new york plans $15/hr wage for fast food workers

[RidonKs]

http://www.impdb.org/images/6/65/Apocalypse_Now_Huey11.jpg


"in labour victory news..." (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/22/in-labor-victory-fast-food-workers-in-new-york-will-get-a-15-minimum-wage/)


The boost comes as a result of Gov. Andrew Cuomo's decision to convene a Wage Board, which has the power to set a new minimum for the fast food industry's 200,000 workers in New York without the approval of the state legislature. On Wednesday, the Board recommended that the new floor be phased in, rising to $15 by the end of 2018 in New York City, and July of 2021 for the rest of the state.

"The entire process has been a sham and the cards have been stacked against the hard-working men and women that own and operate New York’s restaurants from day one,” the Save NY Restaurants Coalition said in a statement after the vote. “Today’s decision will hurt the very people Governor Cuomo is purportedly trying to help. Restaurants will be forced to streamline labor costs through automation and attrition or close their doors completely."

The extent to which the wage hike will actually impact customers, however, is still hard to predict. In places where large wage increases have started to take effect, prices have risen, but so far there’s no solid indication of how those changes have affected sales.


the apocalypse is here folks! no longer will pay hinge on merit. no longer will hard work pay off. forget busting your hump to better yourself. you're no better than a fast food worker.

mass of commie yahoos joining en force to hijack negotiations and blackmail healthy business into meeting excessive and outrageous demands. what do they call it again... a strike? yeah this is strike ONE, wait til these no name jobs get automated in a few years and they'll be OUT on the street.

fking queers all of em

[riseagainst]

i can understand 15/hr in New York. Just look at their cost of living.... most salaries there are higher than else where anyway.

[9erempiree]

I have to disagree with the OP.

Why is it end of the world? I think we need to stop this stigma about fast food workers. If the company is willing to pay $15 hour, instead of complaining, people should should work for them.

These fast food chains make billions off cheap labor. It is only right to pay their workers.

[RightToCensor]

Knicks101 be rubbing his hands like Birdman

[9erempiree]

i can understand 15/hr in New York. Just look at their cost of living.... most salaries there are higher than else where anyway.

this.

It's crazy how people complain about something they have no idea of.

[RidonKs]

Why is it end of the world? I think we need to stop this stigma about fast food workers. If the company is willing to pay $15 hour, instead of complaining, people should should work for them.
companies ARENT willing to pay numbnuts, this is legislated

[UK2K]

As the implementation date for Seattle’s strict $15 per hour minimum wage law approaches, the city is experiencing a rising trend in restaurant closures. The tough new law goes into effect April 1st. The closings have occurred across the city, from Grub in the upscale Queen Anne Hill neighborhood, to Little Uncle in gritty Pioneer Square, to the Boat Street Cafe on Western Avenue near the waterfront.

The shut-downs have idled dozens of low-wage workers, the very people advocates say the wage law is supposed to help. Instead of delivering the promised “living wage” of $15 an hour, economic realities created by the new law have dropped the hourly wage for these workers to zero.

Advocates of a high minimum wage said businesses would simply pay the mandated wage out of profits, raising earnings for workers. Restaurants operate on thin margins, though, with average profits of 4% or less, and the business is highly competitive.

From Forbes.

You'll also notice, the amount of those on welfare in Seattle (and parts of California with an overly inflated minimum wage) hasn't gone down. Why?

Because if you make too much, you lose your handouts.

All the law did was cost people jobs, and make others who make $16-$20 resentful that someone with little to no value in the workforce suddenly makes a comparable wage.

[Droid101]

Knicks101 be rubbing his hands like Birdman
http://media.giphy.com/media/14gTIff2SHbNf2/giphy.gif

[West-Side]

companies ARENT willing to pay numbnuts, this is legislated

Are you talking about private restaurants or franchisee owners?
Which sector are you talking about when it comes to fast food?

Because if you're actually symphatetic towards franchisee owners; than you need to do some research. Those guys pay between $120,000 to 2/3M per store (depending on the location) and reap huge profits. If you have money it's one of the best investments you can make (McDonalds for example). I know people who own 5 to 10 stores because they have money. The HQ controls the entire operation; they literally provide the owners with the guidelines on how they need to operate each store and come for quarterly audits.

Point is; if we're talking about fast food franchises; those owners can easily afford to pay workers $15/hour. Trust me I've seen their books. I was doing inventory management for one of the owners while attending University and taking care of his deliveries. I was calculating his profits and ratios every weekend. The man was making large cash. The royalties aren't even that high.

[9erempiree]

All the law did was cost people jobs, and make others who make $16-$20 resentful that someone with little to no value in the workforce suddenly makes a comparable wage.

Why the resentment? If it's a comparable wage with little to no value, why not join them? Oh wait, they rather have their office job instead of actually busting their ass behind a grill.

You get what I am saying here.

The only resentment one should have is towards their employers for not increasing their wages accordingly to the state's.

[longtime lurker]

You'll also notice, the amount of those on welfare in Seattle (and parts of California with an overly inflated minimum wage) hasn't gone down. Why?

Because if you make too much, you lose your handouts.

All the law did was cost people jobs, and make others who make $16-$20 resentful that someone with little to no value in the workforce suddenly makes a comparable wage.

Can you provide a link to the article. As per the article itself the legislation hadn't even gone into effect when these restaurants were shutting down so to apply causality in this case is premature. All these scare tactics are bullshit. The world isn't going to come to a halt because the people flipping burgers are making $15 dollars an hour.

[UK2K]

Can you provide a link to the article. As per the article itself the legislation hadn't even gone into effect when these restaurants were shutting down so to apply causality in this case is premature. All these scare tactics are bullshit. The world isn't going to come to a halt because the people flipping burgers are making $15 dollars an hour.

Sure.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/03/16/we-are-seeing-the-effects-of-seattles-15-an-hour-minimum-wage/

[dazzer87]

still not enough to live in NY......

[9erempiree]

Can you provide a link to the article. As per the article itself the legislation hadn't even gone into effect when these restaurants were shutting down so to apply causality in this case is premature. All these scare tactics are bullshit. The world isn't going to come to a halt because the people flipping burgers are making $15 dollars an hour.

They're not just 'flipping burgers', I like to equate them to assembly line workers for GM and Ford. Essentially everything comes down through an assembly line in a fast food restaurant. GM workers are only screwing screws? Pushing tires?

Assembly line workers get paid so I don't see a problem with fast food workers getting paid. The company is making money off cheap labor that is why there is negativity towards 'burger flippers'.

Take notice people...working at fast food joints are not that bad. I suggest those that need a job, apply to these places.

[RidonKs]

They're not just 'flipping burgers', I like to equate them to assembly line workers for GM and Ford. Essentially everything comes down through an assembly line in a fast food restaurant. GM workers are only screwing screws? Pushing tires?
fk off dude, there's a difference between assembling a vehicle and assembling a hamburger. nobody's squirting kethup up the exhaust for flavour. might as well give $30/hr to the guy who details your car.

[UK2K]

Why the resentment? If it's a comparable wage with little to no value, why not join them? Oh wait, they rather have their office job instead of actually busting their ass behind a grill.

You get what I am saying here.

The only resentment one should have is towards their employers for not increasing their wages accordingly to the state's.

No resentment.

I'll ask you a very simple question.

You own a sandwhich shop. Your restaurant operates with a 4% profit margin (check me if you want, but I am pretty damn close). Now, your labor costs (which make up about 1/3 of your costs) has doubled. What would you do?

Here are your choices:

1) Increase food prices 20-30% and pass the bill onto your customers, which is likely to kill your business. Your $8 sandwich now costs $12.

2) Fire people. Only way to keep the cost of labor down.

3) Do nothing, and lose money.

You have to pick one. Good luck.

[UK2K]

They're not just 'flipping burgers', I like to equate them to assembly line workers for GM and Ford. Essentially everything comes down through an assembly line in a fast food restaurant. GM workers are only screwing screws? Pushing tires?

Assembly line workers get paid so I don't see a problem with fast food workers getting paid. The company is making money off cheap labor that is why there is negativity towards 'burger flippers'.

Take notice people...working at fast food joints are not that bad. I suggest those that need a job, apply to these places.

