing, though you probably won't find many spoilers. The writing, insight and quotations drawn from interviews, court transcripts and wiretaps are worth the price of admission alone. Finally, it ties the New York Mob up in a comprehensive history from the beginning. At over 700 pages, it's a quick, highly entertaining read. Anyway, there's my plug.

[KirbyPls]

part 2 shows that michael is just as flawed as sonny and fredo are

Vito >>>>>>

Vito was great, but like Russell and Wilt, his time was easier than Michael's to be a criminal racketeer. Not to mention, Michael arguably built a greater empire of wealth for his himself and his close associates than Vito ever did (if we agree that Godfather III actually happened :lol ).

Michael > Vito > Sonny

HM: Fredo

[Stempel, HERB]

Grown ass Negro finna tryna to pretend he's not some Chimp by discussing "fine" film.

Nikka no one need to be thinking about nothing. Don't waste ya energy on these kinda things that are above your level.

Cotton fields are all the exercise you'll ever need.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

I honestly don't remember the last time I watched 'The Godfather' as a whole. It's been at least 4 years...