These are meant to be introductory, temporary jobs.

They aren't designed for someone to cook fries for 30 years.

They're meant for the young, high schoolers, summer jobs, college students. That's why the wage is so low. It's not meant to make a living off of.

Why, after X amount of years at McDonalds, have you not moved up or gotten another job somewhere else? Because obviously, you are a shitty employee.

You are only paid for the value you can add to a company. Period. Well, you used to be.

[Kblaze8855]

The "But people making that much now will be upset that a single mother working at mcdonalds can now afford to feed her kids" logic is hilarious to me. Worry about your money. Some poor person getting slightly more money means nothing negative to me even if im...relative to them...less well off.

Most things we buy just aren't gonna change drastically in price over such an issue. Like my life is really impacted if a whopper is 3.35 instead of 2.89 or whatever the hell it is.

A few Subways or whatever closing means nothing to me. And the couple hundred thousand they have no choice but employ will be better off. Greater good. What...they gonna automate making a sandwich? There is only so much machines can do and have someone still come pay for it.

Sure...a machine could make a sandwich...but being real...that isn't gonna happen in any major way at a place like subway or chick fila.

The places already work with as few people as they can get away with. They don't have much room to lose workers.

Dollar menus will go to 1.89 and the world will keep spinning.

[KingBeasley08]

I don't got a problem with this at all. $15/hr is probably perfect for NYC

[9erempiree]

No resentment.

I'll ask you a very simple question.

You own a sandwhich shop. Your restaurant operates with a 4% profit margin (check me if you want, but I am pretty damn close). Now, your labor costs (which make up about 1/3 of your costs) has doubled. What would you do?

Here are your choices:

1) Increase food prices 20-30% and pass the bill onto your customers, which is likely to kill your business. Your $8 sandwich now costs $12.

2) Fire people. Only way to keep the cost of labor down.

3) Do nothing, and lose money.

You have to pick one. Good luck.

4) Lower the cost of the supply line such as lower the cost of raw goods/materials, ingredients to compensate for cost. Implement robotics, in which they have already started doing. Eventually there will be less workers in a restaurant even though they are making $15/hr.

[UK2K]

4) Lower the cost of the supply line such as lower the cost of raw goods/materials, ingredients to compensate for cost.
So cheaper, shittier food?

They do that now. That's why they are spraying poisonous shit all over our food.

[Kblaze8855]

fk off dude, there's a difference between assembling a vehicle and assembling a hamburger. nobody's squirting kethup up the exhaust for flavour. might as well give $30/hr to the guy who details your car.


Dude....I live like 6 exits from the BMW plant in Spartanburg. Half the area works for them directly or indirectly. They have a plant with 12-15000 workers at any given time...which doesn't count a few thousand people in logistics.

I have friends who have both worked at KFC and building BMWs.

Skills required...no real difference. These people aren't building cars. They stand you in one spot and have to lift a door from here to there. Hit a button so the machine paints the car. You scan a box and tap a PDA. You drive a car from the end of the line to a parking lot.

It doesn't take any real...skills. They aren't hand building anything. These aren't Rolls royces in the 50s. Cars are built by machine as people who barely graduated HS stand by. I know....because I have 5-6 friends doing it. Two of them got a GED after 10 years to go get the job.

Starts at 16 dollars an hour for a TEMP. 18-21 on the line. These people have no real skills. They are the same people working fast food. Literally. I know MANY. These guys are nothing special. I know some straight up losers building BMWs.

Im not saying they don't deserve the money...people get what they get. But I am saying...it doesn't take any special skill.

Those days are over.

Its pretty much grunt work....at least at BMW. You have a GED and can get some clean piss you could do every single part of assembling a BMW in 2 weeks.

[Nanners]

Cool, but this should apply to all min wage workers, not just people in fast food.

[West-Side]

The "But people making that much now will be upset that a single mother working at mcdonalds can now afford to feed her kids" logic is hilarious to me. Worry about your money. Some poor person getting slightly more money means nothing negative to me even if im...relative to them...less well off.

Most things we buy just aren't gonna change drastically in price over such an issue. Like my life is really impacted if a whopper is 3.35 instead of 2.89 or whatever the hell it is.

A few Subways or whatever closing means nothing to me. And the couple hundred thousand they have no choice but employ will be better off. Greater good. What...they gonna automate making a sandwich? There is only so much machines can do and have someone still come pay for it.

Sure...a machine could make a sandwich...but being real...that isn't gonna happen in any major way at a place like subway or chick fila.

The places already work with as few people as they can get away with. They don't have much room to lose workers.

Dollar menus will go to 1.89 and the world will keep spinning.

I wish you could be the mayor of every state; great logic, I feel exactly the same way. There's a reason Greed is one of the seven deadly sins.

People who make 70k+ should not be concerned with a poor person making 15+/hour. You're still way better off.

15+/hour equals like 30,000 a year. :rolleyes:

[Akrazotile]

The "But people making that much now will be upset that a single mother working at mcdonalds can now afford to feed her kids" logic is hilarious to me. Worry about your money. Some poor person getting slightly more money means nothing negative to me even if im...relative to them...less well off.

Most things we buy just aren't gonna change drastically in price over such an issue. Like my life is really impacted if a whopper is 3.35 instead of 2.89 or whatever the hell it is.

A few Subways or whatever closing means nothing to me. And the couple hundred thousand they have no choice but employ will be better off. Greater good. What...they gonna automate making a sandwich? There is only so much machines can do and have someone still come pay for it.

Sure...a machine could make a sandwich...but being real...that isn't gonna happen in any major way at a place like subway or chick fila.

The places already work with as few people as they can get away with. They don't have much room to lose workers.

Dollar menus will go to 1.89 and the world will keep spinning.



The people who will be paying those increases are the "single mothers feeding their family" who are getting the pay increase.


These increases dont make a difference one way or another. These people will make more money, they'll pay more taxes, their rent will go up commensurately, as will the products they buy. It's simple inflation.

A fast food job will still be a bottom rung job regardless of whether the bottm rung is paid 8 an hour, or theyre paid 15 and other costs inflate in relation. And in a few years, the same naive complaints about the unfairness of making a living at a register-operaters wage will continue.

Labor and wages are about supply and demand. If you want to believe this is going to improve people lives, go for it. Youre the exact kind of person this veneer of "justice" is meant to temporarily appease. The politicians know that.

[NumberSix]

Dude....I live like 6 exits from the BMW plant in Spartanburg. Half the area works for them directly or indirectly. They have a plant with 12-15000 workers at any given time...which doesn't count a few thousand people in logistics.

I have friends who have both worked at KFC and building BMWs.

Skills required...no real difference. These people aren't building cars. They stand you in one spot and have to lift a door from here to there. Hit a button so the machine paints the car. You scan a box and tap a PDA. You drive a car from the end of the line to a parking lot.

It doesn't take any real...skills. They aren't hand building anything. These aren't Rolls royces in the 50s. Cars are built by machine as people who barely graduated HS stand by. I know....because I have 5-6 friends doing it. Two of them got a GED after 10 years to go get the job.

Starts at 16 dollars an hour for a TEMP. 18-21 on the line. These people have no real skills. They are the same people working fast food. Literally. I know MANY. These guys are nothing special. I know some straight up losers building BMWs.

Im not saying they don't deserve the money...people get what they get. But I am saying...it doesn't take any special skill.

Those days are over.

Its pretty much grunt work....at least at BMW. You have a GED and can get some clean piss you could do every single part of assembling a BMW in 2 weeks.
BMWs are painted by humans, not machines.

[Kblaze8855]

One of my best friends works in the paint shop at the Spartanburg BMW plant. He doesn't paint a ****ing thing. Perhaps someone does. I cant say ive asked for specifics. I know hes worked there in the paint shop for 8 years....and has never painted anything. I'll get more details beforei m all in on that though.

[UK2K]

Dude....I live like 6 exits from the BMW plant in Spartanburg. Half the area works for them directly or indirectly. They have a plant with 12-15000 workers at any given time...which doesn't count a few thousand people in logistics.

I have friends who have both worked at KFC and building BMWs.

Skills required...no real difference. These people aren't building cars. They stand you in one spot and have to lift a door from here to there. Hit a button so the machine paints the car. You scan a box and tap a PDA. You drive a car from the end of the line to a parking lot.

It doesn't take any real...skills. They aren't hand building anything. These aren't Rolls royces in the 50s. Cars are built by machine as people who barely graduated HS stand by. I know....because I have 5-6 friends doing it. Two of them got a GED after 10 years to go get the job.

Starts at 16 dollars an hour for a TEMP. 18-21 on the line. These people have no real skills. They are the same people working fast food. Literally. I know MANY. These guys are nothing special. I know some straight up losers building BMWs.

Im not saying they don't deserve the money...people get what they get. But I am saying...it doesn't take any special skill.

Those days are over.

Its pretty much grunt work....at least at BMW. You have a GED and can get some clean piss you could do every single part of assembling a BMW in 2 weeks.

The profit margin for a BMW (about 9-12%) is a lot more than the profit margin for a sandwich (about 4%).

Which is why BMW pays more.

That, and the fact there are different standards in the work place. Is it harder to get a job at McDonalds or BMW? There's another reason why BMW can pay more.

Its called supply and demand.

[Akrazotile]

Min wage in China is like 50 yuan an hour.

FIFTY an hour!!! Laborers in China livin good af :applause:





:ohwell:


LOL @ people so easily fooled by raw numbers.

[Kblaze8855]

And I know its the poor people who will be paying the increases on the dollar menu. I almost mentioned in the post you quoted.

Its not gonna impact me. And the reason the poor eat so terribly is how cheap awful foods are. Frankly...I think too many kids are eating 5 dollar hot n ready pizzas as it is. If they were 7 dollars....8...I suspect a kid might get a actual meal cooked now and then.

But that's a whole other issue.

[UK2K]

Min wage in China is like 50 yuan an hour.

FIFTY an hour!!! Laborers in China livin good af :applause:





:ohwell:


LOL @ people so easily fooled by raw numbers.

France/Belgium/Luxembourg have the highest minimum wage on Earth (when monetized to American dollars) at about $10.80 per year.

Yet, we want $15 :lol

[Akrazotile]

France/Belgium/Luxembourg have the highest minimum wage on Earth (when monetized to American dollars) at about $10.80 per year.

Yet, we want $15 :lol


But dude, that's like 30 francs an hour!

Them dudes gettin 30 an hour and we only gettin 8???


Bullshit man. Get the politicians to fix this, NOW. Politicians will make it all better and make all the poor people, like, at least middle class if not rich.


I believe in HOPE and CHANGE.

Are you?!?

[UK2K]

And I know its the poor people who will be paying the increases on the dollar menu. I almost mentioned in the post you quoted.

Its not gonna impact me. And the reason the poor eat so terribly is how cheap awful foods are. Frankly...I think too many kids are eating 5 dollar hot n ready pizzas as it is. If they were 7 dollars....8...I suspect a kid might get a actual meal cooked now and then.

But that's a whole other issue.

I agree, healthy food is too expensive.

All this means is we will see an increase in the amount of food stamps issued per month.

Here's the best part:

[QUOTE]Seattle

[Kblaze8855]

Takes a lot longer to get a job at BMW....they have a huge waiting list. Far as what it takes to get it? Similar to retail but harder than fast food.

You take a test....but from what I hear nobody fails so long as they finish. The only wait to fail seems to be not completing it. I know some straight up dolts working at BMW.

Really...look at the population of upstate south Carolina then google how many people work for BMW.

They are hiring any and everybody. Every family has 4 people working at BMW.

2 people in the room in in right now....do or did work for BMW.

These are not exceptional people. Its no harder to do the shit they do than it is to fry chicken.

Now...some areas of the line require you be in shape. You get a physical. But those dudes for the most part need no skills.

They literally sweep for 2-3 hours a day because BMW wont let them stand around when the line is down. There are guys I know who got fired from Zaxbys who can hold down BMW work. For real. These guys cant keep a zaxbys station clean but they can find work at BMW.

They have so many people there they can find a spot for an idiot.

Some idiots just spot for fork lift drivers...they walk with flags. Still make 16 an hour.

Im not saying that's a problem. Im saying....it doesn't take any real skills.

[West-Side]

And I know its the poor people who will be paying the increases on the dollar menu. I almost mentioned in the post you quoted.

Its not gonna impact me. And the reason the poor eat so terribly is how cheap awful foods are. Frankly...I think too many kids are eating 5 dollar hot n ready pizzas as it is. If they were 7 dollars....8...I suspect a kid might get a actual meal cooked now and then.

But that's a whole other issue.

There's a whole other issue with your logic.
Many people are also poor because of their choices in life. Save money instead of spending your money on shoes, clothes, jewelry, strip clubs, drugs. There's a ton of poor people because they simply don't budget their money or aren't ambitious enough to work for a better life.

I know so many foreigners that came to this country on welfare and own a half million dollar house after 10 years, why? Because the work ethic is there, it's not some phenomenon either. American citizens who are poor are too busy complaining about a lack of opportunity instead of creating opportunity for themselves.

Europeans are generally far more hard working and prosper in this country far more frequently.

[Akrazotile]

And I know its the poor people who will be paying the increases on the dollar menu. I almost mentioned in the post you quoted.

Its not gonna impact me. And the reason the poor eat so terribly is how cheap awful foods are. Frankly...I think too many kids are eating 5 dollar hot n ready pizzas as it is. If they were 7 dollars....8...I suspect a kid might get a actual meal cooked now and then.

But that's a whole other issue.


But blaze, if wages go up, the disposable income for the kids will go up commensurately, as will the prices etc. It's just part of the inflation cycle. Nothing is going to change in the long term. A minimum wage job will always be a minimum wage job and always have the same connotations, and lifestyle limitations. And there will always be people who just cant accept and get over it.

This does nothing to change anything. Its just a politicial tool.

[NumberSix]

One of my best friends works in the paint shop at the Spartanburg BMW plant. He doesn't paint a ****ing thing. Perhaps someone does. I cant say ive asked for specifics. I know hes worked there in the paint shop for 8 years....and has never painted anything. I'll get more details beforei m all in on that though.
Wow. Just looked into. BMW actually does cheap out and use automated machines to paint certain models/paints. That's pretty disappointing.

[DeuceWallaces]

You'll also notice, the amount of those on welfare in Seattle (and parts of California with an overly inflated minimum wage) hasn't gone down. Why?

Because if you make too much, you lose your handouts.

All the law did was cost people jobs, and make others who make $16-$20 resentful that someone with little to no value in the workforce suddenly makes a comparable wage.

Lol, the law wasn't even in effect yet, and the author produced not a single statistic to support that closures are in fact rising nor did he control for any of the other economic drivers in the region that may be affecting restaurant closures if they are indeed closing at an increased rate.

It's entirely possible all those restaurants would have closed if minimum wage was lowered, because they have greater concerns than labor wage. Moreover, small businesses such as these have 7 years to implement the costs so there's no reason they would close in the next 1-2 years (or even immediately) if they're already profitable just because of a wage hike coming in 7 years.

[Kblaze8855]

You will never hear me defending the lazy....but I also wont claim that everyone poor is that because they lack work ethic.

I grew up poor as hell...I stayed poor for a while...and I got after it. But its a lot more than effort. Its direction....applying it in the right areas. A guy working his ass off to get a degree isn't working harder than a guy digging a ditch in the summer. Hes working smarter. Hes thinking long...and he likely has more help supporting himself in the short term than the guy busting his ass.

There are a thousand reasons the poor are poor. I don't think they justify not giving them a better shot. I mentioned the people I know working at BMW....only 1-2 of the dozens I know of are doing the right thing.

Half of them drive BMWS because of a program they offer after a year...where you can lease a year old BMW and have it deducted from your check without having to put money down or qualify credit wise.

These are young idiots blowing the money in strip clubs driving new BMWs "balling".

So no...im not saying giving a lazy idiot 15 bucks an hour makes them do whats right. Im saying....you cant let that keep you from trying to give them a chance. A guy making 8 an hour is gonna be poor forever....and raise his kids with low expectations. 7-8 an hour just puts you on a treadmill you can hardly escape.

And for the record I think 15 is high.....most places. I don't think its high in NYC.

And I think it should only apply to places with a certain number of locations. Cant make a mom and pop operation pay 15-16 an hour suddenly.

Mcdonalds?

**** mcdonalds.

[DeuceWallaces]

But blaze, if wages go up, the disposable income for the kids will go up commensurately, as will the prices etc. It's just part of the inflation cycle. Nothing is going to change in the long term. A minimum wage job will always be a minimum wage job and always have the same connotations, and lifestyle limitations. And there will always be people who just cant accept and get over it.

This does nothing to change anything. Its just a politicial tool.

I'd think you and your dad would be all for this. Might be able to finally support yourself. Surely you can live off 30K a year?

[West-Side]

You will never hear me defending the lazy....but I also wont claim that everyone poor is that because they lack work ethic.

I grew up poor as hell...I stayed poor for a while...and I got after it. But its a lot more than effort. Its direction....applying it in the right areas. A guy working his ass off to get a degree isn't working harder than a guy digging a ditch in the summer. Hes working smarter. Hes thinking long...and he likely has more help supporting himself in the short term than the guy busting his ass.

There are a thousand reasons the poor are poor. I don't think they justify not giving them a better shot. I mentioned the people I know working at BMW....only 1-2 of the dozens I know of are doing the right thing.

Half of them drive BMWS because of a program they offer after a year...where you can lease a year old BMW and have it deducted from your check without having to put money down or qualify credit wise.

These are young idiots blowing the money in strip clubs driving new BMWs "balling".

So no...im not saying giving a lazy idiot 15 bucks an hour makes them do whats right. Im saying....you cant let that keep you from trying to give them a chance. A guy making 8 an hour is gonna be poor forever....and raise his kids with low expectations. 7-8 an hour just puts you on a treadmill you can hardly escape.

And for the record I think 15 is high.....most places. I don't think its high in NYC.

And I think it should only apply to places with a certain number of locations. Cant make a mom and pop operation pay 15-16 an hour suddenly.

Mcdonalds?

**** mcdonalds.

I completely agree, 100% with everything you've said.
Especially the part about having direction in life.

Well said my friend.

[9erempiree]

fk off dude, there's a difference between assembling a vehicle and assembling a hamburger. nobody's squirting kethup up the exhaust for flavour. might as well give $30/hr to the guy who details your car.

:facepalm

No dummy.

My example still stands. I do consulting for $50 an hour and your so called 'less value' detailer gets paid $30 for just wiping cars down. So should I complain he's making $30? Nope...because I don't want to do it.

Like I said, I don't really care if they make $15 hour, the same as a secretary who is making $15 because the secretary would not want to bust her ass off behind a grill.

We need to stop thinking that fast food workers are incompetent because I can train people in the corporate world to do the same incompetent shit that also exists in firms and offices, the little things that the public don't know about.

[DeuceWallaces]

You will never hear me defending the lazy....but I also wont claim that everyone poor is that because they lack work ethic.

I grew up poor as hell...I stayed poor for a while...and I got after it. But its a lot more than effort. Its direction....applying it in the right areas. A guy working his ass off to get a degree isn't working harder than a guy digging a ditch in the summer. Hes working smarter. Hes thinking long...and he likely has more help supporting himself in the short term than the guy busting his ass.

There are a thousand reasons the poor are poor. I don't think they justify not giving them a better shot. I mentioned the people I know working at BMW....only 1-2 of the dozens I know of are doing the right thing.

Half of them drive BMWS because of a program they offer after a year...where you can lease a year old BMW and have it deducted from your check without having to put money down or qualify credit wise.

These are young idiots blowing the money in strip clubs driving new BMWs "balling".

So no...im not saying giving a lazy idiot 15 bucks an hour makes them do whats right. Im saying....you cant let that keep you from trying to give them a chance. A guy making 8 an hour is gonna be poor forever....and raise his kids with low expectations. 7-8 an hour just puts you on a treadmill you can hardly escape.

And for the record I think 15 is high.....most places. I don't think its high in NYC.

And I think it should only apply to places with a certain number of locations. Cant make a mom and pop operation pay 15-16 an hour suddenly.

Mcdonalds?

**** mcdonalds.

Good points. I think it's a misnomer conservatives think people in favor of raising the minimum wage feel everyone is some altruistic wonderful person who's a hard worker. There are lazy ****s everywhere; even rich ones. But as Blaze said, people who've grown up poor know you need some breaks, and breaks are really hard to come by on 8 dollars an hour at 2 jobs for 55 hours a week and no insurance.

[DCL]

the biggest beneficiaries to wage hikes are residential landlords.

[Kblaze8855]

Wow. Just looked into. BMW actually does cheap out and use automated machines to paint certain models/paints. That's pretty disappointing.


He makes $22 an hour to press a button then select the model from a drop-down list hit another button wait awhile and hit a button that dries it.

To the point of many here I will admit he acts like his job is hard and he doesn't get paid enough just because of the long hours. BMW does 12 hour swing shifts and you get 5 days off every 3 weeks. Its long hours but its good pay good benefits and half drive new BMWs. And they still act like they are getting ****ed because they don't get annual raises.

They have virtually no skills get paid quite well and still want more. If you gave fast food workers15 an hour they would still want more too that's just human nature. But you can't depend on the corporation to do the right thing. The way the law is written they are legally required to maximize profits no matter what.

[Akrazotile]

I'd think you and your dad would be all for this. Might be able to finally support yourself. Surely you can live off 30K a year?


Lol. Good one man. Nobody tells a funny joke like DeuceWallaces.

[longtime lurker]

No resentment.

I'll ask you a very simple question.

You own a sandwhich shop. Your restaurant operates with a 4% profit margin (check me if you want, but I am pretty damn close). Now, your labor costs (which make up about 1/3 of your costs) has doubled. What would you do?

Here are your choices:

1) Increase food prices 20-30% and pass the bill onto your customers, which is likely to kill your business. Your $8 sandwich now costs $12.

2) Fire people. Only way to keep the cost of labor down.

3) Do nothing, and lose money.

You have to pick one. Good luck.

Lol you're making it so simplistic. There are other options besides the 3 you've laid out. As someone mentioned you can reduce supplier costs, you can find a way to increase the amount of customers in your shop to improve the overall revenue, you can introduce high margin offerings. There are a lot more options you can explore than your simplistic view of things.

[NumberSix]

Good points. I think it's a misnomer conservatives think people in favor of raising the minimum wage feel everyone is some altruistic wonderful person who's a hard worker. There are lazy ****s everywhere; even rich ones. But as Blaze said, people who've grown up poor know you need some breaks, and breaks are really hard to come by on 8 dollars an hour at 2 jobs for 55 hours a week and no insurance.
It's not about whether people are lazy or hardworking. It's about a preference for letting the market decide value, not some government hacks decreeing it from some mountain top.

[RidonKs]

the biggest beneficiaries to wage hikes are residential landlords.
:applause:

where's that german guy, bruner laaftgraaden or whatever his name who was obsessed with land rents and marxism? he would make threads and go ham. presumably a gimmick but a smart one at least.

[DeuceWallaces]

It's not about whether people are lazy or hardworking. It's about a preference for letting the market decide value, not some government hacks decreeing it from some mountain top.

May be what it's about to you.

But not to many others.

[NumberSix]

May be what it's about to you.

But not to many others.
Fair enough.

[DeuceWallaces]

Lol. Good one man. Nobody tells a funny joke like DeuceWallaces.

Not really a joke. Seriously, shouldn't you be all for this? This type of legislation is directed towards increasing the quality of life for the low skill labor force.

We all want to see a happier and healthier Starface.

[DeuceWallaces]

It's not about whether people are lazy or hardworking. It's about a preference for letting the market decide value, not some government hacks decreeing it from some mountain top.

And to that point, I think there's a fair amount of evidence as to the detriments of the free market if you turn back the clock about 100 years.

[Akrazotile]

Not really a joke. Seriously, shouldn't you be all for this? This type of legislation is directed towards increasing the quality of life for the low skill labor force.

We all want to see a happier and healthier Starface.



:roll: :cheers:

[NumberSix]

And to that point, I think there's a fair amount of evidence as to the detriments of the free market if you turn back the clock about 100 years.
What evidence is that?

I hope you're not referring to the depression. I know people like to mindlessly make that strange claim sometimes. The idea that that was somehow a result of free market economics would suggest a severe lack of historical knowledge.

[ThePhantomCreep]

What evidence is that?

I hope you're not referring to the depression. I know people like to mindlessly make that strange claim sometimes. The idea that that was somehow a result of free market economics would suggest a severe lack of historical knowledge.

They were part of the labor force not even 100 years ago:
http://www.ourdocuments.gov/document_data/document_images/doc_059b_big.jpg

The idea that government intervention is bad for free market capitalism is BS. In fact, many of the goodies business owners take advantage of--patents and copyrights, bankruptcy protection, banking regulation and insurance, property rights, commercial transaction laws, etc, are provided by Uncle Sam.

Funny, I never hear the Waltons bitch about the myriad of ways the government protects their company. Raise the minimum wage and it's, "OMGZ, stay out of it, let the market decide!" :oldlol:

[UK2K]

Lol you're making it so simplistic. There are other options besides the 3 you've laid out. As someone mentioned you can reduce supplier costs, you can find a way to increase the amount of customers in your shop to improve the overall revenue, you can introduce high margin offerings. There are a lot more options you can explore than your simplistic view of things.

I bet your suppliers will renegotiate with you for lower prices, who are also probably paying a higher wage for their employees now.

Increasing customers requires investment (money) unless you just plan on wishing them into the door. If it were that easy, everyone would do it.

Feel free to give me a REALISTIC option.

[UK2K]

Good points. I think it's a misnomer conservatives think people in favor of raising the minimum wage feel everyone is some altruistic wonderful person who's a hard worker. There are lazy ****s everywhere; even rich ones. But as Blaze said, people who've grown up poor know you need some breaks, and breaks are really hard to come by on 8 dollars an hour at 2 jobs for 55 hours a week and no insurance.

I grew up as poor if not more poor than anyone in this thread, I guarantee it.

I've got pictures of us in our apartment with no furniture eating peanut butter and crackers for lunch. That's poor. When you have four people living off a cops salary 20 years ago, there isn't much to go around.

Poor isn't having an IPhone and rims and cable TV and high speed internet like our 'poor'.

Its not about that though, its about the government artificially inflating the value of workers who aren't worth what they are paid. A business can't operate like that.

Soon, though, automated machines will replace burger flippers (within 6 - 10 years or so) and this discussion can be over.

[kNIOKAS]

I grew up as poor if not more poor than anyone in this thread, I guarantee it.

I've got pictures of us in our apartment with no furniture eating peanut butter and crackers for lunch. That's poor. When you have four people living off a cops salary 20 years ago, there isn't much to go around.

Poor isn't having an IPhone and rims and cable TV and high speed internet like our 'poor'.
Poor isn't not having stuff, it's not being socially relevant and having less stuff. If you only judge the wealth by iPhones, you could make a case that you're richer than Rockfeller, since he didn't have a mobile phone nor a car that could go over 150 km/h or satelite tv. Hell, you're richer than any of the ancient kings that have ever lived.

Wealth therefore is a social construct first and foremost. You cannot think of it as of two farmers planting corn.

[UK2K]

Poor isn't not having stuff, it's not being socially relevant and having less stuff. If you only judge the wealth by iPhones, you could make a case that you're richer than Rockfeller, since he didn't have a mobile phone nor a car that could go over 150 km/h or satelite tv. Hell, you're richer than any of the ancient kings that have ever lived.

Wealth therefore is a social construct first and foremost. You cannot think of it as of two farmers planting corn.

We aren't talking about 100 years ago, we are talking about now.

How many of the 'poor' in this country do you think have new cell phones and cable tv? Xbox Ones? High speed internet?

Whatever your answer is, its too many.

Enjoying non-essential treats means you have enough.

If you were really poor, you wouldnt be spending money on things that you dont need to survive.

Soon 16 year olds will make as much as people with bachelors degrees, because the government mandates it.

[bdreason]

Some areas of the country are already paying $15/h minimum wage. Plenty of areas in S.F. that pay $15/h out of necessity, because employees couldn't even afford to live there otherwise.

[embersyc]

Seattle has $15 minimum wage.

[kNIOKAS]

We aren't talking about 100 years ago, we are talking about now.

How many of the 'poor' in this country do you think have new cell phones and cable tv? Xbox Ones? High speed internet?

Whatever your answer is, its too many.

Enjoying non-essential treats means you have enough.

If you were really poor, you wouldnt be spending money on things that you dont need to survive.

Soon 16 year olds will make as much as people with bachelors degrees, because the government mandates it.
I wasn't saying it directly, I guess it's why it flew over your head.

Things that you are mentioning are the cultural neccessity of your time. To not have them in many ways means to be out of the loop. The exile is the punishment that people of the past took very seriously, being a hipster not having an iPhone or a game consule not-between-hipsters is a rather isolating experience. It's wrong to judge a person in a vacuum - the people around him dictate the most of what he is. Peer pressure and societal pressure like marketing determines a great deal of what type of stuff will be perceived as status symbols - that is actually way more important than necessities like food.

Also, people are not rational in determining their neccessities either way. They are highly emotional, short-term-oriented and slaves to their habbits.

I don't get how people could worry that uneducated people will make as much money as the educated - I think that could only make you feel happy that human beings are for once treated well, and that educated people have even higher ceiling from that point. Worry about who is making too much money at the top, not at the bottom. We are as strong as our weakest link, I wish only the biggest pay for the poorest and least educated people.

[ThePhantomCreep]

We aren't talking about 100 years ago, we are talking about now.

How many of the 'poor' in this country do you think have new cell phones and cable tv? Xbox Ones? High speed internet?

Whatever your answer is, its too many.

Enjoying non-essential treats means you have enough.

If you were really poor, you wouldnt be spending money on things that you dont need to survive.

Soon 16 year olds will make as much as people with bachelors degrees, because the government mandates it.

A) You're totally overestimating the amount of disposable income a person living in poverty has. IIRC, they have less disposable cash vs their counterparts 40 years ago. This holds true for every income tier outside the super wealthy (they're richer than ever).

B) Cheaper technology isn't an excuse to keep people locked in poverty, that's a non-starter. 200 years ago the richest of the rich lived in conditions that would be considered unsanitary today, so what?

$9/hr in an expensive cities like New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles is insane.

[Akrazotile]

Poor isn't not having stuff, it's not being socially relevant and having less stuff. If you only judge the wealth by iPhones, you could make a case that you're richer than Rockfeller, since he didn't have a mobile phone nor a car that could go over 150 km/h or satelite tv. Hell, you're richer than any of the ancient kings that have ever lived.

Wealth therefore is a social construct first and foremost. You cannot think of it as of two farmers planting corn.


If there are so many poor people who are willing to do things the right way and are seeking impactful, realistic changes to their situation, then they should be able to do that in any democracy with the sheer size of their numbers, right? I mean it's not like they dont have access to social assistance already. Theyre not working 90 hours a week. They have at least a little time to spare to organize and brainstorm and figure out how to improve their prospects, right?

I'm curious what is the reason you are so obsessed with white knighting on their behalf. Surely you are not poor if youve got this much time to post on ISH.

What is the primary purpose for you attempting to play All Knowing Social Decider Referee in the affairs of the rest of society? Is it for the psychological fulfilment of rallying all the people who make less than you, and taking down those who make more than you? Bc surely you arent poor, surely you would not claim to be rich, but surely you have much more than others yet share the absolute minimum possible of what you have with them.

Your incessant championing is really more of a self-satisfied vehicle for personal recognition and status than anything else, rigt?

[Akrazotile]

Some areas of the country are already paying $15/h minimum wage. Plenty of areas in S.F. that pay $15/h out of necessity, because employees couldn't even afford to live there otherwise.


Which is fine, bc thats the reality of the market situation there. They dont need any government coercion to recognize they have to pay a certain amount to attract enough employees in their area. Thats how it's supposed to work.

[NumberSix]

The idea that government intervention is bad for free market capitalism is BS.
What is free market capitalism? :confusedshrug:


In fact, many of the goodies business owners take advantage of--patents and copyrights, bankruptcy protection, banking regulation and insurance, property rights, commercial transaction laws, etc, are provided by Uncle Sam.

I can't say I'm surprised that you don't understand the difference between government enforcing contract law/running the legal system and private citizen participation in the market.

This is a sports forum, so I'll put in terms you can understand. Citizens are the players. Government is the refs. The refs enforce the rules and let the players play. The refs shouldn't be deciding which player should take what amount of shots, how many minutes people should play or how many gays or Filipinos should be on each roster.

The rules these refs should be enforcing are very simple. Enforce contract law, oversee the nations monetary system, run the courts, etc... Basic stuff.

[kNIOKAS]

If there are so many poor people who are willing to do things the right way and are seeking impactful, realistic changes to their situation, then they should be able to do that in any democracy with the sheer size of their numbers, right? I mean it's not like they dont have access to social assistance already. Theyre not working 90 hours a week. They have at least a little time to spare to organize and brainstorm and figure out how to improve their prospects, right?

I'm curious what is the reason you are so obsessed with white knighting on their behalf. Surely you are not poor if youve got this much time to post on ISH.

What is the primary purpose for you attempting to play All Knowing Social Decider Referee in the affairs of the rest of society? Is it for the psychological fulfilment of rallying all the people who make less than you, and taking down those who make more than you? Bc surely you arent poor, surely you would not claim to be rich, but surely you have much more than others yet share the absolute minimum possible of what you have with them.

Your incessant championing is really more of a self-satisfied vehicle for personal recognition and status than anything else, rigt?
To not answer your question,

I just don't think that people should not be seen as a community, I don't think that everything works as a market, I don't think there ever was supposed to be a free market, and I don't think that the market is the most efficient means. I also don't think people are rational informed decision makers, and that they are free to rebuild themselves and restart their lives at any given point. I've studied psychology, I know that to not be the case for certain. Etc., etc.

To answer your question,

I'm sick of uneducated ****s like you trying to paint the world to be simplier than it actually is.

[kNIOKAS]

What is free market capitalism? :confusedshrug:


I can't say I'm surprised that you don't understand the difference between government enforcing contract law/running the legal system and private citizen participation in the market.

This is a sports forum, so I'll put in terms you can understand. Citizens are the players. Government is the refs. The refs enforce the rules and let the players play. The refs shouldn't be deciding which player should take what amount of shots, how many minutes people should play or how many gays or Filipinos should be on each roster.

The rules these refs should be enforcing are very simple. Enforce contract law, oversee the nations monetary system, run the courts, etc... Basic stuff.
Except that is exactly regulating the market.

You have to know that you're dealing with human systems, and it is insane to expect them to work as un-human-like entity.

The government is and will be subjective. It will be prone to outside pressures. Since outside pressures wants the government to regulate the market on their behalf - that is free market players are incentivized to make the market not free - it will skew the market. Therefore there simply cannot be an impartial enforcement of free market laws, since they only benefit the consumers and never the powerful parties. It's a self-destructing system, and to advocate it as if just that government cannot get it right is an absolute travesty. You stupid shit.

[Droid101]

No fictional sandwich shop in the world is running on 4% profit margin. None. Zip. Zero.

[NumberSix]

Except that is exactly regulating the market.
No, that's enforcing contract law. Courts enforce contracts for a reason. Otherwise, the only way to make people honor their deals is the way organized crime does. The government doesn't enforce their contracts, so they have to use violence to make people afraid to not honor the deals.


The government is and will be subjective. It will be prone to outside pressures. Since outside pressures wants the government to regulate the market on their behalf - that is free market players are incentivized to make the market not free - it will skew the market. Therefore there simply cannot be an impartial enforcement of free market laws, since they only benefit the consumers and never the powerful parties. It's a self-destructing system, and to advocate it as if just that government cannot get it right is an absolute travesty. You stupid shit.
Yes. That is an absolute truth. That is exactly why government should not have any authority to regulate the market. Can't bribe a regulator, if there aren't any.

[UK2K]

A) You're totally overestimating the amount of disposable income a person living in poverty has. IIRC, they have less disposable cash vs their counterparts 40 years ago. This holds true for every income tier outside the super wealthy (they're richer than ever).

B) Cheaper technology isn't an excuse to keep people locked in poverty, that's a non-starter. 200 years ago the richest of the rich lived in conditions that would be considered unsanitary today, so what?

$9/hr in an expensive cities like New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles is insane.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/20/obama-looks-to-ban-social-security-recipients-from-owning-guns/

Here we have President Obama.

"The Obama administration wants to keep people collecting Social Security benefits from owning guns if it is determined they are unable to manage their own affairs, the Los Angeles Times reported."

So if its determine you cant mange your own affairs, you cant own a gun.

Now why cant we do this for everyone else? If you cant manage your own affairs, you aren't allowed high speed internet. You arent allowed a brand new cell phone.

Easy come, easy go. If you dont work for shit, you have no problem blowing the money you get on non-essential items. Similar to when people win the lottery, they blow all their money, when people hand you free shit every single month, you just dont care to spend it. A $400 ihpone and $80 a month for cable and internet is not cheaper technology. Those are called luxuries where I come from.

And again, we aren't talking 40 years ago, we are talking RIGHT ****ING NOW. Right now. If you cant manage your own affairs (pay your bills on time) you shouldnt be buying non-essential shit.

Now, I would never back legislation that allows government to manage your spending habits, but its something to ponder about when the guys who work in our company warehouse making $8.75 an hour driver nicer cars than I do.

[UK2K]

No fictional sandwich shop in the world is running on 4% profit margin. None. Zip. Zero.
The majority of restaurants operate on a similar profit margin.


Full-service restaurants at all levels spent about 32 percent of each dollar on the cost of food and beverages, 33 percent on salaries and wages, and from 5 percent to 6 percent on restaurant occupancy costs. Profit margins, however, varied according to the cost of the average check per person. Those with checks under $15 showed a profit of 3 percent. Those with checks from $15 to $24.99 boasted the highest profit margin at 3.5 percent. Finally, those with checks of $25 and over had the lowest profits, at 1.8 percent.

Again, you are wrong and display your stupidity. And again, I put you in check.

[knickballer]

Wouldn't this policy just help out the corporations/franchises as they are already churning in record profits while the small family owned shop will suffer because they are probably running thin profits?

I'm all for increasing the min wage but there's going to be ripple effects. The franchises are still going to make the same amount of money as they'll just cut the hours and hire less people to get near their projected sales . I guess it's good for the employees as they are making more but bad because they'll be expected to do more and have hours cut/potentially laid off.

But either way $15 still isn't liveable in the NY Metro area. Anyways I don't think the politicians care about the effects all they care about is short term gains as they just want to get re-elected again. A flaw of the current system.

[Akrazotile]

To not answer your question,

I just don't think that people should not be seen as a community, I don't think that everything works as a market, I don't think there ever was supposed to be a free market, and I don't think that the market is the most efficient means. I also don't think people are rational informed decision makers, and that they are free to rebuild themselves and restart their lives at any given point. I've studied psychology, I know that to not be the case for certain. Etc., etc.

To answer your question,

I'm sick of uneducated ****s like you trying to paint the world to be simplier than it actually is.


nicolascagelaughing.gif

[UK2K]

Wouldn't this policy just help out the corporations/franchises as they are already churning in record profits while the small family owned shop will suffer because they are probably running thin profits?

I'm all for increasing the min wage but there's going to be ripple effects. The franchises are still going to make the same amount of money as they'll just cut the hours and hire less people to get near their projected sales . I guess it's good for the employees as they are making more but bad because they'll be expected to do more and have hours cut/potentially laid off.

But either way $15 still isn't liveable in the NY Metro area. Anyways I don't think the politicians care about the effects all they care about is short term gains as they just want to get re-elected again. A flaw of the current system.

That is 100% what it will do.

McDonalds doesnt care to pay the wages. Small, locally owned business will go under, after they lay off their workforce and force the remaining employees to work two jobs instead of one.

Which is fine for many, because as I posted earlier, many dont want a higher pay because they lose their freebies.

Its better to make $18,000 a year and get $30,000 worth of free shit than it is to make $25,000 and get nothing.

[kNIOKAS]

No, that's enforcing contract law. Courts enforce contracts for a reason. Otherwise, the only way to make people honor their deals is the way organized crime does. The government doesn't enforce their contracts, so they have to use violence to make people afraid to not honor the deals.


Yes. That is an absolute truth. That is exactly why government should not have any authority to regulate the market. Can't bribe a regulator, if there aren't any.
Well fi you can't see the contradiction in your own two paragraphs I don't know what medication would make you to.

[kNIOKAS]

That is 100% what it will do.

McDonalds doesnt care to pay the wages. Small, locally owned business will go under, after they lay off their workforce and force the remaining employees to work two jobs instead of one.

Which is fine for many, because as I posted earlier, many dont want a higher pay because they lose their freebies.

Its better to make $18,000 a year and get $30,000 worth of free shit than it is to make $25,000 and get nothing.
No wonder you were poor :lol

[UK2K]

Well fi you can't see the contradiction in your own two paragraphs I don't know what medication would make you to.

So you're one of those people who think 'less government' means 'no government'.

Cause we all know, it can't be somewhere in between.

[Akrazotile]

kNIOKAS






http://replygif.net/130

[UK2K]

No wonder you were poor :lol

Yep, there was nobody accepting handouts in my family.

How much better my childhood could have been.

[DeuceWallaces]

I grew up as poor if not more poor than anyone in this thread, I guarantee it.

I've got pictures of us in our apartment with no furniture eating peanut butter and crackers for lunch. That's poor. When you have four people living off a cops salary 20 years ago, there isn't much to go around.

Poor isn't having an IPhone and rims and cable TV and high speed internet like our 'poor'.

Its not about that though, its about the government artificially inflating the value of workers who aren't worth what they are paid. A business can't operate like that.

Soon, though, automated machines will replace burger flippers (within 6 - 10 years or so) and this discussion can be over.

All of that is irrelevant.

[DeuceWallaces]

What evidence is that?

I hope you're not referring to the depression. I know people like to mindlessly make that strange claim sometimes. The idea that that was somehow a result of free market economics would suggest a severe lack of historical knowledge.

Jesus christ. Have you graduated high school yet? Please tell me you're 15. You must be.

[kNIOKAS]

So you're one of those people who think 'less government' means 'no government'.

Cause we all know, it can't be somewhere in between.
Well, for one I refuse to speak in terms of "how much government". It's like asking how much spice - depends on what are you making, and what for. Government is a tool, and it is to be used when appropriate.

I think what we need to do first is to address the contradictions of this prevailing free-market doctrine, and internalize it. Because no matter how clear it is that in certain times a minimum wage is needed in order to raise up the level of living in the society, people will crop up saying stuff "but this will make moms and pops close, and big corporations will only gain more". Which has truth to it, yet, it still doesn't address the problem - how do we take care of the people that are least well-off?


Yep, there was nobody accepting handouts in my family.

How much better my childhood could have been.
Well it's a phenomenon how the poor people have been indoctrinated into defending the interests of the rich people, because of "free market" and other fairy tales like that. That's what I keen to study one day


:cletus:

[knickballer]

Well, for one I refuse to speak in terms of "how much government". It's like asking how much spice - depends on what are you making, and what for. Government is a tool, and it is to be used when appropriate.

I think what we need to do first is to address the contradictions of this prevailing free-market doctrine, and internalize it. Because no matter how clear it is that in certain times a minimum wage is needed in order to raise up the level of living in the society, people will crop up saying stuff "but this will make moms and pops close, and big corporations will only gain more". Which has truth to it, yet, it still doesn't address the problem - how do we take care of the people that are least well-off?


Well it's a phenomenon how the poor people have been indoctrinated into defending the interests of the rich people, because of "free market" and other fairy tales like that. That's what I keen to study one day


:cletus:

One way to go after these corporations and making them actually pay their taxes. Federal tax rate for corporations is around 30-35% but many of the multinational corporations pay a fraction of that through the use of setting up subsidiaries in tax havens and abusing the tax laws. No politican will dare to speak about this as the corporations are funding them and they have the best lawyers/accountants. There's a significant loss in tax revenue while you're average middle class joe can't escape the taxman.

[Akrazotile]

One way to go after these corporations and making them actually pay their taxes. Federal tax rate for corporations is around 30-35% but many of the multinational corporations pay a fraction of that through the use of setting up subsidiaries in tax havens and abusing the tax laws. No politican will dare to speak about this as the corporations are funding them and they have the best lawyers/accountants. There's a significant loss in tax revenue while you're average middle class joe can't escape the taxman.


This.


There will always be rich, and always be poor, until the day we all turned into cloud-connected unisex robots (which is legit happening and not too far off).

There is no constructable system you can create that will mitigate the basic supply and demand economics of labor. kNiokas is still chasing those unrealistic dreams on his quest to come to terms with an unfair world, and I can only HOPE hes 20 years old or so bc thats the age you typically go through that phase.

There is no actual systematic "solution" to poverty. It's a product of human nature and numbers. So anything kNiokas is saying can basically be dismissed out of hand. Those arent even discussions worth having.

However, tax reform, and making sure that people and businesses legitimately pay what they owe, is a realistic and worthwhile political pursuit. But difficult, for the reasons mentioned in the quoted post. Thats an area where people with less means have to stop watching Springer and TMZ, and get off their ass and go to their politicians and threaten to take their vote elsewhere. But most of those people dont vote anywy. The "masses" have so much dormant, unused power. Nobody can MAKE them use it. As long as they get just enough in handouts to stay comfortable in front of the television, thats whats gonna happen.

[TripleA]

Isn't the point of minimum wage is about paying people that are just starting working or lack skills like high schoolers or immigrants. If you work on minimum wage isn't the point that your are replaceable because any person can replace you.

[TripleA]

Politicians have corporations backing them so they cannot point out there flaws for fear financial backlash.

[christian1923]

there won't be anymore cashiers soon.

[NumberSix]

Jesus christ. Have you graduated high school yet? Please tell me you're 15. You must be.
Or, unlike yourself, some of us actually have knowledge of history.

I don't know what field you're in, but it's clearly nothing to do with the financial world. Probably some "social justice" field.

Here's a few things you can research...

-Federal reserve policy/actions at the time
-both US and Britain regarding their gold reserves at the time
-the Smoot-Hawley act
-the econmy shifting from agriculture to industry

If you're actually interested in learning and not just parroting "Durr, it was the free market" and pushing an anti "capitalism" narrative, this should get you started.

[RidonKs]

i like kblazes idea of tackling the franchises specifically. supply chain restaurants need to go. let real people make our food, not ****ing scientists.

[RidonKs]

Some areas of the country are already paying $15/h minimum wage. Plenty of areas in S.F. that pay $15/h out of necessity, because employees couldn't even afford to live there otherwise.
this gets to the root of the problem. money in the hands of people who will spend it on goods and services they prefer, not out of desperation to salvage every last nickel, but out of informed decision making. you know, homo economicus.

[RidonKs]

There will always be rich, and always be poor, until the day we all turned into cloud-connected unisex robots (which is legit happening and not too far off).
this seems like a wild flight in imagination

[9erempiree]

Or, unlike yourself, some of us actually have knowledge of history.

I don't know what field you're in, but it's clearly nothing to do with the financial world. Probably some "social justice" field.

Here's a few things you can research...

-Federal reserve policy/actions at the time
-both US and Britain regarding their gold reserves at the time
-the Smoot-Hawley act
-the econmy shifting from agriculture to industry

If you're actually interested in learning and not just parroting "Durr, it was the free market" and pushing an anti "capitalism" narrative, this should get you started.

Don't waste your time. You think some new age hippie like him know anything about the business world?

[DonD13]

http://www.sacu.org/pics/G002.jpg

[Lebron23]

Virgil Can work on McDonald instead of begging for attentions.

[kNIOKAS]

This.


There will always be rich, and always be poor, until the day we all turned into cloud-connected unisex robots (which is legit happening and not too far off).

There is no constructable system you can create that will mitigate the basic supply and demand economics of labor. kNiokas is still chasing those unrealistic dreams on his quest to come to terms with an unfair world, and I can only HOPE hes 20 years old or so bc thats the age you typically go through that phase.

There is no actual systematic "solution" to poverty. It's a product of human nature and numbers. So anything kNiokas is saying can basically be dismissed out of hand. Those arent even discussions worth having.

However, tax reform, and making sure that people and businesses legitimately pay what they owe, is a realistic and worthwhile political pursuit. But difficult, for the reasons mentioned in the quoted post. Thats an area where people with less means have to stop watching Springer and TMZ, and get off their ass and go to their politicians and threaten to take their vote elsewhere. But most of those people dont vote anywy. The "masses" have so much dormant, unused power. Nobody can MAKE them use it. As long as they get just enough in handouts to stay comfortable in front of the television, thats whats gonna happen.
Uh, well this has glimpses of right and wrong, but I'm still curious how do you think.

It is becoming apparent that wealth distribution through jobs (at least as it is now) is becoming unsustainable. Too big part of the workforce can actually be replaced by machinery, therefore too big part of the society could actually become unemployed. The system will need an overhaul soon. So this about supply and demand of labour.

There is definitely many systematic solutions to poverty. The first steps don't even have to be that - like knickballer and now you mentioned, the huge progress would be to effectively carry out programs that are already in place, for example, collect tax money. That is impossible right now because of the lobbying power - the rich rather would pay some money to create loopholes, rather than pay more in tax. This also comes with the selfish, individualistic mindset that says "oh it's supply and demand, I cannot make a value judgement and do the right thing". Yes, you/they can.

It is not because masses cannot use their power, it's because they're brainwashed into the same shit that you are believing in - that people should be selfish and strive for profits. If you knew the game theory, you'd see how that does not result in people making the best decision for themselves and society. It leads to the opposite. This is what you are.

[RidonKs]

Uh, well this has glimpses of right and wrong, but I'm still curious how do you think.

It is becoming apparent that wealth distribution through jobs (at least as it is now) is becoming unsustainable. Too big part of the workforce can actually be replaced by machinery, therefore too big part of the society could actually become unemployed. The system will need an overhaul soon. So this about supply and demand of labour.

There is definitely many systematic solutions to poverty. The first steps don't even have to be that - like knickballer and now you mentioned, the huge progress would be to effectively carry out programs that are already in place, for example, collect tax money. That is impossible right now because of the lobbying power - the rich rather would pay some money to create loopholes, rather than pay more in tax. This also comes with the selfish, individualistic mindset that says "oh it's supply and demand, I cannot make a value judgement and do the right thing". Yes, you/they can.

It is not because masses cannot use their power, it's because they're brainwashed into the same shit that you are believing in - that people should be selfish and strive for profits. If you knew the game theory, you'd see how that does not result in people making the best decision for themselves and society. It leads to the opposite. This is what you are.
great post

the new democratic party, a union based leftist party in canada is calling for universal childcare for the working poor who cannot afford to pay somebody ENOUGH to look after their kids. i emphasize ENOUGH because of the usual kickback, that the parents are already paying for wifi and iphones and computer games and library cards or whatever the **** they say... but when you're tight on money, you'll short on quality to get quantity. meaning you'll buy shitty products so you have extra cash for other shitty--->more expensive products you want. so either they don't have anybody to look watch their kids after school and of course there is the possibility that they work two jobs. not exactly uncommon in this day and age of temporary placements and part time nonsense. plus seasonal gigs and industry breaks.

when it comes to hiring a sitter, she might not be the best money can buy. high school sitters are nice for teenagers, but children under ten need structured guidance as well as fun.

universal childcare is probably the single biggest impact policy you can imagine at this point in time, within reasonable expectations. that would change so many people's lives.

thomas mulcair ad (http://www.ndp.ca/childcare)

the ndp has surged the past half decade as the liberals (historically the governing party) has fallen apart. pretty typical in tough economic times that the masses would turn to an alternative. the ndp won quebec in the last federal election, they won alberta provincially a few months ago, they had a few years where i live several years ago. manitoba has been governed marvelously for a while now and it's paying off. i have my own criticisms about their collaborationist ethic, giving in on crucial demands too easily, but then our system is less easy to manipulate than yours when you aren't in power... as opposed to the 40% philibuster :lol

but who in god's name chose that music

[Smoke117]

I have to disagree with the OP.

Why is it end of the world? I think we need to stop this stigma about fast food workers. If the company is willing to pay $15 hour, instead of complaining, people should should work for them.

These fast food chains make billions off cheap labor. It is only right to pay their workers.

Woah...the town imbecile actually said something that...made sense. I hope this doesn't mean the apocalypse is coming and hell is freezing over...I'm seriously petrified guys...

[Hawker]

i like kblazes idea of tackling the franchises specifically. supply chain restaurants need to go. let real people make our food, not ****ing scientists.

:oldlol:

[ThePhantomCreep]

What is free market capitalism? :confusedshrug:


I can't say I'm surprised that you don't understand the difference between government enforcing contract law/running the legal system and private citizen participation in the market.

This is a sports forum, so I'll put in terms you can understand. Citizens are the players. Government is the refs. The refs enforce the rules and let the players play. The refs shouldn't be deciding which player should take what amount of shots, how many minutes people should play or how many gays or Filipinos should be on each roster.

The rules these refs should be enforcing are very simple. Enforce contract law, oversee the nations monetary system, run the courts, etc... Basic stuff.

Uh, if the government is analogous to anything, it's the league office in New York. Lol @ your dopey analogy.

Governments don

[9erempiree]

Uh, if the government is analogous to anything, it's the league office in New York. Lol @ your dopey analogy.

Governments don’t “intrude” on free markets; governments organize and maintain them. Markets aren’t “free” of rules; the rules define them.

I would hate to see what the free market would look like if it were actually free. Imagine no regulations on who are what can be owned, on what terms they can be owned, and in what conditions? It would be a complete nightmare.

I have to 100% agree with this because over time I think people are forgetting that the government isn't invading our free market.

Did people forget what a monopoly was? Governments intervene and prevent monopolies happening with such entities like energy companies and more recently Microsoft, which was a long time ago.

The rules were written way before people started becoming activists and blaming the government for interfering. Heck, monopoly might be a word that is extinct today. Too bad they don't regulate cellular phone devices.

[SuperPippen]

Or, unlike yourself, some of us actually have knowledge of history.

I don't know what field you're in, but it's clearly nothing to do with the financial world. Probably some "social justice" field.

Here's a few things you can research...

-Federal reserve policy/actions at the time
-both US and Britain regarding their gold reserves at the time
-the Smoot-Hawley act
-the econmy shifting from agriculture to industry

If you're actually interested in learning and not just parroting "Durr, it was the free market" and pushing an anti "capitalism" narrative, this should get you started.

You are so completely ****ing clueless about every topic you choose to speak your mind about, it ****ing baffles me. I honestly have no clue how someone like you has been able to go through life with such complete confidence in your buffoonery.

The school system tragically failed you.

[UK2K]

Well, for one I refuse to speak in terms of "how much government". It's like asking how much spice - depends on what are you making, and what for. Government is a tool, and it is to be used when appropriate.

I think what we need to do first is to address the contradictions of this prevailing free-market doctrine, and internalize it. Because no matter how clear it is that in certain times a minimum wage is needed in order to raise up the level of living in the society, people will crop up saying stuff "but this will make moms and pops close, and big corporations will only gain more". Which has truth to it, yet, it still doesn't address the problem - how do we take care of the people that are least well-off?


Well it's a phenomenon how the poor people have been indoctrinated into defending the interests of the rich people, because of "free market" and other fairy tales like that. That's what I keen to study one day


:cletus:

I'm not poor now, but I'm certainly not rich. I have as much now as I have worked for. Could I have gone to an Ivy league school and been a doctor? I probably could have, my test scores were high enough at one point.

But I didn't, because I chose not to.

There was no barrier preventing me from doing so, it was a conscious choice, and I have no problem with it. If some want to work their asses off in the pursuit of millions, they are more than welcome to, and I wish everyone the best of luck in getting rich, but it was never a goal of mine to become rich, and I don't have a problem with others having more than I do, like many on this board seem to have.

Even still, I know basic economics well enough to know that, generally, you reap what you sow. If you work hard, really work hard, the chances are very high that you won't be working at McDonalds the rest of your life. You can bank on that